B.S. plus 30

[Dleg]

I know we have brought this up before - the new rule that will go into effect in 2015 requiring engineers to have 30 credit hours in addition to a Bachelor of Science degree to become licensed - essentially a Masters degree - but I thought I would link to the latest NCEES Licensure Exchange newsletter, where there is an interesting editorial by NCEES Treasurer Larry Smith, P.E. (scroll down to page 12 of 17 of the pdf file).

Once again, I do not disagree with the principle, but I think it is a shame that this is not being addressed by a more appropriate organization such as ABET, rather than the engineering licensing boards.

The article has kind of a "I had to walk 5 miles, barefoot, in the snow" kind of thing going on, and rubs me a bit wrong. I would think that anyone who is presently an engineer, and under the age of say 40, might also get the feeling that we are being diminshed as a lesser class of engineers than our seniors. Maybe we are, I don't know, but damn!

ld-025:

 

[Dark Knight]

NCEES doing it's thing again. That is the way they work. They are the Masters and Commanders, the Gods at the Olympus. They say and we obey.Period....no chance to express an opinion.

That is how they dealt with the calculators, and with the test format. "We decided that this is going to be like that and that is the bottom line because we said so"

Honestly I hate abusers and NCEES is nothing than an abusive organization. They have the power and they use it as their discretion. If only NCEES could involve us a little more....use a more democratic process. But that would be too much to ask for...right?

As Dleg said the issue should be addressed by ABET, who is the organization that deals with colleges. The NCEES should stay away from this. They can work together with ABET but that would be like giving away power and they are power maniacs.

I do also understand the point. I just do not like the way they are sticking it to the engineers. I can see MANY engineers unable to try to be licensed because money issues. It is hard enough to pay undergraduated credits. Imagine post graduated.

At least we have places like EB were we can at least rant or vent but the day will come when NCEES will also control what can be said on messages boards. They already make us close on test week-ends.... do not they?

 

[chaosiscash]

BIO,

I understand how you feel, but you have to remember that NCEES does not control any of the PE laws or rules, they only make suggestions that the state boards, individually, choose whether or not to follow. If you disagree with a particular issue, I urge you to get involved with your state board. Meetings (at least here in TN, and I assume everywhere) are required by law to be both open to the public and announced ahead of time. You also should have a local "representative" from your area of the state that you can call and speak with.

You also have to remember that both NCEES and the state boards are often run by PEs from academia. Why, you ask? Well, the answer is simple. They have the time. The rest of us in the world that work 40-50 hours a week for 50 weeks a year just don't want to fool with the time required to be involved. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't be. People that work for a living in a profession understand the profession the best and should be the ones making the decisions. But if we don't get involved in the process, we've got nobody to blame but ourselves.

The lack of a real professional organization (i.e., lobbying organization) within engineering is a prime example of this overall problem. Most of us can probably agree that NSPE has lost their focus. And the reason that the other primary professions that we like to compare ourselves to, the doctors and lawyers, have done better than us both from a financial and prestige standpoint is that they have professional organizations that work for and lobby for them with the government, both state and federal. Where as it seems our so-called professional organization, NSPE, is more concerned with training, PR, and "networking".

OK, I'm off my soapbox now. And don't get me wrong BIO, I know how you feel, and I'm not trying to single you out or anything. I think a lot of us feel like we don't have any control over our profession. But until we do something about it ourselves, nobody is going to fix it for us.

 

[Road Guy]

well you also have to consider NCEES doesnt have any authority in any of the 50 states, they are just making a recomendation.

They have been trying to make minor tweaks to prof. registration laws in my state for about a decade and the legislature hasnt even read them on the floor.

I still dont agree with needing a masters degree, I dont care if the community doesnt rank us up there with doctors & lawyers because personally most doctors and lawyers that I know are ********.

 

[chaosiscash]

I still dont agree with needing a masters degree, I dont care if the community doesnt rank us up there with doctors & lawyers because personally most doctors and lawyers that I know are ********.

Maybe so, but they are rich ********.

 

[Dark Knight]

We all can express our opinion and can have different point of views. With that said it is OK Chaos, I do not feel singled out. You did it with class and respect so no worries my friend. But the truth is that it is frutrating. Most of the times NCEES "suggests" and the fudging state boards do not even flinch and do what NCEES "suggested". Who the heck took the decission of not reporting scores? Why? How about the calculators? What are the criteria to include a calc on the list of banned or allowed? Things like that are the ones that really bother me.

One of these days NCEES will suggest the Boards to make us take the test every 5 years so we can renew the license. Sounds crazy? Wait and see. What will we win with that? Nothing...nada...What will NCEES and the Boards will win?....$$$$$$$$hhhhhh.

Maybe I am over the top but it is the way I feel. It is very uncomfortable to have an organization, just one, having so much decissional power over our profession. It is not fair.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

The lack of a real professional organization (i.e., lobbying organization) within engineering is a prime example of this overall problem. Most of us can probably agree that NSPE has lost their focus.

I'm involved with the local ASCE chapter and atteded a regional seminar last month. They are advocating the B+30 concept. So it's not that the professional societies are fighting it. Some are embracing it.

I'm of mixed feelings on this. I have my PE and a master's degree so it doesn't impact me either way. I know the rules don't technically say a master's degree. But really, who's gonna take 30 credits and not bother to get a degree out of it?

I don't think going to graduate school necessarily makes you any more prepared for engineering in the real world. I think the year or two of experience you lose assuming you go to school full time hurts you more than the extra schooling helps. Grad school teaches you advanced and theoretical techniques of doing things, which is great if you go into R&D. But for consultants and regulators, it doesn't really translate well.

Also, there's enough hoops to jump through to licensure in the first place. Adding another, particularly an expensive one like this, is going to scare some good candidates off.

At the same time though, it does make the license a more prestigious thing. And having less PE's running around out there makes those already licensed more valuable and employable.

 

[jfusilloPE]

Maybe so, but they are rich ********.

That may be the case, but as a senior project manager I am fighting daily to get decent payable rates from my clients to make money for the company.

Does anyone really think that with the additional education we will rank in the same pay class as doctors or lawyers? Until the insurance industry starts to dole out money for engineering services rendered, we will still be overworked and underpaid.

 

[Dark Knight]

That may be the case, but as a senior project manager I am fighting daily to get decent payable rates from my clients to make money for the company.
Does anyone really think that with the additional education we will rank in the same pay class as doctors or lawyers? Until the insurance industry starts to dole out money for engineering services rendered, we will still be overworked and underpaid.

I thought about that but most likely the additional education we will be forced to obtain will not be reflected in our pay. We will stay as we are, salary wise, but with another hurdle to jump.

 

[chaosiscash]

That may be the case, but as a senior project manager I am fighting daily to get decent payable rates from my clients to make money for the company.
Does anyone really think that with the additional education we will rank in the same pay class as doctors or lawyers? Until the insurance industry starts to dole out money for engineering services rendered, we will still be overworked and underpaid.

I agree, and thats my point. Additional education isn't going to change that. What is going to is agressive lobbying and organization. I am, in general, not pro-union. But the reason Doctors and Lawyers make more money isn't education, its because there is legislation in place to keep non-licensed folks from doing their work, and the licensed ones won't work cheap. As long as there are engineers out there that are willing to work for less than what they are worth, all of our rates will be affected.

 

[snickerd3]

Looks like Illinois is leaning towards the +30 hours. From their rather vague Board meeting mintues...They have discussed the new NCEES "requirements" for degree + 30 hours and have talked about the need to amend the state boards rules and posibily the Act.

 

[Undertaker]

This is very important.Is understandable to fear the unknown but my opinion is that this might be a good thing in the long run.Anyways the now PEs don't have to worry about this.You are PEs already.I also see a drop in the numbers of engineering students.So until 2015 don't worry about it.

 

[benbo]

Not all lawyers and doctors are created equal. Plus lawyers and doctors are two different animals.

There are so many lawyers now, that a lot of them cannot even make a living. My mom was a lawyer for 35 years and never made over 40,000. There are gov't lawyers working with me who make less than I do. And lot's of lawyers can't find work at all. Unless you graduate from a top school, or really hustle to make your bones, you are not going to get super rich as a lawyer.

As stated here, doctors make a lot of money because of the law of supply and demand. They strictly control entrance to med school and the gov't controls what medical professionals can do. THey could easily allow three times as many people into med school and still have competent docs. But with that said, even the medical regulations and pay is changing. I know a lot of doctors from various ways - two sick parents, my own illnesses, I went to school with a lot of them, and I have a lot of them as neighbors. THey make a good living but not all are super rich. It depends on their specialization. My own pcp makes about $150,000 a year. Granted, that is a pretty good salary, but not a fortune. More and more, regulations are being relaxed and now physicians assistants and nurse practictioners do a lot of the work formerly only performed by physicians. And as we move to more HMOs and maybe even some sort of gov't health care, salaries will have to go down.

The real problem with engineering salaries is that we allow foreign engineers in at too great a ratre and for too low a salary. Engineering is fairly self regulating - it is hard and not many people understand it. That's why fewer and fewer Americans are becoming engineers. I'm all for HB-1 visas as long as they can't find the engineers here, and are not an excuse for companies to pay slave wages just because they can get away with it. I don't think requiring a Master's degree is going to help anything. And if they had the kind of selectivity they have for med school for engineering school, I'm not really sure I would have made it. And I do a good job. I don't think that is necessary.

 

[squishles10]

I can see how in some areas of CE this would be helpful. For example, I'm in WR and those of us with a Master's seem to have a better grasp on concepts. I started in Land Development, and I couldn't tell you one thing that I got out of my Master's that would have helped me with that job. Florida has a rule where (not 100% accurate here, don't yell at me) if you don't pass the PE (& the EIT I believe) after so many tries (3? 4?) you have to take 12 hours in your deficient area. This seems to me to make more sense than making everyone do this when for a majority it may not be necessary.

 

[udpolo15]

Not all lawyers and doctors are created equal. Plus lawyers and doctors are two different animals.
There are so many lawyers now, that a lot of them cannot even make a living. My mom was a lawyer for 35 years and never made over 40,000. There are gov't lawyers working with me who make less than I do. And lot's of lawyers can't find work at all. Unless you graduate from a top school, or really hustle to make your bones, you are not going to get super rich as a lawyer.

exactly.

only a handful of lawyers work for biglaw where the starting salaries are $150K+. the flipside is that they give up their life. I would say most lawyers start at $60K or below.

my father-in-law closed down his practice because he wasn't making any money. I think he was paying over $100K a year in malpractice insurance.

also both doctors and lawyers don't have a company that will pay for their advanced education and most are saddled with significant debt when they get out of school

 

[Guest]

I understand how you feel, but you have to remember that NCEES does not control any of the PE laws or rules, they only make suggestions that the state boards, individually, choose whether or not to follow. If you disagree with a particular issue, I urge you to get involved with your state board.

I do not entirely agree with your point here. NCEES, et al has gotten into the business of FOISTING products onto the state licensing agencies. In just the ~ 6 yrs I have been actively participating in obtaining licensure I have seen ELSES:

1. Become the RESPONSIBLE party for developing the exams and scores for the P.E. exams. They do this under the 'model' that your license should be readily portable,

2. Develop an arm called ELSES that administers the exam for the majority of the states, and

3. Develop a NCEES Record program that practically every state is buying into as NECESSARY in order to obtain licensure by endorsement in other states.

My fear is that NCEES has become so embedded in the licensure process that state boards have almost ABDICATED thier duties in favor of a national clearinghouse. I believe if NCEES being the money whores that they appear to be want to push requiring the 30+ concept they will be able to easily foist that upon states because of the voice they already have in the decision-making process.

While I agree with you that becoming involved in your state boards decisions is necessary, it WILL NOT prevent the expansion of the NCEES power machine to continue to dictate wishes and desires upon the individual state licensing boards. All of this in the name of conformity.

[/rant]

Until the insurance industry starts to dole out money for engineering services rendered, we will still be overworked and underpaid.

This is very true. Also, I have seen some of these insurance instruments ABUSED to the point that those insurance companies are wary of establishing such policies. The only way to get cashflow ergo better pay is to have a better payor source. Insurance companies will be critical as engineers want to get paid better for QUALITY services.

There are so many lawyers now, that a lot of them cannot even make a living. My mom was a lawyer for 35 years and never made over 40,000. There are gov't lawyers working with me who make less than I do. And lot's of lawyers can't find work at all. Unless you graduate from a top school, or really hustle to make your bones, you are not going to get super rich as a lawyer.

Very good points all the way around benbo, as usual. Interesting fact in Florida. In Leon County, there is a tentative settlement between the teachers union and the education board to provide an across the board pay increase of ~4%. If this goes into effect, the base pay for a starting teacher will exceed the base pay for a starting attorney for the State of Florida. :true:

The real problem with engineering salaries is that we allow foreign engineers in at too great a ratre and for too low a salary. Engineering is fairly self regulating - it is hard and not many people understand it. That's why fewer and fewer Americans are becoming engineers. I'm all for HB-1 visas as long as they can't find the engineers here, and are not an excuse for companies to pay slave wages just because they can get away with it. I don't think requiring a Master's degree is going to help anything. And if they had the kind of selectivity they have for med school for engineering school, I'm not really sure I would have made it. And I do a good job. I don't think that is necessary.

Another very good point - I see this principle directly applied to state employment. My co-workers become irritated as to why wages remain stagnant and I reply the simple answer is because people will continue to accept state employment at those wages. Period. The ugly answer is that they do it because they can.

I also believe that requiring a masters degree is NOT going to increase pay or quality of work that professional engineers provide today. If anything, it is going to artificially cut out folks because of grades, financial circumstances, etc. I am with you benbo, if my graduate school exercised competitive admission, I doubt I would have been admitted either. I know I am not top rung but I am not exactly fodder either !!

JR

 

[Road Guy]

I just dont believe you make money based on extra education, you make money because of supply & demand. Lawyers are getting saturated and thats going to drive down there fee's. Especially ones with minimal experience.

My brother in law is a doctor, works 2 days a week and makes what I make working 5 days a week, but he's an *******, and I dont want to be an *******, not even a rich *******.

I have watched salaries in my area (Atlanta) boom, because there is a lot of "need", development, traffic, people, etc. People are graduating today asking for $50K in this town, its crazy (but slowing down a little)

I dont think there is a universal trigger that is going to make all engineers make 6 figures, but in all honesty I dont know many of my peers with PE's and 10+ years experience that dont already make $100K or are either in the $90's.

I think we, as engineers, should work to make sure states dont start accepting Bachelors degrees from india, china, and the like without first making them get an advanced degree from within the US (which I still think is BS) thats probably going to be a bigger threat than a few extra classes (& if you look at your transcripts I bet most of you already have the # of credits NCEES is recommending) I do & my school isnt even one "of those big ones"

 

[Guest]

Florida has a rule where (not 100% accurate here, don't yell at me) if you don't pass the PE (& the EIT I believe) after so many tries (3? 4?) you have to take 12 hours in your deficient area.

You have three (3) tries in order to pass. The FBPE will prescribe a course of study in order to remedy your deficiencies (not necessarily allow you to take courses in your deficient area).

JR

 

[chaosiscash]

While I agree with you that becoming involved in your state boards decisions is necessary, it WILL NOT prevent the expansion of the NCEES power machine to continue to dictate wishes and desires upon the individual state licensing boards. All of this in the name of conformity.

Maybe you are right. That comes down to whether or not people believe that you can actively make a difference in your government (be it state or federal). And maybe NCEES would continue to set policy even if people were more involved with the state boards. But if they never even try, I know that NCEES will take them over.

Just my :2cents:

 

[Dark Knight]

Thanks for reminding me that JR.NCEES created ELSES so they can administer the test too. Define monopoly and absolute power.

Maybe Milton Bradley Parker Brothers will design a Monopoly game with a NCEES theme soon.

I can imagine that....NCEES South Carolina would be the most expensive property in the table...GO TO TEST SITE. The game can be arranaged with the licensing boards, the tokens can be representative of each discipline or the pencils.

One of the cards will say....You did not pass the PE test Pay $325 and GO TO TEST SITE.....or this one.....GET OUT OF TEST SITE FREE.

Sorry...got side tracked. Back to the issue. NCEES has way to much power and influence over the boards. That is a fact and that kind of situation is not good in any area.

edited to correct a mental fart....