Are Engineers Expendable

[roadwreck]

Actually they do after 5 years including room/board and books, in state and out of state is a significant differernce.

I know there is a significant difference between in-state tuition and out of state tuition, but still, paying out of state tuition at a state school isn't that bad. Much more reasonable that going to a private school. I would know, I went out of state to a state school. It wasn't a half bad school either. If you can get some scholarships, grants and work while your in school (I co-oped) you can make it out without being in mountains of debt.

 

[rppearso]

I know there is a significant difference between in-state tuition and out of state tuition, but still, paying out of state tuition at a state school isn't that bad. Much more reasonable that going to a private school. I would know, I went out of state to a state school. It wasn't a half bad school either. If you can get some scholarships, grants and work while your in school (I co-oped) you can make it out without being in mountains of debt.

Technically Colorado School of Mines was a state school but everything about them really was private, I had a half ride but still had 70K in debt, but boulder was just as expensive, work while in school is kind of a joke seeing as how much time it takes away from your studies and how small of a dent it makes in teh over all expense of everthing and co-ops just drag school out I did not want to have to be there any longer than I had to be, not having a car and not getting laid was not something I wanted to drag on. I just did my finances for 2010 and can have my loans paid before next christmas so then I can start working on my mortgage and pay that off in a few years then contracting will be viable becasue I will only need like 10K to live on for like a few years and by that time that should put me in the 7-10 years of experience sweet spot so we will see what happens. My second degree in EE is definitly going to be piece mailed and at instate tuition rates so like 500$ class for about 12 classes.

 

[roadwreck]

sounds like you have it all figured out

 

[IlPadrino]

Since one of you is in the military here, the military does not even recognize engineering degrees as professionals (ie get to skip basic and OCS and start off as a capt like doctors and JAG do, even if you have a PE, masters or PhD in engineering you still wont get a direct commission to capt like docs and JAG get. When I was in the gaurd for 2 years I was treated as any rank and file private and that did not sit well with me hence the 2 year part. The profession does not really command any respect anymore, it really is very sad.

It's a simple supply and demand relationship... the military has to offer incentives to get the docs and lawyers that they don't have to offer for other professions. Interestingly, the Navy's Civil Engineer Corps now has a Critical Skills Retention Bonus (CSRB) designed to keep junior officers in. Leadership would have laughed at the thought of this ten years ago. But it's not nothing with "respect".

If you're looking for "title" respect, Engineering is the wrong field! And in the military, title respect is only earned with time (which leads to promotion!). Don't think the docs or lawyers get treated any differently than a boot ensign when they first enter service.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Actually they do after 5 years including room/board and books, in state and out of state is a significant differernce.

Except in SC where it is actually CHEAPER in some cases for an SC resident to go out of state/ That is a ridiculous state of affairs, but there it is.

sounds like you have it all figured out

I got that impression from the beginning.

 

[MechGuy]

If you're looking for "title" respect, Engineering is the wrong field! And in the military, title respect is only earned with time (which leads to promotion!). Don't think the docs or lawyers get treated any differently than a boot ensign when they first enter service.

I spent 7 years as a civil engineer in the Air Force, and most folks in the military had little to no "respect" for the medical or JAG corps. IlPadrino is correct, respect in the military is earned...certainly not given because you are a doctor or lawyer in the military and happen to be an officer.

 

[picusld]

I spent 7 years as a civil engineer in the Air Force, and most folks in the military had little to no "respect" for the medical or JAG corps. IlPadrino is correct, respect in the military is earned...certainly not given because you are a doctor or lawyer in the military and happen to be an officer.

Agreed. I did 6yrs in the Air Force National Guard and completed my civil engineering degree while in the service. I was offered a retention bonus to stay in, but declined it since my job was in aircraft maintenance.

I was a little suprised though that I was not approached to stay in the service doing an engineering job. After all, it was their money that covered my tuition and living expenses while in school, but oh well...

 

[EnvEngineer]

"I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money"

One of my younger brothers made a statement like this in front of my wife, he is recovering, he stammers a little and will not be in the same room alone with her but he will be fine.

You do not want to live the first 10 years of my married life where I am working full time and going to school full time to get a BS and then a Masters, how we stayed together was a miracle but we made it and now work our asses off to put our kids through school so they have an easier life.

 

[rppearso]

"I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money"
One of my younger brothers made a statement like this in front of my wife, he is recovering, he stammers a little and will not be in the same room alone with her but he will be fine.

You do not want to live the first 10 years of my married life where I am working full time and going to school full time to get a BS and then a Masters, how we stayed together was a miracle but we made it and now work our asses off to put our kids through school so they have an easier life.

Im not saying thoes people in the 70's did not work for it but at least the high paying work was there and all the over time you wanted to work (the key thing is the wages were there where as engineering wages are slipping), so all you had to do was be willing and you could bank roll it in. Such is life I guess, im not sure I understand the story about your brother, but if you physically assulted him I have wrote people off in my life for much less so if he still has anything to do with you you are indeed fortunate. Some people dont even have the opprotunity to work there asses off because the work is not there so he has a point just as I do. I have a plan I would not say I have it all figured out and engineer is not just a title its alot of hard work, so if hard work and reputation dont buy respect then respect really has no meaning, engineering titles are not just assigned you have to work for it. Also its impossible to work full time and go to school full time unless your work is extremely flexable because alot of classes are in the middle of the day and you would be virtually ineffective at your day job, unless you are just talking about a serving job or something after school, I am looking into getting a second electrical engineering degree while working a full time professional job and looking at the scheduling im going to be able to take 2 classes at a time at best.

As far as the military I have a hard time imagining a doc being treated like an E-1 basic trainee, I guarentee that statement is false, even if you are an E-8 there rank says that you are not going to raise your voice to them or treat them with disrespect, you may talk behind there backs but thats the extent of it. If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it. If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy, I am guessing the reason is they get alot of there engineering work from contractors and dont need uniformed engineers they just contract out lockheed or boing etc.

Anyways I feel the discussion has digressed and it is what it is, you just have to hope you can stay employed and pay off your debts without going into bankrupcy if you do get laid off.

 

[IlPadrino]

As far as the military I have a hard time imagining a doc being treated like an E-1 basic trainee, I guarentee that statement is false, even if you are an E-8 there rank says that you are not going to raise your voice to them or treat them with disrespect, you may talk behind there backs but thats the extent of it. If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it. If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy, I am guessing the reason is they get alot of there engineering work from contractors and dont need uniformed engineers they just contract out lockheed or boing etc.

I can't tell what you're talking about here! I wrote earlier that a newly commissioned Doc, Dent, or Jag is treated just like a Boot Ensign (that's a new O-1 in the Navy if you're trying to keep score). Only E-1s are treated like E-1s in just about any service.

"If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it." ... huh?

" If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy"... Yup! Direct Commissions are just what they do. But getting someone in and keeping them in are two different things. And just about *all* military jobs are training for future jobs, which means you can't replace the guys leaving with new guys.

 

[rppearso]

I can't tell what you're talking about here! I wrote earlier that a newly commissioned Doc, Dent, or Jag is treated just like a Boot Ensign (that's a new O-1 in the Navy if you're trying to keep score). Only E-1s are treated like E-1s in just about any service.
"If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it." ... huh?

" If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy"... Yup! Direct Commissions are just what they do. But getting someone in and keeping them in are two different things. And just about *all* military jobs are training for future jobs, which means you can't replace the guys leaving with new guys.

I did not finish OCS in the army guard but I can guess an O-1 gets treated alot better than an E-1 and engineers have to go through the entire basic training and OCS path and that path did not work for me. Its really all about the respect and paycheck and how much the engineering degree buys you and with the military it did not seem like much, if your not in demand your not in demand thats life and you move on.

 

[IlPadrino]

I did not finish OCS in the army guard but I can guess an O-1 gets treated alot better than an E-1 and engineers have to go through the entire basic training and OCS path and that path did not work for me. Its really all about the respect and paycheck and how much the engineering degree buys you and with the military it did not seem like much, if your not in demand your not in demand thats life and you move on.

Sure, O-1s get treated "better" than E-1s in terms of responsibility and compensation. Any service member in a military engineering field is going to be generally on par with others in their paygrade - no more and no less. But as I wrote earlier, don't think Docs and Lawyers are any different.

I think I'm starting to understand you now... you thought a BS in some engineering field was going to get you automatic respect and a paycheck. I don't think engineering is much different than any other BS. Even a PE won't get you too much more respect and an increased paycheck (though, to be far, it's certainly a differentiator and can help in both those areas). The tried and true way of getting respect and lots of money is to prove your ability and worth to an organization that values them.

 

[Dexman1349]

I think I'm starting to understand you now... you thought a BS in some engineering field was going to get you automatic respect and a paycheck. I don't think engineering is much different than any other BS. Even a PE won't get you too much more respect and an increased paycheck (though, to be far, it's certainly a differentiator and can help in both those areas). The tried and true way of getting respect and lots of money is to prove your ability and worth to an organization that values them.

+1

I find myself at least once a month needing to explain to others what a PE is. I say I'm an engineer, and their automatic response is, "You must be good at math." Yeah, there's a TON of respect there...

PS: I also went to Mines (Graduated May 2003). As much as you want to think it's a private school, it's not. They are trying to become private, but they are far from being able to run without state assistance. Having a degree from there helps with earning a little more respect, but it's basically limited to those who actually know about the school.

 

[picusld]

Also its impossible to work full time and go to school full time unless your work is extremely flexable because alot of classes are in the middle of the day and you would be virtually ineffective at your day job, unless you are just talking about a serving job or something after school, I am looking into getting a second electrical engineering degree while working a full time professional job and looking at the scheduling im going to be able to take 2 classes at a time at best.

I did just that. For one year I worked in a mental crisis unit caring for individuals with mental dissabilites working 11pm to 7am and went to school full time during the day. The second year 9-11 happened and was activated through the guard to perform homeland defense working 9pm to 5am loading missles on the jets and going to school during the day and sleeping when I could.

My second two years of school I had enough money that I did not need to work and only needed to take out minor loans (compared to a 140K) in order to get by.

Although this schedule is not sustainable, it is possible. It just depends on what you are willing to sacrifice in the near term in order to succeed in the long term. But anything is possible...

 

[MechGuy]

I can't tell what you're talking about here! I wrote earlier that a newly commissioned Doc, Dent, or Jag is treated just like a Boot Ensign (that's a new O-1 in the Navy if you're trying to keep score). Only E-1s are treated like E-1s in just about any service.
"If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it." ... huh?

" If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy"... Yup! Direct Commissions are just what they do. But getting someone in and keeping them in are two different things. And just about *all* military jobs are training for future jobs, which means you can't replace the guys leaving with new guys.

I did not finish OCS in the army guard but I can guess an O-1 gets treated alot better than an E-1 and engineers have to go through the entire basic training and OCS path and that path did not work for me. Its really all about the respect and paycheck and how much the engineering degree buys you and with the military it did not seem like much, if your not in demand your not in demand thats life and you move on.

Lets see....how can I say this without being rude... I'm not sure that I can LOL. I'll leave it at this, and I think IlPadrino and others have already said it. Respect is earned, not given simply because of your degree, rank, or social status. The only way you'll ever learn this is through time and experience. Good luck.

 

[FLBuff PE]

...PS: I also went to Mines (Graduated May 2003). As much as you want to think it's a private school, it's not. They are trying to become private, but they are far from being able to run without state assistance. Having a degree from there helps with earning a little more respect, but it's basically limited to those who actually know about the school.

Great school!

-University of Colorado-Boulder grad, 2001

 

[rppearso]

Also its impossible to work full time and go to school full time unless your work is extremely flexable because alot of classes are in the middle of the day and you would be virtually ineffective at your day job, unless you are just talking about a serving job or something after school, I am looking into getting a second electrical engineering degree while working a full time professional job and looking at the scheduling im going to be able to take 2 classes at a time at best.

I did just that. For one year I worked in a mental crisis unit caring for individuals with mental dissabilites working 11pm to 7am and went to school full time during the day. The second year 9-11 happened and was activated through the guard to perform homeland defense working 9pm to 5am loading missles on the jets and going to school during the day and sleeping when I could.

My second two years of school I had enough money that I did not need to work and only needed to take out minor loans (compared to a 140K) in order to get by.

Although this schedule is not sustainable, it is possible. It just depends on what you are willing to sacrifice in the near term in order to succeed in the long term. But anything is possible...

Its possible if the right set of circumstances line up, otherwise you are going to have to take loans. I am building my time and experience its just not really all its cracked up to be is all, such is life.

 

[Dexman1349]

rppearso,

you don't have to wait for a "perfect series of events" to occur to get what you want. If you really want it, you will find a way. I worked 40hrs/week while going to school full time (see above, I went to the same school as you). Yes I needed a flexible job to pull it off (and it is very difficult if you want to work a 9-5 while in school), but if you really want to do it, it will happen.

 

[Kephart P.E.]

Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.

This is the worst time of year to think of starting an auto repair shop. You'll be living fat in the summer and starving in the winter. Before going back to school I was an auto tech for six years and its full of pitfalls just like engineering or anything else.

If you want to make great money you need to charge 100 hours a week which also means you need to be damned good. Most weeks I could turn in 60-80 but the top guys could do 100. Of course all the money one needs to sink into proprietary tools is sad.

Great post, my Dad and Uncle ran a Auto Repair shop for years. My Dad sold his half and is semi-retired now, but if you think Engineering is tough the mechanic business would eat you alive. Trust me for the amount of hours worked there is no way you would make more $. I worked for my Dad thru High School and in college. Compared to that the US Army and Engineering is cake.

Now you will almost always have work, as a mechanic, but you better enjoy the constantly bashed knuckles, being too hot or cold, and getting covered in grease, dirt, and oil. But hey some people want to do little else than work on cars and I thank them for it.

 

[Kephart P.E.]

Without being too rude, ah screw it.

You paid $140 k to go to a state school and get a Engineering Degree. What did you think they would teach you how to print money?

You dropped out/quit Army Guard, cause they didn't treat you with enough "respect"? Wow, I think we have a little problems with expectations. What part of the Army did you think you were joining?

Geez watch a movie or something, some of the stereotypes are true. THEY (The Military) TREAT YOU LIKE DIRT UNTIL YOU PROVE YOU ARE WORTH SOMETHING. You do this chiefly by not quitting.

Let me guess you are part of the infamous Gen Y.