Wind power is a green mirage of the worst kind.

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Capt Worley PE

Run silent, run deep
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http://windconcernsontario.wordpress.com/2...kind-of-mirage/

Wind energy is an engineer’s nightmare. To begin with, the energy density of flowing air is miserably low. Therefore, you need a massive contraption to catch one megawatt at best, and a thousand of these to equal a single gas-or coal-fired power plant.
If you design them for a wind speed of 34 miles per hour, they are useless at wind speeds below 22 mph and extremely dangerous at 44 mph, unless feathered in time. Remember, power is proportional to the cube of the wind speed. Old-fashioned Dutch windmills needed a two-man crew on 12-hour watch, seven days a week, because a runaway windmill first burnt its bearings, then its hardwood gears, then the entire superstructure.

This was the nightmare of millers everywhere in the “good” old days. And what did these beautiful antiques deliver? Fifteen horsepower at best, in favourable winds, about what a power lawn mower does these days. No wonder the Dutch switched to steam-powered pumping stations as soon as they could, in the late 19th century.

Since the power generated by modern wind turbines is so unpredictable, conventional power plants have to serve as back-ups. These run at less than half power most of the time. That is terribly uneconomical — only at full power do they have good thermal efficiency and minimal CO2 emissions per kWh delivered.

Think also a moment of the cable networks needed: not only a fine-maze distribution network at the consumer end, but also one at the generator end. And what about servicing? How do you get a repair crew to a lonely hillside? Especially when you decided to put the wind park at sea? Use helicopters — now that is green!

For that matter, would you care to imagine what happens to rotor blades in freezing rain? Or how the efficiency of laminar-flow rotor blades decreases as bugs and dust accumulate on their leading edges?

Or what did happen in Germany more than once? German legislation gives wind power absolute priority, so all other forms of generating electricity have to back off when the wind starts blowing. This creates dangerous, almost uncontrollable instabilities in the high-voltage network. At those moments, power plant operators all over Europe sweat blood, almost literally. The synchronization of the system is also a scary job: alternating currents at 100,000 volts or more cannot be out of phase more than one degree or so, else circuit breakers pop everywhere and a brownout all over Europe starts.

One application might be attractive, though. Suppose you fill a water basin in the hills nearby using wind power when it blows, and turn the water turbines on when emergency power is needed for one reason or another (a power plant failure, a cold winter night).

Wind power is a green mirage of the worst kind. It looks green to simple souls but it is a technical nightmare. Nowhere I have been, be it Holland, Denmark, Germany, France or California, have I seen wind parks where all turbines were operating properly. Typically, 20% stand idle, out of commission, broken down. Use Google Videos to find examples of wind turbine crashes, start meditating and reach your own conclusions.

Why don’t politicians listen to engineers? Why do engineers cave in to politically inspired financing? Merely to join the green daydreaming? I am an engineer; I want to be proud of my profession.

- Henk Tennekes is an aeronautical engineer and the former research director of KNMI, the Dutch National Weather Service. This article was published today by The Pielke Research Group at http://cires.colorado.edu/science/groups/pielke/
 
Since the power generated by modern wind turbines is so unpredictable, conventional power plants have to serve as back-ups. These run at less than half power most of the time. That is terribly uneconomical — only at full power do they have good thermal efficiency and minimal CO2 emissions per kWh delivered.
This part is interesting. In our state, the fossil plants cycle and would be cycling some anyway even if there weren't any wind farms. The question is, how much more cycling do they have to do, and how much more inefficient is it because of the wind farms, compared with how much emissions the windfarms save. A lot of cogeneration plants are also notoriously unreliable (although not as bad as wind plants). I wonder what the tradeoff is here too.

I wonder if anybody has ever done a good simulation of this.

 
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Dr. Walter Bray PE spoke of this to the energy commision years ago(this was told to me by his son, also a PE). He and other professors were gathered together to see what worked and what did not. What they found, at best it takes 20 years for a wind turbine to make a return on the energy to build and maintain it, at the time, wind turbines lasted only 10 to 11 years at best. Another feel good product is all it is.

 
It's refreshing to read an article that is well thought out and based on facts. I just wish we could get some people to listen to the real experts about this instead of the "experts" who are touting it.

 
knowing very little about electricity besides the basic home wiring stuff and what little I remember from my one college class that talked about components,etc:

Is there some way to store any amount of power (in a grand scale) similar to a capacitor,etc? I've heard about pumping water up the hill in low demand, and releasing it back through the hydro plant during high demand, but that seems to be a unique situation or three... Any other options?

 
knowing very little about electricity besides the basic home wiring stuff and what little I remember from my one college class that talked about components,etc:
Is there some way to store any amount of power (in a grand scale) similar to a capacitor,etc? I've heard about pumping water up the hill in low demand, and releasing it back through the hydro plant during high demand, but that seems to be a unique situation or three... Any other options?
Yes, and I am trying to work on it, have this **** test in the way that I have to pass.

 
knowing very little about electricity besides the basic home wiring stuff and what little I remember from my one college class that talked about components,etc:
Is there some way to store any amount of power (in a grand scale) similar to a capacitor,etc? I've heard about pumping water up the hill in low demand, and releasing it back through the hydro plant during high demand, but that seems to be a unique situation or three... Any other options?
A capacitor would have to be huge - I don't think it's practical.

Batteries are another possiblity, again probably not practical large scale.

Aside from pumped storage the water thing), another thing I have heard is using the wind power to compress air, then releasing that compressed air into a gas turbine to improve efficiency.

Lot's of people are working on storage, better transmission and distribution, and better demand prediction and power flow.

 
Here's what I've been thinking wind would be good for: how feasible would it be to run stand-alone wind turbines, powering an electrolysis hydrogen generator, to create and store hydrogen for fuel-cell powered cars and other applications? Fill up your gas tank while you're sleeping, or at work, etc.

Stupid idea?

 
Here's what I've been thinking wind would be good for: how feasible would it be to run stand-alone wind turbines, powering an electrolysis hydrogen generator, to create and store hydrogen for fuel-cell powered cars and other applications? Fill up your gas tank while you're sleeping, or at work, etc.
Stupid idea?
Sounds interesting to me. I'm sure somebody is probably working on something similar. Time to write up your patent.

 
They also make windmills that you can erect in your back yard or on the roof that will power your house in a similar fashion to photovoltaic panels on your roof. They are prohibitively expensive at the moment, and I imagine they would be against a lot of neighborhood covenants, but they do exist.

 
Here's what I've been thinking wind would be good for: how feasible would it be to run stand-alone wind turbines, powering an electrolysis hydrogen generator, to create and store hydrogen for fuel-cell powered cars and other applications? Fill up your gas tank while you're sleeping, or at work, etc.
Stupid idea?
that's my idea!

 
Here's what I've been thinking wind would be good for: how feasible would it be to run stand-alone wind turbines, powering an electrolysis hydrogen generator, to create and store hydrogen for fuel-cell powered cars and other applications? Fill up your gas tank while you're sleeping, or at work, etc.
Stupid idea?
that's my idea!
What'd I tell you. Somebody is working on this idea. I just didn't know he would also be reading the post.

 
Hey, I don't expect anything from it. I jsut want to be like Al Gore and be able to claim I invented it later on, after someone else does all the hard work of making it actually happen!

And I thought cement invented pavement?

 
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Aside from pumped storage the water thing), another thing I have heard is using the wind power to compress air, then releasing that compressed air into a gas turbine to improve efficiency.
Now THERE'S a pressure vessel I wouldn't want to be standing next to!

 
I wish the political crap could be separated from facts and let the engineers work on facts. I'm involved with a project that has turned into a nightmare because a piece of this theory and a bit of that article and a combination of conflicting technical specifications turned into a contractual requirement. A good measure is to ask yourself if you would spend YOUR money on it.

 
Part of the problem we have with wind power in Michigan is that the best location for windmills is around the edge of Lake Michigan. That coast is full of tourist towns, any of which would essentially be killed if somebody built a farm of 30-story windmills out in the lake.

Also, it would be cheaper and more efficient to, say, put smart thermostats in all the huge office buildings that maintain 80 degrees through the winter nights when unoccupied.

 
If only I could figure out a way to put wind turbines on abandoned landfills...

 
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