Cheating on exams in college

[EM_PS]

If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

yes.

 

[Greg C]

I know of many students who made straight A's in high school, yet could not score 1000 on SAT (old 1600 system) even after specialized tutoring. That tells me that the straight A's were not legitimate. .....Okay, now that I've got that out, let me say that I despise cheating.

I did a bit project while in college about academic honesty and cheating. The main cause of cheating is that students felt they were being treated unfairly by the professor and they were trying to make things even. I do not condone nor accept cheating on any type of exam or test.

I will have to disagree with Mary above. I got great grades in High School and bombed the SAT. I got great grades in College. I was the one who was doing all the homework and teaching everyone else and then getting 100's on the exams. I went to grad school at Cornell and had a solid B+ average. (Pretty good considering that it one of the top grad schools in the country and did 2 1/2 years of classes in 9 months) I went out into the 'real' world, took the Structures I exam, passed the first try. I took the Structures II exam, passed the first try, and took the Civil exam and passed the first try. Standardized tests (the SAT) do not test the ability of a person to learn or the ability for a person to perform in the real world. My College has recently done away with SAT scores realizing that they do not give any information about a person. I knew people in my high school who were dumb as doornails and scored 1400 - 1500 on the old SAT just because they did standardized tests well.

 

[Carlito]

Good points, Greg C.

While valid for a population overall, standardized tests do not always tell the truth about every single individual.

It is also comforting to hear that some decision makers at higher institutions are seeing that and taking appropriate corrective action.

 

[sehad]

^^^If it does not tell the truth about an individual, how can it represent the popoulation?

 

[snickerd3]

If a tree falls and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?

That's one of my FIL favorite jokes. He is one of those who will tell his joke of the day to everyone he encounters...kind of annoying.

 

[Carlito]

^^^If it does not tell the truth about an individual, how can it represent the popoulation?

Well, doesn't the average family have something like 2.4 children?

 

[sehad]

^^Of course, I see the point BUT I have always said that the ACT (never took the SATs) was not a true intelligence test. People making 30+ in my college were flunking out of my enginnering classes while others making 24 25 were passing flying colors.

Meaning, that the test actually tests your ability to take a test...not your intelligence.

 

[benbo]

I knew people in my high school who were dumb as doornails and scored 1400 - 1500 on the old SAT just because they did standardized tests well.

I've got a feeling this is pretty rare. Just as I suspect that your situation is fairly rare. But in your case they were able to take everything into account and you got the opportunities. The studies are all over the place, but most tend to support what you say, that grades are better predictors than SAT, but the combination is the best still -

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jL_ea6b...vAKOmAD91C1DC81

Colleges, especially really selective colleges, use all the means they can. Standardized tests are just one tool that a college can use (or choose not to use). Some colleges use them because grade inflation is rampant in many high schools.

In my opinion, success in college depends on things far less tangible - interest, work ethic, are you ready.

In my case I had high grades and high SATs. I got accepted to some good schools, and fortunately chose a fairly inexpensive one to attend. Maybe I had a premonition. But after three years I dropped out of school (with less than a year to go for a degree). My grades had steadily gone downhill. I was just plain burnt out on school and the pressure my folks put on me. I would have been better going to a JC, joining the service, or working right after high school - getting some discipline back. It wasn't until several years later that I went back and finished up.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

That's one of my FIL favorite jokes. He is one of those who will tell his joke of the day to everyone he encounters...kind of annoying.

What joke? It's a paradox, I believe.

The jokey one is "If a man is talking in the forest with no women around, is he still wrong?"

 

[Guest]

The jokey one is "If a man is talking in the forest with no women around, is he still wrong?"

Nice one !! :appl: :bowdown: :respect:

:Locolaugh: :Locolaugh:

JR

 

[EM_PS]

In my opinion, success in college depends on things far less tangible - interest, work ethic, are you ready.In my case I had high grades and high SATs. I got accepted to some good schools, and fortunately chose a fairly inexpensive one to attend. Maybe I had a premonition. But after three years I dropped out of school (with less than a year to go for a degree). My grades had steadily gone downhill. I was just plain burnt out on school and the pressure my folks put on me. I would have been better going to a JC, joining the service, or working right after high school - getting some discipline back. It wasn't until several years later that I went back and finished up.

Great comments here. My 1st time thru school, i partied for 2 yrs, then worked my *** off to grad on time, struggling to just top a 3 gpa. I was beyond burnt out upon graduating (geology), and consequently never achieved overly much once i entered prof. work arena. Fast forward 20 yrs to reentering a University to get the ABET/EAC degree, and I plow thru in 3 yrs, graduating magna cum laude, while commuting 70 minutes (one-way) and with 2 children born during that time frame - the will & determination was there, even as my school situation had become exponentially more difficult than the first time thru. I would never fault teenagers coming out of high school for making decisions that may not entirely parallel with my thoughts. The armed services, yes even in this age are a great experience & opportunity, JC's are as good as the bigger schools IMO, and working straight out of highschool can lead to opportunities down the road that may be otherwise unaccessible were college to have been the course.

 

[SSmith]

^Have you sent him your explanation? Maybe you should - maybe he still remembers that.

I just spoke with him on the phone. He still remembers. Not sure how its going to turn out.
I have recently moved back to Alabama with work. So I am working the comity process for the past few months.

I am at the point now that I need 1 more PE for reference for my comity application. Working Federal Government means very few PEs available (outside of USACE). The engineering board tells me that I can use a professor from school. And guess who is the only PE in the department? Yep. The one that accused my group and another of cheating. I have made the 2 hour drive back to Tuscaloosa to explain my position with him, but he has not made any of my appointments with him.

Today, I call explaining my situation to him. He repeats my name and asks "if there were ethics questions about me when I was in school." I reply with "yes, you levied cheating accusations on 2 groups for one of your projects but no accusations were brought against me specifically." He goes starts to talk about the ethical situation he is in. I acknowledged his position and told him that if it is a problem let me know and Ill move on. He says it won't be a problem and that ends the conversation.

*sighs*

What are the odds of me making it through this with a Alabama PE license? What happens if he sends in the bomb and says I have questionable character?

 

[IlPadrino]

What are the odds of me making it through this with a Alabama PE license? What happens if he sends in the bomb and says I have questionable character?

As you already know... it's the sole discretion of the board. Still, I've never heard of anyone "blackballed" for licensure because of a bad reference. Anyone else?

How specific is the reference requirement? There are plenty of PEs in the DoD... USACE, NAVFAC, and AFCESA (I think). Are you sure no loosely-coupled coworkers (i.e. second- and third-order) can give you a reference?

 

[jeb6294]

I got accused of "cheating" in one of my courses in college.

Our professor gave us a take home mid-term. In the course of reviewing my notes to try and figure out how to solve one of the problems, I started going back over one of the handouts the prof had given us. It was a xeroxed copy of a page from an older textbook so, since I was in the library anyway, I figured I'd check it out and see if I could find anything else that was helpful.

What I discovered is that the professor had made his mid-term up by copying example problems out of this older textbook word-for-word...didn't even bother changing any of the numbers. I still went through the exam on my own, but it was certainly helpful being able to go back and see where I had made any errors.

There were a group of 3 or 4 of us who ended up being the only ones in the class who aced the test so obviously we must have cheated. We all got 0% on the exam and a lecture about how we were lucky we weren't being reported. Immediately after class there was a line of us outside the head of the department's office. After we told him what had happened, the professor was the one getting the lecture for being lazy and we were being complimented for "taking the initiative to review outside sources" (or something like that).

BTW, the professor was here from France and was not invited back to teach the next semester.

 

[C-Dog]

... the professor was the one getting the lecture for being lazy and we were being complimented for "taking the initiative to review outside sources" (or something like that).
BTW, the professor was here from France and was not invited back to teach the next semester.

Good for you. The prof was damn lazy. Always change the questions some if you take from another source. When I write exams, I will typically use other texts as references, and only use the theme of the question. I have taken questions, firectly out of the book we used in class verbatum that they were assigned for homework, and students still get them wrong. I try to make the test with gimmes, average difficulty, and challenging questions. I am amazed how many students get the gimmies wrong. The challenging ones are an attempt to separate the A students from the rest of the class.

 

[SSmith]

As you already know... it's the sole discretion of the board. Still, I've never heard of anyone "blackballed" for licensure because of a bad reference. Anyone else?
How specific is the reference requirement? There are plenty of PEs in the DoD... USACE, NAVFAC, and AFCESA (I think). Are you sure no loosely-coupled coworkers (i.e. second- and third-order) can give you a reference?

The references don't have to come from the federal government. The PE references just have to have "personal knowledge of my engineering experience." I have had 2 PEs in my new office sign the reference form, but they left they both checked that they "did not have personal knowledge of my engineering experience." The sad part is that one is my new division chief. Instead of getting into questionable ethical grounds with my senior rater, I just submitted them both hoping that they would suffice. They didn't. So I am back at step 1.
If anyone has any "ideas" about how to further tackle this problem, please feel free to drop me a PM to talk about them. Thanks!

 

[benbo]

SSmith-

I understand why you want comity in the state where you reside, but I was wondering if you actually need this PE to perform your current job? I'm really just curious where a PE fits in with federal government work.

 

[SSmith]

SSmith-I understand why you want comity in the state where you reside, but I was wondering if you actually need this PE to perform your current job? I'm really just curious where a PE fits in with federal government work.

It is not a requirement for the job explicitly. But having the tag greatly reduces the amount of friction between the program office engineer staff and the PE engineers on the contractor side of the house. Some of them have a perception that government engineers can't cut the mustard in private industry. The PE label goes along way to reducing those kinds of barriers.

 

[Dleg]

^ Agreed, from the regulator's side as well. That's been the main benefit, in fact, in me getting my PE. I no longer hear "But you're not even a PE, so how can you tell me my plans don't meet code?" anymore....