# Could what's happening in Egypt happen here?



## Capt Worley PE (Feb 4, 2011)

Is it even possible?

What issues would trigger such riots?

What would be the effects, long and short term?


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## navyasw02 (Feb 4, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Is it even possible?
> What issues would trigger such riots?
> 
> What would be the effects, long and short term?


I think it could happen, but it's not very likely. Despite what the bobbleheads on TV talk about with our nation going down the shitter, it's not any worse than it's ever been. Just because the debt level rises because of a massive economic collapse doesn't mean we'll be in debt forever. We're just seeing the knee jerk reaction in action. That said, if say there was another financial crisis that completely destroyed the economy, I think we could see some political upheaval, but not on the Egypt scale. Think more like Greece earlier last year. I think the major source of problems in these countries that are rioting is corruption and oppression which is far less here than it is there.


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## Master slacker (Feb 4, 2011)

Well, that and these countries' greatest natural resource is *SAND*!


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## Supe (Feb 4, 2011)

I doubt it. Our nation seems to be more content to piss and moan and point fingers at the opposing party than to actually get up and do something about it. After all, we are the world's laziest country.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 4, 2011)

Won't happen here. Our bacon reserves are massive.


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## goodal (Feb 4, 2011)

I just watched the video advertised ALL over the radio from endofamerica44.com. Let me warn you its no 10 min youtube video. It was about an hour long and the last 15 minutes is a sales pitch, but what he says during the first 45 minutes will have you so scared you'll wet your pants. I have fact checked only a few of the many, many statements made and all of them I checked were accurate. I'm not advertising for them and am not sure I will subscribe because when you google the guy some very shady stuff comes up, but IF he is correct something like Egypt (or worse) WILL occur here soon. I don't have any money to invest or I might just throw away the $49 to see what he suggests, but it does highten my awareness to what I am seeing and hearing every day. I've said to those that would listen in my circle since this "recovery" started taking place in the spring of '09 that there is no reason for a recovery. The stupid medical takeover has always been looming, with the democrats there is always the threat of raising taxes, we are still in 2 very expensive wars (with no end in sight), and the reasons go on and on for a pessimistic outlook. So why did the stock market hit 12,000 this week? I dont know. But he did show a graphic where the EXACT same thing happened during the 30's. Big fall, slight recovery, then an even nastier fall. I don't really know what I can do to minimize a collapse like egypt or greece, but im going to start taking it seriously. I know this makes me sound paranoid, but maybe at least I'll eat good while the rest of the world falls apart.


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## momech (Feb 4, 2011)

badal said:


> I just watched the video advertised ALL over the radio from endofamerica44.com. Let me warn you its no 10 min youtube video. It was about an hour long and the last 15 minutes is a sales pitch, but what he says during the first 45 minutes will have you so scared you'll wet your pants. I have fact checked only a few of the many, many statements made and all of them I checked were accurate. I'm not advertising for them and am not sure I will subscribe because when you google the guy some very shady stuff comes up, but IF he is correct something like Egypt (or worse) WILL occur here soon. I don't have any money to invest or I might just throw away the $49 to see what he suggests, but it does highten my awareness to what I am seeing and hearing every day. I've said to those that would listen in my circle since this "recovery" started taking place in the spring of '09 that there is no reason for a recovery. The stupid medical takeover has always been looming, with the democrats there is always the threat of raising taxes, we are still in 2 very expensive wars (with no end in sight), and the reasons go on and on for a pessimistic outlook. So why did the stock market hit 12,000 this week? I dont know. But he did show a graphic where the EXACT same thing happened during the 30's. Big fall, slight recovery, then an even nastier fall. I don't really know what I can do to minimize a collapse like egypt or greece, but im going to start taking it seriously. I know this makes me sound paranoid, but maybe at least I'll eat good while the rest of the world falls apart.


Funny, I watched that yesterday. I think it is a scam where he keeps stringing you along with $49 to see his next "secret", which doesn't actually tell you the "secret", but for another $49 you might get closer to his "secret." I do agree with his premise that we have gone beyond the point of no return regarding our debt, though. Our current debt is $127,380/taxpayer (http://www.usdebtclock.org/). I truly believe that our day of reckoning is coming, and probably soon. I recommend everyone watch the video, but don't buy the scam.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 4, 2011)

Isn't that some sort of investment scheme?


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## ALBin517 (Feb 4, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Is it even possible?
> What issues would trigger such riots?
> 
> What would be the effects, long and short term?



No

I believe the primary difference between the United States and Egypt is that American males grow up playing baseball. With that background, we realize the folly of flinging 3-ounce rocks at tanks and other armored vehicles.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 4, 2011)

It's the bacon, I tell you. BACON!!!!


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## goodal (Feb 4, 2011)

yes i do think its a scam but as momech said its the facts he presents about the current state of the union that got my panties in a bunch.


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## snickerd3 (Feb 4, 2011)

badal said:


> yes i do think its a scam but as momech said its the facts he presents about the current state of the union that got my panties in a bunch.


TMI...

since you brought it up are you bikini or granny panties wearing guy?


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 4, 2011)

I vote for gold man thong.


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## navyasw02 (Feb 4, 2011)

momech said:


> Funny, I watched that yesterday. I think it is a scam where he keeps stringing you along with $49 to see his next "secret", which doesn't actually tell you the "secret", but for another $49 you might get closer to his "secret." I do agree with his premise that we have gone beyond the point of no return regarding our debt, though. Our current debt is $127,380/taxpayer (http://www.usdebtclock.org/). I truly believe that our day of reckoning is coming, and probably soon. I recommend everyone watch the video, but don't buy the scam.



I dont think we're beyond the point of no return, that's pretty dismal. Government financial accounting is a bit like an MC Escher drawing where if you rotate the paper, you'll see something different. There's always ways of doing creative math to fix the problems. My guess is we'll do a lot of slashing and then dip into that old slush fund we call Social Security and presto changeo, all our debt is gone. In a few years we'll have a debate in Congress about Social Security being broke and what do you know, we'll have to raise the SS contribution percentage to fix it. But just dont call it a tax increase, that'll get you voted out of office.


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## wilheldp_PE (Feb 4, 2011)

I bet the Romans thought that their great empire was immune to collapse too...too big to fail, perhaps. Bit collapse they did...as has every world superpower in recorded history. The US can absolutely collapse, and the second we believe it can't is when the fat lady will sing.


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## cableguy (Feb 4, 2011)

I bet if the Romans had a fleet of C5's, satellite communications, and AR15's, they probably would not have fallen.  I have a feeling they just stretched themselves too thin. An interesting read is the autobiography of Julius Cesar. It opened my non-military eyes to the logistical problem of moving a military during the days of horses. Imagine the supply lines. Imagine soldiers showing up and stripping the land and livestock bare. Eventually it has to give out, because you just can't move enough goods by horse.

I will agree, we're in a pickle though. Too many people want a handout, too many people just want easy street. Don't want to work. Many Americans lack the motivation to actually accomplish something in their lives.

Social Security will be gone by the time I think about retiring, I have no doubt. And I wouldn't be surprised when they want to absorb 401k accounts in to Social Security. That'll be a domino that really pushes a lot of buttons. At that moment, I'll withdraw my 401k and spend it on ammunition and canned goods.


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## momech (Feb 4, 2011)

navyasw02 said:


> My guess is we'll do a lot of slashing and then dip into that old slush fund we call Social Security and presto changeo, all our debt is gone.


If we had $13 trillion in the slush fund, I don't think anyone would be concerned that it was going broke.


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## benbo (Feb 4, 2011)

Maybe Chucktown got so worried about the demise of the US he went off the grid and is living in a bunker somewhere and that's why we never hear from him anymore.

I sort of doubt it though.


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## wilheldp_PE (Feb 4, 2011)

At the time, the Romans had the largest and most technically advanced army in history...much like the US today. I would also like to point out that we are currently fighting wars on multiple fronts around the world. Plus, we are fighting a worldwide guerilla war with "invisible" terrists.

I don't think it was lack of military might or over-reaching of the empire that eventually brought the Romans down. It was hubris that they would never collapse that eventually led to their collapse.


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## navyasw02 (Feb 4, 2011)

momech said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> > My guess is we'll do a lot of slashing and then dip into that old slush fund we call Social Security and presto changeo, all our debt is gone.
> ...


Thats why I said we'll do it with a lot of slashing. Regardless, there are going to have to be cuts.


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## Exengineer (Feb 4, 2011)

"Thats why I said we'll do it with a lot of slashing. Regardless, there are going to have to be cuts."Of course the cuts will be in Social Security, not in military expenses. No one is concerned about a bunch of over-65s taking to the streets to protest the loss of their SS payments. The billionaires in the arms industries will continue getting richer while the older folks who made it possible for them to be there will get bread and water.


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## benbo (Feb 4, 2011)

> Of course the cuts will be in Social Security, not in military expenses. No one is concerned about a bunch of over-65s taking to the streets


You have got to be kidding. Of course nobody is concerned about them taking to the streets - but American politicians are extremely concerned about this demographic because they actually turn out to vote. They don't call SS the "third rail" of politics for nothing. They would have made bigcuts to SS already if not for this reason.

I saw Mitch McConnell on a Sunday Morning show last wek and they couldn't get him to mention a single specific about cutting this - he just kept repeating that it was insolvent and the Pres had to show "leadership". When the interviewer asked for any specifics he kept parroting this same mantra.

That's why any proposed cuts will be "down the road" - affecting only younger voters who don't bothewr to vote and don't expect to get anything anyway. And even there , I doubt there will any more than the pushing back of the retirement age a bit.


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## DVINNY (Feb 5, 2011)

benbo said:


> Maybe Chucktown got so worried about the demise of the US he went off the grid and is living in a bunker somewhere and that's why we never hear from him anymore.
> I sort of doubt it though.


yeah,

where the frick has he been?

and YES, it can happen here, we probably aren't as far from it as some think. Just 150 years ago, we were shooting each other in this country. Don't be foolish enough to think we've "evolved" that much in the last 150 years.


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## jeb6294 (Feb 7, 2011)

Master slacker said:


> Well, that and these countries' greatest natural resource is *SAND*!


Actually, that's not entirely true...here in Afghanistan I think it's still heroin.


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## Slugger926 (Feb 7, 2011)

SapperPE said:


> I tend to go back and forth on this. It is easy for us to become complacent in our lifestyles, thinking that we have a peaceful country. The truth is that the propensity to do terrible things lies just beneath the surface. There are sporadic outbursts of irrational violence in this country every day. They are typically contained, but they happen all the time. Take street gangs for example. There are some places in almost every city in America that could theoretically be considered a combat zone, with gunfights in the streets. Granted, the bulk of that activity is confined to certain geographic areas, but we aren't exempt.
> If the right mixture of discontentment is fueled by the right mixture of oppression or economic instability, we could have some very bad business in this country. The key difference is that we have such a large geographical area for our country, that it would be unlikely to see the type of activity across the entire country, but if such activity erupted in DC, New York, and some other places, it could be a similar scale as what is going on elsewhere in the world.
> 
> Our hope is that there are more rational people than irrational, and more people willing to work things out peacefully.


We have had several guys from other countries lecture some of my MBA Entrepreneurship classes, and I interviewed Johnny Halberstadt (CEO of Boulder Running Company) for OSU's MBA program 50th Anniversary book of distinguished alumni. All have said that the thing that sets us apart is freedom to go for your dream and create your own company, free to speak as you wish, and the IRS is there to keep everyone in line. Other countries oppress people from starting their own thing, or speaking against government actions.

BTW, Johnny still has death threats in SA for speaking up against the apartheid. http://www.timeslive.co.za/sport/other/art...hnny-looks-back


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## Santiagj (Feb 9, 2011)

cableguy said:


> I bet if the Romans had a fleet of C5's, satellite communications, and AR15's, they probably would not have fallen.  I have a feeling they just stretched themselves too thin. An interesting read is the autobiography of Julius Cesar. It opened my non-military eyes to the logistical problem of moving a military during the days of horses. Imagine the supply lines. Imagine soldiers showing up and stripping the land and livestock bare. Eventually it has to give out, because you just can't move enough goods by horse.
> I will agree, we're in a pickle though. Too many people want a handout, too many people just want easy street. Don't want to work. Many Americans lack the motivation to actually accomplish something in their lives.
> 
> Social Security will be gone by the time I think about retiring, I have no doubt. And I wouldn't be surprised when they want to absorb 401k accounts in to Social Security. That'll be a domino that really pushes a lot of buttons. At that moment, I'll withdraw my 401k and spend it on ammunition and canned goods.


That's one thing that will definately get the masses rioting. At least I will join in if my 401k got absorbed.


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## navyasw02 (Feb 9, 2011)

cableguy said:


> Social Security will be gone by the time I think about retiring, I have no doubt. And I wouldn't be surprised when they want to absorb 401k accounts in to Social Security. That'll be a domino that really pushes a lot of buttons. At that moment, I'll withdraw my 401k and spend it on ammunition and canned goods.


I would gladly forfeit all the money I've "donated" to SS if I could opt out. It's a shame that I put almost as much into SS every month as I put into my ROTH IRA.


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## snickerd3 (Feb 9, 2011)

with the start of our new state legislative sesison there is talk of expanding the pension reform to include existing employees, not just new employee as was already passed. Even though it is against the IL constitution to do such a thing.

I'd be more than happy taking the $ i've put into the pension system out lump sum and invest it how i wish with a 401(k) type of thing...then at least I am in control somewhat


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 10, 2011)

navyasw02 said:


> cableguy said:
> 
> 
> > Social Security will be gone by the time I think about retiring, I have no doubt. And I wouldn't be surprised when they want to absorb 401k accounts in to Social Security. That'll be a domino that really pushes a lot of buttons. At that moment, I'll withdraw my 401k and spend it on ammunition and canned goods.
> ...


I would, too.

If they do try to absorb IRAs, 401(k)s, and 457s into SS, as I keep hearing more and more mention of, I'm going to trip offline. I think a LOT of people would. Matter of fact, if they do that, I believe you'd see the second American Revolution happen real quick.


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## picusld (Feb 10, 2011)

snickerd3 said:


> with the start of our new state legislative sesison there is talk of expanding the pension reform to include existing employees, not just new employee as was already passed. Even though it is against the IL constitution to do such a thing.
> I'd be more than happy taking the $ i've put into the pension system out lump sum and invest it how i wish with a 401(k) type of thing...then at least I am in control somewhat


It makes me a little mental when I think about having 4.2-6.2% of my pay stolen from me and then lied to about the reason for the theft.

Just not right.

At some point, people will begin to hit a breaking point and either quit or fight back. The less rational individuals that fight back will most likely resort to violence. Like the guy who flew his plane into the IRS building.

Hope that it doesn't come to that on a large scale.


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## cableguy (Feb 10, 2011)

SapperPE said:


> I have to say that if 401(k)s got absorbed into the Social Security, I'd be ready for war myself, but I mean seriously, is there any chance of that happening? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm seriously asking, is that even possible?


I don't know if a full seizure would be involved, but there's been talk of changing the way 401k works, to making it a mandatory after-tax contribution, with the pool run by the government...

http://boortz.com/nealz_nuze/2008/11/your-...l-security.html

This is just a quick example I found from a Google, there are other places out there that discuss it as well.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 10, 2011)

SapperPE said:


> I have to say that if 401(k)s got absorbed into the Social Security, I'd be ready for war myself, but I mean seriously, is there any chance of that happening? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm seriously asking, is that even possible?


I didn't think it was, but I keep hearing politicians talk about it. And if they are talking about it, they dang sure are thinking about doing it.

And I'm not kidding about that triggering the second American Revolution. I think folks would riot over that. I mean, I've accepted my whole life that SS won't be there for me and 6.5% of my salary is going away to the gov, and that's frustrating enough, but if they touch money I've socked away for my retirement and confiscate it to bolster SS, I will not be a happy camper.


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 10, 2011)

The idea of "absorbing" 401k and IRA money into the government coffers has been floated a couple of times in congress but nothing has come from it yet. The supporters of this idea would like to use a market correction as a basis for taking control of your investments and putting them in the expert and safe hands of the all knowing federal bureaucracy. If it comes to pass, the stock market is going to crash in a major way. I can't be the only one that would be pulling everything out and paying the penalty rather than handing it over to the fed for the promise that they'll take care of me later.


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## ALBin517 (Feb 10, 2011)

"Yeah, we could not make Social Security work with the money we had before. Nobody is quite sure what happened there. Wow, that was crazy. But anyway... get us another batch of money and I'm sure we'll be cool this time."

Sincerely,

The Gubment


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## Wolverine (Feb 10, 2011)

SapperPE said:


> I have to say that if 401(k)s got absorbed into the Social Security, I'd be ready for war myself, but I mean seriously, is there any chance of that happening? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm seriously asking, is that even possible?


I found out the hard way that lawyers can do almost anything if they have the right judge, including take your supposedly untouchable 401K.


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## picusld (Feb 10, 2011)

Wolverine said:


> SapperPE said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say that if 401(k)s got absorbed into the Social Security, I'd be ready for war myself, but I mean seriously, is there any chance of that happening? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm seriously asking, is that even possible?
> ...


Not to beat a dead horse...But

In order to get a Building permit in PA for a residential lot with disturbance over one acre, the government is mandating that you deed restrict your storm water management BMP and agree to take care of it forever. Then you have to contribute a few grand to a stormwater fund.

It is essentially a backdoor way of them taking your land while providing nothing in consideration.

How it is legal I have no idea.

So do I believe that they would take something while citing some sort of public service that they are providing, of course.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 10, 2011)

Flyer_PE said:


> I can't be the only one that would be pulling everything out and paying the penalty rather than handing it over to the fed for the promise that they'll take care of me later.


No, I'd be there with you. Then I'd probably purchase a lot of guns, ammo, canned food and bottled water.



picusld said:


> So do I believe that they would take something while citing some sort of public service that they are providing, of course.


Well, the SCOTUS has determined that it is perfectly legal for the government to seize your land if it can make more taxes off of it by giving it to a developer. How 'more tax revenue' equals 'for the common good' is beyond me, but the precedent has been set.


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## BluSkyy (Feb 10, 2011)

Interesting times we live in that a bunch of engineering professionals seriously contemplate the kinds of moves being discussed here.

May it never be.


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## cableguy (Feb 10, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Well, the SCOTUS has determined that it is perfectly legal for the government to seize your land if it can make more taxes off of it by giving it to a developer. How 'more tax revenue' equals 'for the common good' is beyond me, but the precedent has been set.


They're trying to do something about that in Texas:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-02-09/t...rty-rights.html

Though Rick Perry is the same man who wanted to take 500,000 acres of Texas land and turn it in to a tollway run by a Spanish company (the Trans Texas Corridor)... I don't trust that sumbeech... he's in it for one thing. What's good for Rick Perry.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 10, 2011)

BluSkyy said:


> Interesting times we live in that a bunch of engineering professionals seriously contemplate the kinds of moves being discussed here.


Ain't that the truth. The scary thing is that I'm hearing it from a number of professional groups, people you wouldn't think of as wild-eyed nuts. Its beginning to become mainstream.


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## ALBin517 (Feb 11, 2011)

Wolverine said:


> SapperPE said:
> 
> 
> > I have to say that if 401(k)s got absorbed into the Social Security, I'd be ready for war myself, but I mean seriously, is there any chance of that happening? I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm seriously asking, is that even possible?
> ...


I love the logic:

"Folks can't manage their own retirement because they will eff it up and lose all their money."

So what do you want to do with it?

"Put it in Social Security."

????

Using that logic, I might lose my car keys so the government should just take them now and throw them down a well.


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 11, 2011)

^Except they won't tell you they are throwing the keys down the well. That would be bad politics (otherwise known as honesty). As a favor to you, they will be putting your keys in a safe place for you to use later in life. They will then take your car and drive it until it's value has depreciated to zero. If you're lucky, they'll let you know which scrap yard they dumped it at when they're finished.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 11, 2011)

And, if they start, it will begin as a voluntary thing at first, then become mandatory. And yeah, they'll make it sound like a fovor, as if they are saving us.


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## Dark Knight (Feb 11, 2011)

Back to the topic...The Egipcian President just quit today.


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## wilheldp_PE (Feb 11, 2011)

Quitter.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 11, 2011)

Prepare for Iran II and don't be surprised if they close the Suez canal...


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## ALBin517 (Feb 11, 2011)

Flyer_PE said:


> ^Except they won't tell you they are throwing the keys down the well. That would be bad politics (otherwise known as honesty). As a favor to you, they will be putting your keys in a safe place for you to use later in life. They will then take your car and drive it until it's value has depreciated to zero. If you're lucky, they'll let you know which scrap yard they dumped it at when they're finished.


The primary problem with government-managed retirement plans (in my opinion) is that the government is run by politicians who don’t care what happens after they leave office. So when the average political term is 5 years and the average person won’t retire for 20 years, what do you think will happen?


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 11, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Prepare for Iran II and don't be surprised if they close the Suez canal...


Not sure how well the parallel between Iran and Egypt will hold up. I think it's all going to come down to where the Egyptian military casts its lot. Only time will tell.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 11, 2011)

If I had to put money on it, I'd say you'll see a radical Islamist government in place in the not too distant future. Government overthrows generally don't end all that well. you usually end up with something worse than you had to begin with.


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## FusionWhite (Feb 11, 2011)

I doubt Iran II will happen. For one I dont think they would hesitate to use the military against protesters in Iran if it gets even close to what we are seeing in Egypt. The Revolutionary Guard is the real political power in Iran and they will crush any attempt at revolt. Im surprised they didnt come down even more heavy handed after the election.

And why would Egypt close the Suez Canal? The only scenario in which it would have benefited anyone in Egypt would have been for Mubarak to order the closing of the Suez as a ploy to force the US et al to back him and keep him in power (using the canal as a hostage basically). Now that hes resigned it doesnt benefit anyone in Egypt to force the international community to throw support to whoever will keep the canal open. If the military takes over and closes the canal the 13 billion dollars we send them in military aid each year will go bye-bye instantly. If the pro-democracy/Muslim Brotherhood snatches power and pulls that I can guarantee you the State Department/CIA/NSA/Defense Department will go full bore into "Regime Change" mode.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 11, 2011)

FusionWhite said:


> I doubt Iran II will happen. For one I dont think they would hesitate to use the military against protesters in Iran if it gets even close to what we are seeing in Egypt. The Revolutionary Guard is the real political power in Iran and they will crush any attempt at revolt. Im surprised they didnt come down even more heavy handed after the election.


I meant that Egypt will become the next 1979 version of Iran.



> And why would Egypt close the Suez Canal?


The Muslim brotherhood could very well do it to spite the West. It would be cutting off their nose to spit their face, but not at all beyond the realm of possibility.



> If the pro-democracy/Muslim Brotherhood snatches power and pulls that I can guarantee you the State Department/CIA/NSA/Defense Department will go full bore into "Regime Change" mode.


I wouldn't count on that. I'm getting the impression that O-man is down with what's happening right now.


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 11, 2011)

I read this in an opinion piece this morning and it expresses my thinking on this better than I could. Something to keep in mind for analyzing any of this:



> Here's one of the big problems in modern news coverage: We have no way of knowing what is going out three inches or three thousand miles outside the frame of the television camera. We spent the day being treated to the often hyperventilated coverage of what had been going on in Tahrir Square. Let's say there were 100,000 people there on Thursday. Egypt is a country of 80 million. We have no idea what the other 79,900,000 people were doing because they are outside the frame.


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## FusionWhite (Feb 11, 2011)

So the Egyptians have managed to pull off a relatively peaceful (300+ deaths Ive heard, not bad considering most uprisings like this end up as blood baths) overthrow of the government in the name of Democracy. The military is saying they will guarantee free and fair elections. Now if all of that comes to pass isnt that what we should want. Isnt the goal to give the countries in the middle east Democracies? Or are we only looking for Democracies that agree with us? That would be nice but it wont happen.

If Egypt holds free and fair elections and votes in radical Islamists then who are we to say that their Democracy is a bad thing? The US has a long history of spouting a love of freedom while supporting tyrannical dictators (like the one in Egypt). Now dont get me wrong, I think a radical Islamic nation in control of the Suez Canal and on the border with Israel is a bad thing, but how can you/we (you being someone reading this, we meaing the US as a country in general) support fighting two wars in which we are trying to "bring" Democracy's to other countries and then turn your nose up at what results in Egypt?


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 11, 2011)

Well, and another thing is the media just sucks, too. Just the other day, I was watching CBS news and heard "It was a day of calm in Egypt today." I switched over to ABC (I can't stand Katie the Commie Couric), and heard, "It was a day of unprecedented violence in Egypt today."


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## pabelong PE (Feb 11, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> At the time, the Romans had the largest and most technically advanced army in history...much like the US today. I would also like to point out that we are currently fighting wars on multiple fronts around the world. Plus, we are fighting a worldwide guerilla war with "invisible" terrists.
> I don't think it was lack of military might or over-reaching of the empire that eventually brought the Romans down. It was hubris that they would never collapse that eventually led to their collapse.


And they had bacon, too. We are DOOMED.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 11, 2011)

FusionWhite said:


> *If Egypt holds free and fair elections* and votes in radical Islamists then who are we to say that their Democracy is a bad thing? The US has a long history of spouting a love of freedom while supporting tyrannical dictators (like the one in Egypt). Now dont get me wrong, I think a radical Islamic nation in control of the Suez Canal and on the border with Israel is a bad thing, but how can you/we (you being someone reading this, we meaing the US as a country in general) support fighting two wars in which we are trying to "bring" Democracy's to other countries and then turn your nose up at what results in Egypt?


I have doubts that the bolded will occur.


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## DVINNY (Feb 13, 2011)

BluSkyy said:


> Interesting times we live in that a bunch of engineering professionals seriously contemplate the kinds of moves being discussed here.
> May it never be.


just to quote myself from earlier...



DVINNY said:


> and YES, it can happen here, we probably aren't as far from it as some think. Just 150 years ago, we were shooting each other in this country. Don't be foolish enough to think we've "evolved" that much in the last 150 years.


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## benbo (Feb 13, 2011)

> If Egypt holds free and fair elections and votes in radical Islamists then who are we to say that their Democracy is a bad thing? The US has a long history of spouting a love of freedom while supporting tyrannical dictators (like the one in Egypt). Now dont get me wrong, I think a radical Islamic nation in control of the Suez Canal and on the border with Israel is a bad thing, but how can you/we (you being someone reading this, we meaing the US as a country in general) support fighting two wars in which we are trying to "bring" Democracy's to other countries and then turn your nose up at what results in Egypt?


The US is a sovereign nation and like all sovereign nations supports governments which are in its interests more than anything else.

There are democracies and then there are democracies. What we would like to see is a Jeffersonian democracy - free and fair elections along with constitutional type controls on the government and basic human rights. We never had a pure democracy in this country, I can't see why we would claim it is the best government everywhere else. Most of our politicians seem to believe this would end up being in our interest in the long run. I have no idea whether it would be or not. And I doubt we have much control over that anyway. Frankly, I personally think the Egyptian military will be in control as long as they feel like it, no matter what kind of figurehead civil government they allow.

This is the problem we ran into in the Palestinian territories. We said we wanted democracy but we didn't count on them voting in Hamas. I'm not sure why, I would have thought we could have seen that coming a mile away.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 14, 2011)

benbo said:


> This is the problem we ran into in the Palestinian territories. We said we wanted democracy but we didn't count on them voting in Hamas. I'm not sure why, I would have thought we could have seen that coming a mile away.


The intelligence community is the same as any other; many opinions, but only one gets pushed up the ladder. In that case, the wrong opinions were promoted. I'm with you, though, i really can't see how such a poor decsion was made.


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## wilheldp_PE (Feb 14, 2011)

We want Democracy in the Middle East only if we like and/or can control the leaders they elect. If they don't, then we just secretly fund a rebellion and start over. It works out really well. See the great success of Iran and Cuba.


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## benbo (Feb 14, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> It works out really well. See the great success of Iran and Cuba.


I don't understand this part. See how well what worked? Democracy? Or US backed rebellion? If you're talking about a US backed rebellion in Cuba I guess you are either talking about the Bay of Pigs (obviously, this didn't work). Or are you talking about the fact that the US supported Batista, although I'm not sure we had that big a part of bringing him into power. I actually don't know.

But I'm not sure which rebellion it was that we backed in Iran that was so unsuccessful. Granted, we supported the Shah, but I just thought he was the last in a long string of monarchs over in Persia. We certainly didn't actively support the 1979 Iranian revolution. At least not as far as I know. If you're talking about the very recent mini-rebellionsbin Iran, well, I'm not sure how much we actually supported those.

Now if what you mean is that democratic movements don't always necessarily work out that great, at least from a US government point of view, I agree with you.


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## wilheldp_PE (Feb 14, 2011)

Well, the US supported Batista for a while, but they eventually yanked their support and allowed Castro to take over. I believe that if we had kept supporting Batista, Cuba could have defeated the uprising. The US certainly liked having Batista as a hand-puppet, but that control they enjoyed over him worked in Castro's favor in terms of garnering support for his revolution.

We did a whole lot of meddling in Iran. We supported the Shah several times even though it was common knowledge that he was an oppressive dictator. But he like the US, so we helped him out. Khomeini installed a form of Democracy, but one that was based on Islamic law. The US doesn't like _that_ kind of Democracy, so we've been fighting with them ever since.

Our support or lack of support has nothing to do with the type of government in place. It just hinges on whether or not we like the current leader. Take Saudi Arabia, for instance. They have a Monarchy, not a Democracy, but their monarchs are friendly to the US, so we stay out of their business. Palestine has a Democracy, but since they elected Hamas to power, we are up in their shit all the time.


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## benbo (Feb 14, 2011)

> Well, the US supported Batista for a while, but they eventually yanked their support and allowed Castro to take over. I believe that if we had kept supporting Batista, Cuba could have defeated the uprising. The US certainly liked having Batista as a hand-puppet, but that control they enjoyed over him worked in Castro's favor in terms of garnering support for his revolution.
> We did a whole lot of meddling in Iran. We supported the Shah several times even though it was common knowledge that he was an oppressive dictator. But he like the US, so we helped him out. Khomeini installed a form of Democracy, but one that was based on Islamic law. The US doesn't like that kind of Democracy, so we've been fighting with them ever since.


I'm sure all of that is true. But I still don't believe any of that is equivalent to funding a rebellion when we didn't like the results of a democratic election.

What we did in Nicaragua and Chile was probably closer.

So I guess I'm just arguing the semantics of what you wrote.



> Palestine has a Democracy, but since they elected Hamas to power, we are up in their shit all the time.


This is true. Especially if it includes giving them humanitarian aid.


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