Control System Engineering (CSE) October 2015

[UserFriendly]

Looking for folks taking the exam to chat about practice questions, strategy, or any other related topic. Please feel free to join the conversation. :group:

-UF

Looking for folks taking the exam coming up in October. If you're taking it or have taken it and would like to chat about questions, strategy, or any other related topic please feel free to join the conversation. -UF

Read More at: CSE October 2015 - Taking the exam? | InstrEng Forums

 

[UserFriendly]

ah noob fail oops

 

[Cali_eng]

Hi, I'm in California and I took and passed the chemical PE exam in April. I'm also taking the Control Systems PE exam this October in Pomona. I purchased both of the pdf/printable references from the ISA. One is basically a bunch of problems and the other is like a reference manual though it's missing a lot of detail and uses some symbols for things like specific gravity that are different. I also bought the PE Control Systems: Sample Questions & Solutions book which seems okay, I'm working through those problems and getting familar with my reference material. Having taken a PE exam, I think the best preparation is knowing your reference material. I also bought the PPI reference manual which is also incomplete. Both references contain steam tables, probably to bring up their total page count but it does not add much.

For the chemical PE exam in retrospect the Chemical Engineering Reference Manual along with my Kinetics text and the NCEES practice test were the only things I really needed. I have not purchased the Liptak references but if I don't pass this time, I will probably do so for next year as they seem like the only comprehensive treatment of Control Systems. Studying for this test is frustrating since the references aren't very good and I'm unsure if the problems I'm looking at are even similar to the test questions since they aren't from NCEES. In my experience, books of PE practice problems that don't come from NCEES are not all that similar to the actual exam. There are also a lot of questions that refer to NFPA, IEC, ISA standards but the only thing the references offer is a list of the standards, not any details of what's actually in the standards. A list does me no good but again it seems like the purpose is to fill more pages rather than provide useful content. Also I noticed that every reference book has an exhaustive (and nearly identical) summary of the PE exam which is also not really helpful since that can be found on the NCEES website.

Although I've purchased a bunch of references, I haven't put that much time into study, I have some hope that my work experience will come in handy since I'm a process control engineer and I work for a major system integrator reverse engineering RS Logix code and writing as built control narratives among other things. I do worry about all of the unfamiliar codes, regulations and sizing control valves (complicated process) the most.

How about yourself?

 

[UserFriendly]

Ah, thanks so much for responding, glad to hear my frustrations are not unique. I'm envious of my civil colleagues that have books and classes that walk them thru everything. There is no "Lindeburg" CSE book, like for the FE and nearly every other discipline. Also, no NCEES practice exams (more on this below).

I have the same references:

Control Systems Engineering Exam Reference Manual by Byron Lewis, PE
Control Systems Engineering (CSE) Study Guide, Fifth Edition

PE Control Systems: Sample Questions and Solutions by Jagadeesh Pandiyan, PE

I recommend:

Control Systems Engineer Technical Reference Handbook by Chuck Cornell, PE

Fisher Control Valve Handbook

NCEES Reference Handbook

FE Review Manual

The CSE Study guide actually is probably the best example of what sample problems will look like outside of an ISA class ($$$-But the videos are available on the ISA site free for ISA members.) Because as the CSE Study Guide states at the top of page 6, "Exams are developed by a standing ISA committee". I used it as a practice 8 hour exam and failed it. A lot of the questions on it are very reference specific, meaning if you don't have a reference for x, you don't have an answer. My theory is that a lot of these problems were thrown out of previous tests for precisely that reason. But the sample test will give you a feel for the "bait" that trickier questions may throw out to fool you.

The Pandiyan book I think is best for making you use your references and get to know them. It's not perfect, there are mistakes, but it makes you work and that is important.

I've heard mixed reviews of the Liptak books. One benefit I've read in an old forum, all the pick the best instrument questions use it as a reference. Another area where there is no consistency, the tables that list instruments, accuracies, turndown, etc. they're all different enough to give you a wrong answer. Omega (the mnfr) has downloadable technical references with tables that seem to very similar to the tables in Liptak.

I've gone through all my resources at this point and hopefully have honed in what each contains for quick lookup. I'm concerned about questions on industries and instruments that I don't have resources for. I feel pretty good about the quantitative, Pandiyan helped with that, qualitative seems like it could be very tricky. ISA 84 for example has multiple sections and all are fair game. Many of these can be reasoned through, but every now and then there seems to be a tricky one. Add to that a host of other standards, an extensive safety section....at least we can get about 20 wrong and still pass, right?

 

[Cali_eng]

I didn't realize that the review course videos are available on the ISA website for free, I actually called them to ask why no review classes are offered when the exam is this month but they didn't mention that, thanks.

I found the Liptak books online. They are thousands of pages and I'm not sure how useful they would actually be on the test now.

Ncees says the passing rate for first timers is 78% which is either the highest or second highest among all the disciplines. The second time pass rate is also higher than 50%. I'm actually going to bring the Lindberg with me to the test since its like the fe review manual but has quite a bit more stuff and a lot of material that relates to some problems we might encounter.

Good to hear that they threw out some of those questions which require some random standard as reference. I'm familiar with some like NFPA but others not as much.

I think we can get 20 wrong or so. I thought the chemical PE was actually pretty easy especially compared to some of the practice material.

What is your experience in the industry? I think that will certainly help us a lot on this test. One thing if you're actually practicing process control, doing design, etc. you should know a lot of this stuff. A lot of the other disciplines are not out there doing the design work or solving problems which makes studying for the test harder.

 

[UserFriendly]

I could not find the Liptak books online. They are huge volumes, at this point without knowing how to use them, it would be difficult to get up to speed on.

You're bringing your Chem Lindeburg with you? That may prove helpful as I've seen handfuls of practice questions that reference chemicals with which I'm unfamiliar.

The pass rates do make me feel optimistic, they do seem to suggest that the test is pretty fair. The many backgrounds, disciplines, experience, industries, etc one can have is really unorthodox when compared to e.g. a structural engineer.

I'm not certain they did throw those questions out, but I think it's safe to say that since they're in the ISA book that they're not on the test. I found some resources on the questions anyways as what I had before is a bit light.

Yes, 20-23 wrong, I think will result in a pass, >70%. Glad to hear you found the Chem PE easier than your study materials. I've heard the CSE is pretty straightforward but it was from someone that took it before the 2011 spec. There was one year where the pass rate was 96%! (2001).

I work in Water/Wastewater and not one of us has the same background: one civil/process, one chem, one electronics, one electrical with an electrical PE, and then me an electrical w/o a PE. My background is in system integration: SCADA, PLCs, radio, networking, and control system design. All of which helps but there's still a lot in the exam spec with which I'm not familiar.

Are you working the day before the exam? I'm taking the day off to check out the test site, prepare, and relax.

 

[Cali_eng]

I too am working in wastewater at the moment. It seems like a lot of the municipal water treatment facilities around the country are upgrading their control systems. We're putting in an Experion PKS DCS in Los Angeles, most of us are actually controls or electrical people but a few like me are also chemical.

I haven't been able to find this training on the ISA website, what keywords are you using to search? My membership has elapsed, is it only visible to members?

I took the PE before in the same place, there were a lot of people there before I learned a few things that will help me this time around. I'm not sure if this is universal but you can take a cell phone so long as you leave it at the front with the procters. You don't really need to bring food, there's a bunch of food places there. It's good to finish the morning session about 30 minutes early if you can manage it so you can be the first in line. If you wait the whole time, the line is fairly long. I spent the night before the exam last time in a hotel near the site but this time I will probably just drive. I felt myself starting to lose steam last time in the afternoon, I'll have to figure out a way this time to try and keep it together but it's pretty tough after 6 or 7 hours. I though putting those bookmark stickers with labels on my references was pretty useful.

I'm not working the day before the exam either, I think it's going to be another week until we get the exam authorization from NCEES. Are you feeling pressure? Do you need to stamp drawings?

 

[UserFriendly]

Yes wastewater upgrades do seem to be on the rise driven by EPA requirements for nutrient removal. I'm in the northeast, we don't see Honeywell at all, mostly Rockwell, some Modicon.

lms.isa.org is the online training site for the ISA, you can search for CSE. The videos are listed at cost of $0.00, 6 modules. Compare to the $1855 online course of 20 modules. I'm not sure if it's available if your membership lapsed, your login may give you access.

I've heard that as well about cell phones. That's a good tip for lunch, I was also going to bring some decent snack bars and unsweetened ice tea and water for the lag time. I heard another good tip, be prepared for the full checkout again after lunch (calculator etc.), the second section may not start until close to 2pm, making for a long day 7-6p.

I think you're right about the exam authorization. Maybe next Thurs/Friday, that's about two weeks out.

I do need to start stamping drawings soon, so it would be great if I pass first time around. There's a bit of a lull right now, it'd be nice to have a little more work to distract me from the exam for the next few weeks. Not too much work though, I want to feel confident on exam day not fried from work.

How about you (pressure-wise)? The LA project sounds pretty huge. Are you looking to stamp I&C drawings? I thought a PE could ethically stamp any drawing so long as it's something with which you have expertise.?

 

[Cali_eng]

I've stamped P&IDs and I've seen control systems pe's stamp those as well but we've got a bunch of new network drawings, cabinet drawings, loop drawings, etc. and my company only wants a control systems stamp. That combines with the fact that they only offer this once a year puts the pressure on. I just missed the application deadline for the Oct '14 test so it's been about 18 months! since I submitted this application.

 

[Cali_eng]

I wish they would just do rolling computer based exams like they do for the FE. I know it complicates the cut score calculation but having to wait this long is silly.

 

[UserFriendly]

Yeah, it definitely adds stress. The last thing I want to do is have to study and retake the test in 2016. Closed book computer based is supposedly on it's way (in the next 2-3 years according to the speaker in the videos). I would rather take a closed book exam, open book requires the candidate to be responsible for too much depth and breadth to be reasonable. I imagine there'll be a decent CSE Review Manual out by then, and they'll have some kind of handbook available for the exam, like the FE.

 

[CntrlEngrPE]

Hello Fellow Exam Takers,

Firstly, all the best this year. Secondly, I wanted to ask if anyone has received the exam auth yet?

Just to add to the conversation...here is how I have prepped...

I have gone through Chuck Cornell's entire textbook once.

I have gone through Batthika Control system handbook once.

Planning to go through the Bryon Lewis book once and complete it by next week..

Then take some practice exams...

And fine tune my preparation based on the exam results...

Then I also plan to flip through the Liptak book and heavily tab it.....I gave the exam last year and failed by a couple of points...and I strongly feel that the Liptak book had many instrumentation questions' answers in it...as feedback from someone who failed last year..please do not ignore the Liptak book!!

I have some ISA standards in my possession not all...

How are you guys going about collecting codes/references..such as ASME, IEEE etc? Is there a book or something out there that could list all these

 

[Cali_eng]

Best of luck to both of you. I have not gotten my exam authorization yet, I'm in California. When I took the Chemical PE last spring I did not get the authorization until two weeks before the exam so there's still some time.

I am also using my process control textbook from college to cover some of the math topics. I have two volumes of Liptak, I think it will help with specific measurement device questions.

The only thing I have for the standards is the list of what they are in the reference texts. I don't think an exhaustive and substantive list of the standards really exists and if it did it would probably cost thousands since a single standard can cost $100. Since you already took the test I presume there must be a lot of these questions. I suppose I will have to make my best guess, think hard and try to eliminate at least one answer for each.

I will have to try and stay calm when I come across the types of questions that I feel are unreasonable. It would be easy to let this upset me which would then affect the way I answer other questions.

 

[UserFriendly]

Best of luck to you both as well. I expect we'll receive the exam authorization later this week.

With Laptak volumes at $200 each, I had to pass. I was able to supplement with the OMEGA Transactions which has some specific information on Level, Flow, Temperature, Pressure, etc. Along with the references listed above, I have a pretty sizable stack of books.

How much prep time have you allowed yourself? I've averaged about 10 hours/week of study time since the beginning of August.

For Codes and Standards there are a few easy ones: the CSE Study Guide has a list at the end of the suggested reference section. Cornell covers a few at the end of his book. The Fisher Control Valve Handbook has a codes and standards section. Wikipedia has a list for IEC which is about 4 pages long. From there it starts getting tricky. I grabbed some common IEEE standards (Ethernet, wifi, etc) and tried googling for lists but didn't have too much success.

I think that's a good point, Cali_eng. We should anticipate unfair questions (topic, word choice) so that we're not disappointed when we encounter them. There is a bank of ~20 questions to get wrong, we'll have to spend wisely.

 

[CntrlEngrPE]

I had emailed NCEES last week asking when we will receive auth. I am told later this week so watch your emails.

I wanted to start at the beginning of August but couldn't..so I finally started beginning of September and just did the math..that I have studied about 30 hours per week since then..about 3-4 hours on weekdays after work...and 10 hours over the weekend...I have mostly been reading ..but this weekend onwards I will start focusing on calculations and math type stuff...Cv calculation..rupture disc calcs..resolution..zero calibration etc. ..Hope I haddn't cut it this close..but am planning to take a couple of days off of work to catch up a bit...then hit as many questions I can and refamiliarize myself with all the text...

Yes, there will be questions that may make you wanna swear...but we have about 20 or so to get wrong.. Let's hope we choose wisely...

 

[UserFriendly]

Received my authorization today about noon.

 

[CntrlEngrPE]

Me too..

 

[Cali_eng]

Me three. I can't say that I've put in as much time as you guys, I work a lot of OT and I have a five month old baby at home with a wife that needs attention as well. The two PE's in a year has def been tough on the family.

I got some studying in tonight, I think I'll def have to work on the more complex cv calcs, the tricky zero calibrations, and transfer functions. It may sound like a truism but when I'm taking the test, I really need to focus on reading the questions thoroughly.

 

[CntrlEngrPE]

Cali_eng: It is commendable that you are attempting a second PE with this life situation. I have always been curious, why do some people like yourself choose to get a second PE after you already have one? Doesn't the first PE allow you to sign Cntly Sys drawings if you felt you were comfortable with it? CSE is a tier two discipline which allows people of other discipline PE to sign control system drawings....just want to make sure you are aware of that ...

 

[Cali_eng]

Thanks for that. There are really endless reasons to get the PE. Recognition, even better resume, personal sense of satisfaction and accomplishment, it forces you to stay sharp mentally and study certain things that one might not otherwise study, I could go on and on. Signing drawings is near the bottom to be honest. While my job wants a cse stamp for system design drawings, it's not a real reason for me. I had this whole application process in the works long before I had my present job.

This might sound a little crazy but I would like to keep getting different PE's in the future. A part of me just likes the process and the study and all of the new things I learn as a result. I wouldn't mind too much if I fail this round either since I would then be forced to take a review course and get to learn some new things .