# DONE with United Airlines



## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Will never fly them again....horrible.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 10, 2017)

United's customer service has been shit for years. It sucks that one of the world's best airlines (Air New Zealand) is partnered with them, so now anytime we fly back to the US we're stuck with them.


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## snickerd3 (Apr 10, 2017)

most airlines don't let anyone board the plane until they have the enough people off the roster. United dropped the ball on this one.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

so whats the back story on that?


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> so whats the back story on that?


The airline decided they needed to fly some crew.  Plane was full.  Several passengers were asked to disembark.  Princess here decides to throw a tantrum when he is asked to leave (in accordance with the stipulations of his ticket) and when they try to forcefully remove him, his head gets knocked around a bit.  Can't say I feel too sorry for him in any case, but dang!


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> so whats the back story on that?


United overbooked the flight. For some idiotic reason, they boarded anyway. They offered a $400+hotel+rebook incentive to get volunteers....then bumped it to $800+previously mentioned extras....still no takers. Then they said the computer had the manifest of passengers and was "pulling 4 randoms" to get the book. This guy got selected. He said he's a doctor in or around Louisville (the plane's destination) and had to get to a hospital the next day to check on patients. Thus, he would not be giving up his seat and refused. So United thought the right thing to do was bring airport police on board, cause an incident and drag a guy out of his seat. In the process, he hit his head on an adjacent seat across the aisle and suffered a laceration to the lip and was knocked unconscious.

The 4 people that "needed" to be on the flight....4 United employees that needed to be in Louisville the next day.....in other words, NON-CUSTOMERS.

Everything about this was wrong, from the very beginning. Poor procedures, poor execution, poor corrective action, poor conflict resolution.....ALL WRONG.

Nobody deserves to be treated like that. I'm done with them.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

to get the boot*


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

The FAA needs to outlaw the practice of overbooking. There is no reason why it should be legal to do that. Somebody bought the ticket for the seat, regardless of whether or not it's filled.

Deregulation was one of the worst things to ever happen to the airline industry. It has sucked ever since.


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## kevo_55 (Apr 10, 2017)

$800 + hotel + rebook incentive seems the better deal than to get slapped around.

That couldn't the only flight that day, right?


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

it does sound like a very shitty thing for them to do but at the same token, its not like its "your plane"  I hate doctors attitudes, so unless this guy was performing some kind of open heart surgery on a 10 year old then he should have just said this sucks and then go about his way....


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## snickerd3 (Apr 10, 2017)

simple solution...no fancy math or algorithms needed...the computer should know who the last 4 tickets sold belonged too. those should have been the 4 people.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

kevo_55 said:


> $800 + hotel + rebook incentive seems the better deal than to get slapped around.
> 
> That couldn't the only flight that day, right?


I would have taken the deal if they could somehow book me on a flight that at least got close (within a 2 hour car ride radius), thrown in all those extras and booked a one-way rental car at the closest airport so I could at least drive home.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 10, 2017)

The other issue with bumping customers is that they often have reservations on the other side that are beyond their cancellation/modification date. If you miss your first day, your hotel/rental car is forfeit and you're still on the hook for at least a portion of it. Typically the $400/$800 offer is not cash, but instead a voucher for future flights which is essentially worthless unless you plan on travelling again soon.

Only time I've considered taking their offer is on a return flight


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

snickerd3 said:


> simple solution...no fancy math or algorithms needed...the computer should know who the last 4 tickets sold belonged too. those should have been the 4 people.


Yeah. It does seem like theres a simple way to do it as you said. Just invalidate their boarding pass and don't let them on the plane to begin with.....much easier than this.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> The other issue with bumping customers is that they often have reservations on the other side that are beyond their cancellation/modification date. If you miss your first day, your hotel/rental car is forfeit and you're still on the hook for at least a portion of it. Typically the $400/$800 offer is not cash, but instead a voucher for future flights which is essentially worthless unless you plan on travelling again soon.
> 
> Only time I've considered taking their offer is on a return flight


Yeah....true. If it's really $800, it needs to be just that. Have the handy-dandy United Airlines checkbook there and just start writing them.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

The other thing I thought of is that if the airlines continue the terrible practice of overbooking, have a TSA/FAA mandate that says you (as an airline) will not receive assistance from TSA or any other law enforcement agency (federal or local) in removing a passenger in the case of an overbook. It's essentially a civil dispute and it's not law enforcement's jobs to do the airline's dirty work.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> The other thing I thought of is that if the airlines continue the terrible practice of overbooking, have a TSA/FAA mandate that says you (as an airline) will not receive assistance from TSA or any other law enforcement agency (federal or local) in removing a passenger in the case of an overbook. It's essentially a civil dispute and it's not law enforcement's jobs to do the airline's dirty work.


The passengers didn't create the problem. They contractually lived up to every facet of their end to pay the fair for transportation delivered. It's the airline's problem, not law enforcement's.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

yeah if you walk down the aisle and hand me 8 ben franklins then I am going to be more likely to offer up my seat...

but most all these airlines are brainwashed, my niece has been a flight attendant for Delta for a year and to hear her talk she can arrest people and FLY the plane if she needed to..


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> yeah if you walk down the aisle and hand me 8 ben franklins then I am going to be more likely to offer up my seat...
> 
> but most all these airlines are brainwashed, my niece has been a flight attendant for Delta for a year and to hear her talk she can arrest people and FLY the plane if she needed to..


One-handed, blindfolded, AND still mix a $9 G&amp;T on that drink buggy. :thumbs:


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

I've been told flying is easy. It's landing that's hard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## thekzieg (Apr 10, 2017)

Literally makes me sick watching this poor guy getting dragged from his seat. No one deserves to be treated like that.

The other part that gets me is that it's a flight from Chicago to Louisville...if you need your employees there so badly, rent a fucking car and drive them the 5 hours OR put their asses on a greyhound bus. It's like they forgot what the word "Customer" means.


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## thekzieg (Apr 10, 2017)

An embarrassing viral video of a man being forcibly dragged off a United Airlines flight has resulted in an officer with the Chicago Department of Aviation police force being placed on leave.

“The incident on United flight 3411 *was not in accordance with our standard operating procedure* and the actions of the aviation security officer are obviously not condoned by the Department,” Aviation Department spokesperson Karen Pride wrote in an email to the Chicago Sun-Times.

http://chicago.suntimes.com/news/video-appears-to-show-passenger-being-removed-from-united-flight/


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

thekzieg PE said:


> Literally makes me sick watching this poor guy getting dragged from his seat. No one deserves to be treated like that.
> 
> The other part that gets me is that it's a flight from Chicago to Louisville...if you need your employees there so badly, rent a fucking car and drive them the 5 hours OR put their asses on a greyhound bus. It's like they forgot what the word "Customer" means.


Apparently the union contract required they be flown.  And by the same token, why didn't the temper tantrum throwing doctor just opt to drive?


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## mudpuppy (Apr 10, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> Apparently the union contract required they be flown.




That's kind of crazy, considering a bus is way more comfortable than a commercial airplane.  I've had Delta send me to my destination in a bus (twice) and in a taxi once.  Granted it takes longer, but it's more comfortable in the process.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

The more I watch the video the more the doctor looks like a whiny little bitch and less of a victim


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> The more I watch the video the more the doctor looks like a whiny little bitch and less of a victim


I doubt the doc's lawyers, the judge, and jury (if it goes to trial) will feel the same way.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> The more I watch the video the more the doctor looks like a whiny little bitch and less of a victim


If any part of the video made me sick it was that guy acting like a two year old.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Heck of a headline though... "Big corporate airline screws up; beats up doctor. Lawyers to sort it all out."


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## thekzieg (Apr 10, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> Apparently the union contract required they be flown.  And by the same token, why didn't the temper tantrum throwing doctor just opt to drive?






Road Guy said:


> The more I watch the video the more the doctor looks like a whiny little bitch and less of a victim


Are you guys kidding me? Are you really siding with the _now suspended _officer who knocked out a nearly 70-year-old dude? COME ON. The Dr. isn't throwing a tantrum so much as being rightly outraged at being assaulted. His mouth is fucking bloody.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Everything was wrong about this. Even if the union contract said the relief crew had to be flown, it would have been better and cheaper to sort out a union grievance than to assault a passenger.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

This is why I think that only the police should have guns! Oh wait...


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

thekzieg PE said:


> Are you guys kidding me? Are you really siding with the _now suspended _officer who knocked out a nearly 70-year-old dude? COME ON. The Dr. isn't throwing a tantrum so much as being rightly outraged at being assaulted. His mouth is fucking bloody.


No one here has said his treatment was proper.  Are you seriously suggesting that the airline should give in to any tom dick or harry that decides to throw a tantrum and not get off the plane when they are asked?  It's not kindergarten, it doesn't work to just say "stop or I'll say stop again".  Clearly it escalated beyond where it needed to, but the guy holds a lot of culpability in that.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> This is why I think that only the police should have guns! Oh wait...


I was thinking THANK GOD that none of them drew their side arm. It was already a dangerous enough situation, putting other passengers unnecessarily at risk too. If a misfire had damaged the plane or even-worse a bystander, it would have further compounded an already terrible situation.


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## thekzieg (Apr 10, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> No one here has said his treatment was proper.  Are you seriously suggesting that the airline should give in to any tom dick or harry that decides to throw a tantrum and not get off the plane when they are asked?  It's not kindergarten, it doesn't work to just say "stop or I'll say stop again".  Clearly it escalated beyond where it needed to, but the guy holds a lot of culpability in that.


I'm saying the airline should respect that a doctor who has to see patients needs to be on the flight more than someone else. Not all travel reasons are created equal. There ought to be some understanding that these are human beings and not statistics and numbers. 

Plenty of airlines have been giving into the toms, dicks, and Harrys who throw tantrums about having brown people on their flights, so why shouldn't they give in for an actually reasonable request?


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

What a bunch of BS.  United is a business - they have to deal with situations like this in the same manner as a business, in other words, using good customer service.  I don't care how whiny the guy looked, I will fully support whatever legal penalty the courts impose on United and the airport cops in this case.

I've been treated like shit by United stewardesses before, for having a 3 year old autistic child tantrumming about having a seatbelt on. As we were sitting on the tarmac waiting for the door to be closed, a stewardess walked by and told me to buckle him up now, she didn't care about my plan to put the belt on as soon as we started to move back from the gate (still many minutes away).  When I tried to explain that that would minimize the screaming, she didn't hesitate, and shouted to her supervisor "I have an uncooperative passenger!" and it was like I was instantly Al Quada, and i had to beg her to stop the Inquisition and let me put his fucking seatbelt on, after which of course he screamed and cried and made life miserable for everyone around him for the next 20 minutes while we sat there.  I have not willingly flown on united since then - they empower their employee to be little Nazis.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

I think I would actually have more sympathy for the passenger if he were anything other than a doctor. Let's face it 90% of doctors don't really do anything exciting but cash ridiculous paychecks and treat everyone else like their time is less valuable than others...

Yeah I am sure some kids with acne were seriously damaged by not seeing their dermatologists...


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

Apparently, the way I get to avoid being booted from an overbooked flight (when my ticket contractually requires that I be so) is to just scream and yell "I'm a doctor" and throw a huge tantrum like a two year old.  Good to know I will have full public support in this.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> I think I would actually have more sympathy for the passenger if he were anything other than a doctor. Let's face it 90% of doctors don't really do anything exciting but cash ridiculous paychecks and treat everyone else like their time is less valuable than others...
> 
> Yeah I am sure some kids with acne were seriously damaged by not seeing their dermatologists...


Your negative view of doctor's has no bearing on the unjustified, unnecessary, and horrific actions taken on this passenger. This guy was treated like an animal and they put everyone else on the plane at risk to by being grossly negligent. I hope the doc gets a fortune off this.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

I can even throw in a claim of racism for good measure.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

If you buy a first class ticket they will never ask


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

I'm not the type to complain either. But this one was a no-brainer. It was wrong, however you look at it, regardless of what you think of the passenger's background or the tone in which he yells (while being assaulted, mind you).


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> If you buy a first class ticket they will never ask


No airline will ever ask again if overbooking is banned by law.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

Yep, the crazy screaming stuff happened when the security guy grabbed him and started forcibly pulling him off the plane. I don't believe there is any type of contract where that is allowable, outside mafia contracts anyway.


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## csb (Apr 10, 2017)

I'm looking at the fact that there were 175 other people on the plane who could have volunteered, but all thought they couldn't do so. Then you figure there are at least twenty or so people who can hear the guy being asked to get off the plane and hear him saying, "I'm a doctor" and all that jazz and STILL don't volunteer. Suddenly, when shit hits the fan, they don't even volunteer then, but grab their phones to start filming. 

No one else volunteered. You're telling me that entire plane couldn't be bothered to drive to Louisville instead of flying on that flight? 

Yeah, United screwed the pooch on this one. They limited compensation before they cried uncle and it's going to cost them dearly, but cripes. I think it's telling of the reactions of the fellow passengers.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> > 1 minute ago, Road Guy said: I think I would actually have more sympathy for the passenger if he were anything other than a doctor. Let's face it 90% of doctors don't really do anything exciting but cash ridiculous paychecks and treat everyone else like their time is less valuable than others... Yeah I am sure some kids with acne were seriously damaged by not seeing their dermatologists...
> 
> 
> Your negative view of doctor's has no bearing on the unjustified, unnecessary, and horrific actions taken on this passenger. This guy was treated like an animal and they put everyone else on the plane at risk to by being grossly negligent. I hope the doc gets a fortune off this.


It certainly does. He was asked "nicely" several times to get off the plane. He refused. Again he doesn't own the plane. The owners of the plane decided he and three others needed to go. 3 people said oh well this sucks and got off the plane, this 1 person acted like a bitch and got treated like one. I hope he doesn't get a cent.

I fault the doctor more so than I do the blue collar cops who are just doing the airlines bidding...there was no reason for him to think he was anymore important than anyone else on the plane..

Why is no one crying for the 3 that did what was asked of them?


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

csb said:


> I'm looking at the fact that there were 175 other people on the plane who could have volunteered, but all thought they couldn't do so. Then you figure there are at least twenty or so people who can hear the guy being asked to get off the plane and hear him saying, "I'm a doctor" and all that jazz and STILL don't volunteer. Suddenly, when shit hits the fan, they don't even volunteer then, but grab their phones to start filming.
> 
> No one else volunteered. You're telling me that entire plane couldn't be bothered to drive to Louisville instead of flying on that flight?
> 
> Yeah, United screwed the pooch on this one. They limited compensation before they cried uncle and it's going to cost them dearly, but cripes. I think it's telling of the reactions of the fellow passengers.


Yeah. If they were that desperate and knew what was gonna happen, I would have squeezed at least $1500 out of em.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

csb said:


> I'm looking at the fact that there were 175 other people on the plane who could have volunteered, but all thought they couldn't do so. Then you figure there are at least twenty or so people who can hear the guy being asked to get off the plane and hear him saying, "I'm a doctor" and all that jazz and STILL don't volunteer. Suddenly, when shit hits the fan, they don't even volunteer then, but grab their phones to start filming.
> 
> No one else volunteered. You're telling me that entire plane couldn't be bothered to drive to Louisville instead of flying on that flight?
> 
> Yeah, United screwed the pooch on this one. They limited compensation before they cried uncle and it's going to cost them dearly, but cripes. I think it's telling of the reactions of the fellow passengers.


And not only that, about the limit to United's culpability in the whole scenario was that they &lt;gasp&gt; called security.  Security and the Chicago police came and kicked the man's ass.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> It certainly does. He was asked "nicely" several times to get off the plane. He refused. Again he doesn't own the plane. The owners of the plane decided he and three others needed to go. 3 people said oh well this sucks and got off the plane, this 1 person acted like a bitch and got treated like one. I hope he doesn't get a cent.
> 
> I fault the doctor more so than I do the blue collar cops who are just doing the airlines bidding...there was no reason for him to think he was anymore important than anyone else on the plane..
> 
> Why is no one crying for the 3 that did what was asked of them?


I feel bad for the other passengers. I feel bad for the cops. I don't know the other passengers' stories. I only know the doc's in this one. As for the cops, I feel terrible for them too. They should not be in a position of doing airline's dirty work. The policy ought to be from law enforcement to the airlines: This is YOUR problem. YOU made it. YOU'RE gonna solve it. It's not our job to remove passengers form your overbooked flight because you can't understand the concept of one physical passenger per seat.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

^Exactly.


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## leggo PE (Apr 10, 2017)

I just don't know how over-selling a flight is even allowed. I've seen it happen to someone before the flight I was on was boarded. It didn't make any sense to me, but it was handled far better than any of this was.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> I feel bad for the other passengers. I feel bad for the cops. I don't know the other passengers' stories. I only know the doc's in this one. As for the cops, I feel terrible for them too. They should not be in a position of doing airline's dirty work. The policy ought to be from law enforcement to the airlines: This is YOUR problem. YOU made it. YOU'RE gonna solve it. It's not our job to remove passengers form your overbooked flight because you can't understand the concept of one physical passenger per seat.


Except that's not how it works.  If someone is in your home and starts acting unruly... you ask them to leave and they don't, what do you do?  A lot of people call the cops.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

It's not a house, it's a place of business and the guy paid for a service.  That's NOT how to treat a customer.  I hope United gets royally fucked in court.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> Except that's not how it works.  If someone is in your home and starts acting unruly... you ask them to leave and they don't, what do you do?  A lot of people call the cops.


I don't think he was acting "unruly." He was simply stating that he was not giving up the seat hat he legally and validly paid for and had a pressing need to be on that plane.


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## leggo PE (Apr 10, 2017)

I also, in general, don't fly much any more. But I prefer JetBlue over nearly every other national airline out there. And now that they are partnered with Hawaiian Airline, yay!

Also, I'm excited to try Virgin for the first time in June!


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

Dleg said:


> It's not a house, it's a place of business and the guy paid for a service.  That's NOT how to treat a customer.  I hope United gets royally fucked in court.


It's a private business with contractual rules for the passengers being there.  The contract was broken by the customer.  I hope any blame for rough treatment is placed where it belongs: on security and the police.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 10, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> I've been told flying is easy. It's landing that's hard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


@Flyer_PE, is this true? :huh:


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> It's a private business with contractual rules for the passengers being there.  The contract was broken by the customer.  I hope any blame for rough treatment is placed where it belongs: on security and the police.


Again, what legal contract do you know of where once you have paid for a service, the business can not only deny you the service as a result of a random selection  but also have you forcibly removed from the service?


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Suitable (Potential) Solutions for This:

1. Overbooking is banned by law.....YESTERDAY.

2. Law enforcement have a "no-intervention" policy strictly for cases of overbooking.

3. A hefty fine is assigned to airlines holding up a gate for every 10 minutes they delay departure due to their inability to figure out 1 seat = 1 physical passenger. This get more corporate skin in the game.

4. The overbooking compensation keeps increasing with no cap until enough passengers take it.

5. Overbooking compensations come in the form of certified checks, to be delivered no later than 2 weeks after affected flight.

6. The relief crew gets a bus. United pays the fine associated with the grievance.

Any one of the above would have resolved the situation that occurred yesterday, far before it escalated where it did and for way less trouble.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

Dleg said:


> Again, what legal contract do you know of where once you have paid for a service, the business can not only deny you the service as a result of a random selection  but also have you forcibly removed from the service?


Only airline contracts.  But it's a contract millions of people agree to every day, and it's not unique to United.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

The real problem here is the police-like authority that airline employees feel that they have gained since 9-11.  If this were any other customer-service situation, a manager would have come on board, given up immediatley on the doctor, then calmly explained the situation to the rest of the plane, (we're not taking off until someone gives their seat up") and then sat there until someone did.  Utterly stupid.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> Only airline contracts.  But it's a contract millions of people agree to every day.


it says you can be forcibly removed from the plane due to overbooking?  I am pretty sure I have not seen that on my tickets.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

And I have no love for the airline.

They don't have to care about customer service because like the people CSB pointed out- no one really gives a shit unless it applies to them.

Anyone notice their is no film of the cops asking dude to get off plane?

Check out those people pulling out their iPhone 8's and recording it and saying "that's terrible". Stewardess - will we take off soon?

I'll wager everyone in this thread dinner that the cop is only on leave because that's what happens when one gets in the news and then they investigate and find the cop didn't do anything wrong (while we move on to the next Harambe story) &amp; also that the airlines doesn't pay out more to this "doctor" than $10k


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

Dleg said:


> Audi driver said:
> 
> 
> > 2 minutes ago, Audi driver, P.E. said: It's a private business with contractual rules for the passengers being there.  The contract was broken by the customer.  I hope any blame for rough treatment is placed where it belongs: on security and the police.
> ...


Sporting events

Concerts

Movies

Hotels

Etc

Read the back of those tix stubs.

Additionally

My kids teacher got hit by a fly ball at a braves game and had to have major surgery - was out of work a year - and the braves paid $0.0.


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> Sporting events
> 
> Concerts
> 
> ...


At least they didn't sell her seat twice and get everyone in the stadium and be like "crap...we can't play the ballgame until we figure out what to do about these bleachers."


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> At least they didn't sell her seat twice and get everyone in the stadium and be like "crap...we can't play the ballgame until we figure out what to do about these bleachers."


That being said. The Braves can barely sell a seat once, let alone twice.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 10, 2017)

If you think Airline prices are high now, wait until they don't overbook flights!


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## csb (Apr 10, 2017)

leggo said:


> Also, I'm excited to try Virgin for the first time in June!


I, too, would like to try a virgin in June. 

I was once on a flight where I was standby, but they gave me a ticket and I was on the plane, buckled in, when I hear the flight attendants talking about how they are short a seat and they don't know how and they think it's because a lap child is in a paid seat, but instead of walking back to find out, they page me. Now, they botch my last name, so I briefly think of just acting dumb and still flying home. But here's the thing- I'm seated next to a blind guy and I panic that he can sense that I'm that person and I raise my hand and get off the plane, furious that they didn't check for the lap child. 

1. I'm not sure why I thought blind people have super powers. 

2. I got off the plane when they called my name, even though I was in a seat.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

I am just glad I do not fly very much!


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 10, 2017)

So what about United's obligation to the other 170+ passengers? If they don't take off, then the airline is in breach of the other 170 contracts. Plus, now the plane is delayed at the gate which will impact both future flights at that gate (next plane waiting to unload) and the flight this plane is scheduled for at the next airport. These major international airports operate on schedules down to the minute. If one plane is off, there is a domino effect for the rest of the day impacting thousands of passengers at dozens of airports.

One person versus hundreds. I think this is a case of the "greater good."

Was this handled the best it could have been? Of course not. The passenger escalated things, the airline escalated things, and in the end everyone lost.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

Any pimply teenager who has worked a minimum of 3 months at a McDonald's would have been able to handle this without the same, extreme results as these "professionals" at United, because he/she has to deal with assholes every hour of their shift, every day they work, with absolutely no power to do anything but appease the customer.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

so just for discussion, lets say they are at the point where they have drawn names and chosen 4 people to be removed and you have this 1 dude who wont comply, other than dragging the guy out of the seat what other options could they have done? I am assuming they were already at the point where no one else "volunteered"  to take another flight?


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

You start negotiating. Clearly the doctor isn't going to cave, so you announce to the plane that it can't leave until one more person gives up their seat.  Re-state the offer, and increase it if you are able to.  But the plane doesn't leave until someone gives up a seat.  If nobody takes you up in 10 minutes (or whatever), make one of the United employees stay back.


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)




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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

Dleg said:


> You start negotiating. Clearly the doctor isn't going to cave, so you announce to the plane that it can't leave until one more person gives up their seat.  Re-state the offer, and increase it if you are able to.  But the plane doesn't leave until someone gives up a seat.  If nobody takes you up in 10 minutes (or whatever), make one of the United employees stay back.


From what I have read that all happened for an extended period of time......


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## Dleg (Apr 10, 2017)

I read that they made offers of money and tickets, but I haven't read anything to suggest that they held the plane back or that they took care of this before letting passengers board, which only increased the trouble.  I also haven't read that they attempted to pull one of their employees - not all were pilots.


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

It sounds like the whole ordeal took 3 hours (while people were on the plane)-

Yeah I don't think they offered to hold their crew up- but why should they it's their plane- but if you are the front line person and are being told to make the guy get up i am sure that question came up and their bosses said no- I am not sure what else you do?

Including the flight attendants I mean these people are basically one step away from working at a sears or wal mart.

We'll just have to wait and see what Rachel Maddox has to say about all this!


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## TNSparky (Apr 10, 2017)

Ethics come to mind here. Specifically, Jeff Goldblum. So what if United was "within their contract" here???


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)




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## Flyer_PE (Apr 10, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> TNSparky said:
> 
> 
> > I've been told flying is easy. It's landing that's hard. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
> ...


To a certain extent, it is.  In a tricycle gear aircraft with no appreciable cross-wind, anybody can pretty much firewall the throttle and get in the air.  Keeping it there can be a bit of a trick.

One of my favorite sayings is still: "Flying is the second biggest thrill on earth.  Landing is the first."


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 10, 2017)

Flyer_PE said:


> One of my favorite sayings is still: "Flying is the second biggest thrill on earth.  Landing is the first."


A friend in the Air Force ROTC had a plaque on the wall with this on it. He flew fighter jets after graduating, now has a desk job (still in the AF).


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## Road Guy (Apr 10, 2017)

Want to talk about a real crime?

A guy at work (new to area) took spirit airlines and didn't pay attention to those emails and other "small print" - rushed to gate only to find they wouldn't allow him to take a "carry on" bag without paying a late bag fee of $100!!!!


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 11, 2017)

View attachment 9316


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

http://www.staradvertiser.com/2017/04/10/breaking-news/united-ceo-defends-employees-in-plane-incident/

^^^ Tells you everything you need to know about United's values and culture right there. Very poor. Very nonchalant attitude towards customers. If we wanted to be treated like baggage or a package, we'd fly FedEx....would probably still get treated better on one of their planes than a United flight.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> http://www.staradvertiser.com/2017/04/10/breaking-news/united-ceo-defends-employees-in-plane-incident/
> 
> ^^^ Tells you everything you need to know about United's values and culture right there. Very poor. Very nonchalant attitude towards customers. If we wanted to be treated like baggage or a package, we'd fly FedEx....would probably still get treated better on one of their planes than a United flight.


If they can ship Waterford crystal and have it arrive not broken (in most cases), I like my odds.


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## mudpuppy (Apr 11, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> It's a private business with contractual rules for the passengers being there.  The contract was broken by the customer.  I hope any blame for rough treatment is placed where it belongs: on security and the police.


Have you ever actually read the contract that goes with a plane ticket?  Here is United's:  https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx  It's a couple hundred pages long.  Show me what the guy did to violate it.

I've never read United's contract of carriage, but I have read Delta's (it's handy to know the actual rules when you fly 100 flights a year) and there are very specific procedures on how to handle an overbooking situation.  Without these specific procedures, the Department of Transportation (which regulates airline operations) would not allow an airline to overbook a flight.  From the reports I've read, it appears United did not follow their own procedures for bumping passengers from the flight (relying on randomness rather than a specific order based by time of check-in, etc.).  If these reports are true, then it is United that broke the contract, not the passenger.

I full support the passenger that refused to leave the plane if United was not following their own rules.  Airline gate agents tend to have a god complex and like to make up their own rules rather than follow the ones the airline has actually filed with the DOT.  It's very possible and probably likely that this passenger was having his rights violated, and I think because of this, in the end he'll probably settle for a large sum of money from the airline.

Something to keep in mind is this was likely not a flight run by United, but a 50 seat jet that is owned and operated by a subcontractor.  This likely played a role in the employees not being fully trained in the airline's procedures.


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## Flyer_PE (Apr 11, 2017)

The video has something on the order of 10 million views.  This is a PR nightmare for the airline.  Their stock is off around 5% in pre-market trading.  Their market cap just took a billion-dollar hit.  I bet they sure are glad they stopped the bidding at $800.00.

Too bad UAL is too big to fail.  If it were allowed to go bankrupt, maybe the assets would now be under competent management.


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## MA_PE (Apr 11, 2017)

mudpuppy said:


> Have you ever actually read the contract that goes with a plane ticket?  Here is United's:  https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx  It's a couple hundred pages long.  Show me what the guy did to violate it.
> 
> I've never read United's contract of carriage, but I have read Delta's (it's handy to know the actual rules when you fly 100 flights a year) and there are very specific procedures on how to handle an overbooking situation.  Without these specific procedures, the Department of Transportation (which regulates airline operations) would not allow an airline to overbook a flight.  From the reports I've read, it appears United did not follow their own procedures for bumping passengers from the flight (relying on randomness rather than a specific order based by time of check-in, etc.).  If these reports are true, then it is United that broke the contract, not the passenger.
> 
> ...


I'm with RG on this one.

In the contract provided my MP there is a specific section (Rule 25) addressing overbooking.  The process for denying passengers involuntarily is

"The priority of all other confirmed passengers may be determined based on a passenger’s fare class, itinerary, status of frequent flyer program membership, and the time in which the passenger presents him/herself for check-in without advanced seat assignment."

they outline compensation up to 400% of the ticket price+.

Rule 21 is Refusal of Transport and addressing removing people from the plane.  Reason number one is "Breach if the Contract of Carriage"

Bottom line is Mr. Whiny Doctor needed a better reason than "I want to go home".

Everytime someone stages a "sit-in" and then gets forcibly removed people are aghast that the so-called "pacifist" is handled roughly.  Planes are very cramped and trying to get someone forcibly off may result in someone getting whacked.  Rules are rules.  He was selected....bummer.  Get off the plane like the other 3 guys.  Take you money and get home later.  I suspect if this guy had a reasonable excuse like he had surgery scheduled or something then they would've picked someone else.  Also missing in this story is when they were going to put him on another flight or they could've driven him the 5 hours.  So we're really talking about 5-6 hours that this guy was whining about.  He should get NOTHING.


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## jeb6294 (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> I feel bad for the other passengers. I feel bad for the cops. I don't know the other passengers' stories. *I only know the doc's in this one*. As for the cops, I feel terrible for them too. They should not be in a position of doing airline's dirty work. The policy ought to be from law enforcement to the airlines: *This is YOUR problem. YOU made it. YOU'RE gonna solve* it. It's not our job to remove passengers form your overbooked flight because you can't understand the concept of one physical passenger per seat.


No you don't.  You're just one more in a long line of sheep preaching how awful United is.  Look into it a little more than your Facebook feed and you would know that United has a system in place to figure out who would be the least inconvenienced by having to take another flight.  He was going to Louisville, not trying to make a connection in Louisville.  They spent quite a bit of time with him trying to explain this to him and get him off the plane.  I'm willing to bet they told him they'd get him on another flight at a later time but he preached to them that, how dare they, because he's a doctor.

Yeah, United was trying to make room to move their people around.  It happens.  Get over it.  It's their business and that's how things work sometimes to keep the flights going where they need to go.  They did what was within their power to try and remedy the situation.  Once he refused to leave because "he's a doctor", he's no different than any other unruly passenger who has been forcibly removed from a plane.

BTW, if it was so vital that he be in Louisville, then I'm willing to be that the hospital/doctor would have made different arrangements to get him there.  Flights are delayed/cancelled all the time.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 11, 2017)

Here's a perspective from another airline employee. Not agreeing/disagreeing, just posting for discussion.



> Not knowing the full details, I must come to the defense of United Airlines, although I do believe they mishandled the situation. When a crew MUST be flown to cover a trip, this is called "deadheading a crew." To further clarify, a passenger CAN have a ticket/seat, etc. but may be on stand by status, as he/she is confirmed for a later flight but is considered Stand By Status for an earlier flight. This past weekend was a traveler's nightmare; tornadoes, hail storms, thunderstorms, wind shear, logistical chaos for air travel. Delta had it's own share of chaos, with stranded passengers, stranded crew members, re-routed crews, shortage of hotel rooms, etc. Now, compound this drama with FAA rules and regulations which dictate that crews must have legal rest breaks after lengthy duty days, Delta purchased 450 PIZZAS to feed stranded passengers, extra supplies of food/beverage/snacks, etc, PLUS Medallion Level Loyalty customers, volunteering their time to help the operation, etc. Yes, nerves are stretched and frustration mounts and unfortunate situations happen. I'm sure there is so much more to the United story than what is being reported. I know the removed passenger/doctor was offered monetary compensation and somehow it escalated from there. Another couple was removed from the flight without incident. From the looks of the videos I have viewed, this removed man seems quite irrational, quick to enrage, and then after he is injured/bloodied, he is babbling and disoriented. All of this behavior is an FAA violation of many sorts: interfering with crew member duties, threatening the safety of the flight and it's passengers, etc. I'm sure there's enough blame to go around, but if removing 4 passengers so a deadheading crew can cover a trip in Louisville, then that is a necessary step to save another entire aircraft of passengers from being stranded. Just my humble observation and I'm sure there's much more to this story. Air travel is an imperfect science, subjected to the whims of Mother Nature and there is a factor/formula for overbooking by different percentages for different markets. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Hotels also overbook for the same reason. The objective is 100% occupancy. Just my humble opinion.....


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## csb (Apr 11, 2017)

Flight attendants are part of the flight crew and as such are subject to the same crew rest periods required by the FAA. For the most part they just get you Coke, but they also are the ones who are supposed to get your ass off the burning plane.


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## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

Can I get a LOL?

http://mix967online.iheart.com/articles/jbs-feed-501625/united-airlines-doctor-convicted-of-exchanging-15729297/?cmp=managed_social


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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)

Whatever your argument may be, United is a business that only survives because customers are willing to pay a price for a service.  Now there may be a minority of people who will fly with them no matter what, but most people will see treatment like this, and arguments like those presented above in defense of such treatment, and choose to fly another airline.  Tough shit.  That's the free market in action.  I haven't willingly flown United since 2006 when they treated me like shit.  One of these days, and that might well be today, United is going to have to address their customer service problems or face extinction in the market.  No amount of fine print will change that reality.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 11, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> Can I get a LOL?
> 
> http://mix967online.iheart.com/articles/jbs-feed-501625/united-airlines-doctor-convicted-of-exchanging-15729297/?cmp=managed_social


Summary? Link blocked at work.


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## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

Doctor was charged and convicted of trading prescriptions  for sex, lost license in Kentucky in 2015 and then was reinstated with limited ability to practice..


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

It should be noted that not one United employee struck a passenger.


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## mudpuppy (Apr 11, 2017)

Dleg said:


> Whatever your argument may be, United is a business that only survives because customers are willing to pay a price for a service.  Now there may be a minority of people who will fly with them no matter what, but most people will see treatment like this, and arguments like those presented above in defense of such treatment, and choose to fly another airline.  Tough shit.  That's the free market in action.  I haven't willingly flown United since 2006 when they treated me like shit.  One of these days, and that might well be today, United is going to have to address their customer service problems or face extinction in the market.  No amount of fine print will change that reality.




The problem with this idea is there really aren't a lot of options.  There's only 4 major airlines in the U.S. that fly to the majority of destinations that people want to go to:  American, Delta, United and Southwest.  Between the legacy three (not Southwest) they basically have carved out certain regions that they control.  For instance, Michgian and Georgia are dominated by Delta, while North Carolina and Texas are dominated by American.  If you happen to live in a city that is dominated by United, you may not have a lot of choice without having to take an extra connection to get where you're going.

And for every person like you that's fed up with United, there is another that is fed up with American or Delta and won't fly them--so they end up taking your place at United.  The airlines all know this and that you have no real options, so they put the screws to passengers more and more every year.  And even though they're not officially monopolies, they all mimic each other's rules and fees almost instantly, so there is no real competition.

Southwest is the only nationwide carrier that offers real competition, but it too has it's drawbacks.


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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)

I've always been treated well with Delta (and previously Northwest - sorry to see them gone).  I have had excellent service on Alaskan.  Out in the Pacific islands/Asia, where the United staff were all former Continental employees, I their service was also very good.  United in the mainland feels like flying with TSA agents, or the bureau of motor vehicles.  I can only assume that this indicates a corporate culture of poor customer service, and a general sense that the employee is always right, contradicting centuries of market lessons.

Fortunately for me, even flying to United's hub, Denver, can be done just as cheaply through either of them from where I am.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

I have no love for United because they utilize planes that position the seats too close together, so I have no love for them, but to continue to berate the airline over this whole thing is just dumb.


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## csb (Apr 11, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> Can I get a LOL?
> 
> http://mix967online.iheart.com/articles/jbs-feed-501625/united-airlines-doctor-convicted-of-exchanging-15729297/?cmp=managed_social


Damn. No wonder he didn't want to miss the one day a week he's able to trade Oxy for Blowies.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

So, a United plane that asked four passengers to disembark was on a treadmill...


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## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

Its not yet poking through the "main stream" media yet, but I am seeing that this story is going to die off pretty quick..

so read this story and ask why does this guy still have a license? If any of us traded stamped plans for sex would we have a license? well maybe in Kentucky!

_The United Airlines passenger at the centre of an onboard brouhaha is a dirty doctor who was convicted of trading sex for pills._

_Dr. David Dao, 69, was captured on video being forcibly dragged off the Louisville, Ky.-bound flight at Chicago O’Hare Airport._

_The incident triggered a firestorm of bad publicity for United and security at O’Hare._

_But Dao is far from whistling clean._

_According to the Louisville Courier-Journal, the pulmonary disease specialist was convicted of trading prescription pills for sex with his patients in 2003._

_According to documents filed with the Kentucky Board of Medical Licensure, Dao was busted in 2003 on the drug-related offences following an undercover sting._

_The dirty doctor became sexually interested in a male patient named Brian Case. Dao gave Case a physical – including a genital exam._

_He then made Case his office manager. Case eventually quit because of Dao’s “inappropriate remarks”._

_But the poker-loving doctor continued to pursue Case and gave him prescription drugs in exchange for sex acts._

_In 2004, Dao was convicted of obtaining drugs by fraud or deceit. He was placed on five years of supervised probation, the Courier-Journal reported._

_The medical board said Dao had a sexual relationship with Case and supplied him with narcotics while his former office manager was a patient._

_Their trysts would take placed in low-rent hotel rooms._

_Dao was allowed to continue practicising medicine after probation and agreeing to a psychological evaluation._

_The newspaper said he attended medical school in Vietnam in the 1970s before moving to the U.S._

_He is a grandfather and father of five, according to the Daily Mail._

_His wife, Teresa Dao, is a pediatrician and four of their five children are doctors._

_Dao is also a gambling enthusiast, according to TMZ, even making a bundle at the World Series of Poker in Las Vegas._

_He hit the circuit in 2006 while his medical licence was suspended for illegally prescribing painkillers._

_Dao’s career earnings at the World Series of Poker are $234,664._


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## MA_PE (Apr 11, 2017)

Dr. D'bag

TMZ right on top of the latest news!


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## csb (Apr 11, 2017)

Also here:

http://www.courier-journal.com/story/news/local/2017/04/11/david-dao-passenger-removed-united-flight-doctor-troubled-past/100318320/

He's a pulmonologist giving genital exams. This is a dude who knows how to work an angle! 

Fun fact- his license shows up here, but the Board Action is crashing. I'm guessing this is the most hits the Kentucky Board of Med has ever seen. http://web1.ky.gov/GenSearch/LicenseList.aspx?AGY=5&amp;FLD1=Dao&amp;FLD2=&amp;FLD3=0&amp;FLD4=0&amp;TYPE=

But, to RG's original question, I'm sure there are engineers ALL OVER trading stamped plans for sexual favors. 

Well, mostly in New Jersey.


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## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

I am mainly targeting the Niagara Falls region


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## jeb6294 (Apr 11, 2017)

Maybe he was in such a hurry to get back because he didn't tell his parole officer that he was leaving town.


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## Supe (Apr 11, 2017)

He was probably rushing to test his pulmonary function at a low-cost motel.


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## willsee (Apr 11, 2017)

The writer of that Courier article is catching all kinds of her own hell right now.  She's being attacked by other media members here locally for victim shaming.  His past doesn't have anything to do with this really.

United should have offered more money to get people off of the plane - I'm sure the flight was more than $200.  Yes if it were me I would have taken the money and told them to pay for a rental car instead of a hotel room and just drove the 5 hours to Louisville, but he's not me.

In the end United will lose some stock, catch hell, then Trump will do something and this will be forgotten.


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## engineergurl (Apr 11, 2017)

Dleg said:


> I've always been treated well with Delta (and previously Northwest - sorry to see them gone).  I have had excellent service on Alaskan.  Out in the Pacific islands/Asia, where the United staff were all former Continental employees, I their service was also very good.  United in the mainland feels like flying with TSA agents, or the bureau of motor vehicles.  I can only assume that this indicates a corporate culture of poor customer service, and a general sense that the employee is always right, contradicting centuries of market lessons.
> 
> Fortunately for me, even flying to United's hub, Denver, can be done just as cheaply through either of them from where I am.


I refuse to fly Delta unless I can't avoid it (fat chance here, but still)...  I however love United, the way they treat our Military and families, and their rewards program... and in spite of the occasional poor experiences with individuals my flights (because it is usually individuals that are the ones who are screwing up), like MP said, I know and understand their policies and will continue to fly with them (free tickets or not)


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

Again, what he did or didn't do in his medical practice or personal life 10 years ago has ZERO bearing on what was done to him on Sunday. What was done to him was assault. Plain and simple. He's entitled to damages and the officers involved not only should be terminated but should have criminal charges filed against them. If I were the doc, I'd sue the airport police too.


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## MA_PE (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> Again, what he did or didn't do in his medical practice or personal life 10 years ago has ZERO bearing on what was done to him on Sunday. What was done to him was assault. Plain and simple. He's entitled to damages and the officers involved not only should be terminated but should have criminal charges filed against them. If I were the doc, I'd sue the airport police too.


TN quite frankly you sound like a broken record.  Read the contract terms that every United passenger agrees to (link posted above by mp).  He truly had no right to stay on that plane when he was asked to get off.  How is someone supposed to move non-compliant dead weight off the tight confines of an airplane?  He wasn't smacked around he fell and hit his face on an armrest.  He was perfectly capable of standing and exiting the plane and he refused causing problems for everyone else on the plane.

Any injuries he got, he brought on himself for not following the directive to get off the plane.  The guy was/is a royal PITA.


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## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

probably thought Mike Brown was the Good Guy also...


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

MA_PE said:


> TN quit frankly you sound like a broken record.  Read the contract terms that every United passenger agrees to (link posted above by mp).  He truly had no right to stay on that plane when he was asked to get off.  How is someone supposed to move non-compliant dead weight off the tight confines of an airplane?  He wasn't smacked around he fell and hit his face on an armrest.  He was perfectly capable of standing and exiting the plane and he refused causing problems for everyone else on the plane.
> 
> Any injuries he got, he brought on himself for not following the directive to get off the plane.  The guy was/is a royal PITA.


PITA he might be, but as I pointed out in my alternatives, there were AT LEAST 8 other ways to resolve this other than the method chosen, all of which would have resulted in a better outcome for everybody. And when the lawyers get done with United and the cops in court, I hope the amount is so steep that no airline will ever think about doing this again. There is ZERO reason for it, regardless of anyone's background.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> probably thought Mike Brown was the Good Guy also...


Not relevant.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> Not relevant.


And for the record (not that it matters), I thought the shooting was justified. I won't make a comment regarding one party or the other being a "good guy" or "bad guy." Somebody got shot (albeit, justified). Somebody died. There was little "good" about that other than the fact that the officer got to go home that day.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

I'm against using a police force to resolve a poor business decision. If it's not a CRIME, it's not the police's job. The man bought his seat and was sitting in it. There was no crime committed by him being on the plane. He was not threatening anyone or the aircraft.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> I'm against using a police force to resolve a poor business decision. If it's not a CRIME, it's not the police's job. The man bought his seat and was sitting in it. There was no crime committed by him being on the plane. He was not threatening anyone or the aircraft.


If someone comes in your home as an invited guest and then (for whatever reason) refuses to leave when you ask them to, what option would you choose?  Just continue to ask them to leave?


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> If someone comes in your home as an invited guest and then (for whatever reason) refuses to leave when you ask them to, what option would you choose?  Just continue to ask them to leave?


That's entirely different. That's trespassing and them entering my home was not based on a business transaction for any services to be rendered or goods to be delivered.


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## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

as dumb as it may sound, not "complying" with a flight attendants _direction _is actually some type of crime (similar to getting 10 years in prison for altering the fan in the lavatory) or something..something...


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> That's entirely different. That's trespassing and them entering my home was not based on a business transaction for any services to be rendered or goods to be delivered.


If the premise was "by invitation" the conclusion of that invitation would be based on a conclusion of an event organized by me.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> That's entirely different. That's trespassing and them entering my home was not based on a business transaction for any services to be rendered or goods to be delivered.


The moment he was not complying with the agreement, he was trespassing.  It's just as much a crime.  Same, same.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> The moment he was not complying with the agreement, he was trespassing.  It's just as much a crime.  Same, same.


He can make the argument that it was United that was not complying with the agreement they made to fly him to a specified location at a specified time.

Point is: it was handled 110% the wrong way by the airlines and the cops. The lawyers are gonna have a field day with this one both civilly and criminally and it's not going to go in United's favor. The bulk majority of the populace (any of which can be chosen for a jury) will see that there were many reasonable alternatives the airline/police could have done besides excessive use of force.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

Believe it or not, if someone is not being compliant (for whatever reason), the default reasonable action is not to beat the sh*t out of them.


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## TNSparky (Apr 11, 2017)

Reasonable Alternative:

Airline: "Sir, we need you to deboard."

Passenger in Question: "I can't I have a pressing need in the destination city that is time sensitive and I CANNOT miss this flight."

Airline on PA: "We'll offer $2000 in a certified check, hotel, transportation, membership in our super ultra level blah blah blah flight program, rebook you on a flight tomorrow, and give you a free round trip ticket...."

*Certain time passes with no takers*

Airline: "$2500....$3000..." etc.

Repeat until you have a taker. You'll get one pretty quick.

Problem solved.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> Believe it or not, if someone is not being compliant (for whatever reason), the default reasonable action is not to beat the sh*t out of them.


Once the whiny guy decided to not comply with the officers who were trying to LEGALLY remove him from a very tight space, I become pretty unconcerned what happens to him. Perhaps that is just because I am not a whiny guy that tends to not disobey the police, but instead acts politely. YMMV.


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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)




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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)




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## csb (Apr 11, 2017)

I'm also impressed that people were murdered inside an elementary school yesterday and we're still worried (society, not just eb.com) about a guy getting kicked off a flight.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)

http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/?utm_content=buffer01982&amp;utm_medium=social&amp;utm_source=facebook.com&amp;utm_campaign=buffer


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## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> http://viewfromthewing.boardingarea.com/2017/04/11/real-reason-man-dragged-off-united-flight-stop-happening/?utm_content=buffer01982&amp;utm_medium=social&amp;utm_source=facebook.com&amp;utm_campaign=buffer


This article basically says what I have been saying:



> [COLOR= rgb(51, 51, 51)]The [/COLOR]*real solution here is to change the culture of law enforcement in aviation*[COLOR= rgb(51, 51, 51)]. As soon as there’s even a misunderstanding between passengers and crew, that can trigger law enforcement. The assumption is that the passenger is always wrong, the airline backs its crew, and there’s tremendous risk to the public. [/COLOR]Not every customer service situation is a crime.


----------



## Dleg (Apr 11, 2017)

csb said:


> I'm also impressed that people were murdered inside an elementary school yesterday and we're still worried (society, not just eb.com) about a guy getting kicked off a flight.


Yeah but the Second Amendment.


----------



## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

I'm going to let the story go....

I need the spare time to camp out at my kids school and try and figure out which teachers have made poor marriage decisions which will result in them Being murdered at their place of employment...


----------



## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 11, 2017)

Just look for the ones married to the outgoing Christian zealots...


----------



## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 11, 2017)




----------



## Road Guy (Apr 11, 2017)

-Dex then steps away to the bathroom to jerk off after being able to slide in the phrase Christian zealots on the internets today....


----------



## jeb6294 (Apr 12, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> I'm against using a police force to resolve a poor business decision. If it's not a CRIME, it's not the police's job. The man bought his seat and was sitting in it. There was no crime committed by him being on the plane. He was not threatening anyone or the aircraft.


Are you truly that ignorant?  This bozo owns exactly two things on that plane...jack and $hit.  It's not "his" seat.  When he buys the airplane he can do whatever he wants with it, but until then, it's United's plane and you have to abide by their rules.  He didn't get drug off the plane because they needed to free up four seats, he got drug off because he refused to leave.  And while his criminal past certainly didn't have anything to do with what happened, kind of gives you an idea of what type of person he is.


----------



## TNSparky (Apr 12, 2017)

I just really can't wait until the lawyers get finished with this one. It's not going to go in United's favor. They will probably settle out of court and agree to admit no wrongdoing and the terms will never be discusses, but you can bet this is going to cost them and the airport police a lot of time and money. The PR damage is already done. I really hope none of you all that side with United on this one ever find yourself in the same situation the doctor was in on Sunday (regardless of whatever your background is). If you all can't see even remotely what was wrong about how the doc was treated in this particular situation, I feel sorry for you. Yeah, a lot of times engineers are supposed to removed and void of emotion and stick to fact-based thinking and analysis. And I'm not discounting that. 99 times out of 100, I usually give the offending party in question the benefit of the doubt. But in this one particular case (just this one case, not referencing any other headline-making case where justice has come into question), this was a clear and egregious violation of the doc's rights and dignity. For that reason, I think United and the responsible law enforcement party should be required to pay damages, and myself personally, I will refrain from using United Airlines for future flights.

As for the lessons learned here, there are massive procedure changes that need to be made, more than likely across all airlines. And there needs to be more laws put in place that better outline the rights of passengers and the rights of airlines....something besides a line of small print in size 3.5 font on page 238 of 1000 of the "carriage agreement." Hell, Congress didn't even read the Affordable Care Act before they even signed it. Why is it reasonable to think the average passenger has the time and resources to sit down and read 1000 pages of some crap a sleezeball corporate lawyer for the airlines came up with? The obvious procedure change that needs to be mandated across all airlines: if you're overbooked, you don't board the plane with a single passenger, period. Me personally, I'd like to go further and have overbooking banned by law. The airlines have abused that system long enough and have proven many times over that they are not competent enough to do it and regulate it on their own. All of this would have been prevented if they maintained a 1 passenger = 1 seat ratio...AND DON'T GO OVER IT.

I'm done with this one. If any of you all are flying United soon, pepper your angus. That's all I can say.


----------



## mudpuppy (Apr 12, 2017)

Dao hasn't been charged with a crime.  If what he did was so reprehensible that it justifies assaulting him, don't you think he'd be charged with a crime?  Rape, murder?  Trespass, resisting a police officer?

But he wasn't.  Because his actions were not that unreasonable.  If someone tries to take away something you paid for, do you all just give it up no questions asked?


----------



## MA_PE (Apr 12, 2017)

His actions of not complying with the directive of getting off the plane is certainly unreasonable. 

All of the proponents of Dr Dao have not addressed the question of just how do you forcibly remove someone from a "peaceful protest" without potentially causing them to have a boo-boo?


----------



## thekzieg (Apr 12, 2017)

That's the thing - you don't forcibly remove them. You incentivize them to _want_ to leave. Everyone has a price, they should have just found his.


----------



## Road Guy (Apr 12, 2017)

maybe they should have offered him a private room with a little boy?


----------



## Supe (Apr 12, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> maybe they should have offered him a private room with a little boy?


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## TNSparky (Apr 12, 2017)

MA_PE said:


> His actions of not complying with the directive of getting off the plane is certainly unreasonable.
> 
> All of the proponents of Dr Dao have not addressed the question of just how do you forcibly remove someone from a "peaceful protest" without potentially causing them to have a boo-boo?


Yes, I have. You don't create a situation for a protest to begin with. If a plane is overbooked, not one single passenger should be let on until the overbooking situation is resolve....AT THE GATE.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 12, 2017)

TNSparky said:


> Me personally, I'd like to go further and have overbooking banned by law. The airlines have abused that system long enough and have proven many times over that they are not competent enough to do it and regulate it on their own.





TNSparky said:


> If a plane is overbooked, not one single passenger should be let on until the overbooking situation is resolve....AT THE GATE.


*This didn’t happen because United sold too many tickets.*[COLOR= rgb(51, 51, 51)] [/COLOR]United Express (Republic Airlines) had to send four crew members to work a flight the next morning. The weekend was operationally challenging, this was a replacement crew, if the employees didn’t get to Louisville a whole plane load of passengers were going to be ‘bumped’ when that flight was cancelled, and likely other passengers on other flights using that aircraft would have their own important travel plans screwed up as well.


----------



## csb (Apr 12, 2017)

I was once on a flight in the very back row where the gentlemen next to me was clutching his briefcase to his chest prior to takeoff. The flight attendant told him he needed to stow it. He argued but said okay and she walked away and he put it behind his legs. She came back and told him it needed to be in the overhead or under the seat. He argued again and she got on the phone to the cockpit that she had a passenger who wasn't complying with instructions from the flight crew. He overheard her, as did most of us, and said, "FINE! FINE!" and shoved it under the seat. 

He had the right to a carryon, but not to keep it anywhere, because it's a safety issue. He would have been removed from the flight. 

I don't think this is a "protest" situation. He just didn't want to get off the flight. No one else did either, so he was forced from the flight.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 12, 2017)

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1731099693583842&amp;id=1459893920704422


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## Dleg (Apr 12, 2017)

Damn, remind me not to go to a car dealership with any of you guys to negotiate a new car.  It's their dealership, after all, so F you if you have the nerve to refuse to accept the Family Truckster when you ordered something different.  

Liberal or conservative, I think we all agree that the free market is a huge part of what has made America successful.  If a company roughs up an uncooperative customer, they are going to pay a price in the market.  Apparently there are some people (ahem) who will still patronize the business even after seeing them treat a paying customer like a criminal.  As said by many above, the man has not been charged with a crime, and the United CEO has finally woken up to the realities of capitalism this morning and is falling all over himself to apologize and insist that United will never again use the police to remove a bumped passenger.


----------



## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 12, 2017)

It's currently being meme'd so hard people are soon going to be more upset at the memes than United.  In a week no one will even remember it.


----------



## MA_PE (Apr 12, 2017)

and awaaayyy weee goo......

https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-airlines-passenger-threatened-handcuffs-073030438.html


----------



## knight1fox3 (Apr 12, 2017)




----------



## Road Guy (Apr 12, 2017)

Just remember, it can always get worse....


----------



## kevo_55 (Apr 12, 2017)

Ouch. Too soon?


----------



## csb (Apr 12, 2017)

MA_PE said:


> and awaaayyy weee goo......
> 
> https://www.yahoo.com/news/united-airlines-passenger-threatened-handcuffs-073030438.html


BUT that's first class! I heard it's filled with untouchables!


----------



## knight1fox3 (Apr 12, 2017)

csb said:


> BUT that's first class! I heard it's filled with untouchables *a-holes*!


Fixt.


----------



## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 12, 2017)

Just saw a headline that read:

"United confirms beatings will continue until volunteering improves."


----------



## kevo_55 (Apr 13, 2017)




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## engineergurl (Apr 13, 2017)

Thing is, in my head, in a situation where they were saying they were going to physically remove me from a venue of any kind, regardless of what I think my rights are, I'm not going to embarrass myself or let the situation escalate to that point.  If my rights were being violated as a human or as a customer, I think that a calmer situation would get me further in resolving it to my advantage.


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## snickerd3 (Apr 13, 2017)

social media at its finest.  10-15 yrs ago it wouldn't have blown up this big so quickly.  maybe an interview on the news with a passenger who was seated on the complete opposite end of the plane.


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## mudpuppy (Apr 13, 2017)

engineergurl said:


> Thing is, in my head, in a situation where they were saying they were going to physically remove me from a venue of any kind, regardless of what I think my rights are, I'm not going to embarrass myself or let the situation escalate to that point.  If my rights were being violated as a human or as a customer, I think that a calmer situation would get me further in resolving it to my advantage.




This isn't necessarily true when dealing with an airline.  Airlines have so much power over their customers that the instant he got off that plane he would have no recourse than to accept whatever the gate agent made up on the spot.


----------



## NJmike PE (Apr 13, 2017)




----------



## YMZ PE (Apr 13, 2017)

Vietnamese, but whatever (frickin honky).


----------



## NJmike PE (Apr 13, 2017)

At least he didn't have to babysit his kids on the plane

oking:


----------



## mudpuppy (Apr 14, 2017)

Looks like this incident is already having positive effects.

From http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/04/14/delta-denied-boarding-compensation/



> *Delta wants to make sure passengers aren’t involuntarily denied boarding from flights, so has given their frontline employees more discretion as to how much compensation they can offer for voluntary denied boardings*, based on the situation. Per an internal source, here’s what’s changing:
> 
> Previously gate agents were limited to offering $800 worth of vouchers in compensation, while supervisors were limited to offering $2,000 worth of vouchers in compensation
> 
> *Delta has now increased compensation limits for voluntary denied boardings — gate agents can now offer up to $2,000 worth of vouchers, while supervisors can offer up to $9,950 worth of vouchers*


If everyone on the plane had been offered $9950 instead of $800, I bet there would have been plenty of takers and United would have avoided all the controversy.  Most of us wouldn't have the balls to stand up to the airline the way Dr. Dao did, and I hope his actions continue to spur improvements in airline overbooking procedures and customer service.


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## Road Guy (Apr 14, 2017)

Yeah he is Hero the same way Jane Fonda was!

The Bitch wasn't trying to do anything but act like he was too good to follow someone else's rules. I hope the courts smack him around some more. I especially hope they investigate his accusation that he got a concussion and Broke nose! Freaking crook! I am sure one of his "doctor" kids made that diagnosis...


----------



## mudpuppy (Apr 14, 2017)

Protesting the military and protesting the airlines are two very different things.  Airline customer service has gotten to the point where they airlines don't even feel like they have to treat their customers as human beings, because the passengers don't have any choice in the matter.  They prefer to think of their customers as self-loading cargo.

I'm not saying what Dr. Dao did was right, but I think it was inevitable with the way airlines treat people, and I hope it does result in more positive change in the industry.


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## Road Guy (Apr 14, 2017)

I am not defending the airlines I just think in this instance they have the wrong spokesperson (the guy who should be a registered sex offender) - I think he should have to go on an episode of "oh my balls" or something...


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## MA_PE (Apr 14, 2017)

"I hope it does result in more positive change in the industry. "

the only change will be that more people will feel "entitled" and "stand up for their rights" when they're not really "entitled" anything and whether or not they have any "rights" in the situation.

Also this further propagates the American "sue 'em" mentality and the juries awarding outrageous sums to "teach the big companies a lesson" when it isn't deserved, warranted, and just doesn't make any sense.


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## Road Guy (Apr 14, 2017)

I know one change I would make if I was an airline exec. Make sure that the people randomly selected to be "debarked" are sitting in aisle seats....


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## snickerd3 (Apr 14, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> I know one change I would make if I was an airline exec. Make sure that the people randomly selected to be "debarked" are sitting in aisle seats....


or just don't board the plane until the needed seats are available.


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## MA_PE (Apr 14, 2017)

snickerd3 said:


> or just don't board the plane until the needed seats are available.


I believe that this is the intent.  this viral incident was a "perfect storm"


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## Road Guy (Apr 14, 2017)

One thing I think is fucked up is they will board you and then tell you that you are on a 2 hour delay and won't let you off the plane....


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## TNSparky (Apr 14, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> One thing I think is fucked up is they will board you and then tell you that you are on a 2 hour delay and won't let you off the plane....


They cracked down on some of that a few years ago. JetBlue was the worst about it.


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## MA_PE (Apr 14, 2017)

I believe it has to do with gate scheduling.  They can hold you on the plane but the plane can't stay at the gate.


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## goodal (Apr 18, 2017)

We flew United to Denver last week and back.  This incident happened between flights.  We all noticed how friendlier the attendants were on the ride home than the first time.  Coincidence?  We really had no issues either way other than the TSA stopping my EIGHT year old to smell his shoes for bombs.  We packed everything for 5 skiers and a week away from home in 8 carry-ons.


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## YMZ PE (Apr 18, 2017)

One time the Canadian TSA stopped and swabbed my two year old's hands. Lucky thing too as they found traces of nitroglycerin on them. Not that they did anything more about it than say "Sore-ry aboot that" and sent us on our way.


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## Supe (Apr 18, 2017)

So what you're saying is don't let your kids play with the 1970's era chemistry play set they got for X-mas before flying?


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## goodal (Apr 18, 2017)

I was preparing to go ballistic if they wanted to pat him down.  Luckily, I didn't have to do that, because i would have probably ended up in jail.


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## Road Guy (Apr 18, 2017)

was he wearing a suicide bomber vest?  I don't normally see them go for the kids?


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## csb (Apr 18, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> was he wearing a suicide bomber vest?  I don't normally see them go for the kids?


Your kids don't fly in those?


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## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

http://www.ajc.com/news/national/family-says-birthday-cake-got-them-kicked-off-jetblue-flight/Fpk1lJjHiF4GaUCGclq66N/

so what's you all's take on this story?  (Seems there have been several since this guy got rightfully dragged of the united plane  I think there was also a family of rich assholes flying back from Hawaii that wanted to use  a child seat or something fishy with the all important Delta airlines! )

Whether or not  the family was rightfully kicked off for the cake I think Jet blue learned from the other incident and made everyone get off the plane and then re-boarded everyone but then conveniently didn't allow the cake family back on.  Probably a better tactic than dragging the guy down the aisle (reminds me of my wedding)


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## Ramnares P.E. (May 15, 2017)

Rich a-hole flying back from Hawaii?  Don't talk about @Ble_PE that way!


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## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

sorry I am in need of a vacation and am having vacation envy


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## MA_PE (May 15, 2017)

the cake story is a  money-grab if you ask me.  Yeah, let's take a family trip with two small kids to Vegas? for mommy's birthday and we'll take a cake with us.  Freakin' idiots.  Mommy has to wear her b-day blinking light tiara on the plane, too.

"Family plans to sue"  Imagine that.


----------



## jeb6294 (May 15, 2017)

The problem is that now everyone is a spoiled entitled prick.  They all think they own the airplanes and can do whatever they want because if the airline doesn't give in they'll start screaming for a lawyer.

If I read it right the a-holes coming from Hawaii a few weeks ago decided to send a kid home on a different flight and then decided they were going to let a different kid use the original ticket, but they're entitled pricks, so they don't need to follow any of the security protocols.  Family shows up for flight, has someone using a ticket who's name doesn't match up with name on ticket and gets booted off.  Entitled pricks go running to the media and lawyer about how they were unjustly dragged from their flight.


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## mudpuppy (May 15, 2017)

In the Hawaii one, the flight attendants told the passengers the FAA didn't allow them to use a car seat for their baby, which is 100% opposite of what the FAA actually says.  It was yet another case of airline employees power tripping and completely making things up to fit their own whims.


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## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

they seriously need to town down their flight attendants _level of authority &lt;cartman voice&gt; _throughout all airlines.


----------



## matt267 PE (May 15, 2017)

The cake family is from NJ. Nuff said.


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## Owism (May 15, 2017)

Flying while Asian. Flying while Muslim.


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## YMZ PE (May 15, 2017)

jeb6294 said:


> The problem is that now everyone is a spoiled entitled prick.  They all think they own the airplanes and can do whatever they want because if the airline doesn't give in they'll start screaming for a lawyer.
> 
> If I read it right the a-holes coming from Hawaii a few weeks ago decided to send a kid home on a different flight and then decided they were going to let a different kid use the original ticket, but they're entitled pricks, so they don't need to follow any of the security protocols.  Family shows up for flight, has someone using a ticket who's name doesn't match up with name on ticket and gets booted off.  Entitled pricks go running to the media and lawyer about how they were unjustly dragged from their flight.


Sounds to me like they had a lap child and an empty seat next to them, but Delta wouldn't let them place the lap child in the seat because they overbooked the flight and wanted to give the seat to someone else. I think I'd feel the same way if I were the parents, but the 18 year old never checked in so Delta already allowed someone else to take his spot and it wouldn't be fair to the person who got the spot. So I'd be irked but I'd get it and let it go.



Owism said:


> Flying while Asian. Flying while Muslim.


This incident had nothing to do with the guy being Asian. Broad statements like these hurt the cause of addressing real discrimination.


----------



## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

[SIZE= 8px]Usually with the Asians you only worry if they chain themselves into the pilot seats and put on the kamikaze bandanna though and start targeting ships with near empty crews (but I guess that's been a while)[/SIZE]

[SIZE= 12px]And who would want to make an 8 hour flight with a 1 year old sitting on your lap? [/SIZE]


----------



## YMZ PE (May 15, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> [SIZE= 8px]Usually with the Asians you only worry if they chain themselves into the pilot seats and put on the kamikaze bandanna though and start targeting ships with near empty crews (but I guess that's been a while)[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE= 12px]And who would want to make an 8 hour flight with a 1 year old sitting on your lap? [/SIZE]


Exactly! Also, it's just the filthy Japanese you have to worry about. The rest of us are cool.


----------



## knight1fox3 (May 15, 2017)

^^ LOL


----------



## kevo_55 (May 15, 2017)

OK? Hey, I was the token white guy at Chinese Language School graduation over the weekend.

I had to get up in front of everyone and say "我的名字是 kevo."


----------



## Audi Driver P.E. (May 15, 2017)

Owism said:


> Flying while Asian. Flying while Muslim.


hahaha  yeah right.


----------



## Owism (May 15, 2017)

YMZ PE said:


> Sounds to me like they had a lap child and an empty seat next to them, but Delta wouldn't let them place the lap child in the seat because they overbooked the flight and wanted to give the seat to someone else. I think I'd feel the same way if I were the parents, but the 18 year old never checked in so Delta already allowed someone else to take his spot and it wouldn't be fair to the person who got the spot. So I'd be irked but I'd get it and let it go.
> 
> This incident had nothing to do with the guy being Asian. Broad statements like these hurt the cause of addressing real discrimination.


Would it have happened to a Caucasian Female Medical Doctor who also needs to see her patients?


----------



## Owism (May 15, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> hahaha  yeah right.


Whats it like to drive an Audi? I should really test drive one



Owism said:


> Whats it like to drive an Audi? I should really test drive one


Infiniti &gt; Audi

Just sayin'



knight1fox3 said:


> Infiniti &gt; Audi
> 
> Just sayin'


Thus far my corolla is better than all that in terms of $$$ and efficiency and getting the job done.... racetrack? no sorry.



Owism said:


> Thus far my corolla is better than all that in terms of $$$ and efficiency and getting the job done.... racetrack? no sorry.


Broad generalization for which you have no fuel efficiency data on to make that statement. My Infinti is a hybrid. Which blows your Corolla away in MPG. :thumbs:



knight1fox3 said:


> Broad generalization for which you have no fuel efficiency data on to make that statement. My Infinti is a hybrid. Which blows your Corolla away in MPG. :thumbs:


When do you have to replace the battery? How much more did you pay for the vehicle, premium gas and maintenance, as well as insurance?



Owism said:


> When do you have to replace the battery? How much more did you pay for the vehicle, premium gas and maintenance, as well as insurance?


Again, questions you don't have the answer to to make a generalization. Especially one with regard to efficiency.

Infiniti hybrid batteries carry a lifetime warranty. :thumbs:



knight1fox3 said:


> Again, questions you don't have the answer to to make a generalization. Especially one with regard to efficiency.
> 
> Infiniti hybrid batteries carry a lifetime warranty. :thumbs:


Thats fine but warranty only covers defects... Battery wear means becoming less efficient in MPG and eventual replacement. Just curious how long until they recommend replacement


----------



## YMZ PE (May 15, 2017)

Owism said:


> Would it have happened to a Caucasian Female Medical Doctor who also needs to see her patients?


If she was making a scene and resisting removal in a similar fashion, yeah I could see that happening. I'm not saying it was right. I just don't see how this has anything to do with his race.


----------



## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

Well I think it was proven the guy didn't really have any patients to see- he was barely even a doctor.

But in this one rare incident in America I am venturing to say I don't think that race was an issue, the airline randomly picked seat numbers and they drew his number (&amp; then he acted like a little bitch).  I don't know what the races were of the two people who did what was asked of them that deplaned without incident.

From all these incidents, including the Delta Hawaii one (rich white family)  the cake incident (middle class black family) and the United one - if there is one thing for certain, these airlines don't give a fuck about any of us / you!


----------



## YMZ PE (May 15, 2017)

Don't forget to quantify your enjoyment of the ride and other intangible benefits such as peace of mind and pride of ownership. That has value as well and shouldn't be dismissed. I'd take my minivan any day over the Honda Accord I used to drive, even though the latter had better MPG, lower insurance and less costly maintenance.

All this is really to say vehicle ownership is completely subjective and KF likes to start arguments for the sake of arguing. "Infinit &gt; Audi"? Did anyone even ask? (love you foxy)


----------



## MA_PE (May 15, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> if there is one thing for certain, these airlines don't give a fuck about any of us / you!


Now I'm not a world-class traveler with a huge frequent flyer cache/profile but I'd estimate that above 95% of my air travel has gone smoothly and I did in fact reach my destination as planned with all of my belongings.  Airline staff (including the flight attendants have been very nice.  Whenever I get on a plane I don't figure on moving in, I just want a ride from one place to another.  If that happens I'm happy and on the infrequent occasions where there was a snag, well I don't expect a free ride and a lifetime annuity.


----------



## Dleg (May 15, 2017)

I've traveled a fair amount and I would say that 95% of my international flights have been smooth with professionally-behaving flight attendants, but I'd estimate that my domestic travels are closer to 75% or less.  Then again, I was living away from the mainland US for 20 years, and in that time I feel like just about all customer service in the US has degraded. As if it is no longer expected within US society to be polite.  Or maybe it's just my impressions that have shifted, from exposure to other places where you can't get away with being a dick/bitch to your customers.


----------



## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

My positions may be skewed as my wife's cousin is a delta flight attendant and has stopped by "Denver" more than I care too the last year. Lately I just cant stand to be around her to be honest,   I had to act like I was on the Criminal Doctor's side of the united story just "for fun"...But I have to say Delta puts them waitresses of the sky up in some seriously nice hotels!

But I think its a mix of customer service degrading and the actual customer is usually just an asshole / bitch to begin with. 

We frequent very few places that we like, tip well and get great service in return.  Had the "guy" at our local Mexican place sneak us in ahead of a shit load of people on Cinco De Mayo (don't even know why we went to be honest it was like a 90 minute wait)


----------



## Dexman PE PMP (May 15, 2017)

"The customer is always right" has been slowly eroding away the patience of customer service professionals for decades now. Customers demand more because they'll just "call a manager" if they don't get what they want, even if their demands are pushing the boundary. Management then undermine their employees by not backing them up in any conflict. How do you feel going into a client meeting telling them that ____ feature they want on their roadway doesn't work, but then your design manager overrides you and promises what you can't deliver? Now do this multiple times a day, five days a week. Now you have employees who don't give a shit about the company and are sick of dealing with asshole customers. They just show up to work to collect a paycheck and will do just the bare minimum to maintain that.

I will have to admit we're spoiled down here for airlines. AirNZ, Qantas and Emirates are absolutely fantastic companies and deliver every time. Always helpful and polite, the customers appreciate it and in return treat the staff with respect.  Really dreading my connections with American and United in a couple of weeks though...


----------



## MA_PE (May 15, 2017)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> "The customer is always right" has been slowly eroding away the patience of customer service professionals for decades now. Customers demand more because they'll just "call a manager" if they don't get what they want, even if their demands are pushing the boundary. Management then undermine their employees by not backing them up in any conflict.


----------



## knight1fox3 (May 15, 2017)

MA_PE said:


> View attachment 9472


LOL, that's Judge Reinhold, but what movie was that from?


----------



## Road Guy (May 15, 2017)

Every now and then you will see a manager stand up to the "crazy's" and when it happens everyone around should applaud!


----------



## MA_PE (May 15, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> LOL, that's Judge Reinhold, but what movie was that from?


Fast Times at Ridgemont High

"I hope you had one hell of a piss, Arnold!"


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## Dexman PE PMP (May 15, 2017)

Anytime I see this haircut walk up to the ticket counter before boarding the plane, I know someone is about to have a bad time...


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## goodal (May 16, 2017)

My wife accidentally got one of those a few years ago.  She literally cried for days and blacklisted the company.  She was apparently visibly upset when she left the hair dooer.  The manager called to appologize and offered her a bunch of free stuff.  My wife turned her down and hasn't been back. For the record, it didn't look THAT bad.


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## jeb6294 (May 17, 2017)

Ah, the duck butt.  Very popular when I was overseas.


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## leggo PE (May 17, 2017)

Boyfriend and I booked our flights to Barcelona on Norwegian for September... Good deal on direct flights from California, but the catch is we have to pay an additional fee to book seats more than a day in advance. It's not a crazy fee, so I might bite.


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## P-E (May 17, 2017)

All these fees are crazy.  Airlines: please just charge what it costs and drop the fees.


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## Dexman PE PMP (May 18, 2017)

But I don't travel with a checked bag, why should my ticket subsidize your trip?


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## MA_PE (May 18, 2017)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> But I don't travel with a checked bag, why should my ticket subsidize your trip?


my checked bag doesn't affect the cabin capacity like an overhead bag does.  Why should I let you have my allocated overhead storage just because I checked my bag?


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## Dexman PE PMP (May 18, 2017)

MA_PE said:


> my checked bag doesn't affect the cabin capacity like an overhead bag does.  Why should I let you have my allocated overhead storage just because I checked my bag?


What makes you think I store it overhead? Are you now claiming my footspace?


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## Ble_PE (May 18, 2017)

Unless your carry on is a tiny backpack you're not storing it under your seat.


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## Dexman PE PMP (May 18, 2017)

It actually is. At least when I'm traveling by myself.

Only had 2 checked bags last time the whole family traveled. We travel light.


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## Ble_PE (May 18, 2017)

That wouldn't work for me. For one, I can't sit in an airplane seat and not put my legs under the seat in front of me and two, I can't fit more than a shirt and some underwear in a backpack.

We travel light as well. When the mrs. and I went to Europe for 2 weeks we had one checked bag and a small backpack carry on.


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## Road Guy (May 18, 2017)




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## Audi Driver P.E. (May 19, 2017)

MA_PE said:


> my checked bag doesn't affect the cabin capacity like an overhead bag does.  Why should I let you have my allocated overhead storage just because I checked my bag?


If you check a bag and don't have a carry on that's on you.  "Your" space is not claimed by you and is therefor up for grabs.


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## jeb6294 (May 25, 2017)

http://www.wcpo.com/news/national/united-flight-attendant-walks-in-on-mom-breast-pumping

Another self-entitled ass hat coming out of the woodwork after Dr. Douchebag opened the floodgates.  Shouldn't matter if you think it's another passenger or not.  If someone is knocking on the door you don't just sit there in silence and ignore it. I'm sure she feels so offended that she will be running to a lawyer to try for her big payday.


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## snickerd3 (May 25, 2017)

Audi driver said:


> If you check a bag and don't have a carry on that's on you.  "Your" space is not claimed by you and is therefor up for grabs.


Or why should I have to put my smaller backpack at my feet instead instead of using my space in the overhead bin, so you can put your oversized carryon in an overstuffed overhead bin.  I need the foot space, hence I checked the bigger bag.


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## Supe (May 30, 2017)

The shitter door was broken on my AA flight back from Seattle this past weekend.  Came off the hinge (I think there's a release pin there that nobody bothered to check).  Some guy was taking a dump with the door cracked open a few inches.


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## jeb6294 (May 30, 2017)

Supe said:


> The shitter door was broken on my AA flight back from Seattle this past weekend.  Came off the hinge (I think there's a release pin there that nobody bothered to check).  *Some guy was taking a dump* with the door cracked open a few inches.


Completely unacceptable.  Bathrooms on planes and Greyhounds should never be used for taking a $hit.

Since you now have to be at the airport, like what, 4 or 5 hours before your flight, you've got plenty of time to hit the bathroom before you take off.  I would even make the argument that it applies under any flying circumstance, i.e. between deploying and R&amp;R's, I had to make numerous 13 hour flights to and from Dubai and I never $hit on a plane.


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## Road Guy (May 30, 2017)

I try and follow the 8 hours of fasting before any flight more than 3 hours rule....

It always freaked me out when I sit next to some dude eating an entire pizza on a plane, which is kind of distrusting, airfare has turned into greyhound..


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## knight1fox3 (May 30, 2017)

jeb6294 said:


> Completely unacceptable.  Bathrooms on planes and Greyhounds should never be used for taking a $hit.
> 
> Since you now have to be at the airport, like what, 4 or 5 hours before your flight, you've got plenty of time to hit the bathroom before you take off.  I would even make the argument that it applies under any flying circumstance, i.e. between deploying and R&amp;R's, I had to make numerous 13 hour flights to and from Dubai and I never $hit on a plane.


4 or 5 hours?! :blink:

I show up no more than 1 hour for domestic flights. Still gives me enough time to take care of business prior to the flight.

Also, perhaps there should be some sort of fine print like "only in emergency" type situations. I'd much rather have a person sitting next to me use the plane/bus facility rather than having an "incident".


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## Road Guy (May 30, 2017)

You can't even make it from the front door to Concourse E in Atlanta in under an hour even with no security check


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## MA_PE (May 31, 2017)

I just returned to Boston from a week in San Fran.  We took United both ways and the service was quite adequate.  The trip out, the bathroom had some "spray" to neutralize the bathroom rather than leave it stinky.  Why the f&amp;@k wouldn't any normal human being use it to spare the next person?!?  Yet the person ahead of me did not.   On the way back, I feel bad for whomever went in after me because I did #2 and there was no spray.


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## Road Guy (May 31, 2017)

Remind me to tell you guys my fudgey story from "that one time, on the dive boat" in Vegas...


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