Are Engineers Expendable

Looking at the job market the way it is, a resession like this should separate thoes in society that are expendable and thoes that are not. It seems that the carrer of engineering is indeed expendable, I definitly dont get the feeling that I am immune from lay offs because I am an engineer and have seen many engineers laid off with 2-3 days notice. You would not see behavior like this with labor unions, maybe engineers need to unionize as im not seeing the medical doctor level of value assigned to engineers, it seems we are only a quarter step up from a general laborer. I feel kind of duped into getting into the field of engineering, it is suppose to be highly respected, high job security, high pay gig but sometimes I feel like I could have done just as well without a 140K education of which I had to pay for half and still have 27K in state loans to pay back. Maybe its just the USA that does not value engineering, I dont know. I would love some feed back because I am really regretting getting into the carrer path and am really thinking about doing something else (law, medical, etc).

rppearso said:

Looking at the job market the way it is, a resession like this should separate thoes in society that are expendable and thoes that are not. It seems that the carrer of engineering is indeed expendable, I definitly dont get the feeling that I am immune from lay offs because I am an engineer and have seen many engineers laid off with 2-3 days notice. You would not see behavior like this with labor unions, maybe engineers need to unionize as im not seeing the medical doctor level of value assigned to engineers, it seems we are only a quarter step up from a general laborer. I feel kind of duped into getting into the field of engineering, it is suppose to be highly respected, high job security, high pay gig but sometimes I feel like I could have done just as well without a 140K education of which I had to pay for half and still have 27K in state loans to pay back. Maybe its just the USA that does not value engineering, I dont know. I would love some feed back because I am really regretting getting into the carrer path and am really thinking about doing something else (law, medical, etc).

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I think your first mistake was paying 140K. You can do it a lot cheaper. Doctors do okay, but lot's of lawyers are out of work too.

Well I had a half ride, but yea I still had 73K in loans and I have 27K in state loans left and 18 in federal but the federal are like 90$ a month (and can be defered for up to 6 months to a year in the event of a lay off where as the state loans they will take you to collections) so thats not bad, but the state loans I need to get paid off ASAP. Yea, I am thinking about going back for a EE degree (much cheaper this time like 500$ a class for 8 classes lol) that way I have some lattitude and maybe even get a second PE (well im still waiting on my chemical PE but im pretty sure I passed). The problem was the degree I was looking for was not offered in my state and I was accepted to the colorado school of mines so I jumped thinking a degree from that school would be an in after I graduated I was unemployed for a year so I kinda got burned and I could have went to a wuei school but thats life, at least our degree is laser etched silver lol, so it looks cool. I guess things could be worse.

benbo said:

I think your first mistake was paying 140K. You can do it a lot cheaper. Doctors do okay, but lot's of lawyers are out of work too.

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Agreed, where on earth did you go or how long did you stay in school to spend 140k?

Are engineers expendable? Yes. If they stop building things you usually don't have much need for engineers. What you want to avoid is being the most expendable. You don't have to out swim the shark, you just can't be the slowest swimmer.

Yes engineers are expendable like everyone else.

Personally the strategy I've used is to do annual inspections to make money during the softer times when design work is low. Ideally I'd like to have many investments including real estate so a dip in the economy won't rock my boat too much.

Engineering can be capricious.

I know it can seem like we are treated pretty bad at times. But for me personally (and I guess it does come down to a personal choice), I can't see myself doing anything else (especially Law; zero interest for me there). I just have too much interest in this and have sunk too much time in it. [Even in my spare time, I find myself reading about our profession.] I know what you mean by our being treated as expendable (as I am unemployed). I have worked for numerous firms and it's safe to say it's rare to find a good, stable, well-run outfit to work for. I think that it the key to enjoying what you do. The key to any good firm is management that understands good people are not expendable and cannot be obtained at will. One place I use to work at had me leading jobs; and they had the mentality that you could just move people around like luggage [i.e. on and off your project like crazy] and somehow everything would turn out ok. Doesn't work that way.

Anyway, like I said: it all boils down to who you are working for (and if they have the good sense to diversify as well). Good luck to you sir.

Thank you for the replys, I think I am just going to keep plugging along, I think the biggest thing that bothers me are thoes student loans because there is no asset to get rid of if I cant pay (like my condo) and fortunatly my truck is paid for and in tip top condition so I have reliable transportation if something happens. I cant wait to get thoes loans paid then I can actually afford to be unemployed, once my condo is paid for it will be even better. I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money. Such is life, I agree engineering is what I enjoy, if I were put in a position where I had to sell my place I would probably take my time going back to work and just chill for a while at my parents, I would not be jumping up and down to get back in the metal wheel. I used to be apart of a great company but they were bought out so now we are basicly going down the drain, the company is a multinational so they could care less about this branch, they will probably keep it as a sales office but thats about it. At least this time I will be looking for a new job with nearly 5 years experience and hopefully a PE so thats alot better than a new grad with a laser etched silver degree lol.

details matter.

when it comes down to it, anyone can be replaced, regardless of proffession. from the fry cook at mcodnalds to the white house.

Agreed, I work in manufacturing in the US. It is clearer than ever that engineers are important to work to improve production, so we will use less labor to create parts - so we can compete with overseas... but, the fact is that engineers are still overhead. When times get tough, easy way to cut costs is to cut overhead.

Everyone can be expendable. There are NO protected jobs. Even doctors with healthcare reform / lack of tort reform / etc. will have to make adjustments and I guarantee that if there is ANY fat left in any area, it will be trimmed.

Like it or not, it will be unbelievably difficult for the next generations. I worry about job outlooks and my kids at this point.

rppearso said:

I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money.

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I am really confused by this statement (not that its hard to confuse me!)

Why do you think people who started their careers in the 70s were in "the gravey train days?" Are you jealous just because they are at a future point in their life and careers than you are?

First of all this is a pretty broad statement, as I know plenty of people who started their careers in the 70s who are in poor financial positions and can't retire anytime soon. You life is what you make it...

Secondly, there's no point of being jealous of someone else, especially someone who is 30-40 years older. You can't even compare your apples to their oranges. Everyone's path through life is different...

ok I'm off the soapbox. Good luck in the future. still baffeled by $140K for an engineering degree.... my degree was from a pretty prestegious school and was 20-30% of that cost... it pays to shop around!

Agree with the other posters.

As far as forming a union, I don't believe that would be the least bit effective. Not in this economy. Look at the formerly powerful unions like UAW; they are mere shells of their former selves AND those people have been shown to not only be expendable but unable to find employment in other fields/sectors.

My feeling is that one must remain positive regardless of chosen profession - this economy is biting ALL of us in the toocus!

JR

I'm no fan of unions either. But sometimes I think we should organize in some official fashion to make our voices heard. Perhaps joining organizations like ASCE is the answer. But here's the thing: I haven't joined them because I rabidly oppose some of their proposals [i.e. "raising the bar' for one; I have an MS (and am a PE) and I think it's a ridiculous idea]. I guess that approach has allowed them to go without hearing alternate view points. We need to speak up more often.

But nothing can replace well run organizations. And I think more of us need to start our own businesses as well.

An engineer speak up? Are you kidding me? Most of us can barely look up from our own shoes. What makes you think we can handle any kind of confrontation?

But I agree with most of the posts above. EVERYONE is expendible. Ironically enough, one of the first pieces of advice I was given once I started my Engineer career was, "Train your replacement. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted."

I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money

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Oh man, I got a chuckle out of this. Make that a belly laugh,

Sure, a lot of people who worked 30 years have their houses paid off, so will you if you play your cards right. But "gravy train?" Economic cycles always happen.

I got my first serious engineering job in 1982 - Hughes Aircraft. Good long run until 1992, but then laid off when aerospace took a dump. I was lucky to last that long. It took me 6 months and 50 interviews to find a job. It was terrifying. I basically had to beg for that job in semiconductors.

Worked 7 years at that and then the high tech bubble burst. Panic time again.

Now I work for the California government. I'll have seven years in next year. Now, I know California is in bad shape and I know something has to and is going to be done about it. There are already furloughs, although I've dodged them. But now Meg Whitman is running for governor and threatening to lay off 40,000 workers. I'm conservative, and maybe that has to be done. Doesn't mean I'm not scared and doesn't mean I want to be looking for a job at 55 years. I could probably retire, but it would be tight. Plus I like working.

So, even if you work a long time doesn't mean you've always had it made.

Sorry I was vauge, I am refering to the alaska oil pipeline and they really were gravy train days. Also people in thoes days would work with arco for 10-15 years with a massive severance package thats more than enough time to pay off loans and be sitting fairly comfortable when you go to look for a new job, you might have to cut some of your beer money down but they certianly were not facing bankrupcy. I barely got enough time in to get my PE and when/if I am cut I will still have tons of loans and may have to declair bankrupcy if I have to forclose on my condo if I cant sell it for at least what I owe on it. I probably paid to much for my education but such is life, I had half of it paid for so it cost me 70K, I thought a degree from colorado school of mines would give me a MUCH better chance getting my foot in the door and would advance me faster, that was party true but not 70K true lol, I thought the PE would be a huge credibility booster and really its a "feather in your cap" not a jet pack, so I have been over estimating things as soon as I finished high school. I guess I am just venting, my GF and I are talking about getting married and over seas is not out of the question, and the over seas positions that bring in the benjamins are not the safest. People keep saying there is going to be a huge shortage of engineers as soon as the older engineers retire but because of the financial situation they are still working up into there 80's so I dont think that is going to transpire until im like 40. To much supply to little demand.

Dexman1349 said:

An engineer speak up? Are you kidding me? Most of us can barely look up from our own shoes. What makes you think we can handle any kind of confrontation?

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In all seriousness: I think that's part of the problem. We just have this character trait where we are afraid to speak out/up. In other professions, there would be a near riot over what some of these organizations [that profess to represent us] have proposed. But engineers? Sheep. And if history has taught us anything: sheep get slaughtered. I remember how co-workers reacted to me when I had a letter appear in a trade magazine some years ago discussing an ASCE proposal (basically denouncing their "raise the bar" stance)......and the way my co-workers reacted you would have thought a mob Don had put out a contract on me. (Even people who agreed with me.) I mean, come on people: what's with the fear? Grow a pair.

RM-270 said:

In all seriousness: I think that's part of the problem. We just have this character trait where we are afraid to speak out/up. In other professions, there would be a near riot over what some of these organizations [that profess to represent us] have proposed. But engineers? Sheep. And if history has taught us anything: sheep get slaughtered. I remember how co-workers reacted to me when I had a letter appear in a trade magazine some years ago discussing an ASCE proposal (basically denouncing their "raise the bar" stance)......and the way my co-workers reacted you would have thought a mob Don had put out a contract on me. (Even people who agreed with me.) I mean, come on people: what's with the fear? Grow a pair.

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You know, this is another reason I think office engineers should have to spend some time in the field.

When I was in the Houston office, the attitude was verbatim what you've described with 99% of the engineers. Here on the job site, it's the complete opposite. I think part of it is due to the fact that most of the engineers here have practiced their respective craft prior to becoming an engineer, but more often than not, if the craft/foremen see an engineer coming their direction, a prompt "oh shit" typically emanates from that area. The attitude is the complete opposite.

TouchDown said:

... but, the fact is that engineers are still overhead. When times get tough, easy way to cut costs is to cut overhead.

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Yeah, I learned that the hard way. It was difficult at first not to take it personally, but it is just business. Since I wasn't sales, I wasn't pushing product and bringing in money.

Like it or not, it will be unbelievably difficult for the next generations. I worry about job outlooks and my kids at this point.

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My Dad once told me during the 91 recession that if he knew then what he knew now, he'd have advised me to go into plumbing, HVAC or auto repair. Recessionproof industries that pay fairly well. Probably good advice if they like working with their hands.

One of the reasons I'm in the power industry is that the defense industry wasn't hiring when I graduated in the Spring of 1990. My logic in accepting the job offer from the utility was that regardless of economic circumstances, people will always want their lights to work.