Cut Scores

[smahurin]

I really don't buy that argument.  Maybe test scores will be lower, maybe they'll be higher.  The scores have historically fluctuated from year to year and within each discipline.  I'm not sure anyone could really pick apart whether they are higher or lower as a specific result of more of one group taking an exam (IE younger test takers). 

 

[Romeo J]

About 5 more more and results will be trouping in. The wait is real...Looking forwards to the results

 

[CU07]

I bolded the relevant part of my post for you.  I am glad you passed one of the Civil exams with less than the prescribed level of experience.  I think some other disciplines may have a harder time with less than 4 years.  I think someone who is well beyond minimally competent can probably pass at any point after college.  Someone right near the cutoff for competency would likely benefit from the work experience portion of the requirements, as practical knowledge is tested.  Not everyone's job will be directly relevant, but that doesn't mean that work experience wouldn't help lots of other test takers.

There is no curve.  The cut score is designed to pass people who are minimally competent and fail those who are not.  It doesn't matter how many people take the test.  If 1,500 people take it and only 400 meet the standard for minimally competent, then only 400 will pass.

NCEES changed their Model Law to decouple experience from examination in 2013, meaning they support examinees taking it when they feel ready, but licensure still requires the same experience.  The exam has not, and will not, change because of this.  It is entirely possible that inexperienced examinees will have a hard time passing without practical experience - and I think this may be true for some exams more so than for others.

that's not accurate. when i took the test for civil, i had 3 years of experience (minus two working for a power plant, so virtually 1 year) and passed easily

that time everything you needed to know was in the PPI book. as long as you studied from it, you passed. Most of everything i was tested on i never saw again in my professional life. But at least it was in the study material. Unlike the power exam i took.

 

[JUST DO IT!]

any reason for this? Was it that much harder than the others?

That was just my guesstimate based on what i heard from 3 WRE repeat test takers. They all said the test this year is more harder than the previous year. As per them, the estimated cut off score for the October 2015 WRE was around 56. So, assuming all that is true, I guessed the cut off would be less than 56.

 

[ngmakhlo_PE]

That was just my guesstimate based on what i heard from 3 WRE repeat test takers. They all said the test this year is more harder than the previous year. As per them, the estimated cut off score for the October 2015 WRE was around 56. So, assuming all that is true, I guessed the cut off would be less than 56.

I took the Transportation exam in April 2016 with very little prep and did not pass. However, I did not find it to be very difficult, had I known my references better I would've been able to pass the exam I believe. Once I found out I failed the exam I decided to take a review course and get serious about studying. I put in about 410 hours of studying for this past October exam and felt pretty good walking out of the exam. I do believe the content of this exam was more difficult but since I put in the time studying I was able to get through most of it without too much difficulty, but NCEES will be the judge of that I guess!  good luck to everyone waiting for their results.

 

[InfinityX2K4]

That was just my guesstimate based on what i heard from 3 WRE repeat test takers. They all said the test this year is more harder than the previous year. As per them, the estimated cut off score for the October 2015 WRE was around 56. So, assuming all that is true, I guessed the cut off would be less than 56.

is more harder... is more harder... is more harder...  :suicide1:

Hope you are correct about the scores though, 3-4 weeks out before we know.  

 

[smahurin]

I bolded the relevant part of my post for you.  I am glad you passed one of the Civil exams with less than the prescribed level of experience.  I think some other disciplines may have a harder time with less than 4 years.  I think someone who is well beyond minimally competent can probably pass at any point after college.  Someone right near the cutoff for competency would likely benefit from the work experience portion of the requirements, as practical knowledge is tested.  Not everyone's job will be directly relevant, but that doesn't mean that work experience wouldn't help lots of other test takers.

I would agree in general with what you said in that I think we all fall into the trap of thinking the PE discipline exam we took is comparable to all the other PE exam's which is likely far from the truth.  I know I do/have.

To his point the way the Civil AM exam is structured, it discourages experience.  At a minimum 80% of the Civil AM exam is purposefully over material a test taker almost assuredly hasn't seen since college... which is dumb.  The intent of the Civil PE exam (AM portion specifically) is to test you over material you have no experience in and don't see on a day to day basis, no likely will ever deal with in practice.  Civil PE's usually specialize in WRE/Structural/GEO/Transportation/other... not all of the above.  Therefore, in that specific case, experience is "bad" as the more experience you have (in terms of years of practice) the further removed someone is from having learned or dealt with the material that is on the AM exam.  The PM exam is somewhat the opposite as it should be over material that tests a combination of your experience and college tutelage.  For this reason, experience is at best totally irrelevant to the Civil PE exam, and arguably counter productive at worst.  BUT that is likely not true for many of the other disciplines.  I would assume (hope) that the other exams do a better job of actually testing one's ability to do their job, which in part is based on ones experience.

 

[FlyingScot]

I would agree in general with what you said in that I think we all fall into the trap of thinking the PE discipline exam we took is comparable to all the other PE exam's which is likely far from the truth.  I know I do/have.

To his point the way the Civil AM exam is structured, it discourages experience.  At a minimum 80% of the Civil AM exam is purposefully over material a test taker almost assuredly hasn't seen since college... which is dumb.  The intent of the Civil PE exam (AM portion specifically) is to test you over material you have no experience in and don't see on a day to day basis, no likely will ever deal with in practice.  Civil PE's usually specialize in WRE/Structural/GEO/Transportation/other... not all of the above.  Therefore, in that specific case, experience is "bad" as the more experience you have (in terms of years of practice) the further removed someone is from having learned or dealt with the material that is on the AM exam.  The PM exam is somewhat the opposite as it should be over material that tests a combination of your experience and college tutelage.  For this reason, experience is at best totally irrelevant to the Civil PE exam, and arguably counter productive at worst.  BUT that is likely not true for many of the other disciplines.  I would assume (hope) that the other exams do a better job of actually testing one's ability to do their job, which in part is based on ones experience.

This mirrors my experience, there was incredibly little relevant information on my exam relative to my employment, even on the afternoon portion.  I understand the construction PM is necessarily broad and I'm not going to enjoy as much familiarity as, say, a transportation engineer taking the transportation PM, but we're still talking 60-80% of that exam.  For every question that my "experience" helped me answer there were three over topics I haven't seen since school and will likely never see again (assuming I passed!).  It would have absolutely benefited me to be able to take this exam right out of college rather than having to balance relearning concrete, geotech, etc. with a full time job 6-8 years later.

 

[Civil PE Seeker]

Hello everyone, I am not sure based on what everyone gives estimates on what the cut score was or will be. One think I can tell you for sure - in Texas you actually get a percentage grade regardless if you pass or not. If the percentage reported by the Texas board is 70% or greater it means you pass the test. If you fail, apart from the percentage grade given by the Texas board you still get the diagnostics letter from NCEES that every candidate failing the test gets. I took the test in April, Civil PE and depth portion Water Resources/Environmental. I felt prepared and I walked out of the test feeling I had good chance but I was not 100% sure. When I finally got my grade, I was short by not too much. I got a 68% per Texas board reported grade, and per NCEES diagnostics letter I had 49 questions correct. If you do the math, this means that the 70% Texas grade required to pass translated to about 51 questions. I took the exam again in October and I did think the exam was harder but I studied more this time and I honestly felt improvements compare to my April exam. Hopefully I get it this time and I don't know what the cut score will be. I don't know if it will be as low as 49 as suggested by somebody, but I certainly don't think it will be as high as 58 or 59 as someone else said. This is a personal opinion - I honestly don't think the cut score will ever be greater 56 questions. If you get 56 questions correct, I think there is now way you are failing - 56 translates to exactly 70% without any scaling or curve applied. 

 

[smahurin]

You get a breakdown of how many you get wrong/right only if you don't pass.  In which case you also get the diagnostic breakdown you mentioned. If you pass, the only thing you receive is notification you passed.  The passing score for each exam is determined by NCEES for the national exam.  The state boards have no influence on pass score/rate.  

The intent of a nationally set passing score for the PE exam is such that a passing score is passing... regardless of where it was taken.  It would be insanely confusing if different states had different passing scores as you could "pass" in texas, but would have failed in some other state (say utah) and would be required to re-take the exam in order to gain comity.  This would really complicate the comity process for gaining licensure in other states which is why, presumably, its avoided.

 

[CAPLS]

You get a breakdown of how many you get wrong/right only if you don't pass.  In which case you also get the diagnostic breakdown you mentioned. If you pass, the only thing you receive is notification you passed.  The passing score for each exam is determined by NCEES for the national exam.  The state boards have no influence on pass score/rate.  

The intent of a nationally set passing score for the PE exam is such that a passing score is passing... regardless of where it was taken.  It would be insanely confusing if different states had different passing scores as you could "pass" in texas, but would have failed in some other state (say utah) and would be required to re-take the exam in order to gain comity.  This would really complicate the comity process for gaining licensure in other states which is why, presumably, its avoided.

Technically speaking, the passing score is determined by NCEES and recommended to the state licensing boards for acceptance.  Any state board can choose to accept that recommendation or modify the passing score.  In today's world, predominately the licensing boards all do accept the NCEES recommendation because NCEES is very good at communicating with the member boards how the process is conducted, audited, and verified.  However, I believe there still remains one licensing board that is mandated to consider veteran's points and apply those accordingly to the recommended passing score.  I've heard that board may be changing that stance.  Bottom line, is that NCEES does a very good job of preparing, administering, and scoring their exams, but each licensing board does have final say over what is passing or not in their individual jurisdictions.

 

[Civil PE Seeker]

I agree with what everybody said. Specially the comment about the cut score being the same on every state, it would not only be insane but also unfair to other candidates if the cut score varies by state. However, the point I wanted to make is that the Texas board also reports a percentage grade regardless of whether you pass or not. You need 70% to pass and I am saying this because I know of people that passed the test with a reported grade of 70% and of course they didn't get a diagnostics report. Now, keep in mind that the percentage scale is based of course on NCEES recommendations. Let's say NCEES says the cut score is 53. If you get 53 questions correct, Texas board will report your grade roughly at 70% and it means you passed, if you have 52 questions correct the Texas board will report your score roughly as 69% and it means you failed. So the reported percentage score will go up or down depending on the number of questions correct either above or below the recommended cut score. For the April 2016 exam, based on my 68% score reported by the Texas board and based on the 49 questions I had correct per the diagnostics report, one can infer by doing some basic math calculation that the cut score for the Civil PE - Water Resources/Environmental was about 51 questions. I am basically just giving some reasoning and analysis on how I believe the cut score was 51, rather than just throwing a number there like it was said at the very first post that the cut score was going to be 59 for this test. Whether my analysis is correct or not, that I don't know for sure. But at least it has some official information behind it to support the claims. 

 

[JUST DO IT!]

is more harder... is more harder... is more harder...  :suicide1:

Hope you are correct about the scores though, 3-4 weeks out before we know.  

Well, I hope you are alive after that bullet traveled through your mouth.

If you are alive, I want you to know that I appreciated your sarcasm. That made me look at my grammar again.

 

[matt267 PE]

The gammar nazies have spoken. 

 

[smahurin]

Technically speaking, the passing score is determined by NCEES and recommended to the state licensing boards for acceptance.  Any state board can choose to accept that recommendation or modify the passing score.  In today's world, predominately the licensing boards all do accept the NCEES recommendation...

Interesting, thanks for the insight.  

 

[tj_PE]

The gammar nazies have spoken. 

Nazis* sorry I had to! ?????

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk

 

[RBHeadge PE]

However, I believe there still remains one licensing board that is mandated to consider veteran's points and apply those accordingly to the recommended passing score.  I've heard that board may be changing that stance. 

That's news to me. What State is that? It was my understanding that no board had ever overruled the NCESS pass/fail score to license someone who failed the test. 

 

[Audi Driver P.E.]

That's news to me. What State is that? It was my understanding that no board had ever overruled the NCESS pass/fail score to license someone who failed the test. 

Georgia or maybe Alabama I think.  One of those SE states.

 

[InfinityX2K4]

Well, I hope you are alive after that bullet traveled through your mouth.

If you are alive, I want you to know that I appreciated your sarcasm. That made me look at my grammar again.

:17:   I couldn't help it man, i needed something else to go through my brain besides wondering about the test results! 

 

[RBHeadge PE]

Georgia or maybe Alabama I think.  One of those SE states.

Thanks. I checked, it's Georgia. I stand corrected.

http://sos.ga.gov/index.php/licensing/plb/22/faq

A 5 or 10 point swing is pretty significant! I'm surprised that they give that much of a boost.

A surmised here and in other threads, one board accepting a lower pass score does have negative or complicating effects on transferring a license.