CPEES feedback

[IlPadrino]

I think that the main purpose of the EIT and PE examinations is to know if the person has the MINIMUM engineering knowledge for the safety of the public. Now, if the engineer had already passed this evaluating test, don't you think its discrimination just because the engineer didn't had his BS in the Country he is applying for? For people who's job is to test the professionalism of individuals, are they practicing what they are preaching? Or is it just fault of slacking on the job?
Anyway, I strongly agree that it is unfavorable. Would they rather see people with knowledge and skills go to waste?

If you read the NCEES newsletters you'll see there's a bit more to the equation (prestige has been mentioned at least once), but for the sake of discussion let's keep to "knowledge" and add "wisdom" (which is one order higher than knowledge). State boards use three factors to determine knowledge/wisdom: education, experience, and examination. You can't forgo education and experience just because you can pass an exam. Accreditation is essential to reasonably assessing education - for those that don't have a properly accredited degree, there's an alternative even if it's not as reasonable as it should be.

 

[Vishal]

If you read the NCEES newsletters you'll see there's a bit more to the equation (prestige has been mentioned at least once), but for the sake of discussion let's keep to "knowledge" and add "wisdom" (which is one order higher than knowledge). State boards use three factors to determine knowledge/wisdom: education, experience, and examination. You can't forgo education and experience just because you can pass an exam. Accreditation is essential to reasonably assessing education - for those that don't have a properly accredited degree, there's an alternative even if it's not as reasonable as it should be.

Accredition of degree to what extent? I am being asked to prove my basic math and sciences skills after a MS degree from a US university who has accepted my BS. Heck even on EI exam you have tons of math and science can't that be ued as enough indicator of my math and science knowledge or I should go back and take high school level courses after a masters degree in engineering. And what's up with humanities and social sciences (H&SS)? Just because I don't have the exact same credit hours in H&SS means that my "knowledge" is flawed to an extent that even my 4+ years of engineering experience coupled with an advance degree can't fulfil it ? I agree that the test is just "one of the criterion" to be a licensed engineer and others being education and experience.

It is just sometimes frustrating to be told that your BS degree is insufficient in areas like basic math, science and H&SS even with 4.5 years of professional experience and a Master's degree in engineering from a public school; and all this when your engineering credits in BS are 30 more than required for equivalency.

Just a thought...

 

[IlPadrino]

Accredition of degree to what extent? I am being asked to prove my basic math and sciences skills after a MS degree from a US university who has accepted my BS. Heck even on EI exam you have tons of math and ..

.

public school; and all this when your engineering credits in BS are 30 more than required for equivalency.

Just a thought...

Vish,

Please understand I'm just defending the process as being entirely consistent. There are those here that would have me believe they're being treated unfairly. For me, "fair" means free from favoritism or bias or impartial. Like it or not, the State board has chosen accredited BS as the requirement, not accredited MS. I know it's insulting but I still think it's fair. You're being treated like any person who doesn't have an accredited degree.

Regarding Humanities and Social Science requirements, I think this is a valid requirement for engineers...

Is the horse dead yet?

 

[Vishal]

^^ probably, being on the other side of the fence make the requirement "valid". Try being on the other side.. oh wel, this will never end....

The one thing I just fail to understand is if a person knows how to form a sentence why ask him to prove if he knows the aplphabets? It is common sense, if you are in high school doesn't that mean that you have passed the middle school??

 

[IlPadrino]

^^ probably, being on the other side of the fence make the requirement "valid". Try being on the other side.. oh wel, this will never end....
The one thing I just fail to understand is if a person knows how to form a sentence why ask him to prove if he knows the aplphabets? It is common sense, if you are in high school doesn't that mean that you have passed the middle school??

I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate. Do you think State boards should say Humanities and Social Sciences are totally unimportant to the Engineer?

Here's a succinct answer to what I think is really the question in your last paragraph... The MS curriculum is very different from the BS curriculum. Just because you have succeeded in an MS program doesn't mean you have a mastery of the BS program material. If you disagree with this, please show me a Venn Diagram of the BS and MS material of your specific specialty and then let's discuss further. My experience is the BS is an inch deep and a mile wide while the MS is a mile deep and an inch wide.

I think the mistake you're making is comparing your specific case to the general population. I trust you're more than qualified in the education department - but that's doesn't make it so everywhere else.

 

[Vishal]

I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate. Do you think State boards should say Humanities and Social Sciences are totally unimportant to the Engineer?
Here's a succinct answer to what I think is really the question in your last paragraph... The MS curriculum is very different from the BS curriculum. Just because you have succeeded in an MS program doesn't mean you have a mastery of the BS program material. If you disagree with this, please show me a Venn Diagram of the BS and MS material of your specific specialty and then let's discuss further. My experience is the BS is an inch deep and a mile wide while the MS is a mile deep and an inch wide.

I think the mistake you're making is comparing your specific case to the general population. I trust you're more than qualified in the education department - but that's doesn't make it so everywhere else.

You missed the point completely here. How can you judge my Masters without accepting the fact that I have passed my Bachelor's degree competently? A person can not go to MS without fulfilling the requirement of a BS degree, you are asking of treating them mutually exclusive. If a school that is accredited tells that the person applying for MS has his BS degree equivalent then how can some independent reviewers (who don't even hold an engineering degree) deny that? The school has qualified teachers, administrators, and above all accredition.

 

[IlPadrino]

You missed the point completely here. How can you judge my Masters without accepting the fact that I have passed my Bachelor's degree competently? A person can not go to MS without fulfilling the requirement of a BS degree, you are asking of treating them mutually exclusive. If a school that is accredited tells that the person applying for MS has his BS degree equivalent then how can some independent reviewers (who don't even hold an engineering degree) deny that? The school has qualified teachers, administrators, and above all accredition.

I don't think I missed the point... perhaps I'm just not explaining it right.

Here's what I think you're saying: If you've got an MS from a BS accredited school you shouldn't need an accredited BS.

Here's what I'm trying to say: Just because you got accepted into a MS program at a school with an accredited BS doesn't make your BS education accredited. To me this is obvious. There's not a school out there that can "accredit" another BS. They can only provide you with an accredited MS.

To answer your questions specifically: We're talking accreditation, not competence. And still, it is entirely possible (and I've seen it happen!) that a student accepted into an MS program is not competent at the BS level. A person *CAN* go to an MS without fulfilling the requirements of an accredited BS. CPEES is not judging the MS - it's only judging the BS - and they may say it's not equivalent to an accredited program - even if the person has an accredited MS.

Maybe I should break this down into a syllogism.

 

[Coolguru]

I don't think I made myself clear enough in my last message..I was assuming people reading the thread have experience with CPEES evaluations and other similar evaluations required by some states..For example in the State of Alabama a foreign graduate can have his transcripts evaluated from either CPEES or AACRAO..CPEES requires all docs mailed by University..AACRAO requires photocopies mailed by the candidate..I think unless you have gone through the process of actually traveling 8000 miles back home to try and conveince University officials to comply with CPEES requirements you dont know the boat that sinks me..My arguement is that does any of CPEES staff know how Universities operate in my part of the world...If not they have no right to have un-realistic demands...Its ok to have standards but why conflicting standards...A evaluation should be of the same level..why is there such stark difference between CPEES and AACRAO (which has been in business longer)..I think its because they have done thier homework and CPEES has not..
I am ok with the onus being on me..But when you have tried everything and still cant meet what the CPEES states as bare minimum..there is either something wrong with you, the way your University operates or CPEES....The point raised earlier by a member was its descrimination against the place you graduated..well I dont think growing up in India I had an option of attending a ABET accredited school or would have envisoned the nightmare that has followed since...I think there are still grounds for a lawsuit..especial since CPEES deoes not have any know-how of how things work..the process is un-realistic

As for a lawsuit working..just compliants were enough to shut down ECEI..remember

Well, I tried to establish NCEES record to bypass the CPEES, know what? I am exhausted. Even the NCEES record needs transcripts from India. But one good things NCEES accepts any other evaluations besides CPEES. The point is ECE evaluation costs only $135. However, that did not solve my problem because the State board still want CPEES evaluation. I argued with them:

1. I have an advanced degree from the State's one of the most prestigious technological university. They dont give a damn about.

2. They dont give a damn about NCEES record

3. They dont care about ECE evaluation.

This is fact!

My understanding is that they have raised CPEES to the status of God whose blessing is essential on top of everything. My question to you all: HAS ANYONE EXPLORED WHO ARE THE EVALUATORS AT CPEES? You will be surprised to learn that none of them (except the Director) has an advanced degree such as Ph.D, none of them are either P.E. or EIT. All of them have degrees in most esoteric and obscure subjects. My opionion is that they will understand the difference between stress and strain forget the whole gamut of engineering. These people are made responsible for engineerig document evaluation. The fact is when we enrolled at American University, the Ph.D. professors have better understanding wheter our transcripts were flawed/substandard or do not meet the engineering quality. I am open to challenge by even an MIT Professor to evaluate my document, btu CPEES? Its an insult to my education.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

You know, I somewhat agree with your argument against the CPEES, but I really don't think that this fight is worth your time. If, at the beginning of this whole saga, you had bit the bullet, and resigned yourself to the fact that you MUST obtain a transcript from your undergraduate program in India, you would already be done by now. It may be a royal pain in the ass to get your transcript from India, but look at the amount of work you have already put yourself through just to avoid that one task...and you STILL have to get the transcript. My suggestion to you, before you go on another wild goose chase, is to go ahead and play by the rules today, then tomorrow you can fight the system.

 

[jaxengr]

Here are my 2 cents on the issue....

Argument A: If a person has an advanced degree from a US university, it can be considered that his/her BS was good enough for admission to MS and hence good enough for FE/PE

Argument B: I will buy argument A for Engineering/Math/Science, but not for humanities and social science and you have to be competent in those subjects to become a PE.

Argument C: IF and only if argument B is true, then why not test an individual's competence in humanities and social science in the PE exam? Just like California has an extra exam (Seismic?), states which insist that humanities are very important for becoming a PE can have an extra exam for humanities. Those who have completed BS in USA should not find it difficult, and those who have foreign degree, have an oppurtunity to show they have required knowledge.

 

[IlPadrino]

Here are my 2 cents on the issue....
Argument A: If a person has an advanced degree from a US university, it can be considered that his/her BS was good enough for admission to MS and hence good enough for FE/PE

Argument B: I will buy argument A for Engineering/Math/Science, but not for humanities and social science and you have to be competent in those subjects to become a PE.

Argument C: IF and only if argument B is true, then why not test an individual's competence in humanities and social science in the PE exam? Just like California has an extra exam (Seismic?), states which insist that humanities are very important for becoming a PE can have an extra exam for humanities. Those who have completed BS in USA should not find it difficult, and those who have foreign degree, have an oppurtunity to show they have required knowledge.

Regarding Argument A, "good enough" does not equal "accredited"... and that's assuming I'd agree with "good enough" (which I don't - I think it's silly considering the difference in undergraduate and graduate education).

 

[kevo_55]

I know that I'm going to get tore up on this but it must be said....

Having a PhD doesn't make you a better or worse engineer. I must stress this because I'm reading some "better than thou" attitude from a few people in this thread.

That being said, you ALWAYS must play by the state board's rules. For example, lets say you have a California Structural license and will be doing some structural work in Minnesota. Of course, a CA SE seal is harder to get than a MN PE seal. Let's say that you do not hold a MN seal but simply sign and seal the drawings and calculations for this MN job with your CA SE seal. Would the California seal be accepted in Minnesota? No, it would not. Even if you must take more exams and jump through more hoops in order to get a CA SE, you must still play by the MN board's rules and get a MN seal.

I really see no diffrence between having an "advanced" seal and having an "advanced" degree in this situation. You'll get beat down just the same. I'd just bite the bullet and play the game that CPEES is having you do.

Ok, let the $hit fly.

 

[Guest]

Ok, let the $hit fly.

JR

 

[rdbse]

I would suggest for engineers with foriegn degrees to work on changing the university where you recieved your undergraduate degree. I don't understand why the major complaint is towards the evaluator (CPEES) and not more towards the university.

With more foreign graduate engineers moving to the US, it would seem that more people are having the same proplems with proper transcipts. Alumni should pull their weight and demand that the universities change their system.

 

[Coolguru]

Here are my 2 cents on the issue....
Argument A: If a person has an advanced degree from a US university, it can be considered that his/her BS was good enough for admission to MS and hence good enough for FE/PE

Argument B: I will buy argument A for Engineering/Math/Science, but not for humanities and social science and you have to be competent in those subjects to become a PE.

Argument C: IF and only if argument B is true, then why not test an individual's competence in humanities and social science in the PE exam? Just like California has an extra exam (Seismic?), states which insist that humanities are very important for becoming a PE can have an extra exam for humanities. Those who have completed BS in USA should not find it difficult, and those who have foreign degree, have an oppurtunity to show they have required knowledge.

You are genius! I like the way you made this argument. Let me put the record straight! I passed PE in Dec. 2007 (Oct. Exam), since then I am trying to get my reciprocity. My promotion is put on hold. My board is aware that my evalution will be unfavorable and they will still allow me to get reciprocity, but since it is a rule that CPEES evaluation is required there is no way they can waive that requirement. Ironically/interestingly NCEES does accepts ECE evaluation besides CPEES. I got my evaluation from ECE with my BS equivalent to US ABET accredited degree with 3.02GPA. I dont know how long it will be for CPEES to evaluate my document, I am still waiting!

Any thoughts!

 

[benbo]

Why is this still an issue? Didn't you win the lawsuit you were filing?

 

[kobegasol]

to all those who go a deficiency abet evaluation from either ecei or cpees,

What solution did you take? I have a deficiency of 12 units for math and science from my ECEI evaluation but what are the next steps?

Does any abet accredited school here accept those evaluations so that I will just try to convert my degree to any US university degree???

 

[IlPadrino]

You are genius!

See... your standards *are* lower than those we ABET-accredited graduates hold. If this is genius, I'd hate to see "minimally competent".

 

[lzh007]

I would like to get evaluation thru CPEES despite any result. Could any any one give me a detailed list of the document CPEES requires for a foreign degree? I need to arrange my trip to prepare my document within 3 months after application.