# Do you tithe 10%



## Road Guy (Oct 7, 2013)

I made this a Poll so you can hide your answer from us if you’re afraid to say 

Ok backstory, I am a bad human being and have never really been a churchgoer since I became an adult.

My parents were big time members of a huge church back in Atlanta (Dad was the paid bell choir director, a retired gig that paid him around $30K a year- so obviously if they pay the bell choir director that kind of cheddar they are a good size church)

But in the last 2 years my kids became a part of their church and more importantly the youth group, which they had a ton of fun *&amp; did some actual work also..

So I am trying to find them a church home here in Colorado, but since I cant hide under my parents cloak of involvement any more I am actually going to have to show up, and this means they will want my money… We already visited one church yesterday and the pastor asked “Where are you from and what do you do for a living?” of course when they hear engineer I am assuming they are thinking $10K/year!!!!!!! (nope aint gonna happen)

But for those of you who go regularly do you really give 10%? Hopefully off the net and not the gross?

I think if we are active members (kids) we need to pay something but I cant see honestly any more than a hundred or two hundred a month? And Even that you would have to pry out of my wives cold dead hands….

Also it should be noted that I have never been to a church where wearing a Denver Broncos jersey was acceptable attire but apparently at the Broomfield United Methodist Church that is strongly encouraged…


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## mudpuppy (Oct 7, 2013)

There is no option for zero in your poll. I don't go to church, but I think last time I was in one (Unitarian, is that even really a Church?) I threw $5 in the collection plate. That was like 3 years ago.

Don't worry, it's a tax deduction. Sure I'll help subsidize your religion.


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## MA_PE (Oct 7, 2013)

So I chose the &lt;$100/month but I only give when we go to Mass which is quite infrequently now. I have never been very active in the church (roman catholic) and truly have never understood the "tithing". I figure I "tithe" too much to Uncle Sam to pick up another dependent.

Kudos to those that do attend, tithe and are active in their religion. As long as they're happy with the arrangement, good for them.


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## csb (Oct 7, 2013)

Road Guy said:


> I think if we are active members (kids) we need to pay something but I cant see honestly any more than a hundred or two hundred a month? And Even that you would have to pry out of my wives cold dead hands….
> 
> Also it should be noted that I have never been to a church where wearing a Denver Broncos jersey was acceptable attire but apparently at the Broomfield United Methodist Church that is strongly encouraged…




Our church is like that...you can tell who's playing based on the jersey's that day. Also, if noon Mass is light, the Broncos are playing the early game. Packed? They play prime time. Come as you are and all that jazz. I did notice that yesterday the family that usually wears all Cowboys stuff wasn't wearing any of it...



mudpuppy said:


> Don't worry, it's a tax deduction. Sure I'll help subsidize your religion.




:Locolaugh:

Our church doesn't require a 10% tithe to go to the church. It's 10% donations total, with a certain percentage to the church. I think we hit around 6% to church, 4% to others.


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## Road Guy (Oct 7, 2013)

(MP)Then this poll isnt for you...

Trust me you have no bigger proponent of the flat tax or nationwide sales tax then me...

discussion for another time, I still bet I pay more in taxes than you do (lets talk in April)


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## Dark Knight (Oct 7, 2013)

Whatever I feel. Sometimes more than 10%, other less than 2%. Never really cared about that. Never will.

My kids and I contributed in the worship team, never got paid, never asked for it. Once, another church invited us to conduct the worship session and to sing some songs before the message. They paid us for doing that. I accepted the money but then, after the service dropped the envelope with whatever they paid us in a special box they had for special offerings. From my point of view I owe God more than I will ever be able to pay.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Oct 7, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> There is no option for zero in your poll. I don't go to church.


This.

I think the fact that the church itself is tax exempt despite it's involvement in government is tithe enough...


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## Road Guy (Oct 7, 2013)

I added 0 for you (which is what I currently have paid the last 20 years)

I am not a huge fan of "church" to be honest. but it has been great for my kids and they have experienced some things they wouldnt in the normal world, but I (being a responsible individual) cant let them go and be a free loader either..

What does really bother me though, we checked out several church’s websites and I would say 99% of them had several videos that were basically about how you can give money to the church. Like on the main page, very disturbing IMO…

Church’s will prey on the elderly and encourage them to give their life savings all to the church instead of their children. Seen that happen a lot of times (personally)


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## mudpuppy (Oct 7, 2013)

Road Guy said:


> discussion for another time, I still bet I pay more in taxes than you do (lets talk in April)




Ok, but the ground rule is you have to divide your number by two since it represents you and your wife. Or better yet, figure it as a percentage of gross income.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 7, 2013)

we usually give $15-20 when we attend. so less than $100 a month. If the topic of money/tithing was a huge topic for them then we wouldn't attend there. But we also haven't officially "joined" either. That whole process is weird to me. Having to be interviewed to determine if they want you as part of their church. The we attend doesn't do that, but others did and we kept looking.


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## maryannette (Oct 7, 2013)

I don't tithe 10% (cash donation to church) and never have. I give more money now than I used to and have always given a lot of time. My guess would be that very few people give 10% of their income to the church. The numbers would be huge and most churches don't have balance sheets like that. I have never liked the "tithing campaigns". It has to be what you think is right. Just start with what you think is right.


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## Sapper PE LS (Oct 7, 2013)

So, when I was a staunch fundamentalist, Biblical literalist, I tithed 10% of my gross earnings. When I was a militant atheist, I loathed the concept of any church asking for money. Now I give what I can when I happen to go. If the church provides a decent service, provides opportunities for my kids to have social interaction, gives my wife and I a community (and doesn't take a hateful stance against any group of people), then I'll give them some money.

If I walk in and they spend half an hour asking for money, the place seems basically dead, or they subscribe to a philosophy that I find revolting, they won't get a dime, but I will happily eat the donuts and drink the coffee in the fellowship hall afterwards.


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## sycamore PE (Oct 7, 2013)

I don't give 10% to the church. I'm Catholic and they basically say that we all need to discern for ourselves what to give of our time, talent, and treasure. I do give a lot to my parish, my diocese, and to charities of my preference.


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## Road Guy (Oct 7, 2013)

We haven't found a place yet but this is great feedback... Sapper I agree with you dead on this one...

Wife and I just don't want to be at a place that is always hitting you up for money...


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## Flyer_PE (Oct 8, 2013)

Ours doesn't hit us up for money too badly. They're continually begging for people to work the fundraising dinners and such though. Working that stuff can be pretty entertaining though since the alcohol flows pretty freely at Serbian events.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

I haven't been to church (ok, I went to Easter Service maybe 10 years ago to appease my MIL) since 1986. But, I have noticed that every time I draw near anything associated with a church (funeral, newsletters, etc) they have their hands out asking for money.

Money ruined organized religion, for me.



> I think the fact that the church itself is tax exempt despite it's involvement in government is tithe enough...


True.


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

Without sounding too churchy, there should be a field for &gt;10%. We give 13-14% of our gross income. We are about as conservative as they come, without being Amish, and do our best to do what the Bible says, as we interpret it. Deuteronomy says to tithe off your increase. Now I won't argue about it, because its not clearly defined, but I am trying to err on the side of giving more than God asks for, rather than less. We are at church, for one thing or another, 3 times a week or more. As the Dark Knight said above, I've been blessed far too much to try and pinch pennies with God. I've heard that you cant out give God. There are living examples in my church and family that have proven that. Some that gave sacrificially when they had nothing, now give astounding amount of money out of their abundance.


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## envirotex (Oct 8, 2013)

Sooo...our church looks at tithing a little differently. It's a missions based church, we give away more than 40% of what comes in the door, and we are aiming for more than 50%. So when we tithe, we sponsor someone to go on a mission trip by donating $500, or we buy supplies for building community center, or we buy groceries and prepare lunch for 40 camp counselors who are working at the week-long summer camp held at our church, or...You get the picture. It's hard to say exactly how much we tithe every year, but I would say it's less than 10%...it should be more. We never think that we have enough to be able to write that check, but some how there is always enough.

In terms of what the atmosphere is like at our church...we have the attitude, that anyone can come, however you are. Our pastor founded the church after he met a man that was nearly killed in a motorcycle accident. He invited the man to his church, and he actually showed up, but that man felt like he had to sit on the back row because he was covered in tattoos and wore jeans. Our pastor quit and started our church after, that. That philosophy fits with what we believe...Christ didn't sit down and break bread with just the elite and well-dressed, He surrounded himself with those who were more than a little rough around the edges...

SO, after saying a lot more about my faith than I probably should have...RG, I would encourage you and your family to keep looking. You'll find a "right" fit. Stay away from religion and you'll be OK.


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## knight1fox3 (Oct 8, 2013)

badal said:


> Without sounding too churchy, there should be a field for &gt;10%. We give 13-14% of our gross income. We are about as conservative as they come, without being Amish, and do our best to do what the Bible says, as we interpret it. Deuteronomy says to tithe off your increase. Now I won't argue about it, because its not clearly defined, but I am trying to err on the side of giving more than God asks for, rather than less. We are at church, for one thing or another, 3 times a week or more. As the Dark Knight said above, I've been blessed far too much to try and pinch pennies with God. I've heard that you cant out give God. There are living examples in my church and family that have proven that. Some that gave sacrificially when they had nothing, now give astounding amount of money out of their abundance.


Out of curiosity (and I'm not trying start an argument here), but can you explain to me what God needs money for? And US dollars at that, which isn't really worth all that much these days.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

badal said:


> We are about as conservative as they come, without being Amish, and do our best to *do what the Bible says, as we interpret it.*




Not trying to start anything, but....I think you can do one or the other, but not both.


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

Knightfox:

God doesn't need my money. I tithe because of what it does for me. God blesses a giving spirit. I have found that giving does something for me deep down. I am not saying that I am better than the next person that doesn't give anything, but there is a strange thing that happens when you realize everything you have is Gods and he is just letting you use it. My tithe is a way of showing my appreciation for the blessings in my life. If you saw my post about our work situation, you know right now we are in a bit of a money crunch. We are still giving the same percentage to church. Some may think this dumb, but as with so much about personal finance, its not about the math. Its about the attitude and spirit. I gave when money was good, and God blessed. I will give when it is not so good and I expect God will bless that spirit. We will see.

Capt:

What do you mean "one or the other"?


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## Exception Collection (Oct 8, 2013)

I tithe - or, when money is tight for whatever reason I record for later tithing* - 10%, though like csb my Church's policy is "give us a portion, give other charities a portion**".

Tithing is not a tip, to be given if the service is good. Tithing is not optional, to be given when the mood strikes me (unless I'm in critical need of the money; I'm not a saint). Tithing should not be given to obtain a monetary blessing; if you want to invest money, invest it at a financial organization. Tithing is critical to fulfilling God's Mission on Earth, and (imo) should be treated as such. Of course, that doesn't mean I'll tithe towards organizations that spend their money in ways I disapprove of; I refuse to tithe to a Catholic or Baptist church, though I might support an individual charity they run. Likewise, I refuse to tithe to a UCC (United Church of Christ, the denomination I belong to) church that uses church funds in ways I don't approve of (specifically, pro-choice work).

Also, I've always been taught that tithing should come off the gross, not the net.

As for the "tax exempt" issue, I feel that religious organizations should be required to prove that they should be tax-exempt. Yes, I realize that would generate headaches for a lot of perfectly legitimate churches. But there are far too many groups that take advantage of their status as religious organizations to line the pockets of the people running them; Operation Blessing being one that comes to mind. I also think that any church that involves itself in politics directly should have their status revoked (though able to get it back in a year or so), with the second such revocation being permanent.

*I try to catch up every few months even in a crisis, otherwise the amounts become to large to just donate and I'll never catch up.

**Donated goods don't count.



badal said:


> Knightfox:
> 
> God doesn't need my money. I tithe because of what it does for me. God blesses a giving spirit. I have found that giving does something for me deep down. I am not saying that I am better than the next person that doesn't give anything, but there is a strange thing that happens when you realize everything you have is Gods and he is just letting you use it. My tithe is a way of showing my appreciation for the blessings in my life. If you saw my post about our work situation, you know right now we are in a bit of a money crunch. We are still giving the same percentage to church. Some may think this dumb, but as with so much about personal finance, its not about the math. Its about the attitude and spirit. I gave when money was good, and God blessed. I will give when it is not so good and I expect God will bless that spirit. We will see.
> 
> ...


I suspect he means that if you are doing what the Bible says, there's no room for interpretation.

That might be something for a different thread, though.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

badal said:


> Capt:
> 
> What do you mean "one or the other"?




You can either do what the Bible says, or you can do what you interpret it to say. You cannot do both.


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## MA_PE (Oct 8, 2013)

EC based on your post I don't think you "tithe" at all

tithe (t







)

_n._
*1. *
*a. *A tenth part of one's annual income contributed voluntarily or due as a tax, especially for the support of the clergy or church.
*b. *The institution or obligation of paying tithes.



you simply donate to charities of your choice and target an amount of 10% of your gross income. This is very gernous of you but it's not a "tithe". Tithing in my interpretation is a regular payment to the church that one is a member of and not just a collection of charitable donations that may or may not be equal to 10%.


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

Ah, I see. Yes, there is room for interpretation. That's why I said I don't argue about the net or gross. I am doing what I believe is the intent of the scripture. A lot of times the Bible is perfectly clear (thou shalt not kill, commit adultery, covet your neighbors Camaro, etc) . So I try to do what it says (I'm no saint either), but there are definitely places that are open to interpretation. Tithing is one of those. Not about whether to do it or not, but the way you calculate it.


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## Exception Collection (Oct 8, 2013)

MA_PE said:


> EC based on your post I don't think you "tithe" at all
> 
> tithe (t
> 
> ...




The entirety of my tithe (10%) goes to either my church or charities that (in my opinion) do the Lord's work (aiding homeless, sick, ministering, etc). My other charitable giving (when I can) is in addition to the 10%, and tends to go to random irreligious charities or political causes that may or may not aid in the Lord's work directly.

This is in accordance with my Church's stance on tithing; the pastor at my old church stood up and said "please donate 5% to the church, and 5% to others." Of course, they also had their hand out a reasonably large amount of time, but it was generally fundraising for the cause of the month.

It should be noted that my churches have *never* treated the tithe as anything other than the way things *should* be done. No negative onus is attached to those that don't tithe, it's just a matter of what you should be doing. I wouldn't be thrown out of church if I never tithed a day in my life.


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## Road Guy (Oct 8, 2013)

The Old Testimate says 10% but the New Testimate says you should give "what you can" (IMO)


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## Sapper PE LS (Oct 8, 2013)

I'll also say that I don't pay anything to churches that obviously get plenty. I don't mind if the church makes millions and spends it on things that are genuinely good, like caring for the poor or whatever, but if the pastor makes millions, well, come on, there's probably about $800k per year that could be doing better work than sitting in your personal bank account buddy.

As I've stated before, I won't give to a church that engages in philosophies I detest, and one such philosophy is the "give until it hurts" mentality. I've sat in churches where the minister or deacon or whoever went on and on about how God blesses a cheerful giver and laid on the guilt so thick that you could cut it with a knife, and then you'd see the poor old folks or the single mother of three pull out their checkbook and write this months rent away to the church. And no, that isn't an exageration, I've seen people in foreclosure and bankruptcy still writing checks to the church. They were penniless when I knew them, they died penniless. Televangelists fall into this category as well as the point in my first paragraph.


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## envirotex (Oct 8, 2013)

MA_PE said:


> EC based on your post I don't think you "tithe" at all
> 
> tithe (t
> 
> ...




From Corinthians 8:12

12 For if the willingness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has, not according to what one does not have.

From Corinthians 9:7...

7 Each of you should give what you have decided in your heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

Also, Jesus himself taught about how to give...He said *sell everything*, and follow me. And He also said not to be righteous about tithing (or following any other laws of man, for that matter [i.e. the sabbath]) while forgetting about mercy and compassion...

And I promise, no more scripture today...


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

> Lights, camera, silence on the set
> 
> Tape rolling, 3-2-1 action
> 
> ...


Suicidal Tendencies--Send me your money


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## envirotex (Oct 8, 2013)

Reach out and touch faith...Your own, personal Jesus...


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

^That was an awesome song.

Still love the Dream on song/video.


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

Envirotex, IMO (and my pastors) when he said that to the rich young ruler, it was because that mans world was wrapped up in what he owned and how much he had. He was trying to see if he could forsake the worlds treasures and follow Christ. Again IMO, it was not an example, as some have said, that Christians should not be prosperous or have wealth. We simply are not to love this present world more than we do God.


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

Sapper, you are correct. There are scum out there that abuse simple minded folk and televangelist are part of it, for the most part.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

badal said:


> Ah, I see. Yes, there is room for interpretation.




I agree...which drove my SS nuts when I was a kid.

Especially when I noted that when the OT was written, a base 12 number system was being used, so 10% (1 in 10) was obviously a later modification to what the OT wroters actually wrote.


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## Exception Collection (Oct 8, 2013)

badal said:


> Envirotex, IMO (and my pastors) when he said that to the rich young ruler, it was because that mans world was wrapped up in what he owned and how much he had. He was trying to see if he could forsake the worlds treasures and follow Christ. Again IMO, it was not an example, as some have said, that Christians should not be prosperous or have wealth. We simply are not to love this present world more than we do God.




That's certainly a large part of it, but we're also supposed to use what we've been given to aid others. We don't need to bankrupt ourselves to do so, though, as long as money (or comfort) isn't our main motivator. That's what I've always been taught, at least.



Capt Worley PE said:


> badal said:
> 
> 
> > Ah, I see. Yes, there is room for interpretation.
> ...




Citation? I've never heard that the Hebrews used a duodecimal system.


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## engineergurl (Oct 8, 2013)

I thought the dewy decimal system was for books...

EG's blatant attempt to derail the thread before a train wreck occurs.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Oct 8, 2013)

I know the vast majority of churches are on the up-an-up, but I can't help but think of this when talking about churches and money:






And the song "Hellaluja" by ICP (an obvious rip on the scam of late-night Televangelism)



> [preacher] "Give God the first portion of your income, say that with me."
> [crowd repeats] "Give God the first portion of your income."
> [preacher] "Give it first! Not after the deducts. Not after the social security, and the hospitalization, and the malnutrition. Not after all these things on ya check, ya say 'I'ma give God a little what's left.' You do, and that's what
> you gonna get from God."
> ...


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

Hey, don't knock my gravy train there buddy. Mega churches, and their multiple phases of construction, help us make payroll.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

Locally, pastor of a megachurch is a state legislator.

Hmmm...


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## Road Guy (Oct 8, 2013)

I've got two friends from HS that are both pastors... Based on their Facebook posts they spend a lot of time during the week. Mtn biking, hunting, fishing.baseball games , etc....a d some time they post pictures of these "work retreats" in the mountains so they can , you know, spread the world of god....

Probably not a bad gig, working every sundry for a few hours would suck but infinite time off through the week would be pretty awesome...


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## EM_PS (Oct 8, 2013)

No tithe, cuz wiccans don't roll like that


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## mudpuppy (Oct 8, 2013)

My uncle was a minister, and while it's true there is a big amount of flexibility with the job, there's other stuff they do besides officiating services. Between weekly bible school, visiting sick church members in the hospital, funerals, weddings, wedding counseling, dealing with the petty church crap, etc, etc, etc, it's a full time job if not more. Heck, just writing his weekly sermon usually took 2-4 hours. Not to mention they work pretty much all the big holidays.


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## csb (Oct 8, 2013)

I'd also like to throw out there that my Facebook doesn't represent the things I spend the largest percentage of time doing. I post about fun stuff.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 8, 2013)

EM_PS said:


> No tithe, cuz wiccans don't roll like that


i went to a wiccan wedding ceremony a year ago.


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## Road Guy (Oct 8, 2013)

Yes but if you posted 3-4 hunting trips a week and daily bike rides (at hours when most of us we're working) things start to ad up...

But they are at those new churches that have a rock band and lots of "stuff"... I'm sure the old guys at regular churches give it an honest work week...


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## MA_PE (Oct 8, 2013)

envirotex said:


> MA_PE said:
> 
> 
> > EC based on your post I don't think you "tithe" at all
> ...


not sure where you're going with that. My point is that the definition of "tithe" is to promise 10% of your income to an organization. Not just to give. Alternately, "giving all you gots" ain't tithing either. that's simply "giving all you got".


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2013)

When I was nine or ten, I wanted to be a pastor because I wouldn't miss all the cool morning game shows. I'd only miss Bullwinkle.

Plus, I thought getting paid to work two hours a week was cool, and they GAVE you a place to live.


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## goodal (Oct 8, 2013)

No matter the flexibility or the perks, I couldn't do it because of having to deal with everyones dirty laundry. I go to church with good people, but even they have skeletons I don't want to know about. Not to mention having to preach 3 times a week. I am an assistant teenage sunday school teacher which means I teach about once a month and that's more than I want some times.


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## Exception Collection (Oct 8, 2013)

badal said:


> No matter the flexibility or the perks, I couldn't do it because of having to deal with everyones dirty laundry. I go to church with good people, but even they have skeletons I don't want to know about. Not to mention having to preach 3 times a week. I am an assistant teenage sunday school teacher which means I teach about once a month and that's more than I want some times.




I agree. Pastorship was one of three careers I was "encouraged" to follow (the other two being counselor and teacher) in HS; once I figured out that I really didn't want to listen to other people's problems and not be able to do much about them, I decided not to enter any of those fields.


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## ventilator (Oct 8, 2013)

Growing up my parents always gave 10% each week. They were successful enough that they could do this without hurting any other aspect of the finances and we went to a very small church so every dollar counted. I haven't gone to church much recently in the past 5 years, basically got burn out from the constant church going from childhood. When we do go the church we like just passes a collection plate at the end of the service and simply asks you to give if you feel like it and whatever you can which I think is the best approach. Typically I would throw $20-40 in the plate, prob average out to about 100 a month.

I know personally with all of the expenses we have with kids and the way everything seems to be costing more and more each week I couldn't give 10% of my gross or net so I give what I feel comfortable giving when I do go.


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## envirotex (Oct 8, 2013)

MA_PE said:


> not sure where you're going with that. My point is that the definition of "tithe" is to promise 10% of your income to an organization. Not just to give. Alternately, "giving all you gots" ain't tithing either. that's simply "giving all you got".




My point is that the new testament suggests that giving should be something other than presecribed and ritualized giving...


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## Road Guy (Oct 8, 2013)

I know this thread rambled but thanks for all your answers(seriously ).


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## mudpuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

I will add, when you do give, either write it down or get a receipt... I know the church my parents used to go to they gave out little envelopes to put your money in with your name and the church then kept tabs and would give you an annual receipt for your taxes. If you deduct more than like $250 I think you have to show receipts or a cancelled check or something.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 9, 2013)

I thought it was $250 or more in a single check you have to have a receipt. Monthly amounts of less than $250 that add up to more than $250 were ok and didn't need receipts...at least thats what i remember from filing taxes this yr


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## csb (Oct 9, 2013)

What I recall from filing taxes this year is that I can't itemize anymore, AFTER I entered all the deductions.


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## ktulu (Oct 9, 2013)

We go to church occasionally, but we do not tithe. Now when our son does stuff with the youth, we pay his share.

But I should probably give the church some money. It is a southern Baptist church, and they let (and still do) this full-blooded Methodist in the doors!


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## mudpuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

csb said:


> What I recall from filing taxes this year is that I can't itemize anymore, AFTER I entered all the deductions.




A downside to not having a state income tax. Still, I'd rather not have a state income tax. Or a city income tax.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Oct 9, 2013)

^^^ But then how do you subsidize the locals?


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## snickerd3 (Oct 9, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > What I recall from filing taxes this year is that I can't itemize anymore, AFTER I entered all the deductions.
> ...


what's your sales tax % and property tax bill like


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## Exception Collection (Oct 9, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > What I recall from filing taxes this year is that I can't itemize anymore, AFTER I entered all the deductions.
> ...


You can deduct sales taxes instead if there isn't an income tax.


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## csb (Oct 9, 2013)

Our total sales tax is 6% (4%state, 2%local) and our property tax percentage is 9.5% assessment ratio to 76 mills (so tax on our $188,000 house is $1357.36).

And deducting sales tax was included in last year's fun-o-rama of entering mortgage, charity, child care, taxes...


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## mudpuppy (Oct 9, 2013)

Sales tax tends to be a lot less overall than income tax.

I'm paying 4.35% state income tax, 1% local income tax, 6% sales tax and 43 mills on 50% of assessed value (to convert to a standard value, csb is paying 7.2 mills on 100% assessed value while I'm paying 21.5).

csb, I think it's safe to say you live in a low-tax state, so therefore you don't have as many federal tax deductions.


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## Boomer01 PE (Oct 9, 2013)

I used to go to a Baptist church where the pastor constantly talked about tithing and giving more. It wore me out! We have since found a non-denominational church where tithing still goes on, but is rarely if ever talked about. I feel like this is the right approach for churches and will lead to more members and therefore more tithes. Our church is pretty large and has opened up other locations and additional service times. We do not tithe 10% and typically give $10-20 each time we go.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 10, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> csb, I think it's safe to say you live in a low-tax state, so therefore you don't have as many federal tax deductions.




SC's the same way, and our mortgage interest is low. Itemized is maybe 50% of the standard deduction.


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## rktman (Oct 10, 2013)

Boomer01 PE said:


> I used to go to a Baptist church where the pastor constantly talked about tithing and giving more. It wore me out! We have since found a non-denominational church where tithing still goes on, but is rarely if ever talked about. I feel like this is the right approach for churches and will lead to more members and therefore more tithes. Our church is pretty large and has opened up other locations and additional service times. We do not tithe 10% and typically give $10-20 each time we go.


Please do not lump all Baptist in this category. I'm a Christian and I attend a Baptist Church. I've been in both scenarios you mention (both in Baptist churches). A good pastor will realize that tithing is a relationship matter between man and God. He will teach what the Word says on the subject and then moves on.

An inexperienced or cranky old pastor will (perhaps unintentionally) guilt people into giving. This does not work, especially long term.

The Bible says to give a tenth of your increase to your local church. If you are not a member of the church, you need to examine why you're not a member before you worry about giving to it.

If you can't or don't feel good about it, pray about what you can do but don't give out of guilt.

I believe the Biblical verses on tithing (when read in context), say the blessing comes from cheerful giving.


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## csb (Oct 10, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> mudpuppy said:
> 
> 
> > csb, I think it's safe to say you live in a low-tax state, so therefore you don't have as many federal tax deductions.
> ...




Aw yeah, bitches!

(Sorry, it just felt like I needed to yell that for some reason.)


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## goodal (Oct 10, 2013)

rktman said:


> Boomer01 PE said:
> 
> 
> > I used to go to a Baptist church where the pastor constantly talked about tithing and giving more. It wore me out! We have since found a non-denominational church where tithing still goes on, but is rarely if ever talked about. I feel like this is the right approach for churches and will lead to more members and therefore more tithes. Our church is pretty large and has opened up other locations and additional service times. We do not tithe 10% and typically give $10-20 each time we go.
> ...


well put.


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## csb (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm Catholic; we do everything out of guilt.


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## engineergurl (Oct 10, 2013)

because if you don't, you'll go to hell


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## snickerd3 (Oct 10, 2013)

csb said:


> I'm Catholic; we do everything out of guilt.


I'm just starting to get over the whole catholic guilt thing. The RCCs here are much more conservative than the church I grew up in.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Oct 10, 2013)

I'm pretty sure when it comes to Catholicism, everyone ends up in hell...


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## engineergurl (Oct 10, 2013)

I get the Catholic guilt revamped every time I talk to my mom on Monday and she asks how the service was at the Baptist church I go to...


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## snickerd3 (Oct 10, 2013)

Dexman PE said:


> I'm pretty sure when it comes to Catholicism, everyone ends up in hell...


jsut the opposite...as long you confess and say you are sorry everyone can go to heaven


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## Dexman PE PMP (Oct 10, 2013)

snickerd3 said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure when it comes to Catholicism, everyone ends up in hell...
> ...


Confessions can lead to jail time...


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## engineergurl (Oct 10, 2013)

nope, the dude in the closet is sworn to not tell on you...


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## Sapper PE LS (Oct 10, 2013)

engineergurl said:


> nope, the dude in the closet is sworn to not tell on you...


I thought there was a clause about some things like if a person were to confess about murdering somebody or raping somebody then they have to tell the police... is that not true?


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## engineergurl (Oct 10, 2013)

I think it's their duty to try to convince the person to turn themselves in, but I thought they were still sworn to not tell...


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## EM_PS (Oct 10, 2013)

snickerd3 said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm pretty sure when it comes to Catholicism, everyone ends up in hell...
> ...




fixt


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## Flyer_PE (Oct 10, 2013)

csb said:


> I'm Catholic; we do everything out of guilt.


Eastern Orthodox are masters of guilt too. I'm too shameless to convert.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 11, 2013)

engineergurl said:


> I think it's their duty to try to convince the person to turn themselves in, but I thought they were still sworn to not tell...




Yeah...two can keep a secret if one is dead.


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## csb (Oct 11, 2013)

They cannot and will not tell. They will suggest highly that the person turn themselves in, but a priest can't go to the authorities with info gained in reconciliation.


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## Sapper PE LS (Oct 11, 2013)

I have to admit, I find that disturbing. Maybe their soul is fine, but justice has not been served. Or is part of the penance that they turn themselves in and until they do they aren't truly sorry? I still think that is crap.


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## mudpuppy (Oct 11, 2013)

To me, it sounds like the priest becomes an accessory to the crime. So is there some special exception for clergy in this case, or is the priest just willing to go to prison to protect the confessee?


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 11, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> To me, it sounds like the priest becomes an accessory to the crime. So is there some special exception for clergy in this case, or is the priest just willing to go to prison to protect the confessee?




I think it is hearsay.


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## csb (Oct 11, 2013)

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0059.html

You're assuming that a large number of murderers are confessing and just going about their business. I have no idea what the numbers of that would be, but it seems like the percentages would be low:

Total number of murderers who aren't caught

Total number of Catholic murderers/those using confession as a means of forgiveness

Total number of Catholic murderers who confess the crime as a sin, but don't confess it as a crime

No doubt there is a number of crimes told in the confessional booth outside of murder. It's been a long time since I've received a "4 Hail Marys" kind of penance...they are much more soul searching and character building. I imagine a person confessing to rape is steered towards more than just absolution.


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## MA_PE (Oct 11, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> mudpuppy said:
> 
> 
> > To me, it sounds like the priest becomes an accessory to the crime. So is there some special exception for clergy in this case, or is the priest just willing to go to prison to protect the confessee?
> ...


fixt


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## Ble_PE (Oct 11, 2013)

^You should know all about that considering where you live...


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## knight1fox3 (Oct 11, 2013)

^ LOL


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## Exception Collection (Oct 12, 2013)

csb said:


> They cannot and will not tell. They will suggest highly that the person turn themselves in, but a priest can't go to the authorities with info gained in reconciliation.




Yup. The authorities also can't listen in to confessions done in courthouses and other routinely monitored locations; it's considered privileged, and yes it's on a different level than standard therapists etc due to the religious nature (1st Amendment; if the religion says it's protected, it's protected). And I think it's good this way; better that they talk about it rather than letting it fester, and maybe the Priest will convince them to give themselves up.


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## MA_PE (Oct 12, 2013)

Ble_PE said:


> ^You should know all about that considering where you live...


Bingo. and 12 years of catholic schools add to my credentials.


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## mudpuppy (Oct 12, 2013)

Exception Collection said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > They cannot and will not tell. They will suggest highly that the person turn themselves in, but a priest can't go to the authorities with info gained in reconciliation.
> ...




Sounds like a terrible idea to me. As a lay person, I'm expected to report a crime if someone tells me they committed it if I want to avoid being an accessory after the fact. What is it about a clergy person that makes them above the law? Sounds like a process ripe for abuse, and obviously churches aren't immune from abusing power. Heck I could go get ordained online in about 5 minutes, does that mean I could then go conspire with others to commit crimes and all those communications are privileged?


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## Sapper PE LS (Oct 12, 2013)

Basically Mudpuppy, yes, it does. You will be called a heretic by some, but legally, you will be totally fine.


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## EM_PS (Oct 12, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> Exception Collection said:
> 
> 
> > csb said:
> ...




^Lol I think you're reading waay too much into this:

FWIW, from wiki, priest-penitent privilege:

The First Amendment is largely cited as the jurisprudential basis. The earliest and most influential case acknowledging the priest–penitent privilege was _People v. Phillips_, where the Court of General Sessions of the City of New York refused to compel a priest to testify. The Court opined:

It is essential to the free exercise of a religion, that its ordinances should be administered—that its ceremonies as well as its essentials should be protected. Secrecy is of the essence of penance. The sinner will not confess, nor will the priest receive his confession, if the veil of secrecy is removed: To decide that the minister shall promulgate what he receives in confession, is to declare that there shall be no penance...


A few years after Phillips was decided, _People v. Smith_ distinguished the case on the grounds that the defendant had approached the minister as a "friend or adviser," not in his capacity as a professional or spiritual advisor. As with most privileges, a debate still exists about the circumstances under which the priest-penitent privilege applies. The capacity in which the clergyman is acting at the time of the communication is relevant in many jurisdictions.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 14, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> As a lay person, I'm expected to report a crime if someone tells me they committed it if I want to avoid being an accessory after the fact.




I think just knowing about it and not saying anything to the authorities is called misprisionment of a felony, or something like that. Accessory after the fact means you did something to cover up the crime, like dispose of evidence.


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## MetsFan (Jun 15, 2015)

I saw this article on my FB feed and it reminded me of this thread:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/14/us/sunday-stickup/


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jun 15, 2015)

Go ahead and tithe a little more... oking:


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## csb (Jun 16, 2015)

For the record, they lost the Crystal Cathedral in bankruptcy.


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## YMZ PE (Jun 16, 2015)

I read the Vatican snapped it up for a song (hymn?). Good on them.


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## csb (Jun 16, 2015)

We've got good investments. They are renovating the whole thing. It's a gigantic building.

I'm leaning more towards tax everyone. Tax it all.


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## goodal (Jun 18, 2015)

"The power to tax is the power to destroy."

- Somebody Smart

This is in the works and will be very bad for everyone if the government can tax churches. The church and Press are supposed to be untouchable by the government. They have the Press in their back pocket and already have too much power over the church (political speech not allowed due to tax free status).


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## mudpuppy (Jun 18, 2015)

Seriously? Churches can raise billions of dollars and build megachurches but shouldn't have to contribute to the infrastructure that support them? Taxing churches the same as any other business is fair and doesn't give the government any more power over them than any other business.

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with taxes. The only reason churches are not taxed is because they ostensibly are nonprofit.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 18, 2015)

mudpuppy said:


> Seriously? Churches can raise billions of dollars and build megachurches but shouldn't have to contribute to the infrastructure that support them? Taxing churches the same as any other business is fair and doesn't give the government any more power over them than any other business.
> 
> Separation of church and state has nothing to do with taxes. The only reason churches are not taxed is because they ostensibly are nonprofit.


MP said exactly what I was thinking. :thumbs:


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Jun 18, 2015)

I would venture to guess there are a few churches that don't make billions.


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## Lumber Jim (Jun 18, 2015)

I'd also call government a religion for some...


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## mudpuppy (Jun 18, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> I would venture to guess there are a few churches that don't make billions.




I agree, there are plenty, and I don't begrudge the nonprofit work of churches being untaxed. But there are plenty of churches that use their nonprofit status to accumulate wealth, build ostentatious buildings that burden the public infrastructure, and try to influence politics. These activities shouldn't be untaxed just because they happen to also be a church.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Jun 18, 2015)

Can't argue with that.


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## Lumber Jim (Jun 18, 2015)

I take goodal's point to be in the form of a question: Where does it end once it starts and who is entitled to decide?

Seems to me that tithing isn't just for us church folks anymore...

http://atheists.org/legal/current/IRS

"Please consider making a tax-deductible gift..."

In regard to benefiting the public, I'm just not getting the "love thy neighbor" vibe if it's to be solved in court.

Now, I'm convinced that MP was speaking to what is right and decent but the question remains: Who decides when when they are supposed to be separate?

My vote is for Dleg...


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## goodal (Jun 19, 2015)

Mudpuppy, if I have the power to make you pay me money, do I not have some level of control over you? Maybe a whole lot of control? If the government can silence the Press and the Church, who is left to stop them? The government must not be left in charge of monitoring and limiting itself, because they will not do it. History teaches that over and over. Yes, just like everything else, there are a few examples of ministries that abuse this, but by and large most churches do not have million dollar budgets and do a great deal of good with what little they do have. My church probably takes in a little less than a million a year, but we have a school, prison ministries, missionary projects, ect that we fund and help alot of people. We will be able to do less when the government starts taking "their fair share". When the government takes yours and my money to give to other people, they are saying that they know better how to help people than we do. The epiclly (sp?) failed war on poverty and drugs proves that they do not. Let me keep my money and help who I wish how I wish with it because I guarantee you I can do better with it than they can and waste/squander less.


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## matt267 PE (Jun 19, 2015)

goodal said:


> The government must not be left in charge of monitoring and limiting itself, because they will not do it.




I certainly agree with this. But, IMHO, it's not the church's job to control the government. It's our job, and yes, we need the media's help in doing that.



goodal said:


> Let me keep my money and help who I wish how I wish with it because I guarantee you I can do better with it than they can and waste/squander less.




+ 1E6


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 19, 2015)

Can you give me one example of a church regulating the government? Sure, some politicians are religious, but that is not likely to change if churches lose their tax-exempt status. I don't make the leap between taxation of churches and government gaining more power.


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## matt267 PE (Jun 19, 2015)

wilheld,

I am NOT choosing sides in this argument. But, here is a local example of the church trying to control politics.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/11/22/kennedy.abortion/index.html



> Rhode Island's top Roman Catholic leader has asked Rep. Patrick Kennedy to stop taking Communion over his support for abortion rights, the diocese said Sunday.
> 
> In a statement issued Sunday, Providence Bishop Thomas Tobin said he told Kennedy in February 2007 that it would be "inappropriate" for him to continue receiving the fundamental Catholic sacrament, "and I now ask respectfully that you refrain from doing so."


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## goodal (Jun 19, 2015)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Can you give me one example of a church regulating the government? Sure, some politicians are religious, but that is not likely to change if churches lose their tax-exempt status. I don't make the leap between taxation of churches and government gaining more power.




I didn't mean to say it regulated government, just that it is outside of government and should be able to criticize or say whatever it wants about it (aside from inciting revolution). As far as your last question, i don't see how you CAN'T see that. If I can make you pay me money or fine you when you don't or fine you when you say something I don't like, then I own you. Same thing with taxation.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 19, 2015)

goodal said:


> If I can make you pay me money or fine you when you don't or fine you when you say something I don't like, then I own you. Same thing with taxation.




Using that same argument, every single person in a church is owned/controlled by the government, so how much of a leap is it if the church itself is also taxed?


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## Lumber Jim (Jun 19, 2015)

If a person is Catholic and doesn't support the sanctity of life then he/she shouldn't be receiving communion. Being a public figure has no bearing.

By the way, Kennedy made it public through our wonderful media...

How did you turn that into the church controlling politics?


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## engineergurl (Jun 19, 2015)

Lumber Jim said:


> If a person is Catholic and doesn't support the sanctity of life then he/she shouldn't be receiving communion. Being a public figure has no bearing.
> 
> By the way, Kennedy made it public through our wonderful media...
> 
> OHow did you turn that into the church controlling politics?


Sometimes when I want to respond, I just have to wait I'd Jim to say what I am thinking.


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## mudpuppy (Jun 19, 2015)

If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.


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## matt267 PE (Jun 19, 2015)

Lumber Jim said:


> How did you turn that into the church controlling politics?




Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't, I don't know. Over the years, Tobin has proven to be very outspoken in the media concerning political positions/policies/elections etc. Whether I agree with him or not, it always catches my attention and sometimes it feels like he is lobbying.

And I'm likely going to step in a pile of shit here, but:

http://www.irs.gov/uac/Charities,-Churches-and-Politics



> Currently, the law prohibits political campaign activity by charities and churches by defining a 501©(3) organization as one *"which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distributing of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office."*




And then this: http://ripr.org/post/bishop-tobin-blasts-raimondo-advises-catholics-how-vote

To be honest, I don't know how to feel about his outspokenness and flirting with the "line." I was raised Roman Catholic and many of my personal views are in alignment with the Church's. I just wonder how I would feel if an influential leader from some other religion, that didn't align with my views/beliefs, started getting involved in politics and campaigns.


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## goodal (Jun 19, 2015)

mudpuppy said:


> If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.




I think those are bad examples. All of those services are paid for by the citizens that go to that church, which already pay taxes. What the church runs on is a % of those same citizens income. The church doesn't generate income, it operates off of donations. So wouldn't taxing a church's donations be double taxation? Keep in mind I'm an engineer and not an accountant.

Oh and not to mention that MOST churches entire purpose for existing is to give back to the community. So in a very real sense they are "paying their fair share" and more.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Jun 19, 2015)

Can we not agree that most churches are not the same as the mega churches that do actually generate income?


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## goodal (Jun 19, 2015)

Agreed. When I think of church I think of my small 160-180 person congregation in the backwoods of KY. I don't think of The Crystal Cathedral or Joel Osteen in Houston. Works that large are bound to have waste/corruption issues simply due to their size that God is not pleased with.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 19, 2015)

goodal said:


> God is not pleased with.


Sorry, I had to....


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## mudpuppy (Jun 19, 2015)

goodal said:


> mudpuppy said:
> 
> 
> > If a church catches on fire, the fire dept is going to show up. If someone breaks into the church and steals from it, the police are going to show up. If there's a pothole in the street at the church, the city/county will fill it in. But the church generally doesn't pay a dime for any of this. The only point I'm trying to make is the church should pay their fair share of this stuff.
> ...




No, these are perfect examples. Who says the members of that church are taxpayers in the community where the church is located? When I was a kid we went to a church the next town over. Now I don't go to church at all, why should my taxes subsidize police, fire and infrastructure for a church?


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 19, 2015)

I admit that 90+% of churches don't need to pay any taxes. They operate on donations to keep the doors open, and any "profit" goes towards charity and community support efforts. The problem is the 10ish% of mega churches that bring in millions/billions of dollars and spend most of that money in recruiting, retaining, and growing the church...not improving the community.

I think churches that make a significant profit should be taxed. Where that line is becomes a gray area that no politician in their right mind would touch because mega churches vote in numbers and as a hive mind. You piss them off, you lose your election. Honest question, since I have no idea, do pastors or other support staff at large churches that earn a salary have to pay taxes on their income? Maybe that is the line....if you have x number of employees, you get taxed at the corporate rate for a company with that many employees.


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## YMZ PE (Jun 19, 2015)

mudpuppy said:


> goodal said:
> 
> 
> > mudpuppy said:
> ...




Would you argue the same for nonreligious nonprofit organizations that happen to occupy a physical building, like Habitat for Humanity or Goodwill?


----------



## engineergurl (Jun 19, 2015)

mudpuppy said:


> goodal said:
> 
> 
> > mudpuppy said:
> ...




Do you frequent homeless shelters, food pantries, child advocacy centers? Why should you pay for them to have the same services?

The church I attend (on occasion and infrequently)

-operates a summer day camp so hard working people don't have to pay for daycare during the months schools out

-runs a food pantry for the local community (regardless of membership)

-assists with utility bills for citizens of the local community (regardless of membership)

-participates in large functions with other churches in the larger community to organize volunteers for endeavors that are too large for a small population to take on

-provides scholarships

-provides assistance for community members (regardless of membership) doing their taxes, financial planning etc etc etc

I've seen them assist with burial costs, medical bills that weren't covered by insurance and the list could go on and on.

Our fire department here is volunteer with just a few paid administrative positions. Quite a few of the church members are volunteers at the various stations. Public transportation is very limited, and actually only services part of the county. The infrastructure out here, well we don't have sewer or water, so that leaves roads I guess? Well, the state hasn't paved our road in three years and left it gravel without pavement markings since they milled it up for that long (they do add gravel each spring to the patches that were milled up and fill up the larger pot holes left from the plow trucks) oh and the sheriff's department and the 25 or so EMS employees in the county (not all full time mind you)... but I assume that we would have those services regardless if the churches exist or not, since the citizens here do pay taxes.

When people think "church" I don't think they think of the small country communities. I'm grateful that I have the knowledge that if taxes have to get paid, the members will step up to meet the burden so that the programs won't have to get cut because I think our community rely's on it's churches heavily for what larger cities and towns provide for their citizens.


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## mudpuppy (Jun 19, 2015)

As I stated before, I don't have any issues with the nonprofit activities of a church being tax-free. However, many church buildings are not used primarily for these types of nonprofit activities, and I think shouldn't be exempt from taxes.


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## engineergurl (Jun 19, 2015)

mudpuppy said:


> As I stated before, I don't have any issues with the nonprofit activities of a church being tax-free. However, many church buildings are not used primarily for these types of nonprofit activities, and I think shouldn't be exempt from taxes.






such as? and perhaps you wish to edit your statement to "in my experience" because I doubt you have the statistics of what activities go on in the majority of churches through out the country... unless you are aware of a study that has been done and can provide the statistics


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## goodal (Jun 22, 2015)

Mudpuppy, I think I can infer from your posts that your issue is with mega churches and the fact that they do so many "non-church" things without directly paying taxes. I guess I agree to some extent with you that when a church becomes a glorified country club, it has stepped beyond the boundaries of what a tax exempt entity should be doing. I can answer the question about church staff paying taxes. They do BUT they can also opt out of Social Security (like my pastor has) due to a religious exemption or something. I'm not sure on the details of that, but I know for a fact that they all pay their fair share like the rest of us.


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## Road Guy (Jun 22, 2015)

saying all churches are like the money grubbing mega churches is like saying all gay men are also child molesters....


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## csb (Jun 22, 2015)

I like that I found something else that mudpuppy subsidizes.

#thanksmp


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## mudpuppy (Jun 22, 2015)

That's ok, RG subsidizes me riding my bike on the road so we'll call it even.


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## Road Guy (Jun 23, 2015)

I drive the wife's hybrid one day a week to pay less gas tax and therefore pay less into the bike / ped fund...


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## Lumber Jim (Jun 23, 2015)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Honest question, since I have no idea, do pastors or other support staff at large churches that earn a salary have to pay taxes on their income?




The answer to this question is YES, at least for small to medium sized churches. Most are paid at a rate below full time (20 - 35 hours) or are stipend, have minimal benefits, crappy hours (evenings and weekends) and donate many more hours than required.

I'm married to a "support staff member" at a "medium" sized church (large enough to utilize support staff)


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## Road Guy (Jun 23, 2015)

I have some friends who worked their way up from student minster to "top dog preacher" and it didn't really sound all that appealing, pretty low pay, lots of BS, lots of turnover, and oh yeah, churches do fire people also. its really weird listening to some of their stories.. might even make a good tv show..


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## engineergurl (Jun 24, 2015)

Road Guy said:


> I have some friends who worked their way up from student minster to "top dog preacher" and it didn't really sound all that appealing, pretty low pay, lots of BS, lots of turnover, and oh yeah, churches do fire people also. its really weird listening to some of their stories.. might even make a good tv show..






I have actually seen some pretty bad drama play out when a Pastor's views didn't align with some influencial people... it can get nasty and break up a whole congregation


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (Jun 28, 2015)

I grew up Catholic but am now Episcopal. While they do pass around a collection plate, they don't hound you for $. I'm still getting the envelopes from the CC even though we called and told them we are no longer Catholic.

At my current church we do something called Sunday's of service where, instead of holding service, everyone picks a project and goes out into the community to work. Everything from feeding the homeless (thank God no arrests yet for doing so), helping build for habitat for humanity, and helping senior citizens with tasks, among other things. There is also a Saturday's of service which is similar. And several other projects throughout the year, such as taking kids from the local boys/girls havens to go shopping for clothes for school (paid for by the church and people in the church). From the first time I attended, I knew I loved this church. They don't just preach what to do....they do it.


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## Lumber Jim (Jun 30, 2015)




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## Lumber Jim (Jun 30, 2015)

mudpuppy said:


> As I stated before, I don't have any issues with the nonprofit activities of a church being tax-free. However, many church buildings are not used primarily for these types of nonprofit activities, and I think shouldn't be exempt from taxes.


To beat a dead horse here, if you're not happy enough with just taxing the individuals that attend tax free churches how would you feel about subsidizing churches that would qualify for "welfare" from the government in order to stay afloat? Currently they just close or consolidate with other area churches.


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## P-E (Jun 30, 2015)

No.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 23, 2015)

Televangelist Smite!



> The IRS Is Allegedly Being Pressured Into Taxing Televangelists Thanks To John Oliver


http://uproxx.com/tv/2015/08/last-week-tonight-irs-televangelists/


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