Level of engineering education in the US
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engineergurl
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I have to say that I think you are all trying to compare apples to oranges here.
First, you can't base any comparison for any school on admission statistics. There could be an engineering school on the moon, and everyone could be applying because it's they think it's the best and I the single admissions officer have decided to only accept 5 people. Does that make my school really the best, no it's just selective based on the resources and oxygen supply we have there. That selectiveness makes it hard to attend, but you could probably get the same education by teaching yourself if you had the brains to do so...
You can't use graduation rates, job placement rates or any other factual statistics to compare either. We are talking about completly different situations and cultures. Once again back to my school on the moon, I've only got 5 students. Quite easy to find jobs for them since it is such a small number, so now I have a 100% job placement rate. (Do you see where I'm going here? and oh by the way, since we had so many applicants we will now only accept students who have already obtained an under graduate degree in liberal arts so we don't have to waste the resources in teaching those "other classes" like public speaking and the like.)
On top of all that, there is the whole funding issue. Who pays for what, schools here in the states have to compete for grants and research projects and the list of challenges could go on. Even comparing ciruiculums with in the US is impossible. Schools have to be generating an income to fund programs and that means the University has to be appealing to potential students which means that of course the professors can't make someone stand on a bench. No one actually WANTS to do that so why would you go to a school that might make you if there are ten others that won't and will get you the same end results.
I would say, what it all boils down to is a few simple facts.
1. The educational structure of the area prior to college level classes. I was allowed to "major" in science and math in high school. We were allowed access to transportation to the community college and to the university for higher level classes if we wanted. Not everywhere in the states has that, and other countries don't have a K-12 system like us, after the tenth year of school then it turns into what we could compare to community college.
2. The attitude of the culture. In recent years I think that the level of pride in our country has declined to a point where, well look at this thread, you are doubting your education! Did you obtain a degree? Did you obtain your PE? Are you capable of performing your job duties, is your knowledge allowing you to pursue further advancement, etc etc etc? If you answered yes to all of these questions, then you got a quality education, are following thru with it and WHO cares where that degree came from to begin with. Sure here, in our country, someone who graduated from MIT or Harvard or Yale might be more appealing at an interview, but if they can't do the work, it won't last them very long.
There is always going to be someone smarter then you, but it is the usefulness of the knowledge that you have that creates your value and your willingness to take risks based on the confidence you have in yourself that allows you to gain your own level of usefulness.
On a side note, although this thread upset me some making me think that people are doubting their backgrounds, the fact that eveyone got a little riled up has given me some faith that we are still proud to be Americans and proud of what America has to offer. :unitedstates:
My pride is not dissing any other country or what they have to offer. I don't group everyone and everywhere together, but I am totally sick of people calling us stupid Americans because we aren't, and if your views differ then mine, guess what... that's fine because that's the beautiful thing about the United States, we have more then the basic human rights granted to us, and anything more to discuss on that would be a whole other topic.
First, you can't base any comparison for any school on admission statistics. There could be an engineering school on the moon, and everyone could be applying because it's they think it's the best and I the single admissions officer have decided to only accept 5 people. Does that make my school really the best, no it's just selective based on the resources and oxygen supply we have there. That selectiveness makes it hard to attend, but you could probably get the same education by teaching yourself if you had the brains to do so...
You can't use graduation rates, job placement rates or any other factual statistics to compare either. We are talking about completly different situations and cultures. Once again back to my school on the moon, I've only got 5 students. Quite easy to find jobs for them since it is such a small number, so now I have a 100% job placement rate. (Do you see where I'm going here? and oh by the way, since we had so many applicants we will now only accept students who have already obtained an under graduate degree in liberal arts so we don't have to waste the resources in teaching those "other classes" like public speaking and the like.)
On top of all that, there is the whole funding issue. Who pays for what, schools here in the states have to compete for grants and research projects and the list of challenges could go on. Even comparing ciruiculums with in the US is impossible. Schools have to be generating an income to fund programs and that means the University has to be appealing to potential students which means that of course the professors can't make someone stand on a bench. No one actually WANTS to do that so why would you go to a school that might make you if there are ten others that won't and will get you the same end results.
I would say, what it all boils down to is a few simple facts.
1. The educational structure of the area prior to college level classes. I was allowed to "major" in science and math in high school. We were allowed access to transportation to the community college and to the university for higher level classes if we wanted. Not everywhere in the states has that, and other countries don't have a K-12 system like us, after the tenth year of school then it turns into what we could compare to community college.
2. The attitude of the culture. In recent years I think that the level of pride in our country has declined to a point where, well look at this thread, you are doubting your education! Did you obtain a degree? Did you obtain your PE? Are you capable of performing your job duties, is your knowledge allowing you to pursue further advancement, etc etc etc? If you answered yes to all of these questions, then you got a quality education, are following thru with it and WHO cares where that degree came from to begin with. Sure here, in our country, someone who graduated from MIT or Harvard or Yale might be more appealing at an interview, but if they can't do the work, it won't last them very long.
There is always going to be someone smarter then you, but it is the usefulness of the knowledge that you have that creates your value and your willingness to take risks based on the confidence you have in yourself that allows you to gain your own level of usefulness.
On a side note, although this thread upset me some making me think that people are doubting their backgrounds, the fact that eveyone got a little riled up has given me some faith that we are still proud to be Americans and proud of what America has to offer. :unitedstates:
My pride is not dissing any other country or what they have to offer. I don't group everyone and everywhere together, but I am totally sick of people calling us stupid Americans because we aren't, and if your views differ then mine, guess what... that's fine because that's the beautiful thing about the United States, we have more then the basic human rights granted to us, and anything more to discuss on that would be a whole other topic.
benbo
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Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/
http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/
IlPadrino
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Wow, GA Tech is #8. I am impressed.
Too bad my good old Iowa State University didn't even make the tech ranking. But... they did make it as #276 in the overall world ranking, just above the 2 year colleges.
I guess my kid will be educated in GA.
Too bad my good old Iowa State University didn't even make the tech ranking. But... they did make it as #276 in the overall world ranking, just above the 2 year colleges.
I guess my kid will be educated in GA.
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:woot:
roadwreck = Georgia Tech Grad
Which may explain why I don't think international programs are a step ahead of US programs.
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chaosiscash
Subcontractor
Yeah, Clemson didn't make the list either. But Playboy consistently ranks us as having some of the best looking women in the country, so I guess we got that going over Georgia Tech. All depends on your priorities.
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:banhim:
blah, blah, blah...
You really don't need to remind me of the lack of co-eds at Tech. I went there, I am well aware of that deficiency in the curriculum.
The good news is that there is no lack of *ahem* 'talent' *cough cough* in that department in Atlanta, and Clemson is a short trip up the road, so you can have the best of both worlds if you like.
wilheldp_PE
PE, LEED AP, SPAM KING
I'd say that survey only takes into account graduate level programs or research programs. Rose-Hulman and Harvey Mudd routinely kick MIT's ass at undergraduate engineering education, and they don't even make that list. I had a buddy that went to Carnegie Mellon for his undergrad, and he said that the courses were terrible. They were all taught by TAs that had a less-than-basic grasp of the English language. All of the full professors were too busy with their research projects and/or 700-level courses to give a **** about undergrads. I went to Rose, and they only offer a handful of Masters programs and no Doctorate degrees. If you had a problem with a homework question, you could call the prof at home or visit him in his office for help...it was great. Not to mention the fact that any research projects in the school were handled almost completely by the students, with minimal supervision by a faculty member.
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chaosiscash
Subcontractor
Figured I should get my shots in now, football season is rapidly approaching, and once again I bet GT will be a thorn in our side. I agree completely about Atlanta.:banhim:
blah, blah, blah...
You really don't need to remind me of the lack of co-eds at Tech. I went there, I am well aware of that deficiency in the curriculum.
The good news is that there is no lack of *ahem* 'talent' *cough cough* in that department in Atlanta, and Clemson is a short trip up the road, so you can have the best of both worlds if you like.
As for the actual discussion, I really believe that to a point, college level education follows along the same path as the rest of the education system in the US. By that I mean that if you apply yourself and want to learn, you can get a pretty good education anywhere. If you just don't care and are only doing enough to "get by", then you are doing yourself a disservice. I went to Clemson, which is a decent school, but definately not on the list. However, I feel as though my education has been very good as far as how it has applied to the work I currently do, and has provided me with stable employment at a (in my opinion) decent salary.
Ah yes, but Tech won last year, so that means we are destined to lose to Clemson this season.
engineergurl
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[quote name='error_matrix' date='Jun 6 2008, 10:27 AM' post='6636563'
oh, and excellent writeup engineergurl :respect:
Why thank you!
oh, and excellent writeup engineergurl :respect:
Why thank you!
benbo
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Obviously this is just one group's survey using their methodology. I just used it as an example of how this is all very subjective, and there is certainly no consensus that US universities are lousy.
benbo
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The school I dropped out of is on here, but the school I finally graduated from probably wasn't even up for consideration. I don't think many people outside Caifornia ever heard of it. But I still managed to get employment.
Carlito
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The intention of this post was not to belittle any American because of his education, nor to make anyone upset; rather, it was to provoke the exchange of ideas and views in a constructive atmosphere. Sure, US has still a lot to offer, although when I think of the stupidity in invading :iraq:, the resources wasted equal to that it would cost to rebuild the country's entire infrastructure system (to say nothing of the lives lost on both sides!!!), I start to doubt the greatness of the leaders of this once great nation... There's nothing wrong with pride in one's land, but when pride blinds one's judgment, that is usually the beginning of the end. We know from history of the price many a nation has paid for becoming complacent, over confident in their infallibility. So it is always useful to have these discussions. One of the problems we have in the US, I think, is accepting criticism for what it really is and what can be gained from it (i.e. saying something critical is auomatically equated to being un-American - why??? this is really silly and immature, thoughtless to say the least), but that could well make for a whole new thread...
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benbo
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Interesting - you don't want to belittle anyone, but you label certain people as silly, immature, and thoughtless. But I'm certain you'll accept my criticism for what you can gain from it.
I'm an engineer. When somebody makes a statement I like to see some objective evidence. But I guess it must be different in the high-falutin' schools outside the US.
Nothing can be gained from the engineers you quote at the beginning of the thread. THey are expressing a biased opinion not grounded in any fact or statistic, or at least they are not letting us in on their rationale. Which shows me something about their technical prowess. If someone wants me to respect their statements, then give me some numbers, some facts, don't just shoot off your mouth. So I'll freely call their comments unfounded. Criticisms are welcome if they are backed up. Generally what criticism amounts to (and these engineers opinions are a perfect example) is just opinion.
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engineergurl
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Criticize: verb:
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly
2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of
Criticize away... but I still hold my stance and state that I got a great education and it was because I wanted to, it had nothing to do with what institution I attended.
How did this turn into an Iraq debate? I won't go there.
"I start to doubt the greatness of the leaders of this once great nation... There's nothing wrong with pride in one's land, but when pride blinds one's judgment, that is usually the beginning of the end. We know from history of the price many a nation has paid for becoming complacent, over confident in their infallibility"
We were not once a great nation, we are a great nation. Any faults that we have should be debated elsewhere, and my pride does not blind me from those faults. And considering the internal debates in regards to the any of the choices of our leaders, I doubt that anyone else is blind either nor would I consider the general population "over confident in their infallibility".
The point I was trying to make with my little side note is that there are so many doubts in the minds of everyone in this country and often things seem dismal, that it was refreshing to see that members did a few look ups and researched their schools to back up their own arguments, they got a little fired up and it was kick @$$...
If you had wanted to "provoke the exchange of ideas and views in a constructive atmosphere" then perhaps the title on the thread should not have referenced specificlly the United States but rather just to have stated that you wanted to discuss the level of engineering education in general... the mere fact that you singled out that one specific portion of my post, brought up Iraq and in general dissed our leaders... well that leads me to conclude otherwise, despite what you claim in more recent postings.
If this had really been about the level of education, then you would have put me in my place by finding some statistics to counter the postings about the rankings of schools, argued about my moon school, hell, given us a problem to solve that you don't think was taught in the schools of the US to prove a point, instead you resorted to turning the thread with political issues that we are debating here anyway. Not cool dude.
Okay I won't go there totally but here is something to consider, last time I checked, Americans were not the only soldiers in Iraq... the Brits are there too.
1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly
2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of
Criticize away... but I still hold my stance and state that I got a great education and it was because I wanted to, it had nothing to do with what institution I attended.
How did this turn into an Iraq debate? I won't go there.
"I start to doubt the greatness of the leaders of this once great nation... There's nothing wrong with pride in one's land, but when pride blinds one's judgment, that is usually the beginning of the end. We know from history of the price many a nation has paid for becoming complacent, over confident in their infallibility"
We were not once a great nation, we are a great nation. Any faults that we have should be debated elsewhere, and my pride does not blind me from those faults. And considering the internal debates in regards to the any of the choices of our leaders, I doubt that anyone else is blind either nor would I consider the general population "over confident in their infallibility".
The point I was trying to make with my little side note is that there are so many doubts in the minds of everyone in this country and often things seem dismal, that it was refreshing to see that members did a few look ups and researched their schools to back up their own arguments, they got a little fired up and it was kick @$$...
If you had wanted to "provoke the exchange of ideas and views in a constructive atmosphere" then perhaps the title on the thread should not have referenced specificlly the United States but rather just to have stated that you wanted to discuss the level of engineering education in general... the mere fact that you singled out that one specific portion of my post, brought up Iraq and in general dissed our leaders... well that leads me to conclude otherwise, despite what you claim in more recent postings.
If this had really been about the level of education, then you would have put me in my place by finding some statistics to counter the postings about the rankings of schools, argued about my moon school, hell, given us a problem to solve that you don't think was taught in the schools of the US to prove a point, instead you resorted to turning the thread with political issues that we are debating here anyway. Not cool dude.
Okay I won't go there totally but here is something to consider, last time I checked, Americans were not the only soldiers in Iraq... the Brits are there too.
G
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^^^ Couldn't agree more!
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