# Is it true that you don't have to be an engineer in some states to obtain a PE?



## GT ME (Jul 4, 2008)

I thought NCEES requires an engineering degree from an accredited school.

Considering some of the PE designations are a joke in that they're not engineering at all, I wouldn't be surprised to hear some states don't require an engineering degree from an accredited school.

:smileyballs:


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## Dark Knight (Jul 4, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I thought NCEES requires an engineering degree from an accredited school.
> Considering some of the PE designations are a joke in that they're not engineering at all, I wouldn't be surprised to hear some states don't require an engineering degree from an accredited school.
> 
> :smileyballs:


WGASA??????????


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## Dexman1349 (Jul 5, 2008)

Yeah you can get a CO PE with 12 years of experience and having passed both the FE and the PE exams.

http://www.dora.state.co.us/aes/licensing/...ments-pepls.htm


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## mech engineer (Jul 5, 2008)

Dexman1349 said:


> Yeah you can get a CO PE with 12 years of experience and having passed both the FE and the PE exams.
> http://www.dora.state.co.us/aes/licensing/...ments-pepls.htm


There is a similar rule in NY - if you have enough years of experience you don't even have to graduate from a kindergarden. You document your years of experience, get your references, and you are good to go... :Locolaugh:


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## kevo_55 (Jul 5, 2008)

I think you can do this in GA as well.

If you do happen to get a PE w/o an engineering degree there would be no way for you to get comity with another state. (Unless it's either GA or NY....)


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## Sschell (Jul 5, 2008)

I believe in CA the requirement is written that you need X number of years experience to take the test, a 4 year non-accredited degree counts for Y of those years and an accredited degree counts for Z of those years... I don't remember with out looking what the actual X,Y and Z values are.


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## Dexman1349 (Jul 6, 2008)

The Dude said:


> I believe in CA the requirement is written that you need X number of years experience to take the test, a 4 year non-accredited degree counts for Y of those years and an accredited degree counts for Z of those years... I don't remember with out looking what the actual X,Y and Z values are.



I think that's pretty standard. That's how it's written in the CO laws.

As far as getting your license transferred to other states once you obtain it without a degree, you would need to meet that particular state's requirements for an "experience only" license. I believe most states have this available as a way to grandfather in alot of engineers back before there were alot of engineering college programs.


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## Sschell (Jul 6, 2008)

here's a question:

can you be an engineer with out a degree?

4 year degree?

2 year degree?

ass load of expierence?

what defines one as an engineer?


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## mech engineer (Jul 6, 2008)

The Dude said:


> here's a question:
> can you be an engineer with out a degree?
> 
> 4 year degree?
> ...


Technically, if you have a license from any state you can legally call yourself an engineer in that state - regardless of your educational background. However, when you apply for a license in another state based on the lisence you already have there are two ways to do it:

1. Apply directly by filling out the application specific to that state and showing that you meet all the requirements. In this case, if the state allows to obtain the 'experience only' license you are fine and just document that experience

2. Creacting an NCEES record which is accepted universally by almost all the state

Now, to create an NCEES record one MUST have an ABET college degree, otherwise the record cannot be established. Therefore, for 'experience only' folks the path thru the NCEES record is blocked. And at the same time some states mandate to all the applicants to establish an NCEES record as a part of the application process (I know KY does it), so some states will not except 'experience only applications' at all.


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## Tark62 (Jul 6, 2008)

In California, you can qualify for the PE exam with six years of acceptable work experience, with or without an engineering degree. The number of people who actually qualify as PEs without engineering degrees is quite small, but I've met two people who have done it. One had a 2-year degree in Engineering Technology, and one was a PhD scientist. They both seemed capable of handling the engineering issues that came their way.

A California PE without an engineering degree would have trouble getting licensed by reciprocity in other states. Most states have tougher education requirements, in accordance with the NCEES "Model Law".

In California, you can't use the regulated title of "civil engineer" unless you are a Civil PE. So a licensed Civil PE (even without an engineering degree) can claim the title of "civil engineer", but an unlicensed person (even with an accredited civil degree) cannot. Under California law, the PE trumps the degree as a professional qualification.

Some states, including California, still allow people to qualify for the State Bar Exam by "apprenticeship" (i.e., work experience), without ever going to law school. So this route is not unique to engineering. One of the current State Supreme Court Justices in Vermont qualified for the Bar by work experience, and never attended law school.


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## Road Guy (Jul 7, 2008)

Ga does somethig similar, I know of one person who after being out of school for 20+ years took the EIT &amp; PE and passed them. I really dont know why Georgia allows it, there was a move to change it in the legislature a few years ago but the bill got killed. I am sure some politician had a relative who dropped out of college and wants to be able to sit for the exam or something.

Maybe we can be like nurses where you can be an RN and not have a bachelor’s degree, all the ones that do refer to themselves as RN-BSN. So maybe we can have PE-BCE on our cards to distinguish ourselves from those who don’t have one, then the people with masters degree’s will want to do the same (note the heavy intended sarcasm)

All in all you can be a PE and still be a dumbass ( I know several) so I dont know how big a deal it truly is to be honest. .02


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## NCcarguy (Jul 7, 2008)

I have heard RUMORS that you can become a PE in NC with 20 years of experience! and you don't have to take the EI exam first!

I guess I understand why some would find this as a negative, but honestly, is there something that you learn in a class for 4 years that you can't learn in 20 years of experience.

I had to take the same test that everyone else took, I had to study for the same material, I have to be able to talk about the same things, so even though I would never try to cheapen the education that most of you got, I don't know if it's a magic formula for engineering intelligence.

I also would tell any kid growing up today....DO NOT try to do what I did! Honestly, It was a HELL that I lived for almost 5 years.....


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## sehad (Jul 8, 2008)

All getting a PE does is say that you can study and pass a test. Even though it is a hard test. Some people can take a book and teach themselves how to do something. I mean, whate exactly do you do in college? You get a book and a professor teaches you how to read and apply the book. That simple. Is there any design that we do that is simply out of our heads? No, everything is by a code or by means of experience. I disagree with Road Guy somewhat. I don't think anyone can be a dumbass and get a PE, however....one that has the common sense of a turnip can get a PE and be about as useful as one.

It's like this to me. Getting a PE means you're smart and can pass a test. Being an effective PE means being able to apply your knowledge and skills in the real world for the better. I know a lot that cannot do the latter.

In La, you can get a PE without schooling but the experience requirement is pretty tough. Plus you have to get 3 registered PEs to write a letter saying that you are competent in engineering and then it goes before the board for their review. It's really not that easy and I can't think of anyone that has ever done it.

Oh, several years ago in La they made a deal that someone with so many years of construction experience could by a Project Engineer's license for $1. Talk about a slap in the face!



> I guess I understand why some would find this as a negative, but honestly, is there something that you learn in a class for 4 years that you can't learn in 20 years of experience.


I guess getting taught by someone that knows in detail everything that you will encounter compared to someone that has learned by mistakes that they have made or of others is the main difference I see. College taught me to be proactive in decisions and to always look for problems before they come up and how to get the resources to do so. Experience(just my opinion) teaches you how to be reactive and fix problems when they occur. Both get the final results wanted, the second can be more costly to the owner.

It's one thing to know how to do something, it's another thing totally to know why. As long as someone that has the experience has been taught by an engineer, I see no problem with it. Would I feel cheated somewhat that I had to get the schooling and they didn't? Probably, but in the end it's how effective you are that makes you a good engineer, not how much useless crap you know.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 8, 2008)

sehad said:


> All getting a PE does is say that you can study and pass a test.


Bubkus! A PE requires a balance of education, experience, and exam. Some states choose to allow experience to overcome shortages in education or exam. By and far, most people registered are the traditional balance (ABET-accredited education, 4 years of experience (give or take a few years), and FE/EIT and PE exam.


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## Road Guy (Jul 8, 2008)

if you think about it, how many of our proffessors actually had any real experience outside of academia?

Most of mine were phd's who had probably done everything in the lab but had no "real" experience. We should beg the question why does ncees (or our state boards) allow professors to use teaching experience as experience and allow them to sit for the exam?


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## Dexman1349 (Jul 8, 2008)

Road Guy said:


> if you think about it, how many of our proffessors actually had any real experience outside of academia?
> Most of mine were phd's who had probably done everything in the lab but had no "real" experience. We should beg the question why does ncees (or our state boards) allow professors to use teaching experience as experience and allow them to sit for the exam?


Because the way the CO board sees it, a PE is a measure of competence. You would hope that your professors knew at least a little about what they were teaching (or at least be able to pick it up while they taught).

When the board reviews your application, they look at several things (in order of importance):

1)Quantity and quality of experience (CO looks especially for an "increasing level of responsibilty and engineering duties" So if you've done nothing but quantity take-offs for 10 years they won't take your application seriously and may throw out some or all of the experience)

2)How your references reflect on your experience (you can have months / years thrown out because your reference's write-up may not agree with yours)

3a)The schooling you received (bachelors vs masters vs phd, ABET accrediation, years attended)

3b)And the exams. Obviously the EIT -&gt; PE route is the quickest, but you can become a PE without either depending on the rest of your application.

I think the real measure of an engineer should be his (or her) ethics. Only you know what your expertise is in so you should practice accordinly. In CO a PE is identical for all engineers (Mechanicals, electricals, structurals, environmentals, etc) so technically I could stamp the plans for a Nuclear power plant and disposal site if I wanted. I have no idea what is requiered to do it, so I won't. I would certainly hope that a professor who has never set foot outside of academia with a PE would not be stamping those same powerplant plans if he teaches water resources.


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## GT ME (Jul 8, 2008)

I asked the question "why does NCEES ask PE candidates before taking the PE exam what school he/she graduates from" and was told that PE designations such as EE, ChE, ME, &amp; CE require accredited degrees to be eligible to take the exam, regardless of whether state boards allow you to do so.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 8, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I asked the question "why does NCEES ask PE candidates before taking the PE exam what school he/she graduates from" and was told that PE designations such as EE, ChE, ME, &amp; CE require accredited degrees to be eligible to take the exam, regardless of whether state boards allow you to do so.


To whom (or who - I always get those confused) did you ask?


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## GT ME (Jul 8, 2008)

It was either ELSES or NCEES -- don't remember.



Mike in Gastonia said:


> To whom (or who - I always get those confused) did you ask?


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## Sschell (Jul 8, 2008)

In Mechanical I know several people who's job title is Engineer (even Chief Engineer) or who call themselves engineers who have no degree, or a 2 year degree (and def. no PE)


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## NC-mike (Jul 8, 2008)

A colleague of mine recently told me that by the year 2015 the NCEES will have an additional educational requirment. 30 credit hours will have to be earned before giving approval to sit for the exam. 30 hours is essentially a master degree but I believe the NCEES is setting something similar to how states currently require PDH credits through approved vendors.


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## benbo (Jul 8, 2008)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> To whom (or who - I always get those confused) did you ask?


I think you are correct. Maybe you know this trick.

Answer the question, and if you would use "him" in the answer use "whom" in the question.

If you would use "he" in the answer use "who" in the question.

*Whom* did you ask? I asked *him.* as opposed to I asked _he._

*Who* told you that? *He* told me that as opposed to _Him_ told me that.


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## Sschell (Jul 8, 2008)

^never heard that before... thats good!


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## benbo (Jul 8, 2008)

The Dude said:


> ^never heard that before... thats good!


As an engineer who has to write more than any engineer should, they sent me to a grammar class. THey taught us all sorts of hints like that. Only problem is I almost never remember to actually use them.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 8, 2008)

NC-mike said:


> A colleague of mine recently told me that by the year 2015 the NCEES will have an additional educational requirment. 30 credit hours will have to be earned before giving approval to sit for the exam. 30 hours is essentially a master degree but I believe the NCEES is setting something similar to how states currently require PDH credits through approved vendors.


There is a thread regarding that 30 additional hours already on the forum. It is all subject to individual states agreeing, just like the PDH requirement, not all states require them.


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## ROBIAMEIT (Jul 9, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Bubkus! A PE requires a balance of education, experience, and exam. Some states choose to allow experience to overcome shortages in education or exam. By and far, most people registered are the traditional balance (ABET-accredited education, 4 years of experience (give or take a few years), and FE/EIT and PE exam.


BUBKUS back atcha!! . . . . the PE requires you to figure tricky questions that are usually well out of the range of a typical days work. . . . and even some questions that have NOTHING to do with what an engineer does all day long!! If you are a "Test Taker" and can regurgitate then you'll do just fine . . . . but the exam has NOTHING to do with what kind of Engineer you are.

and NO you DONT HAVE TO HAVE EVEN GRADUATED FROM KINDERGARTEN to take this exam.

Maryland lets you do it on experience alone . . . .not even an FE Exam!!!


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## IlPadrino (Jul 9, 2008)

ROBIAMEIT said:


> BUBKUS back atcha!! . . . . the PE requires you to figure tricky questions that are usually well out of the range of a typical days work. . . . and even some questions that have NOTHING to do with what an engineer does all day long!! If you are a "Test Taker" and can regurgitate then you'll do just fine . . . . but the exam has NOTHING to do with what kind of Engineer you are.
> and NO you DONT HAVE TO HAVE EVEN GRADUATED FROM KINDERGARTEN to take this exam.
> 
> Maryland lets you do it on experience alone . . . .not even an FE Exam!!!


No need to yell... I can read you just fine. I know you're blowing smoke when you write "the PE requires you to figure tricky questions...". I'm sure you meant the PE *exam*. I don't disagree with much of what you wrote about the exam, except for "the exam has NOTHING to do with what kind of Engineer you are". Were it so, the NCEES would be an even bigger farce than most anyone believes.

Regarding your statements about kindergarten, Maryland, and experience, please reread what I wrote (quoted here for your convenience: "By and far, most people registered are the traditional balance (ABET-accredited education, 4 years of experience (give or take a few years), and FE/EIT and PE exam.")


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 9, 2008)

GT ME said:


> It was either ELSES or NCEES -- don't remember.


I would be interested in seeing proof of that if you have it. To my knowledge the states determine who can sit for the exam, not NCEES or ELSES. Now it may be that ELSES is approving applications for a state they work for.

Now to be a Model Law Engineer it does have to be from an acredited school I do believe. Is that what you are referring to?


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 9, 2008)

benbo said:


> I think you are correct. Maybe you know this trick.Answer the question, and if you would use "him" in the answer use "whom" in the question.
> 
> If you would use "he" in the answer use "who" in the question.
> 
> ...


Nice! Thanks.

Oscar had a heap of apples.

*O*scar *h*ad

OH = Opposite/Hypotenuse = Sine

*a* *h*eap

AH = Adjacent/Hypotenuse = cosine

*o*f *a*pples.

OA = Opposite/Adjacent = tangent

HOMES for the 5 Great lakes

*H*uron/*O*ntario/*M*ichigan/*E*rie/*S*uperior

There's my contribution!


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## Casey (Jul 9, 2008)

In high school we were taught about a great native indian chief that loved trigonometry

SOH-CAH-TOA

*s*ine = *O*pp/*H*yp

*c*osine = *A*djacent/*H*yp

*t*an = *O*pp/*A*djacent

I still use that one today.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 9, 2008)

Casey said:


> In high school we were taught about a great native indian chief that loved trigonometry
> SOH-CAH-TOA
> 
> *s*ine = *O*pp/*H*yp
> ...


That's the way I learned it too!


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## sehad (Jul 9, 2008)

^^ditto to the Indian


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 9, 2008)

Well, back in the old days before electricity, we learned the "Oscar had a heap of apples" way.......


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## IlPadrino (Jul 9, 2008)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Well, back in the old days before electricity, we learned the "Oscar had a heap of apples" way.......


It was oscar for me...


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## Dexman1349 (Jul 9, 2008)

I just learned it. It took just as much work to learn a catchy phrase as it did to learn the actual content.

I've never been much on phrases when it comes to learning things.


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## Trashman (Jul 9, 2008)

Some Old Horse, Caught Another Horse, Taking Oats Away

Thank Mr. Sullivan


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## GT ME (Jul 9, 2008)

I wouldn't read too much into it, especially since it was probably a call center employee, or maybe a comity issue.

I would feel sorry for any engineer with less than the model credentials and was taken to court...

It would be a bloodbath at the federal level not only for the engineer but also for the state for sanctioning less than ideal candidates.

Accredation is an absolute must at the federal level.



Mike in Gastonia said:


> I would be interested in seeing proof of that if you have it. To my knowledge the states determine who can sit for the exam, not NCEES or ELSES. Now it may be that ELSES is approving applications for a state they work for.
> Now to be a Model Law Engineer it does have to be from an acredited school I do believe. Is that what you are referring to?


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## GT ME (Jul 9, 2008)

I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.

It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.

But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, &amp; NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.

Only a handful of engineers in the country can boast that -- if any.

And the best is yet to come.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 9, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.
> It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.
> 
> But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, &amp; NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.
> ...



Damn...... How do you handle the pressure?


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## engineergurl (Jul 9, 2008)

silly, they were talking about me...


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## IlPadrino (Jul 10, 2008)

GT ME said:


> It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. .
> 
> .
> 
> ...


If you're interested in moving to Florida, I hear there's some challenging work in the stormwater and real-estate business. A person of your caliber would be a great fit for YKW - though I'm not sure the state is big enough for both of your egos. On second thought, maybe telecommuting would be better.


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## MEPE2B (Jul 10, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.
> It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.
> 
> But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, &amp; NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.
> ...


I can't see the expression on your face, so I can't tell if you are serious...


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## Sschell (Jul 10, 2008)

I think hes serious.


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## BluSkyy (Jul 10, 2008)

I don't have much use for people that think one way or the other is superior. In my experience people are superior at what they do...their path to where they are today is evidence of their ability and success, not the cause. I distrust someone who says "I have a degree in this so I know better than you" just as much as I distrust someone who says "I have done this forever so I know better than you."


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## sehad (Jul 10, 2008)

BluSkyy said:


> I don't have much use for people that think one way or the other is superior. In my experience people are superior at what they do...their path to where they are today is evidence of their ability and success, not the cause. I distrust someone who says "I have a degree in this so I know better than you" just as much as I distrust someone who says "I have done this forever so I know better than you."


amen


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## hrun (Jul 10, 2008)

Casey said:


> In high school we were taught about a great native indian chief that loved trigonometry
> SOH-CAH-TOA
> 
> *s*ine = *O*pp/*H*yp
> ...


Me too! to the indian chief.


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## ramicoce (Jul 15, 2008)

Right... the indian chief. Only, he didn't know anything about trig. In fact, he hated math and despised his parents for naming him that. He just liked to soak his toes in the water.


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## ROBIAMEIT (Jul 16, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> No need to yell... I can read you just fine. I know you're blowing smoke when you write "the PE requires you to figure tricky questions...". I'm sure you meant the PE *exam*. I don't disagree with much of what you wrote about the exam, except for "the exam has NOTHING to do with what kind of Engineer you are". Were it so, the NCEES would be an even bigger farce than most anyone believes.


I'm sorry i yelled. I was using the CAPS to TRY to covey emotion. It happens. I was NOT blowing smoke when i made that statement . . . . "the PE requires. . . ." i was refering to the Exam. thats what the discussion was about. And i stand by my statement about the kind of Engineer you are. I have seen children pass the PE Exam just 4 years out of college, because theyre good test takers and are fresh out of school. The guys who have been around for years are MUCH better engineers than they are. PERIOD. They just can't seem to pass some silly exam. Most of the questions have NOTHING to do with the day to day tasks of a typical engineer - at least in my field. Its all about book learning. In fact, the last exam i tried to pass had questions on it that werent even topics in 2 or three of the reference books i had with me that specific topic. How in the name of all thats good can that be any kind of indication of the kind of engineer you are.?????



IlPadrino said:


> Regarding your statements about kindergarten, Maryland, and experience, please reread what I wrote (quoted here for your convenience: "By and far, most people registered are the traditional balance (ABET-accredited education, 4 years of experience (give or take a few years), and FE/EIT and PE exam.")


i read your response. The topic of this thread is "Is it true that you don't have to be an engineer in some states to be a PE?"

my response was YES. infact . . . im MD you dont even have to have a H.S. Diploma . . . i was citing a specific example and to emphasizing the farce the P.E. Exam has become.


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## chaosiscash (Jul 16, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.
> It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.
> 
> But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, &amp; NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.
> ...


^^ I love this guy. This stuff just cracks me up.


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## Dark Knight (Jul 16, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.
> It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.
> 
> But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, &amp; NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.
> ...


I know of a firm in Orlando, the finest one there, that can use your abilities. If you are interested let me know. I am sure you are going to love the owner and the associates.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 16, 2008)

ROBIAMEIT said:


> I'm sorry i yelled. I was using the CAPS to TRY to covey emotion. It happens. I was NOT blowing smoke when i made that statement . . . . "the PE requires. . . ." i was refering to the Exam. thats what the discussion was about. And i stand by my statement about the kind of Engineer you are. I have seen children pass the PE Exam just 4 years out of college, because theyre good test takers and are fresh out of school. The guys who have been around for years are MUCH better engineers than they are. PERIOD. They just can't seem to pass some silly exam. Most of the questions have NOTHING to do with the day to day tasks of a typical engineer - at least in my field. Its all about book learning. In fact, the last exam i tried to pass had questions on it that werent even topics in 2 or three of the reference books i had with me that specific topic. How in the name of all thats good can that be any kind of indication of the kind of engineer you are.?????
> i read your response. The topic of this thread is "Is it true that you don't have to be an engineer in some states to be a PE?"
> 
> my response was YES. infact . . . im MD you dont even have to have a H.S. Diploma . . . i was citing a specific example and to emphasizing the farce the P.E. Exam has become.


My misunderstanding... I didn't think your text, just below a quote from me, was more directed to the title of the thread than my response.

You've clearly got an axe to grind regarding the PE exam... probably best to let the scabs heal... before I rub salt in the wound. How's that for lots of metaphors?!?


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 17, 2008)

What would be nice is a succinct, concise, easy-to-grasp table that displays, by state, the requirement(s) for submitting an application to take the PE Exam.

As I've stated on another forum, despite having years of experience in exempt industries, participation in professional organizations such as IEEE, ACM, and ASEE, the fact that I have not worked under a licensed PE in my specific discipline, is an entry barrier to taking the PE in the state that I reside in. Fact is, my work experience in industry exempt areas have been across several states, not just a single one.

The table that I refer to would enable someone like me to figure out what state to apply for taking the PE Exam and then arranging for lodging, not to mention, shipping my reference materials for use on the PE Exam.

Right now I am going through the onerous task of looking up each State Board through NCEES and listing the details for each state.


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## Casey (Jul 17, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> The table that I refer to would enable someone like me to figure out what state to apply for taking the PE Exam and then arranging for lodging, not to mention, shipping my reference materials for use on the PE Exam.


You can also include a note for states that allow proctoring of exams.

ELSES tells you here:

http://www.els-examreg.org/registration.php


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## benbo (Jul 17, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> What would be nice is a succinct, concise, easy-to-grasp table that displays, by state, the requirement(s) for submitting an application to take the PE Exam.
> As I've stated on another forum, despite having years of experience in exempt industries, participation in professional organizations such as IEEE, ACM, and ASEE, the fact that I have not worked under a licensed PE in my specific discipline, is an entry barrier to taking the PE in the state that I reside in. Fact is, my work experience in industry exempt areas have been across several states, not just a single one.
> 
> The table that I refer to would enable someone like me to figure out what state to apply for taking the PE Exam and then arranging for lodging, not to mention, shipping my reference materials for use on the PE Exam.
> ...


I've got to ask you why you would be interested in taking the exam when you will not be able to get licensed in your state? Are you just taking it for personal gratification? In that case I think California would be good because they allow for an industry exemption. If you actually want to practice somewhere, I would suggest taking it in the state you want to practice.

Here's the reference you need for cali

http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf

As you can see, NPER (No PE Required)


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## Sschell (Jul 17, 2008)

cali is the only state that has industry exemption? is that just in electrical?

I thought all states had mechanical industry exemptions.


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## benbo (Jul 17, 2008)

The Dude said:


> cali is the only state that has industry exemption? is that just in electrical?
> I thought all states had mechanical industry exemptions.


Actually I don't know anything about anywhere else. I only know about Cali. Apparently Hawaii doesn't (where this person is from) or I don't think there would be any issue.

But you can get by documenting fewer years exp. in Cali also.


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## Dleg (Jul 17, 2008)

Here is the NCEES survey results - you have to choose the applicable subject (probaly PE licensing requirements), and then from there you can view all state's requirements for dozens of PE licensing questions you might have.

And here are the same results in a (maybe) easier to digest format, pretty close to the "table" you request.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 18, 2008)

benbo said:


> I've got to ask you why you would be interested in taking the exam when you will not be able to get licensed in your state? Are you just taking it for personal gratification? In that case I think California would be good because they allow for an industry exemption. If you actually want to practice somewhere, I would suggest taking it in the state you want to practice.
> Here's the reference you need for cali
> 
> http://www.pels.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf
> ...


I am interested in taking the exam since it is required to be licensed in any state; including the one that I reside in currently. A PE license is the requirement for State/City/Municipal jobs that are titled Engineer.

Yes, the personal gratification of also passing it is another reason. I tried the the NCEES Sample Exam first before any review, without resorting to any reference material. The only questions that stumped me were the ones relating to the NEC Code (e.g., questions related to grounding). However, I got almost all of those right since I've done electrical wiring of my own home and had to resort to the NEC Code (one of the reasons that I already possessed the NEC 2002 Code and Handbook). More importantly, the Computers depth questions are a lot easier than the Cisco certification exam questions. (I hope that NCEES doesn't make the Computers section harder simply because of this statement. Unlike engineering where one has reference material, the Cisco certified engineer has to make changes to operating equipment "on-the-fly"; can't go look it up in some reference book).

My "beef" with the PE Exam is the requirement that the qualifying work experience be under a licensed engineer in the specific discipline. This means that all of my work experience in exempt industries under Ph. Ds, IEEE Fellows/Life Fellows, etc. are for naught in obtaining a PE license since these supervisors aren't licensed PEs. Thus I am not qualified to be an Engineer in any State/City/Municipal government since I do not have qualifying work experience under a licensed PE. However, I am quite qualified to design and build medical devices, VLSI circuits, WMDs, satellites, submarines, precision guidance systems, real-time software systems, etc. All of this work experience is useless in applying for the PE Exam.

Then there are the software engineering related questions in the Computer Depth area. Almost all of the program managers or supervisors that were above me were not degreed engineers nor did they possess computer science degrees. The people that I supervised that performed software engineering or even programming --- only 2 were EEs in my entire career.

I personally think the PE Exam is much more achievable (i.e., passable) than the FE Exam since it is in a discipline that I have experience and thus is in my comfort zone. Others on this forum/board may disagree (nice part about a democracy) that the PE Exam is easier than the FE Exam; however, my work experience in the exempt industries actually had me utilize the Computers, Power, and Electronics/Communications/Control areas. When I first attempted the FE Sample Exam, I think I got only 5 questions right. Thus, my HAPPINESS and sense of relief when I received the results stating that I had passed the FE Exam on my first attempt.

I wrote to my State Board and told them that I am extremely interested in the October 2008 PE Exam since it is the last one that will actually test one's knowledge across a breadth of Electrical Engineering knowledge. I always thought the characteristic of a good engineer was the creative application of Electrical Engineering knowledge across the spectrum.

Another obvious "hole" in the PE Exam and licensing process is the fact that no "credit" is given for continuing education or participation in professional societies (e.g., IEEE, ACM, CMG, ASEE). Again, my experience in the exempt industries (IlPadrino may want to comment on this) is that an engineer had to take continuing education courses. Thus, I was able to take EECS graduate courses, Image Processing, and Digital Signal Processing courses (at that time companies paid for such as long as we got some type of certificate or passing grade --- you can see I am dating myself). On the software engineering side, I taught as an Adjunct Faculty member; another way to keep up one's engineering skills and knowledge. Besides ancient Fortran, Z80, 808X, C, C++, and Java, I gained DB knowledge (Oracle/Sybase/Ingres), RTOS, and X-Windows skills. The annual (in one company semi-annual) performance reviews had blocks for identifying continuing education achieved and future continuing education courses. Of course I am dinosaur since the larger companies also had in-house engineering courses in my heyday. The ones I took were taught by Ph.D degreed engineers who also were Adjunct Faculty or had taught university engineering courses, but were now corporate employees. I learned about about Radars, ELINT, SIGINT, communications theory this way.

I realize that NCEES is trying to get the various states to require that licensed PEs now take continuing education courses but such credit should also be taken into account for those who want to take the PE Exam. While I had not used Bode plots directly in my work experience in eons, I was able to recall what it was about because of the continuing education courses that I took. None of the licensed PEs that I know in my state have taken any continuing education courses. Not that my state offers much in this area of knowledge.

Now that I've been exposed to the different sides of engineering (FE Exam), I want to attempt the PE Exam in Mechanical and Environmental Engineering disciplines in the future. I also would be interested in some option to take the different Depth exams in the Electrical discipline (this my personal gratification side). Besides, based on the comments that are posted at this board, it may be the only way to judge where one's weakness is.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 18, 2008)

Dleg said:


> Here is the NCEES survey results - you have to choose the applicable subject (probaly PE licensing requirements), and then from there you can view all state's requirements for dozens of PE licensing questions you might have.
> And here are the same results in a (maybe) easier to digest format, pretty close to the "table" you request.


Thank you. It still seems user-unfriendly in presentation.. I did note that Cali requires 2 years of experience and references.

Someone had mentioned Oregon and Colorado earlier.


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## benbo (Jul 18, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> I am interested in taking the exam since it is required to be licensed in any state; including the one that I reside in currently. A PE license is the requirement for State/City/Municipal jobs that are titled Engineer.


I'm sure you're aware that you still won't be able to be licensed in the state where you live. You will have to meet their experience requirements. But since you plan to take multiple PE exams it sort of seems like you are just the sort of person who likes taking tests - which is fine - so it doesn't really matter.

Of course you will have to document additional experience that doesn't overlap for each of these exams. I don't know if you can take the mechanical exam and get licensed in mechanical without any mechanical experience. Maybe your experiecne includes some mechanical work. But IMO Passing that test should not be enough for someone to actually get licensed to fo mechanical work. But who knows?


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## benbo (Jul 18, 2008)

Just to clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking these exams just to "test your mettle." But there is a difference between taking the exam and getting a license. I also enjoy taking exams (for some strange reason) although I doubt I would retake any PE exams. I plan to take the CRE exam next year just for the heck of it. I guess I just assumed from your indignation and despondency over not being able to take the test that you were some desperate fellow who was unemployed and unable to work in your chosen profession because of some "catch-22".

A PE is different than a CISCO cert or a CRE, because it implies a legal responsibility and culpability. I don't believe there is a process to revoke your CISCO cert if you make a network mistake. Also, I believe you can get the CISCO cert with no experience - that is probably why the test is harder.

The PE relies on education / experience and exam. My coworker is licensed in mechanical, civil and metallurgical. But he has education and experience in all those areas. I don't think there is any way you should trust someone to design a safety critical system if all you knew about them was that they passed the PE test. The test is just one stop gap. That is probably why they require PEs in many states for references - if they fudge a reference they concievably put their own license at risk.

If NCEES was smart they would allow people to take the tests for a fee "just for the heck of it." Then the results would expire in X amount of time. If the person just wanted to see if they could pass, no harm done. If they actually wanted a license they would have that amount of time to get the requisite experience. Maybe some states already do this.

By the way, because it seems like a major part of your desire to take the test is the personal satisfaction angle, you may want to look into taking it in Texas or Virginia. I'm not sure what their requirements are, but they still give out scores. I wouldn't have minded seeing my own score.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 18, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> Someone had mentioned Oregon and Colorado earlier.


Here's Oregon:



```
820-010-0230
Information to be Furnished by Professional Engineer Applicants
(1) Applicants for admission to examination for registration as professional engineers will be required to submit
evidence to show qualification of eligibility consisting of current enrollment as an EI meeting the requirements of the
State of Oregon at the time of enrollment and the following practice experience:
(a) Applicants qualified under OAR 820-010-0225(3)(a), (3)(d), or (3)(f) shall complete four or more years of active
practice in engineering work in addition to the requirements for admission to examination for enrollment as an EI.
Applicants will be allowed to submit as qualifying work experience that work experience obtained based on
employment up to the date of the PE examination;
(b) Applicants qualified under OAR 820-010-0225(3)(b), (3)(c) or (3)(e) shall complete six or more years of active
practice in engineering work in addition to the requirements for admission to examination for enrollment as an EI. The
six years of active practice year requirement may be reduced to four years provided that the applicant completes at
least 21 semester/32 quarter hours in a curriculum including: Differential Equations, Physics, Statistics, Statics,
Dynamics, Thermodynamics, Fluid Mechanics, Electrical Fundamentals and Strength of Materials.
(2) Active practice in engineering work shall be in the applicant's area of competence and under the supervision and
control of a licensed engineer or be active practice in engineering satisfactory to the Board.
(3) Graduation from a post-baccalaureate degree program in engineering at a college or university that has an EAC of
ABET accredited undergraduate degree program in the same field as the post-baccalaureate degree program may be
substituted for one year of the four years of active practice required by this rule so long as the degree was not the basis
for admission to the fundamental examination under OAR 820-010-0225(3)(d).
(4) Experience as a full-time assistant professor, or above, in a Board approved engineering curriculum, may be
considered at the discretion of the Board as qualifying experience.
Stat. Auth.: ORS 670.310 &amp; 672.255
Stats. Implemented: ORS 672.002 - 672.325
Hist.: EE 13, f. 3-29-72, ef. 4-15-72; EE 20, f. &amp; ef. 12-15-77; EE 1-1995, f. 8-15-95, cert. ef. 9-1-95; BEELS 1-1998,
f. &amp; cert. ef. 2-10-98; BEELS 1-2001, f. &amp; cert. ef. 5-22-01; BEELS 1-2002, f. &amp; cert. ef. 3-13-02; BEELS
```




```
820-010-0255
References
(1) Engineering, land surveyor, and photogrammetrist applicants and those engineering and land surveying intern
applicants requesting admission to the examination on the basis of experience or a combination of education and
experience must supply to their references special forms provided by the Board for this purpose. Each reference must
have knowledge of the applicant's work for a period of at least one year. A minimum of five references is required by
the Board and at least three of the five references must be registrants in the field of practice in which the applicant
seeks to be registered. The signature and seal of the reference, if licensed, must appear on the returned form.
Qualifying experience accrued by the applicant must be included in the application and all qualifying experience shall
be certified by the person supervising the work as meeting the definition of engineering work, land surveying work or
photogrammetric work as defined in OAR 820-010-0010. The Board may, for good cause upon written application,
reduce the number of references required.
(2) Engineering, land surveyor, and photogrammetrist applicants requesting registration on the basis of comity or
examination by another jurisdiction must supply to their references special forms provided by the Board for this
purpose. Each reference must have knowledge of the applicant's work for a period of at least one year. A minimum of
Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying_820_010 http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_800/OAR_820/820_010.html
12 of 28 5/3/2007 2:05 PM
five references is required by the Board and at least three of the five references must be registrants in the field of
practice in which the applicant seeks to be registered. The signature and seal of the reference, if licensed, must appear
on the returned form. Qualifying experience accrued by the applicant must be included in the application and all
qualifying experience shall be certified by the person supervising the work as meeting the definition of engineering
work, land surveying work or photogrammetric work as defined in OAR 820-010-0010. The Board may, for good
cause upon written application, reduce the number of references required.
Stat. Auth.: ORS 670.310 &amp; 672.255
Stats. Implemented: ORS 672.002 - 672.325
Hist.: EE 13, f. 3-29-72, ef. 4-15-72; EE 20, f. &amp; ef. 12-15-77; EE 1-1992, f. &amp; cert. ef. 2-3-92; EE 1-1995, f. 8-15-95,
cert. ef. 9-1-95; BEELS 1-1998, f. &amp; cert. ef. 2-10-98; BEELS 1-2001, f. &amp; cert. ef. 5-22-01; BEELS 6-2005, f. &amp;
cert. ef. 12-13-05; BEELS 2-2006, f. &amp; cert. ef. 11-21-06
```


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## TXengrChickPE (Jul 18, 2008)

benbo said:


> By the way, because it seems like a major part of your desire to take the test is the personal satisfaction angle, you may want to look into taking it in Texas or Virginia. I'm not sure what their requirements are, but they still give out scores. I wouldn't have minded seeing my own score.


Can't do it in Texas. Yes, we get our scores... but the license application is tedious and must be approved before you can take the exam, and you need three PE references.


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## gymrat1279 PE (Jul 18, 2008)

In MI, all you have to do is sign a statement saying you have the required education and experience before you take the exam. The application and references come after you pass. So you could take it just for fun, but you wouldn't get a score.

You have to send your transcripts to ELSES too... similar to Arizona below.


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## Casey (Jul 18, 2008)

Arizona lets you apply directly to ELSES for the PE exam. All you need to do is send in your university transcripts. And I believe you need a minimum of 2 years experience (you'll need a total of four years before you get your license though).


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## GT ME (Jul 18, 2008)

LOL -- I live in GA &amp; and own a state certified contracting business in Florida.

:smileyballs:



IlPadrino said:


> If you're interested in moving to Florida, I hear there's some challenging work in the stormwater and real-estate business. A person of your caliber would be a great fit for YKW - though I'm not sure the state is big enough for both of your egos. On second thought, maybe telecommuting would be better.


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## GT ME (Jul 18, 2008)

My engineering credentials are superior since my engineering was build on a solid foundation, unlike the preponderance of book engineers.

As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation &amp; a background that only a few in the country posess.

It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.

:smileyballs:



BluSkyy said:


> I don't have much use for people that think one way or the other is superior. In my experience people are superior at what they do...their path to where they are today is evidence of their ability and success, not the cause. I distrust someone who says "I have a degree in this so I know better than you" just as much as I distrust someone who says "I have done this forever so I know better than you."


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## GT ME (Jul 18, 2008)

Problem is I work as a mgmt consultant for a Fortune 10 firm while operating a sucessfull engineering &amp; contracting firm in Florida.

I would require at least 250k &amp; partnership status to even consider -- without giving up my business.

:smileyballs:



Dark Knight said:


> I know of a firm in Orlando, the finest one there, that can use your abilities. If you are interested let me know. I am sure you are going to love the owner and the associates.


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## Dark Knight (Jul 18, 2008)

It would be interesting. Sray is right when he says that your egos are too big to be together.

In case you decide to do it let me know. I will be ready with bags of popcorn waiting for the story to develop.


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## rwbailey21 (Jul 19, 2008)

GT ME said:


> My engineering credentials are superior since my engineering was build on a solid foundation, unlike the preponderance of book engineers.


Word of the Day - Preponderance

Definition - superiority in weight, force, importance, or influence.

This statement reminded me of a statement made by "Iron" Mike Tyson.

"... _My style is impetuous. My defense is impregnable, and I'm just ferocious_..."



GT ME said:


> As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation &amp; a background that only a few in the country posess.


I hate disappoint you, but I did not come from apes. I came from a superior race of hands-on engineers that later became book smart.



GT ME said:


> It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.
> :smileyballs:


Then let me officially welcome you to the club, fellow hands on engineer that later became book smart.


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## MEPE2B (Jul 19, 2008)

GT ME said:


> My engineering credentials are superior since my engineering was build on a solid foundation, unlike the preponderance of book engineers.
> As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation &amp; a background that only a few in the country posess.
> 
> It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.
> ...


I've known a number of engineers over the years that came up from the floor. Many of them had a solid feel for what is practical that gave them an advantage over engineers with a book-only type of leaning.

However, a few of them also had a deep-seeded resentment, and somewhat of an inferiority complex based on the years they had spent working for people that they consider inferior to themselves. It just burned them up inside for all those years that those book-smart punk engineers had rank over them based on a piece of paper they themselves lacked. Not surprising that that when they finally got their own piece of paper that they would take license to crow loudly about their own accomplishments. The engineers in this category usually mellow out after they get about 5 years of post-graduate experience, unless they have deep-down problems stemming from never being good enough in Daddy's eyes.


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## EM_PS (Jul 19, 2008)

GT ME said:


> As far as superior -- I came from the apes just like you -- I, however, probably have superior motivation &amp; a background that only a few in the country posess.It's sort of like building a building without a solid foundation -- I have it, and very few engineers do.


I know your resp was directed at someone else, but felt compelled to reply on behalf of that part of mankind that most assuredly did not "come from apes" - seriously cheetah, get over yourself.



MEPE2B said:


> I've known a number of engineers over the years that came up from the floor. Many of them had a solid feel for what is practical that gave them an advantage over engineers with a book-only type of leaning.
> However, a few of them also had a deep-seeded resentment, and somewhat of an inferiority complex based on the years they had spent working for people that they consider inferior to themselves. It just burned them up inside for all those years that those book-smart punk engineers had rank over them based on a piece of paper they themselves lacked. Not surprising that that when they finally got their own piece of paper that they would take license to crow loudly about their own accomplishments. The engineers in this category usually mellow out after they get about 5 years of post-graduate experience, unless they have deep-down problems stemming from never being good enough in Daddy's eyes.


Seriously - my man learns how to derive some of the trig functions from his HP calculator he learned how to run 'on the floor' and thinks he's a super-genious. Just like the life-time instrument man on a survey crew that painfully makes it thru a degree - suddenly ain't no one in the world that can out survey him. You 'technician converts' always oftentimes  miss the big picture and know next to nothing on [don't strive to know] what it truly takes to be a _professional_ - or did you think that simply passing tests makes you one?


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## engineergurl (Jul 20, 2008)

Okay, I have kept my mouth shut while observing this thread for a while, but well I've never been very good at doing that for very long. Now that it's boiling down to name calling and insults, bragging and arguments I'll put in my :two cents:.

No it is not ture that you don't have to be an engineer in some states to obtain a PE. A PE is a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING License... in order to be a professional engineer you NEED to be an engineer. With that said, all this discussion of education and experience is a waste of time...

Unfortuantly I'm only particularly familiar with North Carolina's requirements, but they require a COMBINATION of education and experience for the most part. The more "book learning" you have the less experience needed to qualify to take the test. I think it is safe to assume that the reasoning is that one's level of knowledge would be about the same weather they had a Masters Degree OR a Two year degree and X number of years experience. And that X is not just a year or two... it is a significant amount of years.

Simply passing a test does not make anyone a professional... a professional who is someone who has knowledge, the capability, and can handle the pressures, they find the balance between their engineering tasks, problems, designs and the way to communicate their solutions to others in a proper manner. An engineer is a lot of things, or maybe I don't have the big picture... since you know tech converts always miss that?


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## EM_PS (Jul 20, 2008)

I'll take the teeth out of the post - easy now, lets not institute sensitivity training around here -

p.s. - i don't think his ego needs your defense. . . .but do whatya feel you got to


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## engineergurl (Jul 20, 2008)

Thank you EM... I hope you do see the point I was trying to make... even though there are some, that think they are holier then thou because they started with scrubbing floors and then when they were able to obtain a degree and pass, a lot of techs would have loved to have followed a traditional degree program but for some reason or other, they went about things different... perhaps, they couldn't go to college first because the opportunity wasn't there, or perhaps they majored in something else and found their niche in engineering afterwards, or maybe they are just older and happened to work their way up. I do apologize for comming across as defensive... I didn't take it personally, but wanted to get a response in before others started... I'm aware that sarcasm does come across very differently over the internet.

Unfortunatly, my post did seem like I was trying to come to someones defense, but that was an ugly side effect. He gives those who started at the bottom and worked up a bad name because of his arrogance, and there isn't really an excuse for that other then lack of maturity, which apparently was one thing he forgot to learn while working his way up from the floor. (why would he be on the floor anyway... even at the tech level, I have ALWAYS been given a chair).

The issue I have is no matter how anyone gets there, the end result is the matter of fact.  So do you need a BS degree or a MS degree to be an engineer? OR Can you have worked for 40 years in the engineering field and be an engineer? Well, if you removed staples from invoices at an engineering office, then no, but if you were preforming the same exact things the educated employee did, isn't it fair to call you an engineer? (ha ha life isn't fair and that *was* sarcasm)

Ones credentials are means to allow others a glimpse at how one went about obtaining ones intelligence, but they are not a measure of said intelligence.


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## Brody (Jul 21, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I can feel for the hands-on engineers without an education -- I was one.
> It is well understood in industry that the best engineers unequivocally come up from the floor like I did. You not only have superior blueprint reading and visualization skills but also the unparalled experience to finish a product from prototype to launch -- Not to mention the millions you save companies by visualizing mistakes in drawings before the prototypes.
> 
> But you have to take your craft to the next level to get respect -- and that's why I graduated with highest honors from a top school and achieved both national honors and national dean's list. GM, GE, &amp; NASA, for example, have experience with engineers that came up from the floor and concurred they make superior engineers -- and that's why all 3 wanted me in engineering mgmt.
> ...


^^ A post like this comes along once in a lifetime. Priceless. Admins: Can this be put into the Hall of Fame for all to see so it doesn't get buried and lost?


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 21, 2008)

benbo said:


> Just to clarify, I don't think there is anything wrong with taking these exams just to "test your mettle." But there is a difference between taking the exam and getting a license. I also enjoy taking exams (for some strange reason) although I doubt I would retake any PE exams. I plan to take the CRE exam next year just for the heck of it. I guess I just assumed from your indignation and despondency over not being able to take the test that you were some desperate fellow who was unemployed and unable to work in your chosen profession because of some "catch-22".
> A PE is different than a CISCO cert or a CRE, because it implies a legal responsibility and culpability. I don't believe there is a process to revoke your CISCO cert if you make a network mistake. Also, I believe you can get the CISCO cert with no experience - that is probably why the test is harder.
> 
> The PE relies on education / experience and exam. My coworker is licensed in mechanical, civil and metallurgical. But he has education and experience in all those areas. I don't think there is any way you should trust someone to design a safety critical system if all you knew about them was that they passed the PE test. The test is just one stop gap. That is probably why they require PEs in many states for references - if they fudge a reference they concievably put their own license at risk.
> ...


I think you brought out 2 good points here Benbo (see I'm open-minded).

A PE is different than a CISCO cert or a CRE,* because it implies a legal responsibility and culpability*.

However one can interpret this to mean that NCEES does not see all of the years of engineering experience under experienced engineers (though they are without PE licenses) on classified programs or commercial products as not implying a legal responsibility? That ought to open the eyes to those who've worked on black programs or NSA programs .... Those are a lot more punitive than any violation that results in the loss of your PE license ---&gt; branded a traitor to your country thus resulting in the loss of one's ability to be employed at all in this country, or worse yet, loss of citizenship (this has happened).

However, even in the classified programs, besides commercial ones, if one screws up, they get rid of that engineer and could even "blackball" the engineer within the industry.

I do see your point about culpability though. None of the software projects/programs that I have either been responsible engineeer-in-charge or a team member has culpability even though loss of life could happen. You will note that commercial COTS S/W all have legal disclaimers that their S/W is not legally responsible for any business loss/damage due to the use of their product.

_But he has education and experience in all those areas. I don't think there is any way you should trust someone to design a safety critical system if all you knew about them was that they passed the PE test. The test is just one stop gap. That is probably why they_ *require PEs in many states for references - if they fudge a reference they concievably put their own license at risk*.

Again, my "beef" with NCEES. Basically they are stating that engineers in exempt industries that are willing to serve as references are not risking their reputation since they are not licensed PEs. I beg to differ and probably these engineers would too, since their reputation is on-the-line and could detrimentally affect their employment at their company or within their industry. Though one of the other forum commentators may be seen as arrogant, the person is correct; exempt industries (e.g., GM, NASA) rely on an engineer's reputation based on "word-of-mouth" from other engineers within the same company, engineers that have dealt with that person in professional organizations, and engineers from other companies or clients that have worked with that engineer.

After some deep thought, the concern that probably NCEES has here is that they have no way to "track" the supervisory engineers that are providing references on a PE candidate. Since these supervisory references have no PE license, unless NCEES outlay significant resources ($$$) for a DB on all engineers, they have no way of verifying these references.

No, I DO NOT LIKE taking tests. Like I've previously stated, a PE is required for State/County/Municipal employment as an engineer. For some locales, government unfortunately, is the largest employer of engineers (sometimes disproportionately). However, there has to be some mechanism for NCEES and thus these industries, to allow experienced engineers from exempt industries to obtain their PE licenses (cause for my frustration and despondency). Yes, I do have both EE and ME experience in my years of working in exempt industries (seems like they provide their employees a broader range of experiences when one first come out of college, regardless of level (i.e., BS, MS)). However, none of the experienced EEs or MEs when I started in Silicon Valley had even heard of a PE; none of them had one even though they were experts in their field or had patents for products that are used in some cases, life-critical apps.


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## benbo (Jul 21, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> Like I've previously stated, a PE is required for State/County/Municipal employment as an engineer. For some locales, government unfortunately, is the largest employer of engineers (sometimes disproportionately).


Sigh. I still don't understand what you are doing. Even if you pass the exam and get licensed in another state you will not be able to get licensed in Hawaii. So unless you are planning to move you will not be able to use the license. That's my main point.

Additionally, I don't think it is NCEES who is causing you problems. I believe your problem is with the state of Hawaii. My state (California) allows references from non-PEs in exempt industries.

As far as ALL of the other stuff - I worked for Hughes Aircraft for 12 years, and in Silicon Valley for 6. I've had security clearances. So you don't need to explain all that to me.

I assumed you liked taking the exams because you get absolutely no benefit from taking all three depth modules. It is the same license. But I guess you have your reasons. It seems like there would be easier and less expensive ways to diagnose your weak areas.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 21, 2008)

benbo said:


> Sigh. I still don't understand what you are doing. Even if you pass the exam and get licensed in another state you will not be able to get licensed in Hawaii. So unless you are planning to move you will not be able to use the license. That's my main point.
> Additionally, I don't think it is NCEES who is causing you problems. I believe your problem is with the state of Hawaii. My state (California) allows references from non-PEs in exempt industries.
> 
> As far as ALL of the other stuff - I worked for Hughes Aircraft for 12 years, and in Silicon Valley for 6. I've had security clearances. So you don't need to explain all that to me.
> ...


Since you've worked at Hughes and in Silicon Valley you understand all of "that stuff". However, other readers of the forum may not have the background and experience that you share with me. I believe the purpose of this and all of the forums are for everyone's benefit, regardless of background.

The "crying need" seems to be for licensed PEs in State government rather than those who've passed the FE.

It would be nice to take the test in HI since I currently reside here, but reality is that all of my references would be in CA, TN, IL, VA, and TX. I suppose if I dug enough I could track additional references in other states (e.g., MI, NY).

My "take" is that if one is prepared for all three depth modules, then the "breadth" morning exam would be much easier. However, starting with April 2009, all of this is moot since the entire exam would be in a specific depth area.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 21, 2008)

benbo said:


> Sigh. I still don't understand what you are doing. Even if you pass the exam and get licensed in another state you will not be able to get licensed in Hawaii. So unless you are planning to move you will not be able to use the license. That's my main point.
> Additionally, I don't think it is NCEES who is causing you problems. I believe your problem is with the state of Hawaii. My state (California) allows references from non-PEs in exempt industries.
> 
> As far as ALL of the other stuff - I worked for Hughes Aircraft for 12 years, and in Silicon Valley for 6. I've had security clearances. So you don't need to explain all that to me.
> ...


Since you've worked at Hughes and in Silicon Valley you understand all of "that stuff". However, other readers of the forum may not have the background and experience that you share with me. I believe the purpose of this and all of the forums are for everyone's benefit, regardless of background.

The "crying need" seems to be for licensed PEs in State government rather than those who've passed the FE.

It would be nice to take the test in HI since I currently reside here, but reality is that all of my references would be in CA, TN, IL, VA, and TX. I suppose if I dug enough I could track additional references in other states (e.g., MI, NY).

My "take" is that if one is prepared for all three depth modules, then the "breadth" morning exam would be much easier. However, starting with April 2009, all of this is moot since the entire exam would be in a specific depth area.


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## benbo (Jul 21, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> My "take" is that if one is prepared for all three depth modules, then the "breadth" morning exam would be much easier. However, starting with April 2009, all of this is moot since the entire exam would be in a specific depth area.


Okay - I misunderstood.

You are correct - that is a good way to prepare. I thought you were talking about continuing to retake the actual exam after you had already passed.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 21, 2008)

benbo said:


> Okay - I misunderstood.
> You are correct - that is a good way to prepare. I thought you were talking about continuing to retake the actual exam after you had already passed.


No, taking the exam more than once would be considered torture. What would happen if you passed, then say, you took it the 2nd time and didn't pass?

A better approach would be to take the PE exam in another discipline, especially in large corporations.

I still think that it would be a better approach to be able to take the test in another depth area at some point.

Right now, my understanding is that once a person has their PE license, say in EE, then it is up to that person to self-regulate themselves as to whether they are competent enough to work in a specific area of that discipline. Say for example, I pass the Computer depth section of the PE in the Electrical discipline. However, as others on the forum have noted, there is no process, other than self-regulation, that the engineer 1) has "proof" of competency in Power and 2) has a process/methodology to feel confident that they have an objective, 3rd party "proof" of competency (e.g., NCEES PE Exam in Powers depth) that the engineer actually understands, able to design in the Power arena.

I do know for Cisco that you must re-certify every 3 years (by exam no less) so one could actually lose their Cisco certification after 3 years even with lots of actual experience.


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## benbo (Jul 21, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> I still think that it would be a better approach to be able to take the test in another depth area at some point.Right now, my understanding is that once a person has their PE license, say in EE, then it is up to that person to self-regulate themselves as to whether they are competent enough to work in a specific area of that discipline.


That's an interestng thought, but it is always going to be up to the person to self regulate. That's why I look on the references as being as much about judgement and ethics as anything else. Which I agree can be judged by PEs and non-PEs alike (I agree with your earlier point- that the states like using PEs so they can track them, not because they are inhernetly more reliable).

But I still have to self regulate. I passed the ECC portion of the exam, but there are MANY things in the area of ECC that I would not feel confident to sign off on, without much additional research and study.

In fact, I might have been able to slide by in Computers or Power. But there is no way I'm going to put myself forward as a power system expert, even if I got 100% on that multiple choice exam. So it is always boils down to me and my sense of responsibility


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 21, 2008)

benbo said:


> That's an interestng thought, but it is always going to be up to the person to self regulate. That's why I look on the references as being as much about judgement and ethics as anything else. Which I agree can be judged by PEs and non-PEs alike (I agree with your earlier point- that the states like using PEs so they can track them, not because they are inhernetly more reliable).
> But I still have to self regulate. I passed the ECC portion of the exam, but there are MANY things in the area of ECC that I would not feel confident to sign off on, without much additional research and study.
> 
> In fact, I might have been able to slide by in Computers or Power. But there is no way I'm going to put myself forward as a power system expert, even if I got 100% on that multiple choice exam. So it is always boils down to me and my sense of responsibility


My thoughts, exactly.


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## GT ME (Jul 25, 2008)

I'll agree with your resentment -- it comes from 30 years of experience knowing that the preponderance of engineers &amp; PEs have an elementary understanding of blueprint reading, not to mention their struggle to visualize a blueprint to completion.

For example, I was a student and my prof was a PHD PE from MIT (&amp; decorated as one of the best in the country -- and still is) that had an exam with an engineering drawing -- I was the ONLY student to tell him the drawing was wrong after 5 years -- he came into class the next day and said "it's obvious that engineering students should have 2 or 3 years of practical experience before entering an engineering program" -- I will live with that statement in my mind until I die.

Moreover, as a state licensed contractor and the push for "design/build," contractors hold leverage over PEs -- that's right -- you have to impress contractors like me to hire you -- contractors put the drawing on the earth -- not PEs -- don't ever forget that.

Unfortunately, If you don't have experience at the Fortune 10 level in engineering from companies that've been around since the late 1800's or early 1900's, then you would'nt know from experience that floor engineers are far superior.

Have you ever been recruited at that level from a PE from some of the world's largest organizations -- let alone receive an engineering mgmt position like me?



MEPE2B said:


> I've known a number of engineers over the years that came up from the floor. Many of them had a solid feel for what is practical that gave them an advantage over engineers with a book-only type of leaning.
> However, a few of them also had a deep-seeded resentment, and somewhat of an inferiority complex based on the years they had spent working for people that they consider inferior to themselves. It just burned them up inside for all those years that those book-smart punk engineers had rank over them based on a piece of paper they themselves lacked. Not surprising that that when they finally got their own piece of paper that they would take license to crow loudly about their own accomplishments. The engineers in this category usually mellow out after they get about 5 years of post-graduate experience, unless they have deep-down problems stemming from never being good enough in Daddy's eyes.


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## Dark Knight (Jul 25, 2008)

Don't do it Ben. I know you want to but don't do it!!!!!


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## engineergurl (Jul 26, 2008)

I will DK.

what is up with the word preponderance and you, is your vocabulary limited? If you were an engineer for three years then of course you spotted a mistake that new students hadn't, they haven't learned yet, you only made the professor look like an idiot there, or maybe he was just trying to seek you out to praise you. But if that is the praise that you will live with in your mind until you die then cherish it, mine will continually something much more meaningful from some one so much more important in my life.

You don't have to impress contractors, you have to give them the best bang for their buck, BIG difference... same plans with different costs the least costly will always be chosen. And why would you take the drawing and put it on the earth... your supposed to use it to build things.. not as a doormat, talk about lack of respect.

Fourtune 10... they have been around probably not because of their skills but because they survived the depression and invested wisely...bet they are into all sorts of industries rather then just engineering. Besides 1800's and 1900's is old school anyway, today we are in the 21st century.

No I haven't been recruited at that level, but is that all that important to me? not really, I'm pretty dang happy right now being unemployeed because I now get to see my husband everyday and if it required me to give up my level headedness and become an arrogant ass like you, I wouldn't want to receive an engineering mgmt position.

BTW: you can talk about all the resentment you want, but I look at it all as a learning experience. Being open to ideas makes life so much easier.



GT ME said:


> I'll agree with your resentment -- it comes from 30 years of experience knowing that the preponderance of engineers &amp; PEs have an elementary understanding of blueprint reading, not to mention their struggle to visualize a blueprint to completion.
> For example, I was a student and my prof was a PHD PE from MIT (&amp; decorated as one of the best in the country -- and still is) that had an exam with an engineering drawing -- I was the ONLY student to tell him the drawing was wrong after 5 years -- he came into class the next day and said "it's obvious that engineering students should have 2 or 3 years of practical experience before entering an engineering program" -- I will live with that statement in my mind until I die.
> 
> Moreover, as a state licensed contractor and the push for "design/build," contractors hold leverage over PEs -- that's right -- you have to impress contractors like me to hire you -- contractors put the drawing on the earth -- not PEs -- don't ever forget that.
> ...


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## squishles10 (Aug 3, 2008)

opcorn:

I got into MIT, but their Civil program isn't all that good so I turned it down. Plus when I visited everyone was weird. I didn't want that stigma for the rest of my life.

As far as I know, U of I almost ALWAYS has a better Civil program.

And isn't it funny that they're not asking him to DESIGN anything... it's not a practical school, it's all based on theory. No good in real life.

I've been recruited by some amazing companies and government agencies- I turned most of them down. A good way to be miserable in your work is to go somewhere just for a name.


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## mudpuppy (Aug 10, 2008)

This was published in the July issue of PE, in response to an article about the proposed BS+30 rule in NCEES' model law:



> I believe this is a bad idea. In my younger days, I knew a couple of electrical engineers who had no formal degree. They had gone to work in a shipyard right out of high school and hooked up with an electrical apprenticeship program. They read as much electrical thoery as they could find, learned on the job, and listened to more experienced electricians and engineers. After a few years, they learned enough to pass the then-EIT exam. Then they got the required experience to take the PE exam and passed it. I had the privilege of working with them, and found they had forgotten more electrical engineering than I ever knew--and I have a formal BSEE and hold a PE in several states. Under the current system of requiring a bachelor's degree simply to sit for the FE exam, men such as them, who are a credit to the profession, could not ever be licensed without going back to school. Raising the number of degrees one must hold to qualify for a PE will further cut out talented individuals, while doing nothing to enhance the value of PE registration. Most older eningeers will agree that what is learned on the job is far more valuable than the theory in the text books. I have no problem with higher degrees that anyone wants to pursue, but they should not be a prerequisite for licensure.
> _Michael H. Davis, P.E._
> 
> Mobile, AL


In addition to being an argument against the BS+30 rule, I think this is a strong argument against a BS requirement to sit for the FE.


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## bigtrees (Aug 11, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I thought NCEES requires an engineering degree from an accredited school.


The NCEES has no authoirty to require or prohibit any qualifications to become a licnsed, professional engineer. The only body that has that authority is the legislative body in each state, and through them, the licensing boards that review and approve applications in each state.


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## jmbeck (Aug 13, 2008)

bigtrees said:


> Have you ever been recruited at that level from a PE from some of the world's largest organizations -- let alone receive an engineering mgmt position like me?


I actually know a guy that is in an engineering managment position at one of these "Fortune 10" companies you talk so highly about.

He only had 8 years experience too. He was 30 years old.

Does that make him better than you?

Just curious, because if Engineering Manager at Chevron is the pinnacle of the engineering profession, I wish I'd have stuck to my childhood dreams of being a fireman.

Or a cowboy.


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## GT ME (Aug 28, 2008)

Houston we have a problem -- I believe GE, GM, &amp; NASA still function in the 21st century.

The fact that they've been around(except NASA) proves my point.

I quess if you're probably the ONLY person in the USA (unless proven otherwise) that is a state certified HVACR contractor &amp; PE that started as a technician in a state sponsored apprentiship program, you'd understand.

This is why I believe you could have a 100 years of engineering experience and never approach my engineering abilities -- you confuse arrogance &amp; confidence.

arty-smiley-048:

Fourtune 10... they have been around probably not because of their skills but because they survived the depression and invested wisely...bet they are into all sorts of industries rather then just engineering. Besides 1800's and 1900's is old school anyway, today we are in the 21st century.

No I haven't been recruited at that level, but is that all that important to me? not really, I'm pretty dang happy right now being unemployeed because I now get to see my husband everyday and if it required me to give up my level headedness and become an arrogant ass like you, I wouldn't want to receive an engineering mgmt position.


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## engineergurl (Aug 28, 2008)

GT ME said:


> Houston we have a problem -- I believe GE, GM, &amp; NASA still function in the 21st century.
> The fact that they've been around(except NASA) proves my point.
> 
> I quess if you're probably the ONLY person in the USA (unless proven otherwise) that is a state certified HVACR contractor &amp; PE that started as a technician in a state sponsored apprentiship program, you'd understand.
> ...



Look at that, there are quotes. Last time I checked, a PE had to have some knowledge of ethics, and plagerism is kind of an ethical issue, isn't it? Besides, an 80 year old can function in the 21'st century thanks to Viagra.


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## EM_PS (Aug 29, 2008)

GT ME said:


> Houston we have a problem -- I believe GE, GM, &amp; NASA still function in the 21st century.
> The fact that they've been around(except NASA) proves my point.
> 
> I quess if you're probably the ONLY person in the USA (unless proven otherwise) that is a state certified HVACR contractor &amp; PE that started as a technician in a state sponsored apprentiship program, you'd understand.
> ...


My young 'peer', your discourse has grown tedious &amp; wearisome - You may be a PE, but you are anything but a professional.

From Curtis Brown:

"Perhaps one of the greatest attributes of a successful practitioner is measured by how well he gets along with others. Knowledge alone does not make a professional man. He must have knowledge and use that knowledge in guiding, teaching, or mentoring others, and his success in this depends upon how well he can influence others. We have all seen those who have _superior_ knowledge, but who are pugnacious, contrary, unyielding, and never wrong. We have all seen those that display the fiery impulse of an infuriated clam and those that have the backbone of a wet noodle. Such types seldom succeed as professional men."

"To be a successful professional engineer, a man must have more than a narrow technical education. Technical education has to do with things. Employees at the bottom deal with things; professional men deal with people. The fundamental concept in human relationship is that it is not sufficient to be right, a person must also persuade. Things cannot be persuaded; humans can. All of the technical knowledge in the world is of little aid unless a person can also convey this knowledge to others."

Are you ethical? Do others seek you out for advice? Have you contributed anything to the engineering profession, or do you just sit back and let others advance it? Is earning a dollar by any means more important than maintaining a principle? Will you sell your signature? Do you aid others in evading the licensing act? Do you degrade your fellow engineers? Have you actively pushed the cause of all engineers or do you selfishly only look out for yourself? Are you active in your professional society? Have you had articles published in a professional magazine / journal? Do you serve on committees?

Based on your inane &amp; ceaseless chest puffing, you are simply a substandard HVAC mechie, just earned your PE, and you have pronounced self-worth issues. You may be very technically capable at what you do, but you have ZERO professional eminence. Good luck, companies, even Fortune 10 companies, all have a brooding, introverted, ego-centric dipwad who feels the company wouldn't exist except for him &amp; his talents. You're as replaceable as a coffeepot.


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## MEPE2B (Aug 29, 2008)

GT ME said:


> Houston we have a problem -- I believe GE, GM, &amp; NASA still function in the 21st century.
> The fact that they've been around(except NASA) proves my point.
> 
> I quess if you're probably the ONLY person in the USA (unless proven otherwise) that is a state certified HVACR contractor &amp; PE that started as a technician in a state sponsored apprentiship program, you'd understand.
> ...


Oh my, let me back up and reevaluate my ill-conceived doubts about your superior engineering abilities. I didn't realize what engineering greatness we all have been blessed to have visited upon us with your presence. What a milestone to behold in the field of engineering: to be licensed as an HVAC contractor and as a PE, all at once! I won't even bother to check whether it has been done before...certainly this accomplishment must be a first in the annals of engineering history! It seems like I know of dozens of them, but, alas I must be mistaken! You, sir, are right up their with the greats, like Edison and Royce.

So, since we have such a phenominal engineering talent here among us, please let me ask...out of all of the great engineering achievements you must have to your credit, which one, pray tell, would you regard as your greatest engineering accomplishment?? Perhaps you've discovered a great new power source to solve the world's energy crisis? Have you patented a replacement for the space shuttle? Maybe something less extravagant, but more wide reaching, like a light bulb that with a 200% improvement in efficiency?? A replacement for the transistor? Have you single-handedly designed the new world's tallest sky-scraper?

It must be something on a similar scale as the examples I've guessed at, right? Was it something just as amazing, like that you sized an air conditioner for a warehouse and picked out the correct components from the Carrier catalog? Or Perhaps that you were the only student in your college class that could read a blueprint?


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## Dexman1349 (Aug 29, 2008)

error_matrix said:


> My young 'peer', your discourse has grown tedious &amp; wearisome - You may be a PE, but you are anything but a professional.
> From Curtis Brown:
> 
> "Perhaps one of the greatest attributes of a successful practitioner is measured by how well he gets along with others. Knowledge alone does not make a professional man. He must have knowledge and use that knowledge in guiding, teaching, or mentoring others, and his success in this depends upon how well he can influence others. We have all seen those who have _superior_ knowledge, but who are pugnacious, contrary, unyielding, and never wrong. We have all seen those that display the fiery impulse of an infuriated clam and those that have the backbone of a wet noodle. Such types seldom succeed as professional men."
> ...


:appl: :appl: :appl:


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## FLBuff PE (Aug 29, 2008)

MEPE2B said:


> Oh my, let me back up and reevaluate my ill-conceived doubts about your superior engineering abilities. I didn't realize what engineering greatness we all have been blessed to have visited upon us with your presence. What a milestone to behold in the field of engineering: to be licensed as an HVAC contractor and as a PE, all at once! I won't even bother to check whether it has been done before...certainly this accomplishment must be a first in the annals of engineering history! It seems like I know of dozens of them, but, alas I must be mistaken! You, sir, are right up their with the greats, like Edison and Royce.
> So, since we have such a phenominal engineering talent here among us, please let me ask...out of all of the great engineering achievements you must have to your credit, which one, pray tell, would you regard as your greatest engineering accomplishment?? Perhaps you've discovered a great new power source to solve the world's energy crisis? Have you patented a replacement for the space shuttle? Maybe something less extravagant, but more wide reaching, like a light bulb that with a 200% improvement in efficiency?? A replacement for the transistor? Have you single-handedly designed the new world's tallest sky-scraper?
> 
> It must be something on a similar scale as the examples I've guessed at, right? Was it something just as amazing, like that you sized an air conditioner for a warehouse and picked out the correct components from the Carrier catalog? Or Perhaps that you were the only student in your college class that could read a blueprint?


Don't forget stormwater modeling. Probably excels at that too.


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## mudpuppy (Aug 30, 2008)

^^This brings up an interesting and difficult question: Which is more difficult, HVAC design or stormwater modeling?


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## Katiebug (Aug 31, 2008)

GT ME said:


> Houston we have a problem -- I believe GE, GM, &amp; NASA still function in the 21st century.
> The fact that they've been around(except NASA) proves my point.
> 
> I quess if you're probably the ONLY person in the USA (unless proven otherwise) that is a state certified HVACR contractor &amp; PE that started as a technician in a state sponsored apprentiship program, you'd understand.
> ...


No, it's pretty clear that you're arrogant as hell.

In my position at my company I have more experience than anyone in the world when it comes to my component. I have multiple patent filings, and when there's a problem with the product in the field, it comes to me first. Yet, I visibly cringe when one of the field engineers tells the manager of a local office, or a mechanic, that I'm "the expert". It embarrasses me. Sure, I have more experience with the product than anyone, but that doesn't make me an expert; there is still so much that I _don't_ know. I am humbled when I go into the field, especially with our very knowledgeable field engineers who have been in the business since I was a small child. Besides, the only way I became the de facto "expert" is because my coworker died in a car accident - trust me, I'd give up the "expert" title in a heartbeat if it meant my friend was still around to be the go-to guy.

You certainly don't see me - without even an EIT yet - running around on this board and proclaiming my greatness. A PE doesn't make you special. It means you've been able to pass two tests and accumulate some experience. Yes, it's an accomplishment to be very proud of, but one that many engineers have attained. Don't put on airs that you're some kind of brilliant technical mind who everyone should defer to.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Sep 1, 2008)

Casey said:


> In high school we were taught about a great native indian chief that loved trigonometry
> SOH-CAH-TOA
> 
> *s*ine = *O*pp/*H*yp
> ...


OHWA TONNA SIAM. Repeat that over and over, more and more quickly as you do. I've found that to be an excellent meditative practice what I feel stressed.


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## squishles10 (Sep 2, 2008)

error_matrix said:


> My young 'peer', your discourse has grown tedious &amp; wearisome - You may be a PE, but you are anything but a professional.
> ...
> 
> Are you ethical? Do others seek you out for advice? Have you contributed anything to the engineering profession, or do you just sit back and let others advance it? Is earning a dollar by any means more important than maintaining a principle? Will you sell your signature? Do you aid others in evading the licensing act? Do you degrade your fellow engineers? Have you actively pushed the cause of all engineers or do you selfishly only look out for yourself? Are you active in your professional society? Have you had articles published in a professional magazine / journal? Do you serve on committees?
> ...


:thankyou:


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## Sschell (Sep 2, 2008)

VTEnviro said:


> OHWA TONNA SIAM. Repeat that over and over, more and more quickly as you do. I've found that to be an excellent meditative practice what I feel stressed.


or "Iam sofa king we todd did" works well too.


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## DVINNY (Sep 4, 2008)

Yes, please READ ALOUD FOR ALL AROUND YOU TO HEAR

*I AM WE TODD TED, SOFA KING WE TODD TED*


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## Sschell (Sep 4, 2008)

Aqua teen hunger force!

or the hip hop version from my favorite MC (MF doom):

Sofa king


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## GT ME (Sep 4, 2008)

As I said -- I'm probably the only one in the country that achieved my status

arty-smiley-048:



squishles10 said:


> :thankyou:


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 5, 2008)

GT ME said:


> As I said -- I'm probably the only one in the country that achieved my status
> arty-smiley-048:


You are correct there sir. But then again, Most Deluded Engineer on the Planet isn't exactly a status we are all clamoring to attain. Maybe next you can take over for John Edward as Biggest Douche in the Universe.


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## jmbeck (Sep 8, 2008)

GT ME said:


> As I said -- I'm probably the only one in the country that achieved my status
> arty-smiley-048:


Oh yeah, well I'm a licensed HVACR Contractor, a PE, and I'm left-handed.


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## PE-ness (Sep 9, 2008)

I've tried being left handed before, too. The benefit was only temporary.


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## DVINNY (Sep 10, 2008)

reverse grip?


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## Sschell (Sep 10, 2008)

riding fakie?


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