Failed multiple times, options?

[Lomarandil]

I think part of this stems from some schools that offer less than the desired number of course hours to graduate also...

I think you make a good point with this. My old boss went to the same University as me and we were talking one day about the requirements it took to get an engineering degree (BS) back when he was in college. He said that during his time an engineering degree was programmed out to be 148 credit hours. Mine was only 128. Not sure why a university would ever want to knock that number down..especially considering most tuition's are priced based on a per credit hour basis. I guess they can still make the same amount by simply increasing tuition every semester at a pretty healthy rate... :juggle:

The school I went to (CSM) had engineering degrees at somewhere around 160 credit hours. Being a public institution, the state told the board of governors that wasn't acceptable, and they needed to bring degrees down to around the 140 credit hour mark.

The school's response? They trimmed out a class or two per major, but mostly just reduced how many credit hours each course was worth. I had two 1.0 credit hour labs and a 1.5 credit hour summer survey session that were by far the most time intensive courses in any of my undergraduate work (and pretty high up on the mental rigor too).

I don't think graduate school is a catch-all option. But even with my 145 credit undergrad degree (at a well respected school with a technical focus, very few humanities courses), I still ended up graduating without a lick of structural steel design, and very little geotechnical/transportation coursework. For a field as broad as Civil Engineering, I really felt the graduate courses rounded out a lot of the gaps in my knowledge base.

 

[knight1fox3]

http://ncees.org/about-ncees/engineering-education-initiative/

Knock yourselves out. Here's all there is to know about the masters or equivalent initiative. So far it's only in their model law which they describe as the Gold standard for states to follow. Each state would have to put it into their own law. If some do and some don't? That would be a real mess for getting licensed in multiple states. If I'm already licensed in a state without a masters and apply to a state that requires it, do I have to get a masters to be licensed there? That would be an issue for this ol' dog.......

this one too. I have no desire to go back to school.

+1

ldman:

 

[solomonb]

The 30+ hours in 2020 is a recommendation in the model law. Some states elect to follow the model law, others do not. This idea is not without precedent. To sit for the Certified Public Accountant (CPA) exam, you have to have 150 hours of college credit--- it makes no difference if the additional ~30 hours is graduate or undergraduate, you need 150 hours of college credit to sit for the CPA exam. I have seen some candidates earn a Master's degree, while others took the 30 hours in something that they were interested in, often times, having no applicability to accounting. How do I know? I was a Business College Dean for several years!!

The ostensible reason that engineering curricula has reduced course content, i.e., credit hours is mainly based upon state support to higher education institutions. Today, state support is often less than 20% of the overall cost of the degree. Legislatures have elected to require the university to cut down the required course hours so that, ostensibly, a student could graduate in 4 years. In today's world, that is tougher and tougher to do, though not impossible-- however, one has to have some rich planning to be able to graduate in 4 years.

For the candidate to take the examination 4 times and not pass, I would seriously question the studying strategy. The examination is designed to ascertain the minimally competent engineer, the C- student. There is no reason to continue to take the exam and wish and hope that you pass. A far more rational strategy is to review the NCEES elements of examination, make damn sure that you know and understand every point that is identified, know how to work all of the possible problems associated with the element and then work many problems. Taking the test multiple times is not only very expensive, both in physical, mental and fiscal resources, but if you don't make some drastic changes in your study strategy, you won't get a different result.

Good luck-- this is totally possible-- however, it looks like the candidate got himself in a corner.

 

[Jonhnny123]

For the candidate to take the examination 4 times and not pass, I would seriously question the studying strategy. The examination is designed to ascertain the minimally competent engineer, the C- student. There is no reason to continue to take the exam and wish and hope that you pass. A far more rational strategy is to review the NCEES elements of examination, make damn sure that you know and understand every point that is identified, know how to work all of the possible problems associated with the element and then work many problems. Taking the test multiple times is not only very expensive, both in physical, mental and fiscal resources, but if you don't make some drastic changes in your study strategy, you won't get a different result.

Good luck-- this is totally possible-- however, it looks like the candidate got himself in a corner.

I'd say it's catered more towards a C+/B- student. Give us a little credit!

But I fully agree, the PE exam is something that you should be very well prepared for. You need to have a certain amount of intelligence/knowledge, but just as important you need the focus and drive to prepare for the test. If you fail once, you need to seriously evaluate your studying methods and make an improvement.

 

[solomonb]

Rest assured, the test is geared to the minimally competent engineer, the C- student. How do I know? I help write the exam questions!!!!

Be further assured that there is a whole battery, ~ 4-7 PE's, that review each question to be sure that the question is of proper difficulty! I have rejected questions from academic PE's that ask a question that may be germane to a senior level design class, but probably would never be found or identified in 4 years of practice. Example-- find the second roots of some polynomial function. This is germane in a totally theory based class, however, what the PE test is designed to do is to identify the minimally competent engineer. Finding second roots would not be something that would normally be encountered in an industrial practice environment.

Writing questions is a hell of lot more complicated than you might imagine. I am of the belief that if I cannot answer the question, then I cannot expect a PE candidate to answer either. I have lots of academic training and industrial experience-- like 40 years, so, if I cannot do it, then I don't expect a candidate to do so either!!! That is my philosophy-- others have different beliefs. Now, I have no problem using COMMON reference material, however, again, if the reference material is something that is obtuse or not commonly available to a normal practicing engineer, then I have a problem with that as well. Let me provide an example--- some obtuse question that uses a Military Standard handbook for reference that may/may not be commonly available is probably something that I would reject.

The PE test is designed to ascertain the minimal competency of the PE candidate. I continue to be amazed by the number of folks who, ostensibly graduated from an ABET accredited engineering program and take 3-4 tries to pass the PE exam. As I have cited previously, reviewing the NCEES elements of examination, knowing the material that is identified therein and being able to answer the question is the key to passing the PE exam. A well prepared candidate should be able, by inspection, to know and understand the question and what the answer should be. Remember, the questions are designed to be answered in 6 minutes or less. Some questions can be answered by inspection, i.e., the correct answer and the distractors are so far afield that if you understand the subject, you can instantly select the correct answer. Other questions require calculations of the second and third order, but are not so complex that a candidate should struggle with completing the calculations.

There is no reason to take the PE exam more than one time. Really study and know the NCEES elements of examination--- if you know and UNDERSTAND the subjects, you should have no problem passing the PE exam. Now, this is NOT the "hope and pray" method. Hoping and Praying is both foolish and stupid. It costs money to take the exam-- no reason to spend money foolishly-- take it once and be done with it.

 

[Golden Eagle PE]

Rest assured, the test is geared to the minimally competent engineer, the C- student. How do I know? I help write the exam questions!!!!

Be further assured that there is a whole battery, ~ 4-7 PE's, that review each question to be sure that the question is of proper difficulty! I have rejected questions from academic PE's that ask a question that may be germane to a senior level design class, but probably would never be found or identified in 4 years of practice. Example-- find the second roots of some polynomial function. This is germane in a totally theory based class, however, what the PE test is designed to do is to identify the minimally competent engineer. Finding second roots would not be something that would normally be encountered in an industrial practice environment.

Writing questions is a hell of lot more complicated than you might imagine. I am of the belief that if I cannot answer the question, then I cannot expect a PE candidate to answer either. I have lots of academic training and industrial experience-- like 40 years, so, if I cannot do it, then I don't expect a candidate to do so either!!! That is my philosophy-- others have different beliefs. Now, I have no problem using COMMON reference material, however, again, if the reference material is something that is obtuse or not commonly available to a normal practicing engineer, then I have a problem with that as well. Let me provide an example--- some obtuse question that uses a Military Standard handbook for reference that may/may not be commonly available is probably something that I would reject.

The PE test is designed to ascertain the minimal competency of the PE candidate. I continue to be amazed by the number of folks who, ostensibly graduated from an ABET accredited engineering program and take 3-4 tries to pass the PE exam. As I have cited previously, reviewing the NCEES elements of examination, knowing the material that is identified therein and being able to answer the question is the key to passing the PE exam. A well prepared candidate should be able, by inspection, to know and understand the question and what the answer should be. Remember, the questions are designed to be answered in 6 minutes or less. Some questions can be answered by inspection, i.e., the correct answer and the distractors are so far afield that if you understand the subject, you can instantly select the correct answer. Other questions require calculations of the second and third order, but are not so complex that a candidate should struggle with completing the calculations.

There is no reason to take the PE exam more than one time. Really study and know the NCEES elements of examination--- if you know and UNDERSTAND the subjects, you should have no problem passing the PE exam. Now, this is NOT the "hope and pray" method. Hoping and Praying is both foolish and stupid. It costs money to take the exam-- no reason to spend money foolishly-- take it once and be done with it.

Well said solomonb! I studied about 350 hours and put everything I had into the exam when the day came. I hope I passed. Hopefully results are just a few weeks away.

I think I am drifting in and out of the "I might have totally bombed the test" phase and then back into the "I probably passed" phase.

 

[Lumber Jim]

Where's that "Phase of the PE Examinees" post by Dex again?

 

[knight1fox3]

Where's that "Phase of the PE Examinees" post by Dex again?

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=21356#entry7025139