# Are Engineers Expendable



## rppearso (Nov 18, 2009)

Looking at the job market the way it is, a resession like this should separate thoes in society that are expendable and thoes that are not. It seems that the carrer of engineering is indeed expendable, I definitly dont get the feeling that I am immune from lay offs because I am an engineer and have seen many engineers laid off with 2-3 days notice. You would not see behavior like this with labor unions, maybe engineers need to unionize as im not seeing the medical doctor level of value assigned to engineers, it seems we are only a quarter step up from a general laborer. I feel kind of duped into getting into the field of engineering, it is suppose to be highly respected, high job security, high pay gig but sometimes I feel like I could have done just as well without a 140K education of which I had to pay for half and still have 27K in state loans to pay back. Maybe its just the USA that does not value engineering, I dont know. I would love some feed back because I am really regretting getting into the carrer path and am really thinking about doing something else (law, medical, etc).


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## benbo (Nov 18, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Looking at the job market the way it is, a resession like this should separate thoes in society that are expendable and thoes that are not. It seems that the carrer of engineering is indeed expendable, I definitly dont get the feeling that I am immune from lay offs because I am an engineer and have seen many engineers laid off with 2-3 days notice. You would not see behavior like this with labor unions, maybe engineers need to unionize as im not seeing the medical doctor level of value assigned to engineers, it seems we are only a quarter step up from a general laborer. I feel kind of duped into getting into the field of engineering, it is suppose to be highly respected, high job security, high pay gig but sometimes I feel like I could have done just as well without a 140K education of which I had to pay for half and still have 27K in state loans to pay back. Maybe its just the USA that does not value engineering, I dont know. I would love some feed back because I am really regretting getting into the carrer path and am really thinking about doing something else (law, medical, etc).


I think your first mistake was paying 140K. You can do it a lot cheaper. Doctors do okay, but lot's of lawyers are out of work too.


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## rppearso (Nov 18, 2009)

Well I had a half ride, but yea I still had 73K in loans and I have 27K in state loans left and 18 in federal but the federal are like 90$ a month (and can be defered for up to 6 months to a year in the event of a lay off where as the state loans they will take you to collections) so thats not bad, but the state loans I need to get paid off ASAP. Yea, I am thinking about going back for a EE degree (much cheaper this time like 500$ a class for 8 classes lol) that way I have some lattitude and maybe even get a second PE (well im still waiting on my chemical PE but im pretty sure I passed). The problem was the degree I was looking for was not offered in my state and I was accepted to the colorado school of mines so I jumped thinking a degree from that school would be an in after I graduated I was unemployed for a year so I kinda got burned and I could have went to a wuei school but thats life, at least our degree is laser etched silver lol, so it looks cool. I guess things could be worse.


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## roadwreck (Nov 18, 2009)

benbo said:


> I think your first mistake was paying 140K. You can do it a lot cheaper. Doctors do okay, but lot's of lawyers are out of work too.


Agreed, where on earth did you go or how long did you stay in school to spend 140k?

Are engineers expendable? Yes. If they stop building things you usually don't have much need for engineers. What you want to avoid is being the most expendable. You don't have to out swim the shark, you just can't be the slowest swimmer.


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## MGX (Nov 18, 2009)

Yes engineers are expendable like everyone else.

Personally the strategy I've used is to do annual inspections to make money during the softer times when design work is low. Ideally I'd like to have many investments including real estate so a dip in the economy won't rock my boat too much.

Engineering can be capricious.


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## RM-270 (Nov 18, 2009)

I know it can seem like we are treated pretty bad at times. But for me personally (and I guess it does come down to a personal choice), I can't see myself doing anything else (especially Law; zero interest for me there). I just have too much interest in this and have sunk too much time in it. [Even in my spare time, I find myself reading about our profession.] I know what you mean by our being treated as expendable (as I am unemployed). I have worked for numerous firms and it's safe to say it's rare to find a good, stable, well-run outfit to work for. I think that it the key to enjoying what you do. The key to any good firm is management that understands _good people are not expendable _and cannot be obtained at will. One place I use to work at had me leading jobs; and they had the mentality that you could just move people around like luggage [i.e. on and off your project like crazy] and somehow everything would turn out ok. Doesn't work that way.

Anyway, like I said: it all boils down to *who* you are working for (and if they have the good sense to diversify as well). Good luck to you sir.


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## rppearso (Nov 19, 2009)

Thank you for the replys, I think I am just going to keep plugging along, I think the biggest thing that bothers me are thoes student loans because there is no asset to get rid of if I cant pay (like my condo) and fortunatly my truck is paid for and in tip top condition so I have reliable transportation if something happens. I cant wait to get thoes loans paid then I can actually afford to be unemployed, once my condo is paid for it will be even better. I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money. Such is life, I agree engineering is what I enjoy, if I were put in a position where I had to sell my place I would probably take my time going back to work and just chill for a while at my parents, I would not be jumping up and down to get back in the metal wheel. I used to be apart of a great company but they were bought out so now we are basicly going down the drain, the company is a multinational so they could care less about this branch, they will probably keep it as a sales office but thats about it. At least this time I will be looking for a new job with nearly 5 years experience and hopefully a PE so thats alot better than a new grad with a laser etched silver degree lol.


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## BluSkyy (Nov 19, 2009)

details matter.


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## Road Guy (Nov 19, 2009)

when it comes down to it, anyone can be replaced, regardless of proffession. from the fry cook at mcodnalds to the white house.


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## TouchDown (Nov 19, 2009)

Agreed, I work in manufacturing in the US. It is clearer than ever that engineers are important to work to improve production, so we will use less labor to create parts - so we can compete with overseas... but, the fact is that engineers are still overhead. When times get tough, easy way to cut costs is to cut overhead.

Everyone can be expendable. There are NO protected jobs. Even doctors with healthcare reform / lack of tort reform / etc. will have to make adjustments and I guarantee that if there is ANY fat left in any area, it will be trimmed.

Like it or not, it will be unbelievably difficult for the next generations. I worry about job outlooks and my kids at this point.


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## MechGuy (Nov 19, 2009)

rppearso said:


> I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money.


I am really confused by this statement (not that its hard to confuse me!)

Why do you think people who started their careers in the 70s were in "the gravey train days?" Are you jealous just because they are at a future point in their life and careers than you are?

First of all this is a pretty broad statement, as I know plenty of people who started their careers in the 70s who are in poor financial positions and can't retire anytime soon. You life is what you make it...

Secondly, there's no point of being jealous of someone else, especially someone who is 30-40 years older. You can't even compare your apples to their oranges. Everyone's path through life is different...

ok I'm off the soapbox. Good luck in the future. still baffeled by $140K for an engineering degree.... my degree was from a pretty prestegious school and was 20-30% of that cost... it pays to shop around!


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## Guest (Nov 19, 2009)

Agree with the other posters.

As far as forming a union, I don't believe that would be the least bit effective. Not in this economy. Look at the formerly powerful unions like UAW; they are mere shells of their former selves AND those people have been shown to not only be expendable but unable to find employment in other fields/sectors.

My feeling is that one must remain positive regardless of chosen profession - this economy is biting ALL of us in the toocus!

JR


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## RM-270 (Nov 19, 2009)

I'm no fan of unions either. But sometimes I think we should organize in some official fashion to make our voices heard. Perhaps joining organizations like ASCE is the answer. But here's the thing: I haven't joined them because I rabidly oppose some of their proposals [i.e. "raising the bar' for one; I have an MS (and am a PE) and I think it's a ridiculous idea]. I guess that approach has allowed them to go without hearing alternate view points. We need to speak up more often.

But nothing can replace well run organizations. And I think more of us need to start our own businesses as well.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 19, 2009)

An engineer speak up? Are you kidding me? Most of us can barely look up from our own shoes. What makes you think we can handle any kind of confrontation? 

But I agree with most of the posts above. EVERYONE is expendible. Ironically enough, one of the first pieces of advice I was given once I started my Engineer career was, "Train your replacement. If you can't be replaced, you can't be promoted."


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## benbo (Nov 19, 2009)

> I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money


Oh man, I got a chuckle out of this. Make that a belly laugh,

Sure, a lot of people who worked 30 years have their houses paid off, so will you if you play your cards right. But "gravy train?" Economic cycles always happen.

I got my first serious engineering job in 1982 - Hughes Aircraft. Good long run until 1992, but then laid off when aerospace took a dump. I was lucky to last that long. It took me 6 months and 50 interviews to find a job. It was terrifying. I basically had to beg for that job in semiconductors.

Worked 7 years at that and then the high tech bubble burst. Panic time again.

Now I work for the California government. I'll have seven years in next year. Now, I know California is in bad shape and I know something has to and is going to be done about it. There are already furloughs, although I've dodged them. But now Meg Whitman is running for governor and threatening to lay off 40,000 workers. I'm conservative, and maybe that has to be done. Doesn't mean I'm not scared and doesn't mean I want to be looking for a job at 55 years. I could probably retire, but it would be tight. Plus I like working.

So, even if you work a long time doesn't mean you've always had it made.


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## rppearso (Nov 19, 2009)

Sorry I was vauge, I am refering to the alaska oil pipeline and they really were gravy train days. Also people in thoes days would work with arco for 10-15 years with a massive severance package thats more than enough time to pay off loans and be sitting fairly comfortable when you go to look for a new job, you might have to cut some of your beer money down but they certianly were not facing bankrupcy. I barely got enough time in to get my PE and when/if I am cut I will still have tons of loans and may have to declair bankrupcy if I have to forclose on my condo if I cant sell it for at least what I owe on it. I probably paid to much for my education but such is life, I had half of it paid for so it cost me 70K, I thought a degree from colorado school of mines would give me a MUCH better chance getting my foot in the door and would advance me faster, that was party true but not 70K true lol, I thought the PE would be a huge credibility booster and really its a "feather in your cap" not a jet pack, so I have been over estimating things as soon as I finished high school. I guess I am just venting, my GF and I are talking about getting married and over seas is not out of the question, and the over seas positions that bring in the benjamins are not the safest. People keep saying there is going to be a huge shortage of engineers as soon as the older engineers retire but because of the financial situation they are still working up into there 80's so I dont think that is going to transpire until im like 40. To much supply to little demand.


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## RM-270 (Nov 20, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> An engineer speak up? Are you kidding me? Most of us can barely look up from our own shoes. What makes you think we can handle any kind of confrontation?


In all seriousness: I think that's part of the problem. We just have this character trait where we are afraid to speak out/up. In other professions, there would be a near riot over what some of these organizations [that profess to represent us] have proposed. But engineers? Sheep. And if history has taught us anything: sheep get slaughtered. I remember how co-workers reacted to me when I had a letter appear in a trade magazine some years ago discussing an ASCE proposal (basically denouncing their "raise the bar" stance)......and the way my co-workers reacted you would have thought a mob Don had put out a contract on me. (Even people who agreed with me.) I mean, come on people: what's with the fear? Grow a pair.


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## Supe (Nov 20, 2009)

RM-270 said:


> In all seriousness: I think that's part of the problem. We just have this character trait where we are afraid to speak out/up. In other professions, there would be a near riot over what some of these organizations [that profess to represent us] have proposed. But engineers? Sheep. And if history has taught us anything: sheep get slaughtered. I remember how co-workers reacted to me when I had a letter appear in a trade magazine some years ago discussing an ASCE proposal (basically denouncing their "raise the bar" stance)......and the way my co-workers reacted you would have thought a mob Don had put out a contract on me. (Even people who agreed with me.) I mean, come on people: what's with the fear? Grow a pair.



You know, this is another reason I think office engineers should have to spend some time in the field.

When I was in the Houston office, the attitude was verbatim what you've described with 99% of the engineers. Here on the job site, it's the complete opposite. I think part of it is due to the fact that most of the engineers here have practiced their respective craft prior to becoming an engineer, but more often than not, if the craft/foremen see an engineer coming their direction, a prompt "oh shit" typically emanates from that area. The attitude is the complete opposite.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 20, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> ... but, the fact is that engineers are still overhead. When times get tough, easy way to cut costs is to cut overhead.


Yeah, I learned that the hard way. It was difficult at first not to take it personally, but it is just business. Since I wasn't sales, I wasn't pushing product and bringing in money.



> Like it or not, it will be unbelievably difficult for the next generations. I worry about job outlooks and my kids at this point.


My Dad once told me during the 91 recession that if he knew then what he knew now, he'd have advised me to go into plumbing, HVAC or auto repair. Recessionproof industries that pay fairly well. Probably good advice if they like working with their hands.


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## Flyer_PE (Nov 20, 2009)

One of the reasons I'm in the power industry is that the defense industry wasn't hiring when I graduated in the Spring of 1990. My logic in accepting the job offer from the utility was that regardless of economic circumstances, people will always want their lights to work.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 20, 2009)

Flyer_PE said:


> One of the reasons I'm in the power industry is that the defense industry wasn't hiring when I graduated in the Spring of 1990.


I got in the DoD right before the freeze, 6/89. 2/90, they pretty much quit hiring.


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## rppearso (Nov 20, 2009)

Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.


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## Fluvial (Nov 20, 2009)

RM-270 said:


> In all seriousness: I think that's part of the problem. We just have this character trait where we are afraid to speak out/up. In other professions, there would be a near riot over what some of these organizations [that profess to represent us] have proposed.


If you're interested, you might consider American Council of Engineering Companies (ACEC)  as an alternative to ASCE. The ACEC leads a substantial lobbying effort on both the national and local levels. I personally have been down to our State legislature a few times in concert with other members of ACEC-MS to support or decry certain legislation. ACEC really does try to emphasize the importance of the engineering community without getting all bogged down in the things which ASCE does. Here is a link to their advocacy page.

@ rppearso: Please don't take this as a slam, but if you are focused on making gobs of money, I don't think engineering is going to satisfy you.


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## MGX (Nov 21, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.


This is the worst time of year to think of starting an auto repair shop. You'll be living fat in the summer and starving in the winter. Before going back to school I was an auto tech for six years and its full of pitfalls just like engineering or anything else.

If you want to make great money you need to charge 100 hours a week which also means you need to be damned good. Most weeks I could turn in 60-80 but the top guys could do 100. Of course all the money one needs to sink into proprietary tools is sad.


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## MechGuy (Nov 21, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> @ rppearso: Please don't take this as a slam, but if you are focused on making gobs of money, I don't think engineering is going to satisfy you.



I couldn't agree more. rrpearso, in my opinion, you are focusing on the wrong things.


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## roadwreck (Nov 21, 2009)

I don't believe there is "a career" that will make you rich. Yes, some jobs pay more, but if you spend all that you make each month you will never be "rich". Paying off your home, buying a lake house, working for beer money, etc., etc., is possible if you expenditures are in line with your income. You don't have to be working a job making six figures to make that happen, you just have to be smart with the money you already make.

:2cents:


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 21, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.


Do you understand what your billable rate goes to pay for?

The typical hourly billable rate for production guys are calculated by the following:

Base salary + overhead margin (~2.5x base salary*) + profit (average of 15%)

*depending on your company, this is determined by the overhead backing your company provides. This includes everything from your health benefits to the office rent to your office supplies to your receptionist and on and on and on. Obviously it is in your company's best interest to lower this mulitplier to maximize profits and make your billable rate more competitive.

So if you make $25 gross per hour:

Base salary = $25

overhead = 2.5x $25 = $62.50

profit margin = ($25+$62.50)x0.15 = ~$13

Total = $99.50

So you see when you make $25 per hour after your company billed you out at $100, the company is only making about $13 profit per hour. This is also why you will never see a pay rate of 80% of your billable rate (unless of course you don't want benefits, don't need office supplies, work from home, and don't have anyone handling the business side of your company - including marketing).

Obviously the profit margin can fluctuate depending on where you sit on the corporate ladder. Most companies build higher profit margins (up to 25%) into their production personnel, and very low profits into their upper management (as low as 1-3%). So if you want to make $80 per hour as a production guy, you need to be billing out at over $320 per hour (15% profit for the company).

I don't want to call you an idiot, but I think your statements are grossly mis-informed. Your statements of wanting to make 80% of your billable rate simply indicates you have never been put into a project management position and have not been introduced to the business side of engineering. If you have questions about how your billable rates are calculated, I would suggest sitting down with your someone in your office who is responsible for determining these rates.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 21, 2009)

IMO, the only truly expendible jobs are related to "Want" based things (entertainment, luxury items, etc). As long as people need a place to live, a place to exchange food &amp; supplies, a place to work, and a means to get from one to the other, engineers will be needed (civil, structural, chemical, electrical, mechanical, etc.).

I'm not saying that ALL of the engineers currently employed are needed (or who are in school). Like all things, if there are too many in the industry to provide the services that are in demand, some will be let go.


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## rppearso (Nov 21, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> Do you understand what your billable rate goes to pay for?
> The typical hourly billable rate for production guys are calculated by the following:
> 
> Base salary + overhead margin (~2.5x base salary*) + profit (average of 15%)
> ...


When I talked to the outfit that gives out 90% of the bill rate the 10% you pay is strictly for marketing and he said they also cover errors and omission insurance on your PE since they get a bulk rate, there are no benifits you make what you work but its close to 100$ an hour, also a big part of the marketing is done through net working through the members themselves. They dont need office space because they succund you to client companies so the client company supplies your computer and office space, the client ususally owns the building you work in (BP, Conoco, etc) so they are paying for the lights and heat no matter what. I am definitly working to make myself "damn good" that way I can hopefully somewhat write my own ticket, my goal is to become a contractor and be able to work directly for the client through an outfit like the one I applied for or through the E&amp;C but ensure that im on the requred list from the client and basicly give the E&amp;C 0 profit from my services but they would have to have me on the project team because the client can set the personal list. So I understand what you are saying but my goal is to break away from that, that whole office space overhead blah blah is how wal mart worker work and thats exactly what I want to break away from. They dont allow us to bill to downtime anymore anyways without putting us on furlough so why should they be getting anymore than 10% of my bill rate, the fact that they have all these expenses is not really my problem.

As far as money managment I agree the student loan burden I have really hoses up my finances but I can save enough to make balloon payments so I hope to have them paid off by next christmas and have been in ultra cheap skate mode this year and will be next year, then next is to pay off the condo so that I can afford to be unemployed when I jump into contracting, between now and then I have to make sure I have rock star reputation. Also they are not giving me a bump in pay for my PE so im not going to tell anyone I passed but just put it on my resume for other jobs im applying for. If I cant pull this off I will probably be working until im 80 years old to achive my finanical goals.


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## Fluvial (Nov 21, 2009)

rppearso said:


> they succund you to client companies


Could you explain what this means? I don't know what "succund" means.



> So I understand what you are saying but my goal is to break away from that, that whole office space overhead blah blah is how wal mart worker work and thats exactly what I want to break away from.


The fact is that it's not "blah blah blah", it's the nuts and bolts of how profitability works in engineering firms. There are trade-offs to working as a contractor, such as paying your own health insurance and other expenses. No worries, though. You'll find out eventually.


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## rppearso (Nov 22, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> Could you explain what this means? I don't know what "succund" means.
> 
> 
> The fact is that it's not "blah blah blah", it's the nuts and bolts of how profitability works in engineering firms. There are trade-offs to working as a contractor, such as paying your own health insurance and other expenses. No worries, though. You'll find out eventually.


Succunded means that you work for company XYZ but you are on an exclusive AFE for a specific client and can not be pulled by company XYZ for other things, basicly you have a client email, buisness card everything, you just get a pay check through XYZ. That is pretty much how the company I applied for operates because they dont maintain office space but contractors have to be part of a "company" in order to get client work for liability reasons (ie the client company does not like giving Joe a special contract as an individual anymore because they have been sued for direct hire retirement benifits becuase the contractor could prove they were basic a client employee.

As far as health insurance and all that even if I paid for my own health insurance its not going to cost me 60$/hr for insurance, they cut out the 401K matching, education benifits and all downtime so health insurance is the only thing left which is not worth (60$/hr * 8hrs/day * 20 days/month) thats alot of money lol. I have heard that E&amp;C's have had to cut there bill rate to remain competitive but they could still give me a 50% raise and still be making money off me.


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## Fluvial (Nov 22, 2009)

Well, thanks for that explanation of 'succund'. I couldn't find that word in the dictionary.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 22, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> Could you explain what this means? I don't know what "succund" means.


He/she doesn't know how it's spelled... try secund! It's from the latin _secundus _ which means "following".


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## IlPadrino (Nov 22, 2009)

roadwreck said:


> Agreed, where on earth did you go or how long did you stay in school to spend 140k?


Have you seen what tuition costs these days? Top-tier private schools are around $50k a year! My alma mater now costs $35k/year for tuition, $6k/year for housing, and $5k/year for meals.

Thank god for the new GI Bill that I can transfer to my kid!


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## intech (Nov 22, 2009)

There is no way on earth that any company charges only 10%. "Cost" for any individual employee is more than 10%, not even including fixed overhead or profit. The employer portion of Social Security alone is over 7%. Add on fed and state unemployment, worker's comp, general liability insurance, payroll expenses, etc.

I think they're lying to you. Or they're operating at a loss, and what are the chances of that happening?

Believe me, I've been in the engineering businees for 32 years, the last 9 of which I've owned my own stafiing company. I know exactly what the costs are.

By the way, I think he's trying to say "seconded." Spelling is a little off (thoes?)


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## IlPadrino (Nov 22, 2009)

intech said:


> By the way, I think he's trying to say "seconded." Spelling is a little off (thoes?)


No... he means secunded. I assume he's suggesting the using company pays most of the overhead expenses.


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## rppearso (Nov 22, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> No... he means secunded. I assume he's suggesting the using company pays most of the overhead expenses.


Yes this is correct. As far as unemployment and federal taxes you are required to file your own taxes and carry your own liability insurance, the only thing they carry is errors and omissions and marketing, your basicly acting as an individual contractor but because the client companies no longer give out individual contracts to Joe you have to be apart of a "contracting outfit", its basicly employee owned and ran. Also there are no state taxes where I am at.

Even if they took 17% thats way better than 66% which is what im getting shafted with now, if this were splitting hairs over a few percent I would not have even posted this but I think alot people are geting royally ripped off and the entire field of engineering lacks alot of respect. Since one of you is in the military here, the military does not even recognize engineering degrees as professionals (ie get to skip basic and OCS and start off as a capt like doctors and JAG do, even if you have a PE, masters or PhD in engineering you still wont get a direct commission to capt like docs and JAG get. When I was in the gaurd for 2 years I was treated as any rank and file private and that did not sit well with me hence the 2 year part. The profession does not really command any respect anymore, it really is very sad.


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## benbo (Nov 22, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Have you seen what tuition costs these days? Top-tier private schools are around $50k a year! My alma mater now costs $35k/year for tuition, $6k/year for housing, and $5k/year for meals.
> Thank god for the new GI Bill that I can transfer to my kid!


It's certainly possible, even easy to spend that much, but certainly not necessary for an engineering degree. I wouldn't go to a place like that unless I had significant aid in the form of grants and scholarships.

In California you can get an engineering degree with a lot of panache at instate flagships like Berkeley or UCLA for a lot less money (at least for the time being although the news sort of shows that may change). And you can get a reasonable degree at any state school.


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## roadwreck (Nov 22, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Have you seen what tuition costs these days? Top-tier private schools are around $50k a year! My alma mater now costs $35k/year for tuition, $6k/year for housing, and $5k/year for meals.
> Thank god for the new GI Bill that I can transfer to my kid!


Simple solution, go to a state school. Even out-of-state costs aren't going to run you up to $140k.


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## rppearso (Nov 22, 2009)

roadwreck said:


> Simple solution, go to a state school. Even out-of-state costs aren't going to run you up to $140k.


Actually they do after 5 years including room/board and books, in state and out of state is a significant differernce.


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## roadwreck (Nov 22, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Actually they do after 5 years including room/board and books, in state and out of state is a significant differernce.


I know there is a significant difference between in-state tuition and out of state tuition, but still, paying out of state tuition at a state school isn't that bad. Much more reasonable that going to a private school. I would know, I went out of state to a state school. It wasn't a half bad school either. If you can get some scholarships, grants and work while your in school (I co-oped) you can make it out without being in mountains of debt.


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## rppearso (Nov 22, 2009)

roadwreck said:


> I know there is a significant difference between in-state tuition and out of state tuition, but still, paying out of state tuition at a state school isn't that bad. Much more reasonable that going to a private school. I would know, I went out of state to a state school. It wasn't a half bad school either. If you can get some scholarships, grants and work while your in school (I co-oped) you can make it out without being in mountains of debt.


Technically Colorado School of Mines was a state school but everything about them really was private, I had a half ride but still had 70K in debt, but boulder was just as expensive, work while in school is kind of a joke seeing as how much time it takes away from your studies and how small of a dent it makes in teh over all expense of everthing and co-ops just drag school out I did not want to have to be there any longer than I had to be, not having a car and not getting laid was not something I wanted to drag on. I just did my finances for 2010 and can have my loans paid before next christmas so then I can start working on my mortgage and pay that off in a few years then contracting will be viable becasue I will only need like 10K to live on for like a few years and by that time that should put me in the 7-10 years of experience sweet spot so we will see what happens. My second degree in EE is definitly going to be piece mailed and at instate tuition rates so like 500$ class for about 12 classes.


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## roadwreck (Nov 22, 2009)

sounds like you have it all figured out


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## IlPadrino (Nov 23, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Since one of you is in the military here, the military does not even recognize engineering degrees as professionals (ie get to skip basic and OCS and start off as a capt like doctors and JAG do, even if you have a PE, masters or PhD in engineering you still wont get a direct commission to capt like docs and JAG get. When I was in the gaurd for 2 years I was treated as any rank and file private and that did not sit well with me hence the 2 year part. The profession does not really command any respect anymore, it really is very sad.


It's a simple supply and demand relationship... the military has to offer incentives to get the docs and lawyers that they don't have to offer for other professions. Interestingly, the Navy's Civil Engineer Corps now has a Critical Skills Retention Bonus (CSRB) designed to keep junior officers in. Leadership would have laughed at the thought of this ten years ago. But it's not nothing with "respect".

If you're looking for "title" respect, Engineering is the wrong field! And in the military, title respect is only earned with time (which leads to promotion!). Don't think the docs or lawyers get treated any differently than a boot ensign when they first enter service.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 23, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Actually they do after 5 years including room/board and books, in state and out of state is a significant differernce.


Except in SC where it is actually CHEAPER in some cases for an SC resident to go out of state/ That is a ridiculous state of affairs, but there it is.



roadwreck said:


> sounds like you have it all figured out


I got that impression from the beginning.


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## MechGuy (Nov 23, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> If you're looking for "title" respect, Engineering is the wrong field! And in the military, title respect is only earned with time (which leads to promotion!). Don't think the docs or lawyers get treated any differently than a boot ensign when they first enter service.


I spent 7 years as a civil engineer in the Air Force, and most folks in the military had little to no "respect" for the medical or JAG corps. IlPadrino is correct, respect in the military is earned...certainly not given because you are a doctor or lawyer in the military and happen to be an officer.


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## picusld (Nov 23, 2009)

MechGuy said:


> I spent 7 years as a civil engineer in the Air Force, and most folks in the military had little to no "respect" for the medical or JAG corps. IlPadrino is correct, respect in the military is earned...certainly not given because you are a doctor or lawyer in the military and happen to be an officer.


Agreed. I did 6yrs in the Air Force National Guard and completed my civil engineering degree while in the service. I was offered a retention bonus to stay in, but declined it since my job was in aircraft maintenance.

I was a little suprised though that I was not approached to stay in the service doing an engineering job. After all, it was their money that covered my tuition and living expenses while in school, but oh well...


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## EnvEngineer (Nov 23, 2009)

"I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money"

One of my younger brothers made a statement like this in front of my wife, he is recovering, he stammers a little and will not be in the same room alone with her but he will be fine.

You do not want to live the first 10 years of my married life where I am working full time and going to school full time to get a BS and then a Masters, how we stayed together was a miracle but we made it and now work our asses off to put our kids through school so they have an easier life.


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## rppearso (Nov 23, 2009)

EnvEngineer said:


> "I guess I get a bit jealous of thoes individuals that started there carrers in the gravey train days (early 70's) and have since paid off there house and a lake house so they are basicly working for beer money"
> One of my younger brothers made a statement like this in front of my wife, he is recovering, he stammers a little and will not be in the same room alone with her but he will be fine.
> 
> You do not want to live the first 10 years of my married life where I am working full time and going to school full time to get a BS and then a Masters, how we stayed together was a miracle but we made it and now work our asses off to put our kids through school so they have an easier life.


Im not saying thoes people in the 70's did not work for it but at least the high paying work was there and all the over time you wanted to work (the key thing is the wages were there where as engineering wages are slipping), so all you had to do was be willing and you could bank roll it in. Such is life I guess, im not sure I understand the story about your brother, but if you physically assulted him I have wrote people off in my life for much less so if he still has anything to do with you you are indeed fortunate. Some people dont even have the opprotunity to work there asses off because the work is not there so he has a point just as I do. I have a plan I would not say I have it all figured out and engineer is not just a title its alot of hard work, so if hard work and reputation dont buy respect then respect really has no meaning, engineering titles are not just assigned you have to work for it. Also its impossible to work full time and go to school full time unless your work is extremely flexable because alot of classes are in the middle of the day and you would be virtually ineffective at your day job, unless you are just talking about a serving job or something after school, I am looking into getting a second electrical engineering degree while working a full time professional job and looking at the scheduling im going to be able to take 2 classes at a time at best.

As far as the military I have a hard time imagining a doc being treated like an E-1 basic trainee, I guarentee that statement is false, even if you are an E-8 there rank says that you are not going to raise your voice to them or treat them with disrespect, you may talk behind there backs but thats the extent of it. If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it. If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy, I am guessing the reason is they get alot of there engineering work from contractors and dont need uniformed engineers they just contract out lockheed or boing etc.

Anyways I feel the discussion has digressed and it is what it is, you just have to hope you can stay employed and pay off your debts without going into bankrupcy if you do get laid off.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 23, 2009)

rppearso said:


> As far as the military I have a hard time imagining a doc being treated like an E-1 basic trainee, I guarentee that statement is false, even if you are an E-8 there rank says that you are not going to raise your voice to them or treat them with disrespect, you may talk behind there backs but thats the extent of it. If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it. If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy, I am guessing the reason is they get alot of there engineering work from contractors and dont need uniformed engineers they just contract out lockheed or boing etc.


I can't tell what you're talking about here! I wrote earlier that a newly commissioned Doc, Dent, or Jag is treated just like a Boot Ensign (that's a new O-1 in the Navy if you're trying to keep score). Only E-1s are treated like E-1s in just about any service.

"If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it." ... huh?

" If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy"... Yup! Direct Commissions are just what they do. But getting someone in and keeping them in are two different things. And just about *all* military jobs are training for future jobs, which means you can't replace the guys leaving with new guys.


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## rppearso (Nov 23, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I can't tell what you're talking about here! I wrote earlier that a newly commissioned Doc, Dent, or Jag is treated just like a Boot Ensign (that's a new O-1 in the Navy if you're trying to keep score). Only E-1s are treated like E-1s in just about any service.
> "If I were a doc and an O-4 or O-3 and an O-6 disrespected me just because the E-8 couldent then I may consider resigning my commission, thats just me I dont allow bad behavior to go without consequences if I can help it." ... huh?
> 
> " If the military were truely in need of engineers then they would direct commission them until then they are just as disposible as the next guy"... Yup! Direct Commissions are just what they do. But getting someone in and keeping them in are two different things. And just about *all* military jobs are training for future jobs, which means you can't replace the guys leaving with new guys.


I did not finish OCS in the army guard but I can guess an O-1 gets treated alot better than an E-1 and engineers have to go through the entire basic training and OCS path and that path did not work for me. Its really all about the respect and paycheck and how much the engineering degree buys you and with the military it did not seem like much, if your not in demand your not in demand thats life and you move on.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 24, 2009)

rppearso said:


> I did not finish OCS in the army guard but I can guess an O-1 gets treated alot better than an E-1 and engineers have to go through the entire basic training and OCS path and that path did not work for me. Its really all about the respect and paycheck and how much the engineering degree buys you and with the military it did not seem like much, if your not in demand your not in demand thats life and you move on.


Sure, O-1s get treated "better" than E-1s in terms of responsibility and compensation. Any service member in a military engineering field is going to be generally on par with others in their paygrade - no more and no less. But as I wrote earlier, don't think Docs and Lawyers are any different.

I think I'm starting to understand you now... you thought a BS in some engineering field was going to get you automatic respect and a paycheck. I don't think engineering is much different than any other BS. Even a PE won't get you too much more respect and an increased paycheck (though, to be far, it's certainly a differentiator and can help in both those areas). The tried and true way of getting respect and lots of money is to prove your ability and worth to an organization that values them.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 24, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I think I'm starting to understand you now... you thought a BS in some engineering field was going to get you automatic respect and a paycheck. I don't think engineering is much different than any other BS. Even a PE won't get you too much more respect and an increased paycheck (though, to be far, it's certainly a differentiator and can help in both those areas). The tried and true way of getting respect and lots of money is to prove your ability and worth to an organization that values them.


+1

I find myself at least once a month needing to explain to others what a PE is. I say I'm an engineer, and their automatic response is, "You must be good at math." Yeah, there's a TON of respect there... 

PS: I also went to Mines (Graduated May 2003). As much as you want to think it's a private school, it's not. They are trying to become private, but they are far from being able to run without state assistance. Having a degree from there helps with earning a little more respect, but it's basically limited to those who actually know about the school.


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## picusld (Nov 24, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Also its impossible to work full time and go to school full time unless your work is extremely flexable because alot of classes are in the middle of the day and you would be virtually ineffective at your day job, unless you are just talking about a serving job or something after school, I am looking into getting a second electrical engineering degree while working a full time professional job and looking at the scheduling im going to be able to take 2 classes at a time at best.


I did just that. For one year I worked in a mental crisis unit caring for individuals with mental dissabilites working 11pm to 7am and went to school full time during the day. The second year 9-11 happened and was activated through the guard to perform homeland defense working 9pm to 5am loading missles on the jets and going to school during the day and sleeping when I could.

My second two years of school I had enough money that I did not need to work and only needed to take out minor loans (compared to a 140K) in order to get by.

Although this schedule is not sustainable, it is possible. It just depends on what you are willing to sacrifice in the near term in order to succeed in the long term. But anything is possible...


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## MechGuy (Nov 24, 2009)

rppearso said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> > I can't tell what you're talking about here! I wrote earlier that a newly commissioned Doc, Dent, or Jag is treated just like a Boot Ensign (that's a new O-1 in the Navy if you're trying to keep score). Only E-1s are treated like E-1s in just about any service.
> ...


Lets see....how can I say this without being rude... I'm not sure that I can LOL. I'll leave it at this, and I think IlPadrino and others have already said it. Respect is earned, not given simply because of your degree, rank, or social status. The only way you'll ever learn this is through time and experience. Good luck.


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## FLBuff PE (Nov 24, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> ...PS: I also went to Mines (Graduated May 2003). As much as you want to think it's a private school, it's not. They are trying to become private, but they are far from being able to run without state assistance. Having a degree from there helps with earning a little more respect, but it's basically limited to those who actually know about the school.


Great school!

-University of Colorado-Boulder grad, 2001


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## rppearso (Nov 24, 2009)

picusld said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > Also its impossible to work full time and go to school full time unless your work is extremely flexable because alot of classes are in the middle of the day and you would be virtually ineffective at your day job, unless you are just talking about a serving job or something after school, I am looking into getting a second electrical engineering degree while working a full time professional job and looking at the scheduling im going to be able to take 2 classes at a time at best.
> ...


Its possible if the right set of circumstances line up, otherwise you are going to have to take loans. I am building my time and experience its just not really all its cracked up to be is all, such is life.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 24, 2009)

rppearso,

you don't have to wait for a "perfect series of events" to occur to get what you want. If you really want it, you will find a way. I worked 40hrs/week while going to school full time (see above, I went to the same school as you). Yes I needed a flexible job to pull it off (and it is very difficult if you want to work a 9-5 while in school), but if you really want to do it, it will happen.


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## Kephart P.E. (Nov 24, 2009)

MGX said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.
> ...


Great post, my Dad and Uncle ran a Auto Repair shop for years. My Dad sold his half and is semi-retired now, but if you think Engineering is tough the mechanic business would eat you alive. Trust me for the amount of hours worked there is no way you would make more $. I worked for my Dad thru High School and in college. Compared to that the US Army and Engineering is cake.

Now you will almost always have work, as a mechanic, but you better enjoy the constantly bashed knuckles, being too hot or cold, and getting covered in grease, dirt, and oil. But hey some people want to do little else than work on cars and I thank them for it.


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## Kephart P.E. (Nov 24, 2009)

Without being too rude, ah screw it.

You paid $140 k to go to a state school and get a Engineering Degree. What did you think they would teach you how to print money?

You dropped out/quit Army Guard, cause they didn't treat you with enough "respect"? Wow, I think we have a little problems with expectations. What part of the Army did you think you were joining?

Geez watch a movie or something, some of the stereotypes are true. THEY (The Military) TREAT YOU LIKE DIRT UNTIL YOU PROVE YOU ARE WORTH SOMETHING. You do this chiefly by not quitting.

Let me guess you are part of the infamous Gen Y.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 24, 2009)

D. Kephart said:


> Without being too rude, ah screw it.
> You paid $140 k to go to a state school and get a Engineering Degree. What did you think they would teach you how to print money?
> 
> You dropped out/quit Army Guard, cause they didn't treat you with enough "respect"? Wow, I think we have a little problems with expectations. What part of the Army did you think you were joining? Geez what a movie or something, some of the stereotypes are true. THEY (The Military) TREAT YOU LIKE DIRT UNTIL YOU PROVE YOU ARE WORTH SOMETHING. You do this chiefly by not quitting.
> ...


+1

I like this line from that article:



> they tend to be impatient when told they have to wait and pay their dues.


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## rppearso (Nov 24, 2009)

D. Kephart said:


> Without being too rude, ah screw it.
> You paid $140 k to go to a state school and get a Engineering Degree. What did you think they would teach you how to print money?
> 
> You dropped out/quit Army Guard, cause they didn't treat you with enough "respect"? Wow, I think we have a little problems with expectations. What part of the Army did you think you were joining?
> ...


Im 28 so im not sure what gen'er that makes me as I dont really keep up with that. I now have the understanding that you are telling me but it was a pretty rude awakening, I also agree I spent way to much on school so now I am buckeling down and in super cheap skate mode so I can pay back that debt before next christmas, I just spend my 8.40$ in stamps for some christmas cards I found in my desk so that will be christmas so I can keep making 1000$ payments. Also since my company just went to a policy where I have to invest in my 401K for 8 months before I know if I am getting matching I am going to stop contributions right after my last pay check in dec and can add that amount to my student loan pay off and can then start making balloon payments towards my condo. So it is do able I just learned a bit late I guess, once everything is paid off it will be nice. The military was not for me in other ways also, when I joined they were not yet deploying guard overseas in mass numbers and after I was in they started that up and I did not sign up for that ... litterally otherwise I would have joined active duty, the whole thing was a hosed up deal, they did not even deploy guard in vietnam in mass numbers anyways thats another discussion for another forum lol. As far as engineers being respected they are not really and that is what it is, I just have to pinch every penny and be in a better financial position so im not so paranoid about it lol.


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## MechGuy (Nov 24, 2009)

rppearso said:


> D. Kephart said:
> 
> 
> > Without being too rude, ah screw it.
> ...


LOL you still just don't get it. OK I'm done on this one... I'm going to try an easier task, like reasoning with my 5 year old.


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## RM-270 (Nov 24, 2009)

yeah, working and school can be a total pain. I put myself through Grad School (while working full-time) and actually had some jerks I've interviewed with ask why it took so long. (I don't know why some of these companies let idiots represent them.)

we need to address college costs. As much as Mark Sanford is getting beaten up in the press these days......I like the guy because he has had the guts to stand up to local [public] colleges about their raising tuition. We need that nation-wide. We need to say to public colleges: either you keep your costs reasonable or you aren't going to get state dollars anymore. Either that, or we need to just pay everybody's ride from now on. The other thing about universities these days that kind of bothers me is it seems that the admission requirements are getting ridiculous. Depriving more marginal students of an higher education serves no purpose. The other day I was looking at some statistics of the average entering SAT scores (and GPAs) of a [public] college I went to and I just had to shake my head (considering they turn down a lot of in-state students). I had to wonder: are they in the business of educating this state's kids or I am a Gigantic DoucheBag


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 24, 2009)

MechGuy said:


> LOL you still just don't get it. OK I'm done on this one... I'm going to try an easier task, like reasoning with my 5 year old.


If you need practice, you can borrow my 2.5 and my 4 yr old too...


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## rppearso (Nov 24, 2009)

MechGuy said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > D. Kephart said:
> ...


Im not sure I understand as I admitted my shortcommings, could you please give me a more rational answer as we are all engineers here after all.


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## MechGuy (Nov 24, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> MechGuy said:
> 
> 
> > LOL you still just don't get it. OK I'm done on this one... I'm going to try an easier task, like reasoning with my 5 year old.
> ...


LOL no thats quite alright, I have a 2 year old and 3 month old that can also help me out with my headache


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## wilheldp_PE (Nov 24, 2009)

RM-270 said:


> stand up to local [public] colleges about their raising tuition. We need that nation-wide. We need to say to public colleges: either you keep your costs reasonable or you aren't going to get state dollars anymore. Either that, or we need to just pay everybody's ride from now on.


And where, exactly, is this money going to come from? It costs X dollars to run a university, and the state provides Y dollars. If X-Y is a positive number, then students pay tuition. If Y decreases, which it does every year in almost every state, then tuition has to increase. And your free ride idea just shifts the costs. Either you pay the tuition when you are going to school, or you don't pay tuition, get a degree, get a job, and pay higher taxes so that other people can go to school. That entitlement mentality is exactly why taxes are as high as they are, government has so much power, and our national debt is as high as it is.


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## rppearso (Nov 24, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> RM-270 said:
> 
> 
> > stand up to local [public] colleges about their raising tuition. We need that nation-wide. We need to say to public colleges: either you keep your costs reasonable or you aren't going to get state dollars anymore. Either that, or we need to just pay everybody's ride from now on.
> ...


This is correct to an extent, what the gov should be doing is investigating the universitys with a fine tooth comb because I can almost gaurentee there is pilfering in there that is contributing to costs, when pilfering goes unchecked it turns into full blown rip offs, the education of our future should not rest with free market, its one thing to charge what the market will bear for a farrari but not education or other basic nessicities of life hense why we have gov regulated utilities so power companies can not make money hand over fist for something that is not a luxury in modern society, I also think local phone service should be utilitized and when I get some time am thinking about proposing a ballot meaure to make cable and phone companies a utility and fix there profits and wages of thoes working for them. If the gov or some other 3rd party came in and mandated that they run lean and mean and cut out the fluff you would curve alot of these problems. The same thing is true with the medical system, the insurance companies are basicly mobsters and have been allowed to operate almost completely unchecked and have created a nightmare for doctors offices and tons of levels of bearuocracy that drive prices up but because they have lobby power the real problems will never be resolved until everything is totally ruined, people will have to make the choise to just die because they cant afford insurance and rent and there car and enjoy life a bit, if people have no hope in this life they will have a little fun in the present and if they die they die. We are all just a lay off away from being completely ruined unless you are a gravy trainer or have a gravy train enheritance. Im going on 30 years old and still dealing with student loans and am one lay off away from being totally hosed because even though I have been putting in tons of resumes and applications I have got no offers so if I had got laid off last may I would have been totally screwed because no one else was hiring, thats life and the product of a corrupt society, its not about being willing to go to work its that the work is not there.

Maybe gov control of everything is the best way to go because then at least you can live where as with corporations you will be left on the streets to starve or freeze to death, I used to never think that way but seeing what greed and corruption of corporations has done does not really give me much confidence, its like corporations are so greedy they will eventually exploit every loop hole they can find and then you have to write a new law but thats almost impossible as an individual and eventually they get so sneaky at it you have to shut the whole thing down and have complete gov control, if we all cant play nice in the sand box and the bigger bullies are always trying to steal someones lunch money then the adults are going to get involved.


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## RM-270 (Nov 24, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> RM-270 said:
> 
> 
> > stand up to local [public] colleges about their raising tuition. We need that nation-wide. We need to say to public colleges: either you keep your costs reasonable or you aren't going to get state dollars anymore. Either that, or we need to just pay everybody's ride from now on.
> ...


_Where will the money come from?_ Are you kidding me?! Try cutting out the multi-million dollar stadium renovations and the research facilities for starters. The college I went to NEVER seems to have trouble finding the millions for that. And I tell you something else pal: I don't have any sense of entitlement; my degrees are bought and paid for (and I got them without incurring any debt, although it took a million years). So I don't suggest this for *my* benefit at all. And there are other ways to fund education besides taxes (a lottery being one of them).


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## wilheldp_PE (Nov 24, 2009)

RM-270 said:


> _Where will the money come from?_ Are you kidding me?! Try cutting out the multi-million dollar stadium renovations and the research facilities for starters. The college I went to NEVER seems to have trouble finding the millions for that. And I tell you something else pal: I don't have any sense of entitlement; my degrees are bought and paid for (and I got them without incurring any debt, although it took a million years). So I don't suggest this for *my* benefit at all. And there are other ways to fund education besides taxes (a lottery being one of them).


Nope, not kidding you. At most large (D-1A, BCS, etc) public universities, the athletics department is the only department that has a negative budget from the university. They bring in not only enough money to pay for the stadium and outrageous coach salaries, but they also contribute money to the general fund of the university. Sure, without those large expenditures on items unnecessary to education they could put more money into the education portion of the university, but the argument could be made that without spending the money on facilities and coaches, they wouldn't produce as much money in the first place.

As for rppearso's long, rambling answer...if you want to see how much an unsubsidized education should cost, just look at private schools. When the students have to pay for ALL costs of running the university (facilities, faculty, staff, supplies, overhead, etc.), tuition is FAR higher than at public, taxpayer-subsidized universities. And private institutions have an incentive to be lean/profitable in their operations. Sure, they can raise tuition to cover extra expenses, but once they raise the price too high, demand will drop. Despite your assertion, even education services follow supply and demand curves. As is the norm with government, their subsidy does nothing but artificially shift the curves.


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## RM-270 (Nov 24, 2009)

> Nope, not kidding you. At most large (D-1A, BCS, etc) public universities, the athletics department is the only department that has a negative budget from the university. They bring in not only enough money to pay for the stadium and outrageous coach salaries, but they also contribute money to the general fund of the university. Sure, without those large expenditures on items unnecessary to education they could put more money into the education portion of the university, but the argument could be made that without spending the money on facilities and coaches, they wouldn't produce as much money in the first place.


oh what a bunch of crap. The last renovation of the stadium where I went to school was completely unnecessary (even some alums said so). not to mention the new walkways and water fountains they put in all over the place. Anyone who looks at these institutions and can't find waste is fooling themselves (as one that is so concerned about taxes being hiked, I would assume you would be first on this band wagon).

This _be true to your school_ mentality that gets people to look the other way when they pull the garbage they do is ridiculous.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> RM-270 said:
> 
> 
> > _Where will the money come from?_ Are you kidding me?! Try cutting out the multi-million dollar stadium renovations and the research facilities for starters. The college I went to NEVER seems to have trouble finding the millions for that. And I tell you something else pal: I don't have any sense of entitlement; my degrees are bought and paid for (and I got them without incurring any debt, although it took a million years). So I don't suggest this for *my* benefit at all. And there are other ways to fund education besides taxes (a lottery being one of them).
> ...


Awesome so we will have a full blown cast system, only the kids of the gravy trainers (thoes who made there fortunes off the hard work of others in the past, or off of fatty high dollar projects) will be able to afford to finish school before they are 50 years old or without so much debt they will be in their 30's before paying it off or longer. Tax money pays for high school, maybe that should be privatized im sure there are people who thing that, I hate to break it to you but a bachelors degree is the new high school diploma, if you are not going to get a BS or highly skilled trade school you might as well not even graduate high school because your job options are fairly close to the same.

The supply/demand curves dont work when you have to many gravy trainers going to school on mommy and daddys dime, its a cast system, if someone benifited from a gravy train (sole source contract, davis bacon project, insider buisness deals, double over time at 80hrs a week, you name it) they should pay a dispropotionate amount of taxes so that others can go to school, it should not be spread around evenly, people who bank rolled off some unique circumstance or happen chance should be spreading the wealth not people who are barely paying for a place to live but work just as hard as you and have the same degrees as you but did not fall backwards into a cash cow. Thats just my opinion, I used to be pretty republican and then I realized that im not a millionare lol (I still think obama is an idiot but thats a discussion for another forum).


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## IlPadrino (Nov 25, 2009)

College education may be a public interest, but it can't be for everyone... otherwise we'd run out of people to be cashiers, landscapers, construction workers, etc., etc. So, frankly, I don't quite see the problem. Higher education is available to EVERYONE that wants it - but you can't wake up one day at age 18 and decide that despite doing nothing in High School, you want to start at a top-notch state or private school. Does anyone get rejected by a community college?


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## wilheldp_PE (Nov 25, 2009)

I'm not wAsting any more time arguing with reppearso or RM-270. They are equally incoherent and stubborn.


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## EM_PS (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Maybe gov control of everything is the best way to go because then at least you can live where as with corporations you will be left on the streets to starve or freeze to death, I used to never think that way but seeing what greed and corruption of corporations has done does not really give me much confidence, its like corporations are so greedy they will eventually exploit every loop hole they can find and then you have to write a new law but thats almost impossible as an individual and eventually they get so sneaky at it you have to shut the whole thing down and have complete gov control, if we all cant play nice in the sand box and the bigger bullies are always trying to steal someones lunch money then the adults are going to get involved.






rppearso said:


> Awesome so we will have a full blown cast system, only the kids of the gravy trainers (thoes who made there fortunes off the hard work of others in the past, or off of fatty high dollar projects) will be able to afford to finish school before they are 50 years old or without so much debt they will be in their 30's before paying it off or longer. Tax money pays for high school, maybe that should be privatized im sure there are people who thing that, I hate to break it to you but a bachelors degree is the new high school diploma, if you are not going to get a BS or highly skilled trade school you might as well not even graduate high school because your job options are fairly close to the same.
> The supply/demand curves dont work when you have to many gravy trainers going to school on mommy and daddys dime, its a cast system, if someone benifited from a gravy train (sole source contract, davis bacon project, insider buisness deals, double over time at 80hrs a week, you name it) they should pay a dispropotionate amount of taxes so that others can go to school, it should not be spread around evenly, people who bank rolled off some unique circumstance or happen chance should be spreading the wealth not people who are barely paying for a place to live but work just as hard as you and have the same degrees as you but did not fall backwards into a cash cow. Thats just my opinion, I used to be pretty republican and then I realized that im not a millionare lol (I still think obama is an idiot but thats a discussion for another forum).


Move to China, Pinko!


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## ElCid03 (Nov 25, 2009)

Even if they took 17% thats way better than 66% which is what im getting shafted with now, if this were splitting hairs over a few percent I would not have even posted this but I think alot people are geting royally ripped off and the entire field of engineering lacks alot of respect. Since one of you is in the military here, the military does not even recognize engineering degrees as professionals (ie get to skip basic and OCS and start off as a capt like doctors and JAG do, even if you have a PE, masters or PhD in engineering you still wont get a direct commission to capt like docs and JAG get. When I was in the gaurd for 2 years I was treated as any rank and file private and that did not sit well with me hence the 2 year part. The profession does not really command any respect anymore, it really is very sad.

I am an O-1, Ensign, in the Navy Reserve. I received a direct commission into the Civil Engineering Corps due to the fact that I have a BSCE. I am not required to go to OCS, just a two week fork and knife school. I am staff corps officer and will never be allowed to command an aircraft carrier, but the Seabee Battalions are way more fun anyway.

As for the rank and file part, the NCO's were doing you a tremendous favor as an Officer Cadet. The other soldiers got to see that their potential platoon leader had to go through the same process they did and got no special treatment. If makes you legit in the eyes of your troops, and then they know that if you ask them to go dig a ditch all day they will know that you can and are willing to do it right alongside them if necessary.


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## MechGuy (Nov 25, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I'm not wAsting any more time arguing with reppearso or RM-270. They are equally incoherent and stubborn.


+1!


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 25, 2009)

MechGuy said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not wAsting any more time arguing with reppearso or RM-270. They are equally incoherent and stubborn.
> ...


+1

I'm just cranky he's giving alumni from School of Mines a bad reputation.


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## Dark Knight (Nov 25, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> MechGuy said:
> 
> 
> > wilheldp_PE said:
> ...


(Great av Dex. lusone: )

Now go back to the discussion.........


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

Dont let it get your blood pressure up its just a differing of phylosophy. I think that the same admissions standards should hold you should still have to have high GPA, test scores and all that but if you are accepted financial issues should not be a barrier, just because Joe and Jenny have the same GPA and test scores but Joe is poor does not mean Joe should have to be paying on student loans for 20 years while Jenny is partying it up because her gravy train parents financed her education. Also china does not have first rate education and quality of life so that is a poor comparison. I dont know how im giving CSM a bad reputation, my reputation as an engineer is great and I will hopefully soon have my PE (still waiting 8 more weeks for results) so I would say im not doing half bad upholding the reputation, political positions has nothing to do with engineering reputation.

As far as the comment from the seabee, I suppose you are correct I guess it was just not my cup of tea, I did not exactly know what to expect with basic and in some ways it was probably good for me but its one of thoes things you only get to surprise someone with once not twice, the army would really do well to either get rid of one or the other for officer candidates, I believe the AF only does one so that may have been better for me you go get hazed and cussed at ONCE then you are pinned and done, getting someone to go through basic training twice is a tough sell.


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## wilheldp_PE (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> gravy train


"I do not think he knows what that word means."


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## Dark Knight (Nov 25, 2009)

...and we are going to overtime

opcorn: opcorn: opcorn:


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > gravy train
> ...


If you dont agree you dont agree thats why we have elections and vote. Whether I know what the actual term means or not is irrelvant I think I framed the context pretty well, it would be nice to see some well framed counter points but if not whatever its not the end of the world.


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## wilheldp_PE (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > rppearso said:
> ...


I'm on my iPhone on my T'giving road trip, so I'm not going to type a long winded response to your rambling. I MIGHT cook one up later, but probably not since I don't really care if I convince you of anything.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > wilheldp_PE said:
> ...


Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.


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## picusld (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.


This guy can't be for real.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

picusld said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.
> ...


Seriously can you post something useful, I love this site and when i was studying for my PE it was great, very analytical and now I am getting the same posts that I do on other forums, as engineers and educated people I think we can do better.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> I think that the same admissions standards should hold you should still have to have high GPA, test scores and all that but if you are accepted financial issues should not be a barrier, just because Joe and Jenny have the same GPA and test scores but Joe is poor does not mean Joe should have to be paying on student loans for 20 years while Jenny is partying it up because her gravy train parents financed her education.


I think he's trolling... I have never met anyone in real life who believes welfare in the U.S. should extend to college education.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > I think that the same admissions standards should hold you should still have to have high GPA, test scores and all that but if you are accepted financial issues should not be a barrier, just because Joe and Jenny have the same GPA and test scores but Joe is poor does not mean Joe should have to be paying on student loans for 20 years while Jenny is partying it up because her gravy train parents financed her education.
> ...


I am not trolling, you can search my profile and see that I just took the chemical PE and am very much so a lagitimate engineer with a lagitimate reason to be here, I started this thread out of frustration for the currant job market and lack of wage increases and it got morphed into what it is now. As I said in another post I am not a millionare or my parents are not millionares so it would have been REALLY nice to have a gov financed education and all this money I am dumping into student loans could be dumping it into my condo so I have a roof over my head when im laid off, you can call it what ever you want but I call it not wanting to die.


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## MGX (Nov 25, 2009)

I think you'll survive a layoff. We have unemployment in this country.


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## EM_PS (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> it would be nice to see some well framed counter points but if not whatever its not the end of the world.


as you're a graduate of the School of Mimes, i don't see why you're bellyaching about respect &amp; pay


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

MGX said:


> I think you'll survive a layoff. We have unemployment in this country.


The spooky thing is I was almost laid off in may and have been applying for jobs like crazy and have not even got an interview let alone a job offer and that was 7 months ago, thats a long time to be unemployed and between my mortgage and student loans unemployment benifits would not cut it I would have to have significantly more debt paid down to live on unemployment. And that is 7 months and running, I am still looking for more stable employment and have not found it, thats a real problem. I think 1 year is the max you can collect unemployment so then I would be destitute, if people were only unemployed for a few months that would be one thing but thats not the case.


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## RM-270 (Nov 25, 2009)

> I'm not wAsting any more time arguing with reppearso or RM-270. They are equally incoherent and stubborn.


Fine with me. But I've never gotten the sheep mentality of this profession: Never question your alma mater; never question some of these organizations that profess to represent us, etc., etc.. I mean, reminds me of that Nine Inch Nails song [Head Like a Hole]: '_Bow down before the one you serve.....you're going to get what you deserve....'_

And I've also not gotten how self-centered some people can be in this business. I remember I had a colleague ask me once (in light of a letter I had published denouncing raising the bar [for licensure]): "_Why do you oppose it? You have a masters and you are registered.....it would cut back on the number of people you have to compete against [for jobs]._" I mean, WTF? That's like someone [who has 2 kidneys] saying everyone who has just one kidney should be executed to control insurance costs. There is rational self-interest and then there is overwhelming greed. One is healthy the other isn't.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 25, 2009)

You want a response?

Here's your answer:



rppearso said:


> Im not sure I understand...


Ok seriously...

There were 2 types of people who attended CSM:

1) The ones who went there because they were the Validictorians, the ones who had the educational "silver spoon." They thought that because they were smart, they would be able to earn whatever they wanted without putting forth much effort. Luckily most of them were weeded out within the first couple of years by the school itself, but I guess a few still got out...

2) The ones who thought they could be Engineers. These were the logical, hard-working, understanding people who enjoyed looking at problems because they enjoyed figuring out a solution, they enjoyed helping society.

You my friend seem to belong in category #1. and you have finally reached that point when you realize your assumption of earning whatever you want without much effort isn't going to work out.

So I want you to think over the following points. Please think long, hard and RATIONALLY (yes, like an engineer) before responding:

1) You're an engineer. YOU should be more rational than this.

2) You cannot compare yourself to auto mechanics, or 20+ year engineers. They have different jobs, they walked down a different path than you did, they earned where they are today.

3) The military is an entirely different beast. If you want respect there, you can't just flash a degree in their face and expect them to put you in command of anything. If you wanted the "easy" way into the military while being an engineer, you should have attempted ROTC. I graduated with several guys (and girls) who went this route. One eventually became a fighter pilot.

*Disclaimer* By no means do I assume ROTC was or would be easy. I saw how many hours and how much dedication those who enrolled in that program had invested in it, and I applaud them.

Respect is not about how much money you make, what degree you have or where you got it. You want repect? EARN IT. Put in your time. Work your way into this position.

Honestly, in my opinion, it sounds like you belong in the upscale suburbs. You've got a nasty case of "better than the Jones'." If someone has it, you want the better version of it. Not only that, but you want to be able to flaunt it in front of that person. Additionally, you think your degree (or school, or how much you spent on school) ENTITLES you to be able to do it. THIS is why people here are having an issue with your arguments.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> You want a response?
> Here's your answer:
> 
> 
> ...


I see your point, I was actually in catagory 2 but think I may have came across wrong. I dont want better than the joneses I want a chance to be able to live....literally I need the income to get myself out of basic debt because my up bringing was poor and its very frustrating to have that feeling that the rug is going to be pulled out from under you (or rocks cave in on you right as you can start seeing the light) before you have a chance to make it out of the cave and make it into the middle class. The lack of interviews and job offers between now and the time I was almost laid off is a very spooky reminder that I was very close to freezing to death on the streets (one to 2 months unemployment is one thing but 7 months is completely different thing). I would think that an engineering degree would buy you a little extra edge even in a tough economy but it really doesnt and that is a disappointment.

Yea the military thing was not my bag, I was in AF ROTC for 2 years at mines and got out because the contracts were so vauge, I also wanted to be a fighter pilot but struggled with height weight and running, I could pass them but not at a fighter pilot competitive level, I went to a recruiter after graduation for OTS and took my AFOQT for the second and final time, studied my butt off and was offered a navigator spot but did not want the 12 year contract and navigators rarely get a chance at the pilot slot and are not gaurnteed a fighter slot so I choose the civilian route and used my engineering degree. I then tried joining the guard to fly rotary but that did not work out for me either. My last chance to fly is to get myself in a financial situation where I can buy a red bull air race plane (extra 300) but with having the rug pulled out from under me while im still making balloon payments on basic debts that goal is a long way off if I can even survive to see it. I have always been a christian but investing in the next life has been on my mind alot more, I am almost 30 and cant even get a grip on my student loan debts how the heck am I going to buy a quarter million dollar plane and hanger (and thats for a used one) plus all the ansilary costs that go with it, this life is fading. All raises have been cut and there are no new job offers for more money.

Maybe im being overly dramatic but unless things dramaticly turn around and there are 6 figure salary engineering slots that come open and I start getting thoes job offers there is not much to look forward to, you can only be so old and maintain a class 3 medical, after about the age of 40 you are lucky to keep that class 3 medical, I guess I could always go to a more remote area and fly without a medical.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2009)

Perhaps we can rephrase this thread to ... are engineers EXPANDABLE.

I would say yes. Especially at Thanksgiving when there is more than enough food to go around!



rppearso said:


> Like I said its not the end of the world, and I dont know why you think that as seabee shifted my thinking on the military aspect, to an extent, as seen from my last response. No one likes to be yelled and and swore at and sleep deprived so I think the army is pushing it by having 2 basic training for officers, one basic training seabees argument works but not for 2 basic trainings which is what OCS is. I mean the least they can do is combine them into one 12 week period or something.


Hmmm ....

As a former ENLISTED seabee, I know all about boot camp and working construction. I have no qualms with my time in the service - it made me appreciate the difference between working on a construction site as the craft and working as an engineer. I chose the latter through hard work and sacrifice. Sometimes it takes time to get where you would like .. I am 15 yrs down the road and job jumping a few times and finally have a license to where I can ply myself for a better wage.

Keep your eye on the prize ...

P.S. - No smack talking seabees!

JR


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

jregieng said:


> Perhaps we can rephrase this thread to ... are engineers EXPANDABLE.
> I would say yes. Especially at Thanksgiving when there is more than enough food to go around!
> 
> 
> ...


I am not trying to come off wrong and the guy with seabee in his avatar made good points, for me getting swore at and sleep deprived was not my bag, im all about working hard but hazing does not work for me thats just a personal choise. I agree you just have to keep plugging along but I figured with 5 years of good solid engineering design experience I would not still be in the same situation as I was when I first graduated when it comes to getting job offers, I feel like im having to go through the same gyrations as someone with 0 years of experence, with all the resumes I put in I would think I would be getting a least a few interviews and possibly a few job offers so I could pick and choose but instead I still feel like I just graduated or an indentured servant lol. Maybe I really need the PE on the resume and 7-10 years before I can start getting call backs and offers without having to put out 30 resumes for one call back (if im lucky, which I have not been thus far).


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## Flyer_PE (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> [....you can only be so old and maintain a class 3 medical, after about the age of 40 you are lucky to keep that class 3 medical, I guess I could always go to a more remote area and fly without a medical.


Maintaining a class 3 medical isn't a problem after age 40. The FAA examiner that I did both my private and instrument checkrides with was in his 80's at the time (class 2 medical required). Hell, there are a lot of pilots flying biz jets after being retired from the airlines due to the age-60 rule.

The type club for my airplane has a member who is also an AME. His basic claim is that if you can walk up the hill to his office, he can get you a medical.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

Flyer_PE said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > [....you can only be so old and maintain a class 3 medical, after about the age of 40 you are lucky to keep that class 3 medical, I guess I could always go to a more remote area and fly without a medical.
> ...


I may be asking you for that doctors recommendation, I was reading that if you have had any one of a long list of medical conditions EVER you will most likely be denied a medical (heart attack, etc). Maybe thoes were just scare tactics but im not sure what anyone would have to gain by creating a scare tactic for that. I always thought that if I thought I were having a heart attack I would not go in because getting a class 3 medical again would be virtually impossible without all sorts of gyration and hoop jumping, but if its not recorded who would know.


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## benbo (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso -

Are you only looking for work in Alaska, or are you willing to move? I'm thinking you might have better luck if you look nationwide, possibly Texas or Louisiana mught be a better fit for your degree.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

benbo said:


> rppearso -Are you only looking for work in Alaska, or are you willing to move? I'm thinking you might have better luck if you look nationwide, possibly Texas or Louisiana mught be a better fit for your degree.


I have been looking pretty much in alaska but have started looking state side, my entire family is up here so it would be hard to leave but now that I know the situation if I were to actually become unemployed I would have to start looking state side right away.


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## Guest (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> I am not trying to come off wrong and the guy with seabee in his avatar made good points


IlPadrino always has good points. Except for the one about software engineers. He's wrong on that one! 



rppearso said:


> for me getting swore at and sleep deprived was not my bag, im all about working hard but hazing does not work for me thats just a personal choise.


You are correct - military service is not for everyone. I entered as enlisted (E1) even though I had two scholarships to help out with college because I was raised to believe that military service came above personal benefit. My dad was a first seargent in the air force and very tough - going thru boot camp and serving my time in the service was 'par for the course' in my eyes since that was how I was raised. On the other hand, I didn't serve my full duty time because of a medical condition - I received a medical discharge after spending much of my time on light duty. Again, the circumstances behind what happened were messed up and my medical care could have been better and even prevented some of the issues I had (and still have today) but I have no regrets. We are only afforded one life and you have to make the best of it. 



rppearso said:


> I agree you just have to keep plugging along but I figured with 5 years of good solid engineering design experience I would not still be in the same situation as I was when I first graduated when it comes to getting job offers, I feel like im having to go through the same gyrations as someone with 0 years of experence, with all the resumes I put in I would think I would be getting a least a few interviews and possibly a few job offers so I could pick and choose but instead I still feel like I just graduated or an indentured servant lol. Maybe I really need the PE on the resume and 7-10 years before I can start getting call backs and offers without having to put out 30 resumes for one call back (if im lucky, which I have not been thus far).


Based on what you say here, it seems that one should offer 'respect' based on a license or degree. I can promise you that is simply NOT going to happen. People 'respect' you when you have something to offer. Period.

I worked as a regulator for a state agency for ten years and obtained my PE license during that period. I can promise you that 10 yrs worth of experience and a PE license did NOTHING to earn respect from potential employers. Sure I would get phone calls, interviews, and empty promises but when the time came to actually getting that new job it took me nearly three years of searching. I finally matched with my job in the power/utility industry - the job that I have now. These people hired me and offered 'respect' because I could navigate the problems they presented AND offer solutions.

I think you need to be careful about how you perceive respect from potential employers. In fact, I would take it a step further to say that YOU must be able to market yourself in a way that shows off what you have to offer. You cannot sit back and think that any amount of education or licensure will entitle you to this respect.

I understand your disappointment - I have been there. I offer this advice to you - take it as you will. As a person of free will, you can choose to make a better life for yourself and continue to strive forward or you can sit back and believe you are held vicitim to any set of limitations that you perceive. You, and you alone have the free will and choice to fail or succeed. Your education and license are only tools on that path.

In closing, and not to :deadhorse: , I would like to offer two quotes my dad used to say to me:

1. Life isn't fair.

2. Work isn't for you to like - it is for you to do.

My dad was right on those two points .... but what he failed to comprehend was that my attitude has made all the difference as to how I rise to meet the challenge.

I wish you luck with your challenges! 

JR


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## wilheldp_PE (Nov 25, 2009)

rppearso said:


> now I am getting the same posts that I do on other forums, as engineers and educated people I think we can do better.


If you get the same kind of posts on every forum you join, maybe you should realize that it's you...not us.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

jregieng said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > I am not trying to come off wrong and the guy with seabee in his avatar made good points
> ...


Im not saying the experience and licence entitles anyone to anything but there is a certian level of items one expects to see on a resume when hiring and if thoes are not there you will not even get a call back. Fortunatly I like my work I just dont like my job security. I guess if you freeze to death you freeze to death and that is your time to go when you can not offer a service that anyone wants. If that happens I will accept that is Gods will for me and in the mean time I will keep pushing to pay off my debt and maybe get a plane someday if things are cut short thats life and im sure things will be much better in the next life where life will be fair, but being paranoid about being laid off and not being able to find a job is not really useful so I guess I just needed to vent.


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## rppearso (Nov 25, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > now I am getting the same posts that I do on other forums, as engineers and educated people I think we can do better.
> ...


The problem with other forums is I never got real meaningful feed back like I get here just rude nasty comments (on the other forums). So I knew there was an issue but could never get a straight answer.


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## EM_PS (Nov 26, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Im not saying the experience and licence entitles anyone to anything but there is a certian level of items one expects to see on a resume when hiring and if thoes are not there you will not even get a call back. Fortunatly I like my work I just dont like my job security. I guess if you freeze to death you freeze to death and that is your time to go when you can not offer a service that anyone wants. If that happens I will accept that is Gods will for me and in the mean time I will keep pushing to pay off my debt and maybe get a plane someday if things are cut short thats life and im sure things will be much better in the next life where life will be fair, but being paranoid about being laid off and not being able to find a job is not really useful so I guess I just needed to vent.


Dude if you could only hear how much of a douche you sound like. You're working, in your field no less! Nobody's job is overly secure &amp; here you are whining about respect, pay, why some people have had an easier ride than others, people who've had successful careers (gravy train i believe you call it), freezing to death, not being able to buy an airplane... :screwloose:

there are people who ARE unemployed w/ poor prospects in their field / State, have children to feed, elderly parents to assist, student loans to pay off, mortgages - I'm one btw. you need to F'n grow a pair! :smileyballs: Stop being such a [email protected] bitch whining about your lot in life when it seems pretty good from where I sit. Sorry to be blunt &amp; rude, just somebody needed to say it.

On a more civil note, Happy Thanksgiving. B)


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## MGX (Nov 26, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Im not saying the experience and licence entitles anyone to anything but there is a certian level of items one expects to see on a resume when hiring and if thoes are not there you will not even get a call back. Fortunatly I like my work I just dont like my job security. I guess if you freeze to death you freeze to death and that is your time to go when you can not offer a service that anyone wants. If that happens I will accept that is Gods will for me and in the mean time I will keep pushing to pay off my debt and maybe get a plane someday if things are cut short thats life and im sure things will be much better in the next life where life will be fair, but being paranoid about being laid off and not being able to find a job is not really useful so I guess I just needed to vent.


There are only a few comments I can make, you seem very dense but maybe these will get through to you.

1. No job security exists, it is a myth. Your only security is your ability to leave the house and score work. If it isn't in your field, then boo hoo. You can find something else to stop the gap until something you like is available. I think we've all worked jobs we didn't like for a short period of time, this is nothing unique to your situation.

2. I seriously doubt its God's will for you to freeze to death. Believers use this excuse as a way to circumvent their responsibilities, I've seen it in my church and I've been tempted to use it also. Get off your duff and get busy. Forget about the plane or whatever pie in the sky dreams you have and focus on short term goals first. We all have pie in the sky dreams but we need to eat first.

3. Life isn't fair, the trick is to make it unfair in your favor (my granddad's quote)


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## Flyer_PE (Nov 26, 2009)

MGX said:


> 1. No job security exists, it is a myth. Your only security is your ability to leave the house and score work. If it isn't in your field, then boo hoo. You can find something else to stop the gap until something you like is available. I think we've all worked jobs we didn't like for a short period of time, this is nothing unique to your situation.


My dad had a slightly different way of expressing it. "Your only job security lies in what you can do for your _next_ employer."



MGX said:


> 3. Life isn't fair, the trick is to make it unfair in your favor (my granddad's quote)


I really like that one.


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## rppearso (Nov 26, 2009)

MGX said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > Im not saying the experience and licence entitles anyone to anything but there is a certian level of items one expects to see on a resume when hiring and if thoes are not there you will not even get a call back. Fortunatly I like my work I just dont like my job security. I guess if you freeze to death you freeze to death and that is your time to go when you can not offer a service that anyone wants. If that happens I will accept that is Gods will for me and in the mean time I will keep pushing to pay off my debt and maybe get a plane someday if things are cut short thats life and im sure things will be much better in the next life where life will be fair, but being paranoid about being laid off and not being able to find a job is not really useful so I guess I just needed to vent.
> ...


I am probably being a downer and im sorry for that. What do you mean believers use this excuse as a way to circumvent responsibilities, its really simple either you have income and can pay your mortgage or you cant and if the unemployment goes on for to long there are consequences to that thats all I was saying, if you cant get an offer soon enough then things denigrate thats just life I have not had to deal with that yet so I doubt thats is Gods will either, but it does not take very long for things to denigrate to that point.


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## Guest (Nov 26, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> there are people who ARE unemployed w/ poor prospects in their field / State, have children to feed, elderly parents to assist, student loans to pay off, mortgages - I'm one btw. you need to F'n grow a pair! :smileyballs: Stop being such a [email protected] bitch whining about your lot in life when it seems pretty good from where I sit. Sorry to be blunt &amp; rude, just somebody needed to say it.


I would add that there are a number of people also feeling the effects of getting taken to the cleaner due to a divorce - yours truly being one of those people. If you are going to lament your current condition; all I can say is that there are many, many things that can happen in your life to take your 'security' away ... divorce, personal illness, illness of a loved one, ... I think the list is almost endless. On this point, EM is spot-on - you need to grow a pair before life runs you over.



MGX said:


> 1. No job security exists, it is a myth. Your only security is your ability to leave the house and score work. If it isn't in your field, then boo hoo. You can find something else to stop the gap until something you like is available. I think we've all worked jobs we didn't like for a short period of time, this is nothing unique to your situation.


Very true. I know a number of govt employees who had become accustomed to their job that suddenly found themselves in jeopardy employment-wise. They ended up settling for less pay in a job they really didn't like so that they could hold on to their 'security'.

If you are going to believe that there is security in any job or subsidy available to you then you are extremely foolish placing your life and fate in someone else's hands. You have to create your opportunity and create your destiny ... and as you have already noted; it probably won't be easy. Sorry to say it but many of us have had it tough!



MGX said:


> 3. Life isn't fair, the trick is to make it unfair in your favor (my granddad's quote)


I really like that quote as well!



rppearso said:


> I am probably being a downer and im sorry for that. What do you mean believers use this excuse as a way to circumvent responsibilities, its really simple either you have income and can pay your mortgage or you cant and if the unemployment goes on for to long there are consequences to that thats all I was saying, if you cant get an offer soon enough then things denigrate thats just life I have not had to deal with that yet so I doubt thats is Gods will either, but it does not take very long for things to denigrate to that point.


It's not about being a downer - it's about being empowered. You began with saying how things aren't fair and there are others that have fared better. We all make choices in our life - sometimes it works out, sometimes not. The only thing that matters is how you choose to accept it (or not).

The job market is tough - this isn't McDonalds; you will not get it your way. Carrying debt at this particular point in time is also tough. You aren't going to find ways to reshuffle debt unless it is under VERY secure collateral. You aren't going to find lenders who are very understanding or sympathetic to your situation. Maintaining a household is tough. It seems to take more resources and more time at work while offering less flexibility (in general).

I think the horse is getting beaten here ... but ... man up and take responsibility.

JR


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## rppearso (Nov 27, 2009)

jregieng said:


> error_matrix said:
> 
> 
> > there are people who ARE unemployed w/ poor prospects in their field / State, have children to feed, elderly parents to assist, student loans to pay off, mortgages - I'm one btw. you need to F'n grow a pair! :smileyballs: Stop being such a [email protected] bitch whining about your lot in life when it seems pretty good from where I sit. Sorry to be blunt &amp; rude, just somebody needed to say it.
> ...



I dont think I was ever suggesting that I not take responsibility I was simply venting about things, I ran my finances for 2010 and I just need 2010 to pay off my state student loans if I get laid off after that I can always put my place up for rent and leave the state or sell it or worse case forclose and declair bank rupcy if it turns out im upsidedown on it. It will be very exciting to write the check for the final pay off of the loan. If worse came to worse dieing on the streets is not an impossibility and thats just life.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 27, 2009)

rppearso said:


> [As I said in another post I am not a millionare or my parents are not millionares so it would have been REALLY nice to have a gov financed education and all this money I am dumping into student loans could be dumping it into my condo so I have a roof over my head when im laid off, you can call it what ever you want but I call it not wanting to die.


There *is* government financed education... it's called public school which will get you all the way to a High School Diploma.

Yeah, it'd also be REALLY nice if my wife started walking around the house naked, day and night... but that's right up there with Santa Claus coming down the chimney, the Loch Ness Monster, and you getting a 100% government financed college education.

Do you disagree that EVERYONE in the U.S. can get a college education with sufficient preparation in High School, sacrifice, and hard work?


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## Flyer_PE (Nov 27, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Do you disagree that EVERYONE in the U.S. can get a college education with sufficient preparation in High School, sacrifice, and hard work?


I don't disagree with this at all. I spent my first two years at a community college that had a pre-engineering program. It allowed me to live with my parents and save cash. I ended up with the same 4-year degree as my contemporaries at university. As far as my resume and job prospects, nobody cared where I took the base courses. The only thing that mattered was that I had the BSEE.


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## MGX (Nov 27, 2009)

I'll second that. I also graduated from a two year school and transferred to a four year university. The classes were smaller and just about anyone can afford to pay all the bills at a two year school so if one has to borrow its only for two years at university. Some of the best instructors I've had were at the two year school.

Also, many universities require you live in the dorms for one or two years which are quite expensive. If you stay at home and work the first two years (like those classes are that tough that you can't work and go to school) the debt needed to graduate is really quite manageable.

Of course this probably only applies if one goes to a state school. Most state school don't award laser etched diplomas, but there is little to no evidence that graduating from a prestigious school means you will earn millions more than one who graduated from a state school. What you do with your education is entirely up to you.


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## rppearso (Nov 27, 2009)

MGX said:


> I'll second that. I also graduated from a two year school and transferred to a four year university. The classes were smaller and just about anyone can afford to pay all the bills at a two year school so if one has to borrow its only for two years at university. Some of the best instructors I've had were at the two year school.
> Also, many universities require you live in the dorms for one or two years which are quite expensive. If you stay at home and work the first two years (like those classes are that tough that you can't work and go to school) the debt needed to graduate is really quite manageable.
> 
> Of course this probably only applies if one goes to a state school. Most state school don't award laser etched diplomas, but there is little to no evidence that graduating from a prestigious school means you will earn millions more than one who graduated from a state school. What you do with your education is entirely up to you.


Pretty much, I learned a hard lesson and will be paying for it through next year and having a cheap skate christmas this year and next year until they are paid off. I am going to a local school for an advanced engineering math course and its like 400$ and the instructor is very accomodating so if I decide to pursue the EE degree it will be much cheaper. The next thing to start balloon paymenting out is the condo and once I dont have a student loan payment I can pile a bunch of money up to pay off my condo then the worries will be nill. The laser etched silver degree still looks cool on my wall in a specialty frame and since I already paid for it I might as well enjoy it lol.


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## KingJester (Dec 2, 2009)

rppearso said:


> Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.



Set up a Sub S Corp and work out of your garage...


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## STEEL MAN (Dec 20, 2009)

KingJester said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > Yea auto mechanic is something I have been really thinking about but the problem is its the same story in that field, you go to work for a shop and you end up with about 1/3 of the bill rate, so unless you have the money to set up your own shop your going to be in the same situation as engineering. The only way to get the higher bill rate would be if you were unionized so you could get 2/3 to 80% of your bill rate I think that would be alot more fair but the only way to make that happen is if you were unionized. If I made 80-90% of my bill rate I would not really be concerned about furloughs or lay offs because my bank account would be padded. There is a local contracting outfit in my area that only takes 10% and I applied with them and they said they would get back with me next week so im looking forward to what they say.
> ...



i agree, engineers are expendable, i have been laid off twice this year and found a job twice this year, but im only employed 7 months this year, the economy right now is tough it is a struggle to get projects and at the same time jobs in engineering, i dont know what next year will bring just hope for the best and prepare for the worse.


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