# Protecting the PE License



## knight1fox3 (Apr 25, 2017)

I got an email recently from NSPE and thought I would share. I'm sure it's partially an attempt to secure additional membership, but at the same time there are probably some valid concerns.

https://www.nspe.org/resources/issues-and-advocacy/latest-news



> *Is Your License Safe? *
> 
> As a PE, a typical day for you might include troubleshooting problems, designing solutions, or managing a project.  What is probably not at the top of your list of responsibilities is to monitor threats to your license.
> 
> ...


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Apr 26, 2017)

I have seen different posts of this type over the past couple of years. I am not sure what they are thinking, except they have no clue what we do. Are they planning on removing the Bar exam, or the medical boards?

Congressional offices both state and federal should be a part time job. When they sit around with time on their hands, they think of silly things like this to toss around.

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## matt267 PE (Apr 26, 2017)

Looks like I'll $300 this year and not bother to renew.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 26, 2017)

matt267 PE said:


> Looks like I'll $300 this year and not bother to renew.


The topic of a nation-wide standardized PDH requirement for those PE's with active licenses came up again. It's coming Matt... 

You're welcome. :thumbs:


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## matt267 PE (Apr 26, 2017)

Not here it won't. I'm telling you, the legislators do not have the balls. There would be too much crying and back room deals.

edit:

I personally like the idea of a PDH requirement.


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## Owism (Apr 26, 2017)

well what a waste of time for PE test takers like me.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Apr 26, 2017)

Owism said:


> well what a waste of time for PE test takers like me.


Not a waste of time.... it was so much fun. I'd much rather sit in a stuffy, yet freezing, exam room for an entire day then say, be in a hostage situation. Actually, the PE is pretty similar, just minus the guns.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 26, 2017)

matt267 PE said:


> Not here it won't. I'm telling you, the legislators do not have the balls. There would be too much crying and back room deals.
> 
> edit:
> 
> I personally like the idea of a PDH requirement.


That's similar in effect to saying, your state won't recognize the now national standardized PE test required for licensure. The hand will be forced at some point just as it was with the exam.


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## Road Guy (Apr 26, 2017)

This is _Fake News / Intellectual Dishonesty_ on the part of NCEES

In my experience things like this only come up in states that are trying to use this as an example of why other professions should be licensed, A common one is Residential Contractors (basically a form of life lower than Real Estate Agents and Defense Attorneys) - Its usually some "legislator" that has had a bad experience with a home builder and finds their is no recourse (no license in most states) so they come up with some argument, well if the guy that built my house doesn't need to have a license then why should the people who design our bridges?  - Without much real attempt to do away with licensure.


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## matt267 PE (Apr 26, 2017)

It's different than taking a standardized test. A PDH requirement would result in people having to spend money to take classes. That wouldn't go over too well. It would also result in someone having to monitor/track/verify PDH credits. This is a state that allows only two local (likely family members) companies to supply PE stamps. I can see the same being done with the PDH requirements. You can only take classes with "Cousin Vinny".


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 26, 2017)

matt267 PE said:


> It's different than taking a standardized test. A PDH requirement would result in people having to spend money to take classes.


Not always the case. In most instances, employer-provided training goes a long way toward being acceptable as PDHs. As does any other company-sponsored and/or company-funded training programs. Typically only in extreme cases where an individual waits until the last month prior to renewal would a license-holder have to pay for classes to "cram" to meet the requirement. In addition, a certain number of PDHs can also be banked for the following renewal period. 

The intent is not to be a financial burden, the intent is to have licensed engineers maintain competence in the latest developments/standards/practices that are relevant to their profession.


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## matt267 PE (Apr 26, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> employer-provided training


Yeah, we don't do that here.



knight1fox3 said:


> the intent is to have licensed engineering maintain competence in the latest developments/standards/practices that are relevant to their profession.


This I agree with and have been looking into classes to take even though I don't have too.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 26, 2017)

matt267 PE said:


> Yeah, we don't do that here.


You have absolutely ZERO training on anything related to your job function? QC, logistics, financial, organizational?

I find that hard to believe.


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## Jbone27 PE (Apr 26, 2017)

Our PE's get many opportunities for PDH. Most come from contractors trying to sell their latest product. Software, TRM, ect... They are all free and usually include lunch.


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## Owism (Apr 26, 2017)

matt267 PE said:


> Yeah, we don't do that here.
> 
> This I agree with and have been looking into classes to take even though I don't have too.


Join the government when you first get the chance. pay might be lower but health,retirement, and continuing education benefits all are worth it and add up to being the same, if not more. Not to mention union protections (depending on the state) which has priceless benefits when it comes to being home at the same time of day to spend time with the family. priceless.


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## NJmike PE (Apr 26, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> You have absolutely ZERO training on anything related to your job function? QC, logistics, financial, organizational?
> 
> *I find that hard to believe.*


really? review the quality and quantity of his posts.... Do you still feel that way?


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## matt267 PE (Apr 26, 2017)

Owism said:


> Join the government when you first get the chance. pay might be lower but health,retirement, and continuing education benefits all are worth it and add up to being the same, if not more. Not to mention union protections (depending on the state) which has priceless benefits when it comes to being home at the same time of day to spend time with the family. priceless.


I do work for the government.


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## Road Guy (Apr 26, 2017)

PDH's are not really intended to "keep you up to date" they are more of a result of someone who sells those classes takes the right politician / government schmuck to the right vacation / dinner until they convince them that we all "need" to buy their worthless PDH / CEU classes, books, etc..  Its basically welfare...


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## mudpuppy (Apr 26, 2017)

Reducing government regulation and cutting red tape clear the way for businesses to help grow the economy, right?  Deregulate the engineering industry, it'll promote competition and we'll all be better off!

Yes, this is all tongue-in-cheek but I'm sure there are tons of politicians that would swallow this idea hook, line and sinker.


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## mudpuppy (Apr 26, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> You have absolutely ZERO training on anything related to your job function? QC, logistics, financial, organizational?
> 
> I find that hard to believe.




The only training we get around here is safety and diversity.  Those are the only things that matter any more.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 26, 2017)

mudpuppy said:


> The only training we get around here is safety and diversity.  Those are the only things that matter any more.


Essentially my point. There's usually SOME sort of training that a company performs. The safety training might qualify since it relates to your job function. Assuming it is 30 min. or greater in length.


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## Supe (Apr 26, 2017)

Damnit, @csb, what have you done now?

http://jalopnik.com/talking-about-how-traffic-light-timing-works-will-get-y-1794666308


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 26, 2017)

From the link to WA state:

"the proposed bill... places limits and burdens on when a given regulatory board can engage in rulemaking and other standard state executive agency activities "

this is a threat to licensure?  How?  I fail to see how capriciousness is at all desirable.


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## kevo_55 (Apr 26, 2017)

And to think I thought this thread had something to do with simply wearing a cup.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 26, 2017)

The sales pitch of PDH's is that they help ensure engineers remain current.

The real motive is typically from some training institution's lobby trying to boost business.

In the end, several politicians are richer, training companies grow, engineers get 20+ hours of paid nap time, and the government body stacks more workload on a skeleton crew.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 26, 2017)

Owism said:


> Join the government when you first get the chance. pay might be lower but health,retirement, *basically no merit raises for the first 5 years, *and continuing education benefits all are worth it and add up to being the same, if not more *(false)*. Not to mention union *(LOL!!!!!)* protections (depending on the state) which has priceless benefits when it comes to being home at the same time of day to spend time with the family. priceless, *but breeds poor work ethic*.


Fixt.



Road Guy said:


> PDH's are not really intended to "keep you up to date" they are more of a result of someone who sells those classes takes the right politician / government schmuck to the right vacation / dinner until they convince them that we all "need" to buy their worthless PDH / CEU classes, books, etc..  Its basically welfare...


Then you likely aren't taking courses relevant to your profession. Obviously it's easy enough to cut corners and take something "just to take it". But that's not really doing yourself any favors. Also, development hours/continuing education was a requirement well before any of the marketed training class providers were around. It was only until recently people noticed there was a pretty good market for such services. I have yet to engage in any development course/training that I would consider to be worthless. Because if I did, it would be just that, a waste of my time. Something that is a commodity as of recent.


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## Road Guy (Apr 26, 2017)

At this point in my career there is very little I can learn from someone who likely has never worked outside of some academic world.

Now I spent some time with an old guy who built Glenwood canyon a few weeks ago and I actually learned some things.

But PDH's are worthless unless you just feel you need them... If you are still working on relevant work you will be kept up to speed. If you are doing home inspections as a structural engineer then you may need to keep abreast of the latest..


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 27, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> At this point in my career there is very little I can learn from someone who likely has never worked outside of some academic world.


I can appreciate this given that the type of work you do is heavily experienced based. 



Road Guy said:


> If you are doing home inspections


Don't we know someone on EB who does this?


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## goodal (Apr 27, 2017)

IMHO PDH's are a complete waste of time.  The only ones I have gotten anything out of was from visiting a manufacturing facility.  The tours, hands on experiences and talking to the guys that make grilles, roof top units, fans, etc. was pretty beneficial.  All the other ways to get PDH are pointless and only exist to generate income.  It's a good idea in theory (like socialism), but doesn't work in the real world.  In a perfect world you would learn something, but when you can spend a couple hours online getting 30 hours of worthless credits, any usefullness goes out the window.


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## thekzieg (Apr 27, 2017)

Do brewery tours count towards PDHs?


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## Voomie (Apr 27, 2017)

I have gotten some gotten some stuff out of PDHs. I tend to go to research conferences and I am still young in my career.

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## knight1fox3 (Apr 27, 2017)

goodal said:


> All the other ways to get PDH are pointless and only exist to generate income.


So graduate school is pointless??? Because that is yet another avenue to acquire PDHs. Again, you're speaking only to the marketable resources (those that "sell" development hours) to obtain PDHs (which I agree tend to be rather pointless). I don't think you're looking at the big picture though.



goodal said:


> In a perfect world you would learn something, but when you can spend a couple hours online getting 30 hours of worthless credits, any usefullness goes out the window.


I'm not sure about your state requirements, but in WI, the amount of PDHs you can allocate from online resources is capped. Where one must be proactive to find other avenues of PDHs (including ethics, which I find extremely valuable) and some must be classroom/field based.


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## youngmotivatedengineer (Apr 27, 2017)

Graduate school is not pointless.  In New Jersey they are looking into making a masters degree a requirement for getting your PE license.  If I'm not mistaken, I think ASCE was trying to push for something like this also for all states.


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## TWJ PE (Apr 27, 2017)

youngmotivatedengineer said:


> Graduate school is not pointless.  In New Jersey they are looking into making a masters degree a requirement for getting your PE license.  If I'm not mistaken, I think ASCE was trying to push for something like this also for all states.


They've tried this multiple times in different states. Keeps getting shot down...


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## matt267 PE (Apr 27, 2017)

youngmotivatedengineer said:


> Graduate school is not pointless.  In New Jersey they are looking into making a masters degree a requirement for getting your PE license.  If I'm not mistaken, I think ASCE was trying to push for something like this also for all states.


Now that I have my PE, I think this is a great idea.


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## Voomie (Apr 27, 2017)

I have my masters and PE so I second this as well. Lol

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## goodal (Apr 27, 2017)

I guess I'm looking at practical ways for PE's to get PDH's.  Going back to school for some credits isn't practical for me.  Neither is trying to get an article published.


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## thekzieg (Apr 27, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> So graduate school is pointless???


Yes.

-thekzieg, B.S., M.S., P.E.


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## thekzieg (Apr 27, 2017)

goodal said:


> I guess I'm looking at practical ways for PE's to get PDH's.  Going back to school for some credits isn't practical for me.  Neither is trying to get an article published.


In WA we had some 6-hr and 8-hr seminars on code changes and disaster preparedness that weren't entirely useless.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Apr 27, 2017)

thekzieg said:


> In WA we had some 6-hr and 8-hr seminars on code changes and disaster preparedness that weren't entirely useless.


And no PDH requirement to boot :beerchug:


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 27, 2017)

goodal said:


> I guess I'm looking at practical ways for PE's to get PDH's.  Going back to school for some credits isn't practical for me.  Neither is trying to get an article published.


No, but certain universities offer alternatives to taking full courses. And often times they offer some of them as freebies. There are plenty of practical ways to get PDHs without resorting to pointless webinars.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 27, 2017)

The only PDH's I've found are useful relate to some form of certification. In the US, I was a TCS (Traffic Control Supervisor) which required a certain amount of on the job hours plus a 2-day course. It's required if you supervise traffic control crews (especially flaggers) in Colorado. The on-the-job hours teach you how to actually do the setouts, but the in-class training teaches you the "why's".

I just completed the NZ equivalent series of courses and scored 40hrs of PDH's towards my Chartered Engineer (CPEng) application. In my case, they don't care about a specific amount of hours but rather that I demonstrate around 2 years of "progressive NZ-specific" engineering experience so I can transfer my PE here.


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## Road Guy (Apr 27, 2017)

I think masters degrees are great! Most everyone that works for me has one


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 27, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> I think masters degrees are great! Most everyone that works for me has one


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 27, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> I think masters degrees are great! Most everyone that works for me has one


Don't pretend like you don't have an MBA...


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 27, 2017)

With as diluted as the waters are for MBA's and as bad as many of these MBA's run things, unless it's from a "top 10" University along with a solid work history, it's essentially worthless.

For a few hundred $'s, anyone can buy one.


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## Voomie (Apr 28, 2017)

A few hundred you say? I could use another piece of paper for my wall.

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## Road Guy (Apr 28, 2017)

Any degree or license only gives you an opportunity, it doesn't automatically grant you fatty money, of course it did for me though 

Now Dex remember that I only like one sugar in my coffee from now on


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 30, 2017)

It might be cold when it finally arrives in the mail though. And I wouldn't trust the creamer...


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## Voomie (Apr 30, 2017)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> It might be cold when it finally arrives in the mail though. And I wouldn't trust the creamer...


This is why you don't make fatty money.

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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 30, 2017)

Nah, I wouldn't have fatty money if I had to pay for shipping back to the US...


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## Voomie (Apr 30, 2017)

You don't have fatty money because you over complicating this. Just subcontract the work out to someone local. Just make sure you cover liquidated damages. Pun not intended.

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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 30, 2017)

Thanks for volunteering. RG likes his coffee on his desk by 7:30am and at precisely 165 degrees in his favorite Hello Kitty mug with sippy top.

Contract terms to follow. Work begins ASAP.


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## YMZ PE (May 1, 2017)

French maid outfit is standard uniform for all deliveries to Mr. Guy.


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## Voomie (May 1, 2017)

Well duh. Do you think I am an amateur?

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## Owism (May 1, 2017)

Look at this chap. "Engaging in the practice of Engineering without a license"

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/30/business/traffic-light-fine.html


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## Dleg (May 1, 2017)

^Licensing boards going after stupid shit like that (and the other story included int he article about the politician who worked for Ford and Boeing) will eventually get licensing overturned.  There needs to be some common sense applied.  The guy was just presenting arguments.  He didn't actually program any traffic lights.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (May 1, 2017)

Owism said:


> Look at this chap. "Engaging in the practice of Engineering without a license"
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/30/business/traffic-light-fine.html


Hmmm.


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## SE_FL (May 18, 2017)

Dleg said:


> ^Licensing boards going after stupid shit like that (and the other story included int he article about the politician who worked for Ford and Boeing) will eventually get licensing overturned.  There needs to be some common sense applied.  The guy was just presenting arguments.  He didn't actually program any traffic lights.


The article says he emailed the Oregon Board and called himself "an excellent engineer" (he has an engineering degree from Sweden). How does the board justify the legal fees in defending this case to its members? It was a $500 fine, the guy lawyered up, and now it's going to cost thousands in an attempt to enforce the fine. Not a great business plan or marketing strategy.


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