# Passing rate repeat civil PE



## ipswitch (Jul 3, 2010)

Anybody with some insight as to why the passing rate for repeat takers is so low?


----------



## bbrams (Jul 6, 2010)

ipswitch said:


> Anybody with some insight as to why the passing rate for repeat takers is so low?


My guess is that part of the reason is that there is a smaller sample size. Also people are probably less likely to study when taking it again. There probably is a certain percentage that will never pass as well.


----------



## ALBin517 (Jul 6, 2010)

bbrams said:


> ipswitch said:
> 
> 
> > Anybody with some insight as to why the passing rate for repeat takers is so low?
> ...


I had a couple coworkers who studied together. One pass on that first attempt. The other failed and quit studying. But he kept taking the test every six months, with no studying. After the first time, he said it was "just luck" to get the test questions that reflected his strengths. He ended up passing on his 4th or 5th attempt.

But I think most retakers fail because they aren't serious / prepared the first time or any time thereafter. One of my good friends took it the first time with just the CERM. The second time, he had three books. By the third attempt, he had all the recommended references and was familiar with them. I think he passed that time or the next.


----------



## sac_engineer (Jul 6, 2010)

I believe the low passing rate by repeat takers is not reflective of the person's understanding of engineering, but more about how he/she prepares for the exam. The majority of engineers are analytical and like to solve things without time constraints; however, when you're only given 6 minutes per question, no one has the luxury of time to complete the exam at their leisure. I do agree that failing the exam is discouraging and some ambition or desire has diminished among repeat takers, but I have seen people spend too much time on a few topics and dismiss a large part of the study plan. They just want to "plug and chug" numbers in an equation without understanding the material.

Failing the exam on the first try should be a wake-up call. After 3 or 4 attempts, there has to be some self-evaluation as to the methods used to study (if any).


----------



## Road Guy (Jul 6, 2010)

all i know is that is scared the living sh[t out of me after I flunked the 1st time, so I trippled my study time and didnt get on the failed 2nd time list...


----------



## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 6, 2010)

Here's a link to a thread from a few years ago with several theories:

Pass Rates Discussion


----------



## MWC PE (Jul 8, 2010)

Because the people that passed the first time don't take it the second time.


----------



## hp32si (Jul 9, 2010)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Here's a link to a thread from a few years ago with several theories:
> Pass Rates Discussion


I read that last thread a while back----I thought it was a load of $hit then as I do now-- The PE is a young man's game---To pass it helps to have the time to devote to studying----It helps to have little or no responsibilities at work other than sitting in a cube and doing what you are told, (basically that describes a lot of the 5 to 7 year engineers) , single is best but married no children! Renting an apartment is better than owning a house because when you own the home, you have to fix it when things break--- All these items take away from your study time---At that is what is required to pass—STUDY TIME period---I believe that almost any engineer can pass the PE with enough study time---I think the comment by “Mike in Gastonia” in Dec 2007(see his comment below) is a bunch of self serving baloney to pump up his ego and but other people down who didn’t pass the first time. Also the times I took the test I always marked first time taker---because this was the first time I took THAT test. After you read it you will note that he is telling you that he is a high-performer---I call it BS!

_“Based on the explanations I've seen here's my shot at explaining it......._

The group of "first-time" examinees is significantly different from the group of "repeat-taker" examinees.

The "first-time" group includes a more or less even mixture of high-performing, medium-performing, and low-performing candidates.

They all take the exam. Most of the high performers pass, some of the medium performers pass, and only a few of the low performers pass. Those who pass leave the exam group.

Those who do not pass become repeat takers. So what does the repeat taker group look like? It has only a few high performers (because most of them already passed), plus some medium performers, and most of the low performers.

So the repeat taker group -- unlike the first-timer group -- consists mostly of low performers. Assuming that the exams are of similar difficulty, there needs to be something different about the repeat taker to pass the second time because otherwise they will fail again. The repeat takers who had a bad day the first time or changed their approach will pass and be removed from the repeater group.”


----------



## mark.herrmann (Jul 9, 2010)

I actually think Mike's original comment is anything but self-serving. I don't think his performance level rankings necessarily relate to engineering. Some people are just really good test takers, as opposed to some who may be knowledgeable in their field but are no good under the gun.

Not everyone is meant to get a license. If study time is what is required to pass, then, if you really want a license, you have to make sure you can devote the time. I have a wife and 2 kids. We had a discussion, and came up with a schedule that worked for both of us, and it paid off for me in the end. To say the PE is a young man's game is pretty baseless. If you want the PE, go out and get it. No one is going to just hand it to you for showing up every day at work, or showing up to the test site.


----------



## ELEPE (Jul 10, 2010)

mark.herrmann said:


> I actually think Mike's original comment is anything but self-serving. I don't think his performance level rankings necessarily relate to engineering. Some people are just really good test takers, as opposed to some who may be knowledgeable in their field but are no good under the gun.
> Not everyone is meant to get a license. If study time is what is required to pass, then, if you really want a license, you have to make sure you can devote the time. I have a wife and 2 kids. We had a discussion, and came up with a schedule that worked for both of us, and it paid off for me in the end. To say the PE is a young man's game is pretty baseless. If you want the PE, go out and get it. No one is going to just hand it to you for showing up every day at work, or showing up to the test site.


I completely agree. I would say a large number of PE exam takers (yours truly here included) are married with wife and young children. Whether or not we are "young" is a matter of opinion but I CAN say I put in at least 300 hours studying for the exam. And I don't sit around at the office with zero responsibility like the previous poster says.

Mike's post makes a lot of sense. He is just dealing with statistics.


----------



## benbo (Jul 10, 2010)

ELEPE said:


> Mike's post makes a lot of sense. He is just dealing with statistics.


^^Ditto.

After working for 20 years in positions where they didn't require licensure (heck, where a lot of people thin PE stands for Physical Education), I got a job which required a PE for advancement. I was near 50. Not only did I have a wife and kid, I had a gravely ill mother living with us. The one thing I knew was that I sure as he!! didn't want to take the damn thing twice. So I took a class and studied my a$$ off. I passed, while several officemates under 30, many of them single, have been unsuccessful through various attempts. I'm not sure why they didn't pass, and knowing them I am sure they all will at some point. But they apparently don't have an advantage being younger.


----------



## hp32si (Jul 11, 2010)

benbo said:


> ELEPE said:
> 
> 
> > Mike's post makes a lot of sense. He is just dealing with statistics.
> ...


Sounds like you and I were doing the same thing-I have been designing industrial structures for 18 years -PE not required most of the time-One project I did had 821 structural drawings-greenfield corn syrup plant for Cargill in North Dakota---I was 48 when I passed--Took it 4 times---Married 3 kids-10 to 4 -First wife terminal ill one year after I started to try to pass the exam-Passed away three years later--Single dad 3 kids for the second time----Just married new wife, with baby on the way for the third---The fourth and last time I was able to take time to study properly--- Remember statistics don't lie just the people who use them. The main point I was trying to get across is the test is not about statistics--It is about just what I said and you stated------I studied my a$$ off---Yes you where able to take the TIME to study and pass. Younger people have less things in the way so they should be able to study more---I know when I was 29 or 30 I was thinking about where my wife and I were going out on the weekend (no kids until I was 32). To use statistics to explain a test that people can't even tell you how they grade it is self serving PERIOD!

Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have *choose* to make the time to study for the exam----I was pointing out that at a younger age---you have more free time and less responsibilities at work hence more time to study---You will notice as you get older your time is spent on other people instead of your self---Your children get older--play sports or the band-somebody has to drive them--your parents get older and need your help, Your church or other groups you spend time with want you to help them---Look at what you spent or spend you time on in your 20s and 30s---If you are honest, a large portion of it is on what you want to do---football/basketball games, hunting fishing, trip to ski or the beach-etc--It is that freedom to be able to choose is the point---


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

hp32si said:


> I studied my a$$ off---Yes you where able to take the TIME to study and pass. To use statistics to explain a test that people can't even tell you how they grade it is self serving PERIOD!


^^^

I honestly don't know what your problem is with what Mike wrote. You're reading something insulting into it that isn't there. The term "high performer" or "low performer" is neither some comment about a person's innate intelligence, nor their ability to do their job, simply a statement about their ability to pass that test * that particular time *. A "low performer" can become a "high performer" by changing their study strategy - as you did. And as Mike clearly states -



> Assuming that the exams are of similar difficulty, there needs to be something different about the repeat taker to pass the second time because otherwise they will fail again. The repeat takers who had a bad day the first time or changed their approach will pass and be removed from the repeater group.”


In my case, I was able to find the time to study the first time. You eventually did. And I guarantee you if I wasn't able to find sufficient time to study the first time, I would have been in the "low performer" group, because no way I could have passed without having the time to study.



> Younger people have less things in the way so they should be able to study more---I know when I was 29 or 30 I was thinking about where my wife and I were going out on the weekend (no kids until I was 32).


Speaking of statistics, you base this on a sample size of one. People face different challenges at different ages. This is a gross overgeneralization.


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

> a test that people can't even tell you how they grade


They don't tell you the actual cut score. But they give about as much information on how they score as any other exam-. And remember that the questions and cut scores are determined by input from volunteer PEs.

http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Pages/Scoring.php

http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Pages/Scoring/Scoring_process.php


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

> Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----


I'm not missing the point. You seem to feel personally insulted by what Mike wrote when it is merely a statement of fact. It makes no statrement about _why_ anyone was or was not able to study. It merely states that for whatever reason, if you do not _perform_ well the first time (ie pass the test); if you do not change anything you are less likely to perform well the second time. It may not be possible for you to change anything. But that doesn't change the fact that you must change something, or have significant luck the second time in order to pass.

The truth is that a lot of people who don't study the first time don't change anything the second time, third time, or tenth time. In EE, a lot of people think they can get my without working problems - just reading the text. A big mistake in my opinion.

And to me your notion that young people all have the time to study and simply don't beause they prefer to recreate *is* pretty insulting to young people who may have severe challenges, including young kids, illness, etc.


----------



## hp32si (Jul 11, 2010)

[No message]


----------



## hp32si (Jul 11, 2010)

benbo said:


> > Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----
> 
> 
> I'm not missing the point. You seem to feel personally insulted by what Mike wrote when it is merely a statement of fact. It makes no statrement about _why_ anyone was or was not able to study. It merely states that for whatever reason, if you do not _perform_ well the first time (ie pass the test); if you do not change anything you are less likely to perform well the second time. It may not be possible for you to change anything. But that doesn't change the fact that you must change something, or have significant luck the second time in order to pass.
> ...



READ MY POSTs--I never said they do not study---I said they have the choice to study --simple fact ----


----------



## hp32si (Jul 11, 2010)

benbo said:


> > Everyone is missing the point----It is about being able to have choose to make the time to study for the exam----
> 
> 
> I'm not missing the point. You seem to feel personally insulted by what Mike wrote when it is merely a statement of fact. It makes no statrement about _why_ anyone was or was not able to study. It merely states that for whatever reason, if you do not _perform_ well the first time (ie pass the test); if you do not change anything you are less likely to perform well the second time. It may not be possible for you to change anything. But that doesn't change the fact that you must change something, or have significant luck the second time in order to pass.
> ...


It is not a fact---he is extrapolating a hypothesis on why he thinks people don't pass---


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

> READ MY POSTs--I never said they do not study---I said they have the choice to study --simple fact ----


Yeah, I know because of your leadership in your "2nd largest privately held" company, you know everything and it makes it fact. The only fact is that this is your anecdotal opinion. This is not a fact. This is your opinion, based on anecdotal evidence.



hp32si said:


> It is not a fact---he is extrapolating a hypothesis on why he thinks people don't pass---


I have read your posts. You are not reading mine.

What would you call a person who doesn't pass the first time? A "high performer?". *It is not a personal judgement on anything. A person who did not pass the first time did not perform well on the test, therefore they are not a high performer.* If they do not change something, they will not pass again. *MAYBE THEY CAN"T CHOOSE TO CHANGE BECAUSE OF CIRCUMSTANCE* DO you like that? Does that satisfy you? But it remains, if they don't change something they are more likely to continue to fail, unless they are extremely lucky. If you cannot see that is a fact it isn't worth the electrons to discuss this with you.


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

> 2nd largest privately held"


I fixed this typo.


----------



## hp32si (Jul 11, 2010)

benbo said:


> > 2nd largest privately held"
> 
> 
> I fixed this typo.


Thanks---I am using my wife's MAC---Don't know how to spell check with a one button mouse???? Spelling errors are very important to point out


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

hp32si said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> > > 2nd largest privately held"
> ...


That was my typo, not yours. I originally wrote "publicy traded company" for some reason, then I caught it. I didn't want you to think I wasn't reading your posts, because I was. And believe me, I understand your point. It is tough making time for this test when you have a lot of other responsibiliites, and you are more likely to have those responsibilities when you are older. I don't disagree that in general that is probably true.

I just don't think Mike would deny that. I don't think his post really addresses that.


----------



## hp32si (Jul 11, 2010)

benbo said:


> > READ MY POSTs--I never said they do not study---I said they have the choice to study --simple fact ----
> 
> 
> Yeah, I know because of your leadership in your "2nd largest privately held" company, you know everything and it makes it fact. The only fact is that this is your anecdotal opinion. This is not a fact. This is your opinion, based on anecdotal evidence.
> ...


SO from your statement when a person passes the 3rd or 4th time now they become a HIGH PERFORMER? See how it is a judgement call about when a person passes the test--- I understand the idea that you are trying to get across but Mike still implies that the order a person passes a test dictates the level of his performance--Wouldn't you say that to label a person purely on this is overly simplistic?

PS. these are no anecdotal but observations--To be anecdotal I would have to be stating something I heard from another source. If it is observed, in could be wrong if proven other wise. I based my observation on 14 yrs X 12 engineers a year = 168 observations more than just hearsay---I will grant you the fact it is not a large sample group but it is larger than your implied group of one.


----------



## benbo (Jul 11, 2010)

Okay, my last post because I sense it is pointless. You seem to have taken Mike's post extremely personally, like he is insulting you by calling you a name or something.



> SO from your statement when a person passes the 3rd or 4th time now they become a HIGH PERFORMER? See how it is a judgement call about when a person passes the test--- I understand the idea that you are trying to get across but Mike still implies that the order a person passes a test dictates the level of his performance


Yes. By definition. Someone who performs well on the test is a "high performer". Someone who doesn't is a "low performer". And "low performers" can become "high performers" by changing their study process (again, assuming nothing gets in the way). So you became a "high performer" by definition. "Low performers" who don't change anything generally stay that way. That's how I read his post. If you don't pass the first time (low performer by definition) you are less likely to pass the second time. That is just what the numbers say.



> PS. these are no anecdotal but observations--


 That's not the only defnition of anecdotal. It can also be defined as -2. Based on casual observations or indications rather than rigorous or scientific analysis

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/anecdotal

Even using your definition your story about your observations wold be anecdotal to everyone but you.

One other thing. I personally think it is ridiculous to assign any significance to how many times it takes a person to pass. Everyone gets the same letters after their name. Assume a cut score of 56. You and I could take the test, I could get a 57 and you could get a 55. I pass, you don't. You aren't able to study, or you are sick, or whatever, and then you take it two more times and each time barely miss. Then things free up for you, you bust your butt and get 80/80. Does that mean I know the material better than you? No.

But, like I said, I give up.


----------



## ipswitch (Jul 11, 2010)

Ok, this is MY thread. I like what benbo says, now end of discussion. I will pass this thing, don't really care what the repeat pass rates are. I will radically change the paradigm of my self-pedagogy. And that's that, now it's time to grind it out for real till Oct. 29.


----------



## picusld (Jul 14, 2010)

I wonder how many problems could have been worked in the time that it took for me to read and write a post to this thread...


----------



## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 16, 2010)

Wow! Thanks to benbo and others who had my back. I certainly wasn't implying anything about anyone's level of intelligence, just summarizing what others have said on here over the years. Made sense to me and wanted to pass it along.


----------



## MapuaTech (Jun 6, 2012)

why there are people who always have excuses whenever they fail or think they will fail? If you are really determined to succeed on your endeavor, not even GOLIATH can stop you. No need to further explain that. I took a 3 day licensure exam (EIT equal) from my native country without attending any review centers and only studying my old college text books. I had a trouble with my big brother the night before the first day of exam. I travelled more than 4 hours going to the exam center, not yet included the travel going home and doing it again for the 2nd and 3rd day. Since I don't have enough rest a day before the exam, I felt I was going to crash in my seat. Yet I still managed to concentrate and think on how to solve the problem as accurate and as fast as I can. After few weeks, I received my results and passed the exam. I made it to the top 14th place out of the 1370+ who passed the registered mech exam and out of 2740+ examinees.

After 11 years, I migrated here in US to work for a design/consulting firm. I noticed from my bosses and managers that they have wall certificates called "Professional Engineer". All of my colleagues (90+) not including our 4 PE Managers and 1 PE owner were very familiar with the type and processes on how to get the PE license.

I told myself, I did a "self study" before and I can do it again and again. I started to read all the requirements from credential evaluation, what's the best book to study, how fast I need to solve each problem, almost every detail of the registration and exam itself. My wife has no work and we have 2 kids. I was very lucky because 3 months before the exam (PE and EIT on same weekend) me and 14 of my colleagues got laid-off due to closure of the boiler rehab group. It was during that time when I need to decide which should comes first to me. Pass the two exams by one attempt only, look for a new job, or go out and have fun with my family. For me, I don't have any options but to do it all together. 7-10 AM look for jobs on the internet, 1030 AM to 4 PM review for EIT, 430- 730 PM cook dinner and spend time with family, 8 PM to 2 AM study for PE. I did this for 7 days a week for three months. All I just think is that, this sacrifices has its end and I should take the exams only ones and passed it.

Now here I am. I passed the EIT and PE by one weekend and one attempt, I've already been working for my new job as a "Lead Mechanical Engineer" for three weeks now, and spending time with my family after the day and weekends.

I you really want to pass the exam, don't think as there will still be a 2nd chance, 3rd, etc. Just imagine that you have only one bullet left to do all this and it all depends on your focus, determination, approach, and prayers. "NEVER EVER BE CONFIDENT, ALWAYS THINK OF THE WORST". Never ever conclude on what you see and what you hear (STATISTICS).

WE ARE HERE TO CALCULATE PROBLEMS ACCURATELY AT SHORTEST TIME AND NOT TO ANALYZE HOW MANY FAILED, HOW MANY REPEATED, AND HOW MANY QUITTED BECAUSE THAT SPELLS ON HOW IT CAN TEAR APART YOUR FOCUS.


----------



## ptatohed (Jun 7, 2012)

MapuaTech said:


> why there are people who always have excuses whenever they fail or think they will fail? If you are really determined to succeed on your endeavor, not even GOLIATH can stop you. No need to further explain that. I took a 3 day licensure exam (EIT equal) from my native country without attending any review centers and only studying my old college text books. I had a trouble with my big brother the night before the first day of exam. I travelled more than 4 hours going to the exam center, not yet included the travel going home and doing it again for the 2nd and 3rd day. Since I don't have enough rest a day before the exam, I felt I was going to crash in my seat. Yet I still managed to concentrate and think on how to solve the problem as accurate and as fast as I can. After few weeks, I received my results and passed the exam. I made it to the top 14th place out of the 1370+ who passed the registered mech exam and out of 2740+ examinees.
> 
> After 11 years, I migrated here in US to work for a design/consulting firm. I noticed from my bosses and managers that they have wall certificates called "Professional Engineer". All of my colleagues (90+) not including our 4 PE Managers and 1 PE owner were very familiar with the type and processes on how to get the PE license.
> 
> ...


Wow, great story. Not sure why you bumped a 2 year old post to tell this story here - but, again, great story.


----------

