# Cut Score...



## JoeysVee (Oct 26, 2009)

Warning...if you don't like cut score threads you may want to skip this one... :beerchug:

Do you think it's ever gone from a 56 to a 52? In other words if my score is indeed a 52, do I have any shot that the cut score is also a 52 or is that too low? I know nobody knows but do you thionk it has ever been down around a 52?

Thanks!


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## maryannette (Oct 26, 2009)

I think it is unlikely. but not impossible. 52 would be 65%. You know, I passed PE on 4th attempt. The first 3 tries, I wanted to convince myself I could have passed. The 4th time, I knew I could have passed.


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## benbo (Oct 26, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> Warning...if you don't like cut score threads you may want to skip this one... :beerchug:
> Do you think it's ever gone from a 56 to a 52? In other words if my score is indeed a 52, do I have any shot that the cut score is also a 52 or is that too low? I know nobody knows but do you thionk it has ever been down around a 52?
> 
> Thanks!


I think it might have gotten that low - for a hard test. Also, you may have done better than you think.


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## z06dustin (Oct 26, 2009)

i wish us EE guys had scores/cut scores.


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## kewlman (Oct 26, 2009)

I took SE1 in April and didn't pass. (pass rate: 48%)

Based on the report, I got around 45~46 and my score was 65.

My guess for the cut score at that time would be 50.


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## Yingli (Oct 26, 2009)

Just guess and wishes the cut score may around 44-48 (55% to 60%)


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## Yingli (Oct 26, 2009)

I heard that it is 50% correct to pass FE, if so it may be close 50% correct to pass for PE


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## JoeysVee (Oct 26, 2009)

Yingli said:


> I heard that it is 50% correct to pass FE, if so it may be close 50% correct to pass for PE


The cut score will not be 50% which is 40 out of 80.


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## JoeysVee (Oct 26, 2009)

I think the cut score is a 56 but is often lowered due to several things like...

- If large groups of people miss a problem they will throw it out and lower the cut score by 1

- If they have an error they will lower the cut score by 1 per flawed question. Every sample exam I have that the board has published has at least 2 or 3 errors so this happens quite often...at least this is my guess.

- If the committees determine a problem was too difficult they will throw it out. My guess is this is typically only on the new exam questions they throw in just to see how people do on them.

So they start at 56 and come down from there….my guess is the chances of the cut score being a 56 is higher than a 55 and the chance the cut score is a 55 is higher than a 54 and so on.

These are just my :2cents:


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## chaocl (Oct 26, 2009)

good analysis!


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## pelaw (Oct 26, 2009)

It's a breadth and depth exam. This means it is probably an xy graph. Breadth section is horizontal and depth section is vertical.

If you get 100% correct on both you fill the xy universe. If you get 70% correct on morning and 70 correct on afternoon, you are at 0.7 x 0.7 = 0.49 = 49 percent of the full area. Which is about 50% of the full area and passing.

Now, they may allow you to be a bit below on the morning if you are bit higher on the afternoon test, but generally all passers must fit the general mold of 0.7X0.7 to 1x1 area.


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## benbo (Oct 26, 2009)

I know everybody has theories, but NCEES tells you how they score the exam. I assume nobody has any inside information.

http://www.ncees.org/exams/scoring/scoring_method.php#curve

You can read up on equating on google but from what I understand it means using a group of questions that they have a fairly good idea are representative. Over repeat exam administrations they get a baseline on how well a group of examinees answer this subset of questions. From this they have a method to tell whether any particular exam is harder or easier than any other particular exam. I don't know all the details, and don't know exactly how any of these other theories fit into this.

They may very well start with the 56 correct questions, but nobody really knows.

By the way - not every exam is breadth and depth. The electrical exam isn't.


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## benbo (Oct 26, 2009)

Just to add, from all the people who have posted diagnostics on here over the years my GUESS is that the cutscore is generally somewhere between 54 and 56 points. I assume in rare instances it might go down to 52 or 53, and in even rarer instances (I think I saw one such posting) I saw a person fail with an esitmated 56 correct.

Once again this is guesswork based on anecdotal evidence. I have no voodoo or ouija board to figure this out.


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## IlPadrino (Oct 27, 2009)

pelaw said:


> It's a breadth and depth exam. This means it is probably an xy graph. Breadth section is horizontal and depth section is vertical.
> If you get 100% correct on both you fill the xy universe. If you get 70% correct on morning and 70 correct on afternoon, you are at 0.7 x 0.7 = 0.49 = 49 percent of the full area. Which is about 50% of the full area and passing.
> 
> Now, they may allow you to be a bit below on the morning if you are bit higher on the afternoon test, but generally all passers must fit the general mold of 0.7X0.7 to 1x1 area.


Not sure what you are talking about... there has never been any indication the passing process cares how you do in the depth vs. the breadth. If 56 is the magic number (and who the hell knows if it is?), you can get 40/40 in the morning and 16/40 in the afternoon, 16/40 in the morning and 40/40 in the afternoon, or 28/40 in the morning and 28/40 in the afternoon... it doesn't matter.


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## wilheldp_PE (Oct 27, 2009)

What I don't understand about the NCEES process is that they claim to have a huge bank of exam questions that the guard like the gold vault at Ft. Knox. They guard these questions so that they can still be used on future exams without everybody having seen them in a practice exam. Yet they still have to evaluate every question for fairness every year? It seems like they have been doing this long enough to be able to select from their bank of questions in such a way that the exam has a consistent level of difficulty every time, and no "curving" is necessary. If they did that, then they could give the exam on computers and give you the results instantly...or at least just run the scantron sheets through a machine and mail out the results in a week.


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## benbo (Oct 27, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> What I don't understand about the NCEES process is that they claim to have a huge bank of exam questions that the guard like the gold vault at Ft. Knox. They guard these questions so that they can still be used on future exams without everybody having seen them in a practice exam. Yet they still have to evaluate every question for fairness every year? It seems like they have been doing this long enough to be able to select from their bank of questions in such a way that the exam has a consistent level of difficulty every time, and no "curving" is necessary. If they did that, then they could give the exam on computers and give you the results instantly...or at least just run the scantron sheets through a machine and mail out the results in a week.


I think the theory (or at least the general theory of equating) is that every exam has a combination of old and new questions. For the old questions they have statistics on how well people in the past have answered those questions. That way if they get a particularly low score on the exam's new questions they can look at how the group did on the known question pool and tell if the problem is the exam or a particularly poor pool of examinees. Plus I'm sure they look at people's complaints about questions.

Also, they want to release all the exams at the same time, so if they finish the electricals first I don't think they want to release those until the civils are done. So they give themselves a long time.

But I agree all that is probably just an excuse and they could get the answers somewhat more quickly.


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## JoeysVee (Oct 27, 2009)

This is a good description of Equating! It's worth the read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equating

ld-025:

In classical test theory, mean equating simply adjusts the distribution of scores so that the mean of one form is comparable to the mean of the other form. While mean equating is attractive because of its simplicity, it lacks flexibility, namely accounting for the possibility that the standard deviations of the forms differ. [1]

Linear equating adjusts so that the two forms have a comparable mean and standard deviation. There are several types of linear equating that differ in the assumptions and mathematics used to estimate parameters. The Tucker and Levine Observed Score methods estimate the relationship between observed scores on the two forms, while the Levine True Score method estimates the relationship between true scores on the two forms.[1]

Equipercentile equating determines the equating relationship as one where a score could have an equivalent percentile on either form. This relationship can be nonlinear.

Unlike with item response theory, equating based on classical test theory is somewhat distinct from scaling. Equating is a raw-to-raw transformation in that it estimates a raw score on Form B that is equivalent to each raw score on the base Form A. Any scaling transformation used is then applied on top of, or with, the equating.


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## hp32si (Oct 29, 2009)

What about the if the test is to easy ---is the score higher than 56? I would seem logical that if they can lower it by a point or two could they not also raise it by a point or two??


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## chaocl (Nov 12, 2009)

benbo said:


> Just to add, from all the people who have posted diagnostics on here over the years my GUESS is that the cutscore is generally somewhere between 54 and 56 points. I assume in rare instances it might go down to 52 or 53, and in even rarer instances (I think I saw one such posting) I saw a person fail with an esitmated 56 correct.
> Once again this is guesswork based on anecdotal evidence. I have no voodoo or ouija board to figure this out.



54-56 cut score is for Civil. I don't think that Electical or Mechanical share the same cut score.


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## benbo (Nov 12, 2009)

chaocl said:


> 54-56 cut score is for Civil. I don't think that Electical or Mechanical share the same cut score.


Nobody except NCEES knows the cut score for any of the tests.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Nov 12, 2009)

benbo said:


> chaocl said:
> 
> 
> > 54-56 cut score is for Civil. I don't think that Electical or Mechanical share the same cut score.
> ...


Exactly right. And when people say these as statements, others take them as fact and the myths are perpetuated......


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## hansel (Nov 12, 2009)

chaocl said:


> 54-56 cut score is for Civil. I don't think that Electical or Mechanical share the same cut score.


I agree. 56 is a good guess. Nobody has ever reported here that they got more than 70% correct and failed the exam. So it is safe to say that 56 correct (or 70%) is the threshold.

What I don't understand about the NCEES, however, is the whole secrecy around the cut score. If the scoring process is so solid and fair as they claim why not publish at least the cut score?


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## benbo (Nov 12, 2009)

hansel said:


> I agree. 56 is a good guess. Nobody has ever reported here that they got more than 70% correct and failed the exam. So it is safe to say that 56 correct (or 70%) is the threshold. What I don't understand about the NCEES, however, is the whole secrecy around the cut score. If the scoring process is so solid and fair as they claim why not publish at least the cut score?


Somebody on this website used the diagnostic to calculate their score and reported failing with a 56.


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## JoeysVee (Nov 12, 2009)

benbo said:


> Somebody on this website used the diagnostic to calculate their score and reported failing with a 56.


Do you have a link to this thread? If not, what could we search for to find it? I'm not sure I would believe the guy if he said he got a 56 and failed..


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## humner (Nov 12, 2009)

With todays computers and programs in them, our test results could be sent out in a week after they enter all the exam answers into the scantron. It comes down to money, if they demonstrate that it could be done in less then two months, they would not be able to charge as much. But seeing as how there is only one sherriff in town, there is no competition to get it done sooner. We pay with our cash, and we pay with our time. These tests could easily be offered 4 times a year.


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## Vishal (Nov 12, 2009)

This whole % discussion does not tell the whole story. In "estimating" the # of correct answers the candidate is going by the %'s published in the diagnostic report and NCEES guidelines for the # of questions in each subject. According to me, this is flawed since in doing so you are assuming that all the questions from all the sections have been counted towards the final score and this may not be the case.

Not only do we not know how many questions have been tossed out of final score but we also don't know from which section. For example, you get a 100% score in an area where there were 4 questions on the test but 2 of these questions were tossed out so your # of correct answers is 2 and not 4. What will give the corect picture is if the test scorers will publish the # of questions accounted in each section and # of correct responses. PTOE test result did this for me. I had a break down for each section and also the average score (I passed the test and still got this breakdown). I think CA specific exams also give out the cut score.

Add to all this the fact that if a test is easier or if the pool of test takers is "above average" then it is completely possible for a candidate to get 56/80 (if all the questions were accounted for in the final score) and still fail since the average test taker for that test was able to score higher than 56. The whole myth of the number 56 is related to 70% which is related to the passing score of 70. But passing score is NOT equal to % of correct responses. So 56 is not even the starting point to calculate the cut score it is just that, a myth. I say that from the explanation given about the test scoring it is also possible for a candidate to score 60/80 and still fail since the average candidate was found to be able to answer more # of questions correct.


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## benbo (Nov 12, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> Do you have a link to this thread? If not, what could we search for to find it? I'm not sure I would believe the guy if he said he got a 56 and failed..


Believe me, it's on here. I have no idea where, or if he was lying (obviously).


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## Mutha PE PS (Nov 12, 2009)

benbo said:


> Nobody except NCEES knows the cut score for any of the tests.


Here is some information from the GA board FAQ's:

Q. Does a passing score of 70 mean that 70% of the questions were answered correctly?

A. No. The required number of points (questions answered correctly) needed to pass the exam is determined in terms of the total points available on the exam. The required number of points needed to pass the exam is referred to as the “raw passing score.” This raw passing score is always reported as the converted or scaled score of 70.

Q. Making this score conversion is confusing. Is it necessary?

A. Score conversion to a uniform scale is a common practice. The practice is used so that the passing score on every administration of the exam is always the same. Furthermore, some licensing boards are required by law to use 70 as the passing score. The NCEES has used this practice for many years.

Q. From the questions and answers above, I gather that the raw passing score can vary. Why is this?

A. The raw passing score can vary on exams that are no-choice. The no-choice format has been used for many years by the NCEES on the Fundamentals of Engineering exam and the two Land Surveying exams. At the present time (2001) the PE exams are in the process of converting to this format. The no-choice format permits the NCEES to perform a statistical analysis and use it to adjust the raw passing score to account for variations in the level of difficulty of the exams. So, if an exam is more difficult than usual the raw passing score is lowered accordingly. This means that the standard required for passing remains the same.

Q. Traditionally, for the PE exam in civil engineering you had to get 48 points out of 80 possible points to pass. This was 60% of the points available. Now that the passing score is 70 does this mean you have "raised the bar"?

A. Not at all. Under the old format prior to October 2000, the raw passing score for the civil engineering exam was always 48 raw points, and this passing score was always reported as a converted score of 70. In the old format candidates could pick and choose the questions they worked. Many candidates worked a unique set of questions. Under this system there was no way to adjust the passing score from 48 to account for variations in the difficulty of the exam. In October 2000, the civil engineering exam changed to a no-choice format. With this format all candidates work exactly the same exam and it will now be possible to use a statistical analysis to determine if any given exam is more difficult or less difficult than previous exams. The information is used to adjust the raw passing score. This means that an examinee's chances of passing the exam remain constant over time and do not depend on the difficulty of the specific exam that was taken. Therefore the new system is fairer to examinees.


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## JoeysVee (Nov 12, 2009)

benbo said:


> Believe me, it's on here. I have no idea where, or if he was lying (obviously).


I believe you...I'm sure it's here.

I would like to read what the guy said so I'd love to see that thread. If he did say that, I personally would not believe him.


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## JoeysVee (Nov 12, 2009)

Hart4515 said:


> Here is some information from the GA board FAQ's:
> Q. Does a passing score of 70 mean that 70% of the questions were answered correctly?
> 
> A. No. The required number of points (questions answered correctly) needed to pass the exam is determined in terms of the total points available on the exam. The required number of points needed to pass the exam is referred to as the “raw passing score.” This raw passing score is always reported as the converted or scaled score of 70.
> ...



This is exactly how I thought it worked. I've never seen a thread were someone had a 56 and failed so my guess is they start at 56 and work down from there depending on how many problems they throw out and the level of difficulty. That's just my opinion.


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## SteveV (Nov 12, 2009)

I failed in April 08 on the Civil exam and based on my diagnostic I figured I got 52/80.


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## benbo (Nov 12, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> I believe you...I'm sure it's here.
> I would like to read what the guy said so I'd love to see that thread. If he did say that, I personally would not believe him.


I have no idea how to find it - especially since the topic of the cut score is not exactly unpopular on here. If I recall correctly he just posted his diagnostic results like everyone else. Of course he could have made that up too. I think IlPadrino may have responded to him, although I'm not sure.

I know a poster on here named LakersFreak posted a failing 55/80 diagnostic. But I can't remember the name of this other member with the 56.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Nov 12, 2009)

humner said:


> With todays computers and programs in them, our test results could be sent out in a week after they enter all the exam answers into the scantron. It comes down to money, if they demonstrate that it could be done in less then two months, they would not be able to charge as much. But seeing as how there is only one sherriff in town, there is no competition to get it done sooner. We pay with our cash, and we pay with our time. These tests could easily be offered 4 times a year.


Wow......

Nothing like making broad, brash statements based on absolutely no facts and no knowledge of how the system works!


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## EM_PS (Nov 13, 2009)

humner said:


> With todays computers and programs in them, our test results could be sent out in a week after they enter all the exam answers into the scantron. It comes down to money, if they demonstrate that it could be done in less then two months, they would not be able to charge as much. But seeing as how there is only one sherriff in town, there is no competition to get it done sooner. We pay with our cash, and we pay with our time. These tests could easily be offered 4 times a year.


In MI, the PS exam has 2 parts, ncees &amp; state specific. The state specific is 4hrs closed book. Its done entirely on a computer. After you finish the test, it tells you before you even get up from your seat whether you passed. Its offered multiple months a year, and multiple days a month; if you fail, you can retake in 3 months. Goes to show there are agencies out there able to deliver an inexpensive, wait-free methodology in contract exam services.


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## Mutha PE PS (Nov 13, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> In MI, the PS exam has 2 parts, ncees &amp; state specific. The state specific is 4hrs closed book. Its done entirely on a computer. After you finish the test, it tells you before you even get up from your seat whether you passed. Its offered multiple months a year, and multiple days a month; if you fail, you can retake in 3 months. Goes to show there are agencies out there able to deliver an inexpensive, wait-free methodology in contract exam services.


The KY Board for LS also offers the State specific 2hr exam at various times throughout the year. I took it in February. The exam started at 9 am went unitl 11am. The proctor had a doctors appointment and could not grade the exam immediatley. She told me to call back later. I called at 3pm and was told I passed! Results the same day!


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## humner (Nov 13, 2009)

Thank you error matrix and hart for reinforcing what I commented on. Having worked in both the private and government sectors, it is amazing how fast some things can be done if there is competition.


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## chaocl (Nov 13, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> I believe you...I'm sure it's here.
> I would like to read what the guy said so I'd love to see that thread. If he did say that, I personally would not believe him.



This link...

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=3347&amp;st=50

see under post 96 on the 2nd page!!!!

and you will see 56/80 still fail!!!

By the way I am not Admin...so ask him to see where is his ip address that we might have slicely chance to see which states that he is from...


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## IlPadrino (Nov 13, 2009)

humner said:


> Thank you error matrix and hart for reinforcing what I commented on. Having worked in both the private and government sectors, it is amazing how fast some things can be done if there is competition.


You're being silly if you think it's this simple... The process of determining pass/fail is IMPOSSIBLE to be done in a week (or a month, for that matter) given the methodology used. It's got nothing to do with lack of competition.


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## sgsmith2_PE (Nov 15, 2009)

Regardless of cut score, if you studied and took this thing seriously you'll probably pass...if you winged it more than likely you'll fail. All this cut store stuff is just something else to worry the hell out of you until you get your score...

Just forget about all this until after Christmas!


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## JoeysVee (Nov 15, 2009)

Here is the pink to the post where the guy claims he got a 56/80 and failed.

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?s=&amp;amp...t&amp;p=6600075

If I had to guess I would say he made a math error or it's simply not true. It was posted by a guest....I'm just not buying it.


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## benbo (Nov 15, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> Here is the pink to the post where the guy claims he got a 56/80 and failed.
> http://engineerboards.com/index.php?s=&amp;amp...t&amp;p=6600075
> 
> If I had to guess I would say he made a math error or it's simply not true. It was posted by a guest....I'm just not buying it.


He may have made a math error but he was a fairly regular poster and a reasonable guy. So I doubt he made it up. I also believe that at one point the moderators changed a bunch of people to guest status after they stopped posting for a while.

Of course, it could just be an alias for someone else as far as I know.


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## Road Guy (Nov 16, 2009)

he was a legit poster, I think he may have gotten deleted by accident (cough,cough, VT, cough, cough)


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## benbo (Nov 16, 2009)

I just can't see what difference it makes.

First, I don't understand how everyone can be so sure about exactly how many answers they got correct. I could approximate maybe within 3 or 4, but knowing you got exaclty 56 correct?

And if you know you got 56 correct, I don't think you have to worry much about passing, even if this one in a million poster is true.

Plus, won't most people know in three or four weeks?


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## JoeysVee (Nov 16, 2009)

benbo said:


> I just can't see what difference it makes.
> First, I don't understand how everyone can be so sure about exactly how many answers they got correct. I could approximate maybe within 3 or 4, but knowing you got exaclty 56 correct?
> 
> And if you know you got 56 correct, I don't think you have to worry much about passing, even if this one in a million poster is true.
> ...


Most people can get their score by using the diagnostics and they are not of by 3 or 4.

You are right, even if that was true, a 56 should be good to go.

Yeah we'll know in a few weeks but this subject will come up after each exam. Some people hate this subject now since it has come up so much...that's why I put the warning on the 1st post of this thread.


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## benbo (Nov 16, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> Most people can get their score by using the diagnostics and they are not of by 3 or 4.
> You are right, even if that was true, a 56 should be good to go.
> 
> Yeah we'll know in a few weeks but this subject will come up after each exam. Some people hate this subject now since it has come up so much...that's why I put the warning on the 1st post of this thread.


I'm not talking about knowing your score after you get your diagnostics. I'm talking about knowing how many you got right within one or two questions after you walk out of the exam room. For someone to worry about the cut score they would have to know almost exactly what they scored immediately after walking out of the exam. I don't believe most, or even anybody, can be that sure about their score until they get their results.

Are you saying, that if I told you now that the cut score was 54, and you thought you had 55 correct when you walked out of the exam, you would be completely relaxed and confident in passing because you are completely certain how may you got correct? I think you are a rare person.


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## FLBuff PE (Nov 16, 2009)

I walked out of my third try at the exam, knowing I got them all right. And I got a passing letter in December, so I was right!

/sarcasm


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## JoeysVee (Nov 17, 2009)

benbo said:


> I'm not talking about knowing your score after you get your diagnostics. I'm talking about knowing how many you got right within one or two questions after you walk out of the exam room. For someone to worry about the cut score they would have to know almost exactly what they scored immediately after walking out of the exam. I don't believe most, or even anybody, can be that sure about their score until they get their results.
> Are you saying, that if I told you now that the cut score was 54, and you thought you had 55 correct when you walked out of the exam, you would be completely relaxed and confident in passing because you are completely certain how may you got correct? I think you are a rare person.


I agree...some people will guess at how they did but most will not guess their score exactly right when they walk out.

No I wouldn't be relaxed because I don't know my score.

I think the intent of this thread was to discuss the range of previous cut scores among other things, ie. how the cut score is determined. I know all of this has been discussed before but it's still a big mystery and kinda fun to talk about and one of the only things to discuss as we wait.


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## benbo (Nov 17, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> I agree...some people will guess at how they did but most will not guess their score exactly right when they walk out.
> No I wouldn't be relaxed because I don't know my score.
> 
> I think the intent of this thread was to discuss the range of previous cut scores among other things, ie. how the cut score is determined. I know all of this has been discussed before but it's still a big mystery and kinda fun to talk about and one of the only things to discuss as we wait.


I understand that. I also wondered about the test score after I took the exam, although I don't know what good it really would have done me if I knew. I was sure I was far from passing and I passed. I'm not sure why it's all such a mystery, I would even sort of like to know how many I got right, although that info would also be completely useless to me.

My best guess is still that it's virtually always between 53 and 56, but that's a complete guess.


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## JoeysVee (Nov 17, 2009)

Yeah, thats about what most people are thinking in the posts above...miid to lower 50s


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## Mutha PE PS (Nov 18, 2009)

chaocl said:


> This link...http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=3347&amp;st=50
> 
> see under post 96 on the 2nd page!!!!
> 
> ...


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## hansel (Nov 20, 2009)

I just noticed that the actual number of "correct" you have is always less than the estimated number of "correct" you come to, by 3 to 5 question, using the "candidate diagnostic report" by NCEES.


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## benbo (Nov 20, 2009)

hansel said:


> I just noticed that the actual number of "correct" you have is always less than the estimated number of "correct" you come to, by 3 to 5 question, using the "candidate diagnostic report" by NCEES.


Elaborate please, with an example if you can.


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## JoeysVee (Nov 20, 2009)

hansel said:


> I just noticed that the actual number of "correct" you have is always less than the estimated number of "correct" you come to, by 3 to 5 question, using the "candidate diagnostic report" by NCEES.


Not sure I follow you. Are you saying there's a curve?


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## chaocl (Nov 20, 2009)

hansel said:


> I just noticed that the actual number of "correct" you have is always less than the estimated number of "correct" you come to, by 3 to 5 question, using the "candidate diagnostic report" by NCEES.


I think that might be true.

My supervisor got 71% and he told me that he guess 8 in the morning and 11 in the afternoon. The rest of question that he told me he is getting all of them correct (because after he using the equation and the answer come out same in one of the choices).

Let's calculate...80-8-11 = 61....base on what you said that 61 - (3 to 5) = 58,57, or 56....this equal to his result (71%)

I guess 8 in the morning and 12 in the afternoon. 80-8-12 = 60 and 60 -(3 to 5) = 57,56, or 55 is my score?

I finish all 40 question in the monrning, check again, and I still have 8 questions without final answer (But I did my best but the answer just not the same).....same thing in the afternoon but with 12 questions unknown.


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## hansel (Nov 20, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> Not sure I follow you. Are you saying there's a curve?


Sorry for the confusion.

All I am saying is that if you used your diagnostic report (or percentage correct) to calculate the approximate number of correct answer you will get a number that is always greater than the true total number of correct answer.

This means that somebody who said that, according his diagnostic report, he got 56 question correct, in fact got 56-3=53 questions correct.


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## hansel (Nov 20, 2009)

By the way, does anybody know if States can independently revise down the cut score set by NCEES?


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## benbo (Nov 20, 2009)

hansel said:


> Sorry for the confusion. All I am saying is that if you used your diagnostic report (or percentage correct) to calculate the approximate number of correct answer you will get a number that is always greater than the true total number of correct answer.
> 
> This means that somebody who said that, according his diagnostic report, he got 56 question correct, in fact got 56-3=53 questions correct.


Yes. Why do you say that? Where do you get the number three? I don't see it- the numbers seem pretty self explanatory to me, but I haven't looked at it in that great of detail.

Here's the guy who claims he got 56. Where's the discrepancy of three qestions here-

Morning Session

Environmental 50% (4/8)

Geotechnical 75% (6/8)

Structural 50% (4/8)

Transportation 75% (6/8)

Water 88% (7/8)

Total Correct: 27

Afternoon Session

Wastewater 63% (5/8*)

Biology 88% (7/8*)

Solid/Hazardous Waste 80% (4/5*)

Groundwater 60% (3/5*)

Geotechnical 100% (4/4)

Water 60% (6/10)

Total Correct: 29

Total: 56

56/80 = 0.7

Please give an example or explain where the discrepancy is.


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## benbo (Nov 20, 2009)

hansel said:


> By the way, does anybody know if States can independently revise down the cut score set by NCEES?


They can do whatever they want. but they don't.


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## hansel (Nov 20, 2009)

benbo said:


> Yes. Why do you say that? Where do you get the number three? I don't see it- the numbers seem pretty self explanatory to me, but I haven't looked at it in that great of detail.
> Here's the guy who claims he got 56. Where's the discrepancy of three qestions here-
> 
> Morning Session
> ...


I will give an example later, when I arrive home.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 20, 2009)

benbo said:


> They can do whatever they want. but they don't.


Except Georgia... they use 65 as a passing grade for veterans.


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## chaocl (Nov 20, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Except Georgia... they use 65 as a passing grade for veterans.


I am a veteran in other country. Does it count?


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## IlPadrino (Nov 21, 2009)

chaocl said:


> I am a veteran in other country. Does it count?


Uh... I'm guessing no. But do some due diligence and you'll know for sure.


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## JoeysVee (Nov 29, 2009)

chaocl said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> > Except Georgia... they use 65 as a passing grade for veterans.
> ...


What country?


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## chaocl (Dec 2, 2009)

JoeysVee said:


> chaocl said:
> 
> 
> > IlPadrino said:
> ...


I am just kidding. I am not a veterans.


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## juan (Dec 3, 2009)

The theory could be this:

If you had 40 questions in the morning session and 40 questions in the afternoon session, for each correct answer in the morning you will receive one point. For each correct answer in the afternoon you will receive one point. Thus the maximum possible total of points is 80. This is referred to as the “raw score”.

Your exam results are determined by the number of items you answered correctly for the exam in its entirety. There are no minimum requirements for particular sections of topics within an exam. You are not penalized for incorrect answers.

The raw score is then converted into “raw passing score” to determine the level of performance that corresponds with minimal competence in that discipline. This raw passing score is from 0 to 100. And the conversion from raw score to raw passing score is not linear. Thus 80 points in the raw score is as 100 raw passing points, but 40 points in the raw score is not 50 raw passing points.

Testing experts determines that conversion and it is adjusted every exam in order to maintain the same difficulty of the passing for every exam. Essentially, this means that while the numerical passing score may change with each administration, you are not disadvantaged when one administration of a particular exam is more difficult than another.

If testing experts expect the highly skilled individuals to answer 70% - 80% of the raw score (The exact weights vary, based on the difficulty of the particular exam), then the raw passing score would set between 70% of 70% = 49% and 70% of 80% = 56%. For example, if they expect the best engineers to know 80% of the exam and if the passing rate is 70%, it would correspond to about 45 correct answers.

All exams are scored the same way. First-time takers and repeat takers are graded to the same standard.

So again, using this assumption, if you don’t pass is because you didn’t get about 55% of the questions in the entire exam right, and the next try will be more difficult to pass, that is the reason for the low pass rates in repeat takers and they need to take the exam several times in order to pass. We found large differences in pass rates between first-time takers and repeat takers.

Good luck to everyone….


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## benbo (Dec 3, 2009)

juan said:


> The theory could be this:
> 
> If testing experts expect the highly skilled individuals to answer 70% - 80% of the raw score (The exact weights vary, based on the difficulty of the particular exam), then the raw passing score would set between 70% of 70% = 49% and 70% of 80% = 56%. For example, if they expect the best engineers to know 80% of the exam and if the passing rate is 70%, it would correspond to about 45 correct answers.
> 
> ...


I guess the theory could be this, but I honestly don't know where you get any of this. I think it is fairly well established from failing diagnostics that you have to get well above 55% to pass the PE. The FE is another matter - it probably has a lower test score.


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## hansel (Dec 3, 2009)

juan said:


> The theory could be this:
> If you had 40 questions in the morning session and 40 questions in the afternoon session, for each correct answer in the morning you will receive one point. For each correct answer in the afternoon you will receive one point. Thus the maximum possible total of points is 80. This is referred to as the “raw score”.
> 
> Your exam results are determined by the number of items you answered correctly for the exam in its entirety. There are no minimum requirements for particular sections of topics within an exam. You are not penalized for incorrect answers.
> ...


Man! Just your third post and you are already talking like an NCEES insider. I want to believe you and at the same time I don't want to. Yes, it always seems weird to me why repeat takers pass rates are lower than first time takers pass rate.


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## benbo (Dec 3, 2009)

There are people who work with me that have taken the test 5 times or more and failed to pass because they just go in and wing it and hope for a miracle. These are all repeat takers, obviously. THat's why their pass rates are lower.

For whatever reason they didn't pass the first time, they don't pass the second, third or fourth time.

I don't see why this is hard to understand.


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## hansel (Dec 3, 2009)

benbo said:


> There are people who work with me that have taken the test 5 times or more and failed to pass because they just go in and wing it and hope for a miracle. These are all repeat takers, obviously. THat's why their pass rates are lower.
> For whatever reason they didn't pass the first time, they don't pass the second, third or fourth time.
> 
> I don't see why this is hard to understand.


Benbo,

It is hard to understand for some of us who "though" that they put a lot of time in studying for their second try but it still did not work. Still I don't blame anybody or some "standard" but myself. Just to ask you, you think that the percentage of repeat takers who go in this test with determination to pass is lower compared to the percentage of first time takers who go in with the same determination?


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## benbo (Dec 3, 2009)

hansel said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> > There are people who work with me that have taken the test 5 times or more and failed to pass because they just go in and wing it and hope for a miracle. These are all repeat takers, obviously. THat's why their pass rates are lower.
> ...


THere are many reasons why people don't pass the exam.

There are also lots of repeat takers who study hard and just miss by a point or two. That is just luck.

A lot of people just go in without studying the first time to try it out and then have to repeat it. That makes them repeat takers. I think that if you would go in without studying the first time, you are more likely than the average person to do it again without studying. And I do know a number of people who are multiple repeat takers, and I mean up to 10 times, that just never study. And yes, I do believe that is more prevalent among repeat takers than among first time takers.

I also believe that for whatever reason people don't pass the first time, they are more likely not to pass on a repeat administration. It may be something totally out of their control, and may not even indicate how good they are as an engineer. For example, some people just have extreme test anxiety. If they have it the first time, they will likely have it even worse the second time, making it even harder for them to pass.

What really bugs me is some sort of belief that there is a different cut score for repeat takers, or some grand conspiracy against them when it just isn't true.


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## IlPadrino (Dec 3, 2009)

hansel said:


> you think that the percentage of repeat takers who go in this test with determination to pass is lower compared to the percentage of first time takers who go in with the same determination?


I'd look at it this way... the first time takers pool includes some people that will pass regardless of determination. Once these floaters are skimmed off when they pass, the percentage of sinkers increases. I think determination will certain help the sinkers float, but it's not going to raise the percentage enough to offset the lack of first time floaters.


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## EM_PS (Dec 3, 2009)

benbo said:


> A lot of people just go in without studying the first time to try it out and then have to repeat it.


the other two guys who were writing the PS with me this Oct. both admitted neither had really studied and one just flat out stated he wanted to take it just to see what its like. They didnt bring much in the way of references / texts either, so i know their chances were probably worse than 50-50. I just don't get this mentality! These tests costs $250-300+- to take, i don't understand why people like pissing that $$ down the drain, all the moreso if they end up taking multiple times.


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## hansel (Dec 3, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of people just go in without studying the first time to try it out and then have to repeat it.
> ...


Money is one of the reason I think most repeat takers don't just go into this test unless somebody is paying for their test every single try. Engineers are not paid well enough to afford to through money down the drain like that. I mean, 300 x 10 times = 3000 dows!!!

One thing I would like to point out, some people would also tell you "I did not really study" just to lower the expectation.


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## IlPadrino (Dec 3, 2009)

benbo said:


> What really bugs me is some sort of belief that there is a different cut score for repeat takers, or some grand conspiracy against them when it just isn't true.


It's certain the exam is designed to find the "minimally competent engineer" and that's only true if the standard is the same for all test takers.


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## benbo (Dec 3, 2009)

hansel said:


> error_matrix said:
> 
> 
> > benbo said:
> ...


Nope. THese are people I work very closely with - they wouldn't bs me. THey are actually given time at work to study for the test and they don't. I'd be shocked if they weren't using the time at work but were studying their asses off on their own time.


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## IlPadrino (Dec 3, 2009)

benbo said:


> Nope. THese are people I work very closely with - they wouldn't bs me. THey are actually given time at work to study for the test and they don't.


I know an ME who's taken the exam four times and refuses to study. It's so bad that last year, she didn't have the MERM with her so she just borrowed the CERM and hoped for the best. I think she's been within a few questions of passing a couple of times. And you know what they say... every know and again even a blind squirrel finds a nut.


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## Kephart P.E. (Dec 3, 2009)

I also think that for certain disciplines the pass rates are higher or lower based on need.

Civils really need a PE more than a Mech. so they are more willing to re-take. I can imagine a lot of Mech if they don't pass they just give up cause it really isn't going to help them a ton anyway depending on your field. Where this isn't the case for almost all Civils.


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## Kephart P.E. (Dec 3, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> > Nope. THese are people I work very closely with - they wouldn't bs me. THey are actually given time at work to study for the test and they don't.
> ...


I know I was almost in this case. I really considered not studing at all and seeing if I could pass. This is how I passed the FE.

So I tried some example questions and was pretty sure I would fail and I didn't want to take it twice.

Luckily for me my boss let me do some studying during my downtime on the clock.


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## DVINNY (Dec 3, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of people just go in without studying the first time to try it out and then have to repeat it.
> ...


Since I have passed the exam and have no reason to lie about it now. I am one of those people. I took the test without really studying at all the first time. I went in with just an old CERM that was 2 editions old, and decided to 'see what it was like'. I failed miserably. Then I decided to try again. The second time I was convinced I would study, etc. etc. so I paid the fee and sent in the re-app. But with a new baby in the house, and many other things happening, I ended up studying for just a few weeks. This didn't work either.

If I would have put my latter efforts into the first time I took the test, I'm not sure if I would have passed or not, but I think I'd have been close.

My point is; many peoples circumstances change from application time to test time, and there are many reasons why someone may not study properly to pass. I pissed all that $$ down the drain, but it wasn't because that's how I had planned it.


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## Slugger926 (Dec 4, 2009)

DVINNY said:


> error_matrix said:
> 
> 
> > benbo said:
> ...


I am in the same boat with ya DV. First time we went through a miscarriage, so my wife pretty much kept me from studying (missed by one question). 2nd time, my inlaws came the week before the exam instead of the week after the exam when they were supposed to but they just wanted to see their new grandaughter (missed by one question).

The third time, I took a few days off to stay at a hotel in the city of the test. I got away and got my references organized. For me, the toughest part was the endurance of solving problems for 8 hours straight and finding references quickly. My exam covered a lot of various areas from mechanical, to environmental, to civil, to electrical, and even structural.

Being rested, relaxed, organized, and having endurance built up for me was actually more important than studying. What is there to study when you already know how to solve the problems you covered in school?


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## Photo Engineer (Dec 7, 2009)

I went to college with a guy who had to take Thermodynamics 3 or 4 times because he just didn't get it. He finally passed and graduated, and now has a BSMET degree on his wall.

I also went to college with many people who sailed through their freshman classes, got bored, and now work at the corner hardware store.

The point is - a passing grade is a passing grade, whether on the first or fifth try. And a passing grade on the fifth try is a whole lot better than never attempting it in the first place (even if the person is convinced they would pass with no problems.)


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## IlPadrino (Dec 7, 2009)

Photo Engineer said:


> The point is - a passing grade is a passing grade, whether on the first or fifth try. And a passing grade on the fifth try is a whole lot better than never attempting it in the first place (even if the person is convinced they would pass with no problems.)


What about this perspective: Who would you rather have defending you in a capital murder case (let's assume you're innocent!)... a lawyer who took the bar exam five times before he passed or a lawyer who passed it on the first try? For the sake of simplicity, let's also assume they both have the same education and experience.


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## benbo (Dec 7, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Photo Engineer said:
> 
> 
> > The point is - a passing grade is a passing grade, whether on the first or fifth try. And a passing grade on the fifth try is a whole lot better than never attempting it in the first place (even if the person is convinced they would pass with no problems.)
> ...


Given everything exavtly equal, including the circumstances under which they took the exam, I'd take the first time passer.

The problem is that it is almost impossible for two engineers or lawyers to have exactly the same experience (and track record). If I was looking for a Supreme Court justice, I'd want somebody who passed the Bar the first time. If I was looking for a criminal defense attorney there are so many intangibles, involving knowing human nature, ability to address a jury, ability to read a judge or jury, etc., that are far more important than pure legal knowlege.

I guess the question is "how much does the success on this exam actually track ability to perform well as an engineer." I'm not sure about the answer to this question. In some cases you may be a super expert in a particular field, and the performance on the test doesn't reflect that. I passed the ECC electrical first time, but don't ask me to design a power grid.

But I think the point of Photo ENg's post was that you get the same credential regardless, and nobody is going to know anyway how many times you took the test.


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## buick455 (Dec 7, 2009)

What about this perspective: Who would you rather have defending you in a capital murder case (let's assume you're innocent!)... a lawyer who took the bar exam five times before he passed or a lawyer who passed it on the first try? For the sake of simplicity, let's also assume they both have the same education and experience.


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## IlPadrino (Dec 7, 2009)

buick455 said:


> so which one is now more qualified?


Remember, the PE exam isn't constructed to determine levels of qualification. It only determines *MINIMAL* competence. In theory, a 70 is minimally competent and a 69 is not. Scores can't be used to compare competence. A 70 and a 90 are both minimally competent - and that's all you know. They both passed. All other things being equal (or at least, the difference being unknown), I'll take the guy that passed the bar on the first try. And I bet you would, too. Unless you had a chance to meet the lawyers...

Benbo: You wrote "how much does the success on this exam actually track ability to perform well as an engineer." I'd bet very little. I'd personally take experience and education over examination as being better correlated to ability to perform well. Unfortunately, we have no good way to compare experience or education objectively.


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## Santiagj (Dec 7, 2009)

This arguement is exactly why we do not recieve our % grades anymore.


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## Dexman1349 (Dec 7, 2009)

Honestly, I really don't understand why knowing the cut score is so important. If you know it before-hand, you don't study any less or don't change how you take the exam. If you know it afterward, you can't change your results because you've already taken the exam.

Simply knowing your diagnostic percentages (if you fail), is all you really need to adjust your studying.

Anyways, IMO arguing the cut score is like :deadhorse:


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## Mike in Gastonia (Dec 7, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> Honestly, I really don't understand why knowing the cut score is so important. If you know it before-hand, *you don't study any less or don't change how you take the exam.* If you know it afterward, you can't change your results because you've already taken the exam.
> Simply knowing your diagnostic percentages (if you fail), is all you really need to adjust your studying.
> 
> Anyways, IMO arguing the cut score is like :deadhorse:


You'd never guess that based on the number of times it comes up on this and the PPI board! :rotflmao:


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Dec 7, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I'd look at it this way... the first time takers pool includes some people that will pass regardless of determination. Once these floaters are skimmed off when they pass, the percentage of sinkers increases. I think determination will certain help the sinkers float, but it's not going to raise the percentage enough to offset the lack of first time floaters.


If you're having issues with floaters and sinkers, you might want to brush up on your WW texts.


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## Dexman1349 (Dec 7, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> > I'd look at it this way... the first time takers pool includes some people that will pass regardless of determination. Once these floaters are skimmed off when they pass, the percentage of sinkers increases. I think determination will certain help the sinkers float, but it's not going to raise the percentage enough to offset the lack of first time floaters.
> ...


I heard the iPhone has an app for that...


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## Road Guy (Dec 7, 2009)

its 58!


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## Photo Engineer (Dec 7, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> What about this perspective: Who would you rather have defending you in a capital murder case (let's assume you're innocent!)... a lawyer who took the bar exam five times before he passed or a lawyer who passed it on the first try? For the sake of simplicity, let's also assume they both have the same education and experience.


But most lawyers don't defend people for capital murder cases. There area whole lot of non-trial attorneys (patent lawyers, contracts, union, etc) that a person who failed the bar exam a few times would do just fine.

Same thing with engineers. You may not want the engineer who failed five times doing the stress analysis on the Eiffel Tower. But you don't want the wiz kid being the on-site field representative talking with the construction crew because he'll just make everyone mad. The guy who tried thermo 3 times was great with people and I'd hire him in a minute to work with the construction crew because people respected him a lot.


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## Dark Knight (Dec 8, 2009)

A source very close to the NCEES Gods at Mount Olympus told me that there is a push to include how many times you tried to pass in the PE Certificate. Some states are fighting this but NCEES is making a strong push.

It would look like John Doe PE(I) or John Doe P.E. (II), with the roman numeral indicating how many times you had to take the test.

Of course, this is nonsense, fiction, and untrue but you guys opened the door. :mf_bounce8:


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 8, 2009)

Dark Knight said:


> Of course, this is nonsense, fiction, and untrue but you guys opened the door. :mf_bounce8:


It's no fun if you reveal your ruse in the same post.


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## Dark Knight (Dec 8, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> > Of course, this is nonsense, fiction, and untrue but you guys opened the door. :mf_bounce8:
> ...


I have a reputation to keep :Locolaugh: :Locolaugh: :Locolaugh: and do not want to be portraid as a liar.

By the way, I had to look what the heck was the meaning for *ruse*. Thanks for the lesson.


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## Dexman1349 (Dec 8, 2009)

Dark Knight said:


> A source very close to the NCEES Gods at Mount Olympus told me that there is a push to include how many times you tried to pass in the PE Certificate. Some states are fighting this but NCEES is making a strong push.
> It would look like John Doe PE(I) or John Doe P.E. (II), with the roman numeral indicating how many times you had to take the test.


So THAT explains the Structural II exam...


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## benbo (Dec 8, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> > A source very close to the NCEES Gods at Mount Olympus told me that there is a push to include how many times you tried to pass in the PE Certificate. Some states are fighting this but NCEES is making a strong push.
> ...


Structural - the test so nice, I had to take it twice.


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 8, 2009)

Dark Knight said:


> By the way, I had to look what the heck was the meaning for *ruse*. Thanks for the lesson.


That would be another example of movies expanding my vocabulary. I still remember that word from when Randall used it in Clerks.

I also learned the word superfluous from the movie Father of the Bride when I was in middle school. I used it in class one day and my teacher almost fainted.


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## RevMen (Dec 8, 2009)

One problem I have with the PE exam being a gage for engineering competency is the way it forces you to work so many problems in such a short time. Not once in my career have I had a supervisor looking over my shoulder with a stopwatch while I solved a problem. In a normal day it usually takes me 4 to 8 hours of work to answer a single question.

Being fast is not the same as being correct. People that can work more quickly will probably be more profitable but that doesn't mean they'll come up with better answers. The states don't care about how fast we answer questions, they care about how correctly we answer questions.

Test taking is a skill in and of itself. Some people are just better at it. I admit that I am a pretty good test taker; if my grades were based purely on my homework I probably wouldn't have graduated. I ended up getting an 86 on the FE last year, even though I graduated in 2002 and didn't study as much as some people. I'm certain there are better engineers out there who did not score that high. Certainly there are good engineers who just suck at taking tests and had to take the PE several times to pass it.

So yes, I agree that the exam should only be seen as a test of minimum competency and nothing else should be drawn from that. I don't think it's fair or even a good idea to make a determination of a person's competency as an engineer based on how many tries it took them to pass the damn thing.

I would argue that an employer who puts any consideration on a person's PE performance (beyond pass/fail) isn't doing a very good job of evaluating a job candidate's qualifications. I'm not aware of any firms that require their employees to sit down for 8 hours and solve 80 different 6-minute problems spanning multiple disciplines.


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