# VW Gate



## Road Guy (Sep 23, 2015)

So what did they actually do? On purpose make the emissions sensors not read correctly or something?

Unsure why they would exend so much energy to violate the standards verus just doing it right? Id like to see the internal risk memo on that one..

of course they are Krauts so they will just say " we were only following orders".....


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## engineergurl (Sep 23, 2015)

Supposedly, they had software that would enable the emission reduction stuff if it was hooked up to a sensor, then it would turn it off once the sensor for the test was unplugged. Which means the car was fully capable of meeting the emission standards, they just turned the feature off? I don't know exactly how much modern cars have beyond a catalytic converter but the whole thing was a pretty silly if you ask me. I suspect that it was to improve the over all gas mileage of the vehicle because that's really the only benefit I know you may get.


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## Ship Wreck PE (Sep 23, 2015)

They got government green subsidies if cars could make the emissions test.


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## Supe (Sep 23, 2015)

Road Guy said:


> So what did they actually do? On purpose make the emissions sensors not read correctly or something?
> 
> Unsure why they would exend so much energy to violate the standards verus just doing it right? Id like to see the internal risk memo on that one..
> 
> of course they are Krauts so they will just say " we were only following orders".....




So it was more than just sensor detection. I could actually sense when it was being tested based on a combination of inputs, including dynamometer testing where the front wheels were turning/under load with the rear wheels stationary. Pretty clever stuff.

They violated it for a number of reasons. Meeting the emissions standards meant a reduction in both performance and fuel economy. Ignoring those standards significantly picked up their NOX emissions, but allowed them to have performance/fuel economy numbers which bested those of their in class competitors (BMW/Mercedes diesels primarily in the US.) Keep in mind, the VW references here also include Audi US diesel models, which are under the VW umbrella.

We don't have hard numbers yet, but the difference between the full emissions tune and the normal operating tune can be significant based on the amount of necking back it takes to meet NOX output requirements, compared to the European versions, whose clean diesels only have to meet CO2 emissions criteria.

Through a combination of MPG performance and a sub X level of NOX emissions, they were eligible for over $51M in Federal subsidies for meeting and exceeding emissions standards.

Long story short, VW is really F'd.


Clean Air Act allows the US Gov't to fine them over $37K per vehicle. This means that VW can take an initial hit of about $18B from the US Gov't up front. That's $6B more than VW's profit for a full year of production.

That $18B does not include any fines/suits from the IRS over the $51M in fraudulent subsidies and associated interest. 

If the VW fix to the ECU reduces fuel economy or performance, lawsuits against VW can result in a credit or buyback of those vehicles. Figure the cost of those vehicles, and some percentage of 482,000 cars. This may be driven largely by how CARB/individual states respond to emissions. Rumor is that California may refuse to pass any VW diesel that has not had the ECU reflashed to meet the proper emissions standards.

VW currently has their 2016 diesel models on hold accordingly, so the dealerships are getting ready to take a nasty hit. They have several billion dollars allotted already just to address dealership woes.


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## engineergurl (Sep 23, 2015)

I guess I wasn't too far off even with out the technical knowledge Supe has, lol


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## Road Guy (Sep 23, 2015)

Yeah that's complicated,I wonder if they also had involvement in the holograms that took down the World Trade Center


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## Supe (Sep 23, 2015)

I heard it was OZ Engineer that discovered it all.


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## snickerd3 (Sep 23, 2015)

The act may allow $37K per car, but they will likely not end up paying that much and settling at a fraction of that fine. Sometimes I wish fed and state stuck to their guns about that sort of thing, but lawyers get involved and the numbers come down drastically


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## Supe (Sep 23, 2015)

Even if they don't, their total damages based on individual and class action suits, plus the IRS will total way over that $18B before factoring in lost sales due to public image.


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## MetsFan (Sep 23, 2015)

I'm just glad I don't own any VW stock.


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## Supe (Sep 23, 2015)

No kidding. 25% hit in a single day.


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## jglavin PE (Sep 23, 2015)

I own one of these cars (2013 Jetta). I remember when I was at the dealer, I thought it was kinda fishy that the Passat with the 2.0 TDI has an SCR (urea injection) system while the Golf and Jetta don't. I asked the salesman, and he gave me a typical salesman answer of "oh, the clever engineers over at VW were able to design the engine to pass emissions without needing it" or something along those lines.

While I'm all for being green and everything, I bought the car for the performance and fuel economy, as I think many did. If their solution can't address the emissions while maintaining performance and mileage, a large segment of technically inclined owners will look to aftermarket tunes, and just retune back to "stock" on testing day, effectively redoing what VW did in the first place.

The responsible fix for VW is to find a way to fix emissions and maintain performance, even if it means retrofitting SCR on all the vehicles.


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## snickerd3 (Sep 23, 2015)

Would this incident stop you from buying a VW in the future? Other than the initial financial hit, i think people that buy VW are still going to buy VW.


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## jglavin PE (Sep 23, 2015)

Supe said:


> So it was more than just sensor detection. I could actually sense when it was being tested based on a combination of inputs, including dynamometer testing where the front wheels were turning/under load with the rear wheels stationary. Pretty clever stuff.




Maybe that explains why they won't bring the Golf Wagon with AWD and TDI to the States.


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## jglavin PE (Sep 23, 2015)

snickerd3 said:


> Would this incident stop you from buying a VW in the future? Other than the initial financial hit, i think people that buy VW are still going to buy VW.


I'm not exactly a diehard fan but when we compared my car against the competition it won out on fuel economy specs while being subjectively more fun to drive than the other comparable cars. If they can't compete like that without cheating I guess I'd go elsewhere.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Sep 23, 2015)

I avoid German cars for their stupid high maintenance costs. The 2006 Jetta I had would cost more for an oil change (little 2.5L 5 cylinder ~$200) than my Camaro (6.2L V8 ~$120).


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## Ship Wreck PE (Sep 23, 2015)

That's an expensive oil change??^^^


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## MetsFan (Sep 23, 2015)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> I avoid German cars for their stupid high maintenance costs. The 2006 Jetta I had would cost more for an oil change (little 2.5L 5 cylinder ~$200) than my Camaro (6.2L V8 ~$120).




$200 for an oil change? What the hell kind of oil were they using?

I own a Touareg V6, non TDI, so this doesn't really affect me. I would probably still get an Audi as my next car, or a Cayman as my midlife crisis car.


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## engineergurl (Sep 23, 2015)

MetsFan said:


> Dexman PE PMP said:
> 
> 
> > I avoid German cars for their stupid high maintenance costs. The 2006 Jetta I had would cost more for an oil change (little 2.5L 5 cylinder ~$200) than my Camaro (6.2L V8 ~$120).
> ...






VW has their own oil or something if I remember right, when we got rid of the passat we had I gave a jug of the stuff that had a bug


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## MetsFan (Sep 23, 2015)

I used to take our 2002 Jetta to Valvoline and get an oil change for $40. I think the max we paid was $70 for their high mileage/half synthetic stuff. I haven't had to pay for an oil change on the Touareg yet, so I'll find out soon enough I guess.


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## jglavin PE (Sep 23, 2015)

I honestly don't know what an oil change will cost on my '13 Jetta, because I'm still in the window of free oil changes at the dealer (they give you the first 30k miles free).

I guess I'll find out in a few thousand miles, but if they want $200 for a regular oil change I have plenty of tools at home, and for that kind of money I can make the time.


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## Supe (Sep 24, 2015)

You people and your expensive-ass oil changes. $6/qt for full synthetic + good filter = $40-$50 tops. If you own a C7 corvette with a dry sump that takes 10.5 quarts, call it $75...


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## jglavin PE (Sep 24, 2015)

engineergurl said:


> MetsFan said:
> 
> 
> > Dexman PE PMP said:
> ...




They want you to think that, but in fact there are lots of products on the market that meet their standard. Mobil 1 is fine even for the newest diesel volkswagens if you buy the correct type. There are other brands too, I think it has to be synthetic or blended though. My dad's got a 2003 TDI and for that car he buys something blend called Excelon ST, made by D-A. Not sure on price, it comes through a distributor.

Its the same with coolant, they tell you it has to be VW brand but really there are lots of ones at Auto Zone that meet the spec. And windshield wipers...

They force their customers to become resourceful or make them pay out the ass for everything. Kind of annoying for sure.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (Sep 24, 2015)

Does "paying out the ass" mean it's dirty money, which in turn needs laundering.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Sep 24, 2015)

I would hope any money that has spent time in anyone's ass is cleaned before it's use.


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## Road Guy (Sep 24, 2015)

Lol...Man i just spewed out my salad from the salad bar while enjoying dinner at the strip club


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## engineergurl (Sep 24, 2015)

Road Guy said:


> Lol...Man i just spewed out my salad from the salad bar while enjoying dinner at the strip club




they have salad bars at strip clubs.... who tosses the salad there?


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## Ship Wreck PE (Sep 24, 2015)

Road Guy said:


> Lol...Man i just spewed out my salad from the salad bar while enjoying dinner at the strip club


You did not invite all of us??


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## Road Guy (Sep 24, 2015)

Sorry it was last minute...


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## Ship Wreck PE (Sep 24, 2015)

Did you behave?


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## Ramnares P.E. (Sep 25, 2015)




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## MA_PE (Oct 4, 2015)

engineergurl said:


> Road Guy said:
> 
> 
> > Lol...Man i just spewed out my salad from the salad bar while enjoying dinner at the strip club
> ...


Most of the patrons....... if the strippers are any good, but they wait until later, but you can pay extra and have it tossed at the club.


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## Wolverine (Oct 5, 2015)

Many years ago, in some twisted effort to disassociate it's name from the Classic VW culture, VW-Int'l went on a jihad to crack down on parts suppliers for old VW's - Beetles &amp; Ghias &amp; Buses &amp; Type IV Wagons (who everybody knows had the best engines). They were going after mom &amp; pop suppliers for whatever they had on the shelves if it had a VW label on it. It was twisted in the sense that THEY no longer supplied these parts, but they didn't want anybody else supplying them either, even though there's really not much other thing to call a classic VW part. It's ridiculous to try to stop people from calling a classic VW a VW. So at the same time they were trying to promote the classic VW image with the New Beetles, they were destroying the real classic VW culture. It was not well-received.

And oh, btw, new beetles sucked. Reap what you have sown VW. Karma's a fickle bitch.


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## knight1fox3 (Oct 6, 2015)




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## MA_PE (Oct 6, 2015)

Easiest and correct way to resolve this is for the governement to fine the snot out of VW (if the company goes down the tubes....so what) for violating the laws and just exempt the affected affected cars from emissions testing and them keep operating as is. This is an "environmental" issue and not a safety issue. End users and consumers are not to blame and aside from the non-compliance with emissions the cars function the way the consumers expected them to. Tough rockos on any loss of resale value. You can't predict resale anyway. There are so many federal and state emissions exempt vehicles as it is, that I can't see group of vehicles affecting the environment significantly if they conform or don't.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 6, 2015)

MA_PE said:


> Easiest and correct way to resolve this is for the governement to fine the snot out of VW (if the company goes down the tubes....so what) for violating the laws and just exempt the affected affected cars from emissions testing and them keep operating as is. This is an "environmental" issue and not a safety issue. End users and consumers are not to blame and aside from the non-compliance with emissions the cars function the way the consumers expected them to. Tough rockos on any loss of resale value. You can't predict resale anyway. There are so many federal and state emissions exempt vehicles as it is, that I can't see group of vehicles affecting the environment significantly if they conform or don't.


This


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## Road Guy (Oct 6, 2015)

I would like to see our government hand out a very stiff fine to this foreign company, have to make an example out of someone...


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## jglavin PE (Oct 8, 2015)

MA_PE said:


> Easiest and correct way to resolve this is for the governement to fine the snot out of VW (if the company goes down the tubes....so what) for violating the laws and just exempt the affected affected cars from emissions testing and them keep operating as is. This is an "environmental" issue and not a safety issue. End users and consumers are not to blame and aside from the non-compliance with emissions the cars function the way the consumers expected them to. Tough rockos on any loss of resale value. You can't predict resale anyway. There are so many federal and state emissions exempt vehicles as it is, that I can't see group of vehicles affecting the environment significantly if they conform or don't.


From what I've seen recently VW has not ruled out compensating customers for lost resale value, as a goodwill gesture. As an owner I don't really want the money, I'd rather they leave my car alone and get on with life.


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## MA_PE (Oct 8, 2015)

In my opinion when caught defying regulations for sales in a specific country through blatently deceptive engineering, the company should pay enormous fines to the regulators of that country and then have sanctions against them from doing business in the country period.

This isn't an oversight it's downright criminal and decptive.

All these other recalls like the whole ignition thing are engineering glitches and have caused some safety issues, but the number of occurances is pretty small given the total number of vehicles affected. Sorry people you can't have a 100% success rate at anything.


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