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Ask yourself these few questions;How do you design a member for loads? Do you rely on some Martian principles and theories or the very basic load analysis methods we learn in school right here on earth in our brick and mortar classrooms? Staitics, Dynamics, Plastic, Linear and non-linear analysis etc?

How did the come up with the codes? Were they dreamt of by one awesome SE,PE or a combination of experts with both ScD, PhDs, BS's, MSs, SE, PE, etc?

You know why the system is messed up? Because we tend to agree with these same popular notions that you are throwing around here. Don't get me wrong the ultimate should be experience but you cannot get to that without the very basic tools you need. What we need to realise is every stage (college, after college industry experience etc.) comes with some responsibility and each has to be respected. The Engineering College stage spans over (4+2+3 years if you want a PhD) only 9years with the average being just 4 years (BS degree only) but a career spans over average 40 years. You spend roughly those forty years learning how to do things the smart and efficient way!

That is my 2 cents.
Those basic tools aren't all that difficult to learn though. In fact, I'd argue that they're easier to learn in the field than they are to learn in the classroom - at least for some people. I know I had a hard time with my first time dealing with some of the concepts when I look at them in books (even with examples provided), then I sketch them out to help me produce a 3D "mental model" and have an Eureka moment.

 
Ask yourself these few questions;How do you design a member for loads? Do you rely on some Martian principles and theories or the very basic load analysis methods we learn in school right here on earth in our brick and mortar classrooms? Staitics, Dynamics, Plastic, Linear and non-linear analysis etc?

How did the come up with the codes? Were they dreamt of by one awesome SE,PE or a combination of experts with both ScD, PhDs, BS's, MSs, SE, PE, etc?

You know why the system is messed up? Because we tend to agree with these same popular notions that you are throwing around here. Don't get me wrong the ultimate should be experience but you cannot get to that without the very basic tools you need. What we need to realise is every stage (college, after college industry experience etc.) comes with some responsibility and each has to be respected. The Engineering College stage spans over (4+2+3 years if you want a PhD) only 9years with the average being just 4 years (BS degree only) but a career spans over average 40 years. You spend roughly those forty years learning how to do things the smart and efficient way!

That is my 2 cents.
Those basic tools aren't all that difficult to learn though. In fact, I'd argue that they're easier to learn in the field than they are to learn in the classroom - at least for some people. I know I had a hard time with my first time dealing with some of the concepts when I look at them in books (even with examples provided), then I sketch them out to help me produce a 3D "mental model" and have an Eureka moment.
Karen, you had the Eureka moment because the seed was subconsciously planted by you going through the Engineering curriculum. That is why the PE exam is called Princinples and Practice Exam.

If experience was the only important thing then we would not need references for the exam as well as our daily practice. The two must complement each other.

 
Karen, you had the Eureka moment because the seed was subconsciously planted by you going through the Engineering curriculum. That is why the PE exam is called Princinples and Practice Exam.If experience was the only important thing then we would not need references for the exam as well as our daily practice. The two must complement each other.
That'd be a neat trick, what with have not gone through the Engineering curriculum in school - or, for that matter, having had a single chemistry or "real" physics course (I think I had a class that touched on physics in my Freshman year in HS). There's a reason I tend to post in the threads regarding alternative requirements to become an engineer.

Note that I wasn't talking about having a eureka moment during my exam - I was talking about during my pre-exam studies, or my studies while at work. By the time I got to my FE exam, I'd pretty much gotten a good grasp on the concepts of the engineering disciplines.

 
Certain disciplines are very code driven to be able to practice them one can probably get by using a design guide. Examples would be common building type work for structural, HVAC, or Electrical Power to a building. The majority of that design can be done simply by a designer, and it's just law that it has to be stamped by a P.E. However, what happens when one is asked to design something very innovate e.g. that is not covered in any code and does not have a ridiculous factor of safety or is driven buy "rules of thumb" ? Then one has to rely on fundamental principles learned in school, statics, dynamics, strength of materials, fluids, thermodynamics, and yes mathematics. In this case the non-degreed engineer might run into trouble. Granted in most of these situations where one would run into this an P.E. would probably not be necessary (as a plan checker might not even understand what is involved in coming up with the design).

Once I was asked to design a drainage system for a storage tank in a refinery that would allow for rain water to drain into the tank when the level got high enough, yet close and be vapor-tight under normal conditions to prevent hydrocarbons from venting out of the tank. At the time I was a fresh graduate, not a P.E., and none of the P.E.s in my then large company could figure it out. The calculation was iterative and involved triple integrals, ect. I had to solve the equations in excel to avoid rounding errors. The design worked perfectly.

Another example is when Solar photo voltaic were not covered by the National Electrical Code.... someone had to use their best judgement (and fundamental engineering principles) in designing them to be safe. These lessons learned ultimately became code and now they are available for everyone to use. Now even an electrician can design them. In California licensed electrical and mechanical contractors can design the systems which they will install themselves without needing a P.E.... Why? Well simply because codes make it like a recipe for design which someone with sufficient understanding can follow and execute.

 
Certain disciplines are very code driven to be able to practice them one can probably get by using a design guide. Examples would be common building type work for structural, HVAC, or Electrical Power to a building. The majority of that design can be done simply by a designer, and it's just law that it has to be stamped by a P.E. However, what happens when one is asked to design something very innovate e.g. that is not covered in any code and does not have a ridiculous factor of safety or is driven buy "rules of thumb" ? Then one has to rely on fundamental principles learned in school, statics, dynamics, strength of materials, fluids, thermodynamics, and yes mathematics. In this case the non-degreed engineer might run into trouble. Granted in most of these situations where one would run into this an P.E. would probably not be necessary (as a plan checker might not even understand what is involved in coming up with the design).
Once I was asked to design a drainage system for a storage tank in a refinery that would allow for rain water to drain into the tank when the level got high enough, yet close and be vapor-tight under normal conditions to prevent hydrocarbons from venting out of the tank. At the time I was a fresh graduate, not a P.E., and none of the P.E.s in my then large company could figure it out. The calculation was iterative and involved triple integrals, ect. I had to solve the equations in excel to avoid rounding errors. The design worked perfectly.

Another example is when Solar photo voltaic were not covered by the National Electrical Code.... someone had to use their best judgement (and fundamental engineering principles) in designing them to be safe. These lessons learned ultimately became code and now they are available for everyone to use. Now even an electrician can design them. In California licensed electrical and mechanical contractors can design the systems which they will install themselves without needing a P.E.... Why? Well simply because codes make it like a recipe for design which someone with sufficient understanding can follow and execute.
I quite agree with you, except that you are assuming a graduate engineer will do better. I've dealt with some frightfully stupid/bad college graduates, and even licensed engineers at times can overestimate their area of expertise. Personally, I suspect I underestimate mine.

 
I quite agree with you, except that you are assuming a graduate engineer will do better. I've dealt with some frightfully stupid/bad college graduates, and even licensed engineers at times can overestimate their area of expertise. Personally, I suspect I underestimate mine.
True, there are plenty of frightfully stupid/bad college graduates... :bananadoggywow:

 
Certain disciplines are very code driven to be able to practice them one can probably get by using a design guide. Examples would be common building type work for structural, HVAC, or Electrical Power to a building. The majority of that design can be done simply by a designer, and it's just law that it has to be stamped by a P.E. However, what happens when one is asked to design something very innovate e.g. that is not covered in any code and does not have a ridiculous factor of safety or is driven buy "rules of thumb" ? Then one has to rely on fundamental principles learned in school, statics, dynamics, strength of materials, fluids, thermodynamics, and yes mathematics. In this case the non-degreed engineer might run into trouble. Granted in most of these situations where one would run into this an P.E. would probably not be necessary (as a plan checker might not even understand what is involved in coming up with the design).
Once I was asked to design a drainage system for a storage tank in a refinery that would allow for rain water to drain into the tank when the level got high enough, yet close and be vapor-tight under normal conditions to prevent hydrocarbons from venting out of the tank. At the time I was a fresh graduate, not a P.E., and none of the P.E.s in my then large company could figure it out. The calculation was iterative and involved triple integrals, ect. I had to solve the equations in excel to avoid rounding errors. The design worked perfectly.

Another example is when Solar photo voltaic were not covered by the National Electrical Code.... someone had to use their best judgement (and fundamental engineering principles) in designing them to be safe. These lessons learned ultimately became code and now they are available for everyone to use. Now even an electrician can design them. In California licensed electrical and mechanical contractors can design the systems which they will install themselves without needing a P.E.... Why? Well simply because codes make it like a recipe for design which someone with sufficient understanding can follow and execute.
:plusone: There are certain things one can learn in a classroom that can't be necessarily learned from work experience. Conversely, there are certain things on can learn from actual work experience that isn't taught in a classroom. Both attributes make for a competent and well-rounded engineer in my opinion.

 
:plusone: There are certain things one can learn in a classroom that can't be necessarily learned from work experience. Conversely, there are certain things on can learn from actual work experience that isn't taught in a classroom. Both attributes make for a competent and well-rounded engineer in my opinion.
Agreed, to a point, but I'd argue that the things that can't necessarily be learned from work experience are generally covered - or expected to be covered - on the FE, where you have no access to books. I know I studied hard on my own time (2 FE exam prep books, Chemistry textbook, Statics & Dynamics textbooks, CERM) for that exam, so I could remember things that I thought would be useful. Ended up not covering 90% of what I studied.

 
I am one of two project engineers here. The other worked here through college but got his degree in architecture. Thankfully, he has not shown any interest (yet) in taking engineering classes or getting licensed. I have more seniority than he does so as long as he is not licensed and I am, I feel pretty good about my job security.

 

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