Ethics & side jobs

[Dleg]

There is an environmental agency in a neighboring "state", which I will not name, that routinely allows its employees to conduct side work as consultants in other island territories and nations, including mine. Sometimes I get kind of irritated by it, and other times I get a little more than irritated.

Tell me if you think the following "side jobs" are ethically questionable:

1. Working routinely outside your state for a large, un-named US environmental consulting firm, collecting samples (wastewater, landfill leachate, etc.) as a "monitoring" contractor. This only slightly irritates me, but only because I have to wonder how the guy's parent agency handles it. I mean, the guy can't possibly have that much vacation time - each sampling event takes a full day, with air travel included, and he does a couple a month.

2. Working routinely with one of the environmental consultants that you regulate in your own state, as a business partner in preparing environmental assessments for projects in other territories. This seems like a very clear ethics violation - you regulate your own business partner - yet there are at least two guys at that agency that do this regularly - one a P.E., and another just a "scientist."

3. Free-lancing as a "permitting consultant" outside your state and telling your clients that you can help get their permits because you have "contacts" and "influence" with the other territory's permitting agency, which you occasionally work with to administer certification exams. This one really pisses me off.

So am I just a jerk, or are these things really ethically questionable?

 

[tmckeon_PE]

As I am an independent contractor, I might not have these problems. But companies are in this business to make money and will use whatever means (within legal guidelines, we hope). As engineers, we have a personal responsibility to seek what is right and best (we are also held to seeing to the public safety and such as a legal requirement). Those that will do something outside these guidelines will have to answer at some time to themselves, the government, or to God Himself. If it is wrong, they will end up having to answer.

As to your question on whether to report them, the same standard applies; i.e., is the public safety at risk?, is the public well being currently being wronged?, do you feel an ethical obligation to do something about the situation?

Answer yes to any of the above and I think you need to say something. Even if you risk your job.

Tom

My two cents anyway...(though I think engineers should behave this way).

 

[Dleg]

I haven't really thought about reporting anyone.... Unfortunately, I have a somewhat collaborative relationship with one or two of these guys in our "real" work, and in the balance, continuing that relationship probably outweighs my distaste for their extracurricular behavior.

But I wonder if I were doing the same thing in their "state", (if I even could - their licensing law was recently revised to require residency to even practice) , would they be pissed and report me? Maybe not, I suppose - something wrong always feels less wrong when others are doing it, I suppose.

I've talked about these things with my boss and coworkers, and none of us think it is right. But in an inter-state arrangement like this, what rules would even govern?

 

[Guest]

Dleg --

These are vey interesting questions indeed. Before providing any response, I would like to make a subtle or maybe not so subtle point.

*** RANT ON ***

The industry that you and I work in is very much information driven - a healthy understanding of the regulatory framework is tantamount! I have argued on a number of occasions that the very nature of a person's understanding of this regulatory framework can oft times outweigh the technical contributions that said person can make. More simply stated - there are a lot of technically non-proficient people that work in our field, but they still thrive. Why?? Because COMPLIANCE with the regulations is more important than achieving a 'technical' objective.

So Dleg, what makes people like you and I valuable ?? Because we hold the keys (knowledge) to the bottom line.

*** RANT OFF ***

Okay, so addressing each of the situations you presented:

1. There is a lady (degreed engineer) in my office that receives grants through EPA for solid waste technology transfer exchanges with Central America. In this capacity she is serving as a contractor for EPA to work out solid waste regulatory issues in Central America. In my opinion, relationships like this are acceptable as long as it does not compromise the relationship with the client for 'other' projects managed under the primary job.

2. I think this situation is highly questionable because, at the very least, the perception is this relationship could 'influence' decisions in regulatory oversight. I have seen some examples in industry where the 'independence' of the contractor was a very, very thin line. So I think, professionally, this may be a tolerable situation; however, it should be highly discouraged since the perception of impropriety will always loom over such an arrangement. Ultimately it is up to each persons' tolerance to answer to whether thier ethical obligations have been upheld based on the relationship and work.

3. On the surface, this one may seem 'tasteless', but the truth of the matter is that when a client is looking at a consultant's qualifications, a major consideration for that client is how well can the consultant 'navigate' the regulatory waters. To be a little more blunt about it, time is money and any time (money) savings that can be realized through a consultant's contact network becomes an important element in the permitting process. This one sounds like more of an 'approach' issue more than ethical considerations.

Now let me present one to you that I am still shaking my head over. This is public information, so I am not 'leaking' information.

The former Secretary of Florida DEP was David Struhs (early 2000). He was heavily involved in a number of permitting-compliance issues during his tenure, because much like NMI, Florida is HEAVILY reliant upon tourism to generate revenue. One of the newsworthy administrative challenges regarded permitting waste discharges from a pulp-paper operation - the company was International Paper (IP). This industry has notoriously had numerous compliance issues and as such held responsible for environmental contamination issues.

The administrative challenge at hand involved whether a permit should be reissued for Industrial Waste (IW) discharges based on the facility's compliance history (amongst other things). Secretary Struhs was very involved in the process as you would expect with a highly politicized administrative challenge.

So ... after a lot of posturing, public statements, and finally statements of commitment to become better environmental stewards, the Department (FDEP) reissued the permit. Some felt that the Department made too many concessions based on IP's history. The court of public opinion is still out on this one.

Within one month of settling the administrative challenge with IP over the permitted IW discharge, Secretary Struhs resigned from FDEP and accepted a position of Vice President (Environmental Affairs) with IP. He is still working there as of today. At the time, my thinking was that the timing of the job acceptance was suspect, at a minimum. I was even more surprised that this arrangement did little more than raise a few eyebrows. Don't get me wrong .. I am NOT suggesting any impropriety - I am just providing you with another example where the ethics of the situation could be questionable.

It may shock you that this sort of arrangement is not an isolated case. It comes up often, especially now that the pay gap between regulators and consultants/industry is getting ever wider. I think the rule of thumb here is whether or not any advantage was 'gained' or 'given' based on the arrangement. Ultimately whether these situations constitute a breach of ethics is an individual decision, but as all things go ... it depends on your level of comfort if the same decision is placed upon someone else.

This is actually a very good topic Dleg. I would be interested in hearing others' thoughts about improving the understanding of ethical responsibilities for engineers, especially as it relates to 'marginal' situations.

JR

 

[SuperAlpha]

if it bothers you then there must be some merit to your concerns - investigate and report it if necessary....

 

[Guest]

Dleg --

Right now, ethics in state government is a HUGE issue for Florida. The Florida Legislature - two terms ago - passed sweeping reform regarding 'gifts' that can be received by government employees. The legislation primarily targeted employees in elected offices and state employees that are in politically appointed positions, but certainly this had ripple effects to the lower strata. One effect of that legislation is that I have gone from being able to accept a small meal (which I did only if it were a 'working' lunch and that this was done for the group and not specifically for me) to not being able to accept a cup of coffee without paying for it. I think the gift reforms were necessary, but I wish there were some 'common sense' approaches for the application.

I figured you must be wondering about Florida's policy regarding work as a regulator. I have heard, but not read, where Florida has a similar policy as NMI for work after separation from the State as a regulator. If that is true, I can say that the policy is certainly a policy on paper alone -- that goes all the way up to the Govenors Cabinet. There have been several instances (especially with the State's Technology Office) that have been riddled with scandal where people who were in a position of influence who having been responsible for negotiating contracts were allowed to accept employment with the firms who successfully won the contracts.

I can say a lot more about this .... but I think you get the picture. I think it is also getting off-topic, a tad.

I think if NMI's code of ethics state that one shall not accept employment with an entity you have regulated within 1 yr of separation of employment with the regulatory agency, then it is clear in each of those cases that those people are engaged in work they should not be performing.

My personal view on this is that there is not a breach of ethics as long as favor or undue benefit was not given. I say undue benefit because certainly there are times where regulators do make decisions that benefit the regulated entity. My personal view is based on a "common sense" approach; however, I can also appreciate the thought that the best way to discourage a breach in ethics is to not allow a person to enter a compromising position in the first place. I can see the argument from both sides.

Now the last part your comment is actually the most worrisome part for me. If someone's conduct is eroding the confidence of your office or possibly interfering with its' mission, then it is time for a measured response to the conduct. In the cases you have described, you indicated that these people were not NMI employees - it may be tough to do much more than point out suspicious behavior/activity.

JR

 

[tmckeon_PE]

JR made some good points and I just needed to post to stay ahead of him. This also serves as a :lmao: (though unneeded right now).

 

[cement]

it's the Florida spammer 500!

and JR takes the lead..

but now TM is closing fast!

 

[RleonPE]

JR is in the lead but TM is closing in.

 

[Guest]

Acceptance Speech: "I had a lot of help in spamming this board. I would first like to thank ... "

Just call me the B3 = bandwidth bandit

<------

JR

 

[tmckeon_PE]

Hey, I got to 500 first...

Acceptance speech:

The race goes on.

JR, you there?

"And the race is on and it looks like..."

Watch out for JR though

 

[Dleg]

You bastards.

Well, as long as you are going to hijack my thread, I might as well finish off my 300th.

 

[Dleg]

:whipping: :angry: 300!

But I must ask, is it ethical to post nonsense just to raise one's post count? I have always prided myself in pithy posts. Until now.

JR - can you find a smiley of a dog humping someone's leg?

 

[tmckeon_PE]

You bastards.
Well, as long as you are going to hijack my thread, I might as well finish off my 300th.

 

[tmckeon_PE]

:whipping: :angry: 300!
But I must ask, is it ethical to post nonsense just to raise one's post count? I have always prided myself in pithy posts. Until now.

JR - can you find a smiley of a dog humping someone's leg?

 

[Guest]

JR - can you find a smiley of a dog humping someone's leg?

It's not quite what you asked for, but will this work ??

JR

 

[Dleg]

no, but it's pretty damned funny - I think this one needs to stay around!

 

[tmckeon_PE]

no, but it's pretty damned funny - I think this one needs to stay around!

 

[tmckeon_PE]

For Dleg (note the covering of the eyes).

 

[Guest]

no, but it's pretty damned funny - I think this one needs to stay around!

You are going to make me work for this one ... I'll keep looking.

JR