# CA PE Exam - Engagement Form Help



## Dashpot (Jun 6, 2011)

I'm working on filling in all the forms that are required for taking the PE exam in California. My main concern is Part A of the Engagement Record form ( http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf ) Over the last 2 years I have worked with 4 PEs (per requirements), however I didn't work with each in a nice linear fashion, I worked with PE 1, then PE 2, then PE 1 again, then PE 3, etc... I'm wondering if for each restart with PE 1 do I need to give PE 1 a new engagement form, so the to and from dates for PE 1 don't appear to overlap PE 2, 3 and 4 or if the "total time worked in months" will let the reviewing folks know I had other engagements during the first start and the last end dates...

Thoughts?

lease:


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## PsychoNumber1 (Jun 7, 2011)

Dashpot said:


> I'm working on filling in all the forms that are required for taking the PE exam in California. My main concern is Part A of the Engagement Record form ( http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf ) Over the last 2 years I have worked with 4 PEs (per requirements), however I didn't work with each in a nice linear fashion, I worked with PE 1, then PE 2, then PE 1 again, then PE 3, etc... I'm wondering if for each restart with PE 1 do I need to give PE 1 a new engagement form, so the to and from dates for PE 1 don't appear to overlap PE 2, 3 and 4 or if the "total time worked in months" will let the reviewing folks know I had other engagements during the first start and the last end dates...
> Thoughts?
> 
> lease:


i split mine up to avoid that issue. so my first engagement and my last engagement were the same supervisor.


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## ptatohed (Jun 8, 2011)

Dashpot said:


> I'm working on filling in all the forms that are required for taking the PE exam in California. My main concern is Part A of the Engagement Record form ( http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf ) Over the last 2 years I have worked with 4 PEs (per requirements), however I didn't work with each in a nice linear fashion, I worked with PE 1, then PE 2, then PE 1 again, then PE 3, etc... I'm wondering if for each restart with PE 1 do I need to give PE 1 a new engagement form, so the to and from dates for PE 1 don't appear to overlap PE 2, 3 and 4 or if the "total time worked in months" will let the reviewing folks know I had other engagements during the first start and the last end dates...
> Thoughts?
> 
> lease:



I sympathize with you Dash. I felt like the application was a test in itself - lol. All these rules - no gaps, no overlap, each engagement must be unique and for its own period of time, a reference from a non-supervisor co-worker counts as a reference but not as qualifying time, etc. Very frustrating. All I can say is be creative while being honest and remember you can submit more than 4 engagements. Good luck.


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## palvarez83 (Jun 8, 2011)

Dashpot said:


> I'm working on filling in all the forms that are required for taking the PE exam in California. My main concern is Part A of the Engagement Record form ( http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf ) Over the last 2 years I have worked with 4 PEs (per requirements), however I didn't work with each in a nice linear fashion, I worked with PE 1, then PE 2, then PE 1 again, then PE 3, etc... I'm wondering if for each restart with PE 1 do I need to give PE 1 a new engagement form, so the to and from dates for PE 1 don't appear to overlap PE 2, 3 and 4 or if the "total time worked in months" will let the reviewing folks know I had other engagements during the first start and the last end dates...
> Thoughts?
> 
> lease:


Negative... One engagement is 1 job... So say that you've been employed at company X for 2 years... You would only have one engagement. Now on the specific references forms you would select the dates you were involved with that PE. So say you were workng with PE A from Jan to June 2009 and with PE B from Feb to September of that same year as long as it is one company that would be one engagement.

Now you can have multiple engamentments if you have had multiple jobs. Here is the critera. You have to have at leat 4 PE references. For each engamentment (job) you have, at least one of those references should be from that job. When you're application is reviewed they say ok he/she worked this job for 6 month and all six months there was a PE associated with them... that is 6 months work of credit. Then he/she worked at this other job for 18 months and though it wasn't the same PE working with him/her the entire time, there was a PE in responsible charge at any given time, therefore that's another 18 months.


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## Dashpot (Jun 8, 2011)

You can't be serious, you're saying the board expects me to find four different companies to work for in two years? I'd have to be searching for another job the day I get hired! The form says different PROJECTS in the same capacity don't count for more than 1 engagement, but if I switch responsibilities then it becomes another engagement. This is from the PE Application Form:



> List your engagements below in reverse chronological order. Leave no gaps in the record. Your present engagement is No. 1. Anengagement is one association, with one employer, in one capacity, at one level of responsibility. A change in engagement is a promotion,
> 
> a new employer, or a significant change in duties, authority, responsibility, etc. DIFFERENT PROJECTS IN THE SAME CAPACITY FOR
> 
> ...


My question is I work under PE 1 for so long, switch responsibilities for 1 month under PE 2, then return to PE 1, do I need to give PE 1 two engagement forms? Whats so different than if I worked for PE 1 for the equal number of months, then PE 2. I ask because some people are rather anal and put up a fuss if the dates on the form don't reflect the actual dates I worked for them...


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## ptatohed (Jun 9, 2011)

palvarez83 said:


> Dashpot said:
> 
> 
> > I'm working on filling in all the forms that are required for taking the PE exam in California. My main concern is Part A of the Engagement Record form ( http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf ) Over the last 2 years I have worked with 4 PEs (per requirements), however I didn't work with each in a nice linear fashion, I worked with PE 1, then PE 2, then PE 1 again, then PE 3, etc... I'm wondering if for each restart with PE 1 do I need to give PE 1 a new engagement form, so the to and from dates for PE 1 don't appear to overlap PE 2, 3 and 4 or if the "total time worked in months" will let the reviewing folks know I had other engagements during the first start and the last end dates...
> ...


I don't agree that one employer is one engagement.


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## palvarez83 (Jun 9, 2011)

ptatohed said:


> palvarez83 said:
> 
> 
> > Dashpot said:
> ...


Call the board and ask. That's what they told me. I've been through this 2 times now, first with my mechanical PE and then with my electrical PE. Both times that's how I did it and there was no problem.


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## palvarez83 (Jun 9, 2011)

Dashpot said:


> You can't be serious, you're saying the board expects me to find four different companies to work for in two years? I'd have to be searching for another job the day I get hired! The form says different PROJECTS in the same capacity don't count for more than 1 engagement, but if I switch responsibilities then it becomes another engagement. This is from the PE Application Form:
> My question is I work under PE 1 for so long, switch responsibilities for 1 month under PE 2, then return to PE 1, do I need to give PE 1 two engagement forms? Whats so different than if I worked for PE 1 for the equal number of months, then PE 2. I ask because some people are rather anal and put up a fuss if the dates on the form don't reflect the actual dates I worked for them...


You don't need 4 engagements. You can have 1 engagement with 4 references for said engagement. For PE1 I would just put it down as a continuous dates (don't include the gap) on his/her engagement form there is a sections with dates that he/she is to fill in and can clarify. Just make sure that an any given TIME for which are you claiming credit, you were under AT Least 1 PE.


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## Dashpot (Jun 9, 2011)

palvarez83 said:


> You don't need 4 engagements. You can have 1 engagement with 4 references for said engagement. For PE1 I would just put it down as a continuous dates (don't include the gap) on his/her engagement form there is a sections with dates that he/she is to fill in and can clarify. Just make sure that an any given TIME for which are you claiming credit, you were under AT Least 1 PE.


MIND = BLOWN. :mf_grenade:

Well shoot, I've been with the same company for 2 years, so in my case I should put engagement #1 on everything. Thanks for your help Mr Alvarez!


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## PsychoNumber1 (Jun 9, 2011)

i've been at one place for 4 years. i listed it as 5 enagagements. one for each stint with the PE in responsible charge. (#1 and #5 was the same person).


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## Dashpot (Jun 9, 2011)

If neither of you had problems, I guess they don't really care as much as the all caps, bold typeface instructions at the top of the page led to me believe. Well, I've already prepared everything per palverez83's advice and handed them out. I'll check back and let everyone know how it went...


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## Orangineer (Oct 11, 2016)

Dashpot, how did this work out for you? 5 years later, and I am currently experiencing the same confusion you did. (Two+ years of experience, one job, and multiple assignments/projects under 4+ registered PEs.) How did you end up defining an "engagement?"

Thanks!


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## civilahmad (Sep 12, 2017)

I have an issue with the references, I have experience for 15 years, 2 years in CA, 13 years outside of united states at the gulf and middle east.

and since my university is not ABET university So I have to submit minimum 4 years. but my friends advised me to send my whole engagements for 15 years without any gap.

which is not easy to contact with different 3 companies and even though, until today I am not sure of the required supporting documents besides each engagement ash supervisor must attach it to the engagement report to tell them I am authorized here. this is not easy and I must ask each supervisor to track his authorization and write how he was authorized at that time. 

I want to ask if somebody has the same case with California board, what the required documents for these countries like Dubai or Saudi Arabia, there is no stamp or authorized person. the authorization there for companies who employ qualified persons.

I have worked with international firms in prestigious and unique projects as a structural Engineer/ Structural Designer under professional engineers who don't have stamps seal for themselves.

Also, I worked as head of the structural section in many projects where I was the supervisor.

If somebody has a similar case or has good info, I appreciate any advice!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest (Sep 14, 2017)

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## GirlFriday (Sep 27, 2017)

My coworker, whom I'm helping to fill out CA SE license application for, has worked for the company for over 30 years as a structural engineer. No other SEs licensed with the organization. Does he need to find references outside the organization who are SEs and worked with him on the various projects?


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## ptatohed (Sep 28, 2017)

GirlFriday said:


> My coworker, whom I'm helping to fill out CA SE license application for, has worked for the company for over 30 years as a structural engineer. No other SEs licensed with the organization. Does he need to find references outside the organization who are SEs and worked with him on the various projects?


What would be the other option?  Since he needs at least 3 SE references and there are no SEs in his firm, then he will need to find other SEs who can vouch for his experience.

[SIZE= 12px]_An applicant for authority to use the title Structural Engineer must provide at least three references from persons having a current_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_and valid registration as a structural engineer in California, or the equivalent thereto. Each reference must have personal_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_knowledge of that portion of the applicant’s qualifying experience he or she is verifying. Personal knowledge must have come from_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_an examination of the applicant’s work to the extent that the reference is sufficiently familiar with that experience to comment about_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_it._[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_A minimum of three references is required. A reference must be provided for each engagement for which the applicant desires_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_credit so that the time verified by all references adds up to at least three years. References from supervisors are preferred. If,_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_however, the applicant cannot obtain references from supervisors, references may be obtained from other registrants who have_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_personal knowledge of the applicant’s qualifying work experience. References from relatives, either by birth or marriage, are not_[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_normally acceptable._[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]_It is the applicant’s responsibility to select references that can verify the applicant’s qualifying work experience._[/SIZE]


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## Mdeline (Sep 8, 2020)

On the CA Civil Engineering "Engagement Summary and References" form it states:


"An *engagement *is an employment with one employer, in one capacity at one level of responsibility. Different projects in the same capacity for one employer are *not *considered separate engagements."

"Explain overlaps in dates." (why?? what is wrong with having multiple references for the same engagement??)

"Applicants must submit a minimum of four *(4) references*"

"Each engagement for which the applicant desires credit MUST have *a* reference in responsible charge who is legally authorized to practice... The remaining references can be from *indirect supervisors*, co-workers, clients, etc."

"All of the names of your *references must be listed* on this page."

Then the form asks you to state the engagement number, dates, and months of qualifying experience for each reference.

From all this information, the only thing I can conclude is that you don't need 4 engagements, you need 4 references. And if you were in only one engagement (as I was) then they are all Engagement 1. And I only need to have a minimum of one licensed engineer, as long as he can state that I worked under him for the required number of months.

The part I don't understand is how to input the dates for the different references. Do I put in the dates and number of months for the engagement or for the reference person? It doesn't seem to make sense that I put down dates for the person, since references can be "indirect supervisors, co-workers, clients, etc". And even if all my references were managers (as in my case), I am frequently on multiple projects at a time under multiple different licensed engineers at a time. I have switched around FAR too may times to fit it all chronologically on the provided form. And what if I want to use a supervisor that knows me well and advised me on projects but was never my direct report?

But on the other hand, if I'm supposed to just put down the dates of the engagement, it seems weird to have all the same information for every line except the names and license numbers. It just seems like they should have made a distinction between the reference and engagement forms and now it's all just very unclear. I would love some to hear some opinions on how I handle inputting the dates on the summary form. Thanks!

Madeline


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## JustWantMyLicense (Oct 5, 2020)

On the engagement form you should be putting the dates of the engagement not the dates with the reference. The second page that the reference fills out will ask them what dates they were familiar with your work. For me I worked at the same company but was promoted after a year, so I had two engagements and 4 references. Two references got identical engagement 2 records and the other two references got identical engagement 1 records. I had no issues with this.


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