# CFLs



## Capt Worley PE (Mar 17, 2011)

I used to be a huge proponent of CFLs, but now I despise the things. They don't put out enough light, they take too long to reach operating temperature, the light they produces reduces drastically over time, and they don't last as long as we were told. I'm replacing them with the old incandescents, except in a few always on locations.

I guess in the future, I'll be forced to buy foreign bulbs.

Haven't experienced the LEDs yet; I hope they don't turn out to be a huge disappointment in the long run, like CFLs did.


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## humner (Mar 17, 2011)

We keep buying the incandescents. At least where and when we can find them. I don't like that CFLs from cradle to grave are not very "green", especially how I see people throw them away now.


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## cableguy (Mar 17, 2011)

Hazardous materials, expensive, depend on components that don't take too kindly to heat (like big capacitors inside), cheap ones give off really crappy light.

My work bought me a desk lamp (because they're too cheap to fix the ballasts in the office lighting in our cube farm - we're moving buildings in the not too distant future, so the wheels are gonna fall off this one...). Anyhow, the lamp came with a cheap CFL. The light it emitted was uncomfortably white. It was like strobe light white. I found it hard to read under. It was (I could tell) a cheap Chinese bulb, probably the cheapest bulb available.

So I wandered the building and found some GE bulbs. They give off a much softer, much better color light... but I'm sure they're more expensive. The color is much closer to incandescent. Anyhow, the lamp tipped over one day, and the tube fell out of the base of the bulb. Inside were some electronics, along with at least one big electrolytic capacitor.

Being an electronics nerd like I am, I've seen my share of blowed up electrolytic caps. These days you're lucky to get a couple years out of cheap electronics before cap tops start popping. Putting caps like this in the base of a bulb where heat is going to build up is no bueno. CFL bulbs are just entirely wasteful compared to incandescents. Too many parts to fail, more expensive, toxic mercury inside... just not worth it IMO.

That said, I'll be trying LED's whenever I see the price point come to the tempting price point, but I just want to be sure that the color and dispersion pattern are right first. Lots of variables with LEDs.


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## OSUguy98 (Mar 17, 2011)

We bought a few LED bulbs the other day to put outside in our porch lights... the CFLs we had take a day and a half to get bright when it's cold... the LEDs are instant... and they put out about the same amount of light (compared to the CFLs we had)... but they still only put out 450 lumens, where an incandescent is usually at least twice that... I'm hoping the LED bulbs end up getting cheaper over time (we bought one at $10... and went to get another and it was $18)... we tried them inside and were happy with the color and the amount of light (at least for a living room side table light)


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 17, 2011)

In my line of work, I have seen more than on failed CFL bulb, and the most common mode of failure (as mentioned by cableguy, is the electrolytic capacitors). Not only does heat make them fail, but so does vibration. Many CFLs come with a warning not to install them in ceiling fan fixtures due to the vibration.

As to the longevity issue, both CFLs and LED bulbs will fall shorter than expected in this category due to the way they were tested. Sure, you can get 10,000 hours out of an LED bulb when the heat is properly dissipated and it isn't cycled on and off. But during real-world testing environments, they do not last nearly long enough to justify their initial cost difference.

Incandescents are terribly inefficient, but they more than make up for it in low initial cost.


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## FusionWhite (Mar 17, 2011)

I think the CFL is a piss poor replacement for the NFL. I mean come on...football...IN CANADA?!? Whos heard of such a thing. I really hope the NFL gets its shit together.

Thats what we're talking about? Right?


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## navyasw02 (Mar 17, 2011)

If it wasnt for the chemicals, I'd be fine with them. I dont really care that it takes an extra 30 seconds to warm up or if the color temperature is off by a few kelvins. I just want to be able to see and have cheaper electric bills. That said, I'll replace them with LEDs when they burn out if the price warrants it.


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## snickerd3 (Mar 17, 2011)

HATE HATE HATE THEM!!!!!!

First, it flourenscent light. Since having minisnick I have become very sensitivie to flourescent lighting. VERY BAD

Wrong color, takes forever to turn on.

They don't last anywhere near as long as they say. I bought the kind labeled specifically for ceiling fan and 2 of the 4 blew within a month. The others lasted less than a year. The ones in the non-moving ceiling light are still ok, but not really a fan of the color.

the disposal issue, yes stores take them back, but we are over an hour away from a store that takes them back for proper disposal. Even though the amount of mercury is small it is still mercury in landfills which even just one getting into the sample taken by the landfill for complaince can cause huge problems for the landfill.

We will be being incandencent from now on for as long as we can, which should be awhile because most of our lights have the tiny sockets which require the fancy bulbs and those are exempt from the rule.


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## Dleg (Mar 18, 2011)

I think CFLs are just fine. Gotta make sure you get the "warm" color temperature, though, to replicate the incandescent effect.

You guys just wait till you're paying ~$0.40 per kWh like we are. You'll do anything to save power. We were burning ~2400 kWh before, when the price was $0.12 or so. We've got it down to ~1100 kWh per month now through replacing all our lights with CFLs, timing our airconditioning use, replacing aircons as they fail with new 13 SEER units, and (the bad part) getting rid of our water heater.

I haven't seen a decent LED bulb yet, though. Our Ace Hardware stores stocked some decorative bulbs in the 20 watt range, and I picked up a couple and they were hopelessly dim. I haven't seen anything brighter for sale around here yet, but it seems to be the best solution once brighter bulbs become more commonly available.


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## chaosiscash (Mar 18, 2011)

I've done a little research on the ESL bulbs that are in development (www.vu1corporation.com), but I'm not sure about the pricing, and they have been very slow to market. I'd like to pick one up if the A bulb ever comes out, just to see how they work.


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## Road Guy (Mar 18, 2011)

you know it seems like the ones made 4-5 years ago are much better, brighter then the ones today, maybe there more mass developed / used and thats effecting the quality.. I had some in the garage for 8+ years that are still there, and the ones I buy these days are not lasting a year..

I put dimmer switches in the basement (about 14 can lights) and although they do sell CFL lights for dimmers / they dont work near as well as regular lights... those damn dimmable CFL lights are about $20 / EA!!!!


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## Supe (Mar 18, 2011)

I hate the size of the CFL's. The ones Duke sent me seem brighter than the incandescents at a lower wattage, but, the stupid things stick out way past the light fixtures. The light color was fine (very white), but the damn thing was so harsh to look at I had to take them down. I'll find somewhere to put them, but only because they were free.


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## Dleg (Mar 18, 2011)

^You may have a point. Almost all the CFLs in my house are ~5-6 years old now... I've only recently had to replace a few with the new types. I hope they aren't as bad as you say....

What the hell is an ESL bulb?


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## cableguy (Mar 18, 2011)

I would bet that now (as opposed to 8 years ago) they are trying harder to bring costs down, in order to compete with the cheap Chinese bulbs - so that has caused a drop in quality.

8 years ago, CFLs weren't as mainstream, so they inherently had a higher price. Now, CFL's are darn near "the law", so the price HAS to come down. You can drop price a lot easier by dropping quality versus actual improvements in processes and efficiency.

And how many people really keep track of "when" they replaced that bulb on the porch anyway? Did I replace it last year, or 3 years ago? And what brand did I buy, or was it just a 6-pack of something on sale at Home Depot? Even then, a manufacturer can change the name/packaging of the bulb (rebranding) without changing anything else. I have a feeling it's all a shell game.


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## roadwreck (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm perfectly happy with the ones I have. I don't put them everywhere, but I have them in a few lights in the house that are on the most. I just had to replace the first CFL bulb I ever installed. That one had been in use since 2002. I have some in the outdoor lights at my front door which are on a timer and come on for 4 hours every single night. They've been out there for 5 years with no issues.

If you get the "warm" colored ones the light they give off really isn't much different than an incandescent bulb IMO. They don't get as bright as some incandescent bulb, but I'm not using them as a spot light, just general purpose lighting.

I don't use them in any lamp that you can see the bulb, although I heard they are starting to make CFL's with a cover bulb, which just serves to give the appearance of an incandescent bulb.


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## chaosiscash (Mar 18, 2011)

Dleg said:


> What the hell is an ESL bulb?


From Vu1's website (granted its marketing stuff, but there is more in depth info on the website):

Electron Stimulated Luminescence™ (ESL) Lighting Technology is an entirely new, energy efficient lighting technology. It uses accelerated electrons to stimulate phosphor to create light, making the surface of the bulb “glow”. ESL technology creates the same light quality as an incandescent but is up to 70% more energy efficient, lasting up to 5 times longer than incandescent and contributing to the reduction of greenhouse gas emissions. There is no use of the neurotoxin Mercury (Hg) in the lighting process.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 18, 2011)

OK, I'm one of those rare anal people that DOES track when I replace the CFLs, since they cost so much.

My first one, always on in the basement, cost 20 bucks, was two peice, and lasted five years. The one I replaced it with lasted three. The current one has been down there almost a year.

The ones that get cut on and off daily, last less than a year, but start to dim appreciably after 3-6 months.


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## roadwreck (Mar 18, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> OK, I'm one of those rare anal people that DOES track when I replace the CFLs, since they cost so much.
> My first one, always on in the basement, cost 20 bucks, was two peice, and lasted five years. The one I replaced it with lasted three. The current one has been down there almost a year.
> 
> The ones that get cut on and off daily, last less than a year, but start to dim appreciably after 3-6 months.


really? I've never noticed any problems with any of mine.

Sure it's not a wiring problem that is shortening the life of the bulbs? I've only had one CFL quit working, and it was 8 years old when it died.


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## snickerd3 (Mar 18, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I'm one of those rare anal people that DOES track when I replace the CFLs, since they cost so much.
> ...


I've had the same issues at two different houses...one almost new and the other not so new.


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## snickerd3 (Mar 18, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> I'm perfectly happy with the ones I have. I don't put them everywhere, but I have them in a few lights in the house that are on the most. I just had to replace the first CFL bulb I ever installed. That one had been in use since 2002. I have some in the outdoor lights at my front door which are on a timer and come on for 4 hours every single night. They've been out there for 5 years with no issues. If you get the "warm" colored ones the light they give off really isn't much different than an incandescent bulb IMO. They don't get as bright as some incandescent bulb, but I'm not using them as a spot light, just general purpose lighting.
> 
> I don't use them in any lamp that you can see the bulb, although I heard they are starting to make CFL's with a cover bulb, which just serves to give the appearance of an incandescent bulb.


Having a color choice in town is at the mercy of the walmart purchasing agent. Haven't seen a Warm CFL at the store ever. Huge difference too.  We bought the previous bunch (warmish) at Menards while we visiting somewhere away from home. We needed bulbs badly as 3 of 4 had burned out. The walmart didn't have any small based regular bulbs (frosted/white) except for the CFL. I had bought a package and OMG the light was brutal and way too different from the rest of the bulbs in the room.


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## Supe (Mar 18, 2011)

Comically enough, the CFL in the men's restroom just died on my way out. It's one of the proximity sensor on/off deals.


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## csb (Mar 18, 2011)

Dleg doesn't have a hot water heater? At all?

We have a a mix of incandescent and CFL's in our house. I find the light to be fine when it's under a lampshade and our newer bulbs are almost instant on. We even have a three-way bulb (which didn't seem dirty until I typed it). I think the only pain is going to be making sure when they die that we take it back to Lowe's. I'm guessing, like most of the batteries in our house, that my husband will throw them in the trash. That's just the way it goes.


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## kevo_55 (Mar 18, 2011)

^^ Solar hot water heater?

You see these things all over asia. It's basically an aluminum drum on the roof of the building. The sun just heats it up since it's so shiny.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 18, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > OK, I'm one of those rare anal people that DOES track when I replace the CFLs, since they cost so much.
> ...


I doubt it. i have heard a lot of similar complaints.

I've gone through at least two five packs of CFLs over the past couple/three years. I'm pretty much done with them, except the always on basement lights where light quality isn't an issue.


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## navyasw02 (Mar 18, 2011)

csb said:


> Dleg doesn't have a hot water heater? At all?


I wish I could get rid of my hot water heater. I'd be all for getting one of those electric "on demand" type heaters they have all over europe.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 18, 2011)

navyasw02 said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > Dleg doesn't have a hot water heater? At all?
> ...


Those are godawful expensive and require yearly maintenance. No way to make a ROI with those things.

I saw a guy who made a solar hot water heater with a fish tank water pump and refrigerator coll. Claims water came out at 140 degrees on a sunny day.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 18, 2011)

A standard 60 watt incandescent is replaced by a 13 watt CFL. I would love for LEDs to make it because they only consume 1 watt per driver (most of them, anyway). The problem comes in with light distribution. Fluorescent tubes and incandescent filaments inherently direct light in every direction, so it is easy to put in reflectors and diffusers to get the light where you want it. LEDs, on the other hand, are highly directional, so it's a serious pain in the ass to diffuse or get good light distribution out of a 1 watt LED. Most of the current A19 (medium base bulbs) LEDs make up for this problem by using a shitload of LEDs facing in different directions. That makes them less efficient than a CFL due to the number of LEDs required to get the same distribution as a 13 watt CFL. If somebody can come up with a really good way to diffuse LED light, it would be a huge improvement over CFLs and incandescents.


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## csb (Mar 18, 2011)

But everything is better in Europe!

We get a lot of sun where we live. It would be like having a giant sun shower on top of the house.


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## navyasw02 (Mar 18, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> > csb said:
> ...


Really? I would assume it'd be cheaper since you're only getting hot water on demand instead of constantly heating a big tub of water.

I saw a bunch of solar hot water heaters in hawaii.


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## MadDawg (Mar 18, 2011)

A lot of my neighbors have CFLs and the inside of their houses look blue at night-- so so awful. All we need to do is build more nuclear plants and keep using good old incandescents...


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 18, 2011)

navyasw02 said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > navyasw02 said:
> ...


Yeah, I want to say it was on the instructables.com website(which is pretty freakin' cool, btw), but I'm too lazy to look right now. I imagine googling solar water heater refrigerater colis would yeild a design....


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 21, 2011)

Just in case you want to start hoarding the incandescents....

http://www.amazon.com/SYLVANIA-12709-100-W...4142&amp;sr=1-3

I thought it was a decent price. I did note that the supply went down by two cases in an hour...


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 21, 2011)

I noticed earlier this year the California is banning 100 W incandescents. My first question was "how will Easy Bake Ovens work in CA." It was fresh in my mind because my niece got an Easy Bake for Christmas, and my BIL had to go hunting down a 100 W light bulb for it.


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## snickerd3 (Mar 21, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I noticed earlier this year the California is banning 100 W incandescents. My first question was "how will Easy Bake Ovens work in CA." It was fresh in my mind because my niece got an Easy Bake for Christmas, and my BIL had to go hunting down a 100 W light bulb for it.


he will ahve to buy the new redesigned Easy bake oven. They redesigned not to use a light bulb since they wont be available.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 21, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I noticed earlier this year the California is banning 100 W incandescents. My first question was "how will Easy Bake Ovens work in CA." It was fresh in my mind because my niece got an Easy Bake for Christmas, and my BIL had to go hunting down a 100 W light bulb for it.


I'm surprised Kali hasn't banned the Easy Bake Oven for reinforcing gender stereotypes.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 21, 2011)

snick_PE said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > I noticed earlier this year the California is banning 100 W incandescents. My first question was "how will Easy Bake Ovens work in CA." It was fresh in my mind because my niece got an Easy Bake for Christmas, and my BIL had to go hunting down a 100 W light bulb for it.
> ...


Do they have an actual heating element in them?


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## snickerd3 (Mar 21, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> snick_PE said:
> 
> 
> > wilheldp_PE said:
> ...


light-bulb-free heating element that’s more akin to a conventional oven is the only description I seen so far. They aren't out in stores until fall


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## Dleg (Mar 23, 2011)

csb said:


> Dleg doesn't have a hot water heater? At all?


'tis true.... But you should realize our "cold" water isn't that cold, although there are times when I just can't take it. Mornings aren't bad though - when your body is all cooled down from sleeping and the airconditioner, the cold water feels relatively... less cold. On a sunny day it's almost warm, anyway - water lines around here are generally not very deep (12 inches or less)

I've looked into solar heaters, but a few years ago when I could still afford home improvements, the only solar heaters on island were from China and used glass heating tubes. That's gotta be the stupidest choice of materials in a typhoon zone, so I didn't bite. I hear there are other models in island now, so I need to check again now that I am making more money.

The other option, which is widely used here, is the big black plastic water tank. The problem with a big tank like that is that my roof can't take the load, so it would have to go at ground level, which means I would have to install a pump and pressure tank. Those types of systems are very common here because of the water problems (most places did not have 24-hour water until just recently). They work OK and have some advantages - like being able to augment with rain water (helps mitigate the salty and overchlorinated utility water), but it adds more electrical cost.



wilheldp_PE said:


> I noticed earlier this year the California is banning 100 W incandescents. My first question was "how will Easy Bake Ovens work in CA." It was fresh in my mind because my niece got an Easy Bake for Christmas, and my BIL had to go hunting down a 100 W light bulb for it.


Good point! I was always disappointed in the Easy Bake for that reason - took to damn long to cook anything. They should put in a real heating coil and make the thing out of metal, basically a toaster oven for little kids. That would be pretty cool.


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## Dleg (Mar 23, 2011)

Oh - I forgot my point in opening this thread. Have you guys seen the new LED streetlights? They're in the process of retrofitting all our streetlights here as part of a stimulus (ARRA) project. They finished the main road near my house just last week, and I must say I am very impressed - these lights provide far better coverage and illumination that the usual streetlights (sodium?) that we have here (we still have the blue/white ones out here mostly), supposedly at 25% the power consumption.

If they can do that with streetlights, they should be able to do something like that with household LEDs. I met a woman from NREL out here two years ago who went on and on about LEDs being the wave of the future, but that there were still some issues in making a truly competitive light bulb replacement (this was after I bashed CFLs to her - despite what I said here, I agree on the whole life-cycle toxicity thing. I don't like them for that reason, but I use them because they save me money)


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## humner (Mar 23, 2011)

We use LEDs for our kitchen countertop lighting. They work fantastic. Next year when our house is finished we are planning on raising chickens, how will I be able to heat the poor hen house if I can't get any more incandecents?  I know that there are space heaters out there, but the nostalgia of having a 100 watt bulb burn 24/7 in the winter just gets to me.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 23, 2011)

Dleg said:


> Have you guys seen the new LED streetlights?


Yeah. When I worked for an A/E firm, we had lighting vendors in all the time talking about LED streetlights. The have little modules that incorporate a 1 watt LED driver and a highly researched reflector. Most of the streetlights have about 13 of those modules, and they are really bright (especially when viewed in a darkened conference room).


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## willsee (Mar 23, 2011)

We just designed a high school here with LED 2x4's and LED parking lot lights.

Guess the first thing that got VE'd.


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## Guest (Mar 23, 2011)

Did anyone see Dale Bryk on Stephen Colbert espousing the benefits of CFLs?!

Dale Bryk Supports CFLs

JR


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## Flyer_PE (Mar 23, 2011)

LED taxi/landing lights are starting to come on the market. They're still a little expensive but I may try one out the next time I burn out a light since they're supposed to last a LOT longer than the 40 or so hours I get out of the stock incandescent.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 16, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> OK, I'm one of those rare anal people that DOES track when I replace the CFLs, since they cost so much.
> 
> My first one, always on in the basement, cost 20 bucks, was two peice, and lasted five years. The one I replaced it with lasted three.* The current one has been down there almost a year.*
> 
> The ones that get cut on and off daily, last less than a year, but start to dim appreciably after 3-6 months.


It died earlier this month.

From my experience, despite what they claim, CFLs will last less than 3 years, even when constantly on.

My stash of 100W incandescents is running low.


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## Master slacker (May 16, 2013)

Don't worry about your "science" or your so-called calculations. You're saving the world, man! Don't worry about that mercury, it'll work itself out.


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## csb (May 16, 2013)

I never asked this, but why is the light always on?


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## wilheldp_PE (May 16, 2013)

He's running an illicit Motel 6.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 17, 2013)

csb said:


> I never asked this, but why is the light always on?




The so-and-so who wired the house put the basement light on the same circuit as an outlet in the living room and some outside motion detectors. So if you cut the basement light off, you lose those.

Also, there are no windows, so it would be pitch black in there without the lights. It is worth the elctricity to save stumbling around with a flashlight. So we have two CFLs down there 24/7.


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## csb (May 17, 2013)

Ah! Makes sense.

My parents have recently installed a bunch of those motion activated, battery operated LED lights on their stairs to the basement. They are obsessed with energy savings. This way, they don't have to turn on the hall light to get to the rooms in the basement. The stairs have also always been a little dark.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 17, 2013)

The motion detectors don't workk anymore (I hate the dang things anyway), but we do use that outlet. Eventually, I could see a switch to LED for those basement bulbs, but that's a long way off, methinks.


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## wilheldp_PE (May 17, 2013)

You could get a screw in adapter with a wireless switch for the basement. The light would theoretically be switched twice, but it should work.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 17, 2013)

^Hmmm...might look into that? Any links?


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## mudpuppy (May 17, 2013)

Good idea, wil. . .I use X10 on several lights in my house but they are the plug-in type modules. I forgot about the screw-in kind.


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## wilheldp_PE (May 17, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> ^Hmmm...might look into that? Any links?


This was the first thing that the Google search turned up...

http://www.amazon.com/Heath-Zenith-BL-6138-LA-Solutions-Wireless/dp/B000INZBTE


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## Capt Worley PE (May 20, 2013)

Thanks!


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## Supe (May 20, 2013)

So that doesn't have to be hardwired, just 9v battery for the switch? If so, that's pretty tits, and I need to order a few that have the outlet that plugs in. I've been wanting to backlight the tops of the kitchen cabinets and have an outlet there (from the microwave), but no way of wiring an on/off switch without a lot of drywall damage. I can use this for some movie theater sconces on the projector wall, too!


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 30, 2013)

The latest GE energy saver 100W equivalent CFLs seem to put out truly equivalent light to a 100W incandescent, start up a lot quicker, and seem to be 1 1/2 spirals shorter than the previous CFLs.

With greater performance, I've finally been able to put them in areas where truly equivalent 100W performance was needed, and the smaller size may fit some fixtures that were too small for the older CFLs. Which is good, because my stash of pre-ban 100W incandescents is dwindling.


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## Boomer01 PE (Jul 30, 2013)

The newer CFL's definitely work better than the older ones. The light output is much better and there isn't the warming up time.

I'm thinking about going all LED in the next house we build (around 3 years) if the prices get a little better.


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## envirotex (Jul 30, 2013)

I'm going to start hoarding incandescent-bulb Christmas lights...


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 30, 2013)

envirotex said:


> I'm going to start hoarding incandescent-bulb Christmas lights...




We'll set aside an area in the fire lab for the remains of your tree and presents, then. We get at least 10 Christmas light fires in here every year...in fact, the other EE in the lab is looking at one right now.


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## csb (Jul 30, 2013)

I had to explain to my child last Christmas that we can't string as many incandescent lights together as we can LED lights. This was after he shorted a line by plugging in the third string. Explaining power consumption to a seven-year-old is cumbersome, but worthwhile.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 30, 2013)

Turn off everything in the house, show her the electric meter. Turn everything on (including oven, dryer, etc.) then show it to her again. Explain that the faster the meter spins, the fewer toys you can afford.


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## Dleg (Jul 30, 2013)

Cool to see this thread revived.

I am actually thinking about reversing my no-hot-water policy at home. I attended a talk by Gil Masters (Stanford prof. and author of several textbooks in enviro eng.) and he turned me on to heat pump water heaters:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=find_a_product.showProductGroup&amp;pgw_code=WHH

These have been around for a long time, but not in this latest and more efficient form.

A cool side benefit (for me) is that it puts out cool air, which would cool my kitchen (water heater is in a utility room just off the kitchen in our house).


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## envirotex (Jul 30, 2013)

^^We toured a house last fall that had a geothermal heat pump for AC and solar panels for hot water from their rain collection system...it was around 90 degrees that day very cool. The heat pump was set up as an auxiliary to the main AC, though.


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## Exception Collection (Jul 30, 2013)

Dleg said:


> Cool to see this thread revived.
> 
> I am actually thinking about reversing my no-hot-water policy at home. I attended a talk by Gil Masters (Stanford prof. and author of several textbooks in enviro eng.) and he turned me on to heat pump water heaters:
> 
> ...




I had a client (that went to school to become an ME) that intended to put one of those in to heat a spa, but had to back off the plan when he realized he had to use explosives to dig down far enough into the rock his house was going to sit on. (He abandoned the entire pool idea.)

I've also done a few solar water heater designs. Rather, some designs for attaching them to the roof. When I have a house built to my specifications (I'm saving currently, estimated construction start is 2020), I plan to have a geothermal heat pump, solar panels, rain collection cisterns so I can reuse it, and high R-value walls/roofs (50+).

Right now, though, I'm an energy hog. Except for my car, which is still getting 33 mpg 113,000 miles after I bought it. I'm hoping it lasts long enough for Electric or Hydrogen cars to be reasonably useful (that is, until I can drive to/from my hometown with one 15 minute stop between, with the ability to refill in almost any town in the US).


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 31, 2013)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Turn off everything in the house, show her the electric meter. Turn everything on (including oven, dryer, etc.) then show it to her again. Explain that the faster the meter spins, the fewer toys you can afford.




Spinning meters are a thing of the past in my neck of the woods.

I think I'm going to try and switch all Christmas lights to LED this year. We absolutely love lights, so the power bill goes up a bit. Plus the LEDs seem to be a good bit more robust.

I wish the solar LEDs would have worked out better. They just aren't bright enough for the outside tree.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 31, 2013)

My meter has a digital read-out, but it still has the spinning disk.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 31, 2013)

Mine's just a black box with a digital readout that flashes up from time to time. It is one of those 'read by remote sensing unit' meters.

Coincidentally, my usage took a large jump when it was installed. many in the area noticed the same thing. I was told SCE&amp;Greed claimed the old meters spun too slowly and didn't reflect true usage.


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## csb (Jul 31, 2013)

^That's what we have too.


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## mudpuppy (Jul 31, 2013)

^it's just another way for the NSA to keep tabs on you.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 31, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> ^it's just another way for the NSA to keep tabs on you.




You joke, but the local sheriff's departments and local municipal PDs regularly reviews 'unusual' power usages. They've caught a few grow houses that way.


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## knight1fox3 (Jul 31, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Plus the LEDs seem to be a good bit more robust.
> 
> I wish the solar LEDs would have worked out better. They just aren't bright enough for the outside tree.


Tis what I also thought and what I switched to exclusively last year. I believe I bought whatever standard variety Home Depot/Menards offered. They were giving out discount coupons for bringing in old light strings to recycle. I thought, LEDs won't burn out and should be better-suited to withstand the WI elements. :BS: Different technology but had the same old problems. One damn LED would go out and half the string of lights would then go out too. So I'd have to sort through and try to figure out which one went bad (in a string of 100). This happened many more times so the 2 spares provided did not suffice. Replacement LEDs (in a Xmas light form factor mind you) weren't readily available from what I could see in the stores near me. So it was either, buy a new string to have "spares", or buy LEDs in bulk online to replace the dead ones. I chose the bulk route which actually was pretty reasonable. But it was a pain in the arse to have to trim the leads on each LED I had to replace. From my experiences, it seemed like the voltage was possibly too high for the LEDs. Because I quickly learned how to find the dead one in a string by the leads that were *blackened* and would just fall off when taken out of the socket. It was strange and even got me thinking about safety factors and such. I'm sure the energy savings were substantial switching from incandescent to LED, but the headaches were the same if not worse for me. At least that was my experience.

If anyone knows of a better "brand" of LED lights, I'd be all ears. Because honestly, when they do work, they look pretty slick. And there are some strings on our patio I could leave up year-round since they are "cool white" and light up the patio nicely. But I got real sick of hunting down and replacing dead LEDs. :brickwall:


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## Dleg (Aug 1, 2013)

^I used some LED lights in decorations a few years back, and they were kind of nice, but they gave off a 60 Hz flicker that drove me kind of nuts. I hope this has changed with the mroe recent ones.

But I think any kind of mass-produced Christmas lights will always be junk. Made in China, baby!



Exception Collection said:


> I had a client (that went to school to become an ME) that intended to put one of those in to heat a spa, but had to back off the plan when he realized he had to use explosives to dig down far enough into the rock his house was going to sit on. (He abandoned the entire pool idea.)


I wasn't talking about geothermal heat pumpz - just heat pump water heaters (drawing heat from the ambient air). Just plug it in and go, but probably more suitable for warm climates with warmer water, like mine.


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## csb (Aug 1, 2013)

We've been using the same roll of LED lights from KMart for 3-4 years now with no problems at all. Target ones are on their second year with no problems.


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## envirotex (Aug 1, 2013)

Dleg said:


> ^I used some LED lights in decorations a few years back, and they were kind of nice, but they gave off a 60 Hz flicker that drove me kind of nuts. I hope this has changed with the mroe recent ones.


^^^This.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 1, 2013)

Yeah, there are folks with a set of lights that give me vertigo when I drive by them because of the flicker.

Certain V-dub tailights irritate the snot out of me too, with their fast flicker.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 1, 2013)

We didn't realize there was a difference between the "white" LED's and the "white" incancescents until we put them up last year for Xmas. I had to completely rearrange my lighting plan last year so it didn't look completely piece-mealed together.


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## knight1fox3 (Aug 1, 2013)

csb said:


> We've been using the same roll of LED lights from KMart for 3-4 years now with no problems at all. Target ones are on their second year with no problems.


Outside or inside?


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## csb (Aug 1, 2013)

K-Mart ones are outside. They have been exposed to subzero all three winters and we get winds in excess of 50mph during winter. Our snow is pretty devoid of moisture, though.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 2, 2013)

LEDs seem to do OK outside in our hood, but it rarely gets near freezing at Christmas.


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## knight1fox3 (Aug 2, 2013)

csb said:


> K-Mart ones are outside. They have been exposed to subzero all three winters and we get winds in excess of 50mph during winter. Our snow is pretty devoid of moisture, though.


Any idea on the brand? I might try finding them online and test a set out before engaging in this venture yet again.


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## csb (Aug 2, 2013)

90% sure they are Trim A Home.

http://www.mygofer.com/trim-a-home-reg-50ct-c6-led-christmas-light/p-009W056518911004P


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 17, 2013)

Interesting chart:

http://www.efi.org/factoids/lumens.html


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