ITT Technical Institute? Really?

[Chucktown PE]

I don't think it's okay for a non-engineer to pull the wool over a jury's eyes and convince them of something which can't be possible. There are many technical matters of which the standard juror has no knowledge, or at the most a very limited understanding.

You may not think it's okay but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Thank you for making my point for me.

What point?

Here, that electrician has to have a Master Electrician license.

Not here. And if you have one master electrician you can still have 20 other un licensed people on the jobsite performing work.

How would one go about proving that? Sounds like proving a negative. We can probably find cites for a failure when the design professional was unlicensed.

You can also show quite a bit of work by licensed professional engineers that resulted in a loss of human life.

I might add that I would agree that a lot of these things are unconstitutional and certainly not the province of the federal government. Unfortunately, every since Marbury v Madison the country has recognized the notion of judicial review and I don't think that is likely to change.
However, with building codes and PE licenses these are state functions. I would much rather have these things decided by state legislatures or referendum than by some court system.

Now there is something we can agree on.

 

[IlPadrino]

What about cheap massage therapists?

What about them?

And do you really think a great unwashed poor person is going to let some idiot cut them open with a scalpel? If so maybe it's Darwinism at work.

It's been seen in back-alley abortion clinics, so, yes, I think some "idiots" (your word... not sure why you're being so demeaning) would. Sure, it's Darwinism at work, but we're better than the monkeys, so that just helps to prove my point. If you want a world where only the fittest survive, you'll need to live elsewhere than the First World.

No it isn't. Well I can say without a doubt that if it weren't for my PE license I'd be designing cut rate structures, skimping on rebar, and using cheap concrete. Here's the funny thing IlPadrino, I have to have a license to show something on a drawing, but the guy that's forming the rebar can come in off the street half drunk. Arguably, his job is just as important as mine. And the building inspector doesn't have to have a license. The guy that designs the elevator doesn't have to have a license, nor does the guy that installs the fire sprinkler. So do all these people need licenses now?
My point in all of this is to say that yes, there are bad people out there that will do unscrupulous things, however, it's impossible to pass enough laws to protect all people from all things. I understand that sucks, but what makes us do the right thing, act ethically, and do good work could be a combination of things 1) our customers (if we do **** work they aren't going to be asking us to do any more) 2) making sure people aren't harmed by our work (call it self preservation, fear of a lawsuit, whatever) 3) personal pride in our work. There may be other factors but I have not once in my career made an engineering judgement because I have a PE or because I passed some test, nor do I think those things make me any better of an engineer. Ask those that failed the test what their opinion is.

You're just building more Straw Men that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. In your fairy-tale word, there's no need for deterrents from acting poorly other than customers, self-preservation, and personal pride. I find that quite ridiculous even with your "there may be other factors" because bad things seem to keep happening in the world. Licensing isn't the panacea, but it's a useful framework that serves the public's interest.

 

[Fluvial]

You may not think it's okay but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Whether it happens or not has nothing to do with my point.

What point?

That non-engineers, by and large, aren't sufficiently educated to be able to "decide what is accurate and what isn't". Requiring that an expert witness be a licensed engineer protects the legal system from opportunists. Do you think my previous example was OK, where the casino could collect damages from a parking lot designer for leaky windows?

Not here. And if you have one master electrician you can still have 20 other un licensed people on the jobsite performing work.

Glad I'm not there, then.

There is a certain mindset about "having a piece of paper to hang on the wall" that I don't agree with. Maybe that's one of the things that rankles you about the P.E. test or license, I don't know. But there do need to be things like building codes and standards of medical care, and engineering licenses, IMHO.

 

[jmbeck]

Glad I'm not there, then.

The great state of Mississippi, better than South Carolina.

Oh, and the State college of MS produces the finest engineers in the South. Most modest also.

 

[Chucktown PE]

^^ My parents had a graduation party for my youngest brother this weekend and I was telling an old family friend that I was living down in Charleston now and his response was "God love that place, it's the only thing that keeps us from being worse than Mississippi." I hadn't ever heard that one before. Having grown up in SC I feel like it's the best place on earth, but it seems that I'm in the minority.

 

[jmbeck]

I feel the same way about MS. We have more than our fair share of problems, but I'll defend my fair state to the bitter end.

Funny thing is, 95% of the people that talk poorly about MS (or the South in general) have never been there. I think it goes without saying that's the way we like it too.

 

[Fluvial]

Oh, and the State college of MS produces the finest engineers in the South. Most modest also.

I didn't go to State. But I think all the engineering schools in the south produce good engineers - I'd pick Georgia Tech as the best (didn't go there either).

My Daddy got his PhD from South Carolina - I went to the first grade there. It's a beautiful place.

 

[squishles10]

opcorn:

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Having grown up in SC I feel like it's the best place on earth, but it seems that I'm in the minority.

Nah, I left and came back. SC is pretty dang good in my book.

Regarding the elctricians, I'm almost posiitve the company has to be licensed and the workers have certificates, but I'm too lazy to look it up. My point is, if you see unlicensed guys running around, you might want to contact someone about it, the contractors board or someone.

 

[Chucktown PE]

I didn't go to State. But I think all the engineering schools in the south produce good engineers - I'd pick Georgia Tech as the best (didn't go there either).
My Daddy got his PhD from South Carolina - I went to the first grade there. It's a beautiful place.

Georgia Tech may have the best academic reputation, but in our company a lot of the Georgia Tech grads (particularly the ones that graduated in the last 5 years) don't know how to wipe their asses without a manual of some kind.

 

[ROBIAMEIT]

To have an engineering technology degree and be considered an engineer is one thing (there are several "technology" degrees out there that are even ABET accredited).
However, the ITT Tech does NOT have regional accreditation, which puts it right up there with Phoenix Online in terms of credibility.

i graduated from Penn State with an 'Engineering Technology" Degree. Went 4 1/2 years, took all the usual pre-engineering classes and spent my Junior and Senior yr taking MASSIVE amounts of very specific classes in my field of study. PLEASE don't sell us "technology" degree holders short. OF COURSE our curiculum is ABET accredited. IMO Penn States Technology program is better then the typical "Engineering" degree.

 

[Chucktown PE]

Now it's my turn.

opcorn:

 

[wilheldp_PE]

i graduated from Penn State with an 'Engineering Technology" Degree. Went 4 1/2 years, took all the usual pre-engineering classes and spent my Junior and Senior yr taking MASSIVE amounts of very specific classes in my field of study. PLEASE don't sell us "technology" degree holders short. OF COURSE our curiculum is ABET accredited. IMO Penn States Technology program is better then the typical "Engineering" degree.

First of all, there is a HUGE difference between an ABET accredited engineering technology degree from a college or university and a "print-your-own" degree from the likes of ITT and DeVry. Second, here is the NSPE's take on the differences between engineering and engineering technology. I think it sums things up quite nicely.

From Here

Engineering and engineering technology are recognized as distinct points on the technical occupational spectrum. For example, ABET's accreditation criteria defines engineering as "the profession in which a knowledge of the mathematical and natural sciences gained by study, experience, and practice is applied with judgment to develop ways to use economically the materials and forces of nature for the benefit of mankind." Engineering technology is defined as "that part of the technological field that requires the application of scientific and engineering knowledge and methods combined with technical skills in support of engineering activities; it lies in the occupational spectrum between the craftsman and the engineer at the end of the spectrum closest to the engineer." In other words, the engineer is the person who conceives the design, while the engineering technologist is the person who implements it.
The distinction between engineering and engineering technology emanates primarily from differences in their educational programs. Engineering programs are geared toward development of conceptual skills, and consist of a sequence of engineering fundamentals and design courses, built on a foundation of complex mathematics and science courses. Engineering technology programs are oriented toward application, and provide their students introductory mathematics and science courses, and only a qualitative introduction to engineering fundamentals. Thus, engineering programs provide their graduates a breadth and depth of knowledge that allows them to function as designers. Engineering technology programs prepare their graduates to apply others' designs.

This distinction between engineering and engineering technology is acknowledged in several ways. For example, ABET establishes separate accreditation criteria for each program. The criteria prohibits an accredited engineering technology program from claiming that it gives its graduates the equivalent of an engineering education. In addition, a comparison of the pass rates on the Fundamentals of Engineering exam between engineering and engineering technology graduates indicates that technology graduates have a significantly more difficult time with the exam than do engineering graduates.

 

[ROBIAMEIT]

wilheldp_PE ~

my degree is in Structural Design and Construction Engineering Technology.

As far as the "Engineering programs are geared toward development of conceptual skills, and consist of a sequence of engineering fundamentals and design courses, built on a foundation of complex mathematics and science courses. Engineering technology programs are oriented toward application, and provide their students introductory mathematics and science courses, and only a qualitative introduction to engineering fundamentals." statement I would have to disagree 100%!

i dont know of ANY Civil Engineer who took more math than i did, or physics or chemistry, or any other "complex mathematics and science courses". It simply isnt true.

I know the ONLY reason i had trouble with the FE exam was because of the inordinate amount of electrical problems on it. Made me wonder "WTF?!!" when you look around the room and only about 10 out of 100 kids taking it were elctrical and the rest of us were Civil??

 

[wilheldp_PE]

wilheldp_PE ~
my degree is in Structural Design and Construction Engineering Technology.

As far as the "Engineering programs are geared toward development of conceptual skills, and consist of a sequence of engineering fundamentals and design courses, built on a foundation of complex mathematics and science courses. Engineering technology programs are oriented toward application, and provide their students introductory mathematics and science courses, and only a qualitative introduction to engineering fundamentals." statement I would have to disagree 100%!

i dont know of ANY Civil Engineer who took more math than i did, or physics or chemistry, or any other "complex mathematics and science courses". It simply isnt true.

I know the ONLY reason i had trouble with the FE exam was because of the inordinate amount of electrical problems on it. Made me wonder "WTF?!!" when you look around the room and only about 10 out of 100 kids taking it were elctrical and the rest of us were Civil??

It's not that I distrust you, ROBIAMEIT, it's just that I find it unfortunate that you did all that work and ended up with a degree that has a stigma attached to it. In engineering circles, people with any kind of engineering technology degree are looked down upon. The fact that you have gotten your PE (you have, haven't you?) should lift most of that stigma.

This whole discussion reminds me of when I first graduated from Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. Anybody that had never heard of the college before would ask me "Is that one of those 2 year colleges?" That pissed me off pretty bad since I had to work my ass off to squeak by with a C average in 4 years.

 

[Roy T.]

wilheldp_PE ~
my degree is in Structural Design and Construction Engineering Technology.

As far as the "Engineering programs are geared toward development of conceptual skills, and consist of a sequence of engineering fundamentals and design courses, built on a foundation of complex mathematics and science courses. Engineering technology programs are oriented toward application, and provide their students introductory mathematics and science courses, and only a qualitative introduction to engineering fundamentals." statement I would have to disagree 100%!

i dont know of ANY Civil Engineer who took more math than i did, or physics or chemistry, or any other "complex mathematics and science courses". It simply isnt true.

I know the ONLY reason i had trouble with the FE exam was because of the inordinate amount of electrical problems on it. Made me wonder "WTF?!!" when you look around the room and only about 10 out of 100 kids taking it were elctrical and the rest of us were Civil??

honestly - I think you sold yourself short getting the ET degree rather than the real thing. Penn State is a great school too. I can imagine the frustration at having your degree being pegged as "inferior", the only thing I can say is that you should have done a little more research before investing the time and money.

An ET will never get you the same respect, or money, than an ABET Engineering degree would. You may posess great intellect --- but it will not change that objective reality.

 

[Paul S]

wilheldp_PE ~
i dont know of ANY Civil Engineer who took more math than i did, or physics or chemistry, or any other "complex mathematics and science courses". It simply isnt true.

I know the ONLY reason i had trouble with the FE exam was because of the inordinate amount of electrical problems on it. Made me wonder "WTF?!!" when you look around the room and only about 10 out of 100 kids taking it were elctrical and the rest of us were Civil??

I am not discrediting your work, but according to what Penn State lists as the curriculum for that program, the highest math course required is Calculus II. Penn State. From my ABET accredited BS in Mechanical Engineering program, I recall having at least 2 or 3 higher math courses beyond Calculus II.

I also recall having 2 or 3 electrical courses, and I didn't go for Electrical Engineering.

 

[Chucktown PE]

As a civil engineer at Clemson I had Calculus I, Calculus II, Multivariable Calculus, Linear Algebra, and Differential Equations.

We also had to take Physics with Electricity and Magnetism as well as a Circuits class.

 

[Supe]

honestly - I think you sold yourself short getting the ET degree rather than the real thing. Penn State is a great school too. I can imagine the frustration at having your degree being pegged as "inferior", the only thing I can say is that you should have done a little more research before investing the time and money.
An ET will never get you the same respect, or money, than an ABET Engineering degree would. You may posess great intellect --- but it will not change that objective reality.

Not too sure about the money issue. While it may differ in other fields (civil, structural, etc), my starting salary in the welding field was very much in the mix or more so than the starting salaries of many ABET-accredited grads. Granted, welding is a bit of an odd-man out, but I definitely wouldn't get carried away with a salary-based blanket statement. Quite a few of the guys working for us don't even have a college degree, and are making well over $100k before per piem based on construction knowledge and experience alone.

 

[MonteBiker]

my degree is in Structural Design and Construction Engineering Technology.
i dont know of ANY Civil Engineer who took more math than i did, or physics or chemistry, or any other "complex mathematics and science courses". It simply isnt true.

That is an awfully bold statement and I know that I can dispute you. Both of my degrees (BS ans MS) are in Civil. Even before my masters, I had taken more calculus, linear algebra and ordinary differential equations. I took partial differential equations in grad school for fun. I believe that up to ODE was a requirement for Civil.

I might even argue about the science part. CE students typically have to take wastewater, which is much more heavily weighted towards science than Basic Management... I seemed to have a majority of the classes that you took as well although condensed all of the construction courses down to a semester.

Here is the current curriculum for Penn State's Structural Design and Construction Engineering Tech program (it may have been updated though since you have been through...):

http://www.hbg.psu.edu/sdcet/

From what I can tell, it looks like a cross between a construction engineering and a construction management degree...