Cowboys' canopy collapes....

[SuperAlpha]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/05/03/cowboys.c...yzed/index.html

Discuss:

My guess is the engineering firm and the construction firm will be sued. They better be licensed in TX, have malpractice insurance, and have plenty of documention to back up their engineering decisions. (This is why you document in a controlled manner or use engineering notebooks with witness.) Supposedly it was a Pennsylvania firm that designed the roof.

http://www.kare11.com/news/national/nation...?storyid=672694

Calls to Summit Structures LLC, one of the companies involved in building the $4 million facility, were not returned to The Associated Press on Sunday.
A Pennsylvania court ruled in December 2006 that Summit was negligent in the design and construction of a membrane-covered building that collapsed in 2003 after a major snowstorm in Philadelphia. The building was constructed for the Philadelphia Regional Port Authority.

http://www.summitstructures.com/

I do not see their firm registered in TX for engineering structures like this.

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/search_firm.ph...amp;txtExpires=

I cannot find their registration in PA either! Damn....

Maybe they are exempt since this is a standard product of theirs? I don't see how this is NOT custom engineered. They do offer design services above their standard product line.

 

[DVINNY]

Payne said Cowboys staff photographers were up in the metal framework beneath the canopy to film the practice session and "actually rode the building down with the storm."

^^ Right there is the 'out' for the mentioned designers. Photogs probably were not included in the 'live load'.

 

[Road Guy]

so was this a permanent "tent" or was this something they put up just for practice (and took down again)?

I know the falcons have a huge indoor facility but its permanenet, beams, metal roof, etc...

 

[MA_PE]

^^ Right there is the 'out' for the mentioned designers. Photogs probably were not included in the 'live load'.

I'd hesitate to make speculations like that without the facts. I can't see any organization authorizing their photographers to "climb around in the rafters". I suspect that there were catwalks in place for just such activities.

Fabric building are unique animals and very difficult to design for a "worst case" wind load. I saw one news report of a "microburst" in the area that may have triggered the collapse. It will be intersting to see the results of the investigation. One of our local newscasters kept announcing that some videographer "got the entire collpase on film". They showed some footage of the building coming down on top of him, but IMO there was nothing in the clip that even hinted at where the collapse originated or how it progressed so I wonder if there's any useful images to help identify what happened.

 

[snickerd3]

I'd hesitate to make specilations like that without the facts. I can't see any organization authorizing their photographers to "climb around in the rafters". I suspect that there were catwalks in place for just such activities.
Fabric building are unique animals and very difficult to design for a "worst case" wind load. I saw one news report of a "microburst" in the area that may have triggered the collapse. It will be intersting to see the results of the investigation. One of our local newscasters kept announcing that some videographer "got the entire collpase on film". They showed some footage of the building coming down on top of him, but IMO there was nothing in the clip that even hinted at where the collapse originated or how it progressed so I wonder if there's any useful images to help identify what happened.

Those microbursts are nothing to sneeze at. One of those took out several blocks in the industrial park around where I grew up. Flattened the whole area like a pancake...including brick buildings. Luckily it happened overnight so no one was killed.

 

[MGX]

Microbursts are also known to drop planes from the sky. The design load for the structure likely did not take an occurance into consideration.

 

[DVINNY]

They played that video on CNN HLN. It was a rockin' for a while before it came down. Pretty odd stuff.

 

[SuperAlpha]

Regardless - I found no evidence that Summit Structures is a registered firm in Texas (or PA) and no evidence of licensed PEs... hmmm....

 

[mudpuppy]

Interesting article in the Dallas Morning News this morning:

The Texas Board of Professional Engineers is investigating the city of Irving over issues related to the Dallas Cowboys practice facility that collapsed, permanently paralyzing one man and injuring 11 others.
Lance Kinney, a spokesman for the engineering board, declined Thursday to elaborate on the scope of the inquiry. Irving officials said they had no comment.

The city earlier this week said it has no record of the engineer who signed off on the project's design. The city also said it does not have the building's blueprints or specifications on file, even though state officials said Thursday that those documents should be kept for the life of the building.

Texas requires officials who enforce engineering-related laws to accept planning documents only if they bear an engineer's seal. Violations are punishable by up to a year in jail.

The engineering board's investigators also are researching whether they could take action against facility builder Summit Structures and its parent company. The firms lacked a required state license when they designed and built the Cowboys facility.

Kinney, the engineering board spokesman, said it wasn't clear whether Summit and its parent, Cover-all Building Systems, could be punished for not having a license because the work occurred six years ago. Also, there is no indication the firms, which are based in Pennsylvania and Canada, are now doing business in Texas.
Criminal enforcement requires action by local prosecutors. The board's powers are limited to issuing fines of up to $3,000 per violation and taking away licenses.

 

[SuperAlpha]

Interesting article in the Dallas Morning News this morning:

I emailed the TBPE, on monday, a copy of my original post within this thread, and their response was that they will open an investigation.

 

[SuperAlpha]

The statute of limitations would probably be the reason for Summit possibly getting a free pass since it was 6 years ago. A structure has been illegally designed, and possibly poorly designed or poorly constructed. The city of Irving should have caught it on day 1, since the blueprints and other permits must be handled accordingly.

SUmmit may skate right now, but all new Summit business (including recent 2 years) should be stopped until they are properly licensed and registered.

 

[SuperAlpha]

The DMN article stated that Texas A&M recently had Summit engineer and build a facility for them. It was completed 6 months ago. Summit has no engineer of record for the design....looks like this one could be trouble for them...would they order the building unfit for use?

Summit, not registered in TX and has no TX PEs, claims that they build to local building codes.....I think they are going to have an avalanche of legal problems....

 

[DVINNY]

^^^ Sounds like it

 

[MA_PE]

SA, sorry I don't see your point about the importance of the TX registration. I understand that for monitoring purposes and given the current licensing system it is likely a violation if there was never a TX registered individual stamping the documents, but that does not necessarily mean there was any serious design issues. I can't see organizations like the Dallas Cowboys and Texas A&M hiring fly-by-night firms to design structures for them. Many sports-type facilities are designed by national or international firms that may or may not have someone on staff that is licensed in the specific location where the project is located. That does not mean that the engineers are not licensed somewhere else and are not competent in their field.

The real issue is what brought the structure down. Physical loads, design, and actual construction details....not who has a stamp and who doesn't.

 

[SuperAlpha]

SA, sorry I don't see your point about the importance of the TX registration. I understand that for monitoring purposes and given the current licensing system it is likely a violation if there was never a TX registered individual stamping the documents, but that does not necessarily mean there was any serious design issues. I can't see organizations like the Dallas Cowboys and Texas A&M hiring fly-by-night firms to design structures for them. Many sports-type facilities are designed by national or international firms that may or may not have someone on staff that is licensed in the specific location where the project is located. That does not mean that the engineers are not licensed somewhere else and are not competent in their field.
The real issue is what brought the structure down. Physical loads, design, and actual construction details....not who has a stamp and who doesn't.

Illegal engineering is what this is. Although it may be "competent" it is still illegal.

License reciprocation still requires the process of getting the license in the target state. I know a national firm whos main principle is a PE under 3 disciplines in Texas, even though TX does not specify the discipline. He reciprocates with almost all 50 states (including Canada and Mexico) and spends ~50k/year on renewals for his licenses ALONE!

Summit has no PEs in Pennsylvania and is not even a registered firm in Pennsylvania. I did not look up their Canadian offices, however the Canadian laws are MUCH MORE STRICT THAN the US states! For example, Quebec requires a PE for all engineering.

 

[MA_PE]

SA: I'm not going to debate the licensing point all. and FWIW, I completely agree with your Canadian refernce. However, at this point, my interest is in what made a large public structure collapse catastrophically.

If you have a car crash there is a reason for the crash (mechanical failure, driver error, weather conditions, etc.). Whether the driver had a license drive or not is not the reason that the car crashed, it only adds to any legal charges.

 

[SuperAlpha]

I understand. I too would like to see the actual reason for the failure. It could have been wrongly constructed or weather related. I find it odd that the term "microburst" is thrown around without ANY proof of such event.

 

[Supe]

Uh oh, looks like we've got ourselves a fibber on the ol' resume!

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6439923.html

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Uh oh, looks like we've got ourselves a fibber on the ol' resume!
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6439923.html

Looks like Mr. Jacobs might be losing his license over this mess.

 

[SuperAlpha]

Scott Jacobs is registered in Texas but the firm JCI aka Jacobs Consulting Inc is not registered in Texas, a violation of law.

If Mr. Jacobs had *directly* supervised the work of an employee of his company, then he is good for that....although not in great shape.