# CA lawyer wanting to take FE exam in order to take patent bar



## mikeesq (Jan 22, 2009)

I am a lawyer in california and want to become a patent attorney. I was a finance major in college but took 2 years of science courses. (physics, calc, chem, bio).

I can go back to college and take about 5 or 6 courses or take the FE exam. I think from my research that i can take the test in either utah or michigan.

My question is: how hard is this exam? I relearned everything for the CA bar in 2 months and passed the first time. I am well versed and enjoy math and science. Can one actually study for 3 months (im thinking about taking the april exam) and pass this exam? How much memorization is involved? Is it more actual 4 years of knowledge or just a lot of memorizing formulas and understanding basic concepts?

Thanks for your help.


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## ARLORD (Jan 22, 2009)

Welcome to the site mikeesq,

I can't help with your question since I haven't taken the EIT in years. But I am curious about your career goals. I know that patent lawyers have to have degrees in both law and science. Do you have a science degree or do you plan to get one, and why do you need to take the EIT/FE exam. Do you want to take the PE exam eventually.


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## benbo (Jan 22, 2009)

mikeesq said:


> I am a lawyer in california and want to become a patent attorney. I was a finance major in college but took 2 years of science courses. (physics, calc, chem, bio).
> I can go back to college and take about 5 or 6 courses or take the FE exam. I think from my research that i can take the test in either utah or michigan.


I think you could pass it but in your case I would take an FE review course - it will help you target your studying.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jan 22, 2009)

mikeesq said:


> I am a lawyer in california and want to become a patent attorney. I was a finance major in college but took 2 years of science courses. (physics, calc, chem, bio).


From what I heard interviewing with the patent office and speaking to a guy who worked there, the normal route is to be an engineer working for the patent office for four or five years, then taking the bar exam. Sounds like you're coming at it from the opposite side.


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## IlliniASU (Jan 22, 2009)

I think you could do it if you set your mind to it. I have degrees in architecture and passed the FE on the first time. I taught myself what I needed to know for the exam based on the Lindeburg FE review book and the supplied reference manual. If it helps, I had no calc-based physics or college level chem and had only taken through calc II when I took the exam.

Good luck!


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jan 22, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> From what I heard interviewing with the patent office and speaking to a guy who worked there, the normal route is to be an engineer working for the patent office for four or five years, then taking the bar exam. Sounds like you're coming at it from the opposite side.


I think it's the other way around. You have to be an attorney and then to be eligible to take the exam for patent attorney, you have to prove you have the technical skills. To prove that you either have to get a BS in engineering or a degree in some other technical area (math, physics) or you can take and pass the FE exam as proof that you are technically knowledgeable. But only some states will let you take the FE without an engineering degree.


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## Ritchie503 (Jan 22, 2009)

mikeesq said:


> I can go back to college and take about 5 or 6 courses or take the FE exam. I think from my research that i can take the test in either utah or michigan.
> My question is: how hard is this exam? I relearned everything for the CA bar in 2 months and passed the first time. I am well versed and enjoy math and science. Can one actually study for 3 months (im thinking about taking the april exam) and pass this exam? How much memorization is involved? Is it more actual 4 years of knowledge or just a lot of memorizing formulas and understanding basic concepts?


The FE exam is offered in all 50 states. If you are strong in math/physical sciences I think you will be able to pass the exam. Depending how far out of college/how much math you remember, 3 months should be enough study time I would think - I took it senior year of college and only put about 30 hours into studying for it. On the exam you are allowed to use FE Reference Handbook, it has formulas and unit conversions, etc in it. Go to http://www.ncees.org to learn more about the FE exam or get a copy of the reference handbook.

~Ritchie


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## alexd (Jan 22, 2009)

mikeesq said:


> I am a lawyer in california and want to become a patent attorney. I was a finance major in college but took 2 years of science courses. (physics, calc, chem, bio).
> I can go back to college and take about 5 or 6 courses or take the FE exam. I think from my research that i can take the test in either utah or michigan.
> 
> My question is: how hard is this exam? I relearned everything for the CA bar in 2 months and passed the first time. I am well versed and enjoy math and science. Can one actually study for 3 months (im thinking about taking the april exam) and pass this exam? How much memorization is involved? Is it more actual 4 years of knowledge or just a lot of memorizing formulas and understanding basic concepts?
> ...



It is funny that you ask because 4 years ago I took a prep class for FE exam and it was taught by a student who was attending law school. The class was excellent and better than the class offered by PPI. I couldn't have passed the exam without that instructor.

Now back to the questions, I think you should take the FE exam. If you can pass the bar exam with one try then FE exam should be a piece of cake for you. I remember the exam covers a lot of math. However, the math will not be at calculus level. You should also review circuits, thermodynamics, heat transfer, statics, and fluids on the FERM if you already odered one. For the afternoon section, you should choose "General" depth because it is a lot easier then choosing a single subject.


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## jrsc (Jan 22, 2009)

As far as the math on the FE I remember calculus and differential equations on the exam because I was taking diff. eq. and the time in college and one question on the FE was the same as on a diff. eq. test eariler in the week.


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## benbo (Jan 22, 2009)

There's calc on the exam.

Here's the specs -

http://www.ncees.org/exams/fundamentals/fe_exam_specs.pdf

But it is not real involved. Remember, in the AM they expect you to spend 2 monutes or less on each question.

Download the free reference manual and it will give you an idea.

http://www.ncees.org/exams/study_materials...dbook/index.php


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## bugmenot (Jan 22, 2009)

Not an answer to the OP but to clarify some things.

In order to take the patent bar, you must meet certain technical requirements. If you pass and after a public inquiry on your ethical and moral background, you become a patent agent. Additionally, if you are a lawyer or you become a lawyer after passing, you are a patent attorney. I also recall that a technically qualified person can waive the patent bar if s/he worked for a certain numbers of years (4 maybe?) as a patent examiner for the USPTO. To be a patent attorney, I am sure there is a bit more to it such as bar certifications.

To answer the OP question. One of the most effective way to study for these types of exams is to just do problems. Practice as much as you can and try to understand what you are doing. Also use the most comfortable calculator from the list.


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## mikeesq (Jan 22, 2009)

from the patent bar website:

The Fundamentals of Engineering Exam (FE Exam) allow you to qualify to take the Patent Bar Exam under "Category C." The FE Exam is developed and administered by the State Board of Engineering Examiners in each state.

so i think i can just take the exam, pass it, then take and pass the patent bar! (sounds easy right?)


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## Ritchie503 (Jan 22, 2009)

mikeesq said:


> from the patent bar website:The Fundamentals of Engineering Exam (FE Exam) allow you to qualify to take the Patent Bar Exam under "Category C." The FE Exam is developed and administered by the State Board of Engineering Examiners in each state.
> 
> so i think i can just take the exam, pass it, then take and pass the patent bar! (sounds easy right?)


The FE Exam is developed on a national level, NCEES grades all tests and forwards recommendations to the states. (Some others here know much more about the process than I do - I just know I don't have to take it again!)

Good luck on all the tests!!!


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jan 22, 2009)

mikeesq said:


> from the patent bar website:The Fundamentals of Engineering Exam (FE Exam) allow you to qualify to take the Patent Bar Exam under "Category C." The FE Exam is developed and administered by the State Board of Engineering Examiners in each state.
> 
> so i think i can just take the exam, pass it, then take and pass the patent bar! (sounds easy right?)


My earlier point was that Minnesota may not let you take the FE exam without an engineering degree from an ABET accredited program. Each state has their own eligibility requirements.


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## EM_PS (Jan 22, 2009)

He was right that he can take it in MI - there is no State board approval or fee required to sit for FE in MI (outside of ELSES)


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## Desert Engineer (Jan 23, 2009)

One thing that might help, is to purchase the reference guide given during the exam. You should be able to solve all the problems by only looking at the reference guide. The better you know it, the faster you will be able to answer questions.


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## Tark62 (Jan 25, 2009)

My take on FE and patent bar issues:

- Most people qualify for the patent bar by earning a science or engineering degree. But there are some alternative ways to qualify, including passing the FE exam. This is what the Original Poster would like to do.

- The FE exam is the same in all states. However, different states have widely varying education and experience standards for admission. I've heard that New Hampshire automatically admits any interested FE candidate, without regard to education or experience. Michigan is also supposed to be relatively loose. In California, you can qualify for the FE exam by self-certifying that you have three years of engineering-related work experience OR three years of acceptable engineering education (either one or the other is sufficient, you don't need both).

- The 4-hour morning portion of the FE exam tests general knowledge of math, physics, chemistry, and computer science, generally at the freshman to sophomore level. Individual questions are not that difficult; what makes the exam challenging is the sheer breadth of material that is covered.

- The 4-hour afternoon portion of the FE exam offers a choice: you can continue with "general" questions (as in the morning), or you can tackle more specialized problems related to specific branches of engineering. If you've had freshman to sophomore level exposure to math, physics, chemistry, and computer science, then you should be able to pass the FE exam by selecting the "general" afternoon section.

- The FE exam is closed book, except for a standardized Reference Handbook which you are issued in the exam room. You can get your own copy and familiarize yourself with it before the exam, but you won't be allowed to use your personal copy during the exam. Since you will have the Handbook, you don't need to do a lot of memorization; the hard part is recognizing the appropriate formula for a given problem and completing the necessary calculation.

- You are required to bring your own calculator, which must be an approved model. The cheapest approved models are in the $15-20 range; the most expensive are in the $50-60 range.

- Excellent study guides for the general FE exam are available, such as the "FE Review Manual: Rapid Preparation for the General Fundamentals of Engineering Exam," by Lindeburg. Review classes are widely available as well; your local engineering school may offer them.

- If you are starting now, you may or may not be able to get up to speed for the April exam, depending on how much study time you have and how much of your undergraduate science and math you remember. I would order a study guide, look it over, and then estimate how long it might realistically take to master all of the material. In California, the registration deadline for the April 2009 exam is on February 20.

- You will have to wait 2-3 months after the exam before you get the pass/fail result.


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## james-law (Apr 30, 2010)

A copy of the examination regulations may be obtained from the Chartered Institute of Patent Attorneys.


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