My Iran strategy

[mudpuppy]

Our society is not delusional or brought up from birth to have it in for a country or culture, as they are (once upon a time we may have been).

Do you really think this is true?

You think that 70 million citizens of Iran are brought up from birth to hate Western culture?

And on the flip side of your statement, you really think all Americans are no longer brought up to blindly hate others? I know of plenty of examples of parents talking openly about "towel-heads" and "darkies" in front of their kids--and that has to sink in in their impressionable minds.

And to follow your logic, when our society was delusional, as you admit it may have been, it would have been ok for someone else to "f#ck the f#cking f#ckers"--the "f#ckers" being us in that case? Do unto others, right?

 

[benbo]

Do you really think this is true?
You think that 70 million citizens of Iran are brought up from birth to hate Western culture?

And on the flip side of your statement, you really think all Americans are no longer brought up to blindly hate others? I know of plenty of examples of parents talking openly about "towel-heads" and "darkies" in front of their kids--and that has to sink in in their impressionable minds.

And to follow your logic, when our society was delusional, as you admit it may have been, it would have been ok for someone else to "f#ck the f#cking f#ckers"--the "f#ckers" being us in that case? Do unto others, right?

While I am not for nuking an entire country (I think Dleg was saying this tongue in cheek), and there are certainly bigots in this country, you can't seriously be comparing the US to Iran? You are aware that since the revolution, Iran is basically under Sharia law and run by religious mullahs? I believe that homosexulaity is illegal in Iran, which doesn't really matter I guess since that their president recently claimed there were no homosexuals in the country, among other outrageous things, lke that the holocaust never happened. And I certainly don't think there is anything like gender equaliy in that country.

 

[mudpuppy]

No, of course I'm not trying to say the U.S. is as bad as Iran. But I don't think things are as clear-cut and simple as EM was saying either. As you point out, the people of Iran are oppressed--does that mean they all should be nuked? Along the same lines, should the U.S., including all its inhabitants, have been nuked in the 1840s because we oppressed the slaves? My point is our beef is with the government of Iran, not the general populace and I don't see why we need to take our frustrations out on the general populace. I may be misunderstanding, but that's what it sounds like EM is saying and I just want to clarify that point (because I really don't think that's what he meant).

 

[Slugger926]

Our society is not delusional or brought up from birth to have it in for a country or culture, as they are (once upon a time we may have been).

Exactly, and people here don't understand that. I have one friend from Iran whose eyes glaze over and turns to pure hate if you mention the Kurds or Israel. This guy is suposedly Christian too (which I will leave to the only judge for judgement.)

The whole region is like that.

 

[EM_PS]

Do you really think this is true?
You think that 70 million citizens of Iran are brought up from birth to hate Western culture?

And on the flip side of your statement, you really think all Americans are no longer brought up to blindly hate others? I know of plenty of examples of parents talking openly about "towel-heads" and "darkies" in front of their kids--and that has to sink in in their impressionable minds.

And to follow your logic, when our society was delusional, as you admit it may have been, it would have been ok for someone else to "f#ck the f#cking f#ckers"--the "f#ckers" being us in that case? Do unto others, right?

I knew I'd take heat for this - What I believe is that the vast majority of Iranians (middle east in general) are conditioned or programmed to despise western culture; that's pretty much how their media works over there. My f-bomb statement simply referred to the question of "if someone from Iran saw this thread what would you expect them to think?" why would i care what a barbaric militant extremist society thinks of what i say or write? They already hate me & my :unitedstates:

- just my opinion dude, nothing more, nothing less

 

[rdbse]

My point earlier is that this thread does not represent the United States of America as the democratic nation full of loving people that I know. The comments come across as arrogant and undermine our position as the moral authority in the world.

 

[Dleg]

Good thing this is in the secret room then, eh?

Don't worry, when I address the UN general assembly tomorrow, I'll tone it down....

 

[Dleg]

All right, now that I have gotten the sarcasm out my system, think about it: Our own president is doing just that^^ anyway - threatening to attack Iran over the same issue. I believe he has even mentioned nuclear weapons, or at least hinted at it. At any rate, a reluctance to use politicaly incorrect nukes only means that our president's threats range anywhere from a small surgical strike using conventional weapons, to all out invasion. Either way is pretty serious.

I never said we should nuke the whole country. Just their weapons plant. Would that be worse than a full-scale invasion? 5 years of bloody, intractable conflict? Fallout doesn't even have to be an issue, if we use ground-penetrating devices (my air-burst comment was somewhat tongue-in-cheek). Bascially, we would only contaminate the immediate area, which is probably already contaminated anyway (last I heard, Iran EPA wasn't operating a very effective pollution prevention program)

Of course, "deterrance" also usually includes the fear that we would nuke the whole country. And once they develop nuclear weapons and deploy them, probably inside the compounds of elementary schools, knowing their sense of "honor", then we would of course have to expand the threat. But don't think that is not the America you know and love - we had (maybe still have) tens of thousands of nucelar weapons aimed and armed and ready to fire at every Russian man, woman, and child for a good 50 years. And because of that, they never sent their nukes over to kill all our men, women, and children... And neither did we...

All I'm saying is that if the government of Iran wants to play the nuclear game, maybe they need to be educated as to what that game entails...

 

[Capt Worley PE]

My FIL worked in Saudi for close to 25 years. They hate us. They want us all dead. No lie.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

My FIL worked in Saudi for close to 25 years. They hate us. They want us all dead. No lie.

Try to think of the Arab nations in the Middle East as a sort of United States of Islam (USI) for a moment (I know, it's hard since they have essentially been at "civil war" for decades, but just bear with me). How would you feel about the USI had helped Canada invade and occupy Maine, both financially and forcefully? The Canadians moved into Mainers' houses, and forced them to either flee the state, or live in a refugee camp. Then, the USI helps New Canada build one of the most powerful militaries in the world in order to maintain the occupation. Then, every so often, the USI decides that they don't like the way a Governor of a particular state in the USA is running the government, so they invade the state and set up a puppet government in its place.

How much of that BS do you think you could stand before you began to resent every man, woman, and child in the USI? Now you know where the deep-seated hatred from the USA comes from in the Middle East.

 

[Capt Worley PE]

How much of that BS do you think you could stand before you began to resent every man, woman, and child in the USI? Now you know where the deep-seated hatred from the USA comes from in the Middle East.

Actually, I wouldn't hate anyone in the USI. I would have a problem with the Canadians, but even then, I wouldn't hate every man, woman and child. But that is the way they think.

According to FIL, unless we begin to think the way they do, we won't get it until it is too late. I won't go into details, but some of the stuff he has been saying since I met him back in 98 looks to be falling into place. I blew it all off as paraniod BS until the last few years, now I think he may have been right all along.

 

[FusionWhite]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/06/03...ices/index.html

This is just funny to me. For 30+ years now OPEC has been using their natural resources which we desire (oil and natural gas) as economic weapons. Now that food prices are out of control (hey they're out of control for us too), suddenly its the Western countries (where most of the worlds food is grown) using our natural resources (all that rich fertile soil) to the detriment of poor countries. Its the very definition of irony. The US mid-west isnt known as the Saudi Arabia of corn for nothing.

The fact that Mugabe is also complaining is ironic because up until he took over Zimabawe was considered the "bread basket of Africa". It has vast tracts of fertile land which was very efficiently and successfully farmed. However he took the land from experienced farmers and handed it over to his cronies and now the whole damn country is in the shitter.

 

[benbo]

Try to think of the Arab nations in the Middle East as a sort of United States of Islam (USI) for a moment (I know, it's hard since they have essentially been at "civil war" for decades, but just bear with me). How would you feel about the USI had helped Canada invade and occupy Maine, both financially and forcefully? The Canadians moved into Mainers' houses, and forced them to either flee the state, or live in a refugee camp. Then, the USI helps New Canada build one of the most powerful militaries in the world in order to maintain the occupation. Then, every so often, the USI decides that they don't like the way a Governor of a particular state in the USA is running the government, so they invade the state and set up a puppet government in its place.
How much of that BS do you think you could stand before you began to resent every man, woman, and child in the USI? Now you know where the deep-seated hatred from the USA comes from in the Middle East.

What exactly is "financial" occupation? I understand we back the Royal Family (which hates us as well), but where exactly in Saudi Arabia have we or anyone else forced people to flee or live in refugee camps? Or Iran? We're in charge there? In Lebanon and Syria the US set up the dictators? All this is news to me. I didn't realize the bin Laden family was so oppressed by the US.

And if you are directing your hatred towards Isreal, and referencing the Palestinians, exactly which of the neighboring Arab states, none of which are friendly to the United States, is welcoming mass amounts of Palestininians ?

Oh, and by the way, the US and Isreal are both democracies where you can post stuff like this, as opposed to virtually all of the countries in the Middle East.

 

[BluSkyy]

I have this (CLICK HERE) to say about robert mugabe.

 

[Sschell]

Try to think of the Arab nations in the Middle East as a sort of United States of Islam (USI) for a moment (I know, it's hard since they have essentially been at "civil war" for decades, but just bear with me).

Decades? yeah, hundreds of decades.

 

[EM_PS]

Decades? yeah, hundreds of decades.

Milennia (ME's don't need no jibber-jabber tech jargon anyway) - those issues are biblical (literally) - that was, is, and always will be the "Israel" that has fought and continues to fight for its existence. Its not quite the 'Campbells condensed soup' version as may be implied here. . . .

 

[Sschell]

Milennia (ME's don't need no jibber-jabber tech jargon anyway)

I didn't want to repeat myself...

Our involvement in a religious turf war that has been going on for millenia is (in my opinion) unnecessary.

and I was pointing out that "decades" is correct, just that there have been several hundred of them... Just like today has lasted seconds, almost 60,000 seconds so far (on my coast).

neither of us spelled it right though... should be millennia.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

What exactly is "financial" occupation? I understand we back the Royal Family (which hates us as well), but where exactly in Saudi Arabia have we or anyone else forced people to flee or live in refugee camps? Or Iran? We're in charge there? In Lebanon and Syria the US set up the dictators? All this is news to me. I didn't realize the bin Laden family was so oppressed by the US.And if you are directing your hatred towards Isreal, and referencing the Palestinians, exactly which of the neighboring Arab states, none of which are friendly to the United States, is welcoming mass amounts of Palestininians ?

Oh, and by the way, the US and Isreal are both democracies where you can post stuff like this, as opposed to virtually all of the countries in the Middle East.

Financially and forcefully were adverbs of "helped", not adjectives of "occupation". We helped Israel with both money and arms throughout their overthrow of the Palestinians. Since Palestine was a primarily Muslim nation, and we supported the Jews in their conquest of that land, it really pissed off all of the other Muslim nations (i.e. Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.). I know there are a lot of Palestinian refugees in Syria and I believe that there are some in Egypt, but they are mostly in the regions of Palestine that weren't occupied by the Israelis.

 

[benbo]

Financially and forcefully were adverbs of "helped", not adjectives of "occupation". We helped Israel with both money and arms throughout their overthrow of the Palestinians. Since Palestine was a primarily Muslim nation, and we supported the Jews in their conquest of that land, it really pissed off all of the other Muslim nations (i.e. Iraq, Iran, Syria, etc.). I know there are a lot of Palestinian refugees in Syria and I believe that there are some in Egypt, but they are mostly in the regions of Palestine that weren't occupied by the Israelis.

I am not an expert on this, and certainly Isreal doesn't have 100% clean hands in everything, but I think your characterization is overly simplistic, and gives a huge amount of blame to Isreal as opposed to Egypt, Jordon, and Syria which are no real friends to the Palestinian people either. As far as I know, Palestine was never really a nation, but a region. Under control from various groups (Ottoman, English, etc) and ultimately given over to the UN to partition when Jews began settling in the region. Around 1949 or so, after those long wars between the Arab states and Isreal, the UN attempted to create a Palestinian state but the Arab countries would not agree, and swept up a lot of the land themselves. And yes there are Palestinian refugees in those nations. In refugee camps because the wonderful Arab countries don't want them. THere are however, about a million "Palestinians" living in Isreal, as well as a few million in the West Bank and Gaza. And granted, the Palestinians in Isreal are not treated with 100% equality, and the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank live horribly, partly due to Isreal and partly due to their own government. A lot of the problems have to do with the radical Isrealis in the settlements, but I think they have basically left Gaza and now only inhabit the West Bank. But like I said, I'm no expert.

I will say that I think the treatment of the Palestinians is just an excuse by many of the Arab and Central Asian countries for their hatred of the west. Even my Somalian muslim coworker says those countries are extremely oppressive, expecially to women.

 

[wilheldp_PE]

I'm not trying to paint Middle Eastern countries as the victims here. All I'm doing is saying that I can certainly understand why they would resent us, and our constant meddling in their affairs. I have heard all of the arguments about how horrible the oppressive regimes in the Middle East are, and I don't disagree. But if America wants to play World Police, why didn't we get involved in Rwanda, or Darfur, or any of the other African civil wars where the people were being raped and killed by armies? Why did we invade Viet Nam to end communism there, but we did virtually nothing to end the reign of Pol Pot in Cambodia?

Sure there may be other motives for people in the Middle East to hate us, but there are also other reasons why we keep invading their countries.