Do you tithe 10%

[goodal]

Agreed. When I think of church I think of my small 160-180 person congregation in the backwoods of KY. I don't think of The Crystal Cathedral or Joel Osteen in Houston. Works that large are bound to have waste/corruption issues simply due to their size that God is not pleased with.

 

[knight1fox3]

God is not pleased with.

Sorry, I had to....

 

[mudpuppy]

If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.

I think those are bad examples. All of those services are paid for by the citizens that go to that church, which already pay taxes. What the church runs on is a % of those same citizens income. The church doesn't generate income, it operates off of donations. So wouldn't taxing a church's donations be double taxation? Keep in mind I'm an engineer and not an accountant.

Oh and not to mention that MOST churches entire purpose for existing is to give back to the community. So in a very real sense they are "paying their fair share" and more.

No, these are perfect examples. Who says the members of that church are taxpayers in the community where the church is located? When I was a kid we went to a church the next town over. Now I don't go to church at all, why should my taxes subsidize police, fire and infrastructure for a church?

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I admit that 90+% of churches don't need to pay any taxes. They operate on donations to keep the doors open, and any "profit" goes towards charity and community support efforts. The problem is the 10ish% of mega churches that bring in millions/billions of dollars and spend most of that money in recruiting, retaining, and growing the church...not improving the community.

I think churches that make a significant profit should be taxed. Where that line is becomes a gray area that no politician in their right mind would touch because mega churches vote in numbers and as a hive mind. You piss them off, you lose your election. Honest question, since I have no idea, do pastors or other support staff at large churches that earn a salary have to pay taxes on their income? Maybe that is the line....if you have x number of employees, you get taxed at the corporate rate for a company with that many employees.

 

[YMZ PE]

If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.

I think those are bad examples. All of those services are paid for by the citizens that go to that church, which already pay taxes. What the church runs on is a % of those same citizens income. The church doesn't generate income, it operates off of donations. So wouldn't taxing a church's donations be double taxation? Keep in mind I'm an engineer and not an accountant.

Oh and not to mention that MOST churches entire purpose for existing is to give back to the community. So in a very real sense they are "paying their fair share" and more.

No, these are perfect examples. Who says the members of that church are taxpayers in the community where the church is located? When I was a kid we went to a church the next town over. Now I don't go to church at all, why should my taxes subsidize police, fire and infrastructure for a church?

Would you argue the same for nonreligious nonprofit organizations that happen to occupy a physical building, like Habitat for Humanity or Goodwill?

 

[engineergurl]

If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.

I think those are bad examples. All of those services are paid for by the citizens that go to that church, which already pay taxes. What the church runs on is a % of those same citizens income. The church doesn't generate income, it operates off of donations. So wouldn't taxing a church's donations be double taxation? Keep in mind I'm an engineer and not an accountant.

Oh and not to mention that MOST churches entire purpose for existing is to give back to the community. So in a very real sense they are "paying their fair share" and more.

No, these are perfect examples. Who says the members of that church are taxpayers in the community where the church is located? When I was a kid we went to a church the next town over. Now I don't go to church at all, why should my taxes subsidize police, fire and infrastructure for a church?

Do you frequent homeless shelters, food pantries, child advocacy centers? Why should you pay for them to have the same services?

The church I attend (on occasion and infrequently)

-operates a summer day camp so hard working people don't have to pay for daycare during the months schools out

-runs a food pantry for the local community (regardless of membership)

-assists with utility bills for citizens of the local community (regardless of membership)

-participates in large functions with other churches in the larger community to organize volunteers for endeavors that are too large for a small population to take on

-provides scholarships

-provides assistance for community members (regardless of membership) doing their taxes, financial planning etc etc etc

I've seen them assist with burial costs, medical bills that weren't covered by insurance and the list could go on and on.

Our fire department here is volunteer with just a few paid administrative positions. Quite a few of the church members are volunteers at the various stations. Public transportation is very limited, and actually only services part of the county. The infrastructure out here, well we don't have sewer or water, so that leaves roads I guess? Well, the state hasn't paved our road in three years and left it gravel without pavement markings since they milled it up for that long (they do add gravel each spring to the patches that were milled up and fill up the larger pot holes left from the plow trucks) oh and the sheriff's department and the 25 or so EMS employees in the county (not all full time mind you)... but I assume that we would have those services regardless if the churches exist or not, since the citizens here do pay taxes.

When people think "church" I don't think they think of the small country communities. I'm grateful that I have the knowledge that if taxes have to get paid, the members will step up to meet the burden so that the programs won't have to get cut because I think our community rely's on it's churches heavily for what larger cities and towns provide for their citizens.

 

[mudpuppy]

As I stated before, I don't have any issues with the nonprofit activities of a church being tax-free. However, many church buildings are not used primarily for these types of nonprofit activities, and I think shouldn't be exempt from taxes.

 

[engineergurl]

As I stated before, I don't have any issues with the nonprofit activities of a church being tax-free. However, many church buildings are not used primarily for these types of nonprofit activities, and I think shouldn't be exempt from taxes.

such as? and perhaps you wish to edit your statement to "in my experience" because I doubt you have the statistics of what activities go on in the majority of churches through out the country... unless you are aware of a study that has been done and can provide the statistics

 

[goodal]

Mudpuppy, I think I can infer from your posts that your issue is with mega churches and the fact that they do so many "non-church" things without directly paying taxes. I guess I agree to some extent with you that when a church becomes a glorified country club, it has stepped beyond the boundaries of what a tax exempt entity should be doing. I can answer the question about church staff paying taxes. They do BUT they can also opt out of Social Security (like my pastor has) due to a religious exemption or something. I'm not sure on the details of that, but I know for a fact that they all pay their fair share like the rest of us.

 

[Road Guy]

saying all churches are like the money grubbing mega churches is like saying all gay men are also child molesters....

 

[csb]

I like that I found something else that mudpuppy subsidizes.

#thanksmp

 

[mudpuppy]

That's ok, RG subsidizes me riding my bike on the road so we'll call it even.

 

[Road Guy]

I drive the wife's hybrid one day a week to pay less gas tax and therefore pay less into the bike / ped fund...

 

[Lumber Jim]

Honest question, since I have no idea, do pastors or other support staff at large churches that earn a salary have to pay taxes on their income?

The answer to this question is YES, at least for small to medium sized churches. Most are paid at a rate below full time (20 - 35 hours) or are stipend, have minimal benefits, crappy hours (evenings and weekends) and donate many more hours than required.

I'm married to a "support staff member" at a "medium" sized church (large enough to utilize support staff)

 

[Road Guy]

I have some friends who worked their way up from student minster to "top dog preacher" and it didn't really sound all that appealing, pretty low pay, lots of BS, lots of turnover, and oh yeah, churches do fire people also. its really weird listening to some of their stories.. might even make a good tv show..

 

[engineergurl]

I have some friends who worked their way up from student minster to "top dog preacher" and it didn't really sound all that appealing, pretty low pay, lots of BS, lots of turnover, and oh yeah, churches do fire people also. its really weird listening to some of their stories.. might even make a good tv show..

I have actually seen some pretty bad drama play out when a Pastor's views didn't align with some influencial people... it can get nasty and break up a whole congregation

 

[SNAPE/SMOTT PE]

I grew up Catholic but am now Episcopal. While they do pass around a collection plate, they don't hound you for $. I'm still getting the envelopes from the CC even though we called and told them we are no longer Catholic.

At my current church we do something called Sunday's of service where, instead of holding service, everyone picks a project and goes out into the community to work. Everything from feeding the homeless (thank God no arrests yet for doing so), helping build for habitat for humanity, and helping senior citizens with tasks, among other things. There is also a Saturday's of service which is similar. And several other projects throughout the year, such as taking kids from the local boys/girls havens to go shopping for clothes for school (paid for by the church and people in the church). From the first time I attended, I knew I loved this church. They don't just preach what to do....they do it.

 

[Lumber Jim]

 

[Lumber Jim]

As I stated before, I don't have any issues with the nonprofit activities of a church being tax-free. However, many church buildings are not used primarily for these types of nonprofit activities, and I think shouldn't be exempt from taxes.

To beat a dead horse here, if you're not happy enough with just taxing the individuals that attend tax free churches how would you feel about subsidizing churches that would qualify for "welfare" from the government in order to stay afloat? Currently they just close or consolidate with other area churches.

 

[P-E]

No.