BS Engineering with Law Degree
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Since I'm a patent attorney with a PE, I'll add to the responses here. The answer to the question is like the answer to every other question in law: it depends!
First, there are too many lawyers. 40,000 graduates are taking the bar this week, and in a few months, at least 30,000 of them will become admitted attorneys. Few will have found employment by then, at least not in the legal field. Still, the benevolent USPTO limits the number of patent attorneys out there. Any lawyer can claim to be a "tax lawyer" or "criminal lawyer," but you must be registered with the PTO to call yourself a "patent lawyer." It's a recognized specialty. So fortunately, there is far less competition for the patent law jobs that do exist.
Still, as a civil engineer, the road to a solid position in patent law with a large firm or prestigious patent boutique is very uphill. Patent prosecution is hot right now in electrical, computer, and biotech, and lukewarm in mechanical. Civil engineering just does not represent the bleeding edge of technological development. Also, the PE license is pretty insignificant in the legal world (unless you're a expert witness).
As for money, large law firms pay well. $145-160k is the norm right now. However, keep in mind that those firms pay a ton because they have to, otherwise nobody would work there. The work-life balance is, well, nonexistent. There are late nights and long weekends, and many projects assigned to young associates are mind-numbing. To bill 2000 hours, you might end up working 2500 in a year. That's a lot of time in the office, or worse, on the road. People deal with it because they are six figures in student loan debt (which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy).
You might end up liking law better than engineering. I did, but it's not for everyone.
First, there are too many lawyers. 40,000 graduates are taking the bar this week, and in a few months, at least 30,000 of them will become admitted attorneys. Few will have found employment by then, at least not in the legal field. Still, the benevolent USPTO limits the number of patent attorneys out there. Any lawyer can claim to be a "tax lawyer" or "criminal lawyer," but you must be registered with the PTO to call yourself a "patent lawyer." It's a recognized specialty. So fortunately, there is far less competition for the patent law jobs that do exist.
Still, as a civil engineer, the road to a solid position in patent law with a large firm or prestigious patent boutique is very uphill. Patent prosecution is hot right now in electrical, computer, and biotech, and lukewarm in mechanical. Civil engineering just does not represent the bleeding edge of technological development. Also, the PE license is pretty insignificant in the legal world (unless you're a expert witness).
As for money, large law firms pay well. $145-160k is the norm right now. However, keep in mind that those firms pay a ton because they have to, otherwise nobody would work there. The work-life balance is, well, nonexistent. There are late nights and long weekends, and many projects assigned to young associates are mind-numbing. To bill 2000 hours, you might end up working 2500 in a year. That's a lot of time in the office, or worse, on the road. People deal with it because they are six figures in student loan debt (which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy).
You might end up liking law better than engineering. I did, but it's not for everyone.
Flyer_PE
Jr. PE / Sr. Company Pilot
I know at least one nuclear plant in WI was offering right at six figures for Systems Engineers last year. With new construction coming, the demand is pretty high for people with nuclear experience right now.
chaosiscash
Subcontractor
Chucktown PE
Well-known member
I can't tell if you're implying that I'm lacking in the initiative department or not. I'll assume you're not. I work a solid 50 to 60 hours every week and I have other sources of income (stock market and used boat sales) that makes me some more money on the side. I know plenty of people in my company that are making $100k but let's be honest, that's just not that much money any more. I just think that in general, you're not going to get rich in this profession. Even if you do open your own shop, the chances of you ever making good money are slim.
I looked at law school long and hard after I became a PE. I went as far as applying and taking the LSAT.
But I looked at what I'd likely make after graduation versus what I'd make if I just kept my present course and figured the "extra" over the next 20 years would just about pay off the expense of law school.
So I am presently looking at grad schools for business / management. Tuition will be about $15k compared to $100k for law school and the investment of time is similarly less.
Not many people are successfully going to law school to make big money these days.
One of my coworkers graduated from a Big Ten law school in 2006 but stayed here until last month. He got a couple offers after graduation but they were significant pay cuts. I think he still took a smaller pay cut when he left here but I'm not sure.
I'm not implying that at all. I recently moved from a place were engineers are not highly paid to an area were, by and large, they are. It was a life change and we left a rather leisurly environment of beaches, family and friends to a big dirty city with long work hours. It was not an easy decision and one I still think about.
and you're right - $100k is not what it used to be - but back to the topic of the board, there are a lot of lawyers that would kill to make six figures right now.
My point is people should not be so negative about Engineering as a profession and (if money is your interest) opportunities *are* out there.
Also, the "success" rate for all Engineering firms is about 65% (so I was told), much higher than most other businesses. A "successful" engineering firm can easily net the proprietor 6 figures. "Success" meaning a business able to provide a primary source of income for the proprietor.
Will that make you Bill Gates? no, but a decent living nonetheless.
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Chucktown PE
Well-known member
I guess I've been pretty peeved with my job and my company lately and that is spilling over into resentment if you can't tell. We didn't get raises this year and the executive committee is "studying" a 10% across the board pay cut.
I really regret not going to medical school. I often think about taking a couple of classes and taking the MCAT to see what happens. But I have two kids and a wife that doesn't work and spending the next 10 years in school/residency/fellowship will mean that I'll miss thier childhood.
I really regret not going to medical school. I often think about taking a couple of classes and taking the MCAT to see what happens. But I have two kids and a wife that doesn't work and spending the next 10 years in school/residency/fellowship will mean that I'll miss thier childhood.
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benbo
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These days, I don't even think it is wise to go into med school if your reason is to earn more money. I make almost as much as my GP doc. And with the new healthcare proposals, who knows what is going to happen to doctor's pay. To make a lot you have to be a specialist, and that takes even more time.
IMO Med school is something to start when you're young, single, and because you want to go into medicine.
Somewhat unrelated: If you are really interested you can go to the aamc website and take a free practice MCAT for fun. Not sure how accurate it is, but I like taking those kinds of tests. I personally think that most engineers would kick butt on these tests, compared to your typical biology major.
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Chucktown PE
Well-known member
To clarify, I didn't mean I wanted to go to medical school just to become a doctor. I think it would be more rewarding than what I'm doing now and I would have enjoyed it more. Or course the grass is always greener on the other side.
CivE Bricky
Well-known member
I'm curious, Chucktown - what it about medicine that grabs you that you're not finding in your current job? Is there a way to add some of that to the mix, perhaps by changing jobs, but not career?
I'd also considered med school a couple times - once for as long as thirty seconds. It doesn't take long to remember how bad I was at chemistry and that's the end of that daydream.
It's a bimodal distribution. Coming out of law school, new associates cluster around $60k or $160k, with almost nobody in the middle. Top students from top schools get $160k, and the best of the rest settle for the $60k jobs. Everyone else goes their own separate ways. Most move back in with their parents. However, they usually have undergraduate degrees in English or Political Science... :suicide1:
I work in my own law office, and most of my clients are contractors. (I also do some family law, and I hate it, but I digress.) The contractors like that I am a PE, and that is my selling point to them. I always found the claims, disputes, and arguments over extras to be the most interesting parts of engineering work. Now that is my life, so it's cool. Still, I don't make as much as most engineers, although I am trying to get there. Also, I will probably never work in patent law, and I am still coming to terms with that unfortunate reality.
I guess I'm doing this: :deadhorse:
Take home point: someone should only go to law school if law is what that person wants to do.
Even still, I think Rep. Jim Oberstar will get his way sooner or later (this is a good thing), and engineering will become hot and in demand. America is moving forward in the transportation sector, and someone is going to get a piece of that action.
FYI: My coworker was making $60k here as a planner (not an engineer). Sounds like most of his new clients are land developers who are trying to force their developments into municipalities that don't want them (going for variances, filing appeals, etc)
Road Guy
Well-known member
My grandfather was an ME, he ended being a part owner of a firm that designed and built incinerators (International Incinerators Incorporated) they dont do much work in the states since landfills ran him overseas, anyways he did pretty well for himself, but he gave me a fairly important piece of advice when I graduated.
I am going to paraphrase a little because this was a while ago when he told me this but it was pretty close to something like..
Dont be obsessed with what you make in the first 5 to 10 years of your career, dont get consumed on what the person in the next office is making, focus on what you are getting paid to do, do it well, do whatever they ask you to do (within reason) dont turn down shitty assignments, jump on them, be a finisher, be someone thought of who gets things done, and if you do all those things then the financial part of the career will work itself out in your favor.
At the time that didnt mean a whole lot to me when I graduated but I could hear it in the background my first few years out of college, true we have to worry about our salaries to some extent, but I think what he was saying was fairly accurate and I would relay that information to any new graduate or new PE.
I am going to paraphrase a little because this was a while ago when he told me this but it was pretty close to something like..
Dont be obsessed with what you make in the first 5 to 10 years of your career, dont get consumed on what the person in the next office is making, focus on what you are getting paid to do, do it well, do whatever they ask you to do (within reason) dont turn down shitty assignments, jump on them, be a finisher, be someone thought of who gets things done, and if you do all those things then the financial part of the career will work itself out in your favor.
At the time that didnt mean a whole lot to me when I graduated but I could hear it in the background my first few years out of college, true we have to worry about our salaries to some extent, but I think what he was saying was fairly accurate and I would relay that information to any new graduate or new PE.
mcap8
Active member
A handful of friends of mine (and a co-worker) were engineers and later obtained JDs. The ones that made the switch into Law struggled early on from the ego blow of being considered 'junior' status. Most of them didn't go the litigation route, but rather work in codes, environmental regulatory law, etc. Then they seemed to do well, but I still like to call them lawyer scum to their faces!
picusld
Well-known member
To add on to the supply and demand argument, I just became aware that the NCEES will be requiring a master's degree, PhD, or 30 additional credits in order to sit for the PE exam starting either 2015 or 2020 (I have seen two different reports) along with the experience requirement. That is only going to make the license more valuble in the future.
picusld
Well-known member
The additional value will come by less people getting their PE due to not being able to obtain the education requirement. Therefore, less PEs will equal more money to the ones that have it. Theoretically...
It's a double edge sword. Too few P.E.'s out there could have the opposite effect.
As it is now, more and more industries - even exempt industries, like the title P.E. 'cause it gives them a warm and fuzzy feeling that they are hiring quality. If it gets too restrictive, Industry will simply ignore it as irrelevant and more of an academic association and come up with there own standards - and lower salaries.
