Packing Heat in State Parks

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SapperPE said:
If someone had carried in tuscon a couple weeks ago, we would be listening to a different story entirely.
Really? You think that somebody standing there, unsuspecting of anything, would have the time to take cover, unholster, switch from safe to semi, take a controlled aim, and shoot the prepared, moving, determined bad guy without inadvertantly killing another innocent bystander? My experience tells me that this is not an easy task even for trained and prepared people.

The difference in the story would be, "gunman kills XX people, and would-be hero kills XX more people." That is a much more realistic scenario.
i hate to disagree with you, especially if you have any military or law enforcement experience because i have none of either. But i do think that a couple of level headed people carrying could have stopped this before he shot 22 people. i have thought through this senario many times trying to determine what should be done if i ever have to draw on some one. Considering making a bad shot, getting shot by the perpetrator, getting shot by the police thinking i was the shooter, etc. There are many ways this go go very badly for a well intentioned bystander, but i would rather have that chance than to have none at all.

i hope i didnt derail this topic too long.

by the way i appreciate the civil way everyone is disagreeing here. i can evaluate a different opinion much better when the opposing party isnt shouting and waving their hands.

 
SapperPE said:
If someone had carried in tuscon a couple weeks ago, we would be listening to a different story entirely.
Really? You think that somebody standing there, unsuspecting of anything, would have the time to take cover, unholster, switch from safe to semi, take a controlled aim, and shoot the prepared, moving, determined bad guy without inadvertantly killing another innocent bystander? My experience tells me that this is not an easy task even for trained and prepared people.

The difference in the story would be, "gunman kills XX people, and would-be hero kills XX more people." That is a much more realistic scenario.
i hate to disagree with you, especially if you have any military or law enforcement experience because i have none of either. But i do think that a couple of level headed people carrying could have stopped this before he shot 22 people. i have thought through this senario many times trying to determine what should be done if i ever have to draw on some one. Considering making a bad shot, getting shot by the perpetrator, getting shot by the police thinking i was the shooter, etc. There are many ways this go go very badly for a well intentioned bystander, but i would rather have that chance than to have none at all.

i hope i didnt derail this topic too long.

by the way i appreciate the civil way everyone is disagreeing here. i can evaluate a different opinion much better when the opposing party isnt shouting and waving their hands.
Did you read cableguy's post above (post 19 in this thread)? There WAS a guy in the crowd that was carrying, but he assessed the situation and decided not to fire. Not only would he have put more people in the line of fire, but he would have also made himself a bigger target for the nut job.

 
yes i read his post. i felt the point was being made that noone should have had a gun there and even if they did they wouldnt have had a shot. whether this guy had a shot or not i dont know. all we know is that he felt he shouldnt fire. i was making the point that even though he nor anyone else shot, the attendants were safer with him there to at least have the option. you cant fire a gun that isnt there or isnt loaded. sorry but im sticking to that argument.

 
I grew up in the sticks, and everyone had guns. Back in the late seventies crime skyrocketed out in the sticks, and the sheriff had two cars for our end of the county. Response time was 45 minutes. Shoot, even my grandmother had a gun.

Now, no one killed anyone, but I know of more than a few attempted burglaries that were thwarted by an armed homeowner.

Recently, the coyote population has gotten out of control and Dad doesn't go into the woods anymore without a gun. He has blistered more than a few wild dogs with his shotgun.

 
For some reason I started DVR'ing Concealed Carry School on SpikeTV, and I've watched a couple of episodes. I really dislike the show, it's about 4 minutes of "substance" with about 26 minutes of commercials, fluff, and "next on Concealed Carry School" (basically, they spend 45 seconds telling you what's after the commercial - and then it's a 1:30 segment after the commercial of what you just saw... I can't stand shows like that, much like Entertainment Tonight)... Anyhow. One of their "final exam tests" was to have a student walk through a simulated parking lot where they stumbled upon a man arguing and threatening a woman. Every student drew their weapon and attempted to insert themselves between the man and woman... only to be surprised from behind by the woman with a gun, and then the "student" was robbed. While maybe a bit of a far fetched scenario, I disagree completely with every one of these students "inserting" themselves in to the situation. It's not my place to insert myself in to a situation like that. I'll call the cops. No sweat. My phone is much easier to draw than my weapon. But if my life, or my family's life, is not in danger, I'm not getting in the middle of stuff. Cold, callous me... maybe. I'll call the cops. But I'm not getting between people I don't know. To reiterate, I am not a cop. It's none of my business.

But back to carrying in state parks, I still believe that it would be a good thing to do. I've read too many stories about really weird people on trails (first hand accounts, on other boards I hang out on). The critter factor also comes in to play. But, I do think "gun owners" should be prudent how they present themselves to the public. Walking around with an AK on your back and a half dozen 30 round clips on your chest probably isn't appropriate for a state park hike. Heck, I'm the first to admit that I really don't see the point of a 30+ round Glock magazine (one of the political hotbuttons these days). But do I believe they should be banned? Absolutely not. If someone wants one, they should be able to buy one. I like concealed carry. I don't care much for open carry. OC strikes me as more attention-seeking than actual safety.

 
SapperPE said:
After the fact, when you haven't actually utilized your weaponry in the heat of the battle as you always tend to fantasize you will, it is easy to understand why somebody will say they felt they did not have a clear shot. My bet is that the guy reacted just like most people will in the chaos of the moment. You will take cover and you aren't thinking about being able to remove your firearm and fire controlled, well-aimed shots against the violent sociopath. The fact is, that somebody being there carrying concealed, in fact bolsters my argument. I do not believe the average person carrying a gun is anywhere near the hero they envision themselves to be and in fact will not react heroically during the 45 - 60 seconds that they may have to actually make such an act.
I have no problem with folks disagreeing with me, so don't feel bad about that, and yes I do have military experience. I've been in combat. I know that it is not easy, even when you are riding around in an armored truck with several other armored trucks armed to the teeth with automatic firepower, the ability to call in indirect fire and close air support, and tons of training. It just isn't as easy as the PRO-gun crowd wants to believe it is. If you are back here in the homeland, you generally are at ease. There are several reasons for this, and it isn't a dis on anybody. The truth is that we are all pretty unawares when these types of events happen because of the fact that it is so statistically improbable that we will experience it, no matter what we try to tell ourselves, we don't actually truly believe it will ever happen because it hasn't ever happened to us. The other reason is because even if it does happen, you aren't trained to handle it. Sure, some may have had combat training, police training, or whatever, but how many of you have been through "React to Active Shooter" training? Okay, so how many reactors are in the standard shape response force? Hmmm? Oh, you don't know? That's because you haven't been through the training. Who is the pace setter in the diamond formation? Again, you have no clue? What is the contingency if the point man gets shot, who rotates into that role? On that note, how do you put together a reactor team from a group of unsuspecting armed bystanders? It's a challenge, it can be done, but it is more likely not feasible in the amount of time you have.

My point is that having a gun, is NOT an advantage in most of these situations. In most of these situations, folks who think of themselves as very responsible, capable people are actually undertrained, and underequipped to handle the situation. In addition to that, most will be completely unprepared to cope with the psychological baggage that comes with killing somebody, even if it is in self defense. It is a painful, turbulent, difficult time in your life dealing with things after taking another human life, don't hope to experience it for yourself.

Look guys, I don't think I am going to change any of your minds. I am not trying to insinuate that you should not own weapons. It is your right. I vow to uphold and support the constitution of the United States, keep your guns. What I am saying is not to delude yourselves into thinking that you are doing a public or even personal service by maintaining a firearm to administer swift justice when seconds count and the police are only minutes away. It just isn't likely. And to the person who says the self defense issues happen the time, I challenge that. It happens much more infrequently than you think and not every single news outlet is biased against guns. There are some self defense stories, for sure, but not many.

I guess in a nutshell...

Keep your guns for hunting and to thwart off bears and wolves in the wild but stop fooling yourself into thinking that you will be a hero when the gunman has the tactical advantage of surprise, audacity, and preparedness AND has a psychological pre-disposition to pull the trigger and feel no remorse.
well put

 
One of their "final exam tests" was to have a student walk through a simulated parking lot where they stumbled upon a man arguing and threatening a woman. Every student drew their weapon and attempted to insert themselves between the man and woman... only to be surprised from behind by the woman with a gun, and then the "student" was robbed.
That's kinda like entrapment. If you are in the mindset of training for concealed carry use, and they put you into a potentially dangerous situation, you should be expected to pull your weapon. Unless, of course, they have been teaching courses on when it is and is not appropriate to pull your weapon. Like the old adage goes, when you're a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. If the course focuses on proper shooting technique and the such, of course the students' first response to any situation presented is to pull their weapon. If the course focuses on assessing the situation and determining whether or not to pull your weapon and get involved, then all of the students should have failed.

 
SapperPE said:
You will take cover and you aren't thinking about being able to remove your firearm and fire controlled, well-aimed shots against the violent sociopath. The fact is, that somebody being there carrying concealed, in fact bolsters my argument. I do not believe the average person carrying a gun is anywhere near the hero they envision themselves to be and in fact will not react heroically during the 45 - 60 seconds that they may have to actually make such an act.
I don't think it would have taken a "hero" to act in Tuscon. When a ten-year-old girl is shot to death at point blank range, I don't think it takes a hero to react... I think it's instinct.

I certainly agree that the shots would not be "well-aimed." Law enforcement guys who have been in shootouts say that sights disappear when the first shot is fired.

However, I don't think that means bystanders could not have reacted effectively. Two or three guys point-shooting from close range probably would have hit the shooter before he shot 18 people or whatever he did.

 
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