P.E. -- Past, Present, & Future?

[GT ME]

Actually, HVAC P.E. designation didn't exist until after I graduated in 2000 and, quite frankly, HVAC is a watered-downed version of Fluid & Thermal Systems P.E. designation -- maybe they'll get it right some day.

IMHO P.E. peripheral designations exist due to ever developing technology and the increasingly stringent guidlines set forth by various agencies. It only makes sense that people specialize in certain areas, this allows for these people to concentrate on the most efficient means of design with the current technology that meets the required standards. Would you go to a M.E. that primarily deals with HVAC to design a ship for you because it falls under his umbrella? I wouldn't even he did graduate from a top 3 engineering school. What is the sense of being a jack of all trades and master of none?

 

[GT ME]

Unlike most paper engineers, I'm a real engineer build from a strong foundation -- as a technician.

I started out as a technician for a Fortune 500 firm, and I remembered that the engineers always said I wasn't smart enough to be an engineer -- I was the one that actually solved the problems for those paper engineers but, more importantly, it later turned out, after several years, that I had superior academic intelligence as well.

Geeez! I haven't been around an engineer with that much ego in a long time. It's just so unnecessary. Engineering credentials do not make the person.

 

[GT ME]

: )

There's a thin line between arrogance & confidence.

They must have had to condense the schedule to concentrate on Arrogance in Jr & Sr years

 

[GT ME]

As I said earlier, the Civil P.E designation, today, probably makes the most since.

After all, there's probably as many Civil P.E. taking the test than all the others combined?

Stormwater runoff is a piping and pumping issue -- cleary ME to deal with the fundamental Fluid & Thermodynamics tthat accrue in the design -- Civil Engineering doesn't have that foundation.

I think HVACR should be dropped & incorporated in the Fluid & Themal System P.E. designation.

Well, lets see, where to begin. I guess I will start by saying that mechanical engineers take materials in the early years of their education because that is where it best fit into the curriculum, not because mechanical engineer majors have a more capable mind at that age (which also doesn't apply since many engineer students aren't in freshman and sophomore classes at age 18 and 19, but more like 30 and 31 depending on what life choices they have made prior to getting their degree). I would also say that just because as a civil engineer I took mechanics of materials in my junior year of college doesn't mean that it was among the most difficult of courses that I took and I probably could have understood the material just as quickly in my freshman year, but as others have stated, that isn't factually based, that is my perception. However, I must also state that civil engineering works better for me. I am more of a roads and bridges kind of guy, that is how I think. I don't think much about car engines or HVAC systems or electrical circuits or anything else. I would venture a guess that an HVAC engineer probably couldn't even begin to explain to me the process for managing stormwater runoff because they simply don't care about it, that isn't their focus and they could give more than a couple of shits less about anything to do with civil engineering, but it doesn't mean that the civil engineering profession doesn't need qualified, licensed, and regulated people designing the roads and bridges that you drive across to take your multi-millions and massive ego to the bank.

 

[GT ME]

yep. that course is taken by Civil Engineering students with MEs at top schools.

I had a Civil Engineer for my Dynamics class -- awesome dude, and I got an A because he like my practicle experience & questions I asked : )

I took Mechanics of Materials in my freshman / sophmore years. for the most part that course is required prior to taking Structural Analysis, Steel Design, & Reinforced Concrete Design. It would be almost impossible to wait until your senior year to take all of that.

 

[GT ME]

I don't think I'm smart, although a lot of educated people say that and I get offended.

I'm just poor white trash that was a technician with an AS in Applied Science(you have to have an AS in Physical Science of engineering) that become a top engineer -- extremely rare people.

I wouldn't get too offended if you thought I was crossing the line, it's argument. It was unlikely benbo had my engineering credentials..lol

Hopefully, those P.E. candidates will get motivated by this because there is know doubt in my mind that it's their effort, and not education, that will enable a passing grade(don't memorize, learn concepts).

GT
I saw your post Friday night and I thought you were just bragging about MEs being better than Civils or everybody else. That was the direction of your post. I felt the need to reply and ask exactly what Benbo did but decided not to do it since I was concerned about missunderstanding your post. Now I feel better because I know I did not.

As an EE I did not have to take Mech of Materials since my department decided that the class was irrelevant for us. Before you start to question my college accreditations let me tell you that is an ABET college so I do not have to explain more. Maybe is not like your top 3 but is as good as any other engineering college. Your argument is at least vague and confrontational and that is why you had all this reactions.

We are not used here to somebody coming and bragging about his credentials or his multi-million dollar company. We are normal mortals. When you asked Benbo about his credentials you crossed the line. You know it and did it on purpose. Being a graduated from a top 3 engineering college you are smart and knew exactly what you did. That is not the spririt of this Board. We are here to help others to pass the test and after that have some technical discussions, good time, share opinions and other advices.

If you can leave your higher place and come here in that spirit, willing to share opinions with respect to others, you are more than welcome. If not I think you might be better somewhere else. Your superior attitude would not be a good fit here.

 

[GT ME]

Actually Controll Engineering was under the ME umbrella.

It's obvious that Civil & ME is getting carved up into peripheral P.E. designations while, interestingly, EE hasn't seen that much branching out.

There is no doubt in my mind that Civil & Mechanical is getting carved up like a turkey into peripheral PE designations, while EE is basically remaining intact -- it's all due to Liability.

I completely agree. And to go further, this is also what's happening in education. A couple years before I started my BSEE (in '96), the EE students had to take mechanics of materials, but by the time I got there we didn't. We did have to take statics, dynamics and "baby thermo". But four years later, the dynamics and thermo requirements were also dropped for EE's.
Does this mean the EE grads are worse engineers? Well, it certainly means we're worse mechanical engineers, but that's not what we were shooting for anyway. But the time that used to be spent on engineering mechanics is now spent on more EE studying, which in theory leads to better electrical engineers. And I've never needed to know statics, dynamics or thermo to perform my electrical engineering job--some of the stuff is handy to know in understanding how electrical-related things like power plants or motors work, but the relevant basics can be learned OJT.

Back to GT's topic; I too graduated Summa Cum Laude, plus I was a National Merit Scholar and I have an MS degree and all that crap. I'm not trying to stroke my ego here; my point is that even with those credentials, I'm not qualified as a Fire Protection engineer or to design a bridge or an HVAC system or an industrial process. And like Sapper says, I have no desire to do any of those things, and further, I'd rather not have those responsibilites weighing down my license (assuming the MI board approves my license application--6 weeks and counting since I got my PE exam passing results).

Ok, so maybe I'm being too extreme here; obviously an electrical engineer shouldn't be designing bridges. Perhaps this is more relevant: I've seen there is a Control Systems PE now, and controls has (at least partially) traditonally been under the EE umbrella. Does it bother me that ME's or IE's might be sniping controls from us EE's? No, not really. I might be qualified to do controls engineering, but I don't. And further, I'm not qualified to design computers, even though computer engineering falls under EE as well--though there is no specific Computer PE (yet). I also don't care if the person who designed my computer was qualified to design an electric utility system. So if someone wants to specialize in one of these areas, more power to them, I say. We hear about a shortage of engineers in this country and all about H1B visas; if we require every PE to know everything about every discipline or even every specialization within their own discipline, we're just erecting false barriers that are going to come back to bite us.

 

[benbo]

That sounds a lot like Control Systems Engineering... not software engineering. We could start a new thread on the merits of software engineering but I think it will be difficult to be convincing that, in general, writing software (an art, not a science!) has in inherent element of public safety.

If you're talking about the algorithms maybe that is control. The coding is software. Although some of the PLC programming, or even some SCADA programming maybe that is not technically software.

But lot's of safety related industriual programming is done in C++, assembly and other languages. The automated safety measures on the power grid are programmed into remediation systems by software engineers (called RAS systems here in CA). THere is advanced coding behind and networking involved in lots of industries. Not only that, but the programmers have to make sure that the systems are not vulnerable to hackers. THat is why this is such a worry to homeland security. And remember that software engineers program all those computerized analytical design tools that other engineers use to design things.

 

[GT ME]

I would hope the hard workers would advance while the well-credentialed engineers become their subordinates...lol

it's not always like this, but we don't live in a perfect world. For example, I'm also a 6 figure mgmt consultant for a Fortune 10 firm, but most of upper-level mgmt are poorly educated people that advanced through politics & family ties.

Good point, Sapper. I meant to make this point in my post, but it got so long I forgot! Credentials may help get you in the door on a job, but it's your perfomance that counts--and there are plenty of sloppy or lazy, well-credentialed people, and plenty of hard working, good-performing people without all the credentials. This is what bothers me about seniority-based pay scales, but that's a topic of different rant.

 

[GT ME]

Unless you were someone that came up from the floor as a technician with world-class engineering credentials, it's unlikely you will ever be half the engineer I am benbo. You shouldn't take offense.

I think the responsibility of being a CEO is daunting, but i'm confident my superior experience & education will shine.

I worry more about the plethora of unqualified P.Es out there.

Thanks Luis. My first inclination was that this fellow (or gal) was actually some high schooler trolling the board. It was hard to believe a professional could be so boorish and obnoxious. Now my inclination is to believe that he may be well qualified but actually worried about passing the test. His first question didn't seem to be the sort of thing some engineering genius would have trouble with. But, that's besides the point. My educational and professional credentials would stack up fine next to his, but what's the point? This is the internet. I could make up anythig I wanted to, so why get hooked into dropping my pants for a measuring conmtest with a clod.

 

[GT ME]

Actually this statement is incorrect.

In the profession, we work of Archeticural Drawings that get revised by engineers such as myself.

Structural Engineers don't enter into the equation.

No doubt that GT_ME is a horse's ass, or at least he plays one here, but a beast of burden can be a usefull tool. Even an ace tin knocker from a top 2 school would be commiting malpractice if he placed a large air handler without consulting a Structural PE. We specialize in our fields, but gain some general knowlege in peripheral studies. We know our limits and don't practice outside our license. His statement of "so what" is unfounded and unsupported and is so much spam merely set to stir up the floc tank. The license is a benchmark standard that is required by agencies and industry alike.
What this discussion brings forth for me is the proposed new licensing requirements that are on the horizon of advanced degrees. While I know that the MS gives a person a better understanding and depth of knowledge, does it make you a better engineer? And while a license is a requirement for the work I do, an advance degree would do little more than add to my personal growth and a CM certificate would be more applicable.

 

[Guest]

I think the responsibility of being a CEO is daunting, but i'm confident my superior experience & education will shine.

It must be or else why would you be trolling an engineering forum board at midnight on a Saturday night?

I worry more about the plethora of unqualified P.Es out there.

So, in your admittedly not-so-humble opinion, who is unqualified to be a P.E. ??

JR

 

[GT ME]

Yep, it is a little unsulting, expecially since I went to the top Civil Engineering School in the country -- uh oh -- you guys might fiqure out where I went....lol

I honestly thought IEs where dumb since I had first hand knowledge of IE performance in Thermodynamics, MEs carved IEs up like turkeys. In addition, I wasn't impressed with IEs in Engineering Economy as well.

The fact is there was never an IE P.E. designation until recently and, quite frankly, IEs are not engineers.

Please make the argument. I still don't get what the guy is talking about, except to put himself on some sort of pedestal. And I don't notice any compliment to Structural Engineers here either. The guy probably thinks they are morons as well.
Maybe I went overboard with this guy, but if a person thinks the PE is a "so what" designation, why are they studying for it? This guy is supposedly studying for it, despite his millions and his ranking as one of the top engineers in the universe. I sure wouldn't put out the effort to do this if I hadn't figured out at first if it was of value.

I shouldn't have called the fellow names, but he irks me.

Moreover, the guy spent half his posts bragging about himself and denigrating other people.

This is what he said -

"And, omg, we now have an Industrial Engineering (Professors & Students referred that discipline as Imaginary Engineering) P.E. And another omg, Agricultural P.E.

Where are we going???"

You must not be an Industrial or Agricultural Engineer (neither am I, but I know some real competent Industrial Engineers, and real decent people as well, like John Price who used to post at the other board). I don't see any other way to look at this than as an insult. How would you like it if someone called your profession "Imaginary Engineering". It is probably going to come as a shock to the students at the UC Berkeley department of Industrial Engineering that they are studying an imaginary technology. But then, Berkely is only in the top 10, not the top 3, whatever that means.

 

[benbo]

Unless you were someone that came up from the floor as a technician with world-class engineering credentials, it's unlikely you will ever be half the engineer I am benbo. You shouldn't take offense.
I think the responsibility of being a CEO is daunting, but i'm confident my superior experience & education will shine.

I worry more about the plethora of unqualified P.Es out there.

I'm glad you are an engineering genius, because you sure can't write. But don't worry, I never take offense from the bleatings of a jackass. But that's because you refuse to tell us enough about yourself.

I'm sure you are a god, but you still haven't given us the details of your multimillion dollar business, along with your name, and the name of that famous top 3 school you graced.

Please, favor us oh mighty god, with more information so we may worship you more fully and appropriately. I'm sure you can look some lie up before daddy gets home.

 

[GT ME]

Those P.Es out there that got grandfathered in as a PE when you didn't have to have an engineering degree.

These dinosaurs are slowly becoming extinct, and a new breed of more qualified P.Es are emerging, but not yet.

It was nice to ruffle a few feathers here -- sometimes a kick in the butt is needed to get motivated...lol

Honestly, I'm also desturbed by individual states licensing requirements for P.Es -- I think this is the true disgrace.

As an engineer, Civil & Mechanical Engineering is getting carved up and, to be honest, a CE or ME is quite capable of beforming the other perpherial PE designations.

It must be or else why would you be trolling an engineering forum board at midnight on a Saturday night?So, in your admittedly not-so-humble opinion, who is unqualified to be a P.E. ??

JR

 

[GT ME]

OK - I tried to answer all of your comments the best I could....lol

I shall be more careful when posting again :deadhorse:

 

[Guest]

Would you consider someone who doesn't know the answer to this question PE Question unqualified to be a P.E. after going through and ABET accredited education?

JR

 

[benbo]

Sometimes it is hard to tell whether a troll is for real, or intentionally trying to appear as obnoxious as possible to stir things up. At some point, most trolls "jump the shark," and become such incredible dickheads it's almost impossible to believe they are for real. I am really curious if this overbearing turd really tries to conduct business with an attitude like this, or is, as I suspect, an unruly 6th grader who got to stay up late while his parents are out.

Well, I'm done feeding this troll.

 

[GT ME]

I tell you what....

Send me your fax #, and I'll send you an offer I recieved from the worlds' largest corporation for an engineering management position BEFORE graduating from undergrad -- 6 figure offer.

Then you can post it on this site, and we'll see who the real troll is -- deal?

Either way, you'll never be half the engineer I am.

Sometimes it is hard to tell whether a troll is for real, or intentionally trying to appear as obnoxious as possible to stir things up. At some point, most trolls "jump the shark," and become such incredible dickheads it's almost impossible to believe they are for real. I am really curious if this overbearing turd really tries to conduct business with an attitude like this, or is, as I suspect, an unruly 6th grader who got to stay up late while his parents are out.
Well, I'm done feeding this troll.

 

[mudpuppy]

Ok, this has been, ummm, interesting. I do have a question though. What exactly is a software engineer? My understanding has always been that a person that designs computer hardware (and firmware) systems is a Computer Engineer (usually with an electrical engineering degree), and a person that creates software is a computer programmer (usually with a computer science degree). Are my definitions off (I'll admit right now that I could be completely wrong)? Where does Software Engineer fit in?