Religion and Engineers

[wilheldp_PE]

Well, since we have thoroughly discussed politics, I figured we should hit on the other office taboo subject...religion.

Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be a higher rate of atheists, agnostics, pastafarians, or otherwise religiously apathetic people among engineers than in the general public? In the sample size of people that I went to school with, I know of 3 very devoutly religious people (ironically, they are all different religions too...jewish, baptist, and catholic). On the other hand, I know of at least 10 actively atheist people, and several agnostics. The vast majority of my friends from school are either non-practicing members of whatever church their parents attended, or just completely indifferent to religion (they aren't atheist/agnostic, but they aren't religious either).

I think this phenomenon stems from the scientific mindset of engineers. We look for logical and/or plausible explanations for why things are the way they are. A mythical being that you can't hear or see creating things out of thin air, granted with the powers of omniscience and omnipotence just doesn't seem to jive with our mentality.

There is also the theory* that religion has been used throughout recorded history to instill fear in people in order to gain power over them and money from them. I feel that the power and wealth of the Catholic church is a significant validation of this theory. Also, if you look at ancient religions and some modern ones (Hindu comes to mind), you notice that there gods to explain everything that is/was unexplained at that point in history. For instance, the Greek god Helios was said to pull the sun into the sky every day...which was used to explain the rising and setting of the sun before astronomy had been thoroughly researched. I find it quite interesting that the Big Bang Theory is currently being studied because the creation of the universe is one of the last big unexplained things that religion is used to explain.

* I used the word "theory" because I realize that this post will be highly offensive to some people, and that is not my intention. I just wanted to discuss the impression that I get that engineers seem to have a tendency towards being non-religious, and hear other peoples' reasons for either being religious or not.

 

[SSmith]

I find it quite interesting that the Big Bang Theory is currently being studied because the creation of the universe is one of the last big unexplained things that religion is used to explain.

The Big Bang concept doesn't attempt to explain the creation of the universe, because the whole "infinitely dense point in space" part assumes something was there prior to the Bang. Big difference from the religious perspective arguing creationist "beginning from nothing" position against it. Very much arguing apples to oranges.

 

[Dleg]

I think a person's religious beliefs are their own business and I will nto discuss mine, or ask anyone to discuss theirs. but to more direclty address your question, this is from the wikipedia page on atheism:

A letter published in Nature in 1998 reported a survey suggesting that belief in a personal god or afterlife was at an all-time low among the members of the U.S. National Academy of Science, only 7.0% of whom believed in a personal god as compared with more than 85% of the general U.S. population.[100] In the same year Frank Sulloway of the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Michael Shermer of California State University conducted a study which found in their polling sample of "credentialed" U.S. adults (12% had Ph.Ds and 62% were college graduates) 64% believed in God, and there was a correlation indicating that religious conviction diminished with education level.[101] An inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence has been found by 39 studies carried out between 1927 and 2002, according to an article in Mensa Magazine.[102] These findings broadly agree with a 1958 statistical meta-analysis by Professor Michael Argyle of the University of Oxford. He analyzed seven research studies that had investigated correlation between attitude to religion and measured intelligence among school and college students from the U.S. Although a clear negative correlation was found, the analysis did not identify causality but noted that factors such as authoritarian family background and social class may also have played a part.[103]

 

[benbo]

Well, since we have thoroughly discussed politics, I figured we should hit on the other office taboo subject...religion.
Has anybody else noticed that there seems to be a higher rate of atheists, agnostics, pastafarians, or otherwise religiously apathetic people among engineers than in the general public? In the sample size of people that I went to school with, I know of 3 very devoutly religious people (ironically, they are all different religions too...jewish, baptist, and catholic). On the other hand, I know of at least 10 actively atheist people, and several agnostics. The vast majority of my friends from school are either non-practicing members of whatever church their parents attended, or just completely indifferent to religion (they aren't atheist/agnostic, but they aren't religious either).

I think this phenomenon stems from the scientific mindset of engineers. We look for logical and/or plausible explanations for why things are the way they are. A mythical being that you can't hear or see creating things out of thin air, granted with the powers of omniscience and omnipotence just doesn't seem to jive with our mentality.

There is also the theory* that religion has been used throughout recorded history to instill fear in people in order to gain power over them and money from them. I feel that the power and wealth of the Catholic church is a significant validation of this theory. Also, if you look at ancient religions and some modern ones (Hindu comes to mind), you notice that there gods to explain everything that is/was unexplained at that point in history. For instance, the Greek god Helios was said to pull the sun into the sky every day...which was used to explain the rising and setting of the sun before astronomy had been thoroughly researched. I find it quite interesting that the Big Bang Theory is currently being studied because the creation of the universe is one of the last big unexplained things that religion is used to explain.

* I used the word "theory" because I realize that this post will be highly offensive to some people, and that is not my intention. I just wanted to discuss the impression that I get that engineers seem to have a tendency towards being non-religious, and hear other peoples' reasons for either being religious or not.

I don't know if you have any statistics to back this up, but I personally know as many religious scientists and engineers as atheists or agnostics.

First, the fact that you seem to indicate that Hinduism is a modern religion when it is at least six centuries old, and the beginnings of Hinduism may predate the birth of Christ by over 1000 years or something like that, maybe you haven't really looked much into any of this. Hinduism has many meanings, but I'm not going to go into that right now.

Your post isn't offensive to me, although I am religious, primarily because I am used to this type of arrogance from of a lot of atheists who for some reason seem to believe they are smarter than everyone else, with very little evidence.. THere is nothing more nonsensical to me than people who think they are more intelligent than someone else becuase they lack faith. I will put my IQ and logical capabilities up against 99% of atheists out there. I know a lot of morons who are atheists, and there are a lot of idiots who believe as well. But it seems like it is always some atheist who thinks they are smarter than everyone else, and for some reason feel like bringing up their religion of "atheism", for which they have no proof, constantly.

There are bad things associated with many religions, but religion has been a force for tremendous good in the world as well. Are you aware of the trmendous coercive force of the atheistic regimes of the world? This far surpases anything religion has ever created. Since people will argue (incorrectly I believe) that Nazism was a religious movement, I'll forget that one. How about communism, which is expressly atheistic. This brought us Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Vietnamese regime, Castro. Oh yeah, these groups don't gain power over anyone.

Well, I'm not going to go into all the good religion has done, I suspect it would be a waste of time. It is just funny that it is always some atheist who feels like gracing us with their opinion on religion.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I think a person's religious beliefs are their own business and I will nto discuss mine, or ask anyone to discuss theirs. but to more direclty address your question, this is from the wikipedia page on atheism:

I understand and respect that. Thanks for the snippet...that is an interesting article.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I don't know if you have any statistics to back this up, but I personally know as many religious scientists and engineers as atheists or agnostics.
First, the fact that you seem to indicate that Hinduism is a modern religion when it is at least six centuries old, and the beginnings of Hinduism may predate the birth of Christ by over 1000 years or something like that, maybe you haven't really looked much into any of this. Hinduism has many meanings, but I'm not going to go into that right now.

Your post isn't offensive to me, although I am religious, primarily because I am used to this type of arrogance from of a lot of atheists who for some reason seem to believe they are smarter than everyone else, with very little evidence.. THere is nothing more nonsensical to me than people who think they are more intelligent than someone else becuase they lack faith. I will put my IQ and logical capabilities up against 99% of atheists out there. I know a lot of morons who are atheists, and there are a lot of idiots who believe as well. But it seems like it is always some atheist who thinks they are smarter than everyone else, and for some reason feel like bringing up their religion of "atheism", for which they have no proof, constantly.

There are bad things associated with many religions, but religion has been a force for tremendous good in the world as well. Are you aware of the trmendous coercive force of the atheistic regimes of the world? This far surpases anything religion has ever created. Since people will argue (incorrectly I believe) that Nazism was a religious movement, I'll forget that one. How about communism, which is expressly atheistic. This brought us Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, the Vietnamese regime, Castro. Oh yeah, these groups don't gain power over anyone.

Well, I'm not going to go into all the good religion has done, I suspect it would be a waste of time. It is just funny that it is always some atheist who feels like gracing us with their opinion on religion.

Actually, I brought up Hinduism because it is one of the few polytheistic religions that are still practiced, so I meant "modern" in the way that it is still in practice, not that it was recently invented.

I do find the tone of your post fascinating though. Upon rereading my post, I admit that it comes across as me attacking the foundations of religion like an atheist would, but that is just because I have a lot of atheistic friends, so I hear that stuff repeated a lot. I am more non-religious, maybe leaning towards agnostic. My parents tried to force religion on me as a child, which caused me to reject it once I went to college. Recently, I have been trying to figure out what I believe, and have been investigating it a lot (contrary to your assertion).

There is only one thing about religion that I can't stand, and that is when people try to force their religion on somebody else, so I'm honestly sorry if my post struck you that way.

 

[Dleg]

I've made the argument here before, partly for fun and partly serious, that atheism is just as much a "belief" as any religion. This is because an atheist is choosing to believe that there is no God - the atheist ignores that science has so far not proven the situation either way. The origin of the universe remains a mystery. A purely rational person (and therefore an intelligent person?), I have argued before, would choose to just remain undecided, rather than jumping to the conclusion that there is no God or creator.

(And yes, of the many self-proclaimed "atheists" I have known, many were just as obnoxious in pushing their views as any religious zealot I ahve ever encountered. At least the Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses walk away when I tell them I'm not interested.)

 

[benbo]

Actually, I brought up Hinduism because it is one of the few polytheistic religions that are still practiced, so I meant "modern" in the way that it is still in practice, not that it was recently invented.
I do find the tone of your post fascinating though. Upon rereading my post, I admit that it comes across as me attacking the foundations of religion like an atheist would, but that is just because I have a lot of atheistic friends, so I hear that stuff repeated a lot. I am more non-religious, maybe leaning towards agnostic. My parents tried to force religion on me as a child, which caused me to reject it once I went to college. Recently, I have been trying to figure out what I believe, and have been investigating it a lot (contrary to your assertion).

There is only one thing about religion that I can't stand, and that is when people try to force their religion on somebody else, so I'm honestly sorry if my post struck you that way.

OK. Sorry if I reacted badly. My main beef is not with the correlation between science or intelligence (or reverse correlation). Actually, it appears those studies Dleg presented may show some sort of reverse correlation. I'd have to look into it further because I know Shermer for one is a known antagonist to religion. But it may very well be true that most scientists and engineers are atheists. I don't know, and I don't know the reason.

My main beef is with the canard that religion is responsible for all the evil and corruption in the world. I hear that all the time and it is tiresome. People are responsible for all the evil in the world, and some of them are religious. But the atheists have done more than their fair share.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

OK. Sorry if I reacted badly. My main beef is not with the correlation between science or intelligence (or reverse correlation). Actually, it appears those studies Dleg presented may show some sort of reverse correlation. I'd have to look into it further because I know Shermer for one is a known antagonist to religion. But it may very well be true that most scientists and engineers are atheists. I don't know, and I don't know the reason.
My main beef is with the canard that religion is responsible for all the evil and corruption in the world. I hear that all the time and it is tiresome. People are responsible for all the evil in the world, and some of them are religious. But the atheists have done more than their fair share.

Understood...and I see how you got that from my first post. I really didn't mean it that way. And I agree with DLeg that atheists can be pushier than members of various religions when it comes to discussing the topic...which is why you and I know all of these same arguments.

I believe politicians and all-consuming government is responsible for far more evil in the world than religion. But I also believe that religion is used at a lot of inappropriate times by people with a great deal of power to try to bend the populace to their will (i.e. both Dubya and Palin saying that the War in Iraq is "God's Plan").

I just had a perception that most of my engineer friends seemed to trend away from religion while the general public seem to trend toward religion. It seems that the topic has already been investigated, and my perception has at least some truth to it.

 

[EM_PS]

Well, since we have thoroughly discussed politics, I figured we should hit on the other office taboo subject...religion.

Had to spring this one on a Sunday Wilheld?

I think this phenomenon stems from the scientific mindset of engineers. We look for logical and/or plausible explanations for why things are the way they are. A mythical being that you can't hear or see creating things out of thin air, granted with the powers of omniscience and omnipotence just doesn't seem to jive with our mentality.

Well, i fall in the religious category. I disagree that there is a "phenomenon" at work here - you're just as likely to see the secular / religious skew in ditchdiggers or metal shop & foundry workers - probably moreso; as a matter of fact, it could be easily argued that a non-scientific mind or non-intelligence jives with a non-religious mentality. A final point, at least on atheism is that you're out on a longer branch in your effort to not believe - the sheer proliferation of religion or spiritualism thru history & literature runs profoundly counter to your belief (non-belief?) structure.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Had to spring this one on a Sunday Wilheld?

Heh...it never occurred to me. I was just perusing the board and found a post about God being the greatest engineer of all time. It sorta clicked with me because I just drove back from homecoming today where I had talked to my aforementioned atheist friends.

Well, i fall in the religious category. I disagree that there is a "phenomenon" at work here - you're just as likely to see the secular / religious skew in ditchdiggers or metal shop & foundry workers - probably moreso; as a matter of fact, it could be easily argued that a non-scientific mind or non-intelligence jives with a non-religious mentality. A final point, at least on atheism is that you're out on a longer branch in your effort to not believe - the sheer proliferation of religion or spiritualism thru history & literature runs profoundly counter to your belief (non-belief?) structure.

As DLeg posted before (from the wiki article about atheism), there does seem to be a phenomenon at work here...

An inverse correlation between religiosity and intelligence has been found by 39 studies carried out between 1927 and 2002, according to an article in Mensa Magazine. These findings broadly agree with a 1958 statistical meta-analysis by Professor Michael Argyle of the University of Oxford. He analyzed seven research studies that had investigated correlation between attitude to religion and measured intelligence among school and college students from the U.S. Although a clear negative correlation was found, the analysis did not identify causality but noted that factors such as authoritarian family background and social class may also have played a part.

Where I made the mistake is falsely assigning causality between intelligence and lack of religion. In fact, the last sentence in the quoted section above seems to fit my situation better. By forcing me to go to church, my parents inadvertently caused me to reject what they wanted me to believe.

 

[engineergurl]

Oh this might be fun.... I'm game...

I am TOTALLY Catholic.... my thoughts... the bible said he did it in 7 days... but how long is a day to GOD? go on guys.... give me crap....lol.

Although I do want to mention one of the most greatest professors in the world. My Botany professor acknowledged us and taught ALL the aspects of eveolution in class... great man anyway, but that made him greater in my mind and he really did teach me to learn a logical balance between science and religion in my own way.

On a side note, this topic mentioned that this subject was taboo... soooooo what do you do if you are a beliver in something (anything, mind you) and someone trashes it at work? Just curious.....

MUAH, and I'll shut up now!

 

[wilheldp_PE]

Oh this might be fun.... I'm game...
I am TOTALLY Catholic.... my thoughts... the bible said he did it in 7 days... but how long is a day to GOD? go on guys.... give me crap....lol.

That is actually one of the most compelling arguments that I have heard for religious creationism. A "day" mentioned in the Bible could be an eon to us. That kind of bridges the disconnect between the carbon dating of material that is several billions of years old and the literal time line of the Earth's existence derived from the Bible.

On a side note, this topic mentioned that this subject was taboo... soooooo what do you do if you are a beliver in something (anything, mind you) and someone trashes it at work? Just curious.....

I dunno about that one. I don't usually even try to avoid talking about politics because it is so invasive these days that it would be hard to never talk about it...you would have to consciously avoid the topic. Plus, most of the time, you can end up agreeing to disagree about politics.

Religion is just...different for some reason. Usually the only people that will openly discuss religion are trying to force you to accept their beliefs. I just like to talk about it because I think it is a very interesting topic of discussion. I like to take a step back and look at different religions, their different belief structures, the history of religions, and interactions between religions. Even if you don't believe what others believe, I still think it's possible to have a stimulating discussion about religion.

 

[Enginnneeer]

Well, since we have thoroughly discussed politics,

Oh this might be fun.... I'm game....

oh boy, this may be more interesting than talking about the recent politics...

I know of engineers who send their kids to private schools, camps or youth activities. This includes jewish, catholic, and christian. I usually learn this because someone cant have lunch or the next meeting on a certain day or time because of their kid's game or some kind of event.... I have met some engineers, mostly younger, that dont seem active in church activities except the volunteering to build or repair houses sponsored by some type of church. I have known students in engineering that some are church going and some not. In college I was voted in to the committee and even did a few retreats with my church group on campus...though several semesters my lab nights did get in the way of several church social events that kept me from participating, unlike my non-science friends. I sometimes would still go after the event to finish the cleanup since the group would hang afterwards...if I was lucky they usually saved some food for me.

 

[maryannette]

I am a Christian engineer. I know a lot of Christian engineers. I only know a few atheists/agnotstics. None of them are engineers.

 

[DVINNY]

On a side note, this topic mentioned that this subject was taboo... soooooo what do you do if you are a beliver in something (anything, mind you) and someone trashes it at work? Just curious.....

You could tell them that it is not an appropriate discussion for the workplace since those discussions usually end with bad feelings.

I am a Christian engineer. I know a lot of Christian engineers. I only know a few atheists/agnotstics. None of them are engineers.

DITTO.

And to add to Dleg's comment, I too notice the "non-believers" trying to 'justify' their non-belief. They even make stories like the one above that shows how the smarter one is, the more likely they are to also not believe.

As far as religion, if a person's religion makes them a better person in the way they treat others and themselves and how they approach this crazy world we live in, then their religion is a GREAT thing. I can't argue it at all.

and isn't that the point?

 

[sehad]

I'm a Christian engineer, as are most of the engineers that I know personally. I think it's a matter of location. From my observations, most athiests or like minded people are from the Northern region. Very few are from the Southern region. I'm from the South, just about everyone down here belongs to some type of religion. Those that are non-practicing members of their church are usually teenager to young adults (and some older at that) that are more interested in seeing what is out there and experimenting just as I was when I started college. Sad to say that most "christians" are not tolerant of those that are not. Which surprises me, because most of Jesus's ministry while he was on Earth was to those that were considered scum and the dogs of that time.

Sad to say that most, and at times I know I am included in this number, that claim to be christians simply claim to be. To be a christian is reflected in the way you live your life. The very meaning of christian is Christ-like. What you say you are and how you act can be TOTALLY different. To me, being a christian is not a statement, but it is a lifestyle. Just my two cents.

I guess it sums it up now that I am a Christian. I have friends from several different religions. I have a few friends that are athiest. I have a few that don't know what they believe yet.

 

[MA_PE]

Obviously, religion is a personal preference and IMHO isn't great fodder for forum boards. I find fanaticism annoying on any front and religion is certainly a subject where you find zealots/fanatics.

It's my view that the fundamental tenet of all worthwhile religions is to treat others the way that you want others to treat you. Catholics call it the Golden Rule. If everyone believed and practiced that philosophy the world would be a better place. Unfortunately people are human so they don't.

 

[RIP - VTEnviro]

It's my view that the fundamental tenet of all worthwhile religions is to treat others the way that you want others to treat you.

I'm down with that!

And yeah I too agree that religion and politics and things like that aren't great stuff to hash out on a message board. Turns into a flame war real quick.

 

[EM_PS]

you guys are pussies! :joke:

While discussing the origins of the universe, my physics professor would say w/ a half-smirk "you know, Something cannot come from Nothing! It violates the very rules of every kind of physics we know" - whether that was a nod towards 'a grand architect' or not wasn't entirely clear, but i took it to be meaning there is no slam-dunk dismissal of the case for the Creator, no matter how much science you wanna throw at it.

From one of the greatest thinkers of recent history, his views on religion:

Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."[55] In his book The World as I See It, he wrote: "A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

He is also credited w/ the quote of "science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."