I think this is worth discussing

[JPMORGN11]

Here's a topic I haven't seen too much about on here but I think it's worth a look. I have some family members and a lot of close friends that are doctors, lawyers, pharmacists, etc.

By comparison, passing the Engineering Boards (FE and PE) seems to be much much more difficult than passing various competancy exams in these other professions. At least as far as the pass rates are concerned.

I brought this up with my brother who happens to be a doctor. Now, don't get me wrong - he is a very intelligent person, but to his recollection he couldn't think of anyone he knew that failed any of their various tests along the way. This is out of dozens of docs that he went to Med School with and did his various interships and residencies with.

I truly don't understand why our pass rates are as low as they currently are. Many of our exams hover around the 50% mark.

Quite honestly, I think if you were deemed elegible to even sit for these exams you're probably at a competancy level sufficient to practice engineering.

Just my thoughts.

 

[EdinNO]

I guess the doctors are better educated than we are! Just kidding.

I hate to say it, but I am in a way glad that its not an easy thing to get the PE license. If there were too many of us, the value would go down.

I do think that somehow, someway, perhaps through organizations such as NSPE or other engineering societies, we HAVE to finid a way to elevate our status and increase our value to the public, thereby bringing higher wages and benefits our way.

Ed

 

[benbo]

I don't know about the other exams, but here in California, lots of people fail the bar exam and have to take it multiple times. My mother passed first time and it was considered a great accomplishment. Also, although I certainly thought the PE exam was tough, and I studied my butt off and barely passed, I have looked at some practice PE exams from the pre multiple choice era and it really looked impossible back then. At least in the electrical discipline. But you did get partial credit then.

 

[cdhanners]

Well you sort of hit on a sore subject with me there. We do seem to have a more difficult time passing our tests, maybe it is bacause they are more difficult, it takes us 8 or more years to get to that point in our carear where we can take the test. What I want to know is why we think so little of ourselves that we except medeoker pay. The most recent edition of Civil Engineering has a salary survey, the average new PE makes less that $60k. This is obserd!! Why can't we all get together and make ourselves worth more. Come on guys/gals everyother professional can do it why can't we.

Any thoughts?

Me, I work for an older P.E. in a structural consulting firm, there is only two of us in the office. My boss believes the same thing I do, and everytime we have the opertunity we try to convience others of this. I do very well, and so does my boss, but I believe we both produce a first class, quality, and effecent design/report. I make what some PE's with 10 years experience make.

Come on guys/gals what gives?

P.S. After this reply the topic should proably be moved!

 

[Road Guy]

I was actually thinking the same thing (My bro-in law and his wife are both Doctors) His wife is from Croatia, she got her medical degree in Italy and passed easliy (she said) her medical boards over here.

I think part of the problem is the "assembly line" mentaility of engineering firms, especially the larger ones. I know in Civil at least, you may only really "work" in one subject, drainage, road design, traffic engineering, sanitary sewer, etc.

A friend of mine who is a traffic engineer, has never laid out a horizontal or vertical curve, done a Super-Elevation calculation, etc in the 8 years since he graduated. all he has done is signing & marking plans, and traffic signal plans. He hasnt used "mannings equation" since college, He is extremely worried about the exam because his experience is limited to basically one subject.

I think the breaking down of the PM Sessison on some test has surely helped some. I think its a combinatioin of the test and the way companies "pidgeon hole" us doing one thing, because its more profitable that way. If you want to get "broader" expereince you have to either change jobs, or work for a small firm that lest you do more.

I worked for a crappy small firm my 1st year out of college, but I did everything under the civil category (minus structural)...

 

[EdinNO]

I feel that way too cdhanners.

I think its a lot of things.

I think something needs to be done. Could there be a union type thing? Of course, I don't know where the PE laws and rules stand on unions. I think they are generally a bad thing. Perhaps it all needs to center around engineering society involvement, etc...

Ed

 

[cement]

what we are tested on, at least in civil and i imagine in other diciplines, is judgement. we are asked for the best answer in some cases where there may be more than one correct answer. is this unique to our profession?

 

[cdhanners]

Now don't get me wrong everyone, I do think some people are only worth what they are getting paid, but several people out there are much more valuable. They have the ability to produce a creative project resulting in extreamly economical construction costs, and bottom line profits for someone else. I do believe if we are to change anything at all it will have to happen at the society level.

One of the other problems I have observed with engineers is there reluctence to take a chance and stand up for what they believe. Lets face it alot of engineers were the kids in school who were picked on for being smart, and an outcast. There self esteem was crushed in there teen years. We need to stand up and fight.

I don't give a crap if some Arch. is paying me more than he is making. He is the one setting his rate. If he is working 80 hrs. a week to keep up with things, his rate is too low. Its pretty simple, supply and demand. I am an E.I., hope to be a P.E. by the end of the month. My billing rate is $135/hr. My bosses rate is $200/hr. We have three months of work witing to be completed, the the phone is still ringing. If you are worth it people will pay, but you have to know you are worth it, and have the courage to try to make a change.

 

[EdinNO]

cd,

That's what I'm talking about!!

Good rate! :thumbsup:

What state? What discipline? What industry? Are you hiring- I have a PE?

 

[cdhanners]

NC (Clients all up and down east coast)/Structural/Large residence/Small Commercial/No not yet.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

By comparison, passing the Engineering Boards (FE and PE) seems to be much much more difficult than passing various competancy exams in these other professions. At least as far as the pass rates are concerned.

I think we are likely to think the grass is greener on the other side of the fence as far as this goes. You know what you put yourself through. All the time and effort and money invested into it.

When you see a licensed member of another profession, all you know is that person passed an exam of some sort and it was probably pretty tough.

I do think the engineering boards are very difficult. I'm not trying make it sound otherwise. I don't know enough about other professions to know which ones rank as hard as this one or harder.

There are definitely some easier to pass exams out there though! I got a friend who is trying to become a CPA. The exam is computerized, so they can study until they are almost ready then register for a date of their choosing. They can also take the exam in modules. There are 4 parts they can take one at a time.

Imagine studying for the morning session, then coming back in a couple months when you felt ready for the afternoon. :whatever:

 

[EdinNO]

JFK Jr took the bar exam how many times? I think 5 or more? But then again, he was probably distracted. I would be too if I was independently wealthy!

Ed

 

[Road Guy]

does the cpa require the exeperience after graduating thing?

I think that gets a lot of people, being out of school a few years, getting out of the habit of studying, having a kid or two. makes study time difficult

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

^And porking Marilyn Monroe.

 

[Road Guy]

yeah baby...

 

[cement]

^And porking Marilyn Monroe.

that was his old man. he would have needed a shovel to do that. now where is that pukey smiley?

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

Hahaha, I didn't read the Jr. part the first time.

Whoops. :???:

 

[NSEARCH]

I think that gets a lot of people, being out of school a few years, getting out of the habit of studying, having a kid or two. makes study time difficult

I'm with Road Guy on that assumption.....after 4 years of not putting in QUALITY hours of studying EACH day, it's tough to sit down most likely BY YOURSELF, open up the CERM, and start plugging away. I remember the first time I did that I made it about an hour before I was like screw this sh!t and hung it up. Add family AND job into the equation and it's even tougher.

 

[DrFranz]

I believe that one of the problems is in the way that most schools teach in the US. They aim to give A's and B's regardless of the level... many times I have been called by the department head because there weren't any A's in my classes... (they said "students get discouraged and drop out... which means less $$ for them) and the student's want to know what formula to use and plug numbers away, while engineering means understanding the nature of the problem and the concept before they even attempt to take a stab at the problem. Bottom line, if you understand the concepts, the concepts will stay with you for ever and you wouldn't need to solve a "ton" of exercises for each topic or memorize formulas.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

I'd agree with that. And I really think that was one of the bigest differences between undergrad and grad school.

When I was an undergrad, the emphasis was more: Ok, here's a problem statement. If you can remember the formula we discussed in class, you can just plug the variables into place and solve it and get the right answer. It was an exercise in memorization.

Grad school was more like: Here's a problem. Come up with a constructive way to solve it. Use your textbook all you want to look stuff up, but there's no explicit solution in there. I had profs that would give me 8.5 or 9 points on a 10 point problem even if most of my answers were wrong due to math errors, provided I did the problem in a logical manner and my assumptions, even if flawed, were reasonable.