# in-state PE vs out-of-state PE plus master's degree - which is worth more?



## adamgram (Apr 13, 2011)

Which of the following would you think is a more valuable set of credentials to have:

A- BS in Mathematics + BS in Mechanical Engineering (ABET) + registered PE in the state where the engineer lives and works, or

B- BS in Mathematics + Masters in Mechanical Engineering + registered PE in a state where the engineer does not live and work

Apparently my state treats PE candidates with their Master's in Engineering (or PhD for that matter) the same way as those with no more than a high school diploma with regards to how much experience they need before they can take the test. I am currently enrolled in an ABET BSME program but I think I could get into a Master's program at a better school (that is also is more accommodating to adult students who work full time). The problem is going from an undergraduate program to a graduate program might actually HURT me in terms of becoming registered in my state (make perfect sense right?) But by the time I finish I could become registered in at least one neighboring state.

What would you do?


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## picusld (Apr 13, 2011)

adamgram said:


> Which of the following would you think is a more valuable set of credentials to have:
> A- BS in Mathematics + BS in Mechanical Engineering (ABET) + registered PE in the state where the engineer lives and works, or
> 
> B- BS in Mathematics + Masters in Mechanical Engineering + registered PE in a state where the engineer does not live and work
> ...


This is in a different thread I think. MS in engineering does is not = or &gt; a BS in engineering. Believe it is like that in most states.


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## adamgram (Apr 13, 2011)

picusld said:


> MS in engineering does is not = or &gt; a BS in engineering. Believe it is like that in most states.


By the time I would be finished with the program I would be eligible in a neighboring state based on experience and my existing Math degree alone. Whether or not it's like that in most states or not I'm interested in what is valued more in the industry: a Master's degree and an out-of-state PE license or a BS degree and an in-state PE license.


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## willsee (Apr 13, 2011)

adamgram said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > MS in engineering does is not = or &gt; a BS in engineering. Believe it is like that in most states.
> ...


Well if you can't get a PE license in the state you practice in, then it is pretty worthless.

What industry are you in? I have a master in EE (ABET Accredited) and work in MEP Consulting and most don't seem to care, it just knocks a year off the experience requirement for the PE exam.


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## adamgram (Apr 13, 2011)

willsee said:


> Well if you can't get a PE license in the state you practice in, then it is pretty worthless.
> What industry are you in? I have a master in EE (ABET Accredited) and work in MEP Consulting and most don't seem to care, it just knocks a year off the experience requirement for the PE exam.


I work in MEP consulting as well.  I guess the logic is, since the stamp on the drawings needs to be from the state where the project is in regardless of where the office is or where the engineer lives, a NJ license more valuable for projects in NJ than a PA license even though I work and live in PA. So if the boss (not me) is stamping the drawings, an out-of-state PE license is still worth something with regards to salary. How much more is an in-state license worth? And how much more is a Master's degree worth?

Also, you say you have a master in EE (ABET Accredited). I didn't think ABET accredited graduate degrees, am I mistaken or do you mean BSEE (ABET Accrdited) + Masters?


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## jmbeck (Apr 13, 2011)

You specifically mention that the BS degree is ABET, but leave that out for the ME degree.

Is it a safe assumption that the ME is not ABET?


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## willsee (Apr 13, 2011)

adamgram said:


> willsee said:
> 
> 
> > Well if you can't get a PE license in the state you practice in, then it is pretty worthless.
> ...


I have a BSEE and a M.Eng in EE and the M.Eng is accredited.

In MEP I would say a Master degree is worth nothing extra (unless you can negotiate it)

If you can't stamp drawings that you're getting work in what good is your PE license? Also if your boss is the only one that stamps drawings for your company what value can you negotiate?


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## jmbeck (Apr 13, 2011)

jmbeck said:


> You specifically mention that the BS degree is ABET, but leave that out for the ME degree.
> Is it a safe assumption that the ME is not ABET?
> 
> There are a few (I believe) schools that offer ABET Masters of Engineering. They changed the rule 3 years ago.


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## adamgram (Apr 13, 2011)

jmbeck said:


> You specifically mention that the BS degree is ABET, but leave that out for the ME degree.
> Is it a safe assumption that the ME is not ABET?


I'll have to look into that, I was under the impression that only undergraduate degrees were accredited but I do know that the BSME degree at that school is accredited, so for now assume that the ME is accredited.


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## willsee (Apr 13, 2011)

adamgram said:


> jmbeck said:
> 
> 
> > You specifically mention that the BS degree is ABET, but leave that out for the ME degree.
> ...


Don't quote me on this but...

I don't think you can get an accredited Master of Engineering degree if you don't have a BS in Engineering. Just thinking off the top of my head how that wouldn't make any sense considering the "meat and potatoes" of engineering is your first four years comprising of your BS.


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## adamgram (Apr 13, 2011)

willsee said:


> If you can't stamp drawings that you're getting work in what good is your PE license? Also if your boss is the only one that stamps drawings for your company what value can you negotiate?


I know lots of PEs that don't stamp their own drawings and they are in positions in their companies that I wouldn't exactly describe as "no good". It's good marketing for the firm, their resumes go on proposals, and you're a better face of the company in front of the client if you have it on your business card and signature. That value = a higher salary.


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## navyasw02 (Apr 18, 2011)

In general, I'd take the MSME and out of state PE. First off, you'll have a MS instead of a BS which is generally a plus, and second you'll have a PE that you will be able to transfer at some point in the future once you meet your current state's requirements.


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## picusld (Apr 25, 2011)

adamgram said:


> willsee said:
> 
> 
> > If you can't stamp drawings that you're getting work in what good is your PE license? Also if your boss is the only one that stamps drawings for your company what value can you negotiate?
> ...



FYI, if you are not a licensed as a PE in PA and your main office is located in PA, it is considered illegal to use the PE designation on a business card even if you are licensed in another state.


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## chaocl (Apr 25, 2011)

picusld said:


> adamgram said:
> 
> 
> > willsee said:
> ...


NCEES record will help.

P.S. I think the licensed should be accept all states wide.

If you driving the car from NY to FL that you need to have every states that you passby to prove your driving license before you actually practice your driving motion effecitive.

Or

If you take your SAT or TOFEL exam in NY and you need to apply school in CA. However, CA won't accpet your score because you take your SAT or TOFEL exam in NY?


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## picusld (Apr 25, 2011)

chaocl said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > adamgram said:
> ...


While I can't dissagree, I don't think that anyone wants to be standing in front of their board for un licensed practice.

Check out the Summer 2009 issue on the link below. Article is on page 5.

http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/serve..._archive/830218


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## Exception Collection (Apr 25, 2011)

picusld said:


> While I can't dissagree, I don't think that anyone wants to be standing in front of their board for un licensed practice.
> Check out the Summer 2009 issue on the link below. Article is on page 5.
> 
> http://www.portal.state.pa.us/portal/serve..._archive/830218


I disagree. Individual states have different requirements for a reason; see CA and the seismic/surveying issues. Though I do think they should have effectively automatic comity (and they don't; it's close, but not quite), with the additional requirement of passing the necessary exams.

One thing you can do by the way is make explicit where your license is, in e-mail or other electronic communications. For example, my e-mail signature says "&lt;full name&gt;, P.E. (WA)" - regardless of the state the person I e-mail. I don't use that for pure online communication (ie, message boards like this one), because in that case it's assumed that I am speaking as an Engineer of the state where I am licensed (just like it is for everyone else).

I should note that the above e-mail signature was discussed with OSBEELS, the Oregon Engineering Board, and was approved.

Edit: Lots of nested quotes. Fixed now.


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## picusld (Apr 26, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > While I can't dissagree, I don't think that anyone wants to be standing in front of their board for un licensed practice.
> ...


Maybe true for some but not all. While some (like the civil) can vary state to state, How much can computer engineering vary from CA to NY?

Lots on this list where it really shouldn't matter what state you are in.

Agricultural

Architectural

Chemical

Civil: Construction

Civil: Geotechnical (updated for October 2011 exam)

Civil: Structural

Civil: Transportation

Civil: Water Resources and Environmental

Control Systems (updated for October 2011 exam)

Electrical and Computer: Computer Engineering

Electrical and Computer: Electrical and Electronics

Electrical and Computer: Power

Environmental

Fire Protection

Industrial

Mechanical: HVAC and Refrigeration

Mechanical: Mechanical Systems and Materials

Mechanical: Thermal and Fluids Systems

Metallurgical and Materials

Mining and Mineral Processing

Naval Architecture and Marine

Nuclear

Petroleum

Structural


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## Exception Collection (Apr 26, 2011)

picusld said:


> Karen S. P.E. said:
> 
> 
> > picusld said:
> ...


That's a good point. Though I'm not sure how appropriate it would be, given that you could (in theory) end up with a situation where a Civil Engineer in one state gets a Mechanical or Electrical license in that state, then goes to California and get the ME/EE there, and still can't work as a Civil in CA.

In any case, unless Engineering is converted to a nationally-licensed system (instead of per-state), automatic comity will not happen. The individual states don't want to give up the power to refuse licenses to those they feel might be unqualified, and far more importantly want to have fine control of punishments and rules. What might be appropriate in one area may not be considered appropriate in another. And quite frankly, that's the way it should be. As nice as it would be to be able to get a license anywhere I wanted with a modicum of effort, I much prefer State-level boards over a National one as a concept. Though I will fully admit that this is primarily driven by my own Structural/Civil origin.


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## adamgram (Apr 28, 2011)

So I talked to NCEES and my state board about this and I found out some interesting things other people might be interested in. Apparently if you do not have an ABET accredited degree you can apply for an education evaluation from NCEES to see if your education background is "ABET equivalent". I guess they always did this for foreign degrees but starting last year it also applies to domestic education. If your educational background is deemed "ABET equivalent", NCEES will inform your state of this but in some cases the state reserves the right to say "ABET equivalent" is not good enough. The person I talked to from PA said in my state it is good enough.

NCEES at first tried to talk me out of the Master's degree but I think that is because they assume a second Bacholer's would be easier and less complicated. No doubt for the application it would be less complicated but but in my case scheduling my last 1.5 years of school around my work schedule would be a nightmare (in class for 2 hours, back to the office for 1 hour, back to class, etc).

She told me that "ABET equivalent" basically means a B.S. degree plus 48 credits of Engineering classes. They generally say that a Master's degree without a B.S. in Engineering isn't good enough because a Master's degree is only 30 credits, not 48. However, with 30 credits from the Master's program plus 18 additional undergraduate credits, or 48 undergraduate credits not resulting in a degree, I could be considered ABET equivalent and not need the B.S. degree to get accredited in my state. There are probably additional credits for Math and Science that I didn't ask about because it is covered by my Math degree, but if your degree is in something else I would look into it more.

She stressed that they cannot say for certain anything hypothetical about what I'm planning on doing in the future, and I won't know for sure until I apply, but it sounds like there is a reasonable enough chance that I can be considered the same way regardless of which path I pick, so I'm going to apply for the graduate program.


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## picusld (Apr 28, 2011)

adamgram said:


> So I talked to NCEES and my state board about this and I found out some interesting things other people might be interested in. Apparently if you do not have an ABET accredited degree you can apply for an education evaluation from NCEES to see if your education background is "ABET equivalent". I guess they always did this for foreign degrees but starting last year it also applies to domestic education. If your educational background is deemed "ABET equivalent", NCEES will inform your state of this but in some cases the state reserves the right to say "ABET equivalent" is not good enough. The person I talked to from PA said in my state it is good enough.
> NCEES at first tried to talk me out of the Master's degree but I think that is because they assume a second Bacholer's would be easier and less complicated. No doubt for the application it would be less complicated but but in my case scheduling my last 1.5 years of school around my work schedule would be a nightmare (in class for 2 hours, back to the office for 1 hour, back to class, etc).
> 
> She told me that "ABET equivalent" basically means a B.S. degree plus 48 credits of Engineering classes. They generally say that a Master's degree without a B.S. in Engineering isn't good enough because a Master's degree is only 30 credits, not 48. However, with 30 credits from the Master's program plus 18 additional undergraduate credits, or 48 undergraduate credits not resulting in a degree, I could be considered ABET equivalent and not need the B.S. degree to get accredited in my state. There are probably additional credits for Math and Science that I didn't ask about because it is covered by my Math degree, but if your degree is in something else I would look into it more.
> ...


One quick clarrification...have you passed the EIT yet and what neighboring state are you referring?

regardless, good luck.


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## adamgram (Apr 28, 2011)

picusld said:


> One quick clarrification...have you passed the EIT yet and what neighboring state are you referring?
> regardless, good luck.


I took the FE in April so I don't know if I passed yet or not. The neighboring state would either be Delaware, where you can take the PE with a Math degree plus 7 years experience, or New Jersey. New Jersey's law isn't entire clear on my situation but they do list on their website similar to what NCEES described with a number of credits in various aspects of engineering that are required in lieu of an ABET accredited degree.


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## picusld (Apr 28, 2011)

adamgram said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > One quick clarrification...have you passed the EIT yet and what neighboring state are you referring?
> ...



10-4.

I was originally licensed in Jersey. I would say that if you can avoid that board, you should.

good luck


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## chaocl (Apr 28, 2011)

adamgram said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > One quick clarrification...have you passed the EIT yet and what neighboring state are you referring?
> ...


Some of the states might accept your education but some of them also need you to gain your engineering working experiences there.

You can try CA.

It is better to ask both boards before you act.


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## Road Guy (Apr 28, 2011)

personally If you can find a job I would get the job and the experience to get the PE and then the masters degree while your working, if you can...

lots of people seem to be chosing masters degree's since the job market is so tough, so many people are getting them they are not going to garnish as much value as they did 10 / 20 years ago... So thats why my vote would be to work and get the PE...

this economy not withstanding, but your generally going to make more once you get your PE, so the quickest route to that is what I would work on..


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## adamgram (Apr 28, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> personally If you can find a job I would get the job and the experience to get the PE and then the masters degree while your working, if you can...


Definitely. I am employed full time as a Designer and doing the school at night. The master's program would me much easier to do at night than the Bacholer's Degree. Most of the classes are offered online, so I wouldn't have to sacrifice my work schedule to get the degree. Having to take a 3 hour break in the middle of the day to go to class would make it a lot harder to schedule meetings, site visits, and generally take on more responsibility.


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## BPZ (Apr 29, 2011)

I graduated with a non-enginering ABET accredited technology BS degree. After several years in industry, I decided to pursue an engineering license. I too worked and had a family so for me, a BS was out of the question. I applied to graduate school and was accepted conditionally into the structural engineering program. I had to take and pass with a B or A key undergraduate engineering courses and math courses. I knew for quite a while I was going to go back to school so I prepared myself by studying math and physics. Luckily, I was able to test out of Calc 1, 2 &amp; 3. I took differential equations, statics, dynamics, strenght of materials, srtuctural analysis and a concrete design undergrad courses. I graduated with a MSCE and took and passed the FE exam. Texas allowed me to sit for the PE exam....I am currently awaitnig my results. The MSCE worked for me...but, the PE is essential if you don't have a BS in engineering. Most engineering jobs require a BS and don't seem to care much about the MS. I will say though, for structural engineering, the MS is essential and starting to be a requirement. The material covered in the MS is focused and very much worth learning.


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