Is it true that you don't have to be an engineer in some states to obtain a PE?

[benbo]

Just to clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking these exams just to "test your mettle." But there is a difference between taking the exam and getting a license. I also enjoy taking exams (for some strange reason) although I doubt I would retake any PE exams. I plan to take the CRE exam next year just for the heck of it. I guess I just assumed from your indignation and despondency over not being able to take the test that you were some desperate fellow who was unemployed and unable to work in your chosen profession because of some "catch-22".

A PE is different than a CISCO cert or a CRE, because it implies a legal responsibility and culpability. I don't believe there is a process to revoke your CISCO cert if you make a network mistake. Also, I believe you can get the CISCO cert with no experience - that is probably why the test is harder.

The PE relies on education / experience and exam. My coworker is licensed in mechanical, civil and metallurgical. But he has education and experience in all those areas. I don't think there is any way you should trust someone to design a safety critical system if all you knew about them was that they passed the PE test. The test is just one stop gap. That is probably why they require PEs in many states for references - if they fudge a reference they concievably put their own license at risk.

If NCEES was smart they would allow people to take the tests for a fee "just for the heck of it." Then the results would expire in X amount of time. If the person just wanted to see if they could pass, no harm done. If they actually wanted a license they would have that amount of time to get the requisite experience. Maybe some states already do this.

By the way, because it seems like a major part of your desire to take the test is the personal satisfaction angle, you may want to look into taking it in Texas or Virginia. I'm not sure what their requirements are, but they still give out scores. I wouldn't have minded seeing my own score.

 

[IlPadrino]

Someone had mentioned Oregon and Colorado earlier.

Here's Oregon:

820-010-0230
Information to be Furnished by Professional Engineer Applicants
(1) Applicants for admission to examination for registration as professional engineers will be required to submit
evidence to show qualification of eligibility consisting of current enrollment as an EI meeting the requirements of the
State of Oregon at the time of enrollment and the following practice experience:
(a) Applicants qualified under OAR 820-010-0225(3)(a), (3)(d), or (3)(f) shall complete four or more years of active
practice in engineering work in addition to the requirements for admission to examination for enrollment as an EI.
Applicants will be allowed to submit as qualifying work experience that work experience obtained based on
employment up to the date of the PE examination;
(b) Applicants qualified under OAR 820-010-0225(3)(b), (3)(c) or (3)(e) shall complete six or more years of active
practice in engineering work in addition to the requirements for admission to examination for enrollment as an EI. The
six years of active practice year requirement may be reduced to four years provided that the applicant completes at
least 21 semester/32 quarter hours in a curriculum including: Differential Equations, Physics, Statistics, Statics,
Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Electrical Fundamentals and Strength of Materials.
(2) Active practice in engineering work shall be in the applicant's area of competence and under the supervision and
control of a licensed engineer or be active practice in engineering satisfactory to the Board.
(3) Graduation from a post-baccalaureate degree program in engineering at a college or university that has an EAC of
ABET accredited undergraduate degree program in the same field as the post-baccalaureate degree program may be
substituted for one year of the four years of active practice required by this rule so long as the degree was not the basis
for admission to the fundamental examination under OAR 820-010-0225(3)(d).
(4) Experience as a full-time assistant professor, or above, in a Board approved engineering curriculum, may be
considered at the discretion of the Board as qualifying experience.
Stat. Auth.: ORS 670.310 & 672.255
Stats. Implemented: ORS 672.002 - 672.325
Hist.: EE 13, f. 3-29-72, ef. 4-15-72; EE 20, f. & ef. 12-15-77; EE 1-1995, f. 8-15-95, cert. ef. 9-1-95; BEELS 1-1998,
f. & cert. ef. 2-10-98; BEELS 1-2001, f. & cert. ef. 5-22-01; BEELS 1-2002, f. & cert. ef. 3-13-02; BEELS

820-010-0255
References
(1) Engineering, land surveyor, and photogrammetrist applicants and those engineering and land surveying intern
applicants requesting admission to the examination on the basis of experience or a combination of education and
experience must supply to their references special forms provided by the Board for this purpose. Each reference must
have knowledge of the applicant's work for a period of at least one year. A minimum of five references is required by
the Board and at least three of the five references must be registrants in the field of practice in which the applicant
seeks to be registered. The signature and seal of the reference, if licensed, must appear on the returned form.
Qualifying experience accrued by the applicant must be included in the application and all qualifying experience shall
be certified by the person supervising the work as meeting the definition of engineering work, land surveying work or
photogrammetric work as defined in OAR 820-010-0010. The Board may, for good cause upon written application,
reduce the number of references required.
(2) Engineering, land surveyor, and photogrammetrist applicants requesting registration on the basis of comity or
examination by another jurisdiction must supply to their references special forms provided by the Board for this
purpose. Each reference must have knowledge of the applicant's work for a period of at least one year. A minimum of
Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying_820_010 http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_800/OAR_820/820_010.html
12 of 28 5/3/2007 2:05 PM
five references is required by the Board and at least three of the five references must be registrants in the field of
practice in which the applicant seeks to be registered. The signature and seal of the reference, if licensed, must appear
on the returned form. Qualifying experience accrued by the applicant must be included in the application and all
qualifying experience shall be certified by the person supervising the work as meeting the definition of engineering
work, land surveying work or photogrammetric work as defined in OAR 820-010-0010. The Board may, for good
cause upon written application, reduce the number of references required.
Stat. Auth.: ORS 670.310 & 672.255
Stats. Implemented: ORS 672.002 - 672.325
Hist.: EE 13, f. 3-29-72, ef. 4-15-72; EE 20, f. & ef. 12-15-77; EE 1-1992, f. & cert. ef. 2-3-92; EE 1-1995, f. 8-15-95,
cert. ef. 9-1-95; BEELS 1-1998, f. & cert. ef. 2-10-98; BEELS 1-2001, f. & cert. ef. 5-22-01; BEELS 6-2005, f. &
cert. ef. 12-13-05; BEELS 2-2006, f. & cert. ef. 11-21-06

 

[TXengrChickPE]

By the way, because it seems like a major part of your desire to take the test is the personal satisfaction angle, you may want to look into taking it in Texas or Virginia. I'm not sure what their requirements are, but they still give out scores. I wouldn't have minded seeing my own score.

Can't do it in Texas. Yes, we get our scores... but the license application is tedious and must be approved before you can take the exam, and you need three PE references.

 

[gymrat1279 PE]

In MI, all you have to do is sign a statement saying you have the required education and experience before you take the exam. The application and references come after you pass. So you could take it just for fun, but you wouldn't get a score.

You have to send your transcripts to ELSES too... similar to Arizona below.

 

[Casey]

Arizona lets you apply directly to ELSES for the PE exam. All you need to do is send in your university transcripts. And I believe you need a minimum of 2 years experience (you'll need a total of four years before you get your license though).

 

[GT ME]

LOL -- I live in GA & and own a state certified contracting business in Florida.

:smileyballs:

If you're interested in moving to Florida, I hear there's some challenging work in the stormwater and real-estate business. A person of your caliber would be a great fit for YKW - though I'm not sure the state is big enough for both of your egos. On second thought, maybe telecommuting would be better.

 

[GT ME]

My engineering credentials are superior since my engineering was build on a solid foundation, unlike the preponderance of book engineers.

As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation & a background that only a few in the country posess.

It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.

:smileyballs:

I don't have much use for people that think one way or the other is superior. In my experience people are superior at what they do...their path to where they are today is evidence of their ability and success, not the cause. I distrust someone who says "I have a degree in this so I know better than you" just as much as I distrust someone who says "I have done this forever so I know better than you."

 

[GT ME]

Problem is I work as a mgmt consultant for a Fortune 10 firm while operating a sucessfull engineering & contracting firm in Florida.

I would require at least 250k & partnership status to even consider -- without giving up my business.

:smileyballs:

I know of a firm in Orlando, the finest one there, that can use your abilities. If you are interested let me know. I am sure you are going to love the owner and the associates.

 

[Dark Knight]

It would be interesting. Sray is right when he says that your egos are too big to be together.

In case you decide to do it let me know. I will be ready with bags of popcorn waiting for the story to develop.

 

[rwbailey21]

My engineering credentials are superior since my engineering was build on a solid foundation, unlike the preponderance of book engineers.

Word of the Day - Preponderance

Definition - superiority in weight, force, importance, or influence.

This statement reminded me of a statement made by "Iron" Mike Tyson.

"... My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious..."

As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation & a background that only a few in the country posess.

I hate disappoint you, but I did not come from apes. I came from a superior race of hands-on engineers that later became book smart.

It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.
:smileyballs:

Then let me officially welcome you to the club, fellow hands on engineer that later became book smart.

 

[MEPE2B]

My engineering credentials are superior since my engineering was build on a solid foundation, unlike the preponderance of book engineers.
As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation & a background that only a few in the country posess.

It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.

:smileyballs:

I've known a number of engineers over the years that came up from the floor. Many of them had a solid feel for what is practical that gave them an advantage over engineers with a book-only type of leaning.

However, a few of them also had a deep-seeded resentment, and somewhat of an inferiority complex based on the years they had spent working for people that they consider inferior to themselves. It just burned them up inside for all those years that those book-smart punk engineers had rank over them based on a piece of paper they themselves lacked. Not surprising that that when they finally got their own piece of paper that they would take license to crow loudly about their own accomplishments. The engineers in this category usually mellow out after they get about 5 years of post-graduate experience, unless they have deep-down problems stemming from never being good enough in Daddy's eyes.

 

[EM_PS]

As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation & a background that only a few in the country posess.It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.

I know your resp was directed at someone else, but felt compelled to reply on behalf of that part of mankind that most assuredly did not "come from apes" - seriously cheetah, get over yourself.

I've known a number of engineers over the years that came up from the floor. Many of them had a solid feel for what is practical that gave them an advantage over engineers with a book-only type of leaning.
However, a few of them also had a deep-seeded resentment, and somewhat of an inferiority complex based on the years they had spent working for people that they consider inferior to themselves. It just burned them up inside for all those years that those book-smart punk engineers had rank over them based on a piece of paper they themselves lacked. Not surprising that that when they finally got their own piece of paper that they would take license to crow loudly about their own accomplishments. The engineers in this category usually mellow out after they get about 5 years of post-graduate experience, unless they have deep-down problems stemming from never being good enough in Daddy's eyes.

Seriously - my man learns how to derive some of the trig functions from his HP calculator he learned how to run 'on the floor' and thinks he's a super-genious. Just like the life-time instrument man on a survey crew that painfully makes it thru a degree - suddenly ain't no one in the world that can out survey him. You 'technician converts' always oftentimes miss the big picture and know next to nothing on [don't strive to know] what it truly takes to be a professional - or did you think that simply passing tests makes you one?

 

[engineergurl]

Okay, I have kept my mouth shut while observing this thread for a while, but well I've never been very good at doing that for very long. Now that it's boiling down to name calling and insults, bragging and arguments I'll put in my :two cents:.

No it is not ture that you don't have to be an engineer in some states to obtain a PE. A PE is a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING License... in order to be a professional engineer you NEED to be an engineer. With that said, all this discussion of education and experience is a waste of time...

Unfortuantly I'm only particularly familiar with North Carolina's requirements, but they require a COMBINATION of education and experience for the most part. The more "book learning" you have the less experience needed to qualify to take the test. I think it is safe to assume that the reasoning is that one's level of knowledge would be about the same weather they had a Masters Degree OR a Two year degree and X number of years experience. And that X is not just a year or two... it is a significant amount of years.

Simply passing a test does not make anyone a professional... a professional who is someone who has knowledge, the capability, and can handle the pressures, they find the balance between their engineering tasks, problems, designs and the way to communicate their solutions to others in a proper manner. An engineer is a lot of things, or maybe I don't have the big picture... since you know tech converts always miss that?

 

[EM_PS]

I'll take the teeth out of the post - easy now, lets not institute sensitivity training around here -

p.s. - i don't think his ego needs your defense. . . .but do whatya feel you got to

 

[engineergurl]

Thank you EM... I hope you do see the point I was trying to make... even though there are some, that think they are holier then thou because they started with scrubbing floors and then when they were able to obtain a degree and pass, a lot of techs would have loved to have followed a traditional degree program but for some reason or other, they went about things different... perhaps, they couldn't go to college first because the opportunity wasn't there, or perhaps they majored in something else and found their niche in engineering afterwards, or maybe they are just older and happened to work their way up. I do apologize for comming across as defensive... I didn't take it personally, but wanted to get a response in before others started... I'm aware that sarcasm does come across very differently over the internet.

Unfortunatly, my post did seem like I was trying to come to someones defense, but that was an ugly side effect. He gives those who started at the bottom and worked up a bad name because of his arrogance, and there isn't really an excuse for that other then lack of maturity, which apparently was one thing he forgot to learn while working his way up from the floor. (why would he be on the floor anyway... even at the tech level, I have ALWAYS been given a chair).

The issue I have is no matter how anyone gets there, the end result is the matter of fact. So do you need a BS degree or a MS degree to be an engineer? OR Can you have worked for 40 years in the engineering field and be an engineer? Well, if you removed staples from invoices at an engineering office, then no, but if you were preforming the same exact things the educated employee did, isn't it fair to call you an engineer? (ha ha life isn't fair and that was sarcasm)

Ones credentials are means to allow others a glimpse at how one went about obtaining ones intelligence, but they are not a measure of said intelligence.

 

[Brody]

I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.
It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.

But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, & NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.

Only a handful of engineers in the country can boast that -- if any.

And the best is yet to come.

^^ A post like this comes along once in a lifetime. Priceless. Admins: Can this be put into the Hall of Fame for all to see so it doesn't get buried and lost?

 

[KnowledgeAcquirer]

Just to clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking these exams just to "test your mettle." But there is a difference between taking the exam and getting a license. I also enjoy taking exams (for some strange reason) although I doubt I would retake any PE exams. I plan to take the CRE exam next year just for the heck of it. I guess I just assumed from your indignation and despondency over not being able to take the test that you were some desperate fellow who was unemployed and unable to work in your chosen profession because of some "catch-22".
A PE is different than a CISCO cert or a CRE, because it implies a legal responsibility and culpability. I don't believe there is a process to revoke your CISCO cert if you make a network mistake. Also, I believe you can get the CISCO cert with no experience - that is probably why the test is harder.

The PE relies on education / experience and exam. My coworker is licensed in mechanical, civil and metallurgical. But he has education and experience in all those areas. I don't think there is any way you should trust someone to design a safety critical system if all you knew about them was that they passed the PE test. The test is just one stop gap. That is probably why they require PEs in many states for references - if they fudge a reference they concievably put their own license at risk.

If NCEES was smart they would allow people to take the tests for a fee "just for the heck of it." Then the results would expire in X amount of time. If the person just wanted to see if they could pass, no harm done. If they actually wanted a license they would have that amount of time to get the requisite experience. Maybe some states already do this.

By the way, because it seems like a major part of your desire to take the test is the personal satisfaction angle, you may want to look into taking it in Texas or Virginia. I'm not sure what their requirements are, but they still give out scores. I wouldn't have minded seeing my own score.

I think you brought out 2 good points here Benbo (see I'm open-minded).

A PE is different than a CISCO cert or a CRE, because it implies a legal responsibility and culpability.

However one can interpret this to mean that NCEES does not see all of the years of engineering experience under experienced engineers (though they are without PE licenses) on classified programs or commercial products as not implying a legal responsibility? That ought to open the eyes to those who've worked on black programs or NSA programs .... Those are a lot more punitive than any violation that results in the loss of your PE license ---> branded a traitor to your country thus resulting in the loss of one's ability to be employed at all in this country, or worse yet, loss of citizenship (this has happened).

However, even in the classified programs, besides commercial ones, if one screws up, they get rid of that engineer and could even "blackball" the engineer within the industry.

I do see your point about culpability though. None of the software projects/programs that I have either been responsible engineeer-in-charge or a team member has culpability even though loss of life could happen. You will note that commercial COTS S/W all have legal disclaimers that their S/W is not legally responsible for any business loss/damage due to the use of their product.

But he has education and experience in all those areas. I don't think there is any way you should trust someone to design a safety critical system if all you knew about them was that they passed the PE test. The test is just one stop gap. That is probably why they require PEs in many states for references - if they fudge a reference they concievably put their own license at risk.

Again, my "beef" with NCEES. Basically they are stating that engineers in exempt industries that are willing to serve as references are not risking their reputation since they are not licensed PEs. I beg to differ and probably these engineers would too, since their reputation is on-the-line and could detrimentally affect their employment at their company or within their industry. Though one of the other forum commentators may be seen as arrogant, the person is correct; exempt industries (e.g., GM, NASA) rely on an engineer's reputation based on "word-of-mouth" from other engineers within the same company, engineers that have dealt with that person in professional organizations, and engineers from other companies or clients that have worked with that engineer.

After some deep thought, the concern that probably NCEES has here is that they have no way to "track" the supervisory engineers that are providing references on a PE candidate. Since these supervisory references have no PE license, unless NCEES outlay significant resources ($$$) for a DB on all engineers, they have no way of verifying these references.

No, I DO NOT LIKE taking tests. Like I've previously stated, a PE is required for State/County/Municipal employment as an engineer. For some locales, government unfortunately, is the largest employer of engineers (sometimes disproportionately). However, there has to be some mechanism for NCEES and thus these industries, to allow experienced engineers from exempt industries to obtain their PE licenses (cause for my frustration and despondency). Yes, I do have both EE and ME experience in my years of working in exempt industries (seems like they provide their employees a broader range of experiences when one first come out of college, regardless of level (i.e., BS, MS)). However, none of the experienced EEs or MEs when I started in Silicon Valley had even heard of a PE; none of them had one even though they were experts in their field or had patents for products that are used in some cases, life-critical apps.

 

[benbo]

Like I've previously stated, a PE is required for State/County/Municipal employment as an engineer. For some locales, government unfortunately, is the largest employer of engineers (sometimes disproportionately).

Sigh. I still don't understand what you are doing. Even if you pass the exam and get licensed in another state you will not be able to get licensed in Hawaii. So unless you are planning to move you will not be able to use the license. That's my main point.

Additionally, I don't think it is NCEES who is causing you problems. I believe your problem is with the state of Hawaii. My state (California) allows references from non-PEs in exempt industries.

As far as ALL of the other stuff - I worked for Hughes Aircraft for 12 years, and in Silicon Valley for 6. I've had security clearances. So you don't need to explain all that to me.

I assumed you liked taking the exams because you get absolutely no benefit from taking all three depth modules. It is the same license. But I guess you have your reasons. It seems like there would be easier and less expensive ways to diagnose your weak areas.

 

[KnowledgeAcquirer]

Sigh. I still don't understand what you are doing. Even if you pass the exam and get licensed in another state you will not be able to get licensed in Hawaii. So unless you are planning to move you will not be able to use the license. That's my main point.
Additionally, I don't think it is NCEES who is causing you problems. I believe your problem is with the state of Hawaii. My state (California) allows references from non-PEs in exempt industries.

As far as ALL of the other stuff - I worked for Hughes Aircraft for 12 years, and in Silicon Valley for 6. I've had security clearances. So you don't need to explain all that to me.

I assumed you liked taking the exams because you get absolutely no benefit from taking all three depth modules. It is the same license. But I guess you have your reasons. It seems like there would be easier and less expensive ways to diagnose your weak areas.

Since you've worked at Hughes and in Silicon Valley you understand all of "that stuff". However, other readers of the forum may not have the background and experience that you share with me. I believe the purpose of this and all of the forums are for everyone's benefit, regardless of background.

The "crying need" seems to be for licensed PEs in State government rather than those who've passed the FE.

It would be nice to take the test in HI since I currently reside here, but reality is that all of my references would be in CA, TN, IL, VA, and TX. I suppose if I dug enough I could track additional references in other states (e.g., MI, NY).

My "take" is that if one is prepared for all three depth modules, then the "breadth" morning exam would be much easier. However, starting with April 2009, all of this is moot since the entire exam would be in a specific depth area.

 

[KnowledgeAcquirer]

Sigh. I still don't understand what you are doing. Even if you pass the exam and get licensed in another state you will not be able to get licensed in Hawaii. So unless you are planning to move you will not be able to use the license. That's my main point.
Additionally, I don't think it is NCEES who is causing you problems. I believe your problem is with the state of Hawaii. My state (California) allows references from non-PEs in exempt industries.

As far as ALL of the other stuff - I worked for Hughes Aircraft for 12 years, and in Silicon Valley for 6. I've had security clearances. So you don't need to explain all that to me.

I assumed you liked taking the exams because you get absolutely no benefit from taking all three depth modules. It is the same license. But I guess you have your reasons. It seems like there would be easier and less expensive ways to diagnose your weak areas.

Since you've worked at Hughes and in Silicon Valley you understand all of "that stuff". However, other readers of the forum may not have the background and experience that you share with me. I believe the purpose of this and all of the forums are for everyone's benefit, regardless of background.

The "crying need" seems to be for licensed PEs in State government rather than those who've passed the FE.

It would be nice to take the test in HI since I currently reside here, but reality is that all of my references would be in CA, TN, IL, VA, and TX. I suppose if I dug enough I could track additional references in other states (e.g., MI, NY).

My "take" is that if one is prepared for all three depth modules, then the "breadth" morning exam would be much easier. However, starting with April 2009, all of this is moot since the entire exam would be in a specific depth area.