Passed over again........

[DanHalen]

This website has been an incredibly valuable resource and have always gotten something worthwhile when using it. I'm looking for "what would you do in this situation" type advice. I've been working for a municipality for over 5 years and just recently sat for my PE exam. Through the years I've applied for Project Manager positions and have been turned down every time. I've never had an issue with it because it's always been someone who was more qualified than myself so that's fair. What about a 23 year old kid with a chip on his shoulder with barely a year of experience getting promoted over a somewhat seasoned veteran? The only thing he has is his bachelors degree and needs to take the FE exam (he hasn't sit for it yet). The job desciption plainly stated that one must have a minimum of 5 years of experience + EI (required) + PE (preferred). Before I went back to school I was in the Navy and after getting out worked as a wastewater treatment plant operator. I got licensed as a WWTP operator and meet a few engineers just like the kid that just beat me on the promotion. They were arrogant pricks and put a lot of peoples safety at risk with their arrogance, ignorance, and stupidity. I knew I was smarter than they were and decided to pursue that coveted degree. I never once thought it was possible to be passed over by someone who was much less experienced and had less qualifications until now. I found out through reliable resources the kid has an inside connection with the head of the organization. Turns out this kids father-in-law is very close friends with our head manager. Here are my options: 1) File a grievance 2) Look for another job 3) Keep my mouth shut and pretend this never happened. What would you do and why? Thanks for the feedback ahead of time.

 

[bradlelf]

Wow that does sound a little shady; here are my thoughts.

1. If you file a grievance you might as well do number two at the same time. You will most likely have a stigma at the work place once you file the grievance. No. 3 is not really an option either since I am sure you are going to remember this as long as you work at the company.

My recommendation would be to try No. 3 while you are completing a No. 2 (Joke intended to add a little humor to the situation).

You might file grievance once you are already on your way out if you want to be spiteful.

 

[DanHalen]

I forgot to mention that when he was hired he was brought in making $4k/yr more than the rest of us peasants. My supervisor nearly hit the roof when he found out. At least my boss tried to get me more money but was promptly rejected by our worthless HR people. Even my supervisor isn't immune to this and he is at the bottom of the barrel in terms of pay. Last fall our Dept. hired a new PM and started that guy out more than $10k/yr more than my boss. Needless to say we aren't happy campers. Despite how negative my place of employment sounds it's actually not been a bad place to work. There has always been a huge disparity in salaries. It's not uncommon to see a difference of $20k/yr difference in salary between two PM's that have the same credentials, same job title, and about the same experience. We lose good people all the time to better paying surrounding municipalities and we're left with some of the laziest people I know. My goal was to get some good experience and hopefully move up.

Right after I got back from taking the PE exam my boss told me about the PM position and told me to apply for it and that he was going to go talk to the hiring manager. I know he tried and gave me a solid review but it just didn't work out. What makes this a little more painful is that I have helped the hiring manager on a few projects in the past and have a lot of respect for him. However, after seeing this I feel like Marcellus Wallace on Pulp Fiction when he tells Butch, "there is no more me and you..." In a nutshell I've lost all respect for the hiring manager but maybe over time that will change. Until then I think I'll go take a #2 while I contemplate on doing options 2 & 3....lol.

 

[YMZ PE]

If I were in your position, I'd move on. Situations similar to yours have happened at almost every place I've worked, so I moved on until I found a place that put me in the most favorable position possible.

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like filing a grievance over this particular sort of thing is the administrative equivalent of taking a dump in public as a sign of protest. Unless you truly believe it's going to change the system, it will do little more than make you feel better, and you risk losing other people's respect and trust in you. Again, this is just my humble opinion, but I think it's better to keep your hands clean and work on improving your own situation.

 

[Peele1]

#1 depends on the size of the organization and their rules. Some places are essentially run by the grievance process, in others, it would be a silent career killer.

Decision path make a flow chart - First question is - stir the hornets nest or not... if yes, then talk to an attorney one who has HR issues as a specialty. Suggest several things to them, as well as talking to local media (probably a local free newspaper would take the story).

Maybe you can find a different job at the same muni?

 

[snickerd3]

I agree with everyone #1 depends on the environment. are you guys union? that would help your case at least make the greviance process easier, but every situation is different

#2 is probably your best choice unless you wouldn't mind working for the guy that you passed over for. If you do #3 while #2 you can still be gainfully employeed while looking for something that will give you the best opportunities.

 

[leo]

best way to solve this problem is to have your own business, 2) most jobs are all the same, 3) you will never be happy 1) will not change anything. Best advice get your PE, plan to work for 5-10 years while merging in your own business

 

[DanHalen]

One of my colleagues has been here a long time and told me about this one attorney in town that has bascially raped the city every time he goes to court with them. I guess if I were to hire an attorney it would be him but I don't think it's worth it and nothing of any value would come from it. I agree that the grieveance process is a silent career killer and several people I've worked with have done it. There is one guy I work with who is in his 50's and has his PE license that's been passed over way more than me. He filed a grievance against our division manager earlier this year. Our division manager is holding a grudge against him and it's fairly well known. So far the guy is still hanging around but my guess is that when he submitted the grieveance it was like the kiss of death in terms of his career. Unless our management gets a long overdue enema I don't think much will change. The local media hates us so they would probably eat this story up. I don't want to be in the spotlight so that option is out. The bad thing is that the economy is still pretty bad and it's tough to find another job. Time to dust off my resume and cover letter and start looking around.

 

[snickerd3]

If it makes you feel better here is a passed over story from when I was looking for a job my senior year in college.

The company was only looking at soon to be grads from our department. They had a relationship with the college. They went through the entire charade of the interviews with all of those interested when they knew they were going to be giving the job to the kid of a friend of the company big whig. The guy that got the job, by the departments own rules, should have been kicked out for failing the year before. We all knew he was failing and when they announced he got the job he bragged about it. didn't earn him any fans the rest of semester.

 

[DanHalen]

I'm sorry to hear about your missed opportunity snickerd3. I wouldn't say that your story makes me feel better but I can relate. People like my hiring manager and the big whigs at company X are the kind of people I don't want to work for. Problem is they're everywhere! The guy that hired me looked strictly at my credentials and work experience. There were no political favors or none of that nonsense so at least I got to where I am based on my own merits. He has always tried to give me the maximum raise to get me where I should be since my starting salary was close to the bottom of the barrel. My position was reclassified a few years back and was given an 8% increase in salary. I have yet to see a penny of that but all the new people who are being hired are getting a much better starting salary. We've been in a hiring and raise freeze for four years until recently due to the bad economy. There was about five or six of us that started about the same time and we're all pretty close in salary. Our local newspaper publishes everyones salary every year so that's a way for us to keep a check on some of our peers.

For right now I'm hoping to get good news from NCEES any day and plan to pursue my LEED certification this summer. After that I plan on shopping around and see what else is out there. I like what I do and most of the people I work with, but I can't continue working at the same rate of pay. I don't expect to make millions but it would be nice to be paid what I'm worth.

 

[solomonb]

DanHulen-- Ok, let's go slow and review this whole matter. I have been a hiring manager and senior Executive for many, many years in both government and industry. Earlier in my career, I was a direct line hiring manager, I have been a 3rd or 4th level senior executive for the past 30 years. Same experience as being in the "C" suite..

A. Take a look at what you have. Have you gotten all out of this job that you can? More schooling, education, training? If yes, then perhaps, you need to move. If no, then try and get all that you can get--more schooling, credentialing, etc. There are ways to make up for the lack of salary equivalency-- think about it and go for it.

B. Filing a grievance. This approach works if and only if (iff) you have a real grievance. Iff you have a real grievance, then go for it. The fact pattern that you describe here suggests to me that you do NOT have a real grievance-- this is an emotional play versus a rational play. Sure, the paper will play it up, you will get publicity, but at the end of the day, if you fail to get satisfaction, you become "damaged goods" and nobody will be interested in hiring you. I did not say it was fair, equitable or just, I am just saying what the real world facts are. The attorney will get paid no matter what, what you get may not be worth much-- something to consider. It is worth talking with an attorney to see what he/she thinks about your particular matter. What you have told us suggests to me that you will not have any fun in the process. The legal process becomes very, very, very tough early on. If your "city raping attorney" is good, he can identify the key elements in your case. You may very well have a great case and should file for grievance-- understanding that you may become damaged goods in the process. If you are 35 years old, this is a different matter than if you are 65 years old.

C. Getting your PE is the way to go. Hopefully, you passed the examination.

D. You only make more money if you change jobs. Yes, they will bring in new employees with higher salaries than what you are making-- if you want to make more, then move on. Again, did not say it was fair, just how the system works. If you have been with the firm for XX years, you are making YY dollars. A new employee will make ZZ dollars because that is what the market bears. Folks that make great money move every 3-6 years. For many folks, that is unpalatible. For others, just the cost of doing business. Something to think about.

E. If you have a reputation as a trouble maker, i.e, grievances, unable to be a team player, whining, etc, it will be tough to find a job in your local locale. Now, you may wish to move from NJ to California, however, most folks don't want to do that. If you do move and are "unable to fit", then you moved and got the boot during the probationary period--you are worse off then staying where you are and sucking up.

F. There are no easy answers to the question. Hopefully, this dialogue has been illuminating.

 

[ArchimedesPie]

Get another job, hands down! You do not need to work in an environment like that, you'll never be satisfied. Stand up for yourself by moving on...

 

[rktman]

Life & careers are a game of ladders. Sometimes you find yourself at the top when you thought it was much higher. Sometime you have to move down to switch to a ladder that goes much higher.

 

[DanHalen]

Thanks to everyone for your input. Right down I'm doubling down on my efforts to get that PE and then I will move on. Between now and the time I leave I will keep a low profile and my mouth shut.

ArchimedesPie, most of my friends are saying the exact same thing and I believe that's probably the best plan.