Passing rate repeat civil PE

[ipswitch]

Anybody with some insight as to why the passing rate for repeat takers is so low?

 

[bbrams]

Anybody with some insight as to why the passing rate for repeat takers is so low?

My guess is that part of the reason is that there is a smaller sample size. Also people are probably less likely to study when taking it again. There probably is a certain percentage that will never pass as well.

 

[ALBin517]

Anybody with some insight as to why the passing rate for repeat takers is so low?

Also people are probably less likely to study when taking it again. There probably is a certain percentage that will never pass as well.

I had a couple coworkers who studied together. One pass on that first attempt. The other failed and quit studying. But he kept taking the test every six months, with no studying. After the first time, he said it was "just luck" to get the test questions that reflected his strengths. He ended up passing on his 4th or 5th attempt.

But I think most retakers fail because they aren't serious / prepared the first time or any time thereafter. One of my good friends took it the first time with just the CERM. The second time, he had three books. By the third attempt, he had all the recommended references and was familiar with them. I think he passed that time or the next.

 

[sac_engineer]

I believe the low passing rate by repeat takers is not reflective of the person's understanding of engineering, but more about how he/she prepares for the exam. The majority of engineers are analytical and like to solve things without time constraints; however, when you're only given 6 minutes per question, no one has the luxury of time to complete the exam at their leisure. I do agree that failing the exam is discouraging and some ambition or desire has diminished among repeat takers, but I have seen people spend too much time on a few topics and dismiss a large part of the study plan. They just want to "plug and chug" numbers in an equation without understanding the material.

Failing the exam on the first try should be a wake-up call. After 3 or 4 attempts, there has to be some self-evaluation as to the methods used to study (if any).

 

[Road Guy]

all i know is that is scared the living sh[t out of me after I flunked the 1st time, so I trippled my study time and didnt get on the failed 2nd time list...

 

[Mike in Gastonia]

Here's a link to a thread from a few years ago with several theories:

Pass Rates Discussion

 

[MWC PE]

Because the people that passed the first time don't take it the second time.

 

[hp32si]

Here's a link to a thread from a few years ago with several theories:
Pass Rates Discussion

I read that last thread a while back----I thought it was a load of $hit then as I do now-- The PE is a young man's game---To pass it helps to have the time to devote to studying----It helps to have little or no responsibilities at work other than sitting in a cube and doing what you are told, (basically that describes a lot of the 5 to 7 year engineers) , single is best but married no children! Renting an apartment is better than owning a house because when you own the home, you have to fix it when things break--- All these items take away from your study time---At that is what is required to pass—STUDY TIME period---I believe that almost any engineer can pass the PE with enough study time---I think the comment by “Mike in Gastonia” in Dec 2007(see his comment below) is a bunch of self serving baloney to pump up his ego and but other people down who didn’t pass the first time. Also the times I took the test I always marked first time taker---because this was the first time I took THAT test. After you read it you will note that he is telling you that he is a high-performer---I call it BS!

“Based on the explanations I've seen here's my shot at explaining it.......

The group of "first-time" examinees is significantly different from the group of "repeat-taker" examinees.

The "first-time" group includes a more or less even mixture of high-performing, medium-performing, and low-performing candidates.

They all take the exam. Most of the high performers pass, some of the medium performers pass, and only a few of the low performers pass. Those who pass leave the exam group.

Those who do not pass become repeat takers. So what does the repeat taker group look like? It has only a few high performers (because most of them already passed), plus some medium performers, and most of the low performers.

So the repeat taker group -- unlike the first-timer group -- consists mostly of low performers. Assuming that the exams are of similar difficulty, there needs to be something different about the repeat taker to pass the second time because otherwise they will fail again. The repeat takers who had a bad day the first time or changed their approach will pass and be removed from the repeater group.”

 

[mark.herrmann]

I actually think Mike's original comment is anything but self-serving. I don't think his performance level rankings necessarily relate to engineering. Some people are just really good test takers, as opposed to some who may be knowledgeable in their field but are no good under the gun.

Not everyone is meant to get a license. If study time is what is required to pass, then, if you really want a license, you have to make sure you can devote the time. I have a wife and 2 kids. We had a discussion, and came up with a schedule that worked for both of us, and it paid off for me in the end. To say the PE is a young man's game is pretty baseless. If you want the PE, go out and get it. No one is going to just hand it to you for showing up every day at work, or showing up to the test site.

 

[ELEPE]

I actually think Mike's original comment is anything but self-serving. I don't think his performance level rankings necessarily relate to engineering. Some people are just really good test takers, as opposed to some who may be knowledgeable in their field but are no good under the gun.
Not everyone is meant to get a license. If study time is what is required to pass, then, if you really want a license, you have to make sure you can devote the time. I have a wife and 2 kids. We had a discussion, and came up with a schedule that worked for both of us, and it paid off for me in the end. To say the PE is a young man's game is pretty baseless. If you want the PE, go out and get it. No one is going to just hand it to you for showing up every day at work, or showing up to the test site.

I completely agree. I would say a large number of PE exam takers (yours truly here included) are married with wife and young children. Whether or not we are "young" is a matter of opinion but I CAN say I put in at least 300 hours studying for the exam. And I don't sit around at the office with zero responsibility like the previous poster says.

Mike's post makes a lot of sense. He is just dealing with statistics.

 

[benbo]

Mike's post makes a lot of sense. He is just dealing with statistics.

^^Ditto.

After working for 20 years in positions where they didn't require licensure (heck, where a lot of people thin PE stands for Physical Education), I got a job which required a PE for advancement. I was near 50. Not only did I have a wife and kid, I had a gravely ill mother living with us. The one thing I knew was that I sure as he!! didn't want to take the damn thing twice. So I took a class and studied my a$$ off. I passed, while several officemates under 30, many of them single, have been unsuccessful through various attempts. I'm not sure why they didn't pass, and knowing them I am sure they all will at some point. But they apparently don't have an advantage being younger.

 

[hp32si]

Mike's post makes a lot of sense. He is just dealing with statistics.

^^Ditto.

After working for 20 years in positions where they didn't require licensure (heck, where a lot of people thin PE stands for Physical Education), I got a job which required a PE for advancement. I was near 50. Not only did I have a wife and kid, I had a gravely ill mother living with us. The one thing I knew was that I sure as he!! didn't want to take the damn thing twice. So I took a class and studied my a$$ off. I passed, while several officemates under 30, many of them single, have been unsuccessful through various attempts. I'm not sure why they didn't pass, and knowing them I am sure they all will at some point. But they apparently don't have an advantage being younger.

Sounds like you and I were doing the same thing-I have been designing industrial structures for 18 years -PE not required most of the time-One project I did had 821 structural drawings-greenfield corn syrup plant for Cargill in North Dakota---I was 48 when I passed--Took it 4 times---Married 3 kids-10 to 4 -First wife terminal ill one year after I started to try to pass the exam-Passed away three years later--Single dad 3 kids for the second time----Just married new wife, with baby on the way for the third---The fourth and last time I was able to take time to study properly--- Remember statistics don't lie just the people who use them. The main point I was trying to get across is the test is not about statistics--It is about just what I said and you stated------I studied my a$$ off---Yes you where able to take the TIME to study and pass. Younger people have less things in the way so they should be able to study more---I know when I was 29 or 30 I was thinking about where my wife and I were going out on the weekend (no kids until I was 32). To use statistics to explain a test that people can't even tell you how they grade it is self serving PERIOD!

Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----I was pointing out that at a younger age---you have more free time and less responsibilities at work hence more time to study---You will notice as you get older your time is spent on other people instead of your self---Your children get older--play sports or the band-somebody has to drive them--your parents get older and need your help, Your church or other groups you spend time with want you to help them---Look at what you spent or spend you time on in your 20s and 30s---If you are honest, a large portion of it is on what you want to do---football/basketball games, hunting fishing, trip to ski or the beach-etc--It is that freedom to be able to choose is the point---

 

[benbo]

I studied my a$$ off---Yes you where able to take the TIME to study and pass. To use statistics to explain a test that people can't even tell you how they grade it is self serving PERIOD!

^^^

I honestly don't know what your problem is with what Mike wrote. You're reading something insulting into it that isn't there. The term "high performer" or "low performer" is neither some comment about a person's innate intelligence, nor their ability to do their job, simply a statement about their ability to pass that test that particular time . A "low performer" can become a "high performer" by changing their study strategy - as you did. And as Mike clearly states -

Assuming that the exams are of similar difficulty, there needs to be something different about the repeat taker to pass the second time because otherwise they will fail again. The repeat takers who had a bad day the first time or changed their approach will pass and be removed from the repeater group.”

In my case, I was able to find the time to study the first time. You eventually did. And I guarantee you if I wasn't able to find sufficient time to study the first time, I would have been in the "low performer" group, because no way I could have passed without having the time to study.

Younger people have less things in the way so they should be able to study more---I know when I was 29 or 30 I was thinking about where my wife and I were going out on the weekend (no kids until I was 32).

Speaking of statistics, you base this on a sample size of one. People face different challenges at different ages. This is a gross overgeneralization.

 

[benbo]

a test that people can't even tell you how they grade

They don't tell you the actual cut score. But they give about as much information on how they score as any other exam-. And remember that the questions and cut scores are determined by input from volunteer PEs.

http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Pages/Scoring.php

http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Pages/Scoring/Scoring_process.php

 

[benbo]

Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----

I'm not missing the point. You seem to feel personally insulted by what Mike wrote when it is merely a statement of fact. It makes no statrement about why anyone was or was not able to study. It merely states that for whatever reason, if you do not perform well the first time (ie pass the test); if you do not change anything you are less likely to perform well the second time. It may not be possible for you to change anything. But that doesn't change the fact that you must change something, or have significant luck the second time in order to pass.

The truth is that a lot of people who don't study the first time don't change anything the second time, third time, or tenth time. In EE, a lot of people think they can get my without working problems - just reading the text. A big mistake in my opinion.

And to me your notion that young people all have the time to study and simply don't beause they prefer to recreate is pretty insulting to young people who may have severe challenges, including young kids, illness, etc.

 

[hp32si]

[No message]

 

[hp32si]

Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----

I'm not missing the point. You seem to feel personally insulted by what Mike wrote when it is merely a statement of fact. It makes no statrement about why anyone was or was not able to study. It merely states that for whatever reason, if you do not perform well the first time (ie pass the test); if you do not change anything you are less likely to perform well the second time. It may not be possible for you to change anything. But that doesn't change the fact that you must change something, or have significant luck the second time in order to pass.

The truth is that a lot of people who don't study the first time don't change anything the second time, third time, or tenth time. In EE, a lot of people think they can get my without working problems - just reading the text. A big mistake in my opinion.

And to me your notion that young people all have the time to study and simply don't beause they prefer to recreate is pretty insulting to young people who may have severe challenges, including young kids, illness, etc.

READ MY POSTs--I never said they do not study---I said they have the choice to study --simple fact ----

 

[hp32si]

Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----

I'm not missing the point. You seem to feel personally insulted by what Mike wrote when it is merely a statement of fact. It makes no statrement about why anyone was or was not able to study. It merely states that for whatever reason, if you do not perform well the first time (ie pass the test); if you do not change anything you are less likely to perform well the second time. It may not be possible for you to change anything. But that doesn't change the fact that you must change something, or have significant luck the second time in order to pass.

The truth is that a lot of people who don't study the first time don't change anything the second time, third time, or tenth time. In EE, a lot of people think they can get my without working problems - just reading the text. A big mistake in my opinion.

And to me your notion that young people all have the time to study and simply don't beause they prefer to recreate is pretty insulting to young people who may have severe challenges, including young kids, illness, etc.

It is not a fact---he is extrapolating a hypothesis on why he thinks people don't pass---

 

[benbo]

READ MY POSTs--I never said they do not study---I said they have the choice to study --simple fact ----

Yeah, I know because of your leadership in your "2nd largest privately held" company, you know everything and it makes it fact. The only fact is that this is your anecdotal opinion. This is not a fact. This is your opinion, based on anecdotal evidence.

It is not a fact---he is extrapolating a hypothesis on why he thinks people don't pass---

I have read your posts. You are not reading mine.

What would you call a person who doesn't pass the first time? A "high performer?". It is not a personal judgement on anything. A person who did not pass the first time did not perform well on the test, therefore they are not a high performer. If they do not change something, they will not pass again. MAYBE THEY CAN"T CHOOSE TO CHANGE BECAUSE OF CIRCUMSTANCE DO you like that? Does that satisfy you? But it remains, if they don't change something they are more likely to continue to fail, unless they are extremely lucky. If you cannot see that is a fact it isn't worth the electrons to discuss this with you.

 

[benbo]

2nd largest privately held"

I fixed this typo.