Did environmentalism kill science?

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Capt Worley PE

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The latest edition of Popular Science emphasizes science education and what has to be done to return America to the forefront of science education.

It is typical Pop-Sci fluff, but there is a subtext that really makes you think: what happened to hard sciences in schools, and why are kids uninterested in it?

I have a feeling that environmentalism may have played more than a casual, if completely accidental (well, maybe not--that's debatable) role in the downfall of science.

When I was a kid in the seventies, industrial science films were shown on all TV stations before the news, the space program was in full swing (but dying fast), manufacturing was increasing in capacity and efficiency (but it too was getting ready for an abrupt downfall in the US).

Those things are shunned now by environmentalists.

So, I know it's a complex societal problem, but what, if any, role do you think environmentalism played in the death of science education?

 
i dunno if it environmentalism, but more of economic and political issue. school districts trying to find way to cut budgets/teachers. What is the bare minimum we need to teach these kids? What do those test require the kids to know, let tailor to that. The question become which is more important biology/chemistry/physics? around here biology wins out. There is not a chemistry teacher at the local high school.

 
We, as a society, don't like to do hard things any more.

And what is more easy than just to leave the earth in its natural state and don't eff with it?

 
Some pretty good science is at the heart of "real" environmentalism, not the feel good (or bad) stuff that pop culture latches onto.

From my observations, the "real" science teachers who aren't also coaches generally fall into the category of "those who can't do, teach..."

I think that there is a definite funding aspect to it...the divide between what scientists who are teachers make and scientists who practice science has grown, I think. I could teach high school chemistry, earth science, and probably biology as well. I have everything I need except the final certification, but what is my incentive to do so? Crappy income that I can't feed my family with? Or the standardized testing that defines the curriculum that I have to teach that bores students to death?

 
at our highschool there was a mixed bunch of science teachers. those that fell into the those that cant do teach and others that genuinely wanted to teach kids about science. Both my chemistry teachers and my physics teacher were the genuine sort....spending lots of moeny out of their own pockets for experiment supplies and such to make sure they made learning fun even when the pay sucked. the biology teacher was not, he coached.

 
We, as a society, don't like to do hard things any more.


Every time someone posts this picture:

algebra.jpg


I cringe. I think we are, as we have been for years now, a society who thinks math is hard, so just stay away from it. How do we solve science problems when students view math as something to survive, rather than really learn?

 
Some pretty good science is at the heart of "real" environmentalism, not the feel good (or bad) stuff that pop culture latches onto.


I get your point, the feel good unicorn phart stuff is the brand driving this show. Specifically because the 'science is hard so just believe what you are told' aspect.

When I was a kid, real environmental scientists were studying terraforming Mars, trying to reverse deserts, and looking at lichen/algae as food sources.

That was productive and useful. They seem to be obstructionists, more than anything, these days.

 
Some pretty good science is at the heart of "real" environmentalism, not the feel good (or bad) stuff that pop culture latches onto.


I get your point, the feel good unicorn phart stuff is the brand driving this show. Specifically because the 'science is hard so just believe what you are told' aspect.

When I was a kid, real environmental scientists were studying terraforming Mars, trying to reverse deserts, and looking at lichen/algae as food sources.

That was productive and useful. They seem to be obstructionists, more than anything, these days.


QFT

I think the problem is real scientists are not heard from anymore. You only see celebrities spouting off about somethings that's about the destroy/save the world.

 
The science is still really happening... it's just not what the media considers newsworthy. I actually think that there has been a gap closed and that contributes to it. In the "old" days, you had people graduate from high school (and some that didn't) and there were distinct career paths that were taken, some involved a higher education, and some didn't. With nearly everyone going to college now days and having a core curicullim that includes general classes in all the subjects (which used to be done at the high school level), everyone has passed some sort of high learning in the science field.... making it not as "special"... ask any non-science/math major to explain box and whisker plots and many of them will look at you like you've grown a second or third head.

With all that said, I continue to preach on here that environmentalists are not what the media defines them as. You have two different lines of thinking in the field. The ultimate and total preservationalists versus the environmental stewards and managers, and in my opinion the latter being the more complicated of the two. It is easier to tell someone they can't do something because it will be detrimental to the environmental, and much harder to establish alternatives, tolerance limits and manage ecosystems to thrive while not impacting forward human progress. The first you just have to show the impacts and reasoning why not to do something....

...the second you actually have to understand the functionality of the ecosystem, determine the exact tolerance limits prior to the human activity starting a chain reaction and becoming destructive to a whole ecosystem, you also need to know if the ecosystem is a unique situation that you can wipe out by the littlest mis-calculation or if it is a common ecosystem with more resources to help you heal it if impacts become too great and remediation is needed.

In order to do all that, you need to understand the physics, astronomy, chemistry, hydrology, geology, genetics, micro-biology, the various macro-biologies, the general ecological functions and interactions as well as the micro-ecological functions and interactions of any specific area that you are trying to manage, mitigate, preserve, or rehabilitate.... you also need to be able to understand the impacts of all your studies to the human popluation, which IS part of any ecosystem and is often the part that gets left out by many of the main stream media propagated environmentalists.

When I was a kid in the seventies, industrial science films were shown on all TV stations before the news, the space program was in full swing (but dying fast), manufacturing was increasing in capacity and efficiency (but it too was getting ready for an abrupt downfall in the US).

Those things are shunned now by environmentalists.
All of the things you have mentioned aren't acutally shunned, however a true and honest 'environmentalist' (NOT a hippy) simply questions how we can make things even better by creating the additional consideration of sustainability for our surroundings.

I honestly believe that the downward spiral has been created by the increased opportunities for everyone to recieve an education in the science field. Now days, you have to have a MS or PhD in order to establish yourself in the environmental field and we have as a country just delayed scientific learning from high school education until college. Toss in the fact that there are so many BS degree programs in general biology and environmental studies available and no standard for what needs to be taught in order to achive said degrees... you create the need for even high levels of education to be obtained.

Engineering is a field that is very regulated as far as qualifications and requirements, and this just isn't so in many other areas, and the dime store degrees are too abundant now days.... just my :2cents:

 
All of the things you have mentioned aren't acutally shunned, however a true and honest 'environmentalist' (NOT a hippy) simply questions how we can make things even better by creating the additional consideration of sustainability for our surroundings.


1) Sustainability is a false god. Nothing lasts forever. I'm not sure folks even know what that word means any more.

2) In many cases, things like removing wetlands are a huge boost for humanity, both for health reasons, and making use of land once unused. Humanity trumps animals and vegetables in my world.

3) Even when the two can be reconciled, it frequently adds cost with no benefit, other than someone's idea of envirnmentally friendly.

Sadly, the hippie environmentalists have trumped any sort of real discussion in this arena since the seventies. They have a lock on it, from a political and media standpoint.

Edit: remarks are in general, not pointed at you, eg. I do respect your views on the subject more than I do most folks. Even if I disagree.

 
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^^lol... I actually enjoy these kinds of threads usually because most of the time I am arguing with those hippie environmentalists...

you are correct in some sort of sense that sustainability is a false god, because it has been blown out of proportion by media, politics, half a$$ regulations, certificates and ideas of people with no common sense...

no, it DOES not make sense to spend money to reduce light pollution on a construction project in the middle of downtown Chicago because... ummm, well, that project really isn't going to make a difference in any way what-so-ever... yet in order to earn some LEED points, projects get designed with things like that in there and then the people with common sense just shake their head and justifiably complain... take that same project though and I'm all for some erosion control measures because if the contractor pays to keep sediment on the site under the pretense that we don't want it in our waters, that same sediment isn't going to start clogging the storm drains that the city has to maintain, and actually may save money in infrastructre maintenance over time (considering compunding impacts throughout the city).

there are way too many general regulations that have to been enforced without consideration to the localized conditions, and what is good for the goose is NOT good for the gander.... but if they weren't put in place across the board, someone would go chain themselves to a tree, initiate a law suit or do something else of a grand scale creating a media frenzy.

I am okay with people not being for the environment if they aren't of the "not in my backyard" attitude. If you are okay that we destroy the wetlands in order to put in walmart 20 miles away, you have to be just as okay with it next door to your house. If you don't care if the factory downstream is exceeding their TMDL of lets say mecury pollution, well then you have to be just okay with it if it were upstream.

Forward progress for humans is not just going to happen... it has to happen. I just don't think it's wrong to expect humans to try to make sure that there are still some of the most basic resources left to use in the future, or take some time to actually take care with our surroundings as we do move forward.

Besides, you aren't going to find a cabin in the woods in ten years, grow veggies for your own family, or eat the fish you caught, unless someone actually pays attention to those things now.

 
I am okay with people not being for the environment if they aren't of the "not in my backyard" attitude. If you are okay that we destroy the wetlands in order to put in walmart 20 miles away, you have to be just as okay with it next door to your house. If you don't care if the factory downstream is exceeding their TMDL of lets say mecury pollution, well then you have to be just okay with it if it were upstream.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the environment, but if the snail darters have to go extinct so a dam can be built to provide power, so be it.

I also think a lot of regs are nothing more than agencies tightening up things to justify their continued existence once their current regs have been met. Power plant emissions are a perfect example. I will note that is a government wide problem with all agencies, though.

 
So, I know it's a complex societal problem, but what, if any, role do you think environmentalism played in the death of science education?


I blame Bill Gates and Steve Jobs....and more lately, Mark Zuckerberg :lamo: . I don't think science ed 'died', and think it just got alot bigger and more varied.

 
So, I know it's a complex societal problem, but what, if any, role do you think environmentalism played in the death of science education?


I blame Bill Gates and Steve Jobs....and more lately, Mark Zuckerberg :lamo: . I don't think science ed 'died', and think it just got alot bigger and more varied.


You been in the schools lately? Science is all but gone and math is something to test for and not much more.

Teaching for two years was a real eye opener about what really goes on in schools.

 
Can't speak of primary education, per se, guess I'll find out in the upcoming years as the mini-EM's make their way thru (past the 2nd grade anyways)...

Regardless I guess I still don't see the tie-in that environmentalism is somehow responsible for waning school curricula...

 
Can't speak of primary education, per se, guess I'll find out in the upcoming years as the mini-EM's make their way thru (past the 2nd grade anyways)...


I was teaching HS level. I don't know when it starts declining, but by HS level, it is pretty much gone, baby, gone.

Regardless I guess I still don't see the tie-in that environmentalism is somehow responsible for waning school curricula...


Unfortunately, curriculum has pretty much come to reflect the PC side of our society. So the BANANAS and watermelon environmentalists have a lot of pull in that sector, even if indirectly. The textbook guys know that their audience, school administrators who make curriculum decisions, not the kids, are uber PC, so the curricula and textbooks reflect that.

 
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the environment, but if the snail darters have to go extinct so a dam can be built to provide power, so be it.

I also think a lot of regs are nothing more than agencies tightening up things to justify their continued existence once their current regs have been met. Power plant emissions are a perfect example. I will note that is a government wide problem with all agencies, though.


I don't disagree with your second statement... however... I still think we need to understand the purpose of the snail darters before we just allow them to go extinct what if they have an enzyme that cures cancer and we kill them off?!? Think kudzu meets north america and how successful that was... (gee thanks Mrs. First Lady for impacting our future because it looked so great in Asia)

Unfortunately, curriculum has pretty much come to reflect the PC side of our society. So the BANANAS and watermelon environmentalists have a lot of pull in that sector, even if indirectly. The textbook guys know that their audience, school administrators who make curriculum decisions, not the kids, are uber PC, so the curricula and textbooks reflect that.


I like my bananas stuffed with chocolate chips, mini marshmallows and then wrapped in tin foil and thrown in a camp filre.... you can infuse the watermelon with some vodka before you serve it up, thank you very much....

WITH THAT SAID... I think being PC is more a product of special interest groups and not specificly the banana and watermelon environmentalists... it has more to do with people being less willing to state their opinion for fear of offending someone than anything to do with the environment.... however while people are striving to be politically correct because they don't want to get sued, while they become more sensitive to others feelings and while they work on their tolerence levels... the roles are just reversing. Go listen to 'Same Love'.... it has an awesome message... but then wait... the lyrics say "the right wing conservatives think it's a decision"....last time i checked the purpose in the song was to point out we are what we are and we need to accept every one for how they are... but APPARENTLY because I'm a right wing conservative... that is what I believe.... bull hockey.

To prevent this from getting reclassified under the political thread... (although it may end up there if anyone continues it)... I will say... as a country, we really need to get politics out our crap. The one thing I have to give to the hippies is they did what they want, and maybe that is why they have so much power. Meanwhile, everyone else is scared to offend, get sued or feels guilty for disagreeing with someone because disagreeing with them may be seen as wrong, intolerent or something equally negative.... why do we all like those movies that AREN'T PC?!? is it because they are willing to say what most people are thinking?

Politics suck... Hippies suck... I'm going to go play some John Denver and have another drink...

 
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Somehow it's hard to not think that keeping everything alive "just in case" is a very similar argument made by hoarders to justify their piles of things that do little more than get in the way of the progress of their life...

 
^^ that seriously made me laugh out loud.... in todays world we can honestly replicate so much genetically out of stem cells if it wasn't regulated my arguement would be different if the politics were different... but in the mean time... i'm a species environmental horder I guess....

 
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