# # of PE's in U.S.?



## eng.dork (Feb 1, 2008)

I was trying to find this statistic the other night with no luck. Does anyone know approximately how many PE's are in the U.S.? More specifically how many are in each discipline? I am trying to figure out how valuable I am to my company and I thought this would be a good starting point.


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## Guest (Feb 1, 2008)

Out of curiousity, how do you think a distillation of the # of professional engineers by profession is going to assist you with ascertaining your value to your employer?

JR


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## Brody (Feb 1, 2008)

eng.dork said:


> I was trying to find this statistic the other night with no luck. Does anyone know approximately how many PE's are in the U.S.? More specifically how many are in each discipline? I am trying to figure out how valuable I am to my company and I thought this would be a good starting point.


The important statistic is that there are more engineers graduating than new engineering jobs. Add to this all of the H1B visas that allow thousands of foreign engineers to work in this country for discounted wages, and unfortunately we end up being of less value than we wouild like. This is why we don't get paid as much as lawyers, for example. Lawyers don't allow foreign lawyers to come and work at a discounted rate. We engineers don't stick up for ourselves. Soon we'll be working for miminum wage.

Sorry to be a killjoy.


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## Monroe (Feb 1, 2008)

Brody said:


> The important statistic is that there are more engineers graduating than new engineering jobs. Add to this all of the H1B visas that allow thousands of foreign engineers to work in this country for discounted wages, and unfortunately we end up being of less value than we wouild like. This is why we don't get paid as much as lawyers, for example. Lawyers don't allow foreign lawyers to come and work at a discounted rate. We engineers don't stick up for ourselves. Soon we'll be working for miminum wage.
> Sorry to be a killjoy.



Wow! Thank you for ruining my day.


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## ODB_PE (Feb 1, 2008)

Monroe said:


> Wow! Thank you for ruining my day.


It gets better. I took a little exception to Brody's post because it is so contrary to what you hear, but after some research I realized there was some merit to it. However, I found this letter to the NY Times editor that is probably spot on:



In your Forum piece on military procurement (''The Real Threat to the Arms Industry,'' Jan. 7), Ronald W. Stahlschmidt repeats the tired canard that there is or will be a shortage of adequately trained engineers for defense-related projects.

There is not now, there never has really been and there never will be an engineering ''shortage'' in the true laissez faire sense of the word. Spot shortages, maybe. Real shortages, no. If engineering needs followed true free market principles, during a shortage a competent engineer would be able to name his price and get it. This certainly is not the case. High school students today are not stupid. They know that the road to financial success, independence and respect are much more likely to be down the paths of medicine, law or business than engineering.

JESSE D. SHEINWALD

Seaford, N.Y., Jan. 8

ouch.


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## Monroe (Feb 1, 2008)

ol said:


> It gets better. I took a little exception to Brody's post because it is so contrary to what you hear, but after some research I realized there was some merit to it. However, I found this letter to the NY Times editor that is probably spot on:
> 
> In your Forum piece on military procurement (''The Real Threat to the Arms Industry,'' Jan. 7), Ronald W. Stahlschmidt repeats the tired canard that there is or will be a shortage of adequately trained engineers for defense-related projects.
> 
> ...


No more. I've heard enough.


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## LionCE (Feb 1, 2008)

Actually it gets worse than that. When I was coming out of college I went to the regional career center to look for work. This was in the early 90's before the internet was what it is now. I found a listing that looked good, went up to the career specialist and asked him how I could apply to the listing. He punched up the listing on his screen and told me don't bother. When I asked why, he told me that it is coded for a foreign national and the only reason it was listed was because it had to be by law.


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## ODB_PE (Feb 1, 2008)

LionCE said:


> Actually it gets worse than that. When I was coming out of college I went to the regional career center to look for work. This was in the early 90's before the internet was what it is now. I found a listing that looked good, went up to the career specialist and asked him how I could apply to the listing. He punched up the listing on his screen and told me don't bother. When I asked why, he told me that it is coded for a foreign national and the only reason it was listed was because it had to be by law.


yeah, I hear about those all the time. Even in structural.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 1, 2008)

Wow...just, wow.


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## maryannette (Feb 1, 2008)

Why are there a lot of foreign engineers and doctors, but not lawyers??!!

Hmmm.


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## eng.dork (Feb 1, 2008)

Pardon my ignorance! Everyone is making some great points. I didn't realize what a big deal some of the issues that have been brought up are. So, maybe this is a dumb question, but if lawyers can dictate who becomes a lawyer, then why can't engineers do the same? I understand that it may be an uphill battle, and maybe impossible. It just doesn't seem right.

Since I started in this industry my bosses have always said how getting your PE is a must...this is really sad! I do know that one of the principals in the firm I work for does not have his PE, so I have often wondered what is the benefit of getting it within my company...I didn't realize that it was a "national" issue.

Please forgive my ignorance on my first question, however from replies I do think it is a needed discussion.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 1, 2008)

eng.dork said:


> So, maybe this is a dumb question, but if lawyers can dictate who becomes a lawyer, then why can't engineers do the same?


To be completely cynical, it is because the lawyers write the laws, engineers don't.


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## Brody (Feb 1, 2008)

eng.dork said:


> I am trying to figure out how valuable I am to my company ...


I don't want to be all negative here, especially since this is Friday. :multiplespotting:

Of course you can be of value to your company, it's just that most of us engineers aren't of sky high value.

It all has to do with the supply of labor.

If there is a labor shortage, wages will increase. In a labor surplus, wages decline. This applies to everybody.

Engineers and IT workers are in the same boat. We've all heard there is a great IT and engineering shortage. But it is just not so. This misconception is perpetuated to keep increasing the number of H1B visas granted each year. H1B visas allow foreign nationals to work in the US in technical positions. They are willing to work for lower wages than Americans, thus pulling down wages for everyone.

Who sets the limits on these visas? It is congress, which is composed mostly of lawyers. They get huge contributions from lobbyists representing big business, who want higher and higer visa numbers. Bill Gates wants to have no limits whatsoever on H1B visas. He would like for everyone to work for Microsoft for minimum wage.

Laborers, carpenters for instance, are affected in a like manner by the huge numbers of illegal aliens in the country. A carpenter friend of mine is making the same wage now that he made 15 years ago, and he is a union member.

Can we have foreign lawyers come to the US and flood the lawyering market so the lawyer fees will be lower? Well, we'll have to convince the lawyers running congress to do so. I wouldn't hold my breath.

In the past five years, inflation has gone up 28%. Tech wages have been flat.

Like ol' deadbeat's reference above says, engineering is a tough sell to high school students.

You can make a decent living as an engineer, but you won't get rich. When you consider that we are the ones who build and run the modern world, our wages are out of balance with other professions.


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## jfusilloPE (Feb 1, 2008)

Brody said:


> You can make a decent living as an engineer, but you won't get rich. When you consider that we are the ones who build and run the modern world, our wages are out of balance with other professions.


Amen to that!


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## usckai (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree the engineering profession is very under appreciated and under paid, but I disagree on not allowing foreign engineers and scientist to work in this country. One of the main reason that US is the most technological advance country in the world is beacause we allow those smart people to work and live in this country. We are combining their great mind with ours, so we can be the first county to put human on the moon, first to invent the atomic bomb, first one to invent the microprocessor... As for me, I rather to work with a smart engineer from another country than an home grown engineer who can only complain how much he is underpaid.

As for the lawyers, they are way overpaid, and they are the reason we need to pass the PE.


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## MEPE2B (Feb 2, 2008)

I agree that allowing the influx of foreign engineers into the US does keep wages down to a certain extent. But I also agree that our industries and our economy has historically benefited from the diversity of talent. Keep in mind that starting salaries for new engineering grads are still higher than for any other four-year degree. I think that there will always be a niche in or society for technically adept people who also have the grasp of our culture that only comes from growing up in it. Long-term security for American-born engineers lies in the leveraging their advantage in culturally dependant people skills to secure the higher pay of technically oriented managerial and sales positions. That's why I think most engineers are better served long term by an MBA than a masters degree in engineering.


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## IlPadrino (Feb 2, 2008)

Does anyone have some real statistics about foreign engineers?


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## mudpuppy (Feb 2, 2008)

I'm still curious about the original question, too. Does anyone have statistics on how many PE's there are in the US, especially by disipline?


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2008)

I think you can start to get an idea of the breakdown of numbers at 17-0000 Architecture and Engineering Occupations (Major Group)

That link takes you to the US Dept of Labor employment statistics for Architecture and Engineering. It isn't specific to licensing but they can break down the numbers by state or discipline.

It's a start .. 

JR


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## kevo_55 (Feb 2, 2008)

Back about 6 months ago there was a NSPE article on this original topic.

The website no longer has this issue online but it had the TOTAL number of engineers licensed in each state. Of course, there was no way to know if an engineer was licensed in more than one state or not. So, the total number of licensees was inflated.

Back to the more intresting part of this topic, I'm not too worried about foreign engineers in the US. First of all, in order to work here they must have a work permit. Second of all, in order to be licensed here they must be a Perminant Resident. If someone is a PR, what is the real diffrence if they were born outside of the US or not? For what I know they are just like me and must pass the exams that I must pass.

Of course, this logic goes down the toilet when engineer seals are no longer required.


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## C-Dog (Feb 3, 2008)

I have to disagree. There is a shortage of COMPETANT ENGINEERS. H1 visa types are typically glorified draftsmen or techs, outsourcing to India has shown not to be that much of a savings and again they are just glorified draftsmen.


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## MRDPE (Mar 6, 2008)

FYI

Greg Schuckman, Assistant Vice President of University Relations and Director of Federal Relations and Research Advancement at the University of Central Florida, authored a study after revisiting data that he had analyzed in 1998 while working for the American Association of Engineering Societies (AAES) in Washington, DC. “Over the past 20 years, the number of students earning bachelors degrees in engineering has declined by almost 3 percent nationally,” says Schuckman. “While that statistic may not seem significant by itself, the decline comes at a time when the number of students receiving bachelors degrees overall in the United States has increased by more than 50 percent.”


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## AN_US (Mar 6, 2008)

Well, I guess that's pretty alarming, then!


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## testee (Mar 6, 2008)

that is a shocker for sure!


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## LionCE (Mar 6, 2008)

Can't learn about Math and Physics doing things like seeing how fast you have to pedal your bike to jump over the bush while you are sitting inside playing Wii.


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## AN_US (Mar 6, 2008)

Yeah, and if you do jump over the bush, be careful what you land in!


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## EM_PS (Mar 6, 2008)

Brody said:


> Bill Gates wants to have no limits whatsoever on H1B visas. He would like for everyone to work for Microsoft for minimum wage.


Couldn't disagree w/ you more strongly here Brody - I have family @ MS, and that company goes out of its way for its employees and their morale. High stress for sure, but benefits benefits benefits, and the pay is anything but minimum wage - few years back, folks w/ comp sci degrees (or similar) were netting $80K right out of school! thats only gone up.

Somebody here said something about engineering grads pulling in highest starting salaries - Highly unlikely - again look to the computer related degrees, construction, welding, or even allied health programs to not only net same or higher starting pay, but gauranteed employment to boot. I mean c'mon folks, people walking out of high school could once upon a time pull in $40K starting pay in our former industry / manufacturing heavy glory days.

Its a sign that our profession is truly in a transitional state - trapped between a mediocre paying technical field (spurred by offshoring) and a true professional calling worthy of commanding top dollar, akin to laywers et al. I feel it to be a calling still, but the liability vs. pay don't make it too much fun.


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## J.Smith (Mar 6, 2008)

Brody said:


> The important statistic is that there are more engineers graduating than new engineering jobs. Add to this all of the H1B visas that allow thousands of foreign engineers to work in this country for discounted wages, and unfortunately we end up being of less value than we wouild like. This is why we don't get paid as much as lawyers, for example. Lawyers don't allow foreign lawyers to come and work at a discounted rate. We engineers don't stick up for ourselves. Soon we'll be working for miminum wage.
> Sorry to be a killjoy.



I will tell you that based on my experience (10 years in the private sector, consulting), I have not seen that many foreign engineers working for the companies that I have worked for, and mind you, I live in New York the capital city of the world. Most of the engineers with whom I have worked with are Americans and a very small percentage are foreigners. I must say that their technical skills are good, language decent. I would have to disagree with your reasoning with your comparison with the attorney profession. We have a legal system different from most of the rest of the world. A good section of Europe and South America their legal system is based on Roman Law and here is mainly Constitutional Law. To be honest with you, I don't think there is a legal system in the world that can be compare to ours. On the other hand engineering is the same anywhere, math is math, physics is physics, chemistry is chemistry no matter where you are. Look at medicine, you have people from all over the world practicing in the U.S.

Well these are my two cents.

John S.


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## jcreit (Mar 9, 2008)

Brody said:


> The important statistic is that there are more engineers graduating than new engineering jobs. Add to this all of the H1B visas that allow thousands of foreign engineers to work in this country for discounted wages, and unfortunately we end up being of less value than we wouild like. This is why we don't get paid as much as lawyers, for example. Lawyers don't allow foreign lawyers to come and work at a discounted rate. We engineers don't stick up for ourselves. Soon we'll be working for miminum wage.
> Sorry to be a killjoy.



H1B visa holders should not be paid lower than engineers in the USA . If so, the company sponsoring this H1B visa holders will be fined by the USCIS. This is to safeguard the wellfares of all engineers as a whole. So if you personally know of any underpaid H1B then this person is being exploited for the benefit of the bottom line figures at the expense of the H1B holder ( in the short term) and at the expense of the engineers here in the long term. It is up to those who are here to rectify this problem by reporting it to USCIS before wages all go down/everybody suffers.

The only person who will benefit from this are the CEOs of the company. All those savings will make him look good and make his bonus justifiable. The question is who wants to make the first move?


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## jcreit (Mar 9, 2008)

J.Smith said:


> I will tell you that based on my experience (10 years in the private sector, consulting), I have not seen that many foreign engineers working for the companies that I have worked for, and mind you, I live in New York the capital city of the world. Most of the engineers with whom I have worked with are Americans and a very small percentage are foreigners. I must say that their technical skills are good, language decent. I would have to disagree with your reasoning with your comparison with the attorney profession. We have a legal system different from most of the rest of the world. A good section of Europe and South America their legal system is based on Roman Law and here is mainly Constitutional Law. To be honest with you, I don't think there is a legal system in the world that can be compare to ours. On the other hand engineering is the same anywhere, math is math, physics is physics, chemistry is chemistry no matter where you are. Look at medicine, you have people from all over the world practicing in the U.S.
> Well these are my two cents.
> 
> John S.


I agree with you. The laws of engineering/ science is universal and America has always been and will always be a country built by immigrants we have to accept this fact and live, survive and succeed under this premise. If you look at history, America became great because of migrants (example - Einstein). So we should not be afraid of competition because it brings out the best in us.


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