# "Why I want to know my score...."



## Gomer (Jun 20, 2007)

DVINNY said:


> And no, if you pass, you don't get a score. It's just pass/fail. But if you pass, who cares about the score? LOL


Returned from a short vacation Tuesday to the letter in the mailbox. It was one and done for me.

While I really do feel for those who recieved two sheets of paper, that single sheet in my envelope still left a slightly sour taste in my mouth.

I liken it to working in a sausage factory for a year striving to make the best product possible in the worst of conditions only to find out at the end of the year that your sausage was "acceptable".

I put in my time at the sausage factory.


I spent well over $1,500 in fees, materials, and coffee house "dinners".

I probably studied as much for this exam as I did total of my college career.

I tabbed every chapter color coded by section. I photocopied and tabbed the index. Hell, I highlighted every italicized term in the CERM!

I sacrificed a solid month and half of my spring preparing for the exam. And yes, it was a sacrifice. Straight from work every night to study. Home at 10, do it again the next day. I took a break a month in one night to go dinner with my girlfriend. The change of pace was such a shock to my system I was babbling like a madman and devouring everything in sight.

I spent that time on a form of life support provided by my girlfriend. Without her help, I'd surely have failed, starved, or simply lost my mind. I am in her debt and I am sure I will have to pay the piper when she begins work on her thesis.

I had fun taking the test. It didn't worry me. I wasn't anxious. I embraced the challenge. And Praise FSM, I PASSED!!!!

But I want to know how I did.


If I only missed 2, I want to have it permanently attached to my refrigerator.

If I only passed by 2, I want to dance a jig and pat my self on the back for printing that extra 500 page PDF at Kinko's and paying for overnight shipping on that last reference I ordered from Amazon. The single answer I got from each of those made all the difference.

If I scored 2 better than my best friend, I want to hold it over their head every time they question my opinion.

If conversely, I scored 2 less. I want to laugh as I point out that they used "c" for all their guesses while I used "b". That had to be the reason.

We engineers live in a land defined by numbers. We are hardwired for analysis. *PASS* leaves me wanting.

Why can't we know?


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## benbo (Jun 20, 2007)

Geez- you ought to go into the writing business. That was great. But sorry, no score.


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## Road Guy (Jun 20, 2007)

That was excellent writing!


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## theplayer (Jun 20, 2007)

Contact your board and see if they can tell you. I am thinking of doing that myself. :bananalama:


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## jroyce (Jun 20, 2007)

I think you should send that wonderful piece of penmenship to the board and see what they have to say about giving us a score.

Truthfully what does a score tell anyone that hasn't taken the test yet?

It's not like they are giving away the test question or anything that would be a breach of conduct. I think they don't provide score because of how random the scoring process is. Then they would have to tell you how many questions that they throw out (or disregard) and they probably don't want to let you know that in all reality they only grade 10 questions out of the test. Or they just like to :bananalama:

Great writing though none-the-less


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## Guest (Jun 20, 2007)

Very nicely written gomer. I would definintely nominate you for most eloquent writer if you had more posts :bananalama:

Congrats on passing!! :brickwall: :multiplespotting:

JR


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## benbo (Jun 20, 2007)

jregieng said:


> Very nicely written gomer. I would definintely nominate you for most eloquent writer if you had more posts :bananalama:
> Congrats on passing!! :brickwall: :multiplespotting:
> 
> JR


Let's not forget our other poet laureate - the Fudgemeister himself.


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## PEPG (Jun 20, 2007)

That was definately cool reading! But as long as I pass, I don't care about my score. Oddly enough, I would like to know my score if I fail.


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## mudpuppy (Jun 20, 2007)

SapperPE said:


> You know, Virginia gives out the scores,


Hmmmm.... maybe I'll take the test again in VA just to see what score I can get.

.....NAH, not worth it!!!


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## Dleg (Jun 20, 2007)

> And Praise FSM, I PASSED!!!!


A fellow Pastafarian?

I agree with you fully. I know why they don't want to give out scores, but I'd love to know how I did.


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## HiVolts (Jun 20, 2007)

Fortunately my preperation was enough to squeak me by this time around. Therefore, I have no intention of knowing - but instead will tell all my colleagues I NAILED IT!!! :Locolaugh:


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## ColoradoME (Jun 20, 2007)

I agree with you. I want to know my score as well. Of course, I live in Colorado so it will probably be after the Fourth before I even find out if I passed or not.

It's killing me to come home every day, check both this and the CO website, and still not have an answer when so many other states have posted.

What the Hell is taking so long?


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## Ritchie503 (Jun 21, 2007)

I am with you Gomer, I passed too but it would be interesting to see the test results. At least they give people who fail the information they do, at some point in the future they could not give out anything (or give much less than they do now).

My lawyer friend tells me that in Minnesota for the bar exam if you want your results its an extra $35, since they passed they were not paying the state more money just to see how they did.


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## theplayer (Jun 21, 2007)

I contacted my board (AR) because I was curious to see if they could give out my score. They said all they give out is a pass/fail. So I don't even know if NCEES reports our scores to the boards.


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## sxv (Jun 21, 2007)

I took the afternoon Geoteh. I got a 68 (Texas Board gives the score). I am debating should i pay $75 and go for regrading....................Do you guys know about any one passing the PE after regrading??????????????

Please help


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## vongwv (Jun 21, 2007)

In Oregon, I know a guy that works for ODOT, he failed his first time taking the test, so he paid...went up to Salem and had them recheck it. Turns out they just added up the scores wrong and he passed. I'm sure that's a rare occurence, but you never know.


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## Boom (Jun 21, 2007)

vongwv said:


> In Oregon, I know a guy that works for ODOT, he failed his first time taking the test, so he paid...went up to Salem and had them recheck it. Turns out they just added up the scores wrong and he passed. I'm sure that's a rare occurence, but you never know.


WOW... I've heard that on the old format (of showing work) that it was worth asking for a recheck, but never on the new one. I mean the test is two parts, you would hope that they can add two numbers, I mean they could use one of the hundreds of calculators that they confiscated.


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## vongwv (Jun 21, 2007)

It was in the old format days when he took it, so you're right Boom, there was more of a chance of regrading coming out differently. Scantron I'm sure is a lot harder to screw up on....at least I hope. The only reason I'd pay is for peace of mind but I doubt it's worth it.


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## Dleg (Jun 21, 2007)

theplayer said:


> I contacted my board (AR) because I was curious to see if they could give out my score. They said all they give out is a pass/fail. So I don't even know if NCEES reports our scores to the boards.


My board (CNMI) told me the same thing - NCEES only reports "pass" - no score. But since there are apparently a few states that give results, this must not be standard.


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## jfusilloPE (Jun 22, 2007)

Funny thing about sausage.

Today is the anniversay of Bob Evan's restaurants. Apparently he (Bob) started the chain with $1000 in his pocket and a pig...

Why I can't get lucky like that is beyond me!


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jun 22, 2007)

Gomer said:


> Why can't we know?


Very eloquent. But it's not that kind of test. the purpose is not to find out who is the smartest engineer out there. the purpose is to ensure that all engineers that pass meet a minimal level of knowledge. Once you get above the cut score, your score is irrelevant. A 70 PE is no different than a 100 PE.


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## irisheng (Jun 22, 2007)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Very eloquent. But it's not that kind of test. the purpose is not to find out who is the smartest engineer out there. the purpose is to ensure that all engineers that pass meet a minimal level of knowledge. Once you get above the cut score, your score is irrelevant. A 70 PE is no different than a 100 PE.


I agree with Mike,

Would you really want to know if the doctor preforming open heart surgery on your just barely passed the medical board with a 71 when the cut-off (no pun intended) was a 70 as he sharpens his knife


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## MA_PE (Jun 22, 2007)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Very eloquent. But it's not that kind of test. the purpose is not to find out who is the smartest engineer out there. the purpose is to ensure that all engineers that pass meet a minimal level of knowledge. Once you get above the cut score, your score is irrelevant. A 70 PE is no different than a 100 PE.


My interpretation exactly.



> If I scored 2 better than my best friend, I want to hold it over their head every time they question my opinion.


It is just this type of attitude that they are trying to suppress. I'll assume that the OP was writing it in jest, but there are a lot of arrogant A$$holes that will assume an air of superiority and believe that they are "better" engineers because they scored higher on the test.


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## MA_PE (Jun 22, 2007)

irisheng said:


> I agree with Mike,
> Would you really want to know if the doctor preforming open heart surgery on your just barely passed the medical board with a 71 when the cut-off (no pun intended) was a 70 as he sharpens his knife


Suppose the MD test was general practice and your surgeon spent the bulk of his time in med school and as an intern focusing on the cardio system, ending up near the top of his class with his cardio studies. Later he took the test he had to learn the podiatry questions and the gastrointestinal questions or the inner ear questions, etc. and he got a bunch wrong but made his passing grade of 70 and got his license.

Yeah I think I'd want him to do my heart surgery.


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## civilsid (Jun 24, 2007)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Very eloquent. But it's not that kind of test. the purpose is not to find out who is the smartest engineer out there. the purpose is to ensure that all engineers that pass meet a minimal level of knowledge. Once you get above the cut score, your score is irrelevant. A 70 PE is no different than a 100 PE.


O.K. I will dive into the shit heap on this one- I DISAGREE and here is my reasoning:

My good friend is a Certified Flight Instructor and he is teaching me to fly my little Cessna 172. He told me that your grades are recorded and they stay with you. I'm not sure if they are actually on his flight credentials or how that works but I think that is great.

My friend "aced" all of his flight exams and I feel more comfortable learning from him because I know I am getting quality training.

Not all engineers are created equal. Some people take the profession a lot more seriously than others. I have seen stamped drawings that I would not go near with a 10 foot pole. I think a superior exam score would be indicative of someone that a) has a better understanding of the material and B) has a greater level of dedication.

In the same way that companies will head hunt the "A" students from college, a high exam score speaks volumes when that is the exclusive filter for differentiating the licensed engineer from the unlicensed one.

Besides, almost everywhere else in the real world, things get ranked or graded. Do you want to go see a movie that got 1 star or 4 stars? How about Consumer Reports where everything under the sun gets a relative score so people can figure out which washing machine or popcorn maker to buy? When you watch a football game, you want to know the score, not just who won. Did they win by one point or did they crush the competition? I think pass-fail is the wuss way out.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jun 24, 2007)

I reiterate that I don't think it's that kind of exam.

Imagine if the people that write the questions wrote really hard assed questions. Only the brightest engineers would get them right and we'd end up with only 5% passing rates. Or worse yet, if the questions were all hard ones, the passing score would be really low and people could get a license by guessing and knowing very little.

So they make the questions more fair and not as hard so you have to know a minimum amount to get them right and get enough right to pass. So the exam is not structured to find the smartest engineers. The questions are written so you have to know a minimal amount. If you get all 80 questions right, all that means is that you got 80 minimally competent questions right. I guess that could make you "smarter" than someone who got 60/80 minimally competent questions right, but not IMHO.

Just my :2cents:


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## Dleg (Jun 24, 2007)

I think you're right, Mike. My impression of the Environmental exam was that there was no way any one person could know or have references to answer all of the qualitiative questions that were asked. This seems to make it clear that the test is designed with a somewhat shotgun-styled approach. They probably throw out as wide a range of questions as possible to help cover the impossibly wide range of experiences that practicing engineers can have, fully expecting that most people are not going to be able to answer a certain percentage. In that respect, it does no good to report scores beyond simply pass/fail. The test is simply not designed for anything other than determining that minimum "passing" cut.


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## Road Guy (Jun 24, 2007)

I will admit that I am most likely a 70 PE Engineer.


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## grover (Jun 25, 2007)

The problem with knowing your score is that so few other people know their score, that it's meaningless. What does it matter if you got a 71 or a 75 or a 95 without knowing the context of how it compares? We don't know the scaling formula or how it translates into a percentile- did 95% of the people that passed, pass with a 70-75? Or does the bell-curve peak around mid-70s and make a score of 80 simply average? It just adds a new dimension to the frustration. I mean, if the only dick you see is your own, how do you know how it really compares? Albeit, better than not knowing at all, that's for sure!

For what it's worth, I got an 89 on the FE (general) and 85 on the PE (EEower).

The 89 on the FE was actually very useful- let me know my studdy habits were inefficient- 19 points over is nothing but wasted effort! So, I cut back for the PE


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## Gomer (Jun 26, 2007)

First off... thanks to all who complimented my writing!



MA_PE said:


> My interpretation exactly.It is just this type of attitude that they are trying to suppress. I'll assume that the OP was writing it in jest, but there are a lot of arrogant A$$holes that will assume an air of superiority and believe that they are "better" engineers because they scored higher on the test.


100% in jest =) The nice thing about arrogant A$$holes is that they tend to be top-heavy. It's easy to bring them down!



SapperPE said:


> Here are my thoughts on the matter, for what it is worth.
> 2. I think we should be informed of our score, because of nothing more than satisfying that primal desire to know as much as possible about the result of our efforts as we can. I don't consider my score against my peers, and they don't consider their scores against mine. I also don't think any less of an engineer who took the exam 4 times and passed on the last attempt, and I don't think any higher of an engineer who passed it on the first attempt. Every single human being is different and has different distractors and also different responsibilities that may physically limit their ability to study for months of their life in order to obtain a 90% on the exam.


That's it exactly.



grover said:


> The problem with knowing your score is that so few other people know their score, that it's meaningless. What does it matter if you got a 71 or a 75 or a 95 without knowing the context of how it compares? We don't know the scaling formula or how it translates into a percentile- did 95% of the people that passed, pass with a 70-75? Or does the bell-curve peak around mid-70s and make a score of 80 simply average? It just adds a new dimension to the frustration. I mean, if the only dick you see is your own, how do you know how it really compares? Albeit, better than not knowing at all, that's for sure!
> For what it's worth, I got an 89 on the FE (general) and 85 on the PE (EEower).
> 
> The 89 on the FE was actually very useful- let me know my studdy habits were inefficient- 19 points over is nothing but wasted effort! So, I cut back for the PE


After thinking about it... they could give us both our score and percentile. And after thinking about it even more, if I had to choose only one. I'd be happy with a percentile.

*Great forum everyone* Thanks to the body of advice that is engineerboards for helping me *ACE* (ha!) my PE exam.


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## Road Guy (Jun 26, 2007)

it could be like the erosion control class where they post everyones scores online by there birthdate.

&amp; yes I did point out that on that particular exam I did infact get the high score :winko:


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## Dark Knight (Jun 27, 2007)

My score???.... WGASA.....I passed and thats the bottom line.

Hey DV. Can you create a new smiley or emoticon with that letters?

WGASA....I love it


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## LXZ (Jun 27, 2007)

Gomer said:


> Returned from a short vacation Tuesday to the letter in the mailbox. It was one and done for me.
> While I really do feel for those who recieved two sheets of paper, that single sheet in my envelope still left a slightly sour taste in my mouth.
> 
> I liken it to working in a sausage factory for a year striving to make the best product possible in the worst of conditions only to find out at the end of the year that your sausage was "acceptable".
> ...


First, big congrats! As long as you know you passed the exam, the score should not matter that much. After all, this is not an exam as GRE or SAT. Don't take it too serious.


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## MA_PE (Jun 27, 2007)

Luis said:


> My score???.... WGASA.....I passed and thats the bottom line.
> Hey DV. Can you create a new smiley or emoticon with that letters?
> 
> WGASA....I love it


Acronym Definition

WGASA World's Greatest Animal Show Anywhere :laugh:

???


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## stompbox (Jun 27, 2007)

civilsid said:


> O.K. I will dive into the shit heap on this one- I DISAGREE and here is my reasoning:
> My good friend is a Certified Flight Instructor and he is teaching me to fly my little Cessna 172. He told me that your grades are recorded and they stay with you. I'm not sure if they are actually on his flight credentials or how that works but I think that is great.
> 
> My friend "aced" all of his flight exams and I feel more comfortable learning from him because I know I am getting quality training.
> ...



This is BS in my mind.

I know a few people that when they used to report the scores had 90% or higher on the PE exam..... They have never been successful managers, they are successful engineers but they do not like to give out their work and deal with other people. As result, the project take too long, are over budget, and it not only pisses off the clients but the company they work for as well......

Test scores are not everything when you have to deal with co-workers, clients, the public, AND manage your budget.

In summary, the PE is a level of competency in engineering. This does not mean that you *should be* promoted, *should be* a project manager, *should be* more valuable to the company than a EIT.


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## Hill William (Jun 27, 2007)

civilsid said:


> O.K. I will dive into the shit heap on this one- I DISAGREE and here is my reasoning:
> My good friend is a Certified Flight Instructor and he is teaching me to fly my little Cessna 172. He told me that your grades are recorded and they stay with you. I'm not sure if they are actually on his flight credentials or how that works but I think that is great.
> 
> My friend "aced" all of his flight exams and I feel more comfortable learning from him because I know I am getting quality training.
> ...




I went to school with several "A" students who were f'in retards when it came to common sense, logic, and real world problem solving (kinda what we do.)


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jun 27, 2007)

DIAZWV said:


> I went to school with several "A" students who were *f'in retards *when it came to common sense, logic, and real world problem solving (kinda what we do.)


Yes. We refer to those people as ftards. Or efftards. Your choice.


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## DVINNY (Jun 27, 2007)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Yes. We refer to those people as ftards. Or efftards. Your choice.


MIG, I like that. I may use that. "the Efftards tend to spew alot of Effluent"

Works for me.


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## MA_PE (Jun 27, 2007)

> In summary, the PE is a level of competency in engineering. This does not mean that you *should be* promoted, *should be* a project manager, *should be* more valuable to the company than a EIT.


If the PE is a "level of competency in engineering" then by definition a PE (by nature of the required experience and by demonstrating the level of competency by passing at least one 8hr test) should in fact be more valuable to the company than an EIT. No it does not mean that he/she should be promoted or a project manager but the PE qualification should certianly be taken into consideration for promotion or project manager status over someone who is not registered.

The topic is about whether the passing score should be divulged not whether the PE means anything or not. Your statements imply that being registered as a PE doesn't have any relevance. That is BS.

I am not going to sit here and listen to you bad mouth the United States of America.


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## kevo_55 (Jun 27, 2007)

MA_PE said:


> I am not going to sit here and listen to you bad mouth the United Sattes of America.


USA

USA

USA

:unitedstates:

Sorry, I couldn't resist.


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## stompbox (Jun 27, 2007)

MA_PE said:


> If the PE is a "level of competency in engineering" then by definition a PE (by nature of the required experience and by demonstrating the level of competency by passing at least one 8hr test) should in fact be more valuable to the company than an EIT. No it does not mean that he/she should be promoted or a project manager but the PE qualification should certianly be taken into consideration for promotion or project manager status over someone who is not registered.
> The topic is about whether the passing score should be divulged not whether the PE means anything or not. Your statements imply that being registered as a PE doesn't have any relevance. That is BS.
> 
> I am not going to sit here and listen to you bad mouth the United Sattes of America.



i got a little off topic DiazWV summed up what i was saying pretty nicely.


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jun 27, 2007)

I agree with MA_PE. Passing the PE exam demonstrates proficiency in one's technical area and as such should be a big factor when considering promotion etc. Management on the other hand is not so technical, but a blend of art and science and the length and type of experience plays a major role in the kind of manager you are. Having a PE does not necessarily make you a good project manager, but it gives you a lot of credibility on the technical front.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jun 27, 2007)

civilsid said:


> Besides, almost everywhere else in the real world, things get ranked or graded. Do you want to go see a movie that got 1 star or 4 stars? How about Consumer Reports where everything under the sun gets a relative score so people can figure out which washing machine or popcorn maker to buy? When you watch a football game, you want to know the score, not just who won. Did they win by one point or did they crush the competition? I think pass-fail is the wuss way out.


Well, the movie example I'll ignore because it's based on opinion.

Consumer Reports tests are designed to determine which washing machine is the best - a different kind of test than if the test that they used only determined if the washing machine met a certain quality guideline. That's what UL does. UL testing doesn't determine which is the best - just that it meets a minimum level so as not to kill anyone...... Kind of like the PE test.


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## Hill William (Jun 27, 2007)

stompbox said:


> i got a little off topic DiazWV summed up what i was saying pretty nicely.



I can't type so I have to use short sentences.


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## Road Guy (Jun 27, 2007)

Part of me would still like to know, but a big part knows that I barely passed. I would take special joy knowing that my testing method of doing the AM session, then working the first 15 questions in the PM, and then leaving, paid off 

I worked with a guy who scored in the 90’s on the EIT, very smart, but he couldn’t put out a full complete set of plans to save his life. Sure he could draw a nice concept, develop a NASA certified spreadsheet to handle the quantities, but as far as dragging the full complete bid package across the goal line, you can forget that.

I would like to hear an explanation though of why they don’t pass out numbered scores.

Part of me thinks that since the passing percentage for second timers is so low that maybe the thought is that people will be more likely to study more in depth the second time around, rather than saying damn I made a 68! Guess I can just do a few more hydrology problems.


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## Dark Knight (Jun 27, 2007)

MA_PE said:


> Acronym Definition WGASA World's Greatest Animal Show Anywhere :laugh:
> 
> ???


Nope. It is *W*ho *G*Ives *A* *S*hit *A*nyways

I think it is funny but...WGASA


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## MA_PE (Jun 27, 2007)

Luis said:


> Nope. It is *W*ho *G*Ives *A* *S*hit *A*nyways
> I think it is funny but...WGASA


I see said the blind man. Actually my google inquiry provided both. :laugh:


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jun 28, 2007)

Great! I can add it to my ever expanding vocabulary. Have you guys heard of BOHICA?

Stands for Bend Over Here It Comes Again. An ex-Navy colleague of mine told me that.


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## MA_PE (Jun 28, 2007)

VA_Env_Engr said:


> Great! I can add it to my ever expanding vocabulary. Have you guys heard of BOHICA?
> Stands for Bend Over Here It Comes Again. An ex-Navy colleague of mine told me that.



That brings to mind

An ex-NAVY friend of mine said..... NAVY - Never Again Volunteer Yourself.


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jun 28, 2007)

:laugh: I'll pass it along to my colleague.


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