# Dont end up like this guy..



## Dleg

Check out this month's NCEES "Licensure Exchange" newsletter.

Scroll down to page 5, and you'll find an entire article devoted to the smack-down by [email protected] in April for the idiot who posted an exam question. The article goes on to actually mention a lot more about the content of the question than I ever would have thought appropriate.

The true identity of "Tim" is also identified, and coincidentally there is a picture of him on the preceding page.

UPDATE: link in case they archive that issue

http://www.ncees.org/About_NCEES/Licensure...07&amp;month=06

UPDATE 2 (new link):  http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/LEx-June-07-for-Web.pdf


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## DVINNY

WOW.

I guess that answers those questions as to what happened. Just kinda sucks that they have our web address wrong. Maybe we should register engineeringboards.com too.


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## NCcarguy

It does suck they got the name wrong, someone (meaning not me) should send [email protected] a notice, and see if they can correct it in the next edition....more free press!


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## Mike in Gastonia

> QUOTE (Dleg @ Jun 27 2007, 08:30 PM)
> 
> The article goes on to actually mention a lot more about the content of the question than I ever would have thought appropriate.




I would guess they are probably not going to use the question again anyway, so why not?


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## Guest

All I gotta say is .... :respect: :respect: :respect: :bananalama:

:multiplespotting: :multiplespotting:

JR


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## Guest

^^^^ 

JR


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## DVINNY

> QUOTE (Mike in Gastonia @ Jun 27 2007, 09:15 PM)
> 
> I would guess they are probably not going to use the question again anyway, so why not?



I guess that's why NCEES has to watch that kind of thing, if you had 80 of those guys, it would cancel out a whole exam, and NCEES would run out of questions for the future.

I hate seeing that happen to the guy, even if he did question my testicular fortitude, but he did blatently say he didn't care, and he posted it like 3 or 4 times.



> QUOTE (SapperPE @ Jun 27 2007, 11:33 PM)
> 
> We need to put that portion of the PDF file in the "Rules of the Board" as a deterent for future candidates.



Great idea, but NCEES is the last place we need to risk copyright problems. Maybe we'll just add the link and hope they keep it up.



> QUOTE (jregieng @ Jun 27 2007, 11:59 PM)
> 
> ^^^^


JR

LOVING THE KNARLY MAN!!!!!!!


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## Dark Knight

Is that how it happened? I thought you guys were the ones that let Tim know about the post. Anyways someone was nailed.

What a dumb mistake, but he/she has no one to blame but himself/herself.


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## Road Guy

Well I am still surprised that I haven’t gotten any hate email from the guy to be honest.

Looks like Tim is getting promoted from one of the articles (Congrats!)

At least they didn’t site.. engineertrades.com ….. I guess we should go register www.engineeringboards.com and have it re-direct here for a few months..


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## Hill William

And all you guys thought he was from WV. Dipshit was from Ohio. :screwloose: :lmao:


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## Mike in Gastonia

> QUOTE (DIAZWV @ Jun 28 2007, 07:24 AM)
> 
> And all you guys thought he was from WV. Dipshit was from Ohio.


Yeah, but wasn't his handle wv...something? He probably just went to school at WVU.....


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## Road Guy

Well I checked into buying www.engineeringboards.com and some company from china already owns it …..


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## MA_PE

Very cool. Definitely gives the board both press and credibility.

I'd suggest that someone PM [email protected] through this board and make him aware that the board URL is incorrect.

Note: It wouldn't be fair to deluge him with PM's, so I'll leave it to the Admins to act.

It's great when you can work with the NCEES and know that you can be heard.

I also applaud that he posted as [email protected] No covert lurking on thier part, he was straight up front about who he was. Great job all around.


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## kevo_55

Hey, any publicity is good publicity.

Way to go EB!!!


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## VA_Env_Engr

Here's another thought. When a new member sign up on this board, we make him read and accept a few major rules of the board before signing him/her on. Kinda like the credit card or other companies do with legal stuff.


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## DVINNY

> QUOTE (Mike in Gastonia @ Jun 28 2007, 07:52 AM) He probably just went to school at WVU.....


That may explain it.


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## DVINNY

> QUOTE (MA_PE @ Jun 28 2007, 08:43 AM)I also applaud that he posted as [email protected] No covert lurking on thier part, he was straight up front about who he was. Great job all around.


He was on it pretty fast, so I assumed he must have been reading as a guest or so, NCEES may be on everyday all the time for all we know.

I saw the post almost immediately, so I PM'd the guy who wrote it, and by the time I was done writing that PM, [email protected] had already PM'd me, and by the time I read his, I noticed the guy posted the same thing in about 4 different places.


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## Road Guy

> QUOTE (VA_Env_Engr @ Jun 28 2007, 09:08 AM) Here's another thought. When a new member sign up on this board, we make him read and accept a few major rules of the board before signing him/her on. Kinda like the credit card or other companies do with legal stuff.



That’s a good idea, I added something brief to the registration part that should essentially spell it out for people.


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## DVINNY

Go back and read the PDF on NCEES site. It now reads EngineerBoards.com correctly.

Those guys/gals are alright in my opinion.


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## Guest

:multiplespotting: :multiplespotting:

JR


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## Road Guy

Thanks for updating the link.

Its still unfortunate that this occurred, I wish the board was not being recognized for something so negative.

Just an FYI, there will be a lot heavier moderation after the next exam, super cool secret mods just to help out in case another unfortunate event happens again.


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## DVINNY

^^^ You saying I wasn't 'heavy' enough? LOL


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## Flyer_PE

> QUOTE (Road Guy @ Jun 28 2007, 09:53 AM)
> 
> Its still unfortunate that this occurred, I wish the board was not being recognized for something so negative.



I'm not so sure the board's recognition is so negative. They did point out that the post was only there for 10 or 15 minutes. That's a pretty quick reaction considering that running this board is not your primary occupation. The rules are posted here, they were knowingly broken, the offender paid a price. I would only see it as negative publicity if you had withheld the identity of the nitwit who posted the exam question.

Just my





Jim


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## Undertaker

That is serious shit there. A guy probably ruined his life or at least, will have to wait a few years for a promo if he was counting on getting the license. If DVINNY warned him and he still posted the same thing again he deserved it. That shows two things in the way I see it. NCEES really has a vigilant eye on this board and that you guys are serious. That was a quick reaction. I was good that an admin was on the board at that point because who knows what would happened should the post stay a long time. Someone mention about a heavy watch after next test. I suggest a 24 hour watch for a couple of days and I am serious. You never know who might try that stunt again and is your good name on the line. I don't mean to be an ass kisser but I believe in recognition when a great job is done. Great job adms.


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## Road Guy

well they would most likely just issue a court order to get the information if we put up a fight (not that I dont think we did the right thing in the first place)


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## Capt Worley PE

I think it was very professionally handled. I was quite impressed by the owners/mods/admins/ quick actions.

Well done.


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## megoo98

interesting that the state board could prevent him from ever sitting for the exam again. i ddin't know that happened!


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## SuperAlpha

general info:

The perp's actions were unethical, of course. Violation of the "agreement" however, is a civil matter. A snippet is not copyright infringement.

But the "gotcha" is that the state board should drop him and fine him according to its policies for unethical behavior. This may include permanent or temporary suspension of his ability to re-apply for PE.


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## Undertaker

^^^^^That is true. I bet he is very sorry about what he did. The point is he deserves whatever they throw at him. He was warned at the test and when he posted here somobody told him. He ignored it and not only posted once, he posted again at other thread, if I understood what really happened. Bottom line: He got what he derserves. He has two options now. Move on or cry his whole life. Its up to him.


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## DVINNY

^^^^^^^


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## jeb6294

> QUOTE (Road Guy @ Jun 26 2007, 10:02 AM)
> 
> Well I checked into buying www.engineeringboards.com and some company from china already owns it …..


Did they update the newsletter or am I just special? They had the name in there correctly when I read it.

Also, I don't think their description of the board was bad at all...I'd say it was quite accurate:

The post appeared on www.engineerboards.

com, a Web site created by engineers interested

in sharing advice—as well as some war

stories—with others preparing for the FE and

PE exams.


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## Dark Knight

> QUOTE (jeb6294 @ Jul 5 2007, 02:46 PM)
> 
> Did they update the newsletter or am I just special? They had the name in there correctly when I read it.
> 
> Also, I don't think their description of the board was bad at all...I'd say it was quite accurate:
> 
> The post appeared on www.engineerboards.
> 
> com, a Web site created by engineers interested
> 
> in sharing adviceas well as some war
> 
> storieswith others preparing for the FE and
> 
> PE exams.


They did fix it. RG scared them. He threatened to send F'tard's lawyers if they did not fix the mistake.


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## EdinNO

Nice! Good to see that they have us in their newsletter. Sorry to see that a guy got burned for it, but like all said, its his fault.

I'm especially glad / hope that this evidence that the NCEES is serious will disuade people from talking about the questions.

Ed


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## Dleg

Well, unless a link to that article is posted permanently in the more public forums (esp. the PE Exam forum - maybe under the pinned Forum Rules topic?), I doubt anyone new will ever see it. The only reason I did was because I was in a severe bout of procrastination - I highly doubt I would have read the June 2007 NCEES "Licensure Review" otherwise. This thread will eventually become buried in the past.


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## Ange_NYPE

I just read the NCEES article and remember the "Question" very well, it was one that contributed to my "P" grade (Civil/Geotech).

In my opinion, it would easily qualify as one of the simplest questions ever asked on a PE exam, and it is amazing to think that this guy may have scarred his professional career for a very long time over something so basic.

Ange_NYPE


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## DVINNY

> QUOTE (Ange_NYPE @ Jul 6 2007, 02:00 AM)
> 
> I just read the NCEES article and remember the "Question" very well, it was one that contributed to my "P" grade (Civil/Geotech).
> 
> In my opinion, it would easily qualify as one of the simplest questions ever asked on a PE exam, and it is amazing to think that this guy may have scarred his professional career for a very long time over something so basic.
> 
> Ange_NYPE


Simple for you. I had absolutely no idea what that answer was.


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## Ange_NYPE

Without being too specific, even if you did not know the answer during the exam, any strength of materials text book would have an explanation, one that you could look up on your own and avoid any exposure on a public forum.

Ange_NYPE


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## DVINNY

You're right. I just looked it up on page XX of my Cheng book. How funny. I actually think I got it right.


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## maryannette

Integrity is a word that gets thrown around a lot, but I think you've actually got it here!

I'll try not to multiple post this one, but sometimes my trigger finger is itchy.


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## roadwreck

bump just to help dissuade anyone considering posting something about the exam.


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## RIP - VTEnviro

I was on their website updating my NCEES Record stuff when I found this article. It's a good read.



> News
> Release: 7-9-2009
> 
> Contact: Doug McGuirt, Corporate Communications Editor
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Puerto Rican court awards damages to NCEES in exam theft case
> 
> The U.S. District Court in Puerto Rico has ruled in favor of NCEES in a civil suit involving damages exceeding $1 million. The judgment resulted from the case of a civil engineering licensure candidate who was found with recording and transmitting equipment during the October 2006 administration of the Principles and Practice of Engineering exam in the city of Mayaguez.
> 
> The candidate, Bethzaida Cameron Ortiz, was discovered during the afternoon session of the administration after a proctor noticed her unusual behavior. The chief proctor at the exam site confronted Cameron, 44, and discovered that the defendant was concealing a host of recording and transmitting devices within her jacket and handbag, including a wireless audio/video transmitter, a small video camera, a receiver, a pocket video recorder, a device used to connect video cameras to a television or computer, and battery packs.
> 
> Working with materials provided by law enforcement, NCEES determined that Cameron had recorded the Civil PE exam and established that Cameron had performed a similar operation with the FE exam, which records show she attempted in October 2005 at the same location. As a result of these exam breaches, NCEES had to remove all compromised material from its exam item banks, resulting in the damages awarded in the civil suit. In estimating damages, NCEES takes into account the time, travel, and work hours required of NCEES staff, psychometric consultants, and subject-matter experts who are involved with the development and review of exam content.
> 
> "Like any organization that develops standardized tests, NCEES's most valuable asset is its intellectual property. When someone steals exam content, the effects are the same for us as they would be for a retail store that has its assets stolen," said NCEES Executive Director Jerry Carter.
> 
> NCEES develops and enforces stringent policies to protect exam content, including limiting the materials candidates are allowed to bring to the exam site. Before attempting an NCEES exam, each candidate is required to sign a statement affirming that he or she will not copy or reveal any exam material.
> 
> Prior to the judgment in the civil suit, Cameron had been convicted of fraud in criminal court as a result of the incident. She is prohibited from attempting any NCEES exam in the future.
> 
> "The fact that we are a nonprofit that assists licensing boards means that this event in some way has affected everyone in the engineering and surveying professions and, ultimately, the public," said Carter. "We are pleased that this judgment was reached and we are confident this will serve as a deterrent for anyone who might consider stealing exam content in the future."
> 
> About NCEES
> 
> NCEES is a national nonprofit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all U.S. states, the District of Columbia, Guam, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands. An accredited standards developer with the American National Standards Institute, NCEES develops, scores, and administers the examinations used for engineering and surveying licensure throughout the United States. NCEES also provides services facilitating professional mobility for licensed engineers and surveyors. Its headquarters is located in Clemson, S.C.


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## FLBuff PE

This exam cycle's bump to dissuade posters from violating the agreement.


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## smithrj40

Anybody know where I can find a copy of that article, the post is from 2007 and it looks like that link has expired, I did a quick google search and couldn't find it anywhere either.


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## kevo_55

It looks like it is gone like the sands of time...........

It was a pretty good read.


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## FLBuff PE

> QUOTE (smithrj40 @ Dec 14 2009, 03:57 PM)
> 
> Anybody know where I can find a copy of that article, the post is from 2007 and it looks like that link has expired, I did a quick google search and couldn't find it anywhere either.


To summarize, DON'T ASK QUESTIONS THAT WERE ON THE EXAM! There was a user of this site that posted about a specific question on the exam, basically stating the question word for word. The user posted it in several threads. This site is actively monitored by NCEES, and I, for one, would not want to put passing the exam in jeopardy. The user got in MAJOR trouble with NCEES. I don't remember the specifics of the case.


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## RIP - VTEnviro

It was available recently, I wonder if the link went dead when they rebooted their site.

Basically what happened was some dope posted nearly verbatim a question off the civil exam, and posted it into several forums. I think he even said something like "I know I shouldn't be doing this but I just need to know the answer..."

[email protected], as well as other concerned members, notified us. The post was removed, and I believe IP and registration info of the dumbass in question were passed onto to NCEES.

The person's results were nullified, and there may have been other sanctions.


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## TranspoVA

http://www.dpor.virginia.gov/dporweb/2009%20Dimensions.pdf

Check out this newsletter...similar situation this year with the ARE Exam...plus they busted someone recording the FE and PE exam with a video camera


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## DVINNY

> QUOTE (VTEnviro @ Dec 15 2009, 11:33 AM)
> 
> It was available recently, I wonder if the link went dead when they rebooted their site.




Basically what happened was some dope posted nearly verbatim a question off the civil exam, and posted it into several forums. I think he even said something like "I know I shouldn't be doing this but I just need to know the answer..."

[email protected], as well as other concerned members, notified us. The post was removed, and I believe IP and registration info of the dumbass in question were passed onto to NCEES.

The person's results were nullified, and there may have been other sanctions.

You forgot about how he got on here and said I had no balls since I removed his posts.


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## MWC PE

What I don't get is why the NCEES recycles questions. The questions themselves on the test are not that tricky or unusual. As many times as some people take the test it would seem they possibly have seen a majority of the questions. Would it not be easier to keep the test secure to just write a new test each time? I took a class in college where the teacher used the same test over and over again. He graded it, showed to the students, then took it back up. One semester nearly the entire class scored a hundred. It is impossible to keep an exam secure if you keep using the same questions.


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## benbo

> QUOTE (mwchandler21 @ Apr 22 2010, 09:41 PM)
> 
> What I don't get is why the NCEES recycles questions. The questions themselves on the test are not that tricky or unusual. As many times as some people take the test it would seem they possibly have seen a majority of the questions. Would it not be easier to keep the test secure to just write a new test each time? I took a class in college where the teacher used the same test over and over again. He graded it, showed to the students, then took it back up. One semester nearly the entire class scored a hundred. It is impossible to keep an exam secure if you keep using the same questions.



Good Lord, it's enough for them to get the tests graded as it is. Developing questions would take even more valuable time, plus they have to recruit volunteers to write the questions and test them out. I believe they have a large pool of questions so the likelihood somebody will take the test enough times to see a majority of them is pretty slim.

Plus, maybe people could just follow the rules.


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## klk

I also remember reading in the NCEES article that not only did they nullify his results, the state was going to prevent him from retaking the exam in the future.


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## Vishal

> QUOTE (mwchandler21 @ Apr 24 2010, 06:41 PM)
> 
> What I don't get is why the NCEES recycles questions. The questions themselves on the test are not that tricky or unusual. As many times as some people take the test it would seem they possibly have seen a majority of the questions. Would it not be easier to keep the test secure to just write a new test each time? I took a class in college where the teacher used the same test over and over again. He graded it, showed to the students, then took it back up. One semester nearly the entire class scored a hundred. It is impossible to keep an exam secure if you keep using the same questions.




NCEES has several questions graded as a "standard". These questions are used for evaluating the pool of candidates and setting the passing score. I believe that I read this somewhere in the NCEES scoring method explanation. This is why it is necessary that all the questions remain confidential. Also, NCEES considers these questions as intellectual property since a lot of time, effort, and money are spent to make the pool of questions that can be put on the test. I guess that this is similar to piracy or sharing the copyrighted material. NCEES reserves the right to the questions which in my opinion is only fair.


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## DVINNY

I agree with Vishal, the pool of "equating" questions to evaluate the examinees is very important to the scoring process. These questions NEED to remain the same and cannot be comprimised.


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## RIP - VTEnviro

Benbo and DV and Vishal are right. I don't know what the process for developing questions is, but there's a lot of R&amp;D that has to be done before using it on an exam.

There's a science behind it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychometrics


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## rzannino76

One of my ex-coworker went through the same thing as what is talked here. But I know, that guy eventually got his P.E. He did said that his scores were invalidated in that exam due to his some crazy mistake. who knows!!

Lesson is to just be patient &amp; keep mouth shut after the exams.


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## Dleg

I also read somewhere how each test question costs NCEES something like $100k. I could be wrong on the figure, but it was a high figure.

I make certification exams as part of my job, for something much simpler than this. It's tough to come up with even 10 new questions every six months, for a 25 question exam. I can't imagine how difficult it would be to come up with 80 or 100 new questions, and have each question validated through the process NCEES uses.


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## wilheldp_PE

My dad used to write questions for the industrial exam. They require that you provide the question, solution, all work for the solution shown, and other possible answers based on common screw-ups in formula application or other math errors. Then, there is a big meeting of academics that are members of NCEES. They all take full exams of potential test questions, and grade their difficulty, quality, etc. Some of those questions make it into the test pool, then have to be analyzed based on how examinees did on them. Then they are able to be "equated" for future exams. When that whole process has to be repeated 80 times whenever an entire test is compromised, NCEES tends to get pretty pissed. That's why a girl in Puerto Rico recently got sued for $1 Million for compromising a PE exam. The NCEES won that lawsuit.


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## Dark Knight

wilheldp_PE said:


> My dad used to write questions for the industrial exam. They require that you provide the question, solution, all work for the solution shown, and other possible answers based on common screw-ups in formula application or other math errors. Then, there is a big meeting of academics that are members of NCEES. They all take full exams of potential test questions, and grade their difficulty, quality, etc. Some of those questions make it into the test pool, then have to be analyzed based on how examinees did on them. Then they are able to be "equated" for future exams. When that whole process has to be repeated 80 times whenever an entire test is compromised, NCEES tends to get pretty pissed. That's why a girl in Puerto Rico recently got sued for $1 Million for compromising a PE exam. The NCEES won that lawsuit.


The girl was making fatty money, but not millions, with that business of her but she was not alone. She was just the pawn. I heard that there were at least two guys involved in that. I never followed the whole story but would like to know what did happen to the others in the scheme. By the way, no way in heck she has 1M to pay NCEES.

Thanks for the lesson on how the test are selected WilH. Very interesting.


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## ptatohed

I would like to read the article but it appears that the archives don't go beyond ~3.5 years. http://www.ncees.org/About_NCEES/Licensure_Exchange.php

Is there a link to this June '07 article by chance? Thanks.


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## snickerd3

its not the original article but close enough to what was written in LE. Alabama wrote it see pg 15 for story

http://www.bels.alabama.gov/pdfs/2007%20Newsletter.pdf


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## Tim - formerly @ NCEES

We did have problems with some of our archives when we launched the new website. Here's a PDF of the Licensure Exchange article from June 2007.

Page_5_from_LEx_June_07_for_Web.pdf


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## ptatohed

Tim @ NCEES said:


> We did have problems with some of our archives when we launched the new website. Here's a PDF of the Licensure Exchange article from June 2007.
> 
> Page_5_from_LEx_June_07_for_Web.pdf


Thanks Mr. Miller. The article has your screen name slightly wrong. So, whatever happened to the candidate? Did his state board allow him to re-take the exam? (just curious)


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## wilheldp_PE

ptatohed said:


> Thanks Mr. Miller. The article has your screen name slightly wrong. So, whatever happened to the candidate? Did his state board allow him to re-take the exam? (just curious)


I can't speak for Tim, but my strong guess is HELL NO! You get one crack at ethics, and once you screw that up, no state board should allow you to sit for the exam.


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## Sapper PE LS

Just a little bumperoonie. They take the exam security very seriously, and for good reason.


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## Peele1

Is it ok to say something like, my exam seemed to have more question on topic blah-blah than I thought it would?

Or, my exam had questions on (some subtopic of blah-blah not explicitly listed on the topics page)?


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## Sapper PE LS

Peele1 said:


> Is it ok to say something like, my exam seemed to have more question on topic blah-blah than I thought it would?
> 
> Or, my exam had questions on (some subtopic of blah-blah not explicitly listed on the topics page)?


NOPE


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## Sapper PE LS

It's almost better to just say nothing at all. But if you have to say something, be very vague, and general. Here are some acceptable comment:

I thought the exam was harder than I was expecting. I am kicking myself because I missed an easy one. I'm stoked because there were some questions that I totally nailed!


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## Dark Knight

Peele1 said:


> Is it ok to say something like, my exam seemed to have more question on topic blah-blah than I thought it would?
> 
> Or, my exam had questions on (some subtopic of blah-blah not explicitly listed on the topics page)?




No Rambo...Don't do it!!!!!!!!!!


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## PEsoon2B

WOW, the guy that this thread is originally about is a MOOOOORRRROOOOONNNNNNNSSSKKKKIIIII


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## matt267 PE

:bump:

This topic is a good reminder for post exam chitchat...


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## Ramnares P.E.

With the PE exam a few days away all test takers should take the time to read this thread.

Best of luck to all test takers and please remember your NCEES agreement.

:bump:


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## NJmike PE

or don't. and give us all something to point and laugh at.


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## Ken PE 3.1

NJmike PE said:


> or don't. and give us all something to point and laugh at.


That's just wrong NJ. Funny but wrong.


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## Ramnares P.E.

Ken 3.0 said:


> NJmike PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> or don't. and give us all something to point and laugh at.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's just wrong *awesome* NJ. Funny but wrong.
Click to expand...


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## Sapper PE LS

Also, don't try to hack into the exam results notification memo, just trust me on this, even if it was not really intended to be malicious.


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## John QPE

Explain


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## NJmike PE

Better that he doesn't and you just take his word for it


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## Sapper PE LS

Seriously, take my word for it. If you find yourself in a position where you understand my statement, don't proceed any further.


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## Audi Driver P.E.

smithrj40 said:


> Anybody know where I can find a copy of that article, the post is from 2007 and it looks like that link has expired, I did a quick google search and couldn't find it anywhere either.


http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/LEx-June-07-for-Web.pdf

Perhaps a mod or admin will edit the op with the new link?


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## knight1fox3

Audi driver said:


> http://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/LEx-June-07-for-Web.pdf
> 
> Perhaps a mod or admin will edit the op with the new link?


Done.


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## steel

Bumping this because this thread is gold and it's a good thing to remember! Don't discuss the exam questions!


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## Orchid PE

It's a sticky thread....


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