# AM DEPTH ; PM BREADTH - GOOD OR BAD IDEA?



## EBAT75 (Nov 1, 2020)

Will it help if NCEES would switch the AM and PM modules to Depth in the morning and Breadth in the afternoon? Just to get a feel for the feeling among those who have  taken the exam.


----------



## dauwerda (Nov 2, 2020)

No, for me I liked the idea of warming up with the shorter multiple choice questions in the morning with some simple ones in there to help build confidence and move past the, "what did I get myself into?" jitter stage. Then, after making it through this, I felt better about tackling the longer afternoon depth problems.


----------



## JP87 (Nov 2, 2020)

Yea, I think they should keep it how it is...everything goes to [email protected]#* once the depth portion starts...


----------



## EBAT75 (Nov 4, 2020)

I see the logic in the replies. My angle was this. The PM problems have many sub-parts. In the aggregate they are also like breadth questions except some topics like AASHTO are not there. One does not have to be going hither and thither for references even on the same material. It is time wasted.

Whereas, after all the going back and forth, the PM energy level is lower at a time when more concentration is needed for the depth problems. If the PM is shorter multiple choice and a couple of choices can be judged to be non-answers, the overall stress management becomes easier. And a few questions can even be guessed through experiential judgment.

Unlike in the 40 MCQs, there are no low hanging fruits to pluck in the essay questions. Why I thought why not ask.
 

Anyway, thanks to dauwerda and JP87.


----------



## Br_Engr (Nov 5, 2020)

Actually, I thought a big benefit with the MCQs in the AM was it helped with finding things in the codes with the afternoon problems.  I would not want to have to do the in-depth essay questions trying to flip through the codes "cold."


----------



## organix (Nov 5, 2020)

EnergizerBunnyAt75 said:


> Unlike in the 40 MCQs, there are no low hanging fruits to pluck in the essay questions. Why I thought why not ask.


I think that's why I'd prefer it in the morning actually.  I just went through all 40 MCQs in order, answering only ones I had a high level of confidence on.  It helps build some momentum.  Then I did second and third passes to wrap it all up.  It can kind of build a level of confidence to work into harder problems.  I could see trying the depth portion first and feeling much more overwhelmed as it's harder to skip around.  You'd be more forced to tackle what's there right away.


----------



## Reverse Polish (Nov 5, 2020)

I found it quite satisfying to build confidence during the multiple choice, only to be followed by the merciless afternoon bone crushing.  You literally feel the life exiting from your body. 

If the essay questions were given in the morning, I expect a lot of people wouldn't return from lunch.


----------



## EBAT75 (Nov 5, 2020)

The “nayes” have it.


----------



## Br_Engr (Nov 5, 2020)

Reverse Polish said:


> I found it quite satisfying to build confidence during the multiple choice, only to be followed by the merciless afternoon bone crushing.  You literally feel the life exiting from your body.
> 
> _*YIKES!*_
> 
> ...


----------



## AndieWoooooooo (Nov 6, 2020)

I agree with most of the comments. It is really good to have MCQs first to get you into the SE exam. Then after lunch you want to come back for the depth. If the depth happened first, I really think I could be one of who does not want to come back!


----------



## Br_Engr (Nov 7, 2020)

Think of the MCQs like stretching before playing the "game" that are the afternoon essay problems.


----------



## Derek S. Lee (Apr 8, 2021)

Br_Engr said:


> Think of the MCQs like stretching before playing the "game" that are the afternoon essay problems.


MCQ will seem like a stretching compared to these tasks. I think with afternoon essay problems anyone can face. I often had similar problems, especially in a specialized subject. And I've always asked for help in situations like this. Here's a review of one of the sites I've used Review of TutorsUmbrella.com. Read about their ratings and prices But still, these tasks remain very time and resource-intensive and require constant personal control.


----------



## EBAT75 (Apr 8, 2021)

I am not trying to convince anyone but I am a contrarian. Here is how I view my original interest in floating the thought.

The essays are the Achilles heel. If those who did not pass are polled, I think it would be borne out that more examinees performed “better” in the MCQ than in the essays. A way to quantify the PM is to weight the essays, say Acceptable 7, Needs Improvement 5, Unacceptable 4. This gives a numerical indicator for AM-PM comparison.

It will then give some clues. If AM scores are significantly higher, and if MCQs are the stretches before the game, does it mean people get tired in the PM? This may or not be a scientific indication but as scores are not given out for the PM, my penny’s thought. Each PM question has 4 or 5 parts which can also be stretchers.

Having opened the thread in November I was not dreaming that NCEES would even go that route. Just an after exam thought. EOF for me.


----------



## Titleistguy (Apr 9, 2021)

Your theory is sound but what data do you have to show that the afternoon is in fact harder? Despite the problems being hand written I find them easier bc they allow for engineering judgement and really exist in my opinion to evaluate process.

I see am as a code application test. I see pm as an engineering judgement / approach test.

I personally find the am more intimidating and as such like the idea of doing it first when I’m freshest.


----------



## EBAT75 (Apr 9, 2021)

Titleistguy said:


> Your theory is sound but what data do you have to show that the afternoon is in fact harder?


The second paragraph answers this. Why data collection was suggested.

To each his or her own.


----------



## Titleistguy (Apr 9, 2021)

One thing I’d love to see them do is either get rid of the cold formed steel completely or actually make it a more robust portion of the test and give it more questions and worth studying. Frankly I’d rather study for 2-4 cfs and have them back off bridges a bit instead bc despite using neither material in my work I’d be far more likely to use CFS. 

Right now as one question it’s not worth the time prepping and it’s also, I assume, outside of enough people’s wheel houses that it’s like starting the test with one wrong already. Same goes for prestressed, either cover it more broadly or don’t at all.


----------



## EBAT75 (Apr 9, 2021)

TG, I hear you loud and clear. I can see them going for more CFS in time, simply for the reason you mentioned. But until more use is made of CFS by the industry and examinees would be expected to show proficiency in CFS to protect public safety, it may not happen in time for us. 

I would make an educated guess instead of spending hours and hours on 1 question. If you eliminate 2 choices, it is not a bad bet 50-50 or better.

The AASHTO topic is the harder one. How many building engineers would work on bridges and vice versa. Why they would not have separate set of questions beats me. I feel it is harder on the bridges examinees, but then whether their passing score for the AM session is weighted differently, we won’t know. Overall the passing rates are not very different between the two groups.

The problem with prestressed is that while most buildings engineers would not design prestressed structures per se, many may need to specify pre-tensioned precast slab systems and require some knowledge of what goes into manufacturing and specifications.


----------

