# Tankless water heaters



## Capt Worley PE (May 7, 2009)

A friend of mine has family in the Czech Republic and visits often. He confirms what I've heard through the grapevine: tankless water heaters are far cheaper in Europe.

What's the deal? Greedy companies, or obscure but expensive to meet gov regulations? Or something else?


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## OSUguy98 (May 7, 2009)

better or "better" always comes with a premium

I've thought about the tankless setup (since I didn't purchase the water heater that's in my house, judging it's age at around 12 years, so I may be buying a new one soon)...

Aren't there tax breaks/etc involved with them?


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## Master slacker (May 7, 2009)

One word sums up everything - "*Green*"

:jerkit:


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## kevo_55 (May 7, 2009)

^^ :appl:

I agree 100%!!


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## MA_PE (May 7, 2009)

because everything in Europe is better and more efficient than it is here. Ask any "American".


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## snickerd3 (May 7, 2009)

at least around here it is hard to find a dealer or someone qualified/lisenced to install one. still a novelty type of an item so it will remain expensive until more people start buying them.


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## SPSUEngineer (May 7, 2009)

how much is one for an average home in the US? It would be nice to always have hot water and save on the ever increasing natural gas bill.


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## MA_PE (May 7, 2009)

chucktown has some hands on experience with the newer tankless systems. Search here or send him a PM


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## Capt Worley PE (May 7, 2009)

Master slacker said:


> One word sums up everything - "*Green*"
> :jerkit:


Not a big surprise there.



MA_PE said:


> because everything in Europe is better and more efficient than it is here. Ask any "American".


Yeah, that whole 'everything is better in Europe' attitude always gets to me.



SPSUEngineer said:


> how much is one for an average home in the US? It would be nice to always have hot water and save on the ever increasing natural gas bill.


Last time I looked, about six months ago, it was 3K just for the equipment, not including installation.


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## Chucktown PE (May 7, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Last time I looked, about six months ago, it was 3K just for the equipment, not including installation.



Your numbers are way way off Capt. You can buy the biggest one that Home Depot carries for around $1200. If you buy the outdoor unit the installation cost is minimal and I would say it is something that your average do-it-yourselfer could tackle.


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## PEara (May 7, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> A friend of mine has family in the Czech Republic and visits often. He confirms what I've heard through the grapevine: tankless water heaters are far cheaper in Europe.
> What's the deal? Greedy companies, or obscure but expensive to meet gov regulations? Or something else?


I do not know about the Europe tank-less water heater pricing but even in the US tank-less water heaters prices are different manufacturer to manufacturer and you should compare apple to apple, and prices are depend to type of application and size of water heater. For example see below for 199000 BTU input tank-less water heater pricing for three different manufacturers in the US:

- Noritz 8.4gal/min is about $2400. www.noritz.com (This manufacturer has smaller size for about $800)

- Rheem GT-199PVN is $1000 http://www.rheemtankless.com/content/

- Takagi T-K3 is about $945 http://www.takagi.com/ (This manufacturer has smaller size for about $550)


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## TouchDown (May 7, 2009)

Just wait until every house has one and in the morning when people go to take a hot shower, it'll brown out the grid because of the elec demand.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 7, 2009)

Shoot, from Rinnai's own numbers, the tankless heater only would save me 60 bucks over my gas unit per year. That'd take a long time to get a ROI.


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## Chucktown PE (May 7, 2009)

But you'd be green. You can't put a price tag on that right?


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## MA_PE (May 7, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> But you'd be green. You can't put a price tag on that right?


not to mention pseudo-european


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## Capt Worley PE (May 7, 2009)

Maybe I should put on my black and white horizontal striped shirt, put on a beret and grow a pencil thin mustuche so I can be Mr. Frenchy-frenchman.


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## Kephart P.E. (May 7, 2009)

MA_PE said:


> not to mention pseudo-european


If it makes anyone feel any better, there are plenty of Europeans that make the same point about the US. ie, in America people work harder for shorter vacations and therefore there are more jobs available.

Mostly it is conservatives lusting over our Capital Gains taxes and lack of welfare/health care system.

Grass is greener on both sides.


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## Kephart P.E. (May 7, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Shoot, from Rinnai's own numbers, the tankless heater only would save me 60 bucks over my gas unit per year. That'd take a long time to get a ROI.


You could also calculate in replacement costs.

Typically the first thing to fail (especially in a cheap Water heater) is the tank. With no tank your new tankless system should vastly outlast your water heater tank. Plus if anyone has ever seen the mess that (leaking tank) could make the decision should be easy.

Plus can't you get a big fat a$$ tax break for installing one?


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## cement (May 7, 2009)

when the power was out a few weeks ago and the rest of the house was starting to get cold, we still had plenty of hot water for a shower from our gas hot water heater.

the neighbors were cold and smelly.


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## MGX (May 7, 2009)

So green != $green?


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## Flyer_PE (May 7, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Maybe I should put on my black and white horizontal striped shirt, put on a beret and grow a pencil thin mustuche so I can be Mr. Frenchy-frenchman.


Wouldn't going the "Frenchy-frenchman" route negate the need of hot water for a shower in the first place?


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## Chucktown PE (May 7, 2009)

Speaking of the dipshit Eurpoeans...only in Europe would they reduce the number of hours in a work week to "create jobs".

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CN...;show_article=1

This has got to be the dumbest thing I've ever heard come out of government.


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## Dleg (May 7, 2009)

I can get (non UL-listed) Chinese-made, propane-fired outdoor tankless heaters for $85 each out here. They are small and you need one outside each bathroom or fixture for them to work right, but a few friends who have them swear by them. (maybe I should open an eBay store selling them to you suckers.... )

I'd personally rather opt for a UL-listed appliance, and an electric one just to save the trouble of buying gas all the time. I already have a gas range that's fed with a 90lb tank, and it's such a pain to get it refilled, and it always runs out on a Friday afternoon, leaving us stuck without an oven until Monday. But then again, when our power was out twice a day for 3-4 hours at a time last year, a gas-fired water heater would have been a nice alternative....


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## SkyWarp (May 7, 2009)

I think the big advantage for a tankless heater is when you have lots of people in the same house taking showers back to back and whoever is last in line with a tank gets a cold shower.

I saw this little device somewhere that may be a cheap solution: http://www.ecodrain.ca/


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## csb (Jan 16, 2014)

I'm reviving this topic. Does anyone have a tankless water heater?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jan 16, 2014)

^^^ My parents do. They really like it.


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## snickerd3 (Jan 16, 2014)

we looked into it but the whole installer needing to be certified/licensed jumped the installation costs because there weren't any local.


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## blybrook PE (Jan 16, 2014)

The new house has a tankless water heater / boiler combo. Its great for when two showers are needed at the same time laundry / dishwasher is running.

Also have a propane powered unit for remote work, needs to be reset every 30 min., but is otherwise handy to have around.


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## goodal (Jan 16, 2014)

You can get a good size, gas fired one for around $1000. I don't know if they ever pay back, because your standard electric tank is ~ $150-$200. You would have to use alot of water to make that back in less than 10 years. The real advantage is never running out of hot water. My dad has an electric. Took two 40 amp circuits. It works ok for a household of 2, but you cant use more than 2 things at once or everybody's water pressure drops. If you have a house of any significant size, you should use a gas fired heater. Just be sure to get the pipe shroud, insulate and maybe even heat trace the lines outside.


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 16, 2014)

csb said:


> I'm reviving this topic. Does anyone have a tankless water heater?


There's a certain member on this board who wants nothing to do with anything "tankless".


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## csb (Jan 16, 2014)

> Just be sure to get the pipe shroud, insulate and maybe even heat trace the lines outside.




I have no idea what you just said.


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## Krakosky (Jan 16, 2014)

Did someone say tank?!


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jan 16, 2014)

The Tank is back?


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## goodal (Jan 17, 2014)

I've been asked several times by owners/contractors about my exterior, gas fired, tankless water heaters, "Is that thing gonna freeze?". My response everytime has been "well, I haven't had one to yet". That changed last month. I had a contractor call and say that one froze on a job we designed 2 years ago in 27F weather. I think something fishy is going on, because it faced colder temps last winter and didn't freeze, not to mention that it is supposed to be good down to 5F, BUT I can no longer just blow them off. I now specify the factory pipe shroud (wind break), insulation and heat tracing for any exposed lines.


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## csb (Jan 17, 2014)

Wait, are there people other than Dleg that have water heaters outside? I mean, we have a water main, but it's buried under the driveway and the only part that sticks out is the meter.


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## goodal (Jan 17, 2014)

My experience is pretty much south of Kentucky.


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## csb (Jan 17, 2014)

That sounds like a euphemism for when things go really badly. "Things have gone pretty much south of Kentucky."

Now I get why I didn't pick up what you were putting down.


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## goodal (Jan 17, 2014)

^ about blew tea out my nose.


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## Master slacker (Jan 17, 2014)

Heh Kentucky


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## goodal (Jan 20, 2014)

drunk post much master slacker?


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## envirotex (Jan 20, 2014)

it was pizza night...


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## Dleg (Jan 20, 2014)

csb said:


> Wait, are there people other than Dleg that have water heaters outside? I mean, we have a water main, but it's buried under the driveway and the only part that sticks out is the meter.




Hey now, I don't even HAVE a water heater - took it out 5 years ago after it failed, and never missed the extra $100 a month in electricity that went with it.

Although the last few days have been pretty cold, with no sun heating the pipes in the ground for a week now.... and the wife and the kids hate it, but hey... they're not paying the bills!

I've actually considered these tankless heaters. You can buy made-in and made-for China models here for around $300, but to be honest I am terrified of putting them inside my house. I have some friends who have mounted them on the walls outside of their house, near the bathrooms. I might try that, but then again I might just go for a solar water heater and be done with all of that hassle. Or a big, black plastic tank.... those things work here, too, if you don't mind the pressure loss of going gravity.


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## Road Guy (Jan 20, 2014)

I wish someone would come up with an app that would allow me to turn the hot water off to the house when my kids are in there too long... That would be f'n awesome!


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## matt267 PE (Jan 20, 2014)

Road Guy said:


> I wish someone would come up with an app that would allow me to turn the hot water off to the house when my kids are in there too long... That would be f'n awesome!


Ball valve would work too.


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## Ship Wreck PE (Jan 20, 2014)

You can adjust shower valve if you have modern scald proof faucet to only allow Luke warm water in their shower. They will hurry.


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## Road Guy (Jan 20, 2014)

Mrs RG likes really hot showers... I was thinking if something where I could just roll over on the sofa, grab my iPad and push a button... Not walk. "All the way" down to the basement


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## matt267 PE (Jan 21, 2014)

Road Guy said:


> Mrs RG likes really hot showers... I was thinking if something where I could just roll over on the sofa, grab my iPad and push a button... Not walk. "All the way" down to the basement


RG, this sounds like a "first world problem" to me.


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## csb (Jan 21, 2014)

Have you tried taping a walkie talkie to the shower and then just yelling, "GET OUT OF THE DAMN SHOWER!" into the other walkie talkie?


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## Capt Worley PE (Jan 21, 2014)

Or do this:


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## Master slacker (Jan 21, 2014)

^^^ That is one of my favorite gifs of all time.


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 21, 2014)

Road Guy said:


> I wish someone would come up with an app that would allow me to turn the hot water off to the house when my kids are in there too long... That would be f'n awesome!


Sounds like a controls engineering job! Challenge accepted. How much are you looking to spend? :dancingnaughty:


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## Road Guy (Jan 21, 2014)

I would go $1.99 for this one


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 21, 2014)

^ well that's not fun. I was going to get you an electric actuator valve with Ethernet/IP connectivity. But it isn't $1.99! LOL


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## csb (Jan 23, 2014)

Being lazy ain't cheap.


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## Master slacker (Jan 24, 2014)

Value engineer that bitch, KF!


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## Freon (Feb 10, 2014)

One of my tank heaters shit the bed. I am having it replaced with a gas-fired tankless unit. I'll let you know how it goes. I'd do it myself, but since I am in Kazakhstan for a few more days, my neighbor, a general contractor, sent his plumber over to take care of it for me.


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