Radon Detection

[TouchDown]

Alright - not specifically Engineering related, but technical...

Has anyone else had Radon testing done on their homes? My wife and I moved into a house 2.5 years ago, had the testing done on a whim by the real estate agent's suggestion (small investment made, for a potentially large dollar problem), 1 in 15 homes are found to have it...

So, we stepped up, found the home we were interested in purchasing has "borderline" high readings (2-6) pCi/L when measured over a 3 day span. EPA says it's actionable if above 4 pCu/L. And "recommends" you do something if it's over 2... So the previous owners were pissed, but they paid the $2k to get a Radon Mediation system installed (basically a hole in our unfinished space, with a fan exhausting out the roof - causes negative pressure under the slab and keeps the radon out of the basement)...

Nevertheless, we bought the house, thinking nothing more of it. Now within the span of about 4 weeks, we have both of our kids (3 and 5) which are healthy kids, each of them come down with pneumonia. WTF!

So, I'm calling the radon system company to come and inspect the function of our system, and to Retest ($75). I'm thinking of purchasing a $120 unit that is all the time testing, to monitor all year round, and see if it changes as fronts move through, etc.

Radon System on Amazon

Anyone dealt with this before? Seems reasonable to purchase a $120 unit for long term monitoring and tracking for my own comfort - plus, once I get it figured out on if I need to do anything extra on our home - I could loan it out to friends to test just to see where they are (since no-one else I know has ever had their homes tested).

Radon Risk Map

 

[TouchDown]

PS - here's the connection between pneumonia and Radon:

EPA doc

Note in the article I picked up on:

Chronic exposure to radon in humans and animals via inhalation has resulted in respiratory effects (chronic lung disease, pneumonia, fibrosis of the lung, decreased lung function), while animal studies have also reported effects on the blood and a decrease in body weights. (4)

 

[Dleg]

^^ Interesting. I hadn't heard of that before. But there are so many other things that can cause pneumonia.

According to my "Environmental Engineering" (Salvato) the cheap test kits you buy at the hardware store work just fine, but I guess they're not conitnuous.

We never imagined we would have radon problems out here in the islands, but over the past few years in Guam they have discovered that it is a big problem, mostly in the coral-limestone geology. The thicker the underlying limestone formation, the nigher the radon levels. No real good answers on why that is yet. A friend of mine in Guam now makes a lot of $$ on Radon mitigation, and he has measured levels in the schools there in the hundreds of pico Curies per liter (!!). I haven't heard of any increased pneumonia rates, but maybe I'll check around now.

 

[cement]

pneumonia is scary stuff. we left cushy jobs back east to get away from pollen and mold which induced ashma and chronic bronchitis in our kids. they havent been sick a day since, knock wood. are you also looking at other possible environmental triggers? do you have forced air? the ducts could be loaded with cat hair or something. we had the ducts cleaned when we got here and you could have made a large dog from the pile of hair and dust they pulled out. also black mold may be in the walls from an old spill or leak. you may want to get a mold testing kit. they work like the cheap radon kits, just leave them out for a few days, then seal them up and mail them to the lab. good luck and good hunting.

 

[TouchDown]

Cement - my wife has been asking to get our ducts cleaned for quite some time, maybe it's on the list once we get our tax return? We've wondered about mold - this past summer I had a basement leak around the city water line penetration, had to use hydraulic cement to patch it up and stop it, but the damaage was done. We can't go into our basement without our 2 HEPA filters running, if they are not on - then it's pretty smelly (not a heavy mold or wet smell, but just basement smelling).

Dleg - didn't notice Guam on the Radon map until you mentioned it, but there are parts of the island (looks like mostly north/east) that are real heavy.

Thanks guys. Anyone ever used the hardware store mold kits?

 

[Guest]

TD --

I have familiarity with indoor air quality issues as it pertains to radon, but more specifically volatile organic compounds (VOCs), especially trichloroethylene and vinyl chloride. Most of my experience has dealt with contaminated soils beneath buildings that entrained passive vapors into the building. The primary model on the market for evaluating indoor air quality is called the Johnson & Ettinger model - free at EPAs website, but your situation sounds a bit more involved than a plug-n-chug model.

I would first point out that radon, as a source of isn't so bad in terms of contact (dermal exposure), but is very bad for inhalation because the alpha particles damage the avioli in the lungs.

So, if you suspect there is an 'issue', you are better off investing in a vapor mitigation setup instead of prolonged monitoring. I see you quoted $2K for a radon mitigation system, but I thought they had gotten cheaper. I can ask around my compliance section since they deal with the 'getting back to compliance aspect.'

There are a lot of different opinions about mold - whether or not they are the 'true' culprit in many household indoor air issues. From some of the items listed in your previous post, I am very loathe to suggest anything short of consulting with someone from your local health department. It is easy to point at 'maybe' items - you want to know the source of your problem. There should be a section within the health department where you can call and at least get information + things to look for. Moreover, a lot of times, they may have $$ to help offset costs related to addressing some of these issues.

Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further.

JR

 

[TouchDown]

JR - on our existing mitigation system - I'm having the installer come to validate setup tomorrow, and am having them test again this week as well to confirm that it's working properly, or that the situation hasn't changed (ie. cracks in basement, etc. over the last 2 years since installation).

I was just hoping to do long term monitoring to "alarm" me if something changes - it would at least give me more of a response of testing the mitigation system against weather, etc. to make sure we have completely eliminated that source of our air quality issue.

I'll ping our local health dept to see what options they have to help me out. Thanks!

 

[cement]

TD- Do you have forced air heat? Is the furnace in the basement? that mildew is getting blown up to your living space then. Would the insurance co cover mold remediation? you may want to wall off the furnace area and duct in fresh air from outside,

 

[cement]

of course you have forced air. sorry about that. mold remediation may be as simple as drying the area out. get a dehumidifier and place it over a floor drain and have it run 24/7. you can also look at the grading of the landscape to help keep surface water from running down the basement walls and finding cracks in the wall and floor. the next step after that is a sump pump.

 

[TouchDown]

No real active water in basement now, anything there today, is just from moisture absorbtion into concrete, I'm assuming.

I've thought about doing something with controls for increasing outside are intake, vs. recycled air. We have furnace 20' from outside wall, and it'd be easy to install, the control would be the funny thing. The only drawback is that my wife / kids all have pretty serious allergies, so we like to keep the house locked up tight. Kind of hurts us from the Radon standpoint, though...

 

[mizzoueng]

When we bought our house we had it tested for Radon. The house is in a lower lying area so they thought we would be a little more suseptible to radon. But the test came back at like 1 or so, so no worries. Once we have kids I will test it again to see what has changed.

We did look at a house that had a problem with Radon, serious problem. Had 2, count them 2, remediation systems set up. The ones that are fans sucking the ground. This is one thing I do not understand, how are you going to put a negative, even slightly negative, pressure under the slab and draw all the radon to that spot where you vent it outside where it can fall back to the ground and drift down in your yard. Nice. Anyways, I didn't believe the owners when they said it was free of Radon, so we went with the house we have now.

Would it not be more beneficial to build a small platform on top of your slab, say 3/4" tall, then you could properly seal around the edges and leave a vent on the other side of the basement, you would pull a higher negative AND your floor would be warmer as it is not on the cold slab. Not a realistic idea, but one none the less. Would be an idea if you were building a house in an area that had historic issues with Radon.

 

[Guest]

mizzou --

The reason why vapors are entering the house in the first place are based on advection of the vapors becoming entrained into the living space due to the differential pressure between the house and the "outside". The vapors become entrained based on a number of factors, that can include

1) factors relating to operation of HVAC system including inadequate combustion or makeup air and unbalanced air supply and exhaust systems;

2) the use of fireplaces and other combustion sources, which results in venting of exhaust gases to the exterior;

3) the use of exhaust fans in bathrooms and kitchens;

4) higher temperatures indoors relative to outdoors during the heating season or as a result of solar radiation on rooftops; and

5) pressure exerted on the wall of a building caused by wind movement over the building (Bernoulli’s principle).

The combination of these actions/conditions results in a net convective flow of soil gas from the subsurface through the building foundation to the building interior. In order the overcome the net effect of all those influences, the vapor intrusion system works from the outside - in, instead of the other way around. Put another way, wouldn't you rather prevent any vapor from entering the home rather than work on capturing it once it is inside the home ??

:waitwall:

JR

 

[TouchDown]

JR - so does the vapor intrusion system just put your house at a slight positive pressure?

 

[Guest]

JR - so does the vapor intrusion system just put your house at a slight positive pressure?

That's correct, because the pressure differential is very, very minimal. You just want it to point out (away) from your house instead of in

JR