# CPEES feedback



## mark035 (Jun 27, 2007)

Hello everyone, I will appreciate any feedback or info that anyone might have about CPEES, I had my bachelor in Civil Engineering from Egypt which is a 5 year degree, I had my degree evaluated long time ago by World Education Services (long before CPEES was around) and they gave me a favorite review basically saying that my degree is equivelant to accredited engineering degrees in the US, I gave that to the board in Ohio and they were satisfied with it, they let me take the FE and I passed, unfortunately I waited too long to take my PE, now the board wants me to have my degree re-evaluated by CPEES, it's only been a week since I submitted my trascripts to CPEES but as you can imagine I'm very anxious, I heard people say the CPEES evaluations are almost never favorable and they always come back saying that you're lacking a certain amount of credit hours in Humanitarian Science or whatever and I wonder if that happens to me then what's next? thanks in advance.


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## jascia1919 (Jun 27, 2007)

It is true. I barely heard any person passed CPEES. But as long as your degree is certified as a four-year engineering degree, the Boards usually will be fine with it if you have enough experience here.


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## rajivmatta (Dec 28, 2007)

jascia1919 said:


> It is true. I barely heard any person passed CPEES. But as long as your degree is certified as a four-year engineering degree, the Boards usually will be fine with it if you have enough experience here.



Based on Latest figures released by CPEES, they find about 21 percent of reviewed applications "Substantially Equivalent" to ABET accredited undergraduate programs..They have not provided a Country by Country breakdown..However maximum applications for review have been from India and China..Rumor has it that some programs in India will be soon part of the Washington Accord..and as such will not require any review..You may want to check if Eqypt is a signotory to the Washington Accord or may become one in the near future..This could potentially save you 375$

As per my conversations with the Board, most foriegn Engineering degrees are lacking in Social Subjects (varying from Civil Science to Humanity)..Engineering Credits are usually found to be at par if records are supplied along with proper translations and directly by the University (which can be a big issue, applications lacking proper documents will not be reviewed at all and become dormant in 6 months)..It is then left to the Licensing Boards to decide whether they will consider a degree lacking in Social Science credits as Equivalent or not..Its entirely at the Board's descretion once Cpees sends its evaluation..


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## Coolguru (Jan 4, 2008)

jascia1919 said:


> It is true. I barely heard any person passed CPEES. But as long as your degree is certified as a four-year engineering degree, the Boards usually will be fine with it if you have enough experience here.



I am so frustrated with the CPEES requirement that the transcripts should be mailed directly by the University in India. I recently asked them if they have a job opening for me as an evaluator.

My case is, I hold advanced (Ph.D.) degree from US University with nearly 4 GPA, passed both EIT and PE in one shot and holds masters degree from one of indias topmost school. I am seeking comity in another states and that state require CPEES evaluation. Interestingly, Ohio board allowed me to take PE without CPEES evaluation simply because I hold advanced degree from US university whose undergraduate program is ABET accredited.

I have absolutely no problem to evaluate my credential but arranging to send the transcripts and other information from University in India is asking for too much.

I did extensive research on CPEES evaluators and none of those evaluators have advanced degree and none holds any kind of registration (EIT/PE). On top of this none of the credential evalutors have education in engineering?. I am not sure what qualification they have which the board do not posses to evaluate the document on their own.

You as an Engineer you can see my transcripts and comment that my courses are trash and I need additional coursework in thermodynamics or whatever. It is acceptable, but imagine a person who do not understand the difference between stress and strain, and whose entire education is primarily in the area of humanity how competant he/she is to evaluate your engneering documents?

Its very frustrating especially after passing the examination.


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## Coolguru (Jan 4, 2008)

rajivmatta said:


> Based on Latest figures released by CPEES, they find about 21 percent of reviewed applications "Substantially Equivalent" to ABET accredited undergraduate programs..They have not provided a Country by Country breakdown..However maximum applications for review have been from India and China..Rumor has it that some programs in India will be soon part of the Washington Accord..and as such will not require any review..You may want to check if Eqypt is a signotory to the Washington Accord or may become one in the near future..This could potentially save you 375$
> As per my conversations with the Board, most foriegn Engineering degrees are lacking in Social Subjects (varying from Civil Science to Humanity)..Engineering Credits are usually found to be at par if records are supplied along with proper translations and directly by the University (which can be a big issue, applications lacking proper documents will not be reviewed at all and become dormant in 6 months)..It is then left to the Licensing Boards to decide whether they will consider a degree lacking in Social Science credits as Equivalent or not..Its entirely at the Board's descretion once Cpees sends its evaluation..


Rajiv

Please help me I am seeking comity in other state who requires CPEES evaluation. Please advise. I already passed PE this year.

I am so frustrated with the CPEES requirement that the transcripts should be mailed directly by the University in India. I recently asked them if they have a job opening for me as an evaluator.

My case is, I hold advanced (Ph.D.) degree from US University with nearly 4 GPA, passed both EIT and PE in one shot and holds masters degree from one of indias topmost school. I am seeking comity in another states and that state require CPEES evaluation. Interestingly, Ohio board allowed me to take PE without CPEES evaluation simply because I hold advanced degree from US university whose undergraduate program is ABET accredited.

I have absolutely no problem to evaluate my credential but arranging to send the transcripts and other information from University in India is asking for too much.

I did extensive research on CPEES evaluators and none of those evaluators have advanced degree and none holds any kind of registration (EIT/PE). On top of this none of the credential evalutors have education in engineering?. I am not sure what qualification they have which the board do not posses to evaluate the document on their own.

You as an Engineer you can see my transcripts and comment that my courses are trash and I need additional coursework in thermodynamics or whatever. It is acceptable, but imagine a person who do not understand the difference between stress and strain, and whose entire education is primarily in the area of humanity how competant he/she is to evaluate your engneering documents?

Its very frustrating especially after passing the examination.


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## rohitss (Mar 12, 2008)

Coolguru said:


> I am so frustrated with the CPEES requirement that the transcripts should be mailed directly by the University in India. I recently asked them if they have a job opening for me as an evaluator.
> My case is, I hold advanced (Ph.D.) degree from US University with nearly 4 GPA, passed both EIT and PE in one shot and holds masters degree from one of indias topmost school. I am seeking comity in another states and that state require CPEES evaluation. Interestingly, Ohio board allowed me to take PE without CPEES evaluation simply because I hold advanced degree from US university whose undergraduate program is ABET accredited.
> 
> I have absolutely no problem to evaluate my credential but arranging to send the transcripts and other information from University in India is asking for too much.
> ...


I say we sue them...I am serious, that's the only thing that I see changing thier attitutes..The whole thing is so flawed, they have no clue about how Universities in India or elsewhere around the world operate..Case in point, they need original Marksheets and Diploma send directly from my University in India..My University does not retain Marksheets and diploma, they are both handed to the canditate..CPEES refuses to accept these documents from me..My University refuses to send these documents to them, I was down there and spend good time and money trying to convience University officials to take my Marksheets from me, seal it in an envelop and let me ship it to CPEES, but they downright refused...now if CPEES would have done some research they would have already known that..Officials at CPEES don't have a clue of how different Universities and thier affiliated colleges work...They want me to get Syllabus and course descriptions send by my University to them..My university charged me a whopping 5 Rs per page to certify a photocopy of course description..trust me it adds up..If they are a professional orginisation as they claim to be they should have a central database of all course description of at least the major universities around the world..This rag-tag team of evaluators judges everything using a scewed american prism...I reckon these are grounds for a descrimination law suit and also Incompetence on thier part for not knowing how things work and having un-realistic expectations should be brought to light...Dont even get me started on the evaluators credentials..

I say we sue thier a**..Whose with me


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## Guest (Mar 12, 2008)

rohitss said:


> I reckon these are grounds for a descrimination law suit and also Incompetence on thier part for not knowing how things work and having un-realistic expectations should be brought to light...Dont even get me started on the evaluators credentials..


Before you begin to cry foul and descrimination be advised - there are many AMERICAN candidates that face similar frustrations in the application by exam and endorsement areas for licensure. States are required to administer the licensing requirements and these requirements DO vary from state-to-state. The variations don't necessarily maintain 'equivalency' with regard to education, experience, or licensure either.

Right now there is a member of this board that holds a P.E. license in four states but the state he started a new job in has denied his application because his degree doesn't match the description laid out in the state's licensing provision. In other words, he is licensed in four other states but this state doesn't want to recognize the endorsement based on a technicality.

I will agree that the licensing procedures are often times onerus and unfair to the potential candidates, but to call it discriminatory is ignorant. Please stick to the facts of the situation.



Coolguru said:


> Its very frustrating especially after passing the examination.


I hope your situation is resolved to your satisfaction. As I stated above, when you move between different state jurisdictions, you are subject to a different set of licensing criteria - often times you can find yourself stuck between a rock and a hard place. If you really feel that your credentials have not been given thier due, I recommend seeking legal counsel.

Best regards,

JR


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## Dark Knight (Mar 12, 2008)

As a "representative" of a minority group I can tell you this:

The rules are there, for americans, foreigners, hispanics, etc. You are the interested party so it is your duty to provide the info required. To cry "foul" without doing that is the easy, but not the right way.

When I applied for a license in another state, first I studied their requirements, and did my homework obtaining all the documents I knew they were going to ask for. Was it easy? Nope. It did not go without obstacles but when I put my application I had everything they needed. Took time and effort, yes, but I wanted the license so I complied with what was needed.

Sorry mate. I don't want to look mean but complaining, crying and threatening with legal action will not make your request easier. Do all you need to do first. It does not matter if you passed the EIT and the PE the same day in one hour or if you were born being a PE. Provide the documents you are asked to provide and the pieces will fall in place.


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## benbo (Mar 12, 2008)

I've got to admit it's a little ridiculous for a fellow with a PHD from an American university to have to have their undergrad evaluated ot this level. Especially when I know there are some very prestigious universities around the world - particularly in India.

But, I also have to agree with BIO and jr that you are probably not going to get anywhere suing them. I doubt any lawyer is going to take a case like that on contingency becuase nobody has an absolute RIGHT to a PE license. The state boards set the rules. Truthfully, I think a state board could say they didn't want anybody from a foreign university period and you wouldn't be able to win a lawsuit. Noy fair, and not likley to happen, but probably not illegal. The issue is not your race, it is where you went to school. So you'd be spenidng a bunch of money on a lawyer, which you could probably pay toward taking care of the problem.

As matter of fact, that's a good business - shepherding people through these evaluation processes. I'd be surprised if there weren't already companies that helped with that.


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## rohitss (Mar 13, 2008)

benbo said:


> I've got to admit it's a little ridiculous for a fellow with a PHD from an American university to have to have their undergrad evaluated ot this level. Especially when I know there are some very prestigious universities around the world - particularly in India.
> But, I also have to agree with BIO and jr that you are probably not going to get anywhere suing them. I doubt any lawyer is going to take a case like that on contingency becuase nobody has an absolute RIGHT to a PE license. The state boards set the rules. Truthfully, I think a state board could say they didn't want anybody from a foreign university period and you wouldn't be able to win a lawsuit. Noy fair, and not likley to happen, but probably not illegal. The issue is not your race, it is where you went to school. So you'd be spenidng a bunch of money on a lawyer, which you could probably pay toward taking care of the problem.
> 
> As matter of fact, that's a good business - shepherding people through these evaluation processes. I'd be surprised if there weren't already companies that helped with that.



I don't think I made myself clear enough in my last message..I was assuming people reading the thread have experience with CPEES evaluations and other similar evaluations required by some states..For example in the State of Alabama a foreign graduate can have his transcripts evaluated from either CPEES or AACRAO..CPEES requires all docs mailed by University..AACRAO requires photocopies mailed by the candidate..I think unless you have gone through the process of actually traveling 8000 miles back home to try and conveince University officials to comply with CPEES requirements you dont know the boat that sinks me..My arguement is that does any of CPEES staff know how Universities operate in my part of the world...If not they have no right to have un-realistic demands...Its ok to have standards but why conflicting standards...A evaluation should be of the same level..why is there such stark difference between CPEES and AACRAO (which has been in business longer)..I think its because they have done thier homework and CPEES has not..

I am ok with the onus being on me..But when you have tried everything and still cant meet what the CPEES states as bare minimum..there is either something wrong with you, the way your University operates or CPEES....The point raised earlier by a member was its descrimination against the place you graduated..well I dont think growing up in India I had an option of attending a ABET accredited school or would have envisoned the nightmare that has followed since...I think there are still grounds for a lawsuit..especial since CPEES deoes not have any know-how of how things work..the process is un-realistic

As for a lawsuit working..just compliants were enough to shut down ECEI..remember


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## benbo (Mar 13, 2008)

rohitss said:


> I don't think I made myself clear enough in my last message..I was assuming people reading the thread have experience with CPEES evaluations and other similar evaluations required by some states..For example in the State of Alabama a foreign graduate can have his transcripts evaluated from either CPEES or AACRAO..CPEES requires all docs mailed by University..AACRAO requires photocopies mailed by the candidate..I think unless you have gone through the process of actually traveling 8000 miles back home to try and conveince University officials to comply with CPEES requirements you dont know the boat that sinks me..My arguement is that does any of CPEES staff know how Universities operate in my part of the world...If not they have no right to have un-realistic demands...Its ok to have standards but why conflicting standards...A evaluation should be of the same level..why is there such stark difference between CPEES and AACRAO (which has been in business longer)..I think its because they have done thier homework and CPEES has not..
> I am ok with the onus being on me..But when you have tried everything and still cant meet what the CPEES states as bare minimum..there is either something wrong with you, the way your University operates or CPEES....The point raised earlier by a member was its descrimination against the place you graduated..well I dont think growing up in India I had an option of attending a ABET accredited school or would have envisoned the nightmare that has followed since...I think there are still grounds for a lawsuit..especial since CPEES deoes not have any know-how of how things work..the process is un-realistic
> 
> As for a lawsuit working..just compliants were enough to shut down ECEI..remember


Good luck with your lawsuit. Something tells me you won't be getting around to it.

So what if you shut someone down? I don't see how that helps you with getting your license.


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## rohitss (Mar 14, 2008)

benbo said:


> Good luck with your lawsuit. Something tells me you won't be getting around to it.So what if you shut someone down? I don't see how that helps you with getting your license.



That is why we have Courts..I dont see putting someone behind bars bringing a homecide victim back..Whats wrong is wrong and I sure as hell dont want others from my part of the World to go through the same BS that I did...You may be right I might not file a suit after all..But I dont see how you being cynical helps..Do you have any options I should consider??..Other than just waiting another 8 years to sit for the PE or moving to Alabama


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## Guest (Mar 14, 2008)

rohitss said:


> Do you have any options I should consider??..Other than just waiting another 8 years to sit for the PE or moving to Alabama


Good point - I wouldn't want to move to Alabama either ...

On a more serious note, I am not here to bust on you - my only real point was that you shouldn't call the process 'prejudicial' when that same process applies equally to all applicants regardless of your nation of origin. If you have read any of my other threads, you will know that I am very much in favor of streamlining the licensure process because it shouldn't be so difficult to apply and demonstrate competency.

The other person I referred to trying to obtain PE by comity already changed jobs, moved his family, and bought a new house on the premise that his application by endorsement should be readily granted. This new position is a senior-level position and requires professional certification - his whole world can potentially be turned upside down if his endorsement application is not granted upon appeal.

So, in closing, I agree with you that the process is unfair in many respects - there should be some standardization amongst the states. NCEES is the organization that is fostering that coordination but it is still lacking. I am also saying that by getting excited and saying this is a prejudicial act or that it is more burdensome for you than others ... maybe, maybe not. Each person has thier own road and trials.

Again, I say stick with the facts.

I wish you luck in a satisfactory resolution.

JR


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## rajivmatta (Mar 15, 2008)

jregieng said:


> Good point - I wouldn't want to move to Alabama either ...
> On a more serious note, I am not here to bust on you - my only real point was that you shouldn't call the process 'prejudicial' when that same process applies equally to all applicants regardless of your nation of origin. If you have read any of my other threads, you will know that I am very much in favor of streamlining the licensure process because it shouldn't be so difficult to apply and demonstrate competency.
> 
> The other person I referred to trying to obtain PE by comity already changed jobs, moved his family, and bought a new house on the premise that his application by endorsement should be readily granted. This new position is a senior-level position and requires professional certification - his whole world can potentially be turned upside down if his endorsement application is not granted upon appeal.
> ...


I have to agree with JR on this one. As someone who has gone through this process I know its really frustrating at times. You know I have had my transcripts evaluated 3 times now from 3 different places. State of South Carolina for my FE, TrustforTE for immigration and now CPEES for PE in TN. But the way I look at it is the system is in place to protect people. It is the states responsibility to ensure that Engineers operating in the state are qualified so as to not endager public safety. If this means applying strict standards for a unknown (foreign educated professionals) its a price worth paying.

Yes there are different standards for different states. You would be better off pleading your case with the State and showing them how it is different and perhaps easier in Bama to get licensure. But suing CPEES wont solve anything. Like JR pointed out they have the same standards for everyone..If you and me are having a harder time than someone from Eqypt than thats the fault of your University, maybe you should take them to court instead.

Again I am not here to merely discourage you, I do offer a solution. Every state board meets at least twice a year to review rules and regulations reagrding licensure. Bring your case up to such a panel, also if you can muster support from others in your state in a similar position take them with you. Any board will not deny a reasonable argument especially if it affects everyone from one particualar area. That is the best advice I can give you

BTW I am still waiting for my review results, I will keep you updated


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## da_engineer (Apr 4, 2008)

I went through a lot with both ECEI and later with CPEES. In 2002 my degree was fully accrediated, then I applied for both FE and PE and passed. In 2004 I needed some more copies of the evaluations, they said I need to pay another $375, being a good citizen, I did. Then they decided that my degree is not accrediated anymore. Fine whatever I am good citizen, I don't sue people. Then I decided to have NCEES records program so that I can move my license easier, guess what they said have it evaluated again. This time, they decided that all engineering course work is fine, but more humanities, of course being a good citizen, I didn't get angry or anything but found mistakes in their evaluation such as "surveying course" I took is under "other" not under "surveying" category. Again, being a good American who was unlucky enough to follow his fathers missions, I got another re-evaluation but this time I got another one that doesnt' match with previous ones.

So dear friends, sorry for my language but we are dealing with so much discremination, it is not even funny anymore. I am an American as it gets, we are all good people who studied MS, PHD in this country, passed the exams, work as an engineer sign off on projects for the good of the people that we love, and in return we get treated as second class citizens.

Anyways, sorry sometimes engineers need to vent too...


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## varkutio (Apr 4, 2008)

da_engineer said:


> I went through a lot with both ECEI and later with CPEES. In 2002 my degree was fully accrediated, then I applied for both FE and PE and passed. In 2004 I needed some more copies of the evaluations, they said I need to pay another $375, being a good citizen, I did. Then they decided that my degree is not accrediated anymore. Fine whatever I am good citizen, I don't sue people. Then I decided to have NCEES records program so that I can move my license easier, guess what they said have it evaluated again. This time, they decided that all engineering course work is fine, but more humanities, of course being a good citizen, I didn't get angry or anything but found mistakes in their evaluation such as "surveying course" I took is under "other" not under "surveying" category. Again, being a good American who was unlucky enough to follow his fathers missions, I got another re-evaluation but this time I got another one that doesnt' match with previous ones.
> So dear friends, sorry for my language but we are dealing with so much discremination, it is not even funny anymore. I am an American as it gets, we are all good people who studied MS, PHD in this country, passed the exams, work as an engineer sign off on projects for the good of the people that we love, and in return we get treated as second class citizens.
> 
> Anyways, sorry sometimes engineers need to vent too...


Gentlemen,

I have gone thru same rackless and irresponsible attitude of CPEES. I have graduate degree in structural engineering with 19 years of work experience (I do not have any North American degree). I passed my FE and PE in first attempt. CPEES tells me that I have certain credit defficiencies in Math and basic science and Humanities. I found the personnel working at CPEES below par in their qualifications (extremely dangerous). They even do not know which courses get grouped together. Nobody signs the evaluation (that shows how much confident they are). Unfortunately the state-Boards buy this piece of crap, which worth damn without evaluater's signature on it. New Jersey Board no longer use CPEES (recently they dropped CPEES because of inconsistant eveluation)

Well, folks, we all need to educate the state boards and NCEES regarding the CPEES' modes operandi in evaluating foreign degrees.

We need to convince the state boards that accepting the conclusion of the irresponsible evaluation by CPEES is unfair to the professional careers of those candidated who have earned foreign under grad degrees.


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## IlPadrino (Apr 4, 2008)

da_engineer said:


> So dear friends, sorry for my language but we are dealing with so much discremination, it is not even funny anymore. I am an American as it gets, we are all good people who studied MS, PHD in this country, passed the exams, work as an engineer sign off on projects for the good of the people that we love, and in return we get treated as second class citizens.
> Anyways, sorry sometimes engineers need to vent too...


Agreed that the process is flawed, but it doesn't help your case to decry "discrimination" when, in fact, you are not being treated differently by CPEES than any other applicant. If you read Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 you'll find reference to national origin discrimination for employment, but it doesn't address the issue of different application processes for licensure by state boards.

All this talk of lawsuits... I ask only this: What law is being violated?

For good or bad, there is too much bureaucracy at the State Boards... the only solution is a federal licensing organization - and that just doesn't seem likely to happen.

Be like the willow tree... bend but don't break. Perseverance will be rewarded!


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## rohitss (Apr 7, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Agreed that the process is flawed, but it doesn't help your case to decry "discrimination" when, in fact, you are not being treated differently by CPEES than any other applicant. If you read Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 you'll find reference to national origin discrimination for employment, but it doesn't address the issue of different application processes for licensure by state boards.
> All this talk of lawsuits... I ask only this: What law is being violated?
> 
> For good or bad, there is too much bureaucracy at the State Boards... the only solution is a federal licensing organization - and that just doesn't seem likely to happen.
> ...




Be like the willow tree... bend but don't break. Perseverance will be rewarded!....I guess you are right, we will all be licensed after 15 years of Engineering experience anyway right..I don't think IlPadrino understands how detrimental not having a PE can be to your life, your goals and your carrer..how oppurtunities pass you by just because of some sensless inconsistent regulation....You get shafted on projects, promotions, managerial and leadership oppurtunites just for not having a PE....As everyone who has gone through or is going through the process will tell you CPEES can suck the life right out of you...

Lets not decry "Discrimination" lets decry "Incompetence"..They do not have a clue about what thy are doing..Why is it that the same organization can come back with two seperate assesments for the same credentials..I will tell you..it depends on who you get as your evaluator..Mine is right now out of the Country..I guess he/she is on a spring break of sorts..mean while the deadline for PE Applications loom in the background..These evaluators are not engineers and if you have a phd in humanities obviously you will find others lacking sufficient coursework in humanities..hell how the hell does humanites or any of the other crap help me design a bridge..how is that a safety concern to the state..Whats next I am deficient in American history..becuase without that I wont know what the Manning's equation is right

The whole scene is littered with double standards and inconsitency..not to mention it should be illegal for states to give a monopoly to cpees to be the sole conductors of credential review (Alabama and North Carolina have multiple agencies)..I agree we have to bring this to the state boards attention..I am attending the next hearing...A law suit is not off the cards entirely....I am waiting for my evaluator to come back from his/her sweet vaction and see how many more times he wants to me to travel 8000 miles and get him more proof that I actually am and engineer..


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## Guest (Apr 7, 2008)

rohitss said:


> The whole scene is littered with double standards and inconsitency..not to mention it should be illegal for states to give a monopoly to cpees to be the sole conductors of credential review (Alabama and North Carolina have multiple agencies)


Every state board has acquiesced (given a monopoly) to NCEES to develop and grade the FE and PE examinations. Do you believe that is illegal as well? If so, you are going to be running into quite a few legalities on your quest for licensure.

It is best not to tilt at windmills and keep your eye on the prize - licensure. I have no problem with pointing out the inherent problems in the system and working in the system - in fact I encourage it. When you begin to call it a case of prejudice or suggest the state has abdicated its' authority to administer and regulate professional licensure, I think you are treading on thin ice. As you push that notion you will end up falling into the deep end and will lose the prize.

:2cents:

JR


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## rohitss (Apr 7, 2008)

jregieng said:


> Every state board has acquiesced (given a monopoly) to NCEES to develop and grade the FE and PE examinations. Do you believe that is illegal as well? If so, you are going to be running into quite a few legalities on your quest for licensure.
> It is best not to tilt at windmills and keep your eye on the prize - licensure. I have no problem with pointing out the inherent problems in the system and working in the system - in fact I encourage it. When you begin to call it a case of prejudice or suggest the state has abdicated its' authority to administer and regulate professional licensure, I think you are treading on thin ice. As you push that notion you will end up falling into the deep end and will lose the prize.
> 
> :2cents:
> ...



Its like comparing apples and oranges or banana's and rocks.....Its like me arguing against a telecom monopoly and you calling the fed a monopoly..All standardize exam whether it be the GMAT,GRE,SAT or FE/PE are always administered by a single agency...thats why they are called u guessed it standarized...I do not consider that a monopoly..however I may consider it unfair if some states were to offer a test that was easier than that conducted by NCEEES...just like I would consider the offering of mutliple evaluation agencies in some states and a virtual monopoly for cpees in others as unfair...

If you encourage people to point out flaws in the system you should be loving this....Let me ask you one simple question...Are you in favor of all states adopting the Alabama model (competetion which will lead to effeciency) or are you just in favor of whatever the board decides....


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## IlPadrino (Apr 7, 2008)

rohitss said:


> Lets not decry "Discrimination" lets decry "Incompetence"..They do not have a clue about what thy are doing..


OK... I'm sure you'll get lots of agreement on that statement. Some State boards certainly perform poorly (if only on occasion). But why won't you answer my question? I'll repeat it here:

What law is being violated?

You can't have a reasonable lawsuit if you can't tell me what law is being broken. 'Cause otherwise, you're just unhappy with the law and you might better focus your attention on changing the law. And that's almost certainly a futile endeavor unless you have some connections with members of your State Board.



rohitss said:


> Its like comparing apples and oranges or banana's and rocks.....Its like me arguing against a telecom monopoly and you calling the fed a monopoly..All standardize exam whether it be the GMAT,GRE,SAT or FE/PE are always administered by a single agency...thats why they are called u guessed it standarized...I do not consider that a monopoly..however I may consider it unfair if some states were to offer a test that was easier than that conducted by NCEEES...just like I would consider the offering of mutliple evaluation agencies in some states and a virtual monopoly for cpees in others as unfair...
> If you encourage people to point out flaws in the system you should be loving this....Let me ask you one simple question...Are you in favor of all states adopting the Alabama model (competetion which will lead to effeciency) or are you just in favor of whatever the board decides....


I'm starting to think you don't understand the role of the States in the U.S. Professional licensure has (and will likely continue to be for the rest of our lifetimes) always been a State function. Each State is *REQUIRED* to adopt its own law, even if it choses to use a model law. A single testing board makes a lot of sense (especially as it supports comity) but there are lots of differences between States and that's as it should be. Thought as I've admitted before, give me a few beers and I sometimes can be convinced there's merit to a national licensure process.

Let me ask you one more question: What are your thoughts about Georgia adding five points to every military examinee (which means the cut-score is probably 65 instead of 70)?

Please don't think I'm insensitive to your difficulties. It's just that lots of people have them and very few come off as being entitled to better, decry discrimination, or threaten lawsuits. I wish you all the luck in getting your degree accredited!


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## rohitss (Apr 8, 2008)

"What law is being violated? "

Could not find one. I looked, asked around but you are right..as long as its the same rule for all foriegn graduates a lawsuit will be thrown out

"Let me ask you one more question: What are your thoughts about Georgia adding five points to every military examinee (which means the cut-score is probably 65 instead of 70)?"

I think its unfair..If passing the PE is one of the key parameters to licensure and the State has decided to lower the standards for some..how can they gruantee the safety of the citizens these below par Engineers are meant to serve....

"Please don't think I'm insensitive to your difficulties. It's just that lots of people have them and very few come off as being entitled to better, decry discrimination, or threaten lawsuits. I wish you all the luck in getting your degree accredited!"

Please do not think of me as someone who just wants to b*tch about something..there is a real problem here I am not the only one facing this situation....

http://www.mitbbs.com/article_t/CivilEngin...g/28261434.html

I still thing there has to be something I/we can do to get the board to open up to the idea of more evaluation agencies or just drop these senseless regulations...at least for people who have earned a higher degree in the U.S...


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## benbo (Apr 8, 2008)

First, let me say that I feel sorry for you guys, these rules do seem a little stupid, and this CPEES company does seem a little incompetent from what I read here. I understand the frustration.

That said, I am curious what country you fellows come from where the first inclination is to sue if you don't like a rule? I thought that was a strictly US predilection. THe truth is, there is no right to a PE, these states can make whatever rule they want. If they want 4 years study of Grecian Art they can ask for it.

As IlPadrino intimated, there are only a few protected classes under US law and foreign born engineers aren't one of them.

When I was working for a US company in the Philippines I decided to look at some want ads,just to see what they looked like. Half the ads had maximum age limits, and the age was something like 40 years old. Now that may be something they look at in the US, but they don't blatantly put age limits in ads. So every place has it's own rules. You can either live with them, try to change them through lobbying and legislation, or move on.


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## IlPadrino (Apr 8, 2008)

rohitss said:


> "Let me ask you one more question: What are your thoughts about Georgia adding five points to every military examinee (which means the cut-score is probably 65 instead of 70)?"
> I think its unfair..If passing the PE is one of the key parameters to licensure and the State has decided to lower the standards for some..how can they gruantee the safety of the citizens these below par Engineers are meant to serve....


Interesting... to me it's the difference between equal and sameness. Someone, somewhere, decided military experience adds to the equalness (even though not the sameness). Your complaint seems to be similar in that your unhappy with the equalness because, clearly, the sameness doesn't apply.

DISCLAIMER: Please, let's not talk about racial equality!


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## IlPadrino (Apr 8, 2008)

rohitss said:


> I still thing there has to be something I/we can do to get the board to open up to the idea of more evaluation agencies or just drop these senseless regulations...at least for people who have earned a higher degree in the U.S...


No arguments from me... assuming the higher degree is in the engineering field. I'd be happy to sign a petition if you think it'd help!


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## Dleg (Apr 8, 2008)

I had no idea any state was offering a break on the exam scores for military examinees. I disagree with that 100%. I would, however, be supportive of a 6 month to 1 year break on the experience required to become licensed, under the assumption that typical miltary duty crams a lot more experience into a shorter period of time. But I think it is wrong to give a break on the exam scores.

As far as the CPEES goes, I know nothing about them, and after reading ths thread, I agree that there seems to be a lot of issues with the consistency of their review process and, perhaps, the qualifications of their reviewers.

However, having worked around a lot of foreign engineers, and in the process having run into more than a few who claimed to be "engineers," but later turned out to be graduates of 2-year engineering technology or drafting programs instead, or no degrees at all (more than one guy has admitted this to me after being unable to even perform simple division and multiplication on a calculator), I can see the value in scrutinizing foreign credentials. Of course, the egregious cases I mention came from just two countries, primarily, and there are other countries whos graduates are much less in need of such careful scrutinization.

Seriously, you just have to face the fact that there is a lot of fraud out there, a lot of diploma mills, document forgeries, etc., all related to foreign-obtained educational and professional credentials. It sucks that the vast majority of foreign-educated engineers are fully qualified and have to be subjected to this, but I don't see much of an alternative, aside from improving the consistency of the process and the qualifications of the reviewers, which I am sure is related directly to how much you pay for the services.


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## IlPadrino (Apr 9, 2008)

Dleg said:


> I had no idea any state was offering a break on the exam scores for military examinees. I disagree with that 100%. I would, however, be supportive of a 6 month to 1 year break on the experience required to become licensed, under the assumption that typical miltary duty crams a lot more experience into a shorter period of time. But I think it is wrong to give a break on the exam scores.


You can read about it here. I don't pretend to see any logic to it, other than to recognize competence is a complicated equation (though certainly a function of education, experience, and examination).


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## Dleg (Apr 9, 2008)

I thought about the break on exam scores for military members some more, and I am even more opposed to it. If I were a military member I would be offended, and also a bit worried, since I would never know if I passed on my own merits, or if I passed only because of the lowered cut. And what does that say about the Board's attitude toward the military examinees and the concept of the PE exam itself? If the purpose of the exam is to establish a person's knowledge and competence against a score considered to be the "minimum" necessary to be a PE, then aren't they saying that that same level of competence and knowledge is not necessary if you're in the military?

Anyway, that's not the subject of this thread. Sorry for adding to hijack.


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## Dleg (Apr 9, 2008)

rohitss said:


> "What law is being violated? "
> Could not find one. I looked, asked around but you are right..as long as its the same rule for all foriegn graduates a lawsuit will be thrown out


Not necessarily. The fact (?) that CPEES has ruled differently on reviews of the same credentials for the same person raises the possibility that their enforcement of their own procedures and the law(?) is "arbitrary and capricious". If your lawyer can convince a judge or jury of that, then you could win in a lawsuit against them. Just keep in mind that case law typically favors the agency's interpretation of their procedures, and government is not "estopped" - in other words, government is not bound by prior determinations that your records were OK - they can turn around and later say that your record is deficient, as long as their determinaiton is based on something they have found that was not noticed in their first review. But then again, CPEES isn't a government agency, and probably is not given the same deference by the courts.

(I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice, just suggestions based on my experience in numerous civil cases related to government regulatory programs)


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## IlPadrino (Apr 9, 2008)

Dleg said:


> Not necessarily. The fact (?) that CPEES has ruled differently on reviews of the same credentials for the same person raises the possibility that their enforcement of their own procedures and the law(?) is "arbitrary and capricious".


I don't follow... how can the rule differently on the same credentials for the same person?


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## IlPadrino (Apr 9, 2008)

Dleg said:


> I thought about the break on exam scores for military members some more, and I am even more opposed to it. If I were a military member I would be offended, and also a bit worried, since I would never know if I passed on my own merits, or if I passed only because of the lowered cut. And what does that say about the Board's attitude toward the military examinees and the concept of the PE exam itself? If the purpose of the exam is to establish a person's knowledge and competence against a score considered to be the "minimum" necessary to be a PE, then aren't they saying that that same level of competence and knowledge is not necessary if you're in the military?
> Anyway, that's not the subject of this thread. Sorry for adding to hijack.


I don't know how I feel... I'd be curious to learn the reason behind the law.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> I don't follow... how can the rule differently on the same credentials for the same person?


Based on one of the guys' posts above, (maybe more than one), CPEES previously evaluated his BS degree and determined it to be adequate for the purposes of applying for the FE exam. Then later, when he (or they) applied to take the PE, CPEES ruled that the same BS degree was not adequate. That, to me, stands out as a potentially "arbitrary and capricious" judgment.


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## Twofrogs (Apr 10, 2008)

This is a very interesting topic. I didn't realize there was such a disparity for evaluations provided by NCEES, as mentioned within this post. I definitely wish the *best of luck* for anyone from a foreign background who has to endure through such an evaluation process. By all means I agree there should be a method in place which is predictable, with no surprises. Please perservere! Presenting a defensible case to the state board seems to be the best option presented thus far.

Here's where I kindly disagree - The conditions set forth by NCEES for transcripts seems valid; transcripts at schools here in the US are generally available, even to the grade school level and I also firmly believe conditions that necessitate coursework in the humanities is definitely justified. As engineers, we are not bound solely to numbers. The development of a project has the potential to include written specifications, written actions, scope of work, contracts, interface to the public .... etc. It is imperative to have the ability to accomplish these types of non-numerical tasks. An inadequate phrase or incorrectly used word has the potential to cost many dollars or worse ..public safety in a whole slew of different ways.

By humanities - I am referring to philosophy, literature, oral communication, technical writing.


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## IlPadrino (Apr 10, 2008)

Dleg said:


> Based on one of the guys' posts above, (maybe more than one), CPEES previously evaluated his BS degree and determined it to be adequate for the purposes of applying for the FE exam. Then later, when he (or they) applied to take the PE, CPEES ruled that the same BS degree was not adequate. That, to me, stands out as a potentially "arbitrary and capricious" judgment.


I reread the posts and didn't see this... what I understand to be the problem for the OP is that when he applied for the FE, CPEES wasn't around and his degree was considered sufficient (presumably by the predecessor of CPEES in that State). When he applied for the PE, he had to have his degree accredited by CPEES and has had no joy, especially with the bureaucracy of getting his transcripts delivered in the prescribed manner.

And the biggest complaint seems to be that not all States use CPEES... and I can't imagine any legal reason why that's wrong.


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## IlPadrino (Apr 10, 2008)

Twofrogs said:


> As engineers, we are not bound solely to numbers.


That's a great point. Communication is often as important (and sometimes more so!) as technical understanding. After all, the output of the engineer is almost always used by someone else - and if it's not properly communicated all the correct equations are worthless.


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## benbo (Apr 10, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> I reread the posts and didn't see this... what I understand to be the problem for the OP is that when he applied for the FE, CPEES wasn't around and his degree was considered sufficient (presumably by the predecessor of CPEES in that State). When he applied for the PE, he had to have his degree accredited by CPEES and has had no joy, especially with the bureaucracy of getting his transcripts delivered in the prescribed manner.
> And the biggest complaint seems to be that not all States use CPEES... and I can't imagine any legal reason why that's wrong.


I didn't 100% understand what happened with these fellows. It seems like the major problem happened when they wanted to move their PE to another state. And once again, the individual states can set any evaluation requirements they want. One state does not have to accept a degree just because another state accepted it. So whether it is CPEES or the states or whatever is unclear to me. What I am basically 100% sure of is that none of these people are going to be able to find a lawyer to take this case on a contingency basis. I guess anybody can file a lawsuit and pay for it, but we are only hearing one side of the story here. I'm not holding my breath to read about a successful lawsuit here.


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## benbo (Apr 10, 2008)

I just thought - if the process legally has to be identical from state to state, and from year to year, then there are a lot more lawsuits out there. How come I had to wait until late January to get my results in Cal when other people had them in early December? That cost me real money. How come some states people can bring in some references and other states you can't? How come the exact same calculators cannot be used now that could be used in 2000? How come civils have to take two extra tests in California?

Over time, a state may change the way it requires a degree to be evaluated. They may require certain proof in 2002, then discover that is not sufficient and direct CPEES to require more proof in 2008. Similarly, New York may want more proof that a degree is similar ot ABET than Alabama. It seems that all this is perfectly legal. If you want to make it uniform, pass a federal law. Also, as far as qualifications of the advisors - once again, a person is qualified as an advisor if a State board says they are. THat's it.

But it would be interesting to see what would happen in a lawsuit that presented both sides. We are only reading one side here. Like the perenniel complaints about the exam results wait time, I suspect that will never happen.


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## Vishal (Apr 10, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> That's a great point. Communication is often as important (and sometimes more so!) as technical understanding. After all, the output of the engineer is almost always used by someone else - and if it's not properly communicated all the correct equations are worthless.


i agree communication is important but 16 credits of social sciences and humanities for a candidate who has a BS degree in engineering (from a foreign country which exceeds the minimum required engineering credits by more than 30) and a MS degree from the university in the US (whose bachelors program is ABET accredited) is way too ridiculuous...... the courses are american history, psychology, micro and macro economics... and all that..to top this the applicant is also required to take 6 credits of Basic math and science. A professional engineer with MS degree from US needs to prove his sufficiency in basic math (Calculus) and Science(physics, chem, etc..)!!!! wat do u have to say about that? not that the applicant has skipped the course, but in the foreign country these basic math and science courses are taught during the high school years, and since the high school credits dont count towards evaluation it is not counted at all!!!!!

the candidate in question is me. I hold a BS in civil engg from India and a MS from U of Florida... what is more boggling is while accepting me for my MS degree this public school accepted my BS to be equivalent and offered me an admission to their MS program... yes, this is the same instituition whose BS program is ABET accredited.. so after UF awards me a MS in civil engineering, I am being told by the board (florida board) that the public school MS and all that is fine and dandy but your BS isn't good!!! i am sorry sir, but didn't your state's public school whose BS is accredited just awarded me a MS??? now take this, if my MS was ABET accredited then i would have been good!! as far as i know there are only 2 schools in US whose MS is accredited, one of them is U of Louisville. A coworker has his MS from UL and had no trouble getting PE in FL....

we do have 6 credits of communication skills courses during our bachelors, plus we submit master's report/thesis too.. shouldnt that count towards my engineering reporting skills?

well, i disagree about the lawsuit and all, but there is a potential here... however, i dont want to even think of that route. for me, i took my PE exam from Texas since they don't require any bullshit if i have MS from a US university whose BS is accredited... so i got the exam out of my way and now i am fighting the battle... just wanted to make all u guys aware so this long explanation.... in my personal opinion, the individuals having their MS from a US univ should not be given this hard time...

PS: just recently i found that, if i have 2 years of continuous licensure in another state (texas in my state) then Florida board will waive the requirement of 16 credits of humanities and social sciences!!! i wonder what will those 2 years do that my 4 years of BS, 2 years of MS and 4 years of experience did not do???? anyway, 2 years is a long time, it means late promotion, bonus, etc.. but the cost of taking 16 credits of trash courses is a lot compared to my work schedule and the bonus i may expect... additionally, its gonna take me a year plus to finish the courses so why not wait 6 extra months and just get it waived.

i still can't stop smiling about having to prove my basic math ability after two engineering degrees and a PE license!!!!


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## benbo (Apr 10, 2008)

I look forward to reading the transcripts of these lawsuits as they wind their way through the legal system. I'm certain everyone will post their triumphant legal actions here.

By the way, I just went through an estate processing, and lawyers bill around $300/hour or more.


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## PinoyCE (Apr 14, 2008)

I think that the main purpose of the EIT and PE examinations is to know if the person has the MINIMUM engineering knowledge for the safety of the public. Now, if the engineer had already passed this evaluating test, don't you think its discrimination just because the engineer didn't had his BS in the Country he is applying for? For people who's job is to test the professionalism of individuals, are they practicing what they are preaching? Or is it just fault of slacking on the job?

Anyway, I strongly agree that it is unfavorable. Would they rather see people with knowledge and skills go to waste?


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## IlPadrino (Apr 15, 2008)

PinoyCE said:


> I think that the main purpose of the EIT and PE examinations is to know if the person has the MINIMUM engineering knowledge for the safety of the public. Now, if the engineer had already passed this evaluating test, don't you think its discrimination just because the engineer didn't had his BS in the Country he is applying for? For people who's job is to test the professionalism of individuals, are they practicing what they are preaching? Or is it just fault of slacking on the job?
> Anyway, I strongly agree that it is unfavorable. Would they rather see people with knowledge and skills go to waste?


If you read the NCEES newsletters you'll see there's a bit more to the equation (prestige has been mentioned at least once), but for the sake of discussion let's keep to "knowledge" and add "wisdom" (which is one order higher than knowledge). State boards use three factors to determine knowledge/wisdom: education, experience, and examination. You can't forgo education and experience just because you can pass an exam. Accreditation is essential to reasonably assessing education - for those that don't have a properly accredited degree, there's an alternative even if it's not as reasonable as it should be.


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## Vishal (Apr 15, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> If you read the NCEES newsletters you'll see there's a bit more to the equation (prestige has been mentioned at least once), but for the sake of discussion let's keep to "knowledge" and add "wisdom" (which is one order higher than knowledge). State boards use three factors to determine knowledge/wisdom: education, experience, and examination. You can't forgo education and experience just because you can pass an exam. Accreditation is essential to reasonably assessing education - for those that don't have a properly accredited degree, there's an alternative even if it's not as reasonable as it should be.


Accredition of degree to what extent? I am being asked to prove my basic math and sciences skills after a MS degree from a US university who has accepted my BS. Heck even on EI exam you have tons of math and science can't that be ued as enough indicator of my math and science knowledge or I should go back and take high school level courses after a masters degree in engineering. And what's up with humanities and social sciences (H&amp;SS)? Just because I don't have the exact same credit hours in H&amp;SS means that my "knowledge" is flawed to an extent that even my 4+ years of engineering experience coupled with an advance degree can't fulfil it ? I agree that the test is just "one of the criterion" to be a licensed engineer and others being education and experience.

It is just sometimes frustrating to be told that your BS degree is insufficient in areas like basic math, science and H&amp;SS even with 4.5 years of professional experience and a Master's degree in engineering from a public school; and all this when your engineering credits in BS are 30 more than required for equivalency.

Just a thought...


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## IlPadrino (Apr 15, 2008)

Vish said:


> Accredition of degree to what extent? I am being asked to prove my basic math and sciences skills after a MS degree from a US university who has accepted my BS. Heck even on EI exam you have tons of math and ..
> 
> .
> 
> ...


Vish,

Please understand I'm just defending the process as being entirely consistent. There are those here that would have me believe they're being treated unfairly. For me, "fair" means free from favoritism or bias or impartial. Like it or not, the State board has chosen accredited BS as the requirement, not accredited MS. I know it's insulting but I still think it's fair. You're being treated like any person who doesn't have an accredited degree.

Regarding Humanities and Social Science requirements, I think this is a valid requirement for engineers...

Is the horse dead yet?


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## Vishal (Apr 15, 2008)

^^ probably, being on the other side of the fence make the requirement "valid". Try being on the other side.. oh wel, this will never end....

The one thing I just fail to understand is if a person knows how to form a sentence why ask him to prove if he knows the aplphabets? It is common sense, if you are in high school doesn't that mean that you have passed the middle school??


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## IlPadrino (Apr 15, 2008)

Vish said:


> ^^ probably, being on the other side of the fence make the requirement "valid". Try being on the other side.. oh wel, this will never end....
> The one thing I just fail to understand is if a person knows how to form a sentence why ask him to prove if he knows the aplphabets? It is common sense, if you are in high school doesn't that mean that you have passed the middle school??


I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate. Do you think State boards should say Humanities and Social Sciences are totally unimportant to the Engineer?

Here's a succinct answer to what I think is really the question in your last paragraph... The MS curriculum is very different from the BS curriculum. Just because you have succeeded in an MS program doesn't mean you have a mastery of the BS program material. If you disagree with this, please show me a Venn Diagram of the BS and MS material of your specific specialty and then let's discuss further. My experience is the BS is an inch deep and a mile wide while the MS is a mile deep and an inch wide.

I think the mistake you're making is comparing your specific case to the general population. I trust you're more than qualified in the education department - but that's doesn't make it so everywhere else.


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## Vishal (Apr 16, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> I'm not sure what you're trying to communicate. Do you think State boards should say Humanities and Social Sciences are totally unimportant to the Engineer?
> Here's a succinct answer to what I think is really the question in your last paragraph... The MS curriculum is very different from the BS curriculum. Just because you have succeeded in an MS program doesn't mean you have a mastery of the BS program material. If you disagree with this, please show me a Venn Diagram of the BS and MS material of your specific specialty and then let's discuss further. My experience is the BS is an inch deep and a mile wide while the MS is a mile deep and an inch wide.
> 
> I think the mistake you're making is comparing your specific case to the general population. I trust you're more than qualified in the education department - but that's doesn't make it so everywhere else.


You missed the point completely here. How can you judge my Masters without accepting the fact that I have passed my Bachelor's degree competently? A person can not go to MS without fulfilling the requirement of a BS degree, you are asking of treating them mutually exclusive. If a school that is accredited tells that the person applying for MS has his BS degree equivalent then how can some independent reviewers (who don't even hold an engineering degree) deny that? The school has qualified teachers, administrators, and above all accredition.


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## IlPadrino (Apr 16, 2008)

Vish said:


> You missed the point completely here. How can you judge my Masters without accepting the fact that I have passed my Bachelor's degree competently? A person can not go to MS without fulfilling the requirement of a BS degree, you are asking of treating them mutually exclusive. If a school that is accredited tells that the person applying for MS has his BS degree equivalent then how can some independent reviewers (who don't even hold an engineering degree) deny that? The school has qualified teachers, administrators, and above all accredition.


I don't think I missed the point... perhaps I'm just not explaining it right.

Here's what I think you're saying: If you've got an MS from a BS accredited school you shouldn't need an accredited BS.

Here's what I'm trying to say: Just because you got accepted into a MS program at a school with an accredited BS doesn't make your BS education accredited. To me this is obvious. There's not a school out there that can "accredit" another BS. They can only provide you with an accredited MS.

To answer your questions specifically: We're talking accreditation, not competence. And still, it is entirely possible (and I've seen it happen!) that a student accepted into an MS program is not competent at the BS level. A person *CAN* go to an MS without fulfilling the requirements of an accredited BS. CPEES is not judging the MS - it's only judging the BS - and they may say it's not equivalent to an accredited program - even if the person has an accredited MS.

Maybe I should break this down into a syllogism.


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## Coolguru (May 12, 2008)

rohitss said:


> I don't think I made myself clear enough in my last message..I was assuming people reading the thread have experience with CPEES evaluations and other similar evaluations required by some states..For example in the State of Alabama a foreign graduate can have his transcripts evaluated from either CPEES or AACRAO..CPEES requires all docs mailed by University..AACRAO requires photocopies mailed by the candidate..I think unless you have gone through the process of actually traveling 8000 miles back home to try and conveince University officials to comply with CPEES requirements you dont know the boat that sinks me..My arguement is that does any of CPEES staff know how Universities operate in my part of the world...If not they have no right to have un-realistic demands...Its ok to have standards but why conflicting standards...A evaluation should be of the same level..why is there such stark difference between CPEES and AACRAO (which has been in business longer)..I think its because they have done thier homework and CPEES has not..
> I am ok with the onus being on me..But when you have tried everything and still cant meet what the CPEES states as bare minimum..there is either something wrong with you, the way your University operates or CPEES....The point raised earlier by a member was its descrimination against the place you graduated..well I dont think growing up in India I had an option of attending a ABET accredited school or would have envisoned the nightmare that has followed since...I think there are still grounds for a lawsuit..especial since CPEES deoes not have any know-how of how things work..the process is un-realistic
> 
> As for a lawsuit working..just compliants were enough to shut down ECEI..remember


Well, I tried to establish NCEES record to bypass the CPEES, know what? I am exhausted. Even the NCEES record needs transcripts from India. But one good things NCEES accepts any other evaluations besides CPEES. The point is ECE evaluation costs only $135. However, that did not solve my problem because the State board still want CPEES evaluation. I argued with them:

1. I have an advanced degree from the State's one of the most prestigious technological university. They dont give a damn about.

2. They dont give a damn about NCEES record

3. They dont care about ECE evaluation.

This is fact!

My understanding is that they have raised CPEES to the status of God whose blessing is essential on top of everything. My question to you all: HAS ANYONE EXPLORED WHO ARE THE EVALUATORS AT CPEES? You will be surprised to learn that none of them (except the Director) has an advanced degree such as Ph.D, none of them are either P.E. or EIT. All of them have degrees in most esoteric and obscure subjects. My opionion is that they will understand the difference between stress and strain forget the whole gamut of engineering. These people are made responsible for engineerig document evaluation. The fact is when we enrolled at American University, the Ph.D. professors have better understanding wheter our transcripts were flawed/substandard or do not meet the engineering quality. I am open to challenge by even an MIT Professor to evaluate my document, btu CPEES? Its an insult to my education.


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## wilheldp_PE (May 12, 2008)

You know, I somewhat agree with your argument against the CPEES, but I really don't think that this fight is worth your time. If, at the beginning of this whole saga, you had bit the bullet, and resigned yourself to the fact that you MUST obtain a transcript from your undergraduate program in India, you would already be done by now. It may be a royal pain in the ass to get your transcript from India, but look at the amount of work you have already put yourself through just to avoid that one task...and you STILL have to get the transcript. My suggestion to you, before you go on another wild goose chase, is to go ahead and play by the rules today, then tomorrow you can fight the system.


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## jaxengr (May 12, 2008)

Here are my 2 cents on the issue....

Argument A: If a person has an advanced degree from a US university, it can be considered that his/her BS was good enough for admission to MS and hence good enough for FE/PE

Argument B: I will buy argument A for Engineering/Math/Science, but not for humanities and social science and you have to be competent in those subjects to become a PE.

Argument C: *IF* and only if argument B is true, then why not test an individual's competence in humanities and social science in the PE exam? Just like California has an extra exam (Seismic?), states which insist that humanities are very important for becoming a PE can have an extra exam for humanities. Those who have completed BS in USA should not find it difficult, and those who have foreign degree, have an oppurtunity to show they have required knowledge.


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## IlPadrino (May 13, 2008)

jaxengr said:


> Here are my 2 cents on the issue....
> Argument A: If a person has an advanced degree from a US university, it can be considered that his/her BS was good enough for admission to MS and hence good enough for FE/PE
> 
> Argument B: I will buy argument A for Engineering/Math/Science, but not for humanities and social science and you have to be competent in those subjects to become a PE.
> ...


Regarding Argument A, "good enough" does not equal "accredited"... and that's assuming I'd agree with "good enough" (which I don't - I think it's silly considering the difference in undergraduate and graduate education).


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## kevo_55 (May 13, 2008)

I know that I'm going to get tore up on this but it must be said....

Having a PhD doesn't make you a better or worse engineer. I must stress this because I'm reading some "better than thou" attitude from a few people in this thread.

That being said, you ALWAYS must play by the state board's rules. For example, lets say you have a California Structural license and will be doing some structural work in Minnesota. Of course, a CA SE seal is harder to get than a MN PE seal. Let's say that you do not hold a MN seal but simply sign and seal the drawings and calculations for this MN job with your CA SE seal. Would the California seal be accepted in Minnesota? No, it would not. Even if you must take more exams and jump through more hoops in order to get a CA SE, you must still play by the MN board's rules and get a MN seal.

I really see no diffrence between having an "advanced" seal and having an "advanced" degree in this situation. You'll get beat down just the same. I'd just bite the bullet and play the game that CPEES is having you do.

Ok, let the $hit fly.


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## Guest (May 13, 2008)

kevo_55 said:


> Ok, let the $hit fly.









JR


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## rdbse (May 13, 2008)

I would suggest for engineers with foriegn degrees to work on changing the university where you recieved your undergraduate degree. I don't understand why the major complaint is towards the evaluator (CPEES) and not more towards the university.

With more foreign graduate engineers moving to the US, it would seem that more people are having the same proplems with proper transcipts. Alumni should pull their weight and demand that the universities change their system.


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## Coolguru (Sep 25, 2008)

jaxengr said:


> Here are my 2 cents on the issue....
> Argument A: If a person has an advanced degree from a US university, it can be considered that his/her BS was good enough for admission to MS and hence good enough for FE/PE
> 
> Argument B: I will buy argument A for Engineering/Math/Science, but not for humanities and social science and you have to be competent in those subjects to become a PE.
> ...


You are genius! I like the way you made this argument. Let me put the record straight! I passed PE in Dec. 2007 (Oct. Exam), since then I am trying to get my reciprocity. My promotion is put on hold. My board is aware that my evalution will be unfavorable and they will still allow me to get reciprocity, but since it is a rule that CPEES evaluation is required there is no way they can waive that requirement. Ironically/interestingly NCEES does accepts ECE evaluation besides CPEES. I got my evaluation from ECE with my BS equivalent to US ABET accredited degree with 3.02GPA. I dont know how long it will be for CPEES to evaluate my document, I am still waiting!

Any thoughts!


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## benbo (Sep 25, 2008)

Why is this still an issue? Didn't you win the lawsuit you were filing?


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## kobegasol (Oct 16, 2008)

to all those who go a deficiency abet evaluation from either ecei or cpees,

What solution did you take? I have a deficiency of 12 units for math and science from my ECEI evaluation but what are the next steps?

Does any abet accredited school here accept those evaluations so that I will just try to convert my degree to any US university degree???


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## IlPadrino (Oct 17, 2008)

Coolguru said:


> You are genius!


See... your standards *are* lower than those we ABET-accredited graduates hold. If this is genius, I'd hate to see "minimally competent".


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## lzh007 (Mar 30, 2009)

I would like to get evaluation thru CPEES despite any result. Could any any one give me a detailed list of the document CPEES requires for a foreign degree? I need to arrange my trip to prepare my document within 3 months after application.


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