Future PE Exams may be closed book!

[Dleg]

NCEES is discussing the option of making the PE exam closed-book. From NSPE:

Closing the Book on the PE Exam?
Future candidates for the Principles and Practice of Engineering Exam may have to rely on fewer resources during testing, as exam administrators explore implementing a closed-book testing policy.

Jerry Carter, executive director of the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying, says that concerns over exam security may lead the organization to change its policy.

While the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam is a closed-book exam with the exception of some NCEES-provided references, PE exam takers can use unlimited references, as long as the references are bound. It has become common for candidates to show up for the exam with wagons, push carts, and suitcases of reference materials. "The problem is that if they bring in this much material, you don't know what information they may be taking from the exam away in that reference material," Carter says. "It's an obvious threat."

NCEES is surveying examinees about how many reference books they brought into the testing site and how many of these references were actually used. "In reality, for many of the discipline exams, they just need a few reference books," Carter says.

NCEES's Committee on Examinations for Professional Engineers, chaired by George Roman, P.E., will be reviewing the current policy in order to address issues surrounding security concerns and computer-based testing. The taskforce will be making recommendations about transitioning PE exams to computer-based testing at NCEES's next annual meeting.

Carter anticipates that the council could approve a course of action to transition to computer-based testing. "We need to get some controls in place to better police the exam site, and by doing so it helps to facilitate the process if we decide to move to computer-based testing," he says.

I disagree with this. Yes, there may be security problems. But hey, that's what NCEES gets the big bucks to solve, right? Speaking for my branch of engineering, I feel that one of the most valuable outcomes of studying for and passing the PE exam is the emphasis it places on YOU building and learning your reference library. IMHO, this is extremely beneficial for both the individual engineer and the public at large.

I wonder if shifting to something more like the FE exam would create engineers who leave their textbooks inside their boxes after college, and keep nothing more than a print out of the NCEES PE reference booklet with them at work. I don't care how good the reference booklet is, it can't make up for the three shelves of references I use now at work, and used on the PE exam. I had many before the exam, but I bought several as a result of studying for the exam, which I now use routinely, and I think the process made a better engineer out of me.

Discuss. Maybe NCEES is listening - maybe your opinions matter. :dunno:

 

[Dark Knight]

I do also disagree but what you and I think is irrelevant. NCEES will do as they want and that is the bottom line. It has been, it is and will always be like that. First the test format, then the calculators, then the format again. Now this. They are masters and commanders, the ultimate authority and the ultimate power. No one oversees what they do so they respond to no one. Their game, their rules.

Nothing else.

 

[rppearso]

When I was in the PE this past oct the proctors watched us like hawks, they were not over bearing to make us nervous or anything but when they picked up the exams they made sure everything was there, from my experience it woudl be tough for someone to remove exam material. I guess you could copy stuff down in your references from the test but I barely had time to complete the exam let alone do something like that. You have to remember that the people sitting for this exam have to have a degree, EIT, 4 years varified work experience just to sit why would they mess around with trying to copy stuff down that would sacrafice time to actually answering the questions.

 

[EM_PS]

i think this subject was broached earlier ... http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=11584

(i was surprised at lack of activity on this topic truthfully)

Its laughable to believe the exams could realisitically be made closed book with some kind of discipline specific be-all / end-all reference manual being all you would need. I also agree that having a mini-library of texts & references that youre intimately familiar with is a great side benefit once youre done.

 

[Dleg]

^Sorry EM. I looked down below but not far enough to see that you had already posted on this.

Oh well. My post is better anyway. :wtlw:

 

[wilheldp_PE]

You have to remember that the people sitting for this exam have to have a degree, EIT, 4 years varified work experience just to sit why would they mess around with trying to copy stuff down that would sacrafice time to actually answering the questions.

Maybe they are looking for a fatty paycheck from selling active test materials.

In fact, test material was stolen by an examinee in Puerto Rico in OCT06. NCEES just won a $1 Million lawsuit against them to cover the costs of remaking the test to avoid re-using compromised questions.

 

[Dleg]

^This is true. Plus, there are people who would take the exam purely to find out what questions are on it, for others to use in cheating later on. From what I remember, NCEES has found people with spy-type cameras and such attempting to record the exam.

But as I said before, that's NCEES's job. The vast majority of us (probably to the order of 99.9999%$) are legitimate engineers who value our licenses too much to even consider helping a competitor get theirs via cheating. If it gets to the point that exam takers are no longer allowed to use their references, then I am not sure we are headed in the right direction. "The terrorists have won" in other words.

 

[Flyer_PE]

^To me, integrity is an integral part of being a PE. I agree with your 99.9999% figure but it's not so much avoiding helping the competition, it's that if I earned it honestly, I expect anybody else with a stamp to have done the same thing. The parallel for me is a pilot's license. Anybody with a pilot certificate has to have demonstrated their ability to a set performance standard. If they can't clear the bar, I don't want to be sharing the sky with them.

 

[Dleg]

I agree with you. I should have said that was only one of many reasons a "real" PE wouldn't knowingly help someone cheat their way into a license.

 

[Road Guy]

I hope they keep it open book, plus think of all the book publishers that would go out of business..

 

[Capt Worley PE]

Man, I'd have hated taking that thing closed book. I don't think that's a good decison at all.

 

[Dark Knight]

If the Gods at the Olympus make the test a closed book thing it is my guess they will have to modify it. The degree of difficulty will change and I would think it is going to be a plug and play test. They give you all the formulas you might need and you go from there, very similar to the EIT/FE/whatever is named now test.

If this format increases the number of repeaters I guess they will keep it. If people start to ace it and the number of repeat applications drops, will go back to the actual format. Personally I do not think it is a security issue but a number$$$$ i$$ue.

 

[EM_PS]

is this level of security insecurity present with the bar exam? CPA exam? 'whatever profession' exam? just curious if this really is an ncees paranoia thing or if for some reason engineering has much more nefarious test takers or something

 

[humner]

Sounds like they may be trying to make PE license a national one. Would be easier to control.

 

[Mutha PE PS]

The only benefit I see from it becoming closed book and reference supplied is that it would make it easier to incorporate as o a computer based test which could be graded faster and allow candidates to take/retake sooner... But I don't think they are looking to necessarily make anything easier for the consumer.

 

[Dark Knight]

Sounds like they may be trying to make PE license a national one. Would be easier to control.

It is already a National test. Maybe you meant something else.

 

[EM_PS]

^ he meant license being national (rather than state issued) i believe.

 

[Dexman PE]

Maybe if it goes closed book without changing any of the exam questions, we can start demanding $200k fatty raises...

 

[humner]

^ he meant license being national (rather than state issued) i believe.

Exactly, there would be no such thing as a state license, however a level of license to practice at different level ie. structural, seismic.........

 

[Dexman PE]

I'm not opposed to a base-level national license to practice engineering (it's basically what it is now anyways). I understand several states may still prefer additional licensure above and beyond the base (Cali w/ seismic, other states with structural, etc), but they would only need to manage the additional licenses.