Mortgage Providers

[Road Guy]

never had an issue with the mortgages being sold, local, NY bank, I don't really care, just want the best rate and terms..

 

[mudpuppy]

On another note, anyone know anything about flood insurance?  One of the properties we're looking at is partially in the flood plain.  It looks like the house itself is outside "Area A" but is right on the very edge.  Not sure who makes the determination whether the house needs high risk flood insurance and if not if it's eligible for low risk flood insurance.

 

[snickerd3]

probably the insurance company?

 

[mudpuppy]

I think the mortgage company hires someone to determine this--I remember paying a fee for the determination when I bought my house, but I don't remember who they hired to do it.  I'd like to find out if we'd need it before making an offer.

 

[Road Guy]

You could just add that in as a contingency item.

You should be able to locate what is called a F I RM map for your county that should help you determine if your house is in a floodplain or a flood way.

 

[Ship Wreck PE]

Just pay cash and you won't need any ole flood insurance.

 

[snickerd3]

so is the house you are looking at loads bigger than your old one?  

 

[csb]

The insurance company is merely a provider. The flood stuff is done by your friendly local government, who has to provide that info to FEMA every year. 

 

[mudpuppy]

The insurance company is merely a provider. The flood stuff is done by your friendly local government, who has to provide that info to FEMA every year. 

So I would need to talk to someone at the township?

As for snick's questions, no we haven't sold the house in GA yet, but we're getting close.  We're waiting on the results of the second FHA inspection after repairs were made.  So we're just looking at this point, but I'm trying to get things lined up for if/when the GA house closes.

And yes the places we're looking are much larger than my house (with a much bigger mortgage).

 

[csb]

Correct. They are also the people to change the map or grant variances. 

 

[Dleg]

By the time we signed our (VA) mortgage a couple weeks ago, it had gone through several different firms and ended up being owned by Wells Fargo. :dunno:  

 

[mudpuppy]

I happen to have a civil engineer friend who works as a consultant and a township engineer.  He says, "If the flood plain touches the property you are required to have flood insurance unless you hire a professional surveyor to determine if the house is above the 100 year flood plain."

 

[snickerd3]

^fun so you have to pay one way or another

 

[Road Guy]

Surveyors are pretty cheap though, especially in Michigan you could probably get it done for less than 1500 bucks

 

[K19]

The flood zone issue is a bit more involved. A "Zone A" designation indicates that it is the likely extent of the 1% annual chance (fka 100-year) flood, but FEMA has not established a flood elevation, at least one accurate enough to hang their hats on.  In contrast, areas where FEMA has determined the 1% floodplain through detailed study are designated "AE" with the base flood elevation indicated.

I'm less familiar with the legal mechanics of flood insurance, but it seems that when in doubt officials generally operate on the presumption that you're in the more stringent flood area unless you can demonstrate to the contrary.  So if you're toeing the line of a Zone A, you actually need a civil engineer as well to estimate the flood flows and depths occurring in the area (by accepted engineering methods) to then compare to the elevations of the structure/property.

I've done 4 or 5 of these studies myself and my general takeaway has been that FEMA is quite conservative when drawing up Zone A limits, i.e. even employing the most generous assumptions (rainfall/runoff, streamflow, etc.) calculated flood elevations rarely get close to the extents shown on a FIRM.  So yes, owner has to pay for survey and engineering, but it usually results in not having to pay for flood insurance year in/out.

 

[mudpuppy]

The flood zone issue is a bit more involved. A "Zone A" designation indicates that it is the likely extent of the 1% annual chance (fka 100-year) flood, but FEMA has not established a flood elevation, at least one accurate enough to hang their hats on.  In contrast, areas where FEMA has determined the 1% floodplain through detailed study are designated "AE" with the base flood elevation indicated.

I'm less familiar with the legal mechanics of flood insurance, but it seems that when in doubt officials generally operate on the presumption that you're in the more stringent flood area unless you can demonstrate to the contrary.  So if you're toeing the line of a Zone A, you actually need a civil engineer as well to estimate the flood flows and depths occurring in the area (by accepted engineering methods) to then compare to the elevations of the structure/property.

I've done 4 or 5 of these studies myself and my general takeaway has been that FEMA is quite conservative when drawing up Zone A limits, i.e. even employing the most generous assumptions (rainfall/runoff, streamflow, etc.) calculated flood elevations rarely get close to the extents shown on a FIRM.  So yes, owner has to pay for survey and engineering, but it usually results in not having to pay for flood insurance year in/out.

Thanks, that's really helpful.  The property I'm looking at is in Zone A so it seems I'll be in for a little more expense. It is adjacent to a Zone AE so I'm guessing that might make things a little easier?

Here's the map I'm looking at (click to enlarge)... the red arrow points to the house.

 

[K19]

So the property is along a tributary of what appears to be a major watercourse - it is helpful that the base elevations have been established along the latter through detailed study is beneficial, though how helpful... it really depends on what tools an engineer in your area has to work with. Assuming the tributary is ungauged, one would need to estimate peak flow at this point along the tributary by other methods - I'd first look at FEMA's Flood Insurance Study (these are the publicly available reports describing how the FEMA maps were developed) for the major watercourse to see what's published for catchment areas and computed flows (both upstream and downstream of the confluence), then to see if their are any relatively recent USGS regional regression models for estimating flows in ungauged catchments.  After that there is the matter of evaluating the hydraulics of the watercourse, controls (e.g. culverts), etc. to determine the flood elevations associated with those peak flows, which can range from simple to very complex.  If you already have a surveyor ask them if they have an engineer that they call upon for this sort of work, and see if they can give you a quote. HTH!

 

[mudpuppy]

So the property is along a tributary of what appears to be a major watercourse - it is helpful that the base elevations have been established along the latter through detailed study is beneficial, though how helpful... it really depends on what tools an engineer in your area has to work with. Assuming the tributary is ungauged, one would need to estimate peak flow at this point along the tributary by other methods - I'd first look at FEMA's Flood Insurance Study (these are the publicly available reports describing how the FEMA maps were developed) for the major watercourse to see what's published for catchment areas and computed flows (both upstream and downstream of the confluence), then to see if their are any relatively recent USGS regional regression models for estimating flows in ungauged catchments.  After that there is the matter of evaluating the hydraulics of the watercourse, controls (e.g. culverts), etc. to determine the flood elevations associated with those peak flows, which can range from simple to very complex.  If you already have a surveyor ask them if they have an engineer that they call upon for this sort of work, and see if they can give you a quote. HTH!

Definitely helps, thanks!  I do have a local civil engineer friend that might be able to work on this.  There is a "LOMA" listed on the house a couple properties down, in the same Zone A--would this be of any use in making the flood elevation determination?

 

[Road Guy]

You mean LOMR -letter of map revision?

The fema stuff really is fairly specialized, I would really want someone who "does that for a living" to do the calcs if it were me...

I deal with it on a lot of roadway jobs but i don't actually "run the numbers". So I wouldn't do it myself (as a civil)

Do you know when the house was built and are there any plans on file that may have the 100 year flood elevations on it? Looks like either someone put the house just outside the floodplain or someone tweaked the floodplain to

Not include the house..

If it's close and u really like the house (looks very nice from the aerial) I would not skimp on the insurance.. If there is a flood the only help anyone will offer you (without flood insurance). Is a low rate loan to make the repairs so you can still pay the note.. I watched people scrape mud out of there living rooms during the Colorado floods in 2013 and even though they lived 100' from Boulder Creek "canyon" they opted against flood insurance.. It was a very humbling experience to see..

 

[mudpuppy]

The house was built in 1978, not sure if there are any plans filed with the township.  Agreed that it looks like they may have deliberately placed the house just outside the flood plain.  I would definitely get flood insurance if I bought this place.  I'm mainly trying to determine if the house is for sure in Zone A or not, because the premiums are very different from what I've read.  I don't think I'd buy it if it requires Zone A flood insurance (could be $thousands/year).  We love everything else about it (37 acres, mostly wooded, two garages, huge kitchen, two pole barns, greenhouse, built in dog kennels, two ponds, wood burning boiler, hot tub, concrete driveway, etc.)

The engineer I know here does a lot of work with waterfront property and has experience with dams, so I put in the question if he could do the calcs or if he knows someone.  On the other hand, we haven't talked to the owners yet, so perhaps they already have done this.  In either case, I'm learning a lot here on EB about flood zones so this has been very helpful.

I've got a meeting set up with a real estate agent, and hoping to get a showing next week.