Job Title "Engineer" without PE?

[Tark62]

I guess what I'm saying is that all programming is not writing a few lines of SQL, HTML or Basic. Some of it is pretty advanced.

I don't think anyone doubts that some programming is "pretty advanced". But -- as you acknowledge -- maybe some programming isn't. Are you comfortable granting the title of "software engineer" to a junior high school kid that developed some cute applets for his website ? If the title is completely unregulated -- as it is in my state -- then anyone can claim it.

 

[benbo]

I don't think anyone doubts that some programming is "pretty advanced". But -- as you acknowledge -- maybe some programming isn't. Are you comfortable granting the title of "software engineer" to a junior high school kid that developed some cute applets for his website ? If the title is completely unregulated -- as it is in my state -- then anyone can claim it.

If you want to regulate the title, that's fine with me. I don't really care much one way or the other. I just think it's absurd to imply that there is no such thing as software engineering, or that no software enigineering requires mathematics. And I'm not saying what you said was absurd, I'm responding to a recurring notion that there is no such thing as a software engineer, period. That they are all glorified data entry people. I disagree with that.

Additionally, the technical level of work which I perform now, after getting my PE, is actually less than the work I performed in aerospace or semicondcutor work. The only difference is that I passed a test.

 

[Dleg]

Tark62, I think we can agree on the basic principle that we as engineers ought to take a more aggressive approach to defending our livelihood. I also have no problem with trying to regulate use of the title "engineer" similar to what lawyers have done. All I am trying to say is that the engineering profession has never even been close to that point, and after 100 years, it seems obvious to me that the licensing model developed by the building/construction industry has failed to work for the rest of engineering.

 

[IlPadrino]

I am a PE and an electrical engineer by trade and education. But I don't understand this marginalization of software engineers or programmers. The notion that real programmers don't know math - I just don't get it. We are using an internet that was designed by programmers, and at work we use operating systems and applications programmed by programmers. A lot of innovation is in the programming of devices, not the hardware. Do you think firmware programming for cells phones or GPS systems is simple? I guarantee it isn't. And programmers use lots of math, especially numerical methods.
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I guess what I'm saying is that all programming is not writing a few lines of SQL, HTML or Basic. Some of it is pretty advanced.

What's wrong with calling "the process of what programmers do" programming? Once upon a time I think there were some new school programmers who didn't like the stereotype of the old school programmers and came up with a new title. Now there are some programmers you don't like the term "engineering" and call themselves "software artists". Rejecting Software Engineering is an interesting discussion on the topic.

I don't think anyone can reasonably disparage those that create and maintain software (whatever you want to call them). When you talk about the recurring notion that there is "no such thing as software engineering", it comes down to what defines engineering. Most "software engineers" have Computer Science degrees, not Engineering degrees - which makes sense considering there is already a well defined field of Computer Engineering. So there's the added challend that to be a registered P.E. you need an ABET accredited Engineering degree. Programmers certainly "develop" software... we can call them "software developers". I think no one should rightly consider what programmers do as a subset of Engineering. Certainly there are programming and algorithm aspects of Electrical and Computer Engineering or Control Systems Engineering. But it just doesn't seem reasonable that they have more in common with Engineering than Science. It would be a great challenge for most software developers to pass the FE exam.

NCEES Survey contains a list of what Engineering titles are restricted by State. Does anyone know what happened with Texas that had started licensing Software Engineers back in the late 1990s? I googled but couldn't find anything. Are these P.E.s liable for errors and omissions? I sure hope so! Imagine suing Microsoft for those BSOD. This points out another problem with licensing software developers as P.E.s: what are the standards of practice? There are many design methodologies for software development, but there are no standard design PRACTICES. What would malpractice mean to a software engineer?

I did run across an interesting (but dated) article that supports the Software Engineer: SE Illegal. But I think the article Professionalism does an even better job of explaining why it doesn't make sense.

For me, the bottom line is this: Engineers have more to lose than to gain by adding software developers to their ranks. Let them come up with their own title.

Disclaimer: My undergraduate degree is in Computer and Systems Engineering and my graduate degree is in Information Technology Management. I've done a fair share of developing software. I don't consider it anything similar to what I've done as a Civil Engineer. Yeah... it was hard. So is brain surgery.

 

[benbo]

It would be a great challenge for most software developers to pass the FE exam.

Where do you get this experience? What kind of software developers are you talking about? I wish you would be specific about exactly what they do. Because I work with a couple who passed both the FE and the electrical PE. I'm not sure what their degrees were in, but they spent a lot of their careers developing software for aerospace. When I worked in Silicon Valley I knew a Java developer who took the FE on a whim (actually because I was taking it and he wanted to test himself). He didn't study at all and passed. So I guess we just have different experience with software engineers, programmers, developers, or whatever you want to call them.

As far as the degree - a person could have a computer engineering degree or an EE degree or whatever and still say their work is "Software Engineering." Obviously, a peson is more defined by what their occupation is than what your degree is, and you are a prime example.

THe folks at the IEEE don't seem to have a problem with the term software engineering.

http://www.computer.org/portal/site/seport...eneric.xsl&

I guess your one article writer (who talks about slide rules for engineers) considers IEEE an outlaw organization. Well, their standards are used all over the world. So I'll go with them, as opposed to some fellow who writes on Dr. Dobbs about being too lazy to renew his license. And I don't even see this fellow arguing against the term "software engineering." He is basically saying it is not worth it for developers to get a PE because they don't use it. It is required for my current job but I don't stamp anything either. You work for the Navy. Do you stamp a lot of documents? Is that required in the military?

He also points out that this goes for most EEs and MEs because of various exemptions for industry. Are you arguing against these exemptions? Because I suspect that will be a losing argument since there are far more "engineers" in industy without PEs than with them.

 

[Dleg]

Software development is too broad to be able to talk about it in these terms. There are obviously engineer-software developers who use the laws of physics and engineering principles to develop control and simulation software, who I have no problem calling engineers, and then there are videogame developers and cash-register programmers. So obvious there needs to be some definition.

 

[benbo]

Software development is too broad to be able to talk about it in these terms. There are obviously engineer-software developers who use the laws of physics and engineering principles to develop control and simulation software, who I have no problem calling engineers, and then there are videogame developers and cash-register programmers. So obvious there needs to be some definition.

THat makes sense to me. This is the reason I think there are some software engineers at least. To me, an engineer is given a problem to solve to a set of specifications, and uses technical and mathematical expertise to solve the problem, then tests the solution often to standards. THere are standards for software, I believe there are even MIL Specs for software. At least I remember fellows in uniform sitting with software developers testing progams for failure ad nausem. For that reason I think the guy who designs the targetting software for the Patriot missile is every bit as much an engineer as some fellow who designs grade separations. But that's just my opinion, and I can see that many others have their own opinions and aren't likely to change. I will say, good luck to you in your quest to eliminate the software engineer title. I think that ship has sailed.

As far as video game programming, I don't know if you've done a lot of it, but I'm not sure it's all that non technical. I guess it depends on the game. I haven't done a lot of it either, unless you count progamming a hangman game in Basic.

 

[IlPadrino]

Where do you get this experience? What kind of software developers are you talking about? I wish you would be specific about exactly what they do. Because I work with a couple who passed both the FE and the electrical PE. I'm not sure what their degrees were in, but they spent a lot of their careers developing software for aerospace. When I worked in Silicon Valley I knew a Java developer who took the FE on a whim (actually because I was taking it and he wanted to test himself). He didn't study at all and passed. So I guess we just have different experience with software engineers, programmers, developers, or whatever you want to call them.

I get my experience with government IT development and my educational colleagues. When I wrote "most", I meant more than half but not all; sure there are many exceptions especially for those that work in the engineering realm. I agree with Dleg that there are many different types of software developers but I consider the stereotypical programmer working on business applications, personal entertainment, OS, or webdev. Do you think more software developers have a Computer Science degree or an Engineering degree? I'm confident it's the former. And I also think most software developers have very little engineering education. According to the NSPE, the following engineers definitions apply

Computer: Computer engineering involves the design, construction, and operation of computer systems. Computer engineers work on both computer hardware and software (programming) problems.
Control Systems: Control systems engineering involves the design and manufacture of instrumentation and ways to control dynamic processes automatically. Such engineers draw on a variety of disciplines, including elements of electrical, mechanical, and chemical, and focus on the technologies needed for feedback and feedforward control of dynamic systems. These engineers ensure safe and efficient system performance.

I think those do cover some software developers but let's call them Computer Engineers or Control Systems Engineers.

As far as the degree - a person could have a computer engineering degree or an EE degree or whatever and still say their work is "Software Engineering." Obviously, a peson is more defined by what their occupation is than what your degree is, and you are a prime example.

I don't disagree with that... it's just another reason that credentials and registration are important. Otherwise, we'd be calling sports trainers doctors.

THe folks at the IEEE don't seem to have a problem with the term software engineering.http://www.computer.org/portal/site/seport...eneric.xsl&

I guess your one article writer (who talks about slide rules for engineers) considers IEEE an outlaw organization. Well, their standards are used all over the world. So I'll go with them, as opposed to some fellow who writes on Dr. Dobbs about being too lazy to renew his license. And I don't even see this fellow arguing against the term "software engineering." He is basically saying it is not worth it for developers to get a PE because they don't use it. It is required for my current job but I don't stamp anything either. You work for the Navy. Do you stamp a lot of documents? Is that required in the military?

He also points out that this goes for most EEs and MEs because of various exemptions for industry. Are you arguing against these exemptions? Because I suspect that will be a losing argument since there are far more "engineers" in industy without PEs than with them.

The author is a member of IEEE so I don't think he considers the IEEE an outlaw organization. I linked to that article because I find it an interesting perspective. I think it's right that States protect the title "Engineer" and here was a guy that got his PE, found it didn't do much for his business (other than letting him get started!), and then abandoned it. I will never stamp a document, but considering it is "... the mark of a professional. The licensure process demands an extra measure of competence and dedication." (see Why Should You Get Licensed?), it is required for my military career field.

I haven't thought much about the exemptions (which are a State issue) but I think I'm probably not in favor of them in theory but support them in practice. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, Oregon doesn't have any exemptions. I'd have to give it more thought...

 

[JoeBoone82]

Where I work.... there is no Field Engineer, Design Engineer, etc. I will be a Civil Engineer Intern (just like the certification says... EI or EIT) until I pass the P.E. Only then can I remove the "intern" from my title.

 

[SuperAlpha]

Texas regulates the use of the word engineer and all synonyms such as designer, consultant, etc. Many industries are exempt but the main ones that are not are the ones that provide engineering/design/consultant services.

 

[benbo]

My basic opinion now is, why did I spend so much time arguing on this thread in the first place? I'm a PE and I regulate the power industry. Let the IT guys fight their own battles!

 

[IlPadrino]

My basic opinion now is, why did I spend so much time arguing on this thread in the first place? I'm a PE and I regulate the power industry. Let the IT guys fight their own battles!

Any critical thought is good for the brain. It sure beats probability brain-teasers, doesn't it?

 

[IlPadrino]

All I know is that in my state I need to be a PE in order to hold the job that I hold. Holding said job provides me with the highest civilian salary I've ever earned. Therefore, I don't care who calls themselves engineers so long as they aren't holding my position without a PE.

What if some software developer got a PE in Texas and then applied for comity in VA and then got your job because he was cousins with your boss' wife?

 

[IlPadrino]

Well, I guess then I'd have to wonder when my boss turned into a lesbian...

Ouch! I almost always try to write in gender-neutral terms but I slip up every now and again.

Maybe you're boss swings both ways (not that there's anything wrong with that!) and I should have wrote "ex-wife".

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

I'm now in Mass and I know that they recently revised their PE regs to cover this item. You gotta be a PE to call yourself an engineer, and if you're licensed out of state only you have to put "licensed in (state)" after your name.

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

What if some software developer got a PE in Texas and then applied for comity in VA and then got your job because he was cousins with your boss' wife?

Something similar happened to a friend of mine. He got a PE in Texas for CSE by experience and when he applied for comity in another state, they made him take the exam. That would be difficult in your example as there is no software engineering PE exam - yet. So I doubt very seriously if VA would grant him a license.

 

[IlPadrino]

Something similar happened to a friend of mine. He got a PE in Texas for CSE by experience and when he applied for comity in another state, they made him take the exam. That would be difficult in your example as there is no software engineering PE exam - yet. So I doubt very seriously if VA would grant him a license.

Right... I was just pointing out to Sapper that although he doesn't care if software developers were to be put under the PE umbrella, it could make a difference given many qualifications for employment just require *any* PE.

 

[WAHOO-LONGHORN]

Just wondering:

For civil design firms:

How common is it to have non-degreed engineers titled as "Project Coordinator", "Project Manager", or "Project Engineer"? I worked in TX for a while and non-degreed folks were always drafters. Moved to MD 3.5 yrs ago. It is very common in my firm to have ex-DOT employees as "project managers" and non-or associate's degreeed experienced drafters as "project engineers". It seems ridiculous to me to have a non-degreed individual managing EITs. When I was an EIT, I definitely wanted to work for a PE, if for nothing else that to have him sign for me for the test. This occurs not only at my firm, but at other firms around town. I am a PE and a project manager at the firm, and myself and other registerd folks generally agree that non-degreed people that do technical work should be called designers not engineers. The project manager thing I'm not so sure about.

Thoughts?

 

[Vinsanity]

Just wondering:
For civil design firms:

How common is it to have non-degreed engineers titled as "Project Coordinator", "Project Manager", or "Project Engineer"? I worked in TX for a while and non-degreed folks were always drafters. Moved to MD 3.5 yrs ago. It is very common in my firm to have ex-DOT employees as "project managers" and non-or associate's degreeed experienced drafters as "project engineers". It seems ridiculous to me to have a non-degreed individual managing EITs. When I was an EIT, I definitely wanted to work for a PE, if for nothing else that to have him sign for me for the test. This occurs not only at my firm, but at other firms around town. I am a PE and a project manager at the firm, and myself and other registerd folks generally agree that non-degreed people that do technical work should be called designers not engineers. The project manager thing I'm not so sure about.

Thoughts?

I Strongly Agree...

I have BSCE and MS and currently working under PE's and some Technologists and non degreed TEch's too, these people above me are senior and company shareholders, they even got the title project manager. and etc.

 

[JoeBoone82]

Just wondering:
For civil design firms:

How common is it to have non-degreed engineers titled as "Project Coordinator", "Project Manager", or "Project Engineer"? I worked in TX for a while and non-degreed folks were always drafters. Moved to MD 3.5 yrs ago. It is very common in my firm to have ex-DOT employees as "project managers" and non-or associate's degreeed experienced drafters as "project engineers". It seems ridiculous to me to have a non-degreed individual managing EITs. When I was an EIT, I definitely wanted to work for a PE, if for nothing else that to have him sign for me for the test. This occurs not only at my firm, but at other firms around town. I am a PE and a project manager at the firm, and myself and other registerd folks generally agree that non-degreed people that do technical work should be called designers not engineers. The project manager thing I'm not so sure about.

Thoughts?

I agree as well. We have a lot of ex-DOT employees as well, but most are PE's when the come to work here in the private industry. I do not know of any non-PE's here that are labeled Project Engineers. All of the Project Managers that I know of are also PE's. There are a few around here that do have TONS of experience that are not licensed or have a engineering degree, but they are not any of the titles listed above. Some of them though are just as good as some licensed engineers, just because they have been in the practice for so long.