Where are my doves?

[StructuralPoke]

So I finally got to sign my first set of plans yesterday. Nobody released any doves, no marching bands came by, just some strange virgin-type jokes coming from some of the old guys. I guess it is like having a birthday -- you don't feel any different afterward and nothing has changed. Someone asked what it feels like to be all responsible now. I said, no different than before -- I guess I'd feel responsible if something went wrong!

I know similar things have been covered in other threads, but I wanted to post about it again. I passed the October 07 test and (as I said) all responsible now. I didn't get a raise for passing. No big deal, I had already asked about it and I was told that there was no pass=raise policy here. That's fine, I accept that.

Well, I was a little nosy a couple of months ago looking for a file on the nightly backup and found everyone's gross salaries. I know, I know -- don't snoop because I probably won't like what I see. Well too late. There are some EIs that I have a couple of years experience on that make more than I do. It irks me really badly. They have masters while I only have a bachelors, but still, I've got experience and an extra piece of paper hanging on my wall. I think part of what started this was the starting salaries. I was out of work for a couple of month (story posted here if you care enough to read) and was desperate for work when hired and the EIs were coming out of school into an engineer shortage. I was a cheap commodity while they were more expensive.

To top all this off, our home budget has been in the red for a couple of months. I could post a tale of woe, but it wouldn't bring anything to the discussion. We have savings that we've been milking and no debt other than our mortgage. And we aren't even that far into the red. I determined that if I brought home an extra $100 each paycheck (2x a month) it would get us breaking even. With taxes and everything else, that'd be asking for a $300/month raise = $3600 a year isn't much! Well, it was important to us the my wife stay home with our child, but the same week I decided that I'd sack up and ask for a raise, she got an offer to go back part time (mostly from home) to her previous job in a different (read: less demanding) position. It's something she would want to do and she really could use the adult interaction, but DAMMIT! That throws my whole reasoning for asking for a raise out the window. "A couple hundred bucks would allow my wife to stay at home" is a much stronger argument than "Pleeeeeeeease!"

I don't want to switch jobs or anything -- I love where I'm at. It just doesn't feel like my PE is worth anything to my company. Anyone have any good words or anything?

------ well, that was quite a rant for someone who mainly lurks around and posts funny pictures!

 

[TouchDown]

Geez. That's a tough situation.

Knowing everyone else's salary doesn't help you feel any better and it probably screwing with your head... If your wife is considering going back to work, I don't know if I'd use that as leverage for her to stay home... In fact, in business sense, your boss doesn't care if your wife stays home or not. They pay you for work you do for them. If you've got more experience, and PE, and have been doing a good job, I don't see any reason why you can't ask them for an increase.

I would definitely talk in percentages, and not hundreds of dollars... Even a 2-3% raise has to be more than $300 a month and would be something they shouldn't blush at.

Annual increases for good performance I think should run between 3 and 7% anyway. Not sure if you're up for an annual increase, but asking for a meager raise if you haven't had an increase in a while shouldn't come off as any surprise to them.

Good luck!

 

[Casey]

I am not sure what the market is like where you are....

When I got my P.Eng. I talked with the chief and said I should expect some sort of raise because my level of responsibility has increased, (plus a few other complaints)... And I eventually got a pretty big raise.

If I am putting my ass on the line when I sign drawings I sure as hell better be paid well for it. An EIT doesn't have to worry about responsibility at the end of the day and their pay usually reflects that.

I think that reason alone is good enough for you to ask for a raise.

 

[ODB_PE]

I feel your pain brother, and my story has also been documented on these boards. I too have stumbled on the salary of the new guy with the Masters (when mine wasn't done yet) that was higher than mine although I had 2 years experience at that point (compared to none)

I think it is well discussed and documented that your starting salary is the key. I've also got thoughts that you will never fully escape your status of when you arrived (e.g. when I stared I had a BS with no experience - now I also have an MS and a PE but don't feel the level of treatment by the boss is commensurate with my acheived level)

After finishing my MS a year ago, I asked for a raise. I try and avoid the sob story too, using the simple " my salary isn't getting the job done" at that point I basically asked for a $9K raise. He told me that I would get it if I passed my exam. He did and you would think, "well, that's great" but of course I was still riding on too low of a salary for 7 months waiting for results and I frequently got mad as hell while studying which really added to the stress. What else happened in that time period? well of course gas kept going up and my health care premium kept going up. So 3 months after that 9K raise I told him again "it's just not getting the job done" and 6 weeks later he bumped me up another $5K

So now my family budget is potentially at break even althoguh we are still playing catch-up. Meanwhile I have heard countless tales of MSes with no experience getting ore than I am making right now, and head hunters are still calling. At least my new elevated salary has pushed me to even in the pro/con of my current job debate.

So, back to you. You gotta be the squeaky wheel. I typically have not been that guy, and I have dreaded the talk for the weeks until the timing felt right to have it - but you have to do it. They have to know you're not happy or of course they will pay you as little as they can. I used to take that personally, but it is just business. Also, you have to be prepared for the fact that you may have to leave - but at least if you have to put your needs out on the table and then if they are not met than you should have no bad feelings or hesitations about leaving.

Another thought - I have not sealed any drawings yet. It is my understanding that (at least in Texas) you need to be a principal of the company to commit company resources by sealing a design document. If you are providing this level of personal liability without adequate compensation you need to address this.

Typically I had my talks on friday afternoon - you've got one today, and end of the month, too. Go for it!

 

[maryannette]

^^I agree with what TD said. You have to use the argument of the value you provide for the company. Don't be shy, either. Say that you think you deserve a XX% increase for the value you add. The only thing I would add is that in similar situations I always had to find another employer willing to pay better.

I agree with ODB, too. And today IS Friday. Take a deep breath. Get your thoughts together. Go for it.

 

[StructuralPoke]

Today is a Friday, but unfortunately, the bosses are out of the office. The company has been pretty good about doling out cost-of-living raises once a year, but (I assume) everyone low on the totem pole gets x% so I'd still know in the back of my head that the EIs make more than me. The MO about whenever $ has been brought up (initial interview and one performance review) is that "we believe that we compensate everyone fairly," and I agree with that to some extent. And I don't know if I would feel like I deserve more $ if I hadn't stumbled onto the salaries. But, I have and that isn't something that I can undo.

I agree that the business doesn't care whether or not my wife can stay home, but we're a small enough company that the bosses (on a personal) actually might.

I've given some thought as to how I would do the actual asking. I don't think I could just go in and say "May I have..." -- I think the way to go about it is to say "What could I do to earn an extra x%". I think that shows a willingness on my part do more*** than to just ask. But doing more is a two edged sword for me -- with my almost-one-year-old at home, I want to be home to see him grow, not spend more time here working. Work harder might be the words I'm looking for, but arrgh, this is frustrating. It's not like I surf the net all day every day like some in our office (today is the exception, I'm still basking in the glow of getting to use my PE-ness for the first time).

*** I say "do more" because what is expected of me really hasn't changed since I got my PE. On this last project, pretty much the only thing I did different was sign my name at the end.

 

[Casey]

*** I say "do more" because what is expected of me really hasn't changed since I got my PE. On this last project, pretty much the only thing I did different was sign my name at the end.

But you just did a whole lot more by signing your name... The act itself is not that significant, but responsibility-wise it is significant. You (and the company) are now on the hook should something go wrong with that design.

Plus you saved them the time of having another PE look over the design calculations and drawings had he/she needed to stamp the drawings instead of you...

Your PE-ness is a big thing (some are bigger than others) and you should have been rewarded/compensated for your achievement and the added value you bring to the company.

Don't sell yourself short.

 

[udpolo15]

Today is a Friday, but unfortunately, the bosses are out of the office. The company has been pretty good about doling out cost-of-living raises once a year, but (I assume) everyone low on the totem pole gets x% so I'd still know in the back of my head that the EIs make more than me. The MO about whenever $ has been brought up (initial interview and one performance review) is that "we believe that we compensate everyone fairly," and I agree with that to some extent. And I don't know if I would feel like I deserve more $ if I hadn't stumbled onto the salaries. But, I have and that isn't something that I can undo.
I agree that the business doesn't care whether or not my wife can stay home, but we're a small enough company that the bosses (on a personal) actually might.

I've given some thought as to how I would do the actual asking. I don't think I could just go in and say "May I have..." -- I think the way to go about it is to say "What could I do to earn an extra x%". I think that shows a willingness on my part do more*** than to just ask. But doing more is a two edged sword for me -- with my almost-one-year-old at home, I want to be home to see him grow, not spend more time here working. Work harder might be the words I'm looking for, but arrgh, this is frustrating. It's not like I surf the net all day every day like some in our office (today is the exception, I'm still basking in the glow of getting to use my PE-ness for the first time).

*** I say "do more" because what is expected of me really hasn't changed since I got my PE. On this last project, pretty much the only thing I did different was sign my name at the end.

I would stay away from the playing the sob story. I would straight out out say that you bring more value to the company than your salary reflects. are you in consulting? if so what is your NM. have you done research on average salaries in your field? make sure you're prepared. have documentation ready that show why you are underpaid.

 

[kevo_55]

Two words: start looking.

Having EIT's getting paid more than a PE is flat out wrong. Even if they have a masters it's wrong.

Now, if they have a PhD I could see them getting paid more than a PE with maybe 5-6 years of exp.

 

[Casey]

I'm just curious...

The file you found with the salaries, can that be found by anyone in the company? Most places keep those things under lock and key and only authorised personnel are allowed access...

But if someone like you can stumble upon it, then the company is a bunch of retards and are just looking for trouble.

 

[ODB_PE]

I agree that the business doesn't care whether or not my wife can stay home, but we're a small enough company that the bosses (on a personal) actually might.

While not going full-on sob story, you can use this as leverage. If you state that your salary is not cutting it to the point where your wife has to go back to work, that will significantly affect your ability to do your job. You will be limited for any travel and will have to share the load of staying home with sick kids. That is a good card to play while not being specifically sob story. I think the line I used was "It is my top priority to ensure that Ms. ODB can continue to stay at home "

 

[ODB_PE]

Your PE-ness is a big thing (some are bigger than others) and you should have been rewarded/compensated for your achievement and the added value you bring to the company.

Agreed. Are you being marketed? With my PE-ness my resume is now attached to every SOQ, proposal, etc. That is another big indication of your added value to the company.

 

[StructuralPoke]

I'm just curious...
The file you found with the salaries, can that be found by anyone in the company? Most places keep those things under lock and key and only authorised personnel are allowed access...

But if someone like you can stumble upon it, then the company is a bunch of retards and are just looking for trouble.

well, it's not under lock and key, but very few know how to get to the backups on the server. And (probably even more likely) nobody is as nosy as I am.

 

[StructuralPoke]

Agreed. Are you being marketed? With my PE-ness my resume is now attached to every SOQ, proposal, etc. That is another big indication of your added value to the company.

No -- I'm still "under" other PEs that have connections with the architects. "Under" as in, the initial contact starts with the older PE and he is involved in the project at an arm's length...

 

[chaosiscash]

I fully agree that you should get an increase with the added responsibility. However, don't be mad that the guys "below" you make more money. Use it as a lesson. The bottom line is, when it comes to salary, PE, masters, what school you went to, GPA, your level of responsiblity, etc, doesn't really mean a whole lot. You are worth whatever you negotiate. No more, no less. They are going to hire you for the minimum they can.

You mentioned that you took the job when you were out of work an needed one. Fair enough, you did what you had to do to support your family. Now, however, when you have a job, is the time to start looking again. And this time, you don't have to sell yourself short. I don't know how the market is in your location, but around here they need us a lot more than we need them. You'll rarely get as large of an increase from your current company as you will if you change jobs.