Home Improvement/Repair Questions
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matt267 PE
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that sounds dangerous.
Maybe a neutral connection somewhere that bad: https://www.reddit.com/r/HomeImprovement/comments/1reczo/strange_hotground_reverse_issue/
Road Guy
Well-known member
What’s even weirder to me is that our master bath shares a GFI with the other upstairs bathroom (I didn’t even think that was allowed) those outlets in the other bathroom work fine.
House is around 10 years old and I was going to just replace the outlets this weekend - there isn’t a GFI in our actual bathroom. But we do have some sort of GFI built into the circuit panels where the breaker is.
Maybe they were wired like this all along and it just finally gave out. Just odd to me that it would be wired incorrectly for so long and just start acting up. I went around checking all the other outlets in the house and several have some issue.. not sure what the point in having “building inspectors” or home inspections done to be honest..
House is around 10 years old and I was going to just replace the outlets this weekend - there isn’t a GFI in our actual bathroom. But we do have some sort of GFI built into the circuit panels where the breaker is.
Maybe they were wired like this all along and it just finally gave out. Just odd to me that it would be wired incorrectly for so long and just start acting up. I went around checking all the other outlets in the house and several have some issue.. not sure what the point in having “building inspectors” or home inspections done to be honest..
No surprised. Our downstairs kitchen and half bath shares a GFI with the upstairs bathroom. Nothing like trying to figure out that your wife's hair dryer is the reason your coffee pot won't turn on.
Hot and ground swapped is a very bad thing, you're basically energizing the conductor that's supposed to keep you from getting electrocuted. I can't see how anything would work correctly like this, though, because there's generally no path for current to flow between the hot and ground. If the tester is working correctly I'd try to get this fixed ASAP.
Road Guy
Well-known member
I took all of these apart and it appeared to be wired correctly, but the builder had tried to put so many wires in one wiring nut that some had become loose and I believe that's all that it was. I went ahead and replaced the outlets and got the correct size wire nut and it appeared to be working. So I think it was just the hot wire falling out the nut and grazing against the ground..
It was also nice of the builder to let the Painter spray paint right into all of the electrical junctions boxes..
It was also nice of the builder to let the Painter spray paint right into all of the electrical junctions boxes..
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
The GFI in the basement was the reason why the power would die in the garage. It was just a bad outlet and we had to replace it despite it being only a year old.
jeb6294
Well-known member
Short version: How hard do you suppose it would be to replace about 15-ft of 4-in cast iron sewer lateral with 4-in PVC DIY style? Depth is no more than about 3-ft and would have to tunnel about 3-ft under the edge of a front concrete patio to connect.
The sanitary connection to the house is screwed. Wife called me at work Thursday afternoon to tell me the utility tub in the laundry room wasn't draining...of course it had to be right before Veteran's Day weekend because stuff like this always happens when everyone is closed. By the time I got home the sink was empty, but checked the trap on the sink hoping it was just lint/dog hair since the washing machine drains to the tub. Trap was fine so next thought is that it's something down the line and it's backing up into the house since the utility tub is the lowest thing in the house. The 4" cast line is suspended along the basement wall and then drops into the 4" cast line that actually leaves through the basement wall. Where it tee's into the line there's a cleanout on the end of the pipe so I veerrryyyy carefully took the cap off the cleanout. Nothing in the line, but when I looked, the line just outside the hose is no longer connected and is about 2-inches higher than the house line. We are at the bottom of the street and the yard keeps sloping on past the house, so it looks like the house has settled some over the last 50 years and pulled the sewer connection out of whack.
Was able to get someone out to look at it on Monday. He was able to run a camera through so his first thought was that there was a clog but the head pressure cleared it out. Pipe connection is definitely bad. He used the locator to find where the connection is off and where the cast pipe looks like it is back to being in good shape. I didn't measure, but it looks like it is no more than 10-15 feet of pipe and the locator showed the depth as 2'-4" at the first 90 and 2'-10" where the good pipe was. He couldn't get a depth where the break was under the patio. His quote to fix it was ~$5,500. Seems like an awful lot for what, when you get down to it, seems like it shouldn't be terribly difficult.
The sanitary connection to the house is screwed. Wife called me at work Thursday afternoon to tell me the utility tub in the laundry room wasn't draining...of course it had to be right before Veteran's Day weekend because stuff like this always happens when everyone is closed. By the time I got home the sink was empty, but checked the trap on the sink hoping it was just lint/dog hair since the washing machine drains to the tub. Trap was fine so next thought is that it's something down the line and it's backing up into the house since the utility tub is the lowest thing in the house. The 4" cast line is suspended along the basement wall and then drops into the 4" cast line that actually leaves through the basement wall. Where it tee's into the line there's a cleanout on the end of the pipe so I veerrryyyy carefully took the cap off the cleanout. Nothing in the line, but when I looked, the line just outside the hose is no longer connected and is about 2-inches higher than the house line. We are at the bottom of the street and the yard keeps sloping on past the house, so it looks like the house has settled some over the last 50 years and pulled the sewer connection out of whack.
Was able to get someone out to look at it on Monday. He was able to run a camera through so his first thought was that there was a clog but the head pressure cleared it out. Pipe connection is definitely bad. He used the locator to find where the connection is off and where the cast pipe looks like it is back to being in good shape. I didn't measure, but it looks like it is no more than 10-15 feet of pipe and the locator showed the depth as 2'-4" at the first 90 and 2'-10" where the good pipe was. He couldn't get a depth where the break was under the patio. His quote to fix it was ~$5,500. Seems like an awful lot for what, when you get down to it, seems like it shouldn't be terribly difficult.
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It still ends up being a big job time-wise if you're doing it on your own. You'll pay for utilities to be marked and rental of the excavating equipment, and then the temporary shoring. Going three feet under the patio may very well end up with some damage. I guess it depends just how much time you have to fart around with it.
so is the break under the patio? Does hos $5500 estimate include a new concrete patio area?
I'd think the best way to approach it is to sawcut the concrete patio to gain access to the pipe. Install a new section with flexible couplings and to reestablish grade. Back fill and pour a new patio section.
Difficult? not really but not a small job for the DIYer IMHO. $5500 sounds reasonable and get a guarantee about grade/settlement/cracking of the patio as well as that the pipe does have a high point that will slope back towards the house from the repair area.
I'd think the best way to approach it is to sawcut the concrete patio to gain access to the pipe. Install a new section with flexible couplings and to reestablish grade. Back fill and pour a new patio section.
Difficult? not really but not a small job for the DIYer IMHO. $5500 sounds reasonable and get a guarantee about grade/settlement/cracking of the patio as well as that the pipe does have a high point that will slope back towards the house from the repair area.
Jbone27 PE
PE
I could see getting to the pipe under the patio not being to terrible but I am not sure how you would get any compaction when backfilling it. May look at using one of the residential leveling jacks to support that section of concrete and just leave it in place. I think they are fairly cheap.
jeb6294
Well-known member
The break is under the patio, but $5,500 was them going under the patio and staying within the confines of the driveway/sidewalk, so no concrete work. He put flags at the first 90 and where the cast gets better and he wrote the depth he was getting. That's where the 2'-4" and 2'-10" came from.
Considering the shallow depth and short run, it almost seems do-able with a shovel. We just planted a little tree in that bed which I would want to try and transplant to at least try and save it. Right there, a good bit of your digging is done. The place up the street from work rents a mini-excavator for $180/day.
In the picture I did, the top of the concrete patio is lines up with the top of the concrete foundation where it butts up to the side of the garage so ideally, the patio should be pinned to the concrete along the back and side. I figured the biggest problem would be digging it out so there was enough room to get under there and make the actual connection. The whole excavated area would be pea gravel or sand under the new pipe anyway, what if I went back in with sand or pea gravel under the patio?
Considering the shallow depth and short run, it almost seems do-able with a shovel. We just planted a little tree in that bed which I would want to try and transplant to at least try and save it. Right there, a good bit of your digging is done. The place up the street from work rents a mini-excavator for $180/day.
In the picture I did, the top of the concrete patio is lines up with the top of the concrete foundation where it butts up to the side of the garage so ideally, the patio should be pinned to the concrete along the back and side. I figured the biggest problem would be digging it out so there was enough room to get under there and make the actual connection. The whole excavated area would be pea gravel or sand under the new pipe anyway, what if I went back in with sand or pea gravel under the patio?
^Using the flexible couplings as suggested would allow you to use PVC in between cast iron sections. Just be sure the inside diameter is the same - if you create any sort of lip, that's where the **** will literally start to stick (well, the toilet paper etc.) I'd agree it seems like something that you could do on your own with shovels and some simple shoring to keep the sidewalk good, but I personally am not sure I'd be up for it ($5,500 might sway me, though). Maybe get a second quote?
As far as getting deep enough to get under the sidewalk to make the connection, you could just cut off the iron pipe at both sides of the patio so you're not reaching under - just slide the new section in. Getting decent compaction will be trouble, though. Gravel is probably the best bet to replace the fill under the patio, unless you can do flowable fill (extra lean concrete) but that's probably not a good idea (just in case your connections cause problems again)
Dexman PE PMP
Internationally PMP'n his PE-ness
Getting to the depth of 2-10 is just to the top of the pipe. You'll still need to dig around the sides to the invert level (another 4") and a couple more inches down so you can re-establish the proper grade of the pipe bedding (typically pea gravel). Assuming a 3' deep by 3' wide trench, that's quickly approaching 10 tons of dirt (about a dump-truck load). You'd need a mini-excavator if you cherish your lower back and want to get it done quickly. Well worth that $180/day for the excavator. The excavator can get you to the top of the pipe, you'll still need to hand-dig along the sides unless you want to make the trench wider.
As dleg said, it's not difficult. Just labor intensive. I wouldn't do it by myself, even with a mini excavator. If you have 2-3 friends willing to help, then you can make a long weekend out of it.
The only issue with the flexible connectors is that it makes the pipe more prone to settlement. If the base isn't compacted properly, the PVC will settle and cause that flexible joint to become a trap of sorts and lead to pipe clogs. With rigid connections, the pipe can help hold itself up and reduce the effects of the sagging/settlement.
As dleg said, it's not difficult. Just labor intensive. I wouldn't do it by myself, even with a mini excavator. If you have 2-3 friends willing to help, then you can make a long weekend out of it.
The only issue with the flexible connectors is that it makes the pipe more prone to settlement. If the base isn't compacted properly, the PVC will settle and cause that flexible joint to become a trap of sorts and lead to pipe clogs. With rigid connections, the pipe can help hold itself up and reduce the effects of the sagging/settlement.
Road Guy
Well-known member
While I am normally a fix it yourself type person, I would maybe just shop that price around other plumbers.
You could probably also do the concrete cutting and removal and replacement yourself and save a decent amount and let them deal with just the actual pipe?
You could probably also do the concrete cutting and removal and replacement yourself and save a decent amount and let them deal with just the actual pipe?
You're not going to dig to the top of the pipe with an excavator if you're working under an existing concrete slab with 2 ft of clearance. Flowfill is a good option for backfil and you can get it formulated with low strength so it can be excavated should that be necessary in the future.
I'm still of the opinion that the easiest approach is to cut the slab above, repair the pipe and then pour a new concrete slab section.
I'm still of the opinion that the easiest approach is to cut the slab above, repair the pipe and then pour a new concrete slab section.
