Parents, don't let your kids grow up to be engineers!
- Thread starter Exengineer
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However, it doesn't seem like PO'd Mommy ever tried to take her sex out of the conversation. Including bringing up her going to a nude beach over the weekend. It seems like she enjoys being the only female around and it seems to be THE topic of conversation every time she comments.
maryannette
Wise One
Well, there are some engineers I work with who think they are the greatest gift to the world because of their knowledge. I don't judge all engineers to be so conceited.
Exception Collection
Civil P.E., Washington
Well said.
It's been a particularly nasty shock for me, since I'm transgendered, and only "recently" out - I've had more issues with clients and others disrespecting me in the past 8 months that I've been visibly female than I had in the 10 years or so prior to that. I've gotten comments about how I must be PMSing, I've had clients hit on me randomly, and I've been told that women are too emotional for this line of work.
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Road Guy
Well-known member
I think women get hit on in all lines of work, my wife is a nurse and will have fat half dead guys hit on her while they lie in the bed shitting themselves...
Just because women get "hit on" doesnt necessarily make engineering any worse a career field than others...
Just because women get "hit on" doesnt necessarily make engineering any worse a career field than others...
It does happen occassionally...I just pretend that I don't have any idea that they are hitting on me, and steer them back towards the task at hand...They usually get the message.
If that doesn't work, I suggest that they should meet my husband, since they have similar interests.
csb
Well-known member
I use the same approach to getting hit on...just pretending it's not happening. I've rarely had someone cross a line that I'm not comfortable with and in those instances it's been easy enough to buddy up with another engineer (male or female) so I'm not alone.
I've heard men say to each other "oh, is so and so pms-ing" but no one would dare say something like that to me. Most of the insults around here are general and not gender based.
I've heard men say to each other "oh, is so and so pms-ing" but no one would dare say something like that to me. Most of the insults around here are general and not gender based.
Exception Collection
Civil P.E., Washington
It does happen occassionally...I just pretend that I don't have any idea that they are hitting on me, and steer them back towards the task at hand...They usually get the message.
If that doesn't work, I suggest that they should meet my husband, since they have similar interests.
Yeah, I generally ignore it. Married, plus I've been out of the dating game for so long that I can't even tell half the time if I'm being hit on or the other person's just friendly. It's mostly the PMS comments and similar things that bug me. Or having my opinion (as the licensed P.E. on a project) being ignored by the client, who then asked a subordinate what he thought. That one enraged me.
Fortunately, the coworker said "Karen's right", or a variant thereof.
Why on earth would I ever take sex out of a conversation?
The point of this rant take-over is that I am a women, and WE are not equally represented on the executive level, or any level below that and I'm damn PO-ed about it!
MEN can talk about sex, joke about sex, talk about porn, etc. but if PO-ed mommy does it all of a sudden I'm an attention seeker?
And if YOU men can put girls with jiggly boobs to be funny, then I can talk about being naked all I damn well please.
Thank you very much.
Karen, God bless you for sharing that.
Merrimac...been there, done that...gender and race...sexual orientation...people don't want "preferential" treatment, but if that's what it takes to get us where we need to be, then so be it.
I work VERY hard...but what jackasses at worked noticed was that I had to be out for a week for a family issue, and requested (and was approved) to have a modified/reduced work week while I handled the previously mentioned trauma...
But they patted the guy who became a new dad on the back for showing up to his wife's c-section and returned to work a couple of days later. I was shocked he didn't take off several weeks to be with his wife, who just had major surgery, and his new baby.
There are differences...yes, and they need to be understood. We are not the same...and there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with that. Just "doing your job" may be different for me...and that shouldn't be a negative thing. The point of this discussion is to understand how women fit in to a working world dominated and designed by men.
I'm sure that totally benign sentence above is going to generate all sorts of negativity...here we go!
G
Guest
I find it interesting that you respond to gender bias with your own brand of gender bias.
A few definitions from dictionary.com before you become PO'd at me:
bias
: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.prejudice (n, v): unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
So, in my humble opinion, characterizing the work world dominated and designed by men, suggesting by extrapolation, it is oppressive to women perpetrates generalizations of a class of people, in this case men.
Don't get me wrong - I believe the points made by you, Mary, Karen, csb, and envirotex are not only valid but certainly not isolated. At the same time, it isn't right or fair to make sweeping generalizations about men in the workplace. For that is, by definition, the very nature of prejudice.
It's not benign if cloaked in reverse-bias/prejudice.
Again, I am all for making the workplace diverse and free from harrassment. Casting aspersions towards men, in general, isn't the way to achieve fair treatment, in my humble opinion.
JR
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I love how anything that is said FOR one group, is somehow AGAINST another...I find it interesting that you respond to gender bias with your own brand of gender bias.
A few definitions from dictionary.com before you become PO'd at me:
bias
prejudice (n, v): unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.
So, in my humble opinion, characterizing the work world dominated and designed by men, suggesting by extrapolation, it is oppressive to women perpetrates generalizations of a class of people, in this case men.
Don't get me wrong - I believe the points made by you, Mary, Karen, csb, and envirotex are not only valid but certainly not isolated. At the same time, it isn't right or fair to make sweeping generalizations about men in the workplace. For that is, by definition, the very nature of prejudice.
It's not benign if cloaked in reverse-bias/prejudice.
Again, I am all for making the workplace diverse and free from harrassment. Casting aspersions towards men, in general, isn't the way to achieve fair treatment, in my humble opinion.
JR
I know men are into sports (generalization/stereotypical yes, stated for the sake of argument since we are now dissecting everything)...and they have to pick a team, and fight/kill/die for that team...but that is not necessary here. I don't hate men...in fact I think they are great!
That said...if I talk (or even hint) about anything even remotely sexy, it is frowned upon. Why? Are we not all adults here? I just had a female colleague tell me that her boss (follow me here) told her that a principal from another firm (still with me) complained that she used an expletive at a meeting. Now for me, I would never curse in a meeting, ever. But she explained to her boss that not only had it been done before (and even in his presence) it was totally unfair for her to be singled out...but she agreed to stop. Not even a day later, her boss goes to her and apologizes. Seems he had a meeting and he threw around inappropriate language, as did the others in the room (oh, did I mention it was all men?)...AND (almost finished) he couldn't believe that he never noticed before...until someone complained about (you guessed it) HER. And he said...you know what? There is a double standard. And my friends, there is.
So in my not so humble opinion, you've got it all wrong and are unfortunately missing the point. We can obviously argue till the cows come home (or bulls for that matter)...nothing written/implied is of any bias/prejudicial nature...
Just sayin...
G
Guest
Well, if you want to respond to factual statements with anecdotes and take limited experiences to apply to a broader group and call it truth, well, then you are correct. I can't argue with THAT truth no more than I can argue that Christianity is greater than Islam.
I don't deny your experience, or that of the other ladies who posted within this thread. I honestly believe you have been subjected to hostile, unfair work practices by the examples provided. It is not fair.
I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth.
As far as talking sexy, offensive, or in any manner you feel - it's a free country, I hold nothing against you or any other person for doing so. I think you should talk anyway you like.
As for me, I don't dislike women. To the contrary, I like women very much. I not only appreciate your points but I am not discouraging your voicing out of your experiences.
I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.
JR
I don't deny your experience, or that of the other ladies who posted within this thread. I honestly believe you have been subjected to hostile, unfair work practices by the examples provided. It is not fair.
I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth.
As far as talking sexy, offensive, or in any manner you feel - it's a free country, I hold nothing against you or any other person for doing so. I think you should talk anyway you like.
As for me, I don't dislike women. To the contrary, I like women very much. I not only appreciate your points but I am not discouraging your voicing out of your experiences.
I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.
JR
Exception Collection
Civil P.E., Washington
Not sure about others. But for me, I would prefer to be treated overall as just one of the people working there. No more, no less. I don't want other people to do inspections instead of me so I can keep my clothing clean (I keep inspection clothes in the car), I don't want clients or coworkers to skip over me and ask my male colleagues questions, and I don't want to be treated differently - well, not in a greater sense - than I was a year and a half ago.Well, if you want to respond to factual statements with anecdotes and take limited experiences to apply to a broader group and call it truth, well, then you are correct. I can't argue with THAT truth no more than I can argue that Christianity is greater than Islam.
I don't deny your experience, or that of the other ladies who posted within this thread. I honestly believe you have been subjected to hostile, unfair work practices by the examples provided. It is not fair.
I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth.
As far as talking sexy, offensive, or in any manner you feel - it's a free country, I hold nothing against you or any other person for doing so. I think you should talk anyway you like.
As for me, I don't dislike women. To the contrary, I like women very much. I not only appreciate your points but I am not discouraging your voicing out of your experiences.
I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.
JR
G
Guest
^^^ That's completely fair and should be expected from your employer/workplace.
JR
JR
csb
Well-known member
This IS how I'm treated at work. I've had more troubles being young than I ever have had being a woman. My most hostile work environment was one that was dominated by women- a female boss with other female managers. I was shocked at how they operated...expecting me to let things slide because, hey, we're all girls. It was horrible...I couldn't question something in a meeting without it turning into a very special talk about feelings. Totally ridiculous. My boss felt that all men must disrespect her because she's a woman and that's how she operated, to her detriment.
I've had instances in this job where men have been in meetings with me and not made eye contact and not spoken to me, because they either 1. have a problem with women or 2. don't know my position. I just pipe up and let them know I'm the one in charge and things change. I've got too big a mouth to let that happen.
RIP - VTEnviro
His Memory Eternal
No one at the office gave me a hard time about the youth thing, but contractors would try to pull shit on me all the time on site. If something smelled fishy, but I didn't have a great answer for the guy, I'd grab my phone and say I'm going to check in with my boss before we proceed. They'd almost always immediately drop it and do it per spec. It was a good technique.
G
Guest
^^^ If your motivation is to provide entertainment while delivering a public service announcement, that's okay by me.
JR
JR
Exception Collection
Civil P.E., Washington
Oh yes this happened to me regularly. Not a gender thing, an inexperience or corrupt thing. Fortunately/Unfortunately, these days I know exactly where the borders of OK changes and not OK changes are.
I angered a contractor off a few weeks ago; he had "missed" half of the anchor bolts in a structure (had the same all around, when some shear walls had them specced out at as close as 12" o.c.)... he asked if wedge anchors would be acceptable, I told him "yes in these areas, no in those" - with the no (top of a retaining wall; they were failing in shear due to the edge distance) comprising the vast majority of the locations.
The speed at which he got things fixed tells me he had the anchors on site, he just hadn't bothered installing them.
(That was the one inspection I wish someone else had been able to do - not because I'm a girl, but because sending the acrophobe out on wet & muddy scaffolding to look at a 10' retaining wall seems a bad idea... not that I didn't get it done. I just wish I'd asked someone else to take care of it instead.)
