"This Economy"

[dcny]

Come on....Ron Paul???? THE SAME Ron Paul that all the 9/11 was an inside job people were standing with, and he wouldn't deny it????

Where do you get your information? Must be the MSM. They never missed an opportunity to ignore or ridicule Dr. Paul during the campaign.

What I heard Congressman Paul say was there were many mistakes made by our government. Information was not shared between agencies. He did not feel that the government should be investigating itself to determine where mistakes were made.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul200.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihCP3cfS88E

 

[benbo]

Where do you get your information? Must be the MSM. They never missed an opportunity to ignore or ridicule Dr. Paul during the campaign.
What I heard Congressman Paul say was there were many mistakes made by our government. Information was not shared between agencies. He did not feel that the government should be investigating itself to determine where mistakes were made.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul200.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihCP3cfS88E

I like a lot of things about Dr. Paul, but some things I don't.

Ron Paul is not a "Truther" but he made frequent appearances on the Alex Jones show. That, along with the perception that he blamed 9-11 on US foreign policy (from that debate where Rudy called him out), led to people thinking that. Although I completely disagree with his notion that US foreign policy is to blame for the 9-11 attack except very tangentially (especially after reading the Looming Tower), at least that is an arguable position. Al Qaeda certainly used US presence in Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian situation as an excuse, but I don't believe that was their real underlying rationale.

But, like a lot of conspiracy theories, The Truther position is sort of nutty to me. I accept the various studies, including the Popular Mechanics analysis.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I like a lot of things about Dr. Paul, but some things I don't.
Ron Paul is not a "Truther" but he made frequent appearances on the Alex Jones show. That, along with the perception that he blamed 9-11 on US foreign policy (from that debate where Rudy called him out), led to people thinking that. Although I completely disagree with his notion that US foreign policy is to blame for the 9-11 attack except very tangentially (especially after reading the Looming Tower), at least that is an arguable position. Al Qaeda certainly used US presence in Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian situation as an excuse, but I don't believe that was their real underlying rationale.

But, like a lot of conspiracy theories, The Truther position is sort of nutty to me. I accept the various studies, including the Popular Mechanics analysis.

So you don't think that US foreign policy, namely our support of Israel vs. the Palestinians, had anything to do with our low reputation with radical Muslims? What, then, do you propose as an alternative, Mr. Giuliani? That debate when Rudy blew a gasket removed any respect I had for that *****. So, do you think that Muslims are just jealous of our freedoms, as Mr. Bush proposed?

 

[benbo]

So you don't think that US foreign policy, namely our support of Israel vs. the Palestinians, had anything to do with our low reputation with radical Muslims? What, then, do you propose as an alternative, Mr. Giuliani? That debate when Rudy blew a gasket removed any respect I had for that *****. So, do you think that Muslims are just jealous of our freedoms, as Mr. Bush proposed?

/Arguing with you is tiresome so this is it. I at least have a nuanced opinion on things. I'll explain what I base my thoughts on. I doubt you're interested but I'll do it once.

First of all, do you even read what people write? I said it was arguable and tangentially relevant, but I still believe that radical Islam has the ultimate goal of spreading Sharia law throughout the world. Why? Because that's what they say. And that's what they are doing - in Africa, Arabia, Southeast Asia, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Not to mention the growth of this ideology in Europe, where they riot if you draw a cartoon about Mohammed.

Radical Islam and the roots of Al Qaeda date back to the writings of Sayyid Qutb in the late 1940s. He explicitly stated that he hated our decandence and way of life. Ayman Al Zawahiri was an early follower of his, and agreed with this. This predates the end of the British mandate or the UN separation and certainly predates any Isreali expansion or concern about Palestinians. Osama Bin Laden came late to even worrying one whit about the Palestinians. His main beef was always our presence on the Arabian Peninsula. But the Radical Islamic thought predates that, because we didn't have any interest in the Arabian Peninsula until we wanted oil from it.

Do you believe the main venom of radical Islam is directed at us? The people they really hate are the secular leaders of Muslim countries, whom they consider real traitors. When was the last significant peace agreement vis a vis Isreal? Probably Camp David, and you see how that worked out for Sadat. Not to mention that it was right around that time they took our hostages in Iran.

Do we do everything perfectly in foreign affairs? Obviously not. If we pull completely out of the world, and isolate, and let them overrun and destroy Isreal will that end the goals of these groups? I don't think so.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Radical Islam and the roots of Al Qaeda date back to the writings of Sayyid Qutb in the late 1940s. He explicitly stated that he hated our decandence and way of life. Ayman Al Zawahiri was an early follower of his, and agreed with this. This predates the end of the British mandate or the UN separation and certainly predates any Isreali expansion or concern about Palestinians. Osama Bin Laden came late to even worrying one whit about the Palestinians. His main beef was always our presence on the Arabian Peninsula. But the Radical Islamic thought predates that, because we didn't have any interest in the Arabian Peninsula until we wanted oil from it.

I'm pretty sure that your mention of Qutb did more to prove my point than your own. Qutb published his first work of religious social criticism in 1949 while he was in the US attending the University of Northern Colorado (from 1948 to 1950). That happens to be after the end of the British Mandate, after the declaration of independence by Israel, and after Truman supported the Zionist state (which led to over 800,000 Muslim refugees having to flee the area). I don't dispute that the Western lifestyle is in direct violation of the Muslim way of life, and that fact gives the radicals lots of propaganda ammunition to recruit more Jihadis. But even given your definition of the roots of the radical Islam movement, I think that US foreign policy is the direct cause. Over the years, we haven't helped the situation by supplying Israel with weapons, intelligent, and money while attacking primarily Muslim countries for various purposes.

On second thought, I'm 100% wrong. It's all our fault. Well, us and those Jews.

And arguing with me is tiresome.

 

[benbo]

And arguing with me is tiresome.

I decided to delete a couple of my posts because they probably weren't fair representations of your position. I still believe Qutb's initial fundamentalist thought had almost nothing to do with Palestine, mainly to do with the decadence, particularly sexual, that he experienced in the US, and happened before or very early in the history of the Jewish state. I don't see how to prove it one way or the other.

I was going to post another long opinion, but who cares.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I decided to delete a couple of my posts because they probably weren't fair representations of your position. I still believe Qutb's initial fundamentalist thought had almost nothing to do with Palestine, mainly to do with the decadence, particularly sexual, that he experienced in the US, and happened before or very early in the history of the Jewish state. I don't see how to prove it one way or the other.
I was going to post another long opinion, but who cares.

I enjoy debating with you, but you are a little quick to resort to personal attacks instead of just sticking to facts.

I had never heard of Qutb until you made your point, so it forced me to do some research to dispute you. I just focused on dates when he wrote his papers, and it seemed to support my position that it had more to do with Palestine/Israel than it did with western decadence.

 

[NCcarguy]

So you don't think that US foreign policy, namely our support of Israel vs. the Palestinians, had anything to do with our low reputation with radical Muslims? What, then, do you propose as an alternative, Mr. Giuliani? That debate when Rudy blew a gasket removed any respect I had for that *****. So, do you think that Muslims are just jealous of our freedoms, as Mr. Bush proposed?

ACTUALLY....I believe the RADICAL muslims believe they are to wage Jihad against anyone that does not believe like they do. And what better stage than to continually come after us, and Isreal??? They will never stop, and thinking that being nice to them will only lead to more American deaths! President Bush knows EXACTLY why they do what they do, but what else is he supposed to say to a media that bashes him on everything he does say? I for one am actually glad Obama was elected, it'll once again prove the point I just made.....aren't we now a loving nation that looks after everyone, and wouldn't hurt a fly? wonder how long that will take for us to get attacked again?

 

[benbo]

I enjoy debating with you, but you are a little quick to resort to personal attacks instead of just sticking to facts.

Fair point. It's not an effective style.

 

[DVINNY]

So you don't think that US foreign policy, namely our support of Israel vs. the Palestinians, had anything to do with our low reputation with radical Muslims?

To blame us for the way those radicals wage Jihad is F'IN STUPID. Plain and simple.

Now, if we had Americans strapping bomber jackets on, walking into muslim coffee shops and blowing themselves and everyone around them up in the name of democracy, I'd agree. We don't.

So YES, they're f'ckin nuts. It's not our fault. PERIOD.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

To blame us for the way those radicals wage Jihad is F'IN STUPID. Plain and simple.
Now, if we had Americans strapping bomber jackets on, walking into muslim coffee shops and blowing themselves and everyone around them up in the name of democracy, I'd agree. We don't.

So YES, they're f'ckin nuts. It's not our fault. PERIOD.

Saying it over and over again doesn't make it so. My government doesn't represent me, but it sure as hell does a lot of stuff I don't like in my name. You may not like it, but the US government makes a lot of stupid decisions that have consequences that you may not like...and our foreign policy did and does have a significant impact on radical Muslims.

 

[DVINNY]

Then move over there with Borat already.

 

[udpolo15]

I agree that there are a lot of radical that are crazy and will try to destroy anyone that doesn't agree with them. However,

I also believe that our government's actions have created an environment that the radicals are able to gain popular support.

We have our share of anti government radical's who want to destroy the gov't. The majority of us just ignore them and they never really gain any traction. However, if the government started acting in certain ways towards them (raids, locking them in jail without trail), their support would grow.

BTW, did any see 60 minutes last night? The Israelis have their fair share of radicals.

 

[dcny]

I like a lot of things about Dr. Paul, but some things I don't.
Ron Paul is not a "Truther" but he made frequent appearances on the Alex Jones show. That, along with the perception that he blamed 9-11 on US foreign policy (from that debate where Rudy called him out), led to people thinking that. Although I completely disagree with his notion that US foreign policy is to blame for the 9-11 attack except very tangentially (especially after reading the Looming Tower), at least that is an arguable position. Al Qaeda certainly used US presence in Saudi Arabia and the Palestinian situation as an excuse, but I don't believe that was their real underlying rationale.

But, like a lot of conspiracy theories, The Truther position is sort of nutty to me. I accept the various studies, including the Popular Mechanics analysis.

I don't listen to the Alex Jones show so I'm not familiar with the guests that frequent his show. I have heard Alex Jones interview Ron Paul a couple of time on YouTube though.

As for Rudy calling out Ron Paul in that debate, it was more like Rudy showing his ignorance.

Have you seen the video put out by the firefighters union regarding Rudy and the radios his administration supplied for the firefighters?


Rudy is despicable. His radios didn't work. Then he had the gall to testify that the firefighters didn't leave the tower because they wanted to stand their ground. ******** Rudy. They couldn't hear the order. What firefighter would want to go down with a building rather than go home to his family? What firefighter would rather go down with a building than see his kids grow up?

Ron Paul has stated unequivocally that he does not support the positions of the "9/11 Truthers". He doesn't choose his supporters they choose him.

Ron Paul submitted legislation to take care of Osama bin Laden and al queda in a Constitutional manner that would not have played into the bin Laden plan of destroying our economy. Congressman Paul submitted legislation for Congress to issue letters of Marque and Reprisal.

http://www.progress.org/fold232.htm

Billions, perhaps trillions, of dollars and thousands of American lives would not have been lost if this legislation had been enacted.

Congressman Paul was spot on with his plan to shut down the overseas empire, bring the troops home and have them secure our borders and ports.

 

[McEngr]

BTW, did any see 60 minutes last night? The Israelis have their fair share of radicals.

Not really when compared to the other side. Exaggeration.

 

[Dleg]

Ron Paul submitted legislation to take care of Osama bin Laden and al queda in a Constitutional manner that would not have played into the bin Laden plan of destroying our economy. Congressman Paul submitted legislation for Congress to issue letters of Marque and Reprisal.
http://www.progress.org/fold232.htm

Billions, perhaps trillions, of dollars and thousands of American lives would not have been lost if this legislation had been enacted.

Congressman Paul was spot on with his plan to shut down the overseas empire, bring the troops home and have them secure our borders and ports.

Yeah, that sounds like a GREAT plan:

... Private U.S. citizens would then be able to hunt down, attack and collect assets from terrorists who have or are planning to commit hostile acts against the U.S. and its citizens.

:screwloose:

 

[csb]

Just to talk about the original topic...a branch of a larger engineering firm was shut down here in town last week. Kind of a shock.

 

[Supe]

We've got permit issues on one of our jobs still looming in court, and two more of our power jobs are up in the air as to whether the buyer will back out, even though construction is already under way at both sites.

 

[Chucktown PE]

Is there any way to change my vote?

 

[TXengrChickPE]

^ as far as I know, no. did something happen with your job/company?