Parents, don't let your kids grow up to be engineers!

[Exception Collection]

This IS how I'm treated at work. I've had more troubles being young than I ever have had being a woman. My most hostile work environment was one that was dominated by women- a female boss with other female managers. I was shocked at how they operated...expecting me to let things slide because, hey, we're all girls. It was horrible...I couldn't question something in a meeting without it turning into a very special talk about feelings. Totally ridiculous. My boss felt that all men must disrespect her because she's a woman and that's how she operated, to her detriment.
I've had instances in this job where men have been in meetings with me and not made eye contact and not spoken to me, because they either 1. have a problem with women or 2. don't know my position. I just pipe up and let them know I'm the one in charge and things change. I've got too big a mouth to let that happen.

It's pretty much how I'm treated here as well - but I'm pretty sure I'm only treated this way because everyone knows me so well. If I had started out female, I'm pretty sure I never would've gotten the job. I do know we've *never* had female technical staff here. We've had 5 female receptionists/office managers, but no drafters/designers. And the one female receptionist that requested AutoCAD be installed on her computer so she could learn drafting (so she could help out in busy periods), was fired shortly after.

I've also been turned down for at least one job due to issues - but that was due to gender identity discrimination, not gender discrimination.

Oh, and my wife worked at a place like you described, with the almost fully female staff. Something like an 80/20 split girls/guys overall at the local office (200-300 people total) - her dept was the only one that was majority male, and even it had a female manager.

 

[XOXOXO]

I worked in insurance for years (I also delivered pizzas for a time) prior to becoming an engineer. The insurance place was predominantly female, and it was catty, petty and annoying (but this wasn't a professional environment...we were data entry peeps, nothing more...some customer service too).

I'd avoid a place with a "full" female staff...I'm not saying we should send men to the moon and have all female engineering firms...good God no.

 

[CbusPaul]

Karen, you weren't always a woman? I'm confused and I've read that several times.

 

[csb]

I worked in insurance for years (I also delivered pizzas for a time) prior to becoming an engineer. The insurance place was predominantly female, and it was catty, petty and annoying (but this wasn't a professional environment...we were data entry peeps, nothing more...some customer service too).
I'd avoid a place with a "full" female staff...I'm not saying we should send men to the moon and have all female engineering firms...good God no.

Ours was a "professional" environment and it was catty, petty, and annoying, with most of the women managers using the few men as sounding boards.

 

[XOXOXO]

Karen, you weren't always a woman? I'm confused and I've read that several times.

I was wondering when some one was gonna bring that up.

When I read her posts and viewed her profile I gathered she is a transgendered woman. Must be because I'm from New York.

 

[envirotex]

I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth....

I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.

JR

I don't think that any of the examples cited on this thread are the universal truth for all work situations, and like some of the other posters, some of the worst experiences I've had at work involve other women. It is one of the reasons I think I like working in a male dominated field...not near as much sniping, and women can be vicious.

I'm not sure what would equalize the environment because I don't think it's just the men that I work with, it's society in general, that is still somewhat uncomfortable with women (particularly, women with children) who work outside the home. And I know that there are plenty of men on this board who are very proud of the fact that their wives work, and work hard, my husband is the same, I just think that it takes a really long time for some cultural changes to occur. To again, cite a specific example from Merrimac, a man generally wouldn't ask another man who watches his kids while he's at work...it's an innocent question, and the questioner might not even realize that a female colleague could take exception. So, by the same token, while we're waiting for the cultural shift, you kind of have to take the good with the bad..."we've come a long way, baby."

 

[XOXOXO]

^ concur on the "particularly women with children who work outside the home."

I've been criticized at work for needing time (flex and otherwise) to tend to my three children...

and I've been criticized by neighbors/family/friends for working too hard...and in their words "neglecting" my children.

I was actually asked, "but then what kind of mother are you going to be?" when explaining my aspirations to another woman.

Also concur on the cultural shift wait. That is what the point is.

Still waiting...

 

[Exception Collection]

Karen, you weren't always a woman? I'm confused and I've read that several times.

Well said.
It's been a particularly nasty shock for me, since I'm transgendered, and only "recently" out - I've had more issues with clients and others disrespecting me in the past 8 months that I've been visibly female than I had in the 10 years or so prior to that. I've gotten comments about how I must be PMSing, I've had clients hit on me randomly, and I've been told that women are too emotional for this line of work.

I was wondering when some one was gonna bring that up.
When I read her posts and viewed her profile I gathered she is a transgendered woman. Must be because I'm from New York.

Probably because you'd read it and acknowledged it yesterday.

Karen, God bless you for sharing that.

It's even in the same thread!

In any case, yes, I was always a woman - in my brain, and in my soul (if you believe in that. I do.) - It just didn't match the physical. I started my full time transition last October, after notifying my employer and coworkers in March '10. So yes, I've experienced the "male privilege", and I must say that while I never really believed in it previously, the differences in my experiences pre and post transition - even amongst those that don't know that I'm transgendered - have been significant.

Take for example a post I made on another thread here on EB. I commented that someone that had failed the exam 3 times may want to reconsider taking it again without refresher courses (they were trying to find out if they could get around the requirement), or something along those lines. Last year, I would've been told "harsh", or maybe "harsh but reasonable". Instead, I got blasted somewhat, and one person made the following comment:

wow. a woman who gets right to the point and is not afraid of hurting someones feelings...i think im in love

Now, while I'm not going to (directly) comment on the appropriateness of the nickname, that to me seemed massively inappropriate to use during a professional discussion between peers and prospective peers.

 

[XOXOXO]

No I knew before you wrote it...you then confirmed it...you were talking about your wife in your first post, before mentioning anything else, and I also read your profile, prior to you spelling it out.

And I think you obviously offer a unique perspective to all of this...

 

[MGX]

So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?

There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Supe]

Correct proportion of women in the office = the number to fill my own position - 1

 

[MGX]

It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.

I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?

 

[XOXOXO]

So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?
There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.

I am so gonna have my cake and eat it...

Dunno any magic...I just know that is is disproportionate. And to quote my two year old, "I don't like that."

 

[DVINNY]

Very interesting thread to say the least.

I have to add a new variable: the size of the company.

I have worked at smaller companies, one had 20-25 employees at any given time, one had 600-800 employees at any given time, and now one that has 13,000+ employees.

I can tell you that the atmosphere for women working in the different sized companies is quite different. At least from my (non-female) perspective.

I think the 13,000+ company offers the best environment, with less discrimination, and the small 20 person company was too small and personal for any 'cliques', everyone was like family. The 600-800 employee company, I witnessed things similar to what was mentioned above, and was probably the worst of the three for a female worker. In my opinion.

So what size companies are the women in this thread working in?

 

[XOXOXO]

Very interesting thread to say the least.
I have to add a new variable: the size of the company.

I have worked at smaller companies, one had 20-25 employees at any given time, one had 600-800 employees at any given time, and now one that has 13,000+ employees.

I can tell you that the atmosphere for women working in the different sized companies is quite different. At least from my (non-female) perspective.

I think the 13,000+ company offers the best environment, with less discrimination, and the small 20 person company was too small and personal for any 'cliques', everyone was like family. The 600-800 employee company, I witnessed things similar to what was mentioned above, and was probably the worst of the three for a female worker. In my opinion.

So what size companies are the women in this thread working in?

Interesting question...first firm was less than 200 ee's (where the "things we do not speak of" mentioned above occurred). Granted, excellent firm/reputation/experience...but frustrating to say the least...rich heritage of an old boys club, and that is what I respected most about it...thought to myself "I got in!" They are like the ivy league of specialized design firms. I think they are making great strides though now...I got the timing wrong. There is one special "hard hitter" woman they brought in (possibly to change the aforementioned perceived (will throw that in) problem).

Current firm is 1000+ employees, better, but yes, cliquey as you say. Definitely few women engineers, but two are in charge, very seasoned, plenty of women in HR etc. Very very difficult transition (and I thought I saw it all)...hard to explain without being specific and I'm not into self-sabotage.

I haven't hit the 10,000+ level yet...but have considered it, and surmised what you wrote above...that it would probably be "better."

 

[XOXOXO]

It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.
I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?

Let's stop the browbeating...and I will ignore your last sentence (for now)...

Here are some of the facts as I knew it (late 80's to 2003...I was in middle school/high school/and college in this era...and started my career as an engineer in 2003, the end of the data presented here).

Am working on locating stats for 2003 to the Present (and am going on the assumption that it has improved in some sectors).

 

[envirotex]

So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?
There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.

What I said was that I chose to work in a field where I knew there would be more men than women, and that works for me, personally. I don't know if there will ever be any equality for the numbers of men and women working in engineering fields. What I see happening and what I am hopeful for is a shift in the attitudes towards gender in the workplace...

It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.
I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?

There are plenty of data to show that there are less women in engineering fields than men (look in your own office, if you don't believe me), and a number of studies that indicate that reason leave engineering and science professions is because of the workplace culture. (See also the 2011 NSF study on why women leave engineering...)

In terms of evidence for whether or not more women in the engineering workforce, think of the overall labor pool for qualified engineers...If you believe that men and women are equally intelligent, then what we are seeing is a significant loss to the talent pool of qualified engineers when women decide not to pursue engineering careers, and so we lose technical expertise in engineering fields where we otherwise could have made significant advances. It's kind of like saying all of the best football players are from Texas...

 

[XOXOXO]

So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?
There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.

What I said was that I chose to work in a field where I knew there would be more men than women, and that works for me, personally. I don't know if there will ever be any equality for the numbers of men and women working in engineering fields. What I see happening and what I am hopeful for is a shift in the attitudes towards gender in the workplace...

It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.
I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?

There are plenty of data to show that there are less women in engineering fields than men (look in your own office, if you don't believe me), and a number of studies that indicate that reason leave engineering and science professions is because of the workplace culture. (See also the 2011 NSF study on why women leave engineering...)

In terms of evidence for whether or not more women in the engineering workforce, think of the overall labor pool for qualified engineers...If you believe that men and women are equally intelligent, then what we are seeing is a significant loss to the talent pool of qualified engineers when women decide not to pursue engineering careers, and so we lose technical expertise in engineering fields where we otherwise could have made significant advances. It's kind of like saying all of the best football players are from Texas...

Am compiling some info/data and ran across this...you just mentioned it...

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...1976774,00.html

 

[MGX]

Thanks for the information. I will agree that women can be stifled in the engineering workplace. Being in construction, there is a noticeable dearth of women in the field and office. However PO said time will change this and to that I must agree. Once the old boys are retired and gone we should see more women encouraged to pursue engineering as a profession and be promoted. In fact, my undergrad class (civil) is near 50/50 male female. Camaraderie is good in spite of the gender differences so the only variable that is obvious is the age difference between younger students and workers and the management in engineering firms.

 

[Exception Collection]

Very interesting thread to say the least.
I have to add a new variable: the size of the company.

I have worked at smaller companies, one had 20-25 employees at any given time, one had 600-800 employees at any given time, and now one that has 13,000+ employees.

I can tell you that the atmosphere for women working in the different sized companies is quite different. At least from my (non-female) perspective.

I think the 13,000+ company offers the best environment, with less discrimination, and the small 20 person company was too small and personal for any 'cliques', everyone was like family. The 600-800 employee company, I witnessed things similar to what was mentioned above, and was probably the worst of the three for a female worker. In my opinion.

So what size companies are the women in this thread working in?

I work in a small office. 5 design staff, with 3 licensed engineers (Structural & Civil) and 2 designer/drafters. They're all men; as I mentioned above, I don't think they've (knowingly) hired any women at all for engineering positions.