# October 2014 SE Test - How did it go?



## DaveEng (Oct 25, 2014)

How do you feel about the test?


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 25, 2014)

Aced it, about time I didn't get any stupid questions that were out in left field and not typical of what a structural engineer does each day.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 25, 2014)

Aced??? Man, you're some kind of genius! That was the hardest thing I've ever taken by far haha.


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## DaveEng (Oct 25, 2014)

I took both vertical and lateral. Vertical was not too bad. I had some trouble figuring out what they were asking and what I could assume. Looking back I know I screwed some stuff up. The lateral morning I thought was pretty rough. I was really worried during the break. But the afternoon I did well except the concrete problem. After the vertical exam, I was more mentally prepared for the test questions and had more of an overall strategy. One things for sure I learned: take time to read the problem and all of its parameters and be aware of what they are asking vs what information they have provided. But I was surprised at how tricky the exam can be, particularly the multiple choice - more difficult than the NCEES practice exam. I feel like the problems that stumped me I couldn't have really prepared for. The bridge questions were killer - I guessed on probably half those.

I hope I pass this thing because I do not want to have to go through that again. It was tough!


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 26, 2014)

I totally agree. I did the same, both tests. I definitely don't want to go through even one day again, but by Saturday afternoon, I was dragging. Both mornings I thought were somewhat challenging. I did a lot more studying on vertical stuff, even though I'm much more familiar with it. So I went into the afternoon thinking I was going to be a lot more unprepared than I think I ended up being. I was able to find stuff quickly enough in the codes (I think). The real problems I'm wrestling with are (a) on the questions that I was confident with my answer, you never know if you missed a factor or something that gave you the wrong answer choice, and (b) I really have no idea what the difference between "acceptable", "needs improvement", and unacceptable" are. Is unacceptable just like you barely did anything? Is "needs improvement" mean you really didn't get anything right but hey you tried? Is acceptable mean you nailed it, or is there a lot of leeway in there? If there's a lot of leeway in acceptable, then I feel good. Since scoring is such a nebulous cloud, all I can say is I went 16 rounds with it, and hope I won by TKO haha.

Looking forward to reporting back in a couple of months. Good luck to everyone during the waiting game!


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## DaveEng (Oct 26, 2014)

I have been wondering the same exact thing. What is acceptable? Unacceptable? How much room for error is there? I keep going over things in my head and trying to manage my expectations. Is messing up on one afternoon problem enough to fail? How many multiple choice can you miss? (which, by the way, are weighed equally) I think they should adjust the for the difficulty of the question and whether or not you are bridge/building person. I will say in the lateral afternoon you had to know ASCE 7 Chapter 12 really well. There were more than a few things that triggered parts of the code that you had to know were there. I hope I didn't overlook anything.


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## darius (Oct 27, 2014)

Very challenging and loooong test.I feel pretty decent about afternoon both sessions. I was able to finish everything and answer every question. On each day one of the problems took me 1.5 hours, luckily it happened to be the last one I worked on and I had some saved time from previous three problems. In the morning sessions, I had to guess in half of the bridge problems and already figured that I screwed like 3-4 each day. So, if all the other results I found would be correct I would feel better, but as mikesltj23 said you never know when you forgot something and you went wrong.

You have to know everything in and out. Is a very complex exam and requires speed and knowledge. Once you read the problem you already have to know exactly where is the reference and understand the concept. If not, you better skip and come back later otherwise you waste precious time and you'll end up struggling at the end.

I hope for the best to everyone because is a tough marathon!


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## Agostage (Oct 27, 2014)

I took lateral for the third time (passed vertical a while ago). This was my best performance thus far. Finished AM with a lot of time left, only a couple questions I wasn't sure on. PM for me, although still intense, I felt confident on. I caught the little (but important) nuances they sprinkle in there and thinking back on the problems I stand by my answers. That has never happened. I got burned last time by getting my hopes up so I'm trying to remain cautiously optimistic.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 27, 2014)

Yeah, that's how I feel Agostage. I did much better finishing problems on time than any of the attempts before (both vertical and lateral) and actually having only a few problems I struggled on really helped my confidence. There were two guys with me who were just seeing the lateral test for the first time (both passed vertical) and they really struggled. I think this is one of those exams that it really helps to see it once, then you'll have a much better idea what to expect going into it again.

As for "unacceptable", "needs improvement", "acceptable"; as best I can tell (which isn't much) acceptable means you got everything right or at least had all the steps and presented enough knowledge that, given more time and a double check, you would have reasonable got the right answer. "Needs improvement" means you left something out, missed a step or two, or got something really wrong but everything else was okay. If you didn't finish a problem but wrote all the steps out I think you can get a "needs improvement" if everything else was right. "Unacceptable" I believe is when you didn't finish and got things wrong, or just didn't get the problem right. It appears to be very easy to get unacceptable and hard to get acceptable. I believe that any unacceptable will likely make it very hard to pass unless you aced the morning session.

But, what do I know, could be completely different.


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## DaveEng (Oct 27, 2014)

How would compare the level of difficulty with the previous lateral tests? I think I caught most if not all of the code nuances they put in there which is very important to be able to recognize. I just hope I did well enough on the AM.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 27, 2014)

I've only taken lateral once before but this was MUCH easier compared to April. The questions weren't something I didn't expect to see on the exam and the "gotcha" tricks seemed quite reasonable (table footnotes and other tricks). The bridge questions were easy enough for non-bridge guys. Definitely still hard, though. The PM had me worried but as I knew how to answer each problem it wasn't too bad. Definitely got lucky in one way, my prep work was almost exactly what was on the exam, so it could be harder if you weren't as lucky as I was in studying. However, like I said, it was what I hoped/expected to see on the exam.

Pro-tip, write down notes of what you remember from the exam. If you have to re-take anything then you'll be happy you did. You'll be surprised what you'll have forgotten after 6 months.


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## Agostage (Oct 27, 2014)

I think the level of difficulty from the last three laterals were pretty consistent; they progressively felt better to me because of my improvements, I believe. Had I had this exam my first go I think I would have been equally lost.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 27, 2014)

Also, FYI, based on the past release dates looks like we're going to get results released around 12/16 this year. Merry Christmas!


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## DaveEng (Oct 27, 2014)

How am I supposed to wait 1.5 months for results! I didn't anticipate how difficult this part was going to be


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 27, 2014)

Don't worry, you'll forget about it after a month. It's those last two weeks that are a real killer.


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## xjggre (Oct 27, 2014)

I took vertical and lateral (bridge) first time and felt time is extremely tight. Guess about 6~7 questions of morning and hardly to finish all for afternoon.

But anyway I would say it's much easier than the NCEES practice exams.

I will have to re-take both next April.

Since I only spent two months to prepare two exams, nothing to complain.


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## DaveEng (Oct 27, 2014)

You thought it was easier than the practice exams? I thought it was more difficult.


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## xjggre (Oct 27, 2014)

Just from my personal experience. When I took practice exams one week ago, I have to guess about 10~12 questions.

And also I thought it's more straight than NCEES (lots of tricks in NCEES).


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 27, 2014)

xjggre said:


> I took vertical and lateral (bridge) first time and felt time is extremely tight. Guess about 6~7 questions of morning and hardly to finish all for afternoon.
> 
> But anyway I would say it's much easier than the NCEES practice exams.
> 
> ...




I see you're from NY...where did you end up taking it??

And after seeing the assessment as to what it takes to get "Acceptable", I can now confidently say I didn't pass haha. I was hoping acceptable was showing all the proper steps with some screw ups in there. I feel like I definitely screwed up every problem to some degree...came up with answers for everything, but none that I was rock solid on either. I guess we'll see. I feel like I successfully got 4 "Needs Improvement" based on how it was just described haha. Maybe I'll surprise myself.


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## xjggre (Oct 27, 2014)

mikesltj23 said:


> xjggre said:
> 
> 
> > I took vertical and lateral (bridge) first time and felt time is extremely tight. Guess about 6~7 questions of morning and hardly to finish all for afternoon.
> ...




Albany. only I and other building guy.

I think it's hard to show all the proper steps in such a short time, not mention to get everything right.

I guess it will be acceptable if you finish above 75% questions.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 27, 2014)

xjggre said:


> mikesltj23 said:
> 
> 
> > xjggre said:
> ...


Ah okay cool. I was wondering if we had just taken the test together in CT.

Yeah, I can't imagine that any of my answers were "unacceptable" on the afternoon, but based on the previous description, I guess it's totally possible.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 27, 2014)

I think if you demonstrate that you knew what you were doing you can get acceptable. I seem to recall some people on here not finishing a problem but writing out the steps. They didn't pass but saw that they got acceptable even though they didn't finish the problem.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 27, 2014)

TehMightyEngineer said:


> I think if you demonstrate that you knew what you were doing you can get acceptable. I seem to recall some people on here not finishing a problem but writing out the steps. They didn't pass but saw that they got acceptable even though they didn't finish the problem.




I didn't have that situation because I did finish everything...though I might have skipped a couple parts and said what I would be checking or what the next steps would be, but knew I was running low on time. I think I showed competency in what I was doing, but somewhere along the lines would get a wrong number. Not THAT often, but I'd get to a point where let's say I used the wrong value, or maybe I didn't determine something the proper way in one part, but the rest of it I showed the proper path.

The one thing this test revealed is that my basic knowledge of statics and theories and anything that's not code-related is limited at this point in my career. I've relied on computers all too much lately. Code stuff, I was rock solid on. I have experience with every code that is on the book (really except the Seismic Design Manual). But I was surprised at how bad of an actual engineer this test revealed me to be haha.


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## Agostage (Oct 27, 2014)

One thing I have learned is that completing each problem, calculations and all, is not necessarily a good gauge of your competency, for PM. The afternoon questions do not explicitly give you a heads up about everything you need to cover and recognize. You can easily go through each problem, answer each question seemingly thoroughly, get reasonable numbers and yet miss what I call 'deal breakers'. Like perfectly designing a special braced frame connection in detail, but you used the actual load instead of the expected brace strength. Something like that exposes you and likely is a big point loss. However, making a lot of calculation errors and maybe not finishing the problem but you state the importance of using the expected brace load is probably going to better demonstrate your competence. This is why I have learned not to trust how I feel after the exam, because you don't know what you don't know.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 28, 2014)

Agostage said:


> One thing I have learned is that completing each problem, calculations and all, is not necessarily a good gauge of your competency, for PM. The afternoon questions do not explicitly give you a heads up about everything you need to cover and recognize. You can easily go through each problem, answer each question seemingly thoroughly, get reasonable numbers and yet miss what I call 'deal breakers'. Like perfectly designing a special braced frame connection in detail, but you used the actual load instead of the expected brace strength. Something like that exposes you and likely is a big point loss. However, making a lot of calculation errors and maybe not finishing the problem but you state the importance of using the expected brace load is probably going to better demonstrate your competence. This is why I have learned not to trust how I feel after the exam, because you don't know what you don't know.




Haha that is definitely not a comforting thing to hear! Oh well. I thought they just told you whether what you got was acceptable, needs improvement, or unacceptable. They tell you specifically where you lost credit? Or are you speculating on that being the case as to how it's scored?

I thought I was going to be able to just let go after the test was over, but now I'm more anxious than before the test! With each comment, I'm feeling less and less confident haha.


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## DaveEng (Oct 28, 2014)

I am way more anxious now than before the test. I keep thinking of little things that I did wrong and its breaking me down. I hope Agostage is right. I hope they are more interested in methodology and logic than actual numbers. When you're burning through 16 hours of test its so easy to make careless errors. And it seems like I've heard of people who felt really good about the test fail and others who have walked out feeling defeated end up passing. So, I don't know what to think.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 28, 2014)

I believe they are more interested in methodology but obviously numbers count as well.

In the end, we really can only make very, very rough guesses on the grading methodology. No sense worrying too much as we'll all find out in 6 weeks.


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## Agostage (Oct 28, 2014)

No they don't give you a breakdown for the PM, only whether it was acceptable, needs improvement or unacceptable as you already know. My observations are based on which answers of mine were considered acceptable over several attempts. For example, I've gotten acceptable results on problems I know I didn't finish or was way off but genuinely knew what I was doing. I recognized how off the answer must be and acknowledged it. That was acceptable.

Was not my intent to cause stress, no one here needs that. I recommend cautious optimism, and not to think about it too much.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 28, 2014)

Agostage said:


> No they don't give you a breakdown for the PM, only whether it was acceptable, needs improvement or unacceptable as you already know. My observations are based on which answers of mine were considered acceptable over several attempts. For example, I've gotten acceptable results on problems I know I didn't finish or was way off but genuinely knew what I was doing. I recognized how off the answer must be and acknowledged it. That was acceptable.
> 
> Was not my intent to cause stress, no one here needs that. I recommend cautious optimism, and not to think about it too much.




I see what you're saying. And it's just my own insecurities playing games with me...I didn't mean to put that on you!

You guys are right...we really shouldn't worry about it because it's out of our control anyway! (unless one of you is an expert grader...then I beg for leniency)


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## DaveEng (Oct 28, 2014)

I have heard that they get professional engineers to take the exam and then come up with a pass/fail grade based off the average grades of those results (or probably some sort of statistical method).

Yeah, I would love not to worry about. I'm sure in a week or two I will be able to put it in the back of my mind.


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## darius (Oct 28, 2014)

Yes Dave you are absolutely right. I don't know what method they use but I was involved in something similar in the past with the Seismic exam for getting Pe in California.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 28, 2014)

DaveEng said:


> I have heard that they get professional engineers to take the exam and then come up with a pass/fail grade based off the average grades of those results (or probably some sort of statistical method).
> 
> Yeah, I would love not to worry about. I'm sure in a week or two I will be able to put it in the back of my mind.


Wait, they get PEs to take the SE to judge a curve? That doesn't make any sense to me. What does a PE have to do with an SE? I have a PE but that wouldn't prepare me any more or any less for this test.


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## darius (Oct 28, 2014)

mikesltj23 said:


> DaveEng said:
> 
> 
> > I have heard that they get professional engineers to take the exam and then come up with a pass/fail grade based off the average grades of those results (or probably some sort of statistical method).
> ...


I am 100% sure you have to be SE in order to see a sample SE Exam. I think he meant professional as licensed on that specific field you are taking the exam.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 29, 2014)

Got it, misunderstood.


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## DaveEng (Oct 29, 2014)

So it hit me yesterday what they were asking for one of the questions. Something about the way they worded the question threw me off. Now I'm real upset because I know exactly how to solve it but wrote calcs that weren't relevant. Did anyone have a similar experience?


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 29, 2014)

Nope, I've almost completely forgotten the questions, but I wouldn't rule out me misinterpreting the question!


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## kevo_55 (Oct 29, 2014)

Dave,

You forgot the most important thing after finishing the exam..... to start drinking heavily.

The way I always felt with these things is that there isn't any way to change it after the fact so you might as well make the best of the situation.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 29, 2014)

DaveEng said:


> So it hit me yesterday what they were asking for one of the questions. Something about the way they worded the question threw me off. Now I'm real upset because I know exactly how to solve it but wrote calcs that weren't relevant. Did anyone have a similar experience?




Nope, seemed straight-forward to me.


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## DaveEng (Oct 29, 2014)

Yeah, whats done is done.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Oct 29, 2014)

This reminds me, I really need to get another homebrew batch going...


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## phecke (Oct 29, 2014)

Just a few words to maybe sooth your fears from somebody with past experience. When I took it this past April, I remembered some of the questions that I had trouble with. The following Monday (I didn't do anything Sunday except go to the French Quarter fest, perks of living in NOLA) I went back to the office and solved some of the questions using various programs that I had. I had gotten most of them wrong it seems, and I had resigned myself to taking it again this October (last weekend). Turns out I passed both Vertical and Lateral. So I will tell you this, you tend to remember the ones you had trouble with or were difficult, and the ones you got right and were easy you forget. So don't get too down on yourself if it seems like you got everything wrong, it's just because you're focusing on the hard stuff you didn't breeze through and you're forgetting how well you probably did.


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## DaveEng (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks phecke, and you're right, you tend to focus on things that gave you trouble. So, like everyone else, I'm going to remain cautiously optimistic.


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## mikesltj23 (Oct 29, 2014)

Thanks phecke! Definitely gonna keep that in mind.


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## darius (Oct 29, 2014)

That was a good one Phecke!!!

I was feeling good after test and even now I feel okay sometimes, but other times I feel like I didn't do anything and I should start studying right now to make sure for next time ! It's crazy!!

Gotta drink more often to forget!


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## TehMightyEngineer (Nov 18, 2014)

Four weeks to go and I'm already freaking out...not good.


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## DaveEng (Nov 19, 2014)

Hang in there, TME. I don't think you need to lose any sleep, I'm sure you passed this time around. I have pushed it towards the back of my mind. I became exhausted thinking about it. I have mentally prepared myself to retake lateral next April. Will they send us an email or something when the results are posted?


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## TehMightyEngineer (Nov 19, 2014)

Not unless your state sends you an email. I've only received results via letters and checking the NCEES website.


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## darius (Nov 20, 2014)

I got to a point where I don't even care if I passed or not... or not really  ...but I know if I didn't, I am right there...so one more push.

Let's enjoy 2014 because is almost over!

Cheers!


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## TJM (Nov 20, 2014)

I received an email from NCEES when the results were ready this past spring.


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## bassplayer45 (Dec 2, 2014)

It is encouraging to hear that people are feeling the lateral multiple choice are "evening out" and not being too far in left field. Last year when I took it, they came from all directions and caught me off guard. I think I got around 24-40 right with acceptable on all essays and didn't pass, was very frustrating. I hate how they grade these things.


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## str_academy (Dec 4, 2014)

Structural scoring workshop is scheduled for Dec 4-6 per NCEES Licensure Exchange. I think results will trickle down starting next week.


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## TehMightyEngineer (Dec 4, 2014)

End of next week was the earliest I would expect them based on historical release dates.


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## Andy Lin (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm nervous for you guys...lol

Good luck!


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## TehMightyEngineer (Dec 12, 2014)

We don't need your help.


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## DaveEng (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm starting to feel the anxiety resurface...


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## mikesltj23 (Dec 14, 2014)

DaveEng said:


> I'm starting to feel the anxiety resurface...


Been checking every day for the last week,several times a day.


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