When to start looking or change your attitude?

[mrt406]

I tried thoes salery.com things and they show really low figures, im not sure what its based on. The way I find out is by asking around, if you can net work well enough you can figure out what people are making and more importantly what contracting agencies are paying vs a direct hire employee of an E&C or even a client company, you can have 2 exact same position with maybe just a small amount of varience in years of experiecne (like 5 years at the most) and the salery differeance can be 100% different because one is a contractor and one is direct hire. You have to know what the largest amount of money you can make is that the market will bare, not the medium otherwise you will always be broke and forced to work somewhere you dont want to, if they can always get away with paying you a substandard wage you will never be able to stack cash away in the bank and you will always be dependant. Its a tangled web depending on area and disipline and when one of my colueges agrees to work for a reduced rate I get kind of upset becuase it effects the rest of us by setting a negitive precident, they think oh we can use the "bad market" to rip off engineers when the "bad market" really does not affect his specific position otherwise the position would not be open lolj. IF there is no work there is no work but if there is a position we should be getting full blown fatty checks otherwise what is the point of even being an engineer.

I really hope you're not expected to write reports as part of your job. Seriously... didn't you have any English/Writing classes you had to take as part of your curriculum? That is... if you did, in fact, actually go to college.

It's hard enough trying to take the stuff you say seriously without the horrendous spelling and grammar. I mean... what would your "colueges" say if they saw this?

 

[rppearso]

+1 with the asking online
I'm looking now, but I am not "changing my attitude", well, not much anyways. My supervisors supervisor (1+1) has a "sacrifice your life for the company" outlook on life. Its what he has always done and he thinks that everyone should do it as well. Now he has gotten some of the managers to go along with it, so that was my cue to start looking.

I got an "interview" Q/A email a while back that was related to this... here are a couple of the responses:

Q: What is your advice to professionals?

A: Like Narayan Murthy had said “ love your job and not your company because you never know when your company will stop loving you. In the same lines, love yourself and your family needs more than the company's needs. Companies can keep coming and going; family will always remain the same. Make money for yourself first and simultaneously make money for the company, not the other way around.

Q: What is your biggest pain point with companies?

A: When a company does well, its CEO will address the entire company saying, ˜well done guys, it is YOUR company, keep up the hard work, I am with you. But when the slowdown happens and the company does not do so well, the same CEO will say, It is MY company and to save the company, I have to take tough decisions including asking people to go. So think about your financial stability first; when you get laid off, your kids will complain to you and not your boss.

I don't agree with either of those statements personally. If you don't love both your job AND your company, you'll never be truly happy or successful in my book. If you don't love your company, you should go work for someone else. I do agree that your family always should come first no matter what however.

I don't agree with the statement about making money for yourself. To me that means that the money is more important than the career. I think in the opposite fashion. Money isn't everything, but having a job you love and are passionate about is. You'll never be happy if you're always chasing money.

It's a double bonus if you can find a job that you have a passion that also brings home the bucks.

As far as the second Q/A goes, I have never been in that position with my company. But from a business point, it makes sense. Can't blame the CEO for letting people go in a downturn. It sucks, but that's just business.

The money is your carrer, a "passion" that does not bring in the big bucks is called a hobbie, I totally agree with thoes statements, I could care less about my company, I am there to provide a service and make money I am not a share holder in my company. If I were a full share share holder then it would be a different story. Positions, company given titles, and company authority (head manager, etc) mean nothing to me, personal titles mean everything (PE, EIT, MS, PhD, PMP) becuase you take them with you. Companys come and go, but you are the engineer, you are the bad ass, you may be temporarily dependant on the company for a paycheck but your company does not define you as an engineer so long as you do good work and can net work within the organization for a good reference witha coluege you respect.

 

[MechGuy]

+1 with the asking online
I'm looking now, but I am not "changing my attitude", well, not much anyways. My supervisors supervisor (1+1) has a "sacrifice your life for the company" outlook on life. Its what he has always done and he thinks that everyone should do it as well. Now he has gotten some of the managers to go along with it, so that was my cue to start looking.

I got an "interview" Q/A email a while back that was related to this... here are a couple of the responses:

Q: What is your advice to professionals?

A: Like Narayan Murthy had said “ love your job and not your company because you never know when your company will stop loving you. In the same lines, love yourself and your family needs more than the company's needs. Companies can keep coming and going; family will always remain the same. Make money for yourself first and simultaneously make money for the company, not the other way around.

Q: What is your biggest pain point with companies?

A: When a company does well, its CEO will address the entire company saying, ˜well done guys, it is YOUR company, keep up the hard work, I am with you. But when the slowdown happens and the company does not do so well, the same CEO will say, It is MY company and to save the company, I have to take tough decisions including asking people to go. So think about your financial stability first; when you get laid off, your kids will complain to you and not your boss.

I don't agree with either of those statements personally. If you don't love both your job AND your company, you'll never be truly happy or successful in my book. If you don't love your company, you should go work for someone else. I do agree that your family always should come first no matter what however.

I don't agree with the statement about making money for yourself. To me that means that the money is more important than the career. I think in the opposite fashion. Money isn't everything, but having a job you love and are passionate about is. You'll never be happy if you're always chasing money.

It's a double bonus if you can find a job that you have a passion that also brings home the bucks.

As far as the second Q/A goes, I have never been in that position with my company. But from a business point, it makes sense. Can't blame the CEO for letting people go in a downturn. It sucks, but that's just business.

The money is your carrer, a "passion" that does not bring in the big bucks is called a hobbie, I totally agree with thoes statements, I could care less about my company, I am there to provide a service and make money I am not a share holder in my company. If I were a full share share holder then it would be a different story. Positions, company given titles, and company authority (head manager, etc) mean nothing to me, personal titles mean everything (PE, EIT, MS, PhD, PMP) becuase you take them with you. Companys come and go, but you are the engineer, you are the bad ass, you may be temporarily dependant on the company for a paycheck but your company does not define you as an engineer so long as you do good work and can net work within the organization for a good reference witha coluege you respect.

I'm sorry for anyone who has or will ever have to work with you.

 

[rppearso]

+1 with the asking online
I'm looking now, but I am not "changing my attitude", well, not much anyways. My supervisors supervisor (1+1) has a "sacrifice your life for the company" outlook on life. Its what he has always done and he thinks that everyone should do it as well. Now he has gotten some of the managers to go along with it, so that was my cue to start looking.

I got an "interview" Q/A email a while back that was related to this... here are a couple of the responses:

Q: What is your advice to professionals?

A: Like Narayan Murthy had said “ love your job and not your company because you never know when your company will stop loving you. In the same lines, love yourself and your family needs more than the company's needs. Companies can keep coming and going; family will always remain the same. Make money for yourself first and simultaneously make money for the company, not the other way around.

Q: What is your biggest pain point with companies?

A: When a company does well, its CEO will address the entire company saying, ˜well done guys, it is YOUR company, keep up the hard work, I am with you. But when the slowdown happens and the company does not do so well, the same CEO will say, It is MY company and to save the company, I have to take tough decisions including asking people to go. So think about your financial stability first; when you get laid off, your kids will complain to you and not your boss.

I don't agree with either of those statements personally. If you don't love both your job AND your company, you'll never be truly happy or successful in my book. If you don't love your company, you should go work for someone else. I do agree that your family always should come first no matter what however.

I don't agree with the statement about making money for yourself. To me that means that the money is more important than the career. I think in the opposite fashion. Money isn't everything, but having a job you love and are passionate about is. You'll never be happy if you're always chasing money.

It's a double bonus if you can find a job that you have a passion that also brings home the bucks.

As far as the second Q/A goes, I have never been in that position with my company. But from a business point, it makes sense. Can't blame the CEO for letting people go in a downturn. It sucks, but that's just business.

The money is your carrer, a "passion" that does not bring in the big bucks is called a hobbie, I totally agree with thoes statements, I could care less about my company, I am there to provide a service and make money I am not a share holder in my company. If I were a full share share holder then it would be a different story. Positions, company given titles, and company authority (head manager, etc) mean nothing to me, personal titles mean everything (PE, EIT, MS, PhD, PMP) becuase you take them with you. Companys come and go, but you are the engineer, you are the bad ass, you may be temporarily dependant on the company for a paycheck but your company does not define you as an engineer so long as you do good work and can net work within the organization for a good reference witha coluege you respect.

I'm sorry for anyone who has or will ever have to work with you.

People enjoy working with me and most people I went to school with and work with now did not go into engineering to work for non profiti charities so they understand that cash flow is king, they have families and aspirations that require substantial money as well, I sometimes feel like I am talking to habitat for humanity or some non profit on here. Even client company videos (oil companies) I have watched have said we are all here to make money, no one is there to work for free.

 

[Dexman PE]

Here's rppearso's world:

<$100k - Non-profit organization / poor farm / working for "free"

>$100k - fatty money.

What an idiot.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Methinks rppearso doesn't understand the concept of a "non-profit" company. It doesn't mean that salaries are low or non-existent at those companies. It just means that they do not produce a profit for shareholders or owners at the end of every year. In fact, I know several engineers that work for Battelle, which is a non-profit company, that make what rppearso would consider "fatty money".

 

[EM_PS]

I thought this article in PE mag a few months back was pretty good:

December 2009 NSPE TODAY: OUTLOOK

Some Fatherly Thoughts for Young Professionals

BY EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR LARRY JACOBSON

Some people reading this column are engineering students or newly minted graduates or perhaps newly licensed PEs. So far you've made good choices and worked hard, and you are now entering into a professional career that has the potential to provide you and your future family with a very comfortable life. Please indulge this grandfather a few minutes to offer some thoughts about career building.

Keep Your Options Open. If you could know where you'd end up at age 70, you could precisely tailor your experiences and education to that specific end. But since we only know where we are now and the general direction we are headed, the only rational way forward is to keep as many doors open for as long as possible to allow the most possibilities to develop.

Life is Time Sensitive. It is practical and cost effective to do the big things in relatively narrow time frames. Advanced educational degrees and getting licensed as a PE are far easier to achieve the closer you are to graduation. Establishing a family and building equity in a home are also time sensitive. The most common reason for missing out on opportunities is lack of money. Time is absolute. Money is relative. Do the important things, and somehow you'll figure out how to pay for them.

Seek the Broadest Possible Experiences.

Take on seemingly unrelated experiences, and do some things you really don't like to do and don't feel comfortable doing. Ultimately, your economic value is vastly increased if you understand how dissimilar systems interrelate. Earning a promotion requires some experience in the disciplines and the departments you will be asked to manage. The more—and the more varied—experience you have, the higher you are likely to go. You don't have to be successful in all areas. Just experience them and know how all technical areas interrelate. One caveat: Don't judge what's important by what your current employer thinks is important. Think about what's going to make you more attractive to future employers. Choose employers for the potential experience, making the paycheck secondary. If you have the right experiences, the paychecks will surely follow.

Become a Salesperson. Sales are the life blood for any business. If you ever want to be considered for a top management position in any company, you will have to demonstrate some sales experience. You don't have to be remotely successful, but you do need experience selling to customers and clients. Find your way on to the sales team, and make presentations to clients. Someday it will be important for you to describe the lessons learned from your short sojourn in sales.

Character is Paramount. Maintain your integrity in all situations, even if it costs you your job. It is very difficult to hire senior people who are excellent practitioners and have unblemished records for honesty and ethics. That's because over the course of a long career many people make poor choices that disqualify them from top positions at the end of their careers, when the stakes are the highest and the competition is keen.

Get Security Clearance. Look for an opportunity to get a federal security clearance. Some of the best paying jobs require personnel with secret, top secret, or lettered levels of clearance. Clearance is difficult to get. Once you have it, however, it can always be revived or upgraded for the new project that inevitably must begin on short notice.

Earn Additional Degrees. A master's degree in engineering is becoming standard for meaningful levels of responsibility in engineering firms and manufacturing companies. The advanced engineering degree, combined with an MBA, is very attractive. This is another time-sensitive acquisition, and the great thing about advanced degrees is once earned, they become permanent parts of your resume.

Read Broadly. Get into the "soft subjects" and develop new vocabularies to converse with the broadest possible range of future clients and employers. You already know how to think like an engineer. Now learn how to think like an artist or an accountant or a marketer. They are all your future clients, and they each understand the world in ways that are really quite different.

Financial Freedom. Always live a little below your current paycheck. That's not hard to do if you live on whatever you made before the last raise with the difference regularly added to savings or investments. Living on a little less than your current paycheck gives you choices, and having choices means freedom to seize opportunities that come along. You'll also be able to sleep better.

Wait Patiently. Lastly, put yourself in a position where you don't have to force good things to happen, but rather, good things present themselves to you. Professionals who have systematically kept their options open and prepared themselves can enjoy the benefits earned by the hardships during the many years of preparation. Mid-career, opportunities will present themselves to you, and by late-career you will be in a position to offer opportunities to young people who are preparing themselves by making good choices.

Sincere best wishes for a very successful future.

 

[maryannette]

It is a good article and good advice that I will share with my daughthers.

 

[rudy]

Agree. Excellent advice.

 

[jeb6294]

I'm sorry for anyone who has or will ever have to work with you.

I'm sorry for anyone who has to read his posts. I can feel myself getting just a little bit dumber every time I read one.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

At our department meeting this morning, we were informed that since we are slow, we are expected to burn PTO days when we run out of work. If we do not have enough accumulated PTO days, we may be asked to take days off without pay. It was less than a year ago when we were busier than a 4 peckered rabbit, and they implemented semi-required overtime (for which I do not get paid). IMHO, they cannot have their cake and eat it too. I'm starting to look again because I genuinely do not feel that my job is secure at this point, and I don't really feel any loyalty to a company that thinks it's OK to treat employees like this.

 

[Dexman PE]

after having a long talk with my wife last night, I think I'm in the job hunt as well. While I love working with the people I do and the company itself is nice to work for, some of the "unofficial policies" that seem to have become the norm is getting quite irritating. I have been listening to several key people in the company repeat the "it's going to get better....next month" crap for too long. They then ask everyone to keep their utilization/billable hours as high as possible, but then get mad when there just isn't anything to do. I've seen a few decent positions in the area open up which might be a sign it's time to move on.

Oh well, guess it doesn't hurt to check...

 

[mizzoueng]

Boy Dex, that sounds familiar. Sure we don't work for the same company??

The "standard policy" crap drives me insane. If its not written in the employee policy manual, THEN IT IS NOT STANDARD NOR POLICY

 

[TranspoVA]

Sounds similar to what I am/was dealing with here...They treat everyone like crap because the economy is slow. It pisses me off to to get company propaganda in December that says blablabla we had a stellar year keep up the good work...couldnt have done it without you, then in January they say oh no raises your lucky to have a job. Plus the attitude here is fall in line or risk being laid off...

The upside is 4 more days to go!

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I just got a call to set up a phone interview from the only resume I have sent out so far. The job looks insanely interesting (forensic engineering), so I hope something comes of it.

 

[TranspoVA]

That sounds somewhat interesting...Is it in KY or would you have to relocate?

 

[jeb6294]

I just got a call to set up a phone interview from the only resume I have sent out so far. The job looks insanely interesting (forensic engineering), so I hope something comes of it.

It's not some company out of Chicago is it? Every once in a while I'll get some junk mail from some 'company' out of Chicago (I think that's where they are) that says they're looking for forensic engineers. I checked with a few other people I know around here and we decided it was junk mail that just gets sent to everyone in Ohio website with a PE.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

That sounds somewhat interesting...Is it in KY or would you have to relocate?

Yeah, it's in Louisville.

It's not some company out of Chicago is it? Every once in a while I'll get some junk mail from some 'company' out of Chicago (I think that's where they are) that says they're looking for forensic engineers. I checked with a few other people I know around here and we decided it was junk mail that just gets sent to everyone in Ohio website with a PE.

It's HQ'd in Louisville, but I do believe they have an office in Chicago. I haven't ever heard of the company until I found a job listing on CareerBuilder, so I don't think it's the same joint.

 

[mizzoueng]

I just got a call to set up a phone interview from the only resume I have sent out so far. The job looks insanely interesting (forensic engineering), so I hope something comes of it.

THere are a few listings in St Louis for Forensic Engineers as well. There are some requirements, but they say training is provided. I think its listed under Yoh Inc. or something like that.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

This place is called Donan Engineering.