ITT Technical Institute? Really?

[MonteBiker]

As a civil engineer at Clemson I had Calculus I, Calculus II, Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations.
We also had to take Physics with Electricity and Magnetism as well as a Circuits class.

"I am not discrediting your work, but according to what Penn State lists as the curriculum for that program, the highest math course required is Calculus II. Penn State. From my ABET accredited BS in Mechanical Engineering program, I recall having at least 2 or 3 higher math courses beyond Calculus II.

I also recall having 2 or 3 electrical courses, and I didn't go for Electrical Engineering."

Apparently everyone else that wants to discredit you statement also types faster than me as well...

 

[Capt Worley PE]

i dont know of ANY Civil Engineer who took more math than i did, or physics or chemistry, or any other "complex mathematics and science courses". It simply isnt true.

Hmmm...looks like the highest Math was 141, which is the bottom requirement for engineering. I know I did 141, 142, 241, 242, 520, 544, and 555 just off the top of my head.

But I'm mechanical....

 

[benbo]

Not too sure about the money issue. Quite a few of the guys working for us don't even have a college degree, and are making well over $100k before per piem based on construction knowledge and experience alone.

True enough - one should never use money as a gauge. Out here a lot of the certified welders and control room operators earn more (especially with overtime) than PhD professors at the state schools.

 

[Roy T.]

That is an awfully bold statement and I know that I can dispute you. Both of my degrees (BS ans MS) are in Civil. Even before my masters, I had taken more calculus, linear algebra and ordinary differential equations. I took partial differential equations in grad school for fun. I believe that up to ODE was a requirement for Civil.
I might even argue about the science part. CE students typically have to take wastewater, which is much more heavily weighted towards science than Basic Management... I seemed to have a majority of the classes that you took as well although condensed all of the construction courses down to a semester.

Here is the current curriculum for Penn State's Structural Design and Construction Engineering Tech program (it may have been updated though since you have been through...):

http://www.hbg.psu.edu/sdcet/

From what I can tell, it looks like a cross between a construction engineering and a construction management degree...

This does look a little like UF's building construction program. Those guys did make some pretty decent money, more than civil eng, until housing crashed. A lot of them, that I know personally, have struggled since. some have tried to pass themselves off as "engineers" on business cards - only to be slapped down by the board.

Contractor != Engineer

 

[Matt-NM]

i graduated from Penn State with an 'Engineering Technology" Degree. Went 4 1/2 years, took all the usual pre-engineering classes and spent my Junior and Senior yr taking MASSIVE amounts of very specific classes in my field of study. PLEASE don't sell us "technology" degree holders short. OF COURSE our curiculum is ABET accredited. IMO Penn States Technology program is better then the typical "Engineering" degree.

I don't think engineers are trying to sell "Technology" degree holders short by any means. Engineering technologists have their place in the industry. But technology degree holders have to realize that there is a reason for the two separate programs. They are simply not identical in level of difficulty. This is not purely my opinion, but can be easily observed by comparing the two curriculums. They are focused completely differently.

To say that the engineering technology program has much more mathematics and higher level classes than Civil engineers is flat out wrong. I personally am Mechanical, but for the most part all "engineering" degrees regardless of school are going to require Calculus I, II, III, Differential Equations, and Linear Algebra. Your program only requires Calculus I, with an option for Calculus II. And in engineering programs, the math classes are the easy part for many people.

I think engineering technologists would get much more respect if they realized their role in the field and presented themselves as a compliment to engineers, rather than trying to go toe-to-toe with them. Every engineering technologist I know has said the same thing about themselves from day 1. "We are engineers but better because we are more hands on". This esentially ended the career of one of them in my company. Since this mentality seems to be coming from many different parts of the country, I have a feeling that the wrong impression is being instilled in the technology students minds from day 1 by the schools. They are sending out the idea that "technologists" are automatically enigneers, just like "engineering" students are engineers.

A statement like "The technology program is better than the engineering program" is going to bring out the "big guns" of this board for sure, as you have already seen. Again, we are not trying to discredit you or other technologists at all. But I think in the long run you will be better off with the attitude of "How can I help engineers do their job", as opposed to the current general mentality, which is an unwinnable battle.

 

[kevo_55]

opcorn:

 

[MGX]

ET is definitely not the same as engineering. I did investigate a 4 year ET program in fire protection, but chose civil instead. Most could figure out that the ET degree would have been more lucrative but, it came down to personal preference.

The ET program requires only technical calculus I and II while my civil degree requires Calculus I-IV plus ODE along with two semesters of calculus-based physics and a long line of science classes.

Freon; how you handled that kid without completely shattering him is beyond me.

 

[Fluvial]

Georgia Tech may have the best academic reputation, but in our company a lot of the Georgia Tech grads (particularly the ones that graduated in the last 5 years) don't know how to wipe their asses without a manual of some kind.

Hmm. To be honest, I don't know any real recent grads, just folks I've practiced with over the years.

Rob, I agree with what Matt said - there is nothing wrong with a Technology degree, but it's not the same as a CE degree. Just as a psychiatrist isn't the same as a psychologist; related, but not the same.

I know the point has been beaten to death here, but my degree requirements included Calculus I thru IV, Differential Equations, Statistics, and a course called Engineering Mathematics (after the Calculus courses).

 

[MonteBiker]

That is an awfully bold statement and I know that I can dispute you. Both of my degrees (BS ans MS) are in Civil. Even before my masters, I had taken more calculus, linear algebra and ordinary differential equations. I took partial differential equations in grad school for fun. I believe that up to ODE was a requirement for Civil.
I might even argue about the science part. CE students typically have to take wastewater, which is much more heavily weighted towards science than Basic Management... I seemed to have a majority of the classes that you took as well although condensed all of the construction courses down to a semester.

Here is the current curriculum for Penn State's Structural Design and Construction Engineering Tech program (it may have been updated though since you have been through...):

http://www.hbg.psu.edu/sdcet/

From what I can tell, it looks like a cross between a construction engineering and a construction management degree...

I did come to the funny realization that my wife, a middle school teacher, also has way more math than the ET program requires. And also, that I could have tested out of all of the math and physics for the program straight out of high school (except that I had taken more college level physics in high school as well).

 

[C-Dog]

The school I adjunct at offers a civil engineering tech degree. this is what they say

in the Civil Engineering Technology program receive an education that stresses the practical application of engineering principles.

Bachelor of Science in Civil Engineering Technology program is accredited by the Technology Accreditation Commission of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (TAC of ABET)...

Based on the rigor of their academic preparation and consequent ability to apply engineering solutions to real-world problems, the graduates of this program are highly sought by industry recruiters. Senior Civil Engineering Technology students are eligible to take the Fundamentals of Engineering (F.E.) Exam which, when combined with the requisite amount of engineering experience, qualifies them to apply for the Professional Engineer (P.E.) Exam.

What is not stated, is that while you can take the FE, inorder to take the PE exam, one must show 2x the experience compared to an engineering degree (@ least in CT).

 

[roadwreck]

Georgia Tech may have the best academic reputation, but in our company a lot of the Georgia Tech grads (particularly the ones that graduated in the last 5 years) don't know how to wipe their asses without a manual of some kind.

Georgia Tech grads are okay, but I'd take an engineer from Europe over a Georgia Tech grad any day of the week. Everything is better over in Europe.

 

[Fluvial]

I think we already had that joke over on Page 1.

 

[Chucktown PE]

I think we already had that joke over on Page 1.

What joke?

 

[roadwreck]

I think we already had that joke over on Page 1.

Sorry, I don't have a manual on how to read this thread so I'm a bit out of my element.

 

[Kephart P.E.]

[No message]

 

[Kephart P.E.]

I am not discrediting your work, but according to what Penn State lists as the curriculum for that program, the highest math course required is Calculus II. Penn State. From my ABET accredited BS in Mechanical Engineering program, I recall having at least 2 or 3 higher math courses beyond Calculus II.
I also recall having 2 or 3 electrical courses, and I didn't go for Electrical Engineering.

Try on 4 more classes for my BS in Mech Engr from Oregon State.

 

[Kephart P.E.]

Hmm. To be honest, I don't know any real recent grads, just folks I've practiced with over the years.
Rob, I agree with what Matt said - there is nothing wrong with a Technology degree, but it's not the same as a CE degree. Just as a psychiatrist isn't the same as a psychologist; related, but not the same.

I know the point has been beaten to death here, but my degree requirements included Calculus I thru IV, Differential Equations, Statistics, and a course called Engineering Mathematics (after the Calculus courses).

My most hated was one called Numerical Methods, that thing made Differential Equations seem practical.

 

[Chucktown PE]

In the engineering department (in addition to the 5 math classes) we had to take engineering statistics and numerical methods. Those were fun classes. I loved solving equations with Newton-Raphson to 5 iterations, manually.

 

[Chucktown PE]

Sorry, I don't have a manual on how to read this thread so I'm a bit out of my element.

Sorry rw, I shouldn't have made the blanket statement. I should have said most of the Georgia Tech grads that I work with. It is frustrating to always hear about how great GT engineers are. I know they have kick ass research programs and such but my experience with their graduates has been pretty bad. Of course they worked for the government for a few years as well so that may be what has made them completely oblivious to the fact that we are trying to make a profit.

 

[jcochranlv]

First, Thank you for the info that in this thread it has helped me a lot.

       When I got out of the military I wanted to be an Engineer, so I looked around and went to ITT thinking that I would graduate and get to work in the field I wanted. The whole time I went there I was told that I was in the engineering program and I would be an Engineer. After graduation reality hit me in the face when I found out that my "degree" was useless. When I contacted ITT about the problem they suggested I go back to school and get my masters.....which I tried but my credits are useless too. I thankfully managed to get a job as a electronics technician so, I am ahead of most graduates. So here I sit G.I. Bill gone, a useless degree and stuck.

      I am posting for two reasons;

     1. I understand your opinions about ITT grads, and don't disagree in most cases. But, for people like me that went there legitimately thinking they were going to be something just to find out they weren't sucks bad. I know personally I worked two jobs and went to school, I put in the effort with barely anything to show. Try at least not to put people down or belittle them, they are in a hard enough spot as it is, and are just trying to make something out of the s%!t sandwich they were given.

     2. What can I do now, I am going back to school....again....yay freshman year......again. I don't think I have any legal recourse so im not sure where to go from here. I am working in engineering....as a technician... any suggestions?