Those Crazy Confederates are still costing the US!

[Capt Worley PE]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/05/05/civil-war-shipwreck-creates-hurdle-for-government-653m-plan/#ixzz1u15Nqoek

Before government engineers can deepen one of the nation's busiest seaports to accommodate future trade, they first need to remove a $14 million obstacle from the past -- a Confederate warship rotting on the Savannah River bottom for nearly 150 years.
Confederate troops scuttled the ironclad CSS Georgia to prevent its capture by Gen. William T. Sherman when his Union troops took Savannah in December 1864. It's been on the river bottom ever since.

Now, the Civil War shipwreck sits in the way of a government agency's $653 million plan to deepen the waterway that links the nation's fourth-busiest container port to the Atlantic Ocean. The ship's remains are considered so historically significant that dredging the river is prohibited within 50 feet of the wreckage.

So the Army Corps of Engineers plans to raise and preserve what's left of the CSS Georgia. The agency's final report on the project last month estimated the cost to taxpayers at $14 million. The work could start next year on what's sure to be a painstaking effort.

And leaving the shipwreck in place is not an option: Officials say the harbor must be deepened to accommodate supersize cargo ships coming through an expanded Panama Canal in 2014 -- ships that will bring valuable revenue to the state and would otherwise go to other ports.

Underwater surveys show two large chunks of the ship's iron-armored siding have survived, the largest being 68 feet long and 24 feet tall. Raising them intact will be a priority. Researchers also spotted three cannons on the riverbed, an intact propeller and other pieces of the warship's steam engines. And there's smaller debris scattered across the site that could yield unexpected treasures, requiring careful sifting beneath 40 feet of water.

"We don't really have an idea of what's in the debris field," said Julie Morgan, a government archaeologist with the Army Corps. "There could be some personal items. People left the ship in a big hurry. Who's to say what was on board when the Georgia went down."

Also likely to slow the job: finding and gently removing cannonballs and other explosive projectiles that, according to Army Corps experts, could still potentially detonate.

That's a massive effort for a warship that went down in Civil War history as an ironclad flop.

The Civil War ushered in the era of armored warships. In Savannah, a Ladies Gunboat Association raised $115,000 to build such a ship to protect the city. The 120-foot-long CSS Georgia had armor forged from railroad iron, but its engines proved too weak to propel the ship's 1,200-ton frame against river currents. The ship was anchored on the riverside at Fort Jackson as a floating gun battery.

Ultimately the Georgia was scuttled by its own crew without having ever fired a shot in combat.

"I would say it was an utter failure," said Ken Johnston, executive director of the National Civil War Naval Museum in Columbus, Ga., who says the shipwreck nonetheless has great historical value. "It has very clearly become a symbol for why things went wrong for the Confederate naval effort."

As a homespun war machine assembled by workers who likely had never built a ship before, the CSS Georgia represents the South's lack of an industrial base, Johnston said. The North, by contrast, was teeming with both factories and laborers skilled at shipbuilding. They churned out a superior naval fleet that enabled the Union to successfully cut off waterways used to supply Confederate forces.

Despite its functional failures, the shipwreck's historical significance was cemented in 1987 when it won a place on the National Register of Historic Places, the official listing of treasured sites and buildings from America's past. That gave the Georgia a measure of protection -- dredging near the shipwreck was prohibited.

Still, a great deal of damage had already been done. The last detailed survey of the ship in 2003 found it in pieces and its hull apparently disintegrated. Erosion had taken a large toll, and telltale marks showed dredging machinery had already chewed into the wreckage.

Salvaging the remains will likely move slowly.

Divers will need to divide the site into a grid to search for artifacts and record the locations of what they find. The large sections or armored siding will likely need to be cradled gently by a web of metal beams to raise them to the surface intact, said Gordon Watts, an underwater archaeologist who helped lead the 2003 survey of the shipwreck.

The Army Corps' report also notes special care will be needed find and dispose of any cannonballs and other explosive projectiles remaining on the riverbed.

"If there is black powder that's 150 years old, and if it is dry, then the stability of it has deteriorated," Watts said. "You'd want to be as careful as humanly possible in recovering the stuff."

Once the remains of the Georgia are removed from the river and preserved by experts, the Army Corps will have to decide who gets the spoils. Morgan said ultimately the plan is to put the warship's artifacts on public display. But which museum or agency will get custody of them has yet to be determined.

Right now the Confederate shipwreck legally belongs to the U.S. Navy. More than 150 years after the Civil War began, the CSS Georgia is still officially classified as a captured enemy vessel.

 

[Chucktown PE]

Thread Hijacking Alert:

The Savannah river deepening will go down as a gigantic boondoggle. They want to deepen the shipping channel but the COE will only allow them to deepen it to 47 feet, which isn't deep enough to get a super post panamax container vessel through the channel.

They could deepen the Charleston Harbor channel to 50 feet at half the price, but that would make too much sense, and take away from Savannah's port business.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

The government engaging in a boondoggle? Surely you jest!

 

[Road Guy]

weird and kind of cool all at the same time!

However I think this is another good example of the NEPA process costing taxpayers $14 million dollars that we shouldnt have to pay, whats the harm in just plowing through this unmaned sunked ship? If it had bodies in it I could "maybe" see a significance, but this is just typical of the "process" delaying and costing more revenue...

 

[Capt Worley PE]

I'm with you, RG. It was an insignificant ship that never fired a shot in anger, plus it has been rotting away for about 150 years. Just run the dredge through it and go on about life.

 

[MA_PE]

weird and kind of cool all at the same time!

However I think this is another good example of the NEPA process costing taxpayers $14 million dollars that we shouldnt have to pay, whats the harm in just plowing through this unmaned sunked ship? If it had bodies in it I could "maybe" see a significance, but this is just typical of the "process" delaying and costing more revenue...

not necessarily. This is a process to salavage something historical as opposed to just throwing it into a landfill. I'll admit I can't define the difference between art, historical significance and just plain old junk, butI can see how some people have an interest in preserving artifacts from the past.

 

[engineergurl]

not the NEPA process... regardless of what kind of Environmental analysis was completed, this would have been an issue because someone applied to get it listed on the historic places list back in the 80's, that is usually done because the locals want to preserve something... just saying...

 

[Wolverine]

It seems to me that the problem of unstable munitions located near a poorly located large piece of metal junk is a problem that could conceivably solve itself.

Adam & Jamie?

 

[Road Guy]

then the locals should pay for it to be "restored".....I would imagine if you go to the Chatham County Board of Commissioners and asked them to either come up with $14 Million or lose it they wouldnt be so fond of it...

 

[engineergurl]

Doing a little digging further, found a really interesting report from about 5 years ago... but I'm trying to find out who got it listed back in the 80's...

 

[engineergurl]

I am now reminded of why I have the job I have. Additional information that I found is as follows...

In 1868 there was a contract to have this removed, and in 1872 calculating in the return on what was salvaged the cost would have been about $10,000. There is a large gap in the history of addressing the wreck, but then in 1968 it was rediscovered buried under 12-16 feet of silt during a dredging operation, it is suspect that this operation caused the inital damage to the wreck.

1979, Texas A&M conducted the first Archology research on the site, and then in 1983 when additional work was being conducted on the channel (again suspect to having damaged the wreck further) a Design Memorandum was issued. At that point in time coffer dams were a feasible solution to conduct further research and possible removal. References show that the site was listed as eligible but was NOT officially a historic site.

It gets hazy here, but apparently right around that time the Georgia Battlefields Association and the Civil War Preservation Trust (and I say this only based on what I could find in under an hour and only on the internet) backed the nomination, which leads us to where we are today. The site being on the registar of historic places.

Additionally, I want to point out that the article really did not represent the facts as they are. First, the term disinigrated is slightly misleading as there are several intact portions of the ship still underwater. The research conducted in 2003 clearly shows this and that corresponds with previous reports. Second, the majority of the cost associated with this project, really and honestly would not have to do with dealing with the task at hand, but dealing with any UXO's. Those are pains in the ***, scary and I only deal with the ones made with modern technology. I imagine they would be an issue during a dredging operation anyway as munitions tend to just be an issue in general.

In all reality, since the Navy wanted to claim that as a captured ship way back when (even though the south sunk it so it didn't get captured), I don't see why it isn't the Navy's problem... just saying.... to the victor goes the spoils?

EDIT: and by the way, had Henry Welles blown it up back in 1868/1872 like the contract was for, this would be a mute point.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

What I want to know is how the gunpowder/UXOs could possible be "dry" as described in the article. They say that the wood parts have "disintegrated," and I assume that the powder barrels were wood. Is there any way they could have been sealed in such a way that they would survive 150 years under water?

 

[engineergurl]

If you read the actual arch report from the 2003 investigation, much of the wood was preserved because it was buried, also the area is brine. And the technology back than was not that archic, not all the gun powder was stored in wooden barrels.

I am really not trying to be a brat, I bring logic to the environmental end of things, so I'm just trying to bring it to the engineering end of it....

 

[Road Guy]

Actually this is the fault of the imperialistic North, the Southern States freely entered into a Union, and they should have been allowed to freely exit it. so had the north not needed to eat and continue the unfair taxation of the South, and thus fired on Fort Sumter, then this war would not have been needed, and this ship would not have ever existed..

I just dont think anyone thinks this is worth $14 Million dollars to sit in a museum somewhere...Environmental Documents should require a B/C Analysis!

 

[mudpuppy]

What's a B/C analysis? Birth Control? I think they could use some of that down there.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Additionally, I want to point out that the article really did not represent the facts as they are.

Are you truly shocked at this?

BTW, thanks for the research. Interesting.

EDIT: and by the way, had Henry Welles blown it up back in 1868/1872 like the contract was for, this would be a mute point.

It wouldn't necessarily be silent, but it would be moot.

 

[Chucktown PE]

Actually this is the fault of the imperialistic North, the Southern States freely entered into a Union, and they should have been allowed to freely exit it. so had the north not needed to eat and continue the unfair taxation of the South, and thus fired on Fort Sumter, then this war would not have been needed, and this ship would not have ever existed..

I just dont think anyone thinks this is worth $14 Million dollars to sit in a museum somewhere...Environmental Documents should require a B/C Analysis!

For the record, we fired on those Yankees out at Fort Sumter first.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Actually this is the fault of the imperialistic North, the Southern States freely entered into a Union, and they should have been allowed to freely exit it. so had the north not needed to eat and continue the unfair taxation of the South, and thus fired on Fort Sumter, then this war would not have been needed, and this ship would not have ever existed..

I just dont think anyone thinks this is worth $14 Million dollars to sit in a museum somewhere...Environmental Documents should require a B/C Analysis!

For the record, we fired on those Yankees out at Fort Sumter first.

Those Citadel guys screw everything up...

 

[engineergurl]

What's a B/C analysis? Birth Control? I think they could use some of that down there.

Benefit/cost analysis.... all though knowing his feelings about NEPA, he could mean bull crap

 

[Wolverine]

Actually this is the fault of the imperialistic North, the Southern States freely entered into a Union, and they should have been allowed to freely exit it. so had the north not needed to eat and continue the unfair taxation of the South, and thus fired on Fort Sumter, then this war would not have been needed, and this ship would not have ever existed..

I just dont think anyone thinks this is worth $14 Million dollars to sit in a museum somewhere...Environmental Documents should require a B/C Analysis!

For the record, we fired on those Yankees out at Fort Sumter first.

Yep, but they was askin' fer it.