# Do I take this opportunity?



## peat337 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey guys, I was just reading some posts about job advice and most replies state take the job over unemployment. Well I just wanted to see what you guys think of my case.

I recently moved to Southern California, have been here for 3 weeks, and responded to a craigslist ad for a position. I received a call the next day and interviewed the following day. Everything went great and the next day I went in for a follow-up interview where I was offered a position and the compensation was almost 20% less then average and 10% less than I was making back east.

So I just wanted to know what everyone thinks. The company is very small (7 employees) and has been around for less than 5 years. They are a control systems integrator dealing with various municipal services specializing in Siemens controls. The owners plan is to expand in the future and his plans sounded sound. He has a good sense of direction. My question for everyone is what do you think about compensation at a small company will be once I am there? If a small company expands does this relate to increased compensation?

I will also be taking my PE exam in 2012. This was another point where the owner (not a PE) was very interested in. If you need any more info let me know.


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## Supe (Jan 13, 2011)

Something to consider is whether you were comfortable with your lifestyle back east. Depending where on the east coast you were previously, even the same dollar amount can get you waaaaaaaaaay less in SoCal. My other big concern would be the fact that such a small specialty niche can be feast or famine.

I'd probably take the job just to have some income for the time being unless you have some other very serious prospects, and continue searching in the meantime. I don't think you'd have anything to lose in that situation if no other sacrifices are required on your part.


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## snickerd3 (Jan 13, 2011)

comparing eastside of the country area and westside area salaries at face value isn't going to be a fair comparison. Do you think you will like what the job entails and will you be able to live the life you want with the salary they are offering? if you say yes to both then why not go for it. Of course he likes the idea of a PE, then he can bill you out for more $$, but that doesn't mean it will translate into more money for you, but it could, you never know.

side note...i just had a deja vu momment typing that....that was weird


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## peat337 (Jan 13, 2011)

Thanks for the quick replies.

The only thing I am worried about taking the job and looking is the job hoping image on my resume. My last job back in New Jersey was only for 10 months and I feel like taking a job and leaving it in a year have the job hopper stigma attached to it.

Plus when I spoke to the people at the place they make it seem like they want me to stay with them for a long time, so long that my kids would work there. That is quite a statement to make to a 26 year old moving out of his parents house to California.

How do you guys feel about taking a job for only a year or so and then moving on?


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## Supe (Jan 13, 2011)

You can explain the 10 month one easily with a move. I honestly think that given this economic climate, employers will be doing less questioning of short job stints and lengthy periods without work, especially when you've only been at it a few years.


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## Trev... P.E. (Jan 13, 2011)

It sounds like this is a sales &amp; service company... is it?

I work for a smallish engineered mechanical products sales &amp; service company (~100 ppl in the USA , around 10-15 per branch). I'm one of the only degreed engineers in the company... I work applications (design the equipment we sell) as well as doing some sales of my own in my small territory... No pay rise in the three years I've been here until two weeks ago when they finally gave me 12% to my base. They make as many excuses as they can come up with until they fear they might lose you. I've been running around collecting my EIT, LEED credentials and started talking PE recently... So I think they know I'm credentialing up a resume.. which I am. A pay rise like mine comes around only when they NEED you to function, and it would hurt them if I left... Just saying don't expect a raise at a small outfit unless you make yourself indispensable. And if you are in industrial sales &amp; service as it sounds like you are, there ain't no billing you out at a higher rate... But it looks good on marketing materials.

So what role would you have? Inside sales/engineering? Outside field work?...


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## peat337 (Jan 13, 2011)

Well they are an industrial controls integrator. So they create the control panels for the systems in place at these facilities.

So they actually manufacturer the control panels themselves. My position at the company would be entry level EE. I would be putting together the drawings, creating BOMs, and other entry level stuff. He asked if I don't mind learning, which is always a weird question. Does anybody on an interview actually say no, I just want to do the work you have listed an no more?

Does working at a small place also increase stagnation? If they are not getting many projects could I potentially get stuck just doing the entry level work for a long time? I mean I don't mind working in AutoCAD but just doing drafting type work might make me go crazy.

My other fear is the pay. I have worked at several place where raises were no existent and fear that if I take a low paying job it might haunt me for a while since pretty much everyone likes to know your salary history. I mean I guess you can explain taking a lower salary because of the economy later on.


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## Trev... P.E. (Jan 13, 2011)

In terms of stagnation, ABSOLUTELY! They have to hire someone to replace you before you can move on, which in your case would mean a significant percentage increase to the overhead. The other issue is if you become very good at your job, then it's in their interests to keep you there. Additionally, at a small place you will be exposed to a much wider variety of work, there simply aren't enough people to do everything... This can mean a lot more interesting things fall in your lap, but also a lot of bureaucratic &amp; back office functions too, it's a two edged sword. On the flip-side, at a small place if someone was to leave in a more senior role, it may make sense for them to promote you, since you already know the ropes, so promotion can be either non-existent or accelerated depending on how lucky you get.

Based on the job description, I would rule out commissions to bump up your total pay then. You _might_ get an annual bonus, but I wouldn't count on much. So if the money is going to be insufficient, you need to get it now. The question is, are you in a position to say no; could you hold out for another 2,3,6 months if they turn you down? Are you their perfect candidate? That will determine how strong a position you can take. Of course never be rude, there are ways to negotiate without alienating anyone. How do you know you are 20% below market? Try a salary.com report to test your assumptions, I figure these are a little on the high side with their market rates, but can make good ammunition in your negotiations, for ~$20 it might be a good investment.

You are spot-on with some of your concerns, hiring managers look down on job hopping, no two ways about it, it looks like you can't commit to anything. You don't have to put very short tenures on your resume though, if this ended up being a two month gig, I wouldn't put it down at all in a couple of jobs time... And yes, everyone wants to know what you're paid now so that they can get you as cheaply as possible. Some require proof after they hire you too. Unless you pull the old "that's company confidential information that I swore to keep private and I'm not comfortable divulging at this time"

So basically, do you expect anything better to come along? 20% is a big chunk of change...


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## navyasw02 (Jan 13, 2011)

If you can afford to hold out, I would. A 10% pay cut between east and west coast is more like 20 or 25% considering the cost of living out here. I dont know how others feel about craigslist, but I find (based on my wife's experience job hunting over the years) that companies that advertise on craigslist for jobs aren't worth working for. She's worked for a few and they underpay and they've had weak or no benefits. I could be generalizing here, but if they cant pony up some money to pay for marketing jobs on monster or similar, they're not going to pony up when it's time to pay you. While this may not be the case for all companies, and while some do advertise on many sites simultaneously including craigslist, I think it's buyer beware.


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## Trev... P.E. (Jan 13, 2011)

navyasw02 said:


> If you can afford to hold out, I would. A 10% pay cut between east and west coast is more like 20 or 25% considering the cost of living out here. I dont know how others feel about craigslist, but I find (based on my wife's experience job hunting over the years) that companies that advertise on craigslist for jobs aren't worth working for. She's worked for a few and they underpay and they've had weak or no benefits. I could be generalizing here, but if they cant pony up some money to pay for marketing jobs on monster or similar, they're not going to pony up when it's time to pay you. While this may not be the case for all companies, and while some do advertise on many sites simultaneously including craigslist, I think it's buyer beware.


Good point on Craigslist, how much is a monster ad anyhow???

As for cost of living, depends on the city on the East though... NYC aint cheap!


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## udpolo15 (Jan 14, 2011)

Trev said:


> Good point on Craigslist, how much is a monster ad anyhow???


I actually work for a well respected mid size consulting firm and I know some of our office swear by craiglist for new hires.

With respect to the opportunity, a few point to think about.

1) A small company, especially one that is growing, can offer opportunities to work outside of your core competencies. This will position you well for other opportunities if things don't pan out.

2) I wouldn't take the job if you are going to continue to look for other jobs. I wouldn't be concerned as a hiring manager is a saw 1 or 2 years, but if I saw 6 months, I would raise a red flag.

3) How is the job market, are you getting a lot of interviews, etc. If this is your only bite you've had in 3 months, it might be worth taking.

4) Discuss the pay issue with the owner. Can you work out an incentive plan that will bring you inline with average comp if you and/or the company hit certain benchmarks.

just some stuff to think about for what they're worth.


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## andyrich (Jan 14, 2011)

Here is my 2 cents on the subject, FWIW...

In the short term, you may want to take the job, depending on your immediate financial needs, etc.

But for the long term, I would open up the options beyond just this one job. You should do a complete job search that starts with the preferences you have for a job (location, size, type of work). Then, identify 30 to 40 companies that fit that profile. Once you do that, do everything you can to get in front of those companies. If you get 5 interviews, then you have done well. From 5 interviews, hopefully you can get a couple offers.

Keep in mind that when you go after a job posted in an ad online or in print, you have stiff competition, and the hire may have already been made. but, if you go through a job search as described above (and within books like 48 days to the work you love, what color is my parachute, etc), then you will be in the drivers seat.

We as engineers spend hours and months making plans for controls, buildings, and roads. But, we do not spend near enough time planning out out job search... hopefully this gives you some ideas that will help you.

Regards,

Andy at civil pe exam


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## peat337 (Jan 14, 2011)

Thanks for all the feedback, If only I could receive so much feedback on my career search from those online listings.

Well this was my first interview in the 3 weeks I have been unemployed so that was nice start. As for finance, I made sure to save money for a rainy day or well for the next several rainy months, so fiscally I am covered for the near future. I suppose this is a reason why I am not jumping at this opportunity as I have only begun a job search and am not worried about not having a steady income (but getting it back would be nice.)

As far as asking him for more money, he was very hesitant about giving me more money. I didn't even ask for the average, which I gathered from salary.com, engineeringsalary.com and by looking at the ranges of pay listed on similar positions. I just listed my previous salary and he assumed that is what I was asking for. It felt like a used car sale, we wrote down by previous salary and then next to it he put what he wants to offer me.

andyrich - thanks for the book advice, I was about to borrow the _what color is your parachute_ book but went with a jeffery j. fox book instead. Will pick those two up in a second as they are in the section right next to my table at the library.

A follow up question for you guys would be; how do you feel about a person showing up to the front door of your office? I have seen this advice listed in several book but have seen pretty poor results first hand. Several people showed up to my company asking if there were any positions as they were looking for a person to replace me. So have you guys had any luck in doing this?

What other quirky advice might you guys have that worked for you in the past?


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## willsee (Jan 14, 2011)

peat337 said:


> Thanks for all the feedback, If only I could receive so much feedback on my career search from those online listings.
> Well this was my first interview in the 3 weeks I have been unemployed so that was nice start. As for finance, I made sure to save money for a rainy day or well for the next several rainy months, so fiscally I am covered for the near future. I suppose this is a reason why I am not jumping at this opportunity as I have only begun a job search and am not worried about not having a steady income (but getting it back would be nice.)
> 
> As far as asking him for more money, he was very hesitant about giving me more money. I didn't even ask for the average, which I gathered from salary.com, engineeringsalary.com and by looking at the ranges of pay listed on similar positions. I just listed my previous salary and he assumed that is what I was asking for. It felt like a used car sale, we wrote down by previous salary and then next to it he put what he wants to offer me.
> ...


I would not show up to an office, unannounced. Most hiring managers are very busy and I think it is rude to do that.

My last two jobs I got I just found companies I'd like to work for and sent them my information. They said they had been looking for someone but don't advertise due to the wrong people applying for the jobs and needing to sort through all of the BS.


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## navyasw02 (Jan 14, 2011)

udpolo15 said:


> Trev said:
> 
> 
> > Good point on Craigslist, how much is a monster ad anyhow???
> ...


I may be generalizing a bit, but every company that my wife has worked for that has hired off craigslist has been crap. One was a small IT contracting company, another a small .com, another a real estate agency, and the fourth was a big name financial company. All had a common theme - pay crap money and treat like dirt. This was even before the economy hit the skids. I'm just weary from here out about any company that uses craigslist as anything more than a supplemental means of finding employees.


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## peat337 (Jan 14, 2011)

Andy - Do you have any more books to recommend? I borrowed those two books and they are great.


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## ironman (Jan 16, 2011)

Also make sure the company pays for the move, it can be very expensive to move that far for an unknown, they should be taking the gamble not you. Although as this economy pushes people further and further into surfdome companies are paying less and less for moving expenses.


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## CbusPaul (Jan 17, 2011)

Surfdome?!?! Is that like Biodome for surfers? Does Pauly Shore star in that one too?


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## Supe (Jan 17, 2011)

Surfdome!


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## CbusPaul (Jan 17, 2011)

I'd take that over fatty money anyday. Any company that wants to put me into Surfdome is one that I'd like to work for.


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## Supe (Jan 17, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> I'd take that over fatty money anyday. Any company that wants to put me into Surfdome is one that I'd like to work for.



I bet there's one in the Google offices.


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## CbusPaul (Jan 17, 2011)

But they won't pay for my moving expenses.


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## ironman (Jan 17, 2011)

Supe said:


> Surfdome!


That would be something I could sign up for if I were in the OP's situation. Unfortunatly all joking aside, companies know that people are desparate so they are cutting things like moving expenses and sign on bonuses. However the census data shows that people are staying put and just moving in with family because the costs of travel are sky rocketing.


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## CbusPaul (Jan 17, 2011)

In all seriousness though, read the original post in which he said he recently moved to Southern California to look for a job. The company does not need to pay for any moving costs because they would have hired a local.


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## peat337 (Jan 17, 2011)

Surfdome? Well that sounds great, I actually have a friend who works for a company that designs standing wave machines but unfortunately the market for $1,000,000 is not that great currently so no job opportunities there.

I feel like I should be looking for temporary/contract work so I could be constantly looking for work and be earning an income while gaining some more experience.

What is everyone's experiences in temporary/contract work in the engineering world?


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## ironman (Jan 18, 2011)

peat337 said:


> Surfdome? Well that sounds great, I actually have a friend who works for a company that designs standing wave machines but unfortunately the market for $1,000,000 is not that great currently so no job opportunities there.
> I feel like I should be looking for temporary/contract work so I could be constantly looking for work and be earning an income while gaining some more experience.
> 
> What is everyone's experiences in temporary/contract work in the engineering world?


Depends on how many years of experience you have, my experience has been that it is near impossible to get independant contract work unless you have AT LEAST 10 years of experience, but I have seen requirements for up to 15-20 years experience. The pay is really good though. Maybe its different in other states or other industries.


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## Bob Engineer (Jan 22, 2011)

i think u should take that opportunities....


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## solomonb (Jan 22, 2011)

OK, let's explore your options. You are already in So Cal, have resources saved up and are trying to find a job. You may wish to poke around a little longer, however, it may be worth it to take the job, even though it is less than you had desired.

A. Plan on working there for 2 years, no matter what. You can stand on your head for 2 years if you have to-- it is only 24 months.

B. You will learn the area, the companies, the customers and the competitors as well as your discipline.

C. I do agree that a smaller firm provides you with greater opportunity to do a wide variety of tasks that you may not receive in a larger, more specialized firm. There is benefit in this experence.

D. Live very frugally to begin with.. Yes, I know that you are away from home, a degree, job, etc. Live frugally and make every penny count.

E. Become indispensible to the company. Learn what nobody else wants to learn, specialize in what no body else wants to specialize in and push hard.

F. If this owner fails to see your value, one of your competitors will most certainly see it and will offer you a much better position.

G. Get involved with after hours events== baseball, soccer, church, service club, whatever you need, do it. Get your name out there so people know you. This is tough for many engineers, however, do it.

H. In 18 months, if the salary has not had an increase, no increased or exciting job assignments, begin looking at other opportunities, planning on bailing out at the 24 month period.

I. I think in today's world, they will give you a raise and push you hard if you show what you can do.

Good Luck!


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