B.S. plus 30

[benbo]

I'm not sure which part of what I said you disagree with. If you disagree with the first three paragraphs well, I am just putting down my experience. If you are disagreeing with the last paragraph you may be right, especially for civil engineers, I don't know that much about civil engineers.

I'm not sure why you put engineering in quotation referring to computers. I know there are people here who don't believe in software engineers, I guess that is debatable. But I think most people agree there are computer engineers. Or at least electrical engineers, which represent a lot of the imported engineers. Or do you believe only licensed civil engineers can use the term "engineer."

 

[Dleg]

One of the smartest men I ever knew was a shop forman at a metal fab/machining place who said, "you can draw a paper asshole, but you can't make it sh**."

WOW. I like that one...

 

[GSavant]

I'm not sure which part of what I said you disagree with. If you disagree with the first three paragraphs well, I am just putting down my experience. If you are disagreeing with the last paragraph you may be right, especially for civil engineers, I don't know that much about civil engineers.
I'm not sure why you put engineering in quotation referring to computers. I know there are people here who don't believe in software engineers, I guess that is debatable. But I think most people agree there are computer engineers. Or at least electrical engineers, which represent a lot of the imported engineers. Or do you believe only licensed civil engineers can use the term "engineer."

I am sorry for not clarifying which part of your post I disagreed with, yep, it was the last paragraph.

You're right I do not consider anything other than the first three basic engineering offshoots (Mechanical, electrical and Civil) to be engineering, however if other "engineering" fields want to add engineers to their qualifications they must pass the FE and PE, and be accountable for their work, I mean what's up with the rider in software agreements " the producer of this software makes no claims about the reliability of the software", in Mech or Civil it'd be equivalent to "The builder of this "bridge/pump makes no guarantees to the stability and reliability of the bridge/pump". I hate Microsoft and other tech companies adding engineer to every tom, dick and harry who's passed the Microsoft certification test. That's b$#%.

But, I took this thread way off course, my apologies.

 

[benbo]

I am sorry for not clarifying which part of your post I disagreed with, yep, it was the last paragraph.
You're right I do not consider anything other than the first three basic engineering offshoots (Mechanical, electrical and Civil) to be engineering, however if other "engineering" fields want to add engineers to their qualifications they must pass the FE and PE, and be accountable for their work, I mean what's up with the rider in software agreements " the producer of this software makes no claims about the reliability of the software", in Mech or Civil it'd be equivalent to "The builder of this "bridge/pump makes no guarantees to the stability and reliability of the bridge/pump". I hate Microsoft and other tech companies adding engineer to every tom, dick and harry who's passed the Microsoft certification test. That's b$#%.

But, I took this thread way off course, my apologies.

So I guess you wouldn't consider the electrical and mechanical engineers who design our defense systems and put a man on the moon engineers because most of them haven't passed (or even really heard of) the FE. And that would certainly mean that there are no chemical or environmental engineers. And of course, anyone who hasn't passed the PE yet should not call themselves an engineer under any circumstances.

Well, I've debated this point ad naseum. I completely disagree, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

 

[roadmonkey]

I am really mixed on this...

I use about 1% of anything I learned in college to perform my job. On the job training is essential to the "real life" tasks of desiging a project, and I thought that is why you need X number of years experience to apply for the PE exam. I can count the number of engineers with a masters that I know on one hand.

But, I would love to have the opportunity to further my education, as long as it something that will be useful. I also believe it may make a better more knowledgable engineer, given the correct curriculum.

 

[GSavant]

So I guess you wouldn't consider the electrical and mechanical engineers who design our defense systems and put a man on the moon engineers because most of them haven't passed (or even really heard of) the FE. And that would certainly mean that there are no chemical or environmental engineers. And of course, anyone who hasn't passed the PE yet should not call themselves an engineer under any circumstances. Well, I've debated this point ad naseum. I completely disagree, but everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Anyone who hasn't passed the PE is not an Engineer and the FE only makes you an Engineer Intern, in all probability the state board laws list that as one of the restrictions, the one in MS sure a heck does. As for the Defense systems and Moon engineers not knowing what the FE is or having passed the PE, I'll believe that when you supply some concrete proof behind that statement. BTW, anyone can design systems, it's the robustness and validity of the design that is checked and stamped by the PE. I design systems and I am not a PE (yet), but my boss is and he signs off on the designs ( after a thorough screening).

 

[benbo]

Anyone who hasn't passed the PE is not an Engineer and the FE only makes you an Engineer Intern, in all probability the state board laws list that as one of the restrictions, the one in MS sure a heck does. As for the Defense systems and Moon engineers not knowing what the FE is or having passed the PE, I'll believe that when you supply some concrete proof behind that statement. BTW, anyone can design systems, it's the robustness and validity of the design that is checked and stamped by the PE. I design systems and I am not a PE (yet), but my boss is and he signs off on the designs ( after a thorough screening).

My co worker was an engineer at NASA for 10 years. He has no PE.

I worked in the defense industry for 15 years. Nobody I knew had a PE. Look at adds for Boeing, NASA, Lockheed, none of them require or mention PEs. I only checked the first 10 openings, but none of them ask for PEs or even mention licensing. I don't know what I can show you to prove something to you that you just don't want to believe.

Here are a couple samples from Lockheed

Req ID 49162BR

Industry Job Title Electrical Engineer Sr

Standard Job Code/Title E1443:Electrical Engineer Sr

Required skills Demonstrated understanding of COTS component integration with specific knowledge in networking and serial connectivity. Applicant shall also have a solid understanding of reference designators and their application.

Desired skills UGS Ideas, EPDM, experience designing Network Architectures. Domain experience with digitized SIGINT processing systems.

Specific Job Description Provide electrical engineering support for customer programs. This includes requirements analysis, design and development utilizing a CAD tool to create system Interconnect Drawings and an Enterprise Product Data Management tool to create and manage associated parts lists, fabrication assistance/support, creation of production/integration operations orders, perform/provide support for system integration and testing activities both in-plant and at customer sites.

Applicants selected will be subject to a government security investigation and must meet eligibility requirements for access to classified information.

Standard Job Description Researches, develops, designs, and tests electrical components, equipment, systems, and networks. Designs electrical equipment, facilities, components, products, and systems for commercial, industrial, and domestic purposes.

Security Clearance Top Secret/Special Security Requirements

Typical Minimums Bachelors degree from an accredited college in a related discipline, or equivalent experience/combined education, with 5 years of professional experience; or 3 years of professional experience with a related Masters degree. Considered career, or journey, level.

Standard Job Code/Title E1442:Electrical Engineer

Required skills An understanding of mechanical and electromechanical systems, instruments and controls is required along with National Instruments LabVIEW and TestStand Applications, instrument automation, General Purpose Interface Bus (GPIB), and PCI eXtensions for Instrumentation (PXI) proficiency. DIAdem, CVI, C/C++, and either MySQL or Access, and laboratory equipment experience is desired. Good troubleshooting skills are a must.

Desired skills Knowledge of PRO-E and Design Intralink CAD Software, software and hardware integration are desired skills. Good communications skills, Flexible and adaptable, Works well in teams.

Specific Job Description The candidate will support development of the Exploration Electrical Power Systems Test (EEST) Facility. Design and layout of laboratory systems controls, instrumentation, test equipment, and interfaces to engineering and flight hardware. Test and integrate the laboratory testbed with interfaces to engineering and flight hardware, and spacecraft modules.

Typical Minimums Bachelors degree from an accredited college in a related discipline, or equivalent experience/combined education, with 2 years of professional experience; or no experience required with a related Masters degree. Considered experienced, but still a learner.

 

[IlPadrino]

My co worker was an engineer at NASA for 10 years. He has no PE. I worked in the defense industry for 15 years. Nobody I knew had a PE. Look at adds for Boeing, NASA, Lockheed, none of them require or mention PEs. I only checked the first 10 openings, but none of them ask for PEs or even mention licensing. I don't know what I can show you to prove something to you that you just don't want to believe.

Here are a couple samples from Lockheed

I don't think the Federal government is bound by the State laws, so the Defense industry and NASA would be clear exceptions. I believe you... there are people using the Engineer title all over the Defense industry without being registered as a PE.

Perhaps the better question to ask is this: Is this practice good for the Engineering profession?

And, of course, if you work in a State that doesn't explicitly provide you an exemption nor do you work for the Federal government, you shouldn't "by the law" use the title Engineer without registration if it is prohibited.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Did they even have PEs when the moon program was going? I didn't think PE registration started until sometime in the early 70s.

 

[ClemsonEngr]

You know some of you touched on a big problem. Why are more Engineering College Professors not Licensed? Why are the department chairs not licensed? In my humble opinion this should be MANDITORY! I heard at the last FES (Florida Engineering Society) that you could count all of the Licensed professors in the major Florida Engineering schools on one hand.

 

[IlPadrino]

You know some of you touched on a big problem. Why are more Engineering College Professors not Licensed? Why are the department chairs not licensed? In my humble opinion this should be MANDITORY! I heard at the last FES (Florida Engineering Society) that you could count all of the Licensed professors in the major Florida Engineering schools on one hand.

Why? Because there is no incentive. Certainly not for the professorship and probably not even for the University.

 

[Slugger926]

Why? Because there is no incentive. Certainly not for the professorship and probably not even for the University.

There is a legal incentive. The univeristies and the professors themselves can't advertise themselves as engineers legally without a PE. Turn them into the boards, and have the boards force them into the exam and/or fine them along with orders to surrender their position/advertising until they comply. Give them a grace period to take the exam.

:deadhorse: :brickwall:

 

[IlPadrino]

There is a legal incentive. The univeristies and the professors themselves can't advertise themselves as engineers legally without a PE. Turn them into the boards, and have the boards force them into the exam and/or fine them along with orders to surrender their position/advertising until they comply. Give them a grace period to take the exam.
:deadhorse: :brickwall:

What titles are they using? Can you give some actual examples? I never noticed professors using "Engineer" titles but admittedly I wasn't paying much attention.

I like the idea of reporting them to the boards - should be easy enough in some states. And if they're members of the NSPE there's that route as well.

 

[Guest]

What titles are they using? Can you give some actual examples? I never noticed professors using "Engineer" titles but admittedly I wasn't paying much attention.

I just took a look at some letters received from professors without professional registration that is signed XXX, PhD. I don't see any title included in the signature block.

I have only received solicited opinions from professors regarding engineering designs. I have never been engaged in a situation where the professor was 'responsible' for the engineering design.

That my :2cents: - other comments welcomed.

JR

 

[Slugger926]

How can you teach engineering without being an engineer? They can't legally be an engineer without maintaining a P.E.

It would be easy for the boards to proactivily enforce by just picking up class schedules, and comparing the teachers for "engineering classes" to the state roster.

arty-smiley-048:

Licensing of engineering teachers should be an ABET requirement.

 

[Guest]

Licensing of engineering teachers should be an ABET requirement.

I think ABET has been pushing for professional registration amongst the faculty at ABET-accredited colleges. I know many of the professors I have taken classes with in my graduate program have been scrambling to take the exam. A few have even passed the exam recently :true:

JR

 

[IlPadrino]

How can you teach engineering without being an engineer? They can't legally be an engineer without maintaining a P.E.
It would be easy for the boards to proactivily enforce by just picking up class schedules, and comparing the teachers for "engineering classes" to the state roster.

arty-smiley-048:

Licensing of engineering teachers should be an ABET requirement.

OK... I can't tell where the tongue meets the cheek lately... Who says you can't teach engineering without being an engineer? Do you need to be a lawyer to teach others about the law?

Maybe things would be simpler if we distinguish between an Engineer and an engineer.

I'd bet large amounts of beer (I'm talking kegs!) that there no State laws that prohibit teaching engineer knowledge without being registered by the State Board as a Professional Engineer. State boards can't just make up laws, don't you know...

 

[ClemsonEngr]

I think ABET has been pushing for professional registration amongst the faculty at ABET-accredited colleges. I know many of the professors I have taken classes with in my graduate program have been scrambling to take the exam. A few have even passed the exam recently :true:
JR

That's refreshing. Good for them. Maybe more will get motivated. What school did you attend for graduate school? Did they do it because they had to, or because they felt they should?

 

[Undertaker]

Guys you are beating a dead horse :deadhorse: and guess what. Its not going anywhere

 

[Guest]

What school did you attend for graduate school? Did they do it because they had to, or because they felt they should?

I am actually *STILL* a graduate student at Florida State University. I will be graduating in December :thankyou:

The professors that I know that have passed the exam since I have been there began seeking licensure for both reasons. ABET has been pushing hard to increase the number of licensed faculty members at universities as far as ABET accreditation/review of accreditation is concerned. These professors were also seeking to include consulting activities as part of thier CV and were unable to without a license, so I think the overlapping needs probably served as the driver to start pursuing professional licensure.

JR