# Hard Rock Hotel construction site collapse in New Orleans



## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 13, 2019)

Update: Latest I've heard: 3 dead, 20 injured,


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## Dleg (Oct 13, 2019)

Jesus.


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## leggo PE (Oct 14, 2019)

This is so, so terrible. I am waiting to see more information about what caused the collapse.


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Oct 14, 2019)

Holy crap.

So, wait, is this a hotel under construction?

If anyone sees any more news, i’d be curious to know.


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## chart94 PE (Oct 14, 2019)

ChebyshevII PE said:


> Holy crap.
> 
> So, wait, is this a hotel under construction?
> 
> If anyone sees any more news, i’d be curious to know.


https://www.wwltv.com/article/news/local/one-person-still-missing-after-hard-rock-hotel-collapse-building-still-unstable/289-8a317bed-abf1-4274-a00e-44b91706f724


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 14, 2019)

Yeah. Happened Saturday (10/12). A hotel under construction in downtown New Orleans on Canal Street (right on the edge of the French Quarter). 
 



> The Canal Street construction of the hotel in downtown New Orleans was announced in February 2018. Hard Rock International had originally planned to open the 18-story hotel in the spring of 2019, but its opening was [previously] pushed back to the spring of 2020. The company planned to build 350 hotel rooms, four meeting spaces, two ballrooms plus 62 one- and two-bedroom units available for purchase.


As of yesterday they were still very much in search and rescue mode. Trying to get the necessary cranes to the site to get cleanup underway. I haven't heard anything about investigation of the cause yet. I'm sure that's coming soon.


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## Road Guy (Oct 14, 2019)

I’ve always wondered who really checks this stuff in these big cities?

I’ve only worked for two large cities , City of Atlanta and City Of Denver, But both seemed to full of very incompetent people- especially in terms of checking high rise building calculations- maybe they just have the developer submit triple checked calcs?


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## jeb6294 (Oct 15, 2019)

Trying to remember something fairly similar that happened years ago.  While steel was going up, they put in the bolts at the connectors to hold everything in place, but forgot to go back and tighten everything.  Wonder if this will end up being a similar circumstance?


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## Dleg (Oct 17, 2019)

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/10/16/hard-rock-hotel-new-orleans-video-shows-flaws-contractor-claims/4005543002/


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## Ramnares P.E. (Oct 17, 2019)

Looks like a case of absolute negligence by the designers/engineers...


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## Supe (Oct 17, 2019)

Assuming the contractors actually assembled it as they should have!


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## Master slacker (Oct 17, 2019)

Ooooooooooooohhh... Even I know that what the phone video shows is no good.  Geez


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## Road Guy (Oct 17, 2019)

“Thin” metal decking is used all the time for bridge decks - but I don’t think I have seen slabs that long on bridges without supports.

But I don’t know anything about building a “building”


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 17, 2019)

I'm a relatively new PE and not a civil. I have questions, that yall can probably help me with.

From my understanding, a PE would be required to review and approve the final design and stamp the drawings, right? No PE approval is required on the intermediate construction steps, like temporary supports, etc; is that correct? That's determined by the construction company?... which is often separate from the engineering firm? How is that normally done, and by whom?


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## Road Guy (Oct 17, 2019)

Yes that's true, however normally these would be submitted as shop drawings and would get reviewed by the engineer also (that's how bridge and large walls are) Ive only built one large building and most everything like that went through the architect- who would have them reviewed. 

There is going to be plenty of blame to go around I would imagine


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## blybrook PE (Oct 17, 2019)

From a structural point of view, without seeing the actual drawings, I can only _*guess*_ what the design methods were. Without knowing the actual decking gauge (thickness), and the type of concrete (normal weight vs light weight); I can't even make a guess if the decking itself was adequate for the temporary loading or the type of design methods utilized.

The official "issued for construction" or 100% signed drawings would have been reviewed by the Engineer of Record (EOR), who should have signed the drawings. I am not familiar with the New Orleans building department requirements, but many building departments that I have dealt with will have a PE on staff that will review / approve the drawings prior to the start of construction. It adds a level of review by a third party that helps protect the public. Needless to say, something seriously went wrong with this project.

As for the intermediate / temporary supports, the design / use of those is typically left with the construction company who _may_ submit the products to be utilized to the AOR / EOR for review, depending on how the contract is written. Many times, the EOR will not review this submittal themselves, they'll have the EIT review it as part of their training and hope that this individual asks the right questions about their use prior to approving the submittal. These are also typically submitted as General Information or FYI Only as the EOR does not want to take responsibility for the construction ways &amp; means. It is a tricky situation for the temporary supports and one that several structural engineers that I know shy away from.

I have had projects where the contractor didn't feel comfortable with their ways and means on temporary supports before coming back to the firm I worked for and hired us to design their temporary supports. We then performed the design which went through the review process with the owner and visited the site multiple times while it was being constructed to verify that the contractor was installing it properly. Other projects, the contractor had a plan in place for the temporary supports and built the project with no input from the EOR.

Each contractor is likely to handle it differently. There are a lot of unknowns with this collapse and a full investigation needs to be completed. Until that time, the blame game will be in full force and every bodies name is going to be dragged into the mud.


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## Master slacker (Oct 17, 2019)

In my monthly Engineering magazine that comes from the LA Board, I'm sure there will be plenty of talk about this and investigations will abound beginning next month.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 17, 2019)

They've decided to blow up the cranes that are still on top of the building. They are unstable, and a tropical storm may be coming.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/10/17/us/new-orleans-hard-rock-cranes/

Also they've given up on finding the 1 person missing still alive.


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## Dleg (Oct 18, 2019)

^I responded to a major typhoon last year and after the storm there was a crane about the size of those ones that was damaged and leaning against the building, and every day I had to drive under it multiple times.  I had a pretty good pucker going every time!

Had some drinks in a hotel bar with the OSHA crane inspector guy and got the story of why they weren't evacuating the area in that particular instance: the building itself had not been damaged, and the crane, although it was leaning, had been braced to the structure of the building with welded members that he found to be adequate. And ultimately it did not collapse. But still terrifying to drive under every day.


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## RBHeadge PE (Oct 18, 2019)

Road Guy said:


> I’ve always wondered who really checks this stuff in these big cities?


I think some cities contract with another firm to check the designs and calcs? I used to work for Philly, but I never heard how they did the approvals for the skyscrapers. I can't imagine they had the right people in house to do that work.



Supe said:


> Assuming the contractors actually assembled it as they should have!


^this


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 18, 2019)

Apparently there's some debate going on regarding whether they should just bring down the cranes or implode the whole building. At this point the building is probably a total loss, and with high winds predicted, imploding the whole building is probably the safer option. But that would destroy evidence vital to the investigation.
Edit: Sounds like they've decided to only demo the cranes for now. Doing it tomorrow (Saturday).


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 20, 2019)

I'm not sure this went as planned...

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/20/us/new-orleans-hard-rock-crane.html


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 20, 2019)




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## Dleg (Oct 21, 2019)

Yeah I would assume that leaving one of the cranes upright, loose and leaning inside the structure is not what was intended??? I wonder what the other crane hit on it's way down. 

Damn.


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## JayKay PE (Oct 21, 2019)

I just read about them imploding the cranes when I was scanning LinkedIn this morning.  Uh.  That other crane did not demo the way they wanted, I think.  I'm really hoping this developer has good insurance, because this seems to be turning into a stickier and stickier mess.


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## Master slacker (Oct 21, 2019)

What a mess.  Never would have expected that from New Orleans.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 21, 2019)

Dleg said:


> Yeah I would assume that leaving one of the cranes upright, loose and leaning inside the structure is not what was intended??? I wonder what the other crane hit on it's way down.
> 
> Damn.


From what I understand, the one that fell to the ground left a pretty good hole in the street and damaged an underground sewer line, but it didn't damage the nearby electrical and gas lines which was the bigger concern. (They shut off all the utilities in the area before the demo.)

The official message from the city officials is (paraphrasing)... "Everything went perfectly. This is exactly how it was planned. Now we can recover the deceased and continue with the cleanup."
¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## jeb6294 (Oct 21, 2019)

Love the dude in the black shirt at the 0:12 mark.  Probably got up early so he could go down and stand in a crowd to watch and then turns around just in time to miss the good part.


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## Master slacker (Oct 21, 2019)

jeb6294 said:


> Love the dude in the black shirt at the 0:12 mark.  Probably got up early so he could go down and stand in a crowd to watch and then turns around just in time to miss the good part.


Somebody was probably flashin' dem boobs


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## RBHeadge PE (Oct 21, 2019)

jean15paul_PE said:


> The official message from the city officials is (paraphrasing)... "Everything went perfectly. This is exactly how it was planned. Now we can recover the deceased and continue with the cleanup."


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## leggo PE (Oct 21, 2019)

What a terrible, tragic mess.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 20, 2020)

New information is finally starting to come out... and it's not good.

https://www.fox8live.com/2020/02/20/zurik-third-city-inspector-likely-did-not-visit-hard-rock-site-when-he-signed-off-work/

Some excerpts...



> FOX 8 has been poring over GPS records from the vehicle fleet for the City of New Orleans Department of Safety and Permits following the Oct. 12 collapse of the Hard Rock Hotel construction site that killed three men.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


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## Master slacker (Feb 20, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> Treadaway submitted his intent to retire from his position hours before FOX 8 aired a report on his vehicle’s GPS data.


Too late, mf'r.  Don't expect that sweet, sweet pension in jail.


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## csb (Feb 20, 2020)

I read an article this morning that they are planning on demoing the buildings with the other bodies still inside.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 20, 2020)

csb said:


> I read an article this morning that they are planning on demoing the buildings with the other bodies still inside.


Yeah, 3 people were killed. They were only able to recover 1 body, so there are still 2 inside. The building is dangerously unstable and access is limited.

The city put out a bid request for demolition, and one of the requirements was recovering the bodies before demolition. All the companies either said it wasn't possible or refused to submit a bid. So the city had to revise the requirement to recovering the remains after demolition (by implosion).

It sucks, and I feel terrible for those families. But at the same time, it's not worth getting anyone else killed to recover the bodies, so I get it.


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## csb (Feb 20, 2020)

We can't send one of those bomb robots in to drag them out?


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 20, 2020)

csb said:


> We can't send one of those bomb robots in to drag them out?


I have no definite info
But I would imagine with a building having collapsed all around (and on top of) them, getting access to the bodies probably requires moving large and potentially load-bearing pieces of concrete.


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## jeb6294 (Feb 20, 2020)

But in the end, does this really do anything aside from giving the families someone else to add to their lawsuit? It should still be up to the contractor to make sure the work is being done correctly?


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## jeb6294 (Feb 20, 2020)

We had our little collapse here in Cincy a couple months ago.  Four hurt, one dead (who they were able to get out) but they were back to work a week later.  Work resumed on other parts of the building and they were bringing in a structural firm to evaluate the area where the collapse happened.

I've gotta figure that no matter what the Engineer says, it's going to be hard to find tenants because it's always going to be "that building that collapsed".


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 20, 2020)

Well, there's a big debate about who is going to pay for everything. There are SO many people who have damages:


the families of the 3 people killed,

the 2 dozen people who were injured, 

the property owner / developer,

the contractor / builder,

the city,

the business in the area that are either shut down or making less money due to less foot traffic,

the residents in the area who had to be temporarily relocated.

It's very important to figure out who is at fault because they have to pay all of those damages.


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## RBHeadge PE (Feb 20, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> > City inspection logs showed Treadaway gave contractors at the Hard Rock site the approval to pour slab on the 14th floor. Instead, GPS data from the city vehicle showed on that July day, Treadaway made a morning stop in Treme, then went to the Westbank, stopping at the University of Holy Cross, his home in Gretna and an Ochsner Clinic -- but not near the Hard Rock Hotel site.


I've heard this story before.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Philadelphia_building_collapse

tl;dr The L&amp;I inspector did the same thing. He killed himself out of guilt.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Dec 7, 2021)

Co worker posted this the other day. Those are some serious field changes.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Dec 7, 2021)

vhab49_PE said:


> Co worker posted this the other day. Those are some serious field changes.
> <iframe width="560" height="315" src="" title="YouTube video player" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>



Thanks for sharing.
For whatever it's worth the city councilwoman, Kristen Palmer, who they talked about at the beginning of this video lost her recent election campaign.


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## kevo_55 (Dec 8, 2021)

They used W6x20 columns on the top floors? WTF were they thinking?? I have never seen something so small in a multi-story building.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Dec 8, 2021)

kevo_55 said:


> They used W6x20 columns on the top floors? WTF were they thinking?? I have never seen something so small in a multi-story building.


Heck, we very rarely use a W6 for anything. Too hard to get a connection on one.


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## blybrook PE (Dec 8, 2021)

The engineer that signed off on this is facing a major legal battle, I know I could never get my calcs to pencil out on something that small for that type of load even when ignoring wind/seismic!


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## leggo PE (Dec 8, 2021)

I’ve never seen a W6 used ever! Smallest we’ll go is a W8, for connections like mentioned above.


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## blybrook PE (Dec 8, 2021)

I've used W6 in the past for a short elevated walkway brace and in numerous pipe supports. 

As for using them as part of the primary structural system, never.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Dec 8, 2021)

leggo PE said:


> I’ve never seen a W6 used ever! Smallest we’ll go is a W8, for connections like mentioned above.


We use W6 for spacers on a very rare occasion. But that is about it. If I am using a 6" anything it is usually a tube.


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## Supe (Dec 9, 2021)

I really appreciate the "nothing lined up and the beams were too short so we just slugged weld metal in there to fill the gaps instead" approach.


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