use of PE in sig if Licensed in another state

[SPSUEngineer]

Lets say a person is licensed in one state but works in another where they are not yet licensed. Is it lawful for that person to use PE after their name if they are not licensed in the state they are working in? Is it ethical?

I realize different states can have different rules on this. Just trying to get some opinions.

 

[dastuff]

Lets say a person is licensed in one state but works in another where they are not yet licensed. Is it lawful for that person to use PE after their name if they are not licensed in the state they are working in? Is it ethical?
I realize different states can have different rules on this. Just trying to get some opinions.

I believe that I've heard it's dependent on the state. But if your office is located in one state (which you have a PE in) and you're doing work in another I don't think they can expect you to change your signature every time. And honestly, would you ever be able to track it?

Either way, i've never heard of anyone being held accountable for this. And I do have PE in my sig for all my emails...

 

[MA_PE]

I realize different states can have different rules on this.

Yes they do, and you should pay attention to them. In some states it's illegal to practice engineering or offer engineering services if you're not licensed in that state. business cards or technical e-mails are construed as offering services and practicing engineering.

I would think putting PE after you name on a business card or e-mail where your business address is listed and you are NOT licensed in that state is a clear violation. One work around would be to add PE and specifically state the state where you have a license. For example PE (MA).

dastuff: you may want to check on people being held accountable. If I recall correctly TX is pretty active is pursuing people for this stuff within TX.

 

[Dleg]

I remember reading one of those ethics articles in the ASCE newsletter about this (or maybe NPSE....) I seem to recall the recommendation was to do something similar to what MA_PE suggested, and put a note below your signature that says which states you are licensed in. That way you can still sign as "PE", but avoid trouble with the state licensing board. Some boards, I hear (ahem...) are pretty ruthless in going after little violations like that.

 

[Tark62]

This issue came up for a colleague at a company where I once worked. They referred the matter to the company's legal counsel and E&O insurance provider.

The next day, all of my colleague's business cards (with the out-of-state title) were confiscated and destroyed.

It was deemed a clear violation of state law to claim the title of "PE" if you were not licensed as a PE under the laws of that state. So the legal exposure to the company was deemed unacceptable. It apparently also threatened to void the E&O coverage for any work by the individual in question.

 

[SPSUEngineer]

It seems to me even if its "legal" it may be unethical in the sense that many of your clients or peers are led to believe or would infer that you are a licensed engineer in the state where you reside and perform the vast majority of your work (and their project). Also the legal exposure is a good point as well. A good lawyer would definitely use that to their advantage in court.

 

[JoeBoone82]

I'm not even a PE yet, but this is pretty interesting. It doesnt seem like it would matter if you had PE after your name as long as you arent designing in that particular state. IMO if you are a PE, then you are a PE. To me, if you dont say which state you are licensed in, then the other party should not make assumptions. Look in the magazines/textbooks/emails/articles/etc from societies and other things... they all have PE after their names and it doesnt mean that they are practicing in my state because I received something from them. Well, I guess you can argue it either way. Like I said though, I'm not eligible to take the test yet, so I can not say too much. I did think the previous comment sounds smart and probably the safest route... having the state after your designation.

 

[Vishal]

It is our company policy to write the name of the state you are licensed in parentheses, if your 'home-office' is in a different state. This applies to email signatures and business cards. One you get your 'home-state' PE, you can chose to take the state out primarily because the business address is listed on the business card. However, you are encouraged to put the names of the states in the email signature as you may frequently interact with your colleagues/clients in different offices/states.

I know that Florida board is fanatical about this thing. I had once emailed the Board for some clarification on the endorsement application to transfer my PE from TX to FL. My signature read Mr. V, P.E. (TX). in response to my email,

Good morning Mr. V:
First, please remove PE from your name and title (yes, I understand you are a PE in Texas) until you are licensed in Florida.

To this I had to point her to the name of the state that I had included. The place where I work now and at my former company, your actual job title does not include "Engineer" if you work in one of the states like Florida as it is against the state law. I was called an Analyst.

 

[IlPadrino]

This is a topic that's been talked about a bit here... take a look at NCEES Record and Value of In-State PE, What is In-State PE worth? which references an NSPE article Ethical Behavior in Business Cards (sorry, it seems the article is no longer available to the non-member public - maybe someone can help!).

I also started a topic NSPE Board of Ethical Review, What is their jurisdiction and why do I care?

And you might find NSPE BER article USE OF P.E. DESIGNATION interesting, too.

 

[dastuff]

Haha, well then I guess I'll change my signature... Good to know.

 

[IlPadrino]

Haha, well then I guess I'll change my signature... Good to know.

Come on... where's the courage of your conviction?!?

For what it's worth, I have PE in my signature (no State specified) but I figure because I work for the Federal Government which has no State "jurisdiction" I'm probably OK. It would be hard for someone to argue that I'm advertising for engineering services that fall under the control of a state licensing board.

And no one has yet to tell me why I should care about the NSPE BER!

 

[Tark62]

IMO if you are a PE, then you are a PE.

If you try submitting a plan or report to a state or local agency with an out-of-state stamp, you will discover very quickly that they don't see it that way. In fact, some states further distinguish PEs by discipline: for example, a California Mechanical PE has different stamping authority than a California Electrical PE. So the reality is that a PE is *not* necessarily a PE.

To me, if you dont say which state you are licensed in, then the other party should not make assumptions.

That's unrealistic. Do you always check with state licensing boards every time you consult with a doctor, nurse, lawyer, CPA, pharmacist, etc.? Or do you just assume that these professionals have the proper qualifications? The reality is that if you use a professional title, then the general public will automatically assume that you are legally qualified to do so.

Look in the magazines/textbooks/emails/articles/etc from societies and other things... they all have PE after their names and it doesnt mean that they are practicig in my state because I received something from them.

In practice, there are different standards for materials that are pitched at practicing engineers, as opposed to the general public. It is reasonable to assume, for example, that the readers of ASCE journals have a relatively sophisticated understanding of licensure issues, and are not likely to be misled by the generic use of the PE title.

 

[Dleg]

I know that Florida board is fanatical about this thing. I had once emailed the Board for some clarification on the endorsement application to transfer my PE from TX to FL. My signature read Mr. V, P.E. (TX). in response to my email,

My board is pretty much the same. Back before I was a PE, I was listed in my agency newsletter as "environmental engineer" in an article, and I received a cease and desist letter from the board just for that (they were wrong, too, which I pointed out - state employees are exempted from the licensing rules in our state)

 

[dastuff]

Come on... where's the courage of your conviction?!?

Let me try that again...

[emphasis]I guess i'll have to change my sig... Good to know[/emphasis]

Karate Chop!!!! Dance Fever! arty-smiley-048:

Out of curiosity what if you send an email to someone in your state but then they forward it out of state... Seems like this will become a can of worms.

 

[IlPadrino]

Out of curiosity what if you send an email to someone in your state but then they forward it out of state... Seems like this will become a can of worms.

In your signature block you should put at least the city/state of your employment - that would simplify things. Business cards almost always have an address, so you're covered there.

But maybe you're missing the point of this... it isn't about what others do (e.g. forwarding your e-mail), it's about what YOU represent that can run afoul of ethics and licensing board.

 

[Road Guy]

so everyone who has PE in your username here, you must put the state in parenthesis ld-025:

personally I think its kind of silly, if you have NAme, PE, address that covers it (only in my opinion) and if I see an email from John Smith, PE, (GA) (AL) (FL) (MN) (SC) etc...with more than 4 states listed I keep it and laugh at it

Its one thing to have that on your email, but another thing to work in that state without getting the license transferred..

 

[JoeBoone82]

personally I think its kind of silly, if you have NAme, PE, address that covers it (only in my opinion) and if I see an email from John Smith, PE, (GA) (AL) (FL) (MN) (SC) etc...with more than 4 states listed I keep it and laugh at it

I agree... I work with plenty who have licenses in MANY states... would look funny to see some of them with 20 states behind their name & title.

It doesnt seem like an email would be that big of a deal if you have your address in the signature. It's not like your signing/stamping drawings or design calcs without designating the proper state.

 

[Ritchie503]

Good topic. Below I attached what happened here in Minnesota regarding this issues, it was in their Newsletter (Volume 13, Number 2), it is also available online at http://www.aelslagid.state.mn.us/

I know it is a bit lengthy, but good reading for those interested.

~Ritchie503

In the Matter of Dennis Dunham, Professional Engineer, License #45627 On May 9, 2008, the Board issued a Stipulation and Order. Facts: Respondent has been licensed to practice Professional Engineering by the State of Michigan since 1991 to the present. Respondent was first licensed to practice Professional Engineering in the State of Minnesota on April 24, 2007. Before he became licensed to practice Professional Engineering in the State of Minnesota, Respondent held himself out as a Professional Engineer (PE) in a letter dated March 10, 2006. In that letter, the Respondent used the designation “P.E.” after his signature. The return address on the letterhead is 309 NE 9th Avenue, Grand Rapids, MN, 55744. A true and correct copy of the letter is on file in the Board office. Respondent states in a letter to the Board dated October 25, 2006 that he is licensed as a Professional Engineer in Michigan and that “It is my present intention to apply for P.E. licensure in Minnesota by comity.” The Board received his comity application for a Professional Engineering license on November 22, 2006. Respondent signed this letter using the title PE (MI 6201036546). A true and correct copy of Respondent’s October 25, 2006 letter is on file in the Board office. Respondent submitted a sales brochure(s), a typical marketing letter he uses, dated August 2005, with his letter to the Board dated October 25, 2006. Respondent held himself out as a Professional Engineer by using the designation “P.E.” after his name. The return address on the letterhead is 309 NE 9th Avenue, Grand Rapids, MN, 55744. A true and correct copy of Respondent’s August 2005 letter is on file in the Board office. Respondent submitted a business card to the Board with his letter dated October 25, 2006. Respondent used the designation “P.E.” after his name. Respondent held himself out as a Professional Engineer by using the designation “P.E.” after his name. The business address on the card is 309 NE 9th Avenue, Grand Rapids, MN, 55744. A true and correct copy of Respondent’s business card is on file in the Board office. Respondent submitted his resumé with his letter to the Board dated October 25, 2006. Respondent uses the designation “P.E.” after his name on his resumé. Respondent held himself out as a Professional Engineer by using the designation “P.E.” after his name. Respondent’s address on the resumé is 28 Snelling Ave, Duluth, MN, 55812. A true and correct copy of Respondent’s resumé is on file in the Board office.Disciplinary Action: The Board acknowledges that Respondent has voluntarily taken corrective action by applying for and receiving his Professional Engineering license in the State of Minnesota. In addition thereto, 10 Respondent agrees to the following stipulations: Respondent, in any advertisement or other publication which includes a Minnesota mailing address, may use the unqualified designation of Professional Engineer or “P.E.” after his name only so long as he remains licensed by the State of Minnesota as a Professional Engineer. If Respondent ceases to be licensed as a Professional Engineer in Minnesota, then in any advertisement or other publication which includes a Minnesota business address, Respondent may use the designation of Professional Engineer or “P.E.” only if either the phrase “Licensed only in Michigan” or the phrase “Not Licensed in Minnesota” is included in the advertisement or other publication next to that designation.

 

[Tark62]

It isn't just PEs that face this question. It affects state-licensed professionals in a wide variety of fields (e.g. CPAs, doctors, lawyers, etc). For example, the State Bar of Nevada has also addressed this issue:

QUESTION - May an attorney who is licensed to practice law in States A and B but lives in Nevada, where the attorney is not licensed and does not practice law, have as his letter:
John Doe

Attorney And Counselor At Law

123 Any Street

Anyville, Nevada 89523

ADMITTED TO PRACTICE:

State A

State B

ANSWER - Not unless the letterhead is modified to disclose that the attorney is not licensed to practice in Nevada.

In other words, you cannot use the title of "attorney" in Nevada, based on out-of-state licenses -- even if you take the precaution of explicitly indicating the states where you are licensed. That's still not good enough: the State Bar says you have to go one step further, and also explicitly indicate that you are not licensed in Nevada.

 

[Roy T.]

Yes they do, and you should pay attention to them. In some states it's illegal to practice engineering or offer engineering services if you're not licensed in that state. business cards or technical e-mails are construed as offering services and practicing engineering.
I would think putting PE after you name on a business card or e-mail where your business address is listed and you are NOT licensed in that state is a clear violation. One work around would be to add PE and specifically state the state where you have a license. For example PE (MA).

dastuff: you may want to check on people being held accountable. If I recall correctly TX is pretty active is pursuing people for this stuff within TX.

That's incorrect. The Texas Attorney Generals office has issued advisory opinions, as well as other states, stating that any attempt by a state licensing board to restrict the use of the title "P.E." if a person is licensed as such in another state is a violation of FEDERAL antitrust laws and could subjugate the STATE LICENSING BOARD to CIVIL and CRIMINAL FEDERAL charges of RESTRAINT OF TRADE.

P.E. is a nationally recognized licensed, as are M.D. and CPA. Any attempt by a state board to prevent a duly licensed PE from another state to identify himself as such would open to board to FEDERAL ANTITRUST charges.

Remember - FEDERAL law trumps all state law - ANY state

Just for kicks - the Justice Department has already sued the NSPE in the past for restraint of trade for state laws that restrict competitive bidding. The FEDS are very keen on anything that smacks of commercial restraint.