B.S. plus 30

[chaosiscash]

I can imagine that....NCEES South Carolina would be the most expensive property in the table...GO TO TEST SITE.

That I can definately agree with. After all NCEES's office is right across the lake from Clemson, which is, of course, God's Country.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

Thanks for reminding me that JR.NCEES created ELSES so they can administer the test too. Define monopoly and absolute power.
Maybe Milton Bradley will design a Monopoly game with a NCEES theme soon.

Actually, it's Parker Brothers that does Monopoly.

You could have the railroads be the 4 NCEES pencil colors.

 

[udpolo15]

I thought I would chime in on the whole issue of the NCEES and its power. Straight from their website

"The National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) is a national non-profit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all states and U.S. territories."

It doesn't exist to tell the states what to do, but exist for the states to collaborate on what to do. If each state made their own test, there would be no way to compare engineers from state to state. That is bad, we should all want standardization. Without a standard licensing procedure companies may not invest in new areas because they are unsure of the qualifications of the engineering workforce in that state.

I don't see much how it is all that different than the ABA for lawyers or NBME for doctors.

 

[IlPadrino]

I do not entirely agree with your point here. NCEES, et al has gotten into the business of FOISTING products onto the state licensing agencies. In just the ~ 6 yrs I have been actively participating in obtaining licensure I have seen ELSES:
1. Become the RESPONSIBLE party for developing the exams and scores for the P.E. exams. They do this under the 'model' that your license should be readily portable,

2. Develop an arm called ELSES that administers the exam for the majority of the states, and

3. Develop a NCEES Record program that practically every state is buying into as NECESSARY in order to obtain licensure by endorsement in other states.

My fear is that NCEES has become so embedded in the licensure process that state boards have almost ABDICATED thier duties in favor of a national clearinghouse. I believe if NCEES being the money whores that they appear to be want to push requiring the 30+ concept they will be able to easily foist that upon states because of the voice they already have in the decision-making process.

While I agree with you that becoming involved in your state boards decisions is necessary, it WILL NOT prevent the expansion of the NCEES power machine to continue to dictate wishes and desires upon the individual state licensing boards. All of this in the name of conformity.

JR,

How is this any different than other professions such as lawyers? Each State has their own "bar" and entrance requires, among other things in almost all States, passing of the Multistate Bar Examination (MBE) which is developed by the National Conference of Bar Examiners. They make it much easier and more economical for the State Boards, that's for sure.

Don't get me wrong... I'm no fan of NCEES - but it's mostly because for a non-profit they sure do make me pay them a lot of money.

 

[Road Guy]

you know this whole concept is more of a reason we need to go ahead with our new prof. engineering organization we talked about forming.

 

[Tark62]

My fear is that NCEES has become so embedded in the licensure process that state boards have almost ABDICATED thier duties in favor of a national clearinghouse. I believe if NCEES being the money whores that they appear to be want to push requiring the 30+ concept they will be able to easily foist that upon states because of the voice they already have in the decision-making process.
While I agree with you that becoming involved in your state boards decisions is necessary, it WILL NOT prevent the expansion of the NCEES power machine to continue to dictate wishes and desires upon the individual state licensing boards. All of this in the name of conformity.

If you read PE discussion forums, you'll find that candidates for licensure by reciprocity routinely complain about the hassles caused by differences in state licensing laws. For example:

- State A strictly demands an ABET BS degree, while State B doesn't;

- State D wants 8 years of professional experience, while State E only needs 6;

- State C wants supplemental civil exams, while no other state requires this;

- State F wants 4 PE references, and they have to be from your discipline, while State G only requires 3 PE references from any discipline;

etc, etc, etc

I think this the first time I've ever seen someone make the opposite complaint, i.e. that state licensing laws are becoming too uniform and standardized.

 

[Dleg]

I'm personally all for NCEES. I think they do a pretty decent job, all things considered (such as all they can do is "recommend" policies to states). I agree that it would total chaos if there were no unifying organization to provide at least the basic framework for licensing amongst all the states.

And while I don't like paying fees, when you consider all that they have to do, and the number of professionals that must work on their products (all while wanting to be paid a decent salary just like us), it makes sense to me.

 

[Dleg]

As far as engineers making better pay, I agree with the principle that we get what we settle for. I live in a part of the country that Bush wants to immitate with his proposed "guest worker" plan for the mainland. Out of a population of about 60,000, more than half are foreign workers. There are a handful of PEs (I can count 12 from memory) who own businesses or work in the government, and probably 100 or more non-licensed foreign engineers working for (no ****) $3.55 an hour - the going minimum wage here - or about $25-30k, if they are lucky enough to land a job in the public works or utility. And you know what? They're happy to work for those wages, and happy to show their bosses that they can do what YOU can do, for a tiny fraction of what you expect to be paid.

And while a Doctor can command higher prices because he's saving your life, there's a lot less incentive for people to pay more for engineering services. In fact, in my experience, most developers will usually opt for the lowest cost provider, not necessarily the premium services. The industry here has borne this out: The "quality" firms who hire US-educated engineers & PEs only get the government work, where the RFP requirements are strict in what is required. The commercial development is almost universally performed by the $3.55 engineers, who often work for the construction contractor (another cost savings), and have their work rubber-stamped by some PE willing to risk the ethical violation to get all that business. This, I feel, is a pre-view of what is going to be happening in the Mainland US over the next few decades. It's already happening in manufacturing - a skeleton staff of engineers in the mainland come up with the ideas and concepts, while all the detailed engineering and manufacturing is done off-shore for pennies on the dollar. It's only a matter of time before that happens to the A&E business.

So with all that said, I don't think the BS +30 matters so much, but if it will help me keep my competitive edge over the foreigners, then I guess I don't have much choice but to accept it.

 

[Flyer_PE]

This, I feel, is a pre-view of what is going to be happening in the Mainland US over the next few decades. It's already happening in manufacturing - a skeleton staff of engineers in the mainland come up with the ideas and concepts, while all the detailed engineering and manufacturing is done off-shore for pennies on the dollar. It's only a matter of time before that happens to the A&E business.

In some cases I think the cheap off-shore engineering is moving back. I know of one company that has already discovered that cleaning up the mistakes generated by their "cheap" labor force was costing more than if they had paid somebody over here to do the work in the first place. To me, the bottom line is that you really do get what you pay for. My personal objective is to make sure I'm worth at least what I'm being paid.

Jim

 

[chaosiscash]

you know this whole concept is more of a reason we need to go ahead with our new prof. engineering organization we talked about forming.

I agree 100%

 

[chaosiscash]

I think this the first time I've ever seen someone make the opposite complaint, i.e. that state licensing laws are becoming too uniform and standardized.

I just want to make sure ya'll understand what I'm saying, and then I'll drop it. I'm not saying that stadardization isn't a good thing, just that engineers that actually work in the industry, and not a group of profs, should be the ones influencing policy related to the field. And since NCEES is pretty much a lost cause for engineers in the field, the only recourse we have is to lobby with the state boards, which are "supposed" to work for us (as members of the voting public).

 

[Tark62]

I just want to make sure ya'll understand what I'm saying, and then I'll drop it. I'm not saying that stadardization isn't a good thing, just that engineers that actually work in the industry, and not a group of profs, should be the ones influencing policy related to the field. And since NCEES is pretty much a lost cause for engineers in the field, the only recourse we have is to lobby with the state boards, which are "supposed" to work for us (as members of the voting public).

Your post implies that NCEES is an independent academic organization, with no connection to the state boards. You might want to take another look.
In fact, NCEES is "a national non-profit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all states and U.S. territories." NCEES is administered by state board representatives. NCEES policies are determined by votes of state board representatives. The engineers in NCEES generally have many years of experience in industry and on state boards.

For example, the current NCEES president is a PE/SE who also serves on the Illlinois Structural Engineering Board, has more than 40 years of consulting experience, and led the investigation of the World Trade Center collapse. The NCEES president-elect, who takes office next year, is an Electrical PE who serves on the Florida Board for Professional Engineers, and who has 50 years of experience.

NCEES has no particular academic connections, and is not "a group of profs". Perhaps you are confusing NCEES with ABET, the organization that accredits college engineering degree programs.

 

[chaosiscash]

Your post implies that NCEES is an independent academic organization, with no connection to the state boards. You might want to take another look.
In fact, NCEES is "a national non-profit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all states and U.S. territories." NCEES is administered by state board representatives. NCEES policies are determined by votes of state board representatives. The engineers in NCEES generally have many years of experience in industry and on state boards.

For example, the current NCEES president is a PE/SE who also serves on the Illlinois Structural Engineering Board, has more than 40 years of consulting experience, and led the investigation of the World Trade Center collapse. The NCEES president-elect, who takes office next year, is an Electrical PE who serves on the Florida Board for Professional Engineers, and who has 50 years of experience.

NCEES has no particular academic connections, and is not "a group of profs". Perhaps you are confusing NCEES with ABET, the organization that accredits college engineering degree programs.

I'm not confusing them, I know (personally) quite a few professors that work or have worked with NCEES. After all, most Clemson professors have at some time or another, its real good extra money for them. And my statement that the individual boards have to approve any changes to state law or statue, regardless of whether NCEES approves or recommends it, it also correct. And your government works for you, but only if you are involved. But anyway, I'm out of the discussion, this defeatist attitude is driving me crazy, so I'm just going to let it go.

 

[Road Guy]

true, but you cant disocunt that a lot (I would guess at least half) of the engineers on state boards are there due to political contacts more so than as a testimonial to their engineering resume.

& If you have ever spent any time close to politics then you know most everything exists to make someone some $$$$ & I would almost certify that it "aint us"

 

[chaosiscash]

& If you have ever spent any time close to politics then you know most everything exists to make someone some $$$$ & I would almost certify that it "aint us"

I agree, which is why I think engineers need a professional society / lobbying group (like an NSPE that hasn't lost its focus) to work for them with the state and fed governments.

 

[Dleg]

^^I agree 100%. So what are we going to do about it? No one is going to step in and do it for us.

 

[NCST8ENGR]

I don't agree with the BS+30 deal - one bit

I'd much rather have an engineer with experience in the field that has been groomed by peer PE's along their development path to seal/stamp that the design in question meets or exceeds design criteria - verses an engineer that had 30 more hours of differential equations and is more geared toward a "theoretical solution"...One of the smartest men I ever knew was a shop forman at a metal fab/machining place who said, "you can draw a paper asshole, but you can't make it sh**."

The only way to invoke change is to be the changer... and to do that we must get into the organizations and be the voice that needs to be heard.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

I have a Master's and I can honestly say that I learned nothing during that time that was pertinent to the real world. I even worked R&D for a while and never used the stuff I learned in grad school.

 

[udpolo15]

I don't agree with the BS+30 deal - one bit
I'd much rather have an engineer with experience in the field that has been groomed by peer PE's along their development path to seal/stamp that the design in question meets or exceeds design criteria - verses an engineer that had 30 more hours of differential equations and is more geared toward a "theoretical solution"...One of the smartest men I ever knew was a shop forman at a metal fab/machining place who said, "you can draw a paper asshole, but you can't make it sh**."

The only way to invoke change is to be the changer... and to do that we must get into the organizations and be the voice that needs to be heard.

Did I miss something? I thought the +30 was in addition to the experience requirements.

 

[GSavant]

Not all lawyers and doctors are created equal. Plus lawyers and doctors are two different animals.
There are so many lawyers now, that a lot of them cannot even make a living. My mom was a lawyer for 35 years and never made over 40,000. There are gov't lawyers working with me who make less than I do. And lot's of lawyers can't find work at all. Unless you graduate from a top school, or really hustle to make your bones, you are not going to get super rich as a lawyer.

As stated here, doctors make a lot of money because of the law of supply and demand. They strictly control entrance to med school and the gov't controls what medical professionals can do. THey could easily allow three times as many people into med school and still have competent docs. But with that said, even the medical regulations and pay is changing. I know a lot of doctors from various ways - two sick parents, my own illnesses, I went to school with a lot of them, and I have a lot of them as neighbors. THey make a good living but not all are super rich. It depends on their specialization. My own pcp makes about $150,000 a year. Granted, that is a pretty good salary, but not a fortune. More and more, regulations are being relaxed and now physicians assistants and nurse practictioners do a lot of the work formerly only performed by physicians. And as we move to more HMOs and maybe even some sort of gov't health care, salaries will have to go down.

The real problem with engineering salaries is that we allow foreign engineers in at too great a ratre and for too low a salary. Engineering is fairly self regulating - it is hard and not many people understand it. That's why fewer and fewer Americans are becoming engineers. I'm all for HB-1 visas as long as they can't find the engineers here, and are not an excuse for companies to pay slave wages just because they can get away with it. I don't think requiring a Master's degree is going to help anything. And if they had the kind of selectivity they have for med school for engineering school, I'm not really sure I would have made it. And I do a good job. I don't think that is necessary.

I don't agree, H1B's might be a problem in "engineering" fields such as computers , but all the foreign Civil Engineers I know make a butt load of money, more than what I make for sure.

I think it's a perceptions issue, people just don't think about engineers or how much more we need to be making based on our specializations, plus tack on the fact that most Civil engineering or other engineering work is funded either by the feds or the state and you'll notice that increasing our pay would require an increase in taxes.