# Being called Engineers



## EdinNO (May 18, 2006)

In my industry I see people often call themselves or titled "engineer" whether they have an engineering degree or whether they do anything close to engineering or not. For instance, HVAC equipment salesmen may be dubbed "sales engineers" whether they know the first thing technical or not. Building mechanical equipment operators are called stationary engineers. Many are plumbers, electricians, etc... who have moved into the role of maintaining the building equipment.

I think the liberal use of the term "engineer" can contribute to a "watering down" of the distinction of the title. I think it works to take away our value and potentially works to lower our salaries. At least that's the way it appears in my industry.

Trying to become a PE, we all know that we cannot legally call ourselves engineers until we get that license.

What are your thoughts on the fact that we can't call ourselves engineers YET, but just about anyone else can?

Do you think it affects our overall value on the market?

Ed


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## Road Guy (May 19, 2006)

I dont think it will ever actually hurt us, other than public perception.

The guy that is in charge of my office buildings maintenance calls himself the "Engineer" I dont think that hurts us. It was funny a few weeks ago, they hired another "engineer" so he now calls himself "Chief Engineer" :rotfl:

I hate seeing IT people who never even went to college, other than some "systems class" to work on networks call themselves Engineers, but to be honest, I just cant stand anyone in the IT field..


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## EdinNO (May 19, 2006)

Great responses guys. I see your points.

In my industry (HVAC) it may make a little more of a difference because the work I do (design and build control systems for a control systems contractor) generally uses engineers to do the design or engineering. Problem is that, as mentioned, anyone is an engineer.

I am considerig a move to the consulting engineering side of things. If I go there, as you mentioned, it shouldn't make a bit of difference.

Ed


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## DVINNY (May 19, 2006)

I can see both sides of this issue. On one hand, I don't like to see anyone use that term unless they are in fact a registered engineer, but on the other hand, the term engineer can be used somewhat loosely.

Nursing is a prime example of what we go through. Everyone knows that an RN is really a nurse, but in the hospital, the patients and families refer to the candy stripers as nurses, the food delivery staff as nurses, the ass wipers, the toilet cleaners, they are all nurses.

RN's and other medical professionals know the difference, and so does Human Resources. That's really were it matters.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (May 19, 2006)

I don't necessarily agree that being a PE is the only thing that entitles you to call yourself an engineer.

My gf is working on her PhD in biomedical engineering. It's definitely engineering as opposed to pure science. But, she comes from a science background, and plans to work in academia. There is little need for her to get a PE, and they don't even offer an exam in that discipline. And with her background and experience, she wouldn't even be eligible to take the FE exam.

I know a guy who's a software engineer. Designs all sorts of programs. Has an engineering degree. No PE though. It really wouldn't make a difference if he had one, no one is signing off/sealing the code they develop.

When it comes down to it, basically the PE is necessary when working on projects when the public safety and welfare are a concern. If your lab experiment bombs, or your code crashes, it sucks, but no one gets hurt.

So I would tend to use the PE as a benchmark for calling oneself an engineer in the fields where a PE is necessary.

And I agree with the other posters that if you want to call yourself a sales or sanitation engineer or whatever, that people will be able to tell the difference between that and the highly trained and educated professional.


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## jeb6294 (May 19, 2006)

There is company in my area called Environmental Engineering, Inc. They are one of the local heat/AC repair companies. I'd say that is a bit too much.


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## EdinNO (May 19, 2006)

jeb,

I would agree. Do they even do any type of design or engineering at all? Some mechanical contractors (essentially what they are) in the HVAC industry do a little "design-build" type stuff. There is a humongous one here in NO that has their own engineering group and they actually stamp designs, etc... but they don't even call themselves or that division of the company "engineering".

Are there potentially some legal ramifications to "Environmental Engineering" using the term "engineering" in their name? Do you think they are registered with the state in any capacity as an engineering firm?

Ed


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## RIP - VTEnviro (May 19, 2006)

I think that firm calling themselves Environmental Engineering, Inc. is misleading.

For one thing, they are not doing any engineering. They sound more like repair men. Engineering would be designing a new system to replace a failing/inadequate one, not just fixing it when it's broken.

And as for environmental, that's a bit of a stretch. Climate control is more appropriate to describe what they do.


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## DVINNY (May 19, 2006)

> There is company in my area called Environmental Engineering, Inc. They are one of the local heat/AC repair companies. I'd say that is a bit too much.


I see MANY problems with that.



That is just wrong.


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## Road Guy (May 19, 2006)

I am sure states have laws that cover that, I know its a no no here in Georgia.


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## EdinNO (May 19, 2006)

"Environmental" in itself for HVAC (air conditioning) is not too uncommon. Some companies do it in this industry in refernce to the indoor "environment". I know one company in Houston that deals with HVAC control systems called Open Environmental Technologies. The "open" is to signify open protocol control system language (ie, BACnet, LON, etc...) as opposed to proprietary.

We do see the "environmental" used, but I can see where it might make people think of environmental engineers or something similar.

Ed


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## RIP - VTEnviro (May 19, 2006)

Environmental is a real broad term. I worked for an office one summer in college that considered themselves environmental consultants.

Basically, they were a construction firm that specialized in removing/remediating leaky underground oil tanks. No engineering at all.

Another guy I know does septic design on his own. He's a PE. Calls himself an environmental consultant.

Indoor environment is a legitamate environment, becuase we spend lots of time there, and IAQ problems are significant. If they referred to themselves as building environment consultants, I think that would have been more appropriate. :tone:


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## Kipper (Jun 9, 2006)

JWI

My company has gone back and forth on what to label positions, between technicians or engineers.

They finally said if you have an engineering degree, then you will be titled engineer. If not then you are a technician.

An engineer is someone who uses math and science to desing or construct...

So in that sense I am an engineer. But IMHO, I am not an engineer until I get that license saying I am.

As far as titles or company names go, you can call yourself an engineer as long as you do not represent yourself as being one.

Not sure if that makes sense.

A dad on my daughters soccer team has a consulting firm and he is not a PE. I asked him how he can do that with out a license and he said as long as he is just giving his opinion and not signing anything he does not need his PE.

So after that long winded post, I say yes it does lessen the title of engineer when they do not have the license.

But they will never be able to put P.E. after their name. And I will. :read:


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jun 9, 2006)

> They finally said if you have an engineering degree, then you will be titled engineer. If not then you are a technician.


The last place I worked had that same policy. If you had a 4-year engineering degree, you were put on the "professional" track as far as job titles and such went.

Otherwise you were considered "technician" or "admin".

But, they wouldn't put engineer on your business card, unless you were actually a PE. So my title was staff engineer, but it didn't show up on my card.

At this job, my title is Associate Engineer. That appears on my card, as does E.I.T after my name.

So, I guess it depends on state and firm.


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## Road Guy (Jun 9, 2006)

I know there are a lot of interpretations, but I dont see a problem putting ____Engineer on your card, if you are an EIT, and put EIT on your card. Technically you are a licensed "Engineer in Training"

I took the easy way out and just had them put Project Manager on it, hopefully I can order some new ones here soon :beerchug


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## TouchDown (Jun 12, 2006)

Classifieds (job titles) crack me up.

Maintenance Engineer (mr. fix it at apartment complex)

Sanitary Engineer (Janitorial staff)

I work in manufacturing and my employer helped people to get "engineering" titled positions that didn't have the 4 year degree, but they had to complete similar coursework for ~2 years (Calc, Physics, etc.) to show they were serious. Then they received a company certificate showing they had a company "engineering degree"... From that point forward, they could apply for the "engineering" positions. They stopped doing this a few years ago, not sure why...

I use my engineering skills, but if someone were in my position, they could get around it if they needed to...


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## knelli (Jul 5, 2006)

I was just going to start a thread about this......

I do think it makes the role of an engineer less important in the eyes of general society......mostly to the people that don't know the difference between a real engineer and some made-up title.

NCEES had a state survey about the restrictive use of "engineer" titles. Visit http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensing_r.../survey_e.pdf#1

The state I was interested in (WI) didn't respond.

Yeah, it gets me that I know a guy who calls himself a "Materials Placement Engineer". Yes, he is a dump truck driver! Give me a break! :brick:

I agree with being able to put "Engineer" on your card if you are an EIT, as long as you have EIT on your card as well. The last place I worked, I was a "Designer". The CAD guy who couldn't do a thing unless he was told to do it was also called a "Designer". He was such a tool!! Grrrrrrrr!!

I agree, he should have been a Tech, definitely not the same title as the EIT's


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## Timmy! (Jul 8, 2006)

Although I now reside in Arizona, I used to live in Ohio. In Ohio, the use of the term "engineer" is serious stuff. The only people who can call themselves "engineers" have to have a four-year engineering degree from an ABET-accredited school.

There are only three exceptions:

1) Operating engineers (the guys who operate heavy machinery).

2) Stationery engineers (boiler operators).

3) And some lame category whereby your company calls you an engineer as part of your job title, even though you're not an engineering school graduate.

I used to work for a wireless communications company, with several guys titled as "RF Engineers" (with RF representing "Radio Frequency"). Some were high-school graduates, a couple were mathematicians, one had a degree in Journalism. But as that particular title was specified by the company, they were OK. However, if those guys went out to the public and advertised themselves as engineers, the wrath of the State Board would be sure and swift.


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## EdinNO (Jul 8, 2006)

Timmy!,

Those 3 exceptions cover most of the nimrods out there who operate mops and toilet plungers yet call themselves "building engineers". It urks me to no end that these glorified custodians now think they are engineers.

It bothers me more that a company can give someone the title of engineer and now its OK.

I just think there should be more stringent regulations on the title.

As a comparison, what if anyone who handled PR and legal matters dubbed themselves "lawyer"?

Or what of whoever doled out the emergency safety kit items (ie, Bandaids, gauze, burn ointment) called themselves "doctor" or "nurse".

It just aggravates me. Sorry.

Ed


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## Slugger926 (Aug 4, 2006)

> I was just going to start a thread about this......
> I do think it makes the role of an engineer less important in the eyes of general society......mostly to the people that don't know the difference between a real engineer and some made-up title.
> 
> NCEES had a state survey about the restrictive use of "engineer" titles. Visit http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensing_r.../survey_e.pdf#1
> ...


Posting that link on Eng - tip$ got me kicked off of that board.

Mis-use of the title irks me too. The boards don't seem to do enough to enforce their own laws. I wish they could be more proactive.


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## EdinNO (Aug 7, 2006)

I got admonished over there (eng-tips) by email for getting into a "debate" with one of the resident wankers on the site.

Ed


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