Engineers versus Attorneys Practicing Engineering

[Slugger926]

Anyone else want to help back me up in my argument that attorneys should hire engineers to design their processes, and evaluate their evidence.

Here is the link:

Engineer vs Attorneys

The discussion started with Grisham's book, "The Innocent Man". I contend if the DA would have followed engineered processes and quality engineering, he wouldn't have prosecuted the innocent man.

I also contend that the processes the DA's use have not been engineered by licensed engineers, and Oklahoma law states that engineering processes should be done by licensed engineers. Also engineers should also be used for evaluations which include evaluating evidence using math including Modern Algebra (which is logical math used in sentences.)

I am also contending that law firms use illegally engineered processes in order to create more billing hours for their clients.

I am having fun with them, and need some help or backup.

There are three attorneys that visit that board. One is in corporate law in NY (NYPoke). Legelegel does some sort of contract legal work.

CowboyJD is an attorney for the OSBI (Oklahoma state level equivelant of FBI) and was involved with the cleanup work and lawsuits involved with "The Innocent Man". He doesn't like the fact his office may have been breaking engineering laws for many years, and could be wasting tax payer money in their processes and evidence screening.

They just need to cough up the money, and hire engineers.

 

[SuperAlpha]

agreed, however there are also laws regarding ethics for lawyers (and engineers) and we all know how well those are observed....NOT!

 

[SuperAlpha]

My brother worked for a legal billing software company and he told me that many lawyers would call in for tech support. He would tell me stories about how the lawyers use these "special" functions to unethically charge for their time...sometime several hundred hours per day. (partial hours would equal an entire hour, done multiple times per hour (for the same client) equals many hours accumulated PER HOUR!) There were other "special" features as well...

ETA: and don't forget additional associate attorny...conferencees or hand the phone to your assiciates for a partial hour and charge the client for 2 hours for that 30sec phone call

 

[Slugger926]

Also by Oklahoma law, it appears that all professionals should be working under the direction of a licensed engineer within the legally engineered processes.

 

[SuperAlpha]

Texas is similar - ANY engineering done for a client is considered engineering for the public....this includes electronics and software engineering.

 

[Slugger926]

Texas is similar - ANY engineering done for a client is considered engineering for the public....this includes electronics and software engineering.

I think the thing the OSBI attorney is realizing is that since Oklahoma's court processes were not legally engineered, all convictions under those processes could technically be overturned!!!!!

 

[SuperAlpha]

In Texas, engineering your own product or even a custom engineered turn-key product for a client is OKAY. However once you provide the client with plans, designs, schematics, etc then you fall into PUBLIC services.

Looking at a lawfirm, their engineered processes would be pretty much internal so that would not require a P.E., and it is questionable if it is even "engineering." (see below)

The "engineering" process of handling the evidence and the case would fall into public services.

However, I think that using the word engineering is wrong. They are merely designing a report or presentation for their "case." Designing and engineering are close, but NOT exactly the same. You see this word being overused all the time. Look up jobs in monster.com and you will see many "engineering" positions such as "tactical sales strategy engineer."

There are already ethics and fraud laws on the books. These need to be ENFORCED and you will see your desired results without creating any more new laws, etc.

 

[SuperAlpha]

and someone needs to tell that guy that 6sigma has nothing to do with engineering...unless you want to call quality management, "engineering." Can I get a P.E. in QE and does NCEES even offer a test for it?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_Sigma

 

[SuperAlpha]

interesting fact : Texas' law allows non-P.E.s to be expert witnesses in court....

 

[SSmith]

and someone needs to tell that guy that 6sigma has nothing to do with engineering...unless you want to call quality management, "engineering." Can I get a P.E. in QE and does NCEES even offer a test for it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_Sigma

6sigma and Industrial Engineering go hand in hand. And yes, you can get an IE PE.

 

[Slugger926]

Feel free to join me in the fight on the Orangepower.com board!!!!

It is in the Misc. Forum.

Orangepower.com

 

[Slugger926]

Last post over there:

Read this and see where you are working outside the realm of your expertise:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_engineering

Areas covered by Industrial Engineering:

*Operations Research/Optimization Techniques

*Operations Management

*Supply Chain Mgmt & Logistics

Simulation & Stochastic Models

Manufacturing Systems

Engineering Economics

*Corporate Planning

*Human Factors Engineering/Ergonomics

*Productivity Improvement

*Production Planning and Control

Computer Aid Manufacturing

Material Management

*Facilities Design and/or Work Space Design

*Statistical process control|Statistical Process Control or Quality Control

*Time and Motion Study

What is funny is that you guys sure love Industrial Engineers helping out the companies you invest in. You sure love them when you fly between cities. But you guys want to do their work (illegally) when it comes to the legal and court systems.

 

[Slugger926]

They finally conceded. It was 4 on one, and the engineers won at their own game of arguing. The conceded when they figured out they could make a lot more $$$ by using engineered processes by dropping the billiable hour model for their legal processes.

 

[SSmith]

I checked the thread you sent and, to be honest, had no idea what the conversation was about at all. It went from John Grisham to 6sigma and everywhere in between. But Im glad that you were able to represent.

 

[Slugger926]

I checked the thread you sent and, to be honest, had no idea what the conversation was about at all. It went from John Grisham to 6sigma and everywhere in between. But Im glad that you were able to represent.

Well, now it is 3 attorneys and one engineer against one attorney for the OSBI. The OSBI's stake is to defend the DA, the state, and the police officers involved in John Grisham's book. He has started personal attacks rather than sticking to facts and processes which means he is losing the battle.

 

[IlPadrino]

The discussion started with Grisham's book, "The Innocent Man". I contend if the DA would have followed engineered processes and quality engineering, he wouldn't have prosecuted the innocent man.

If nothing else, this thread has gotten me to read the book... I'm about a third of the way done.

 

[PE-ness]

Does anyone know why attorneys wear ties?

 

[testee]

I don't know, why?

 

[PE-ness]

It helps keep the foreskin down!