# National Society of Professional Engineers



## Dark Knight (Oct 4, 2010)

According to my boss...

"I am a Professional Engineer because my National Engineer Society membership. I do not need to take any test to be considered a Professional Engineer"

OK...That comes from a guy that have not passed his EIT yet. But he is a manager already so who the bleep cares...right? So far he has not need it so I guess he is right.

My take on this? :w00t: uke:


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## snickerd3 (Oct 4, 2010)

true he might think he is a Professional Engineer, but he is NOT a *licensed* engineer.


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## MA_PE (Oct 4, 2010)

I suppose one could argue that if someone does engineering work and gets paid for doing that work, then he/she is in fact a "professional engineer".

You should have clarified for him that you are in fact a REGISTERED PE which means that the State Board recognizes your status as a professional engineer and you have a stamp and wall certificate to prove it.


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## TXCoogPE (Oct 4, 2010)

MA_PE said:


> I suppose one could argue that if someone does engineering work and gets paid for doing that work, then he/she is in fact a "professional engineer".


I agree that the argument could be made. Those who choose to make the argument should make sure that they check the board rules for their state. Some state boards have limitations on who can represent themselves as engineers and may issue fines against those who misrepresent themselves.


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## Santiagj (Oct 4, 2010)

You should have said "Well whoop dee do, thats not what the state thinks you are".


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## Supe (Oct 4, 2010)

He may be an engineering professional, but he is not a Professional Engineer. That's like Pepsi calling itself Coke. You may be a cola, but the law says you're not a Coke.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Oct 4, 2010)

I might remind him that it is illegal for a non-PE to market himself as such, and that you're obligated to report to the state board any transgressions...


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## Sschell (Oct 4, 2010)

I would tend to say that makes him a member of NSPE... not a PE...

I could (theoretically) become a member of the Black Panthers... this would neither make me black nor a panther.


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## picusld (Oct 4, 2010)

sschell_PE said:


> I would tend to say that makes him a member of NSPE... not a PE...
> I could (theoretically) become a member of the Black Panthers... this would neither make me black nor a panther.


Then again...Maybe it does...

Hmmmm


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## MA_PE (Oct 4, 2010)

VTEnviro said:


> I might remind him that it is illegal for a non-PE to market himself as such, and that you're obligated to report to the state board any transgressions...


this is actually a state specific regulation, although more and more states are adding the necessary language to their regulations.


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## IlPadrino (Oct 4, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> According to my boss...


So report him to your state board!


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## navyasw02 (Oct 4, 2010)

^^

I agree, see what the state's stance on NSPE membership is!


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## Dark Knight (Oct 4, 2010)

He does not market himself as a Professional Engineer. His comment came out of a conversation when someone asked him if he was a PE. He said that he was, and showed us his NSPE certificate. I made a mistake and asked him from what state his license was. He got it the wrong(or maybe he got it right way since I know he is not a PE) became defensive and gave us the explanation that NSPE is a NATIONAL organization and does not require to pass a test to be a professional engineer and his membership was enough to be recognized as one.

I will leave it like that since have nothing to win out of this and he already is in a defensive mode.


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## Dleg (Oct 4, 2010)

I forget what industry you work in currently, DK. But there is the "industry exemption" for things like manufacturing and oilfield etc. I worked in the oilfield in my younger days and no one was licensed, but we all considered ourselves to be "professional" engineers, but definitely not PEs. Half the people I worked with didn't know a thing about licensing. I was already an EIT, and I knew about it, but was told a PE had no value so just give up on it.

If your company is in a field that is covered by licensing law, then I think your boss's statements are pretty bad, though. And even if he is covered by the industry exemption, that's a pretty crappy attitude, and reflects poorly on him (doesn't he understand that?)


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## navyasw02 (Oct 4, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> He does not market himself as a Professional Engineer. His comment came out of a conversation when someone asked him if he was a PE. He said that he was, and showed us his NSPE certificate. I made a mistake and asked him from what state his license was. He got it the wrong(or maybe he got it right way since I know he is not a PE) became defensive and gave us the explanation that NSPE is a NATIONAL organization and does not require to pass a test to be a professional engineer and his membership was enough to be recognized as one.
> I will leave it like that since have nothing to win out of this and he already is in a defensive mode.


He sounds like a bit of a toolbag. You should just keep pressing his buttons and ask to see his seal sometime.

Edit: That's what she said.


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## Road Guy (Oct 5, 2010)

I was also nominated for membership in the National Geographic Society (via mail) the other day ....


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## MA_PE (Oct 5, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> I was also nominated for membership in the National Geographic Society (via mail) the other day ....


Does that make you a topless african woman, or an artic explorer?


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## IlPadrino (Oct 5, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> I will leave it like that since have nothing to win out of this and he already is in a defensive mode.


OK... Report him to the NSPE Board of Trustees (or whatever they have) and petition them to take away his membership. From their website:



> VisionNSPE is the recognized voice and advocate of licensed Professional Engineers.
> 
> Mission
> 
> ...


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## snickerd3 (Oct 5, 2010)

so he must have at least passed the FE exam to even be welcomed into this society. Taking liberties with the joint membership they accept.

Or he just doen't really understand the difference and doesn't want to see the light.


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## Dark Knight (Oct 5, 2010)

snickerd3 said:


> so he must have at least passed the FE exam to even be welcomed into this society. Taking liberties with the joint membership they accept.
> Or he just doen't really understand the difference and doesn't want to see the light.


No to the first statement. He has not passed the EIT (or FE).

He understands the difference. He does not give a darn. So far it has worked for him.


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## Sschell (Oct 5, 2010)

You are a bigger man than I DK... I would ride this one to the end (meaning my termination)... But I have a problem letting people slide when they are wrong, wether they are in a position of authority or not.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 5, 2010)

sschell_PE said:


> You are a bigger man than I DK... I would ride this one to the end (meaning my termination)... But I have a problem letting people slide when they are wrong, wether they are in a position of authority or not.


I agree with sschell, you are the better person. If you ever leave, maybe then you can take revenge :Banane36:


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## Santiagj (Oct 5, 2010)

Couldn't you somehow send in an anonymous tip?


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## MA_PE (Oct 5, 2010)

from http://www.nspe.org

to join as an "Engineer Professional" member type.



> Engineer Professional Engineer Professional membership is open to anyone holding either a valid license as a Professional Engineer in the U.S. or Canada, or an Engineer-In-Training or Engineering Intern certification issued under the laws of any state, territory, possession or district of the U.S., or its international equivalent.
> 
> A person who has graduated with a bachelor's degree or higher from an accredited engineering curriculum may also apply for provisional status as a member for up to two years to achieve the full requirements for member grade.


I suspect your boss (if his membership is valid) joined many years ago when they were trying to build membership and maybe did not require a PE registration to join. Obviously , the qualifications have changed and he would not be eligible for membership under the current requirements. You could always point that out to him.


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## Sschell (Oct 5, 2010)

^or point out that NSPE is not a liscensing organization.


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## chaosiscash (Oct 5, 2010)

I would suggest taking the high road and letting it go. I'm a firm believer in picking your battles, winning the battles you pick, and making sure that winning is worth the consequences. Basically, make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. In this case, for me, it wouldn't be worth it.


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## Sschell (Oct 5, 2010)

^another man who is bigger than I...

I know that would be the best thing to do... and as an outside observer, I would like to tell myself that is what I would do if I were in that situation... I just don't think I would be able to muster the self control required to bite my lip in that situation. I worked f*ckin' hard to get a license, I am proud of that, and I am proud of what the license is/stands for.


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## Santiagj (Oct 5, 2010)

Hmm I don't know... seeing the dudes face when he is told his membership has been revoked would be some seriously sweet juice...


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## jmbeck (Oct 5, 2010)

chaosiscash said:


> I would suggest taking the high road and letting it go. I'm a firm believer in picking your battles, winning the battles you pick, and making sure that winning is worth the consequences. Basically, make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. In this case, for me, it wouldn't be worth it.



:appl:

Exactly. If your goal in life is to educate and correct all the ass clowns in the world, you're going to be a very busy person.

DK is absolutely taking the right approach, which is to let it go, minus a little venting on here. I have every confidence that if "the guy" takes it to a point where action is needed, action will be taken. He's pretty far from that point.

That being said, yeah, what an ultra marooooon.


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## navyasw02 (Oct 5, 2010)

I dont think that is really the high road. What the boss is doing is technically illegal.


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## dastuff (Oct 5, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> snickerd3 said:
> 
> 
> > so he must have at least passed the FE exam to even be welcomed into this society. Taking liberties with the joint membership they accept.
> ...


Just ask him to stamp a drawing...

That will prove quickly whether or not he is a PE 

I think he was just trying to brag a little and got caught (who else was in this group that you overheard this with, any ladies?).


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## jmbeck (Oct 5, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> I dont think that is really the high road. What the boss is doing is technically illegal.





> He does not market himself as a Professional Engineer. His comment came out of a conversation when someone asked him if he was a PE.



This seems to be an internal conversation, not offering himself to the public as such.

He can call himself King of the Professional Engineers, Esq. all he wants in his office, and I doubt the board will care.

I have a feeling if you report him to a board for refering to himself internally as a PE and not offering his services to a client as a PE, the board will not persue it, and it will make you look petty.


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## navyasw02 (Oct 5, 2010)

jmbeck said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> > I dont think that is really the high road. What the boss is doing is technically illegal.
> ...


I'd be willing to bet that if he said it in this conversation, he's been saying it to other folks who are outside of his immediate workplace who dont know any better. He's obviously got PE envy.

I'm not saying I'd run to the board, but at a minimum I'd show him all the state regulations regarding the term professional engineer, and ask him to stop as a sign of respect for those who are licensed PEs.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 5, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> I'd be willing to bet that if he said it in this conversation, he's been saying it to other folks who are outside of his immediate workplace who dont know any better. He's obviously got PE envy.
> I'm not saying I'd run to the board, but at a minimum I'd show him all the state regulations regarding the term professional engineer, and ask him to stop as a sign of respect for those who are licensed PEs.


From everything DK has told us about his boss, doing that would do nothing other than make DKs work life more miserable.


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## Santiagj (Oct 5, 2010)

From the discriptions he looks like a total douche. I would hate for someone like that to get away with misrepresenting his credentials. My suggestion would be to contact the NSPE board to have his membership revoked not the state licensing board. He is obviously violating value number 4 at least. Sraymond posted the NSPE core values above.

On a related note. This thread got me interested in NSPE. So far I'm only an ASCE member, used to be an ACI member but I let that lapse. I went to the website and it looks like they offer some neat courses. Is anyone a member and if so would you recommend it?


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## navyasw02 (Oct 5, 2010)

Ahhh one of those folks who is immune to reason. You have to wonder how people like that get the jobs they have.


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## FusionWhite (Oct 5, 2010)

If you go to the NCEES website and click on "Licensing Boards" at the top it will take you to listing of boards by state. There is a link to a "View Laws, Rule and Regulations" section which has information on the policies of each states licensing board. One of these questions/answers is (this is cut and pasted for the state of Kentucky):

Q: Which of the following terms are partially or fully restricted in their usage in your jurisdiction? (Check all that apply.)

A: Variations of "engineer" (e.g., registered engineer, licensed engineer), Professional engineer


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## FLBuff PE (Oct 5, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> Ahhh one of those folks who is immune to reason. You have to wonder how people like that get the jobs they have.


PAK (Professional A$$ Ki$$er)


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## navyasw02 (Oct 5, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> > Ahhh one of those folks who is immune to reason. You have to wonder how people like that get the jobs they have.
> ...


Is there a state licensing board for that?


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## Dark Knight (Oct 5, 2010)

chaosiscash said:


> I would suggest taking the high road and letting it go. I'm a firm believer in picking your battles, winning the battles you pick, and making sure that winning is worth the consequences. Basically, make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. In this case, for me, it wouldn't be worth it.


Amen to that!!!!



navyasw02 said:


> I dont think that is really the high road. What the boss is doing is technically illegal.


It is not illegal but shows lack of integrity and principles. Any engineer knows what a PE is and what are the necessary steps to get there.



snickerd3 said:


> From everything DK has told us about his boss, doing that would do nothing other than make DKs work life more miserable.


And you are right Snick. I am already misserable and hopeless. I have nothing to win out of this and my job to loose. I have been thrown to a corner and as an engineer right now I am finished. But I have bills to pay and he is the Golden Boy of management(because he is a PAK). He has no engineering background or formation. But he can talk in such a way that gives you the impression he knows what he is saying until you ask him to clarify a point. Then you realized that it is a well learned script and nothing else...just empty words. He has no clue what he is saying.



navyasw02 said:


> Ahhh one of those folks who is immune to reason. You have to wonder how people like that get the jobs they have.


I have asked the same question several times. How did he get where he is? It is incredible but looking at how things are in upper management here it makes sense. It only takes one idiot with initiative to reach the top. Once he/she is there it goes Soouth in a hurry. That person will be sure not to hire somebody better than him and we all know that shit flows downward. Then the field personell have to work miracles to make things work and meet the goals. I tried to fix that attacking the problem in the design group. What a huge mistake. I messed with the wrong marine. Did not work well for me. As a result of that most of my responsabilities were taken away. I do not perform even a 10% of my job description. Now I am not dangerous for them.

The philosophy here is that managers, supervisors, and lead engineers do not need to have knowledge. They just have to be good communicators (sic). They hide behind diversity and safety initiatives to cloud the fact that they are uncapable of perform a job becuase they know a rat ass about it. But they have meetings everyday, they go to lunch together and cover their six. Things will hopefuly will change whenever their big boss leaves :holyness: In the meantime I am still here. That means more time to post at EB.


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## humner (Oct 5, 2010)

This goes back to what I was talking about in an earlier post. Personally I am not an engineer, I have passed the FE and am taking the PE again. But I think the states should have a real breakdown on what an engineer is and who can call themselves one.


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## Kephart P.E. (Oct 5, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> snickerd3 said:
> 
> 
> > so he must have at least passed the FE exam to even be welcomed into this society. Taking liberties with the joint membership they accept.
> ...


I would tend to agree with you DK, except where he might endanger the public or screw up something for the company you both work for.

Other than those 2 instances, leave him to his delusion.


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## Kephart P.E. (Oct 5, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> chaosiscash said:
> 
> 
> > I would suggest taking the high road and letting it go. I'm a firm believer in picking your battles, winning the battles you pick, and making sure that winning is worth the consequences. Basically, make sure the juice is worth the squeeze. In this case, for me, it wouldn't be worth it.
> ...



I was once in a similar position, I took the tact of recommending my boss for all sort of projects and he had far too big a head to turn any down. Then once he had made a large mess of them, they had to have myself and another engineer clean up the mess. Luckily the engineering group was small enough I could block his efforts to have others "fix" his mess.

Just keep giving him rope and don't allow him to hide all the failures.


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## DVINNY (Oct 13, 2010)

Sounds like a classic case of *PE-ness envy*.

and your boss has it.


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## Dark Knight (Oct 13, 2010)

DVINNY said:


> Sounds like a classic case of *PE-ness envy*.
> and your boss has it.


Not a chance. How can he be envious(spelling check please)? He is a member of a National Society of Professional Engineers since 2000 :appl: , and also member of more than 5 socio-professional organizations like Toastmasters. :true:

He is not an EIT but...What?

He is all the other things. B) I am just an insignificant engineer under his supervision.

By the way; He sent me a procedure he revised so I can revise his revision(redundant...isn't it?). It is incredible how many cosmetics changes he made to the document and how many technical points he missed. I wrote him an e-mail with 4 paragraphs explaining where and why changes are needed. It would not be that bad but the procedure has 17 pages with 15 of them being copied definitions. A page and a half with technical stuff and he missed more than 75% of what he should have corrected. :th_rockon:

I wonder if he knows what NCEES is.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 13, 2010)

Dark Knight said:


> I wonder if he knows what NCEES is.


Isn't it the brand name of a mechanical pencil?


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## Sschell (Oct 13, 2010)

^that made me laugh so hard that I farted.

It stinks.

I'm leaving.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 13, 2010)

^Wow! I accomplished even more than I set out to!!!


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