maryannette
Wise One
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Level of engineering education in the US
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FLBuff PE
Multi-disciplinary engineer
And here is what I have to say on this issue:
Otter: Point of parliamentary procedure!
Hoover: Don't screw around, they're serious this time!
Otter: Take it easy, I'm pre-law.
Boon: I thought you were pre-med.
Otter: What's the difference?
[Addressing the room]
Otter: Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.
[winks at Dean Wormer]
Otter: But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
[Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]
Otter: Point of parliamentary procedure!
Hoover: Don't screw around, they're serious this time!
Otter: Take it easy, I'm pre-law.
Boon: I thought you were pre-med.
Otter: What's the difference?
[Addressing the room]
Otter: Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.
[winks at Dean Wormer]
Otter: But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!
[Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]
TouchDown
Is it Friday yet?
That dude is in trouble... she's totally not looking at the ball when she swings. Keep your head down.
Dark Knight
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maryannette
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that's what gravity is for.
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gray haired dude
C-Dog
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Bringing it back to topic, somewhat... US still leads the world in science and technology.
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K-12 education is what is dragging us down, not the University system. Because of this, we are more dependent on foreigners to keep it up (not necessarily a bad thing if they naturlize and become citizens).
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K-12 education is what is dragging us down, not the University system. Because of this, we are more dependent on foreigners to keep it up (not necessarily a bad thing if they naturlize and become citizens).
Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
And speaking of derailing a topic, who here loved Tootle as a child?
JoeBoone82
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I agree, and if we do blame the universities... then the foreigners can be included in that topic as well. I do not know about others, but I think about 80% of my engineering professors were from countries outside of the U.S.
TouchDown
Is it Friday yet?
CW -
I never was able to put a name to the little train on the back of almost all the Golden Books. Thank you sir, thank you.
Capt Worley PE
Run silent, run deep
Not a problem!
How about this little fellow?
How about this little fellow?
I may be uniquely qualified to give some perspective on this subject.
I went to High School in a developing or third world Asian country. I got my degree from Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands (ranked 17 in the world). Worked for 5 years in Europe and moved to the US a few years ago. I have/am taking classes in a US University. I have also taken classes at my local community college (best value for your $$$).
The main difference I see in the US vs European System is...
In the US you are given every opportunity to learn and pass. In the European System your home work is not checked or graded, no mid-terms etc. Generally it is one final exam per quarter (mainland Europe not the UK). In other words you are given every opportunity to fail. Some may argue that at University level one should not be babied. My reply to that is that you are there to learn the subject matter and not to show how quickly you can pass exams.
Most top Asian Universities do not offer a broad practical Engineering curriculum. Hence most Asian Engineers who graduate from top Asian Universities are very good at the theory level but less so at the practical level. One Asian University that I do like is the Indian Institute of Technology (based on the US model).
Being a graduate from a leading European University I can say that in my humble opinion, a decent State University in the US produces better all round Engineers than most top European or Asian Universities.
By the way I read on the BBC news website that of all Nobel prizes won for academic works that the US leads the rest of the world by a whopping 70% or so. Not bad for a crappy University system eh... Hans?
Conclusion:
The "choice and level" of engineering programs or for that matter most academic program offered in the US beats the rest of the world by miles. As other posters pointed out given a choice, 90% of world engineering students would and do choose the US :unitedstates: .
I wish I had chosen the US instead of the flesh pots of Amsterdam... but that's another story.
With regards to Asian Engineers referred to "Design Technicians" in the US, I believe its due to experience gained. People coming from a third world country such as me, we're really having a hard time getting a job that you want in the field of your choice. As we know these countries are suffering from economic downfall. Most of them are overqualified for the job, and in the long run they tend to be in the job that what you call DESIGN TECHNICIANS.
But in-regards to level of engineering education, I dont think there's a huge gap between the Philippines and the US.
But in-regards to level of engineering education, I dont think there's a huge gap between the Philippines and the US.
this reminds me of the ...
whose the best soldier
which is the best martial art
etc.
it's the MAN (or woman) that makes the difference...
I've worked with guys from CMU that I would not let change batteries in a flashlight, and others from PSU's tech programs that ran circles around them...
I worked with an engineer from the UK at Cardinal Health, big shot job...MS, Chartered Engineer?, etc....he couldn't do squat...
I have worked with engineers from many different countries...
and having taken graduate classes for the last couple of years have a perspective...
the foreign students seem to work harder, and appreciate the education more, but when all is scored, they don't rank any better...
and more than a few have foreign undergraduate degrees, and we must assume, they are the cream of the crop...
most American students enjoy themselves, and still get by...mindset
in my expereince most foreign grads (India, China, etc., not europe) are smart, but can't get shyte done...
they have no project skills, and over analyze everything, never making progress...
they fit in fine in a large corporate enviornment, but in a small dynamic group, their flaws shine thru...
they are book smart, but can't think outside the box, nor do they see the big picture, the client end, the $$$ end, etc., only nuts and bolts...
perhaps it's communication related, perhaps it's 'attitude'
on the other hand the engineers from Germany & Sweden are very competent...in all aspects, not just technical...
engineering is as much a skill and art, as it is a science...
US engineers are more generalists
whose the best soldier
which is the best martial art
etc.
it's the MAN (or woman) that makes the difference...
I've worked with guys from CMU that I would not let change batteries in a flashlight, and others from PSU's tech programs that ran circles around them...
I worked with an engineer from the UK at Cardinal Health, big shot job...MS, Chartered Engineer?, etc....he couldn't do squat...
I have worked with engineers from many different countries...
and having taken graduate classes for the last couple of years have a perspective...
the foreign students seem to work harder, and appreciate the education more, but when all is scored, they don't rank any better...
and more than a few have foreign undergraduate degrees, and we must assume, they are the cream of the crop...
most American students enjoy themselves, and still get by...mindset
in my expereince most foreign grads (India, China, etc., not europe) are smart, but can't get shyte done...
they have no project skills, and over analyze everything, never making progress...
they fit in fine in a large corporate enviornment, but in a small dynamic group, their flaws shine thru...
they are book smart, but can't think outside the box, nor do they see the big picture, the client end, the $$$ end, etc., only nuts and bolts...
perhaps it's communication related, perhaps it's 'attitude'
on the other hand the engineers from Germany & Sweden are very competent...in all aspects, not just technical...
engineering is as much a skill and art, as it is a science...
US engineers are more generalists
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Very good point. It seems other engineers from foreign countries want to boost their own ego. I knew many international students that failed out of grad school when I was there.
I had 4 years of electrical engineering in Cairo university ( 5 years program) then I transferred to the city university of NY. well, I have to admit that students' academic level in Egypt is way better than here, but the thing is, in order to get into engineering school in Egypt you have to score more than 95% in high school, so basically students who have the change to go to engineering school are not more than 7% of the entire nation student, you have to be really smart to get there. so the thing is not that the engineering programs there is better, it's because the quality of engineering students there is better than the quality in here. but if you compared two engineers, one from egypt and the other is form the U.S, and both have the same IQ level, you would find the American engineer is way better, cause he had better education.
I have a very simple reply to this topic.
There is a reason why third world countries are "third world". Do you want to drink the water in India? How about the roads, highways, bridges, airports, communication infrastructure, basic sanitation, Or, if you prefer, what about the "glam" project that make a city skyline beautiful? high-rises (there are few high-rises in Latin America and most deisgned to 19th century standards), stadiums? does any third world country have an equivelent to Joe Robbie Stadium?
And finally - riddle me this Batman... why do they keep applying to our engineering schools in droves? why, once they get back to their home countries, are they instantly reverved and offered senior management positions based on their "inferior" US education?
The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Engineers build the infrastructure of society. If that infrastructure is a run down wreck... then what does that tell you about the Engineers and their oh so competitive education.
There is a reason why third world countries are "third world". Do you want to drink the water in India? How about the roads, highways, bridges, airports, communication infrastructure, basic sanitation, Or, if you prefer, what about the "glam" project that make a city skyline beautiful? high-rises (there are few high-rises in Latin America and most deisgned to 19th century standards), stadiums? does any third world country have an equivelent to Joe Robbie Stadium?
And finally - riddle me this Batman... why do they keep applying to our engineering schools in droves? why, once they get back to their home countries, are they instantly reverved and offered senior management positions based on their "inferior" US education?
The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Engineers build the infrastructure of society. If that infrastructure is a run down wreck... then what does that tell you about the Engineers and their oh so competitive education.
JoeBoone82
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Well, you're leaving out the money differences. One cannot build the best, with out the financial support. I also think a lot of them come here to the U.S. for their education, so that they can become licensed here and work in the U.S., and not live in poverty... not because the education is superior, but because the standard of living is superior.
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