# Complaint Filed Against EPA with Colorado Licensing Board



## knight1fox3 (Sep 28, 2015)

From my NSPE email correspondence. Thought this was kind of interesting.



> On September 21, Rep. Bruce Westerman, P.E. (R-AR), an NSPE member, filed an official complaint with the Colorado Department of Regulatory Agencies, Division of Professions and Occupations, regarding the August 5, 2015, Gold King Mine disaster.
> 
> *EPA involved in the "practice of engineering"*
> 
> ...


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## bradlelf (Sep 28, 2015)

Bravo ... :appl:


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## Road Guy (Sep 28, 2015)

For some reason the feds dont feel they have to deal with pesky license issues


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## Supe (Sep 28, 2015)

They also have this tendency for their upper management to be immune to lawsuits/prosecution, even though they do just that to private corporations who have similar issues. I say its about damned time.


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## Dleg (Sep 28, 2015)

I agree. I'm a fed and I'm also a PE. I don't see why anyone else should be any exception.


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## kevo_55 (Sep 28, 2015)

I'm working on a new VA hospital in Seattle. Granted I'm not a fed employee, but why sub out the work to my firm if they couldn't do the work themselves?


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## Road Guy (Sep 28, 2015)

To transfer liability from them (us taxpayers) to you....

In some ways i get that governments are the owner and it doesn't make sense to charge one part of the government a fine to another part of the government,but this day in age they should do away with the grandfathering in of folks in high level positions that don't have a license.


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## jeb6294 (Sep 30, 2015)

Road Guy said:


> For some reason the feds dont feel they have to deal with pesky license issues




I probably should stay out of this one. I've invoked the "we're the Government so we can do what we want" rule a few times myself. Although I've never changed the color of an entire river...that I know of.


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## bradlelf (Sep 30, 2015)

I recently had a government reviewer (local not federal) that tried asking me to justify qualifications for designing a stormwater management BMP ... granted it was a complex system. I retorted that he had been in attendance at the agency sponsored training session that specifically covered this BMP; of which i was the technical speaker. I then asked for his qualifications to be able to review my plans and computations (he was not an engineer) ... the review is going much smoother now.

We have people with forestry degrees reviewing technical stormwater and E&amp;S plans as employees of DEP/CCDs; of which I find amazing.


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## NJmike PE (Sep 30, 2015)

bradlelf said:


> We have people with forestry degrees reviewing technical stormwater and E&amp;S plans as employees of DEP/CCDs; of which I find amazing.




True, this is a common issue within NJ. However it's also a difficult point to bring up without creating a pissing contest with the Agency and overall making for a tougher approval.


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## Road Guy (Sep 30, 2015)




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## Road Guy (Sep 30, 2015)

^- could also be a man in that photo


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## knight1fox3 (Sep 30, 2015)

^ nice recovery.


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## Road Guy (Sep 30, 2015)

Usually not, but could be...,


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## matt267 PE (Sep 30, 2015)

I might print that and tape it to the back of my clipboard.


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## NJmike PE (Sep 30, 2015)

matt267 said:


> I might print that and tape it to the back of my clipboard.


how do you find thyme to hold a clipboard when you are hugging trees


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## matt267 PE (Sep 30, 2015)

NJmike PE said:


> matt267 said:
> 
> 
> > I might print that and tape it to the back of my clipboard.
> ...


I have ways of getting things done.


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## engineergurl (Sep 30, 2015)

bradlelf said:


> We have people with forestry degrees reviewing technical stormwater and E&amp;S plans as employees of DEP/CCDs; of which I find amazing.


Really, why's that?


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## bradlelf (Oct 1, 2015)

engineergurl said:


> bradlelf said:
> 
> 
> > We have people with forestry degrees reviewing technical stormwater and E&amp;S plans as employees of DEP/CCDs; of which I find amazing.
> ...


They do not have the technical background or knowledge to question design decisions; regulatory comments sure but nothing regarding the practice of engineering. What about this scenario ... which happen a few years back. The CCD reviewer tried to tell my client (in front of me) that they should install a SLCPP pipe through the pond embankment (instead of the RCP pipe and concrete cradle) that I designed and would (eventually) seal.

Now, how would one construct a plastic pipe outfall, through a clay core (8" compacted lifts) without gravel? The pipe would crush when compacted and from the weight of the 8' of fill over top of it. Obviously you cannot use gravel because it would convey water. Also the reviewer didnt understand that the pipe was in pressure flow for the higher level storms, so pressure rated gaskets were an issue.

These are the far fetched comments that are sometimes written in their comment letters.

Now had I merely followed their direction/comment and ultimately the embankment failed ... who would get sued? I dont think the defense that they told me to would hold up in court.


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## matt267 PE (Oct 1, 2015)




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## mudpuppy (Oct 1, 2015)

Uh oh, this can't end well.

I will point out I have a friend with a forestry degree who works as an engineer at Chrysler and honestly he probably does a better job than a lot of the kids coming out of school.


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## bradlelf (Oct 1, 2015)

Eh ... not trying to pick a fight ... just pointing out my frustration (beyond the 2015 NFL season)


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## engineergurl (Oct 1, 2015)

bradlelf said:


> engineergurl said:
> 
> 
> > bradlelf said:
> ...


So you require the resume of your reviewers in order to determine what comments they are or aren't qualified to make?



mudpuppy said:


> Uh oh, this can't end well.


What's that supposed to mean?



bradlelf said:


> Eh ... not trying to pick a fight ... just pointing out my frustration (beyond the 2015 NFL season)


No fight, honestly, it was a rare occasion that I would ever make a comment on the design aspect of a plan and usually only when I felt the design was truly flawed and I wanted to be doubly sure that the liability was on the designer and the A&amp;E firm. However keep in mind that there are plenty of forestry majors who have not only taken engineering classes, they have years of experience and are also qualified to pursue a path to their PE in some states if they were motivated to do so. You probably don't know the technical background or knowledge of everyone you encounter and sometimes it does help to ask them WHY they made a comment rather than dismissing them or insulting them. It may be an opportunity to either teach or learn.


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## bradlelf (Oct 1, 2015)

My master detective skills tell me I have walked into something ...






I apologize if I have offend you; truly not my intention.

Engineering courses do not make an engineer, neither does an engineering degree. Your point about experience is well taken ... right out of college I was yelled at for an hour at a construction site by a 70 year old concrete contractor because i did something stupid on a plan. That man knows more about concrete than I will ever in my life ... i learned many lessons from him subsequently from other interactions on projects.

My biggest complaint with reviewers in general is overstepping the bounds of a review; in the case above it was not his role to try and value engineer my design ... especially not in front of my client. There is a rhyme and reason behind the design. To question a computation or whether it meets an ordinance/regulation is one thing ... but to try and redesign an engineer's work is not their role. Questions are good; trying to force an engineers hand is another.

I try to keep the same in mind with my interactions with traffic, structural, etc engineers on projects team. I dont questions their designs ... but i do ask questions. I would never tell a traffic engineer that he should be able to get a signal warrant or a structural engineer that his slab is too thick. I might ask if they considered a factor in their design but to out-right try to tell them how to design something they are liable for ... no thank you.

I'm off topic from the original post ... Booo EPA non-engineers designing things that affect the life, health and safety of the general public. Boooooo






Yes ... I am cranky and probably sound like an asshole. Bad couple of days.


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## engineergurl (Oct 1, 2015)

lol, just an FYI... I only have an AAS in civil engineering technology... and a BS in Forest Ecosystems Management. I do have about 10 years of experience more on the engineering and construction side of things, and have run into a LOT of young engineers that came in with an attitude that they knew better than me. I could tell you stories... man, I could tell you stories.

I do agree with you regarding the questioning of designs. I was always representing the client so it was a non-issue because I was in essence the client, designers were supposed to keep me happy  However there is respect due and if I had a question regarding the design, I would always approach it differently... unless of course the engineer was a jerk.


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## Road Guy (Oct 2, 2015)

people that work in the permit side (government) do tend to come off like the sun rises and sets with them. I had to get permits for jobs that were not road jobs when I was at the DOT- we were the construction wing of the county so if we did a parking lot for parks or some other department we would have to go pull a permit (dumb) but the folks in that department were some of the biggest aholes I have ever dealt with in my entire life... I think part of it was they were always upset that we would do these 50 million dollar road jobs and not have to get their "permission" to do them, then I would have this small job and they would be like "oh I got you now" mother fucker!!!!!"""

I dont know how land development people deal with those types

and yes not all are like this but a lot are..


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## Dexman PE PMP (Oct 2, 2015)

That's why you develop friends within the agency who oversee the permit reviewers. When they think they "got you now", I just respond with, "Go check with &lt;insert friends name&gt;, and GFY"


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## matt267 PE (Oct 2, 2015)

Road Guy said:


> people that work in the permit side (government) do tend to come off like the sun rises and sets with them.


Are you suggesting that the sun doesn't?


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## bradlelf (Oct 2, 2015)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> That's why you develop friends within the agency who oversee the permit reviewers. When they think they "got you now", I just respond with, "Go check with &lt;insert friends name&gt;, and GFY"




This is why a do A LOT of volunteer work with agency high ups ... connections and relationships make the world go round.


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## Road Guy (Oct 2, 2015)

It was impossible to do that in my situation because I was at the DOT, our county manager was the former head of community development, the dept that issue the permits, so we were always looked at as "those assholes "that never had to get permits

It's slowed down a bit because the projects we had to get permits on were for other departments work so I had to start requesting budget from their departments to pay someone to stamp the plans.

But it was a total headache


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## Dleg (Oct 2, 2015)

^another possible solution: invite the permitting department over to provide training to your staff and consultants, and offer to voluntarily incorporate BMPs and allow courtesy plan reviews (with tight timeframes and no guarantees of compliance). Then you're best friends for life. And you have created a new "program" which is a major feather in the cap.


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## Road Guy (Oct 2, 2015)

That would be like Colin Powell inviting me to talk to him about leadership......


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## bradlelf (Oct 9, 2015)

Here we go again ... http://www.weaselzippers.us/236342-unbelievable-epa-triggers-another-waste-spill-in-colorado/

Damn forestry majors .... (joking)


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## engineergurl (Oct 9, 2015)

Eh, like the EPA hires forestry majors, all those guys were environmental science majors who took classes like urban landscaping and junk... only one step up from landscape architects if you ask me


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