# America is NOT the greatest country in the world anymore



## Master slacker (Jul 14, 2012)

Food for thought and I agree with the video below. The USA really is no longer the greatest country in the world. The potential is there. It really is, but arrogance needs to make way for realization and an actual path to solutions. What say you?

[media]http://youtu.be/VMqcLUqYqrs


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## Road Guy (Jul 14, 2012)

+1

Success comes before work, only in the dictionary...


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## mudpuppy (Jul 14, 2012)

While I agree with the point that we may not be the same as we were, I disagree that we're no longer the greatest country. If we're not, then which one is? It's not in Eurpoe, look at their economy. It's not China, look at their government and human rights issues, it's not India--they're still stuck in poverty.

I think you're hard pressed to find a better country, so yes, the USA is stll the best country in the world. We are not what we were, no. Is there work to do? Of course. "Worst. Generation. Ever."? Hell, no! Every generation has said that about the proceeding generation. Yeah we face challenges. But this country has faced challenges from the beginning. It is exactly this kind of adversity that makes us stronger We've overcome our problems for two centuries. Shit, we survived a civil war. Do you REALLY think we're in worse shape now than we were in 1860?

Put it in perspective.

I think it's human nature to idealize the past, but to look at today with a defeatist attitude does not help at all. And it's certainly not the American Way.


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## benbo (Jul 14, 2012)

I don't really even know what it means to be the "greatest" country in the world. Isn't that subjective? I guess it depends on how you define it, and what's important to you.

I've been to a lot of countries, and spent a good deal of time working in several on three continents. I wouldn't want to live anywhere else, but that's just me I suppose.

I do know that my wife's family from Peru would give their left nuts to live here (at least the part of her family who have nuts), over anyplace else. Buit again, anecdotal evidence I suppose.


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## Freon (Jul 15, 2012)

Those of you who have traveled/worked overseas can back me up on this.

With VERY FEW exceptions, you go to any country in the world and on any given Monday morning there is a line of people waiting to get into the US Embassy, and to a lesser extent the UK/Commonwealth embassies, to apply for immigration. You don't see alot of lines at other embassies.


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## Master slacker (Jul 15, 2012)

For what reasons would someone from another country want to come here? Would it be the free healthcare, money, food? Would it be for the endless benefits we hand out for those who aren't successful? Or is it the endless supply of high pay jobs and technologically based jobs that lend to prosperity?


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## mudpuppy (Jul 15, 2012)

Maybe it's access to clean drinking water? 24/7 electricity? Roads and bridges that aren't washed out?

So many things we take for granted around here and them bitch and moan about how bad we have it. Try visiting some of these places.


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## Master slacker (Jul 15, 2012)

The stinger is that there are LOTS of places in Europe and South America and elsewhere with the same cleanliness. Yet those people still choose to come here. Why?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 15, 2012)

they all want the luxury of being able to blame Bush for everything too...


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## ElCid03 (Jul 16, 2012)

Running and clean water, electricity that does not go out several times a day, public education, roads not filled with buried explosives, freedom from the fear of the secret police kicking in your door at 0300 because your mother spoke out against the government. The ability to access government services without paying bribes. Our foreign policy is not perfect but we didn't ask to take the world stage is was pushed upon us by converging events.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2012)

ElCid03 said:


> Running and clean water, electricity that does not go out several times a day, public education, roads not filled with buried explosives, freedom from the fear of the secret police kicking in your door at 0300 because your mother spoke out against the government. The ability to access government services without paying bribes. Our foreign policy is not perfect but we didn't ask to take the world stage is was pushed upon us by converging events.


QFT.

People who say we aren't the greatest country in the world have no clue as to what's going on outside their own little world.

I bizzitch about the government a LOT, but even I realize that overall it has been a very effective government compared to much else I see when I take a look around.


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## Master slacker (Jul 16, 2012)

Y'all are making me sound as if I don't like this country. We used to be the top of the food chain when it came to technology and innovation. Space exploration et. al inspired people to do great things and strive for better. What, in the past 20 years, has inspired the people (i.e. children) to do great things?

We have awful public education system. Health care is pretty good, but damn it's expensive. Running and clean water, reliable electricity, education, roads, etc... are all fine and dandy, but don't England, France, Germany, Sweden, Australia, S. Korea, Japan, Finland, etc... have the same? I may never have been to Germany, Sweden, Japan, Australia, or S. Korea, but I know several people who live or have lived there, and they don't worry about an 0300 wake up call.

For those who believe our education system plays no factor in the awesomeness equation, say so. To me, it is HUGE. In a couple of years, I'll most likely be plunking down $5k / year per child to get a good education. On top of this, I'll be paying taxes to support the less than adequate public school system here. For every child I send to school (private), I'm basically paying for two children (1 public and 1 private). Is that right???

Bribes... who in their right mind thinks even their local governments are clean?

People honestly need to realize that we're accepting our current performance as "good enough". Do you *really* believe this is good enough?


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## Kephart P.E. (Jul 16, 2012)

I live in Portland Oregon, a veritable bastion of liberal/communist/socialist thought and funny thing is, regarding education the prevailing thoughts are downright Republican.

Our PDX public schools are not good at all, for a variety of reasons, but the main issue standing in the way of fixing them is that the Teachers Union is quite strong and the crappy school situation has gone on for a couple of decades now.

The solution which the private sector.. has fixed (for some) is most parents send their kids to private school, at least those that can afford it.

I will be joining them. While I wish we could fix the problem for everyone, I am not making my son pay that price.


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## maryannette (Jul 16, 2012)

:unitedstates:

I cannot think of any other country I want to live in, therefore, in my opinion, USA is the greatest country in the world.

I also believe that anyone who thinks there is a better country should move to it.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2012)

The problem real with the education system isn't lack of funding, poor teachers, top heavy administrations, teacher's unions, etc, etc. These are issues, sure, but not the real problem.

The real problem with education is children who come to school ill-prepared and/or unwilling to learn.

That's a societal problem, not a political one.


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## rktman (Jul 16, 2012)

That was a great speech by a great actor....

But this is precisely the shit sandwich we are half way through now. (Voting for &amp; believing in an actor giving a well prepared speech)

Like many, I haven't been to other countries, so I can't say we are the best - but I will work to make it the best that I can. Recent dealings with border towns near Mexico make me thankful for what we have.

BTW, We need to remove media from the equation if anything will ever get done again.


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## Master slacker (Jul 16, 2012)

Merrimac said:


> :unitedstates:
> 
> I cannot think of any other country I want to live in, therefore, in my opinion, USA is the greatest country in the world.
> 
> *I also believe that anyone who thinks there is a better country should move to it*.


That's not the point of why I posted the video. We (the USA ) used to be THE automakers, THE space explorers, THE dreamers... Now, right now, we pander to the mediocre and ignore the great. I've always loved learning. I was inspired by people to learn and dream of great things and to make myself as great as I can be - minus the spamming of EB, of course.

Maybe I'm a sucker. Maybe I'm easily influenced by others with their neat graphics and cool voices. But I've been watching NOVA programs (now and as a kid) and seen videos by Neil deGrasse Tyson that make me think, "How have we arrived here (today) from there (1980'ish)?". Few people dream nowadays. Look at the lack of interest in math and science in the education system from preschool through college. Few people care about this difficult path through education.

When 6 year olds think "engineering", what job do you think they envision? How about "math"? "physics"? "chemistry"?

Do kids care?


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

Higgs Boson.

/&gt;http://www.texastribune.org/texas-taxes/budget/higgs-boson-discovery-may-have-been-possible-texas/


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> Merrimac said:
> 
> 
> > :unitedstates:
> ...


You've fallen into the trap of the media telling you how awful things are. Good news doesn't sell.

Things are better than they used to be. Much better in cases.

Do we have problems; yeah, we do. But worrying about whether or not kids care is definitely a first world problem.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 16, 2012)

Merrimac said:


> I also believe that anyone who thinks there is a better country should move to it.


And if I believe there's a better car than the one I currently drive, does that mean I should buy it?


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## roadwreck (Jul 16, 2012)

Not really a comment on the topic, but it's really hard to take Jeff Daniels seriously in any role after this


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## Master slacker (Jul 16, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> You've fallen into the trap of the media telling you how awful things are. Good news doesn't sell.
> 
> Things are better than they used to be. Much better in cases.
> 
> Do we have problems; yeah, we do. *But worrying about whether or not kids care is definitely a first world problem.*


This is acceptance of status quo. Damn right I care whether or not mini-MS 1 and 2 care about science and education.

My MIL is a 5th and 6th grade math and science teacher. She's been doing this for almost 40 years now. She has seen a difference of kids caring over the years. Vague information for you and anyone else reading this, but it's her experience. And I wouldn't count me as being in a "trap" of the media. The mass media barely cares. What sells more hype - wars or education? public welfare or education? And does the media really want to point out that the politicians they're supporting, who push and fight tooth and nail for idiotic policies in the educational system, are idiots themselves?

The farkin' health care law was written by politicians for crying out loud and passed before it was even read. Do the politicians care?


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> Do the politicians care?


Only about getting re-elected.

Hey, I taught a couple of years, and several family members were teachers. The education system has problem, but mostly the parents.

But, I must ask you. Look back ten years. Is the world better off now? I'd say so.

So in spite of all the problems, there are enough people striving to get ahead to drag us all forward.


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## Master slacker (Jul 16, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> So in spite of all the problems, there are enough people striving to get ahead to drag us all forward.


The world is a better place, yes. But I'm not looking at the world. I'm looking at this country.

I quoted this particular sentence because it exemplifies what I have been stating. This country shouldn't be the one dragged forward. This country wasn't dragged to the moon, wasn't dragged to Skunkworks, wasn't dragged to design / construct the tallest buildings in the world.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2012)

Well, we've been to the moon, we're still building secret aircraft, and tall buildings are a 'mine's bigger than yours' vanity statement.

I still think your focusing on the negative and not seeing how things are better.

I mean, I'm cheesed at Obama axing the moon mission probably more than anyone here, but, still, I'd rather live in 2012 than 2002.

And I'd heap rather live in 2012 than 1962, when we were doing all those things you admire.


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> This country wasn't dragged to the moon...


It was somewhat dragged to the moon...Americans were given significant incentive by the Soviets who were the first to put a man in space...

I do think Americans are much more apathetic now, though. They could care less if someone who is not an American discovered the Boson Higgs particle, or a cure for cancer, or made other significant advances in engineering and science...I don't know why this change has happened, but I think it's there...


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2012)

envirotex said:


> I do think Americans are much more apathetic now, though. They could care less if someone who is not an American discovered the Boson Higgs particle, or a cure for cancer, or made other significant advances in engineering and science...*I don't know why this change has happened*, but I think it's there...


I do..oops...gotta go...American Idol's on!!!


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 16, 2012)

Someone has to Keep up with the Kardashians...


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## Master slacker (Jul 16, 2012)

I wouldn't necessarily call the Space Race a dragged-to-the-moon scenario. We dared to do something extraordinary and did it within 9 years.

Since I'm muddled in the education realm (since that's all I really know, I guess), I find it disappointing how sciences are not stressed as much as they were when I was younger. Sure it contains problems due to parents, teachers, etc..., but the *visions* set at the 20,000 foot level, if you will, just aren't there. And, without those, what dreams are coming from our kids as it pertains to the sciences?

The only thing I can do is provide the resources and opportunites for mini-MS 1 and 2 to learn and be curious about science and appreciate its worth. I just hope I can do enough.


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> I wouldn't necessarily call the Space Race a dragged-to-the-moon scenario. We dared to do something extraordinary and did it within 9 years.
> 
> Since I'm muddled in the education realm (since that's all I really know, I guess), I find it disappointing how sciences are not stressed as much as they were when I was younger. Sure it contains problems due to parents, teachers, etc..., but the *visions* set at the 20,000 foot level, if you will, just aren't there. And, without those, what dreams are coming from our kids as it pertains to the sciences?
> 
> The only thing I can do is provide the resources and opportunites for mini-MS 1 and 2 to learn and be curious about science and appreciate its worth. I just hope I can do enough.


It's pretty well documented that Yuri Gagarin's trip into space is what pissed off Kennedy enough to start the Moon Race and provided the impetus for the funding to make it to the moon less than seven years after the "We choose the moon speech."



Capt Worley PE said:


> envirotex said:
> 
> 
> > I do think Americans are much more apathetic now, though. They could care less if someone who is not an American discovered the Boson Higgs particle, or a cure for cancer, or made other significant advances in engineering and science...*I don't know why this change has happened*, but I think it's there...
> ...


You may be on to to something...Why can't we have American Idol, but for invention? I think it could work. Look at Americans' fascination with Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, and even Mark Zuckerberg and Sean Parker...


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 16, 2012)

envirotex said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > envirotex said:
> ...


There was a show on Fox a couple years back where inventors proposed buisiness ideas / innovations to investors to get off the ground. I think it lasted one season...

Edit: It's called Shark Tank and it's still running on ABC. http://www.tv.com/shows/shark-tank/


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## Master slacker (Jul 16, 2012)

envirotex said:


> Master slacker said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't necessarily call the Space Race a dragged-to-the-moon scenario. We dared to do something extraordinary and did it within 9 years.
> ...


Touche.

As far as the "i" world and "Look-at-me!-book" fascinations, these kids are glued to phones all day. I wonder if even half of these kids will make it in life.


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## EM_PS (Jul 16, 2012)

Bah - America's in great shape! We the people celebrate Independence Day &amp; snag headlines like this:

http://www.mlive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/07/man_blows_part_of_his_genitals.html


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

But then there are children like this...

/&gt;http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/news/2002/01/49716

But are there enough?


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 16, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I still think your focusing on the negative and not seeing how things are better.


A lot of people are talking about how things are better, but it's just a "feeling" type statement. HOW are things better than they were in previous generations? Having more money is no excuse because there is more money to be had (because it is printed faster now than ever before).

All of the reasons that other countries suck (bad infrastructure, repressive regimes, etc.) are only in 3rd world countries or those that are openly communist/socialist/dictatorships. There are plenty of other 1st world countries that have most, if not all, of the comforts of America. I'm not saying that there is a utopian country though. For every other country with one thing better than the US, they have one drawback. But to say that America is the greatest country in the world is a little short-sighted. This has been a trend since 9/11 towards blind patriotism, and it has led us to hemorrhage a lot of personal freedoms that made our nation the best in the world.

I know my opinion on this subject will be summarily ignored or thrashed by most on this forum, but that's fine with me.


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## Road Guy (Jul 16, 2012)

I would gather to say that a lot of people commenting here didnt watch the video......


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 16, 2012)

*raises hand*


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

Road Guy said:


> I would gather to say that a lot of people commenting here didnt watch the video......


Well that and some people may not realize that the whole discussion is based on a speech from a cable tv show, but it doesn't mean that the discussion isn't relevant...

In addition to seeing what is being passed off as science class to my own children at the elementary and secondary level, I am involved professionally with a number of college professors who are begging for qualified American graduate students to apply, but mostly they get foreign students who are taking their education back home and applying it there...

It's not good.


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## benbo (Jul 16, 2012)

^^^

Very likely there are countries with better infrastructure. But this is a big, diverse, melting pot of a country that still lets in lots of immigrants with assorted issues. I'm sure you could talk to plenty of people in Spain and France with a lot of complaints.

But the point about a dearth of scientifcally apt and curious students is pure bunk. Get over to the College Confidential website and see the type of intellectual youth this country is producing. Or read up on Intel, Siemens, TASP, the list goes on. Over 30K students applied to Harvard last year, virtually all of them capable of doing the work. Over 100K students scored above 700 on their Math SAT and around 14K scored 800. When I graduated in 1974, with about the same high school population, around 30K scored over 700. I took 5 AP exams in my jr and sr years. That was extremely rare since only about 50K students took the exams at all. These days over 2 million students enter college with AP credit.

Take a look at some of the Siemens research being performed by high school students these days. It makes the science projects of my time look like pla-do fun factory.

A lot of techncally able US students don't apply for grad school because they don't have to. They can get decent jobs without PhDs. I know a lot of them. We hired several last month.

And guess what. My dad, a Caltech grad, said the same thing about the students in my generation.

Sure, there are crappy schools. But here's a news flash, there have always been a lot of crappy schools. Maybe things are worse now at the lower end of the educational spectrum, but they are certainly as good or IMO a heckuva lot better at the upper end.


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

Are there more because they are so much smarter and well-educated, or is it because the standards are lower?

Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.

Don't get me wrong, I've seen some awesome things that young people are doing (see the link above about the kid who made a glove for translating ASL), I just don't know if there are enough students out there right now who are truly driven towards innovation to keep the US as THE leader in science and engineering...


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## benbo (Jul 16, 2012)

> Are there more because they are so much smarter and well-educated, or is it because the standards are lower?
> Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I've seen some awesome things that young people are doing (see the link above about the kid who made a glove for translating ASL), I just don't know if there are enough students out there right now who are truly driven towards innovation to keep the US as THE leader in science and engineering...


The standards are not lower. The standards are higher at the top end. It is not uncommon for kids to take Algebra II in middle school these days. That was almost unheard of in my 1970s high school . Many kids at my sons high school were taking multivariable calculus and linear algebra as juniors in high school. I have looked at old entrance exams for MIT and Harvard from the 1950s and 60s. Unless you think we need to know Greek and Latin, believe me, the standards in math and science are higher.

I've looked at archived catalogs from the UC schools. Algebra and trig were common starting subjects. Nowadays they call that remedial math.

Which professors? Where do they teach?


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

benbo said:


> Which professors? Where do they teach?


top ten, engineering


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## EM_PS (Jul 16, 2012)

envirotex said:


> Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.


Yeah well, chalk me up as being equally underwhelmed at the skill level of some of these 'PhD' professors - it ain't very pretty. No offense to you or the professors you know...


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## envirotex (Jul 16, 2012)

EM_PS said:


> envirotex said:
> 
> 
> > Those professors that I know are equally underwhelmed by the skill level of undergraduates as well.
> ...


I wouldn't disagree with that...that's part of the problem. I also know some PhD professors who are where they are because "those who can't do, teach."

Edit: I wouldn't be so worried about it if one of those PhDs had told me this...


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## engineergurl (Jul 16, 2012)

What say I, MS? I didn't get a chance to watch the vid until now... and now that I have watched it three times, I'll respond. I'm sure everyone is going to expect me to say something completely different than what I think. I'm sure that you all have seen me rant and rave about the pride that I have in this country and how I would never live anywhere else... although that it is true, there is truth in what is spoken.

I really don't think this is about education standards, it's not about the space program, it's not about our infrastructure, clean water, electricity being available... or anyone being better than the good ole' USA .

I really and honestly feel like the point is, that as a country, we have lost our humility, our generosity, our respect for others and our morals.

Take a step back and THINK about things. How bad did things get back in the 1930's before the government stepped in to start helping people? How bad are things now before they stepped in to assist? Sure, we survived a Civil War in the mid-1800's but WHY? Why was there so much support when we entered into WWII, yet so much doubt when we engaged in war following the bombing of the world trade center? How many people in this country take the easy way out and pay their student loans back when the IRS garnishes their tax refunds? How many people buy their first home when they are in their early 20's and utilize the incentive programs out there rather than save up their nickles and dimes for a down payment... and how many of those homes actually become homes rather than houses?

There are many, many, MANY people in this country that have just stopped caring. They know they will be cared for when they fail, so they give up with out trying and fail with out any effort. And communities... well, we don't have to have morals. Most don't have to help out the homeless, or the starving, or the people who are down on their luck, because the government will help them. Sometimes, I really don't think this country is all that great... when I drive around and see cars with ball sacks hanging from their bumbers, when I hire a company and they don't take pride in their work and do a shoddy job, when I see people divided between the political parties arguing over what is 'right' and 'wrong' and they preach but don't practice. I see people abuse the charities we do have. I see people go to church, and then give each other the middle finger in the parking lot. I see people who say they will do the right thing, and then turn around and do the opposite.

We are in an age where high schoolers don't have to be embarrassed at the drug store when they buy condoms because they can get them for free at the front office of the school. Kid's don't have fist fights and resolve their differences on their own, and adults don't know how to have an itelligent conversation to settle theirs. People judge each other, they have lost their tolerance for what is different naturally, and in ignorance they have forgotten to set boundaries for what is socially acceptable because they are scared of being accused of the loss of tolerance... although this usually applies for those things that are different unnaturally.

In spite of all that. Personally, I would rather live in no other place. Personally, I see the good that is there. I've mentioned elsewhere, here and there, that I'm married to the military. In the middle of a PCS, he's been in a different state for over 6 months. I'm on my own here and I see the potential for this country in so many ways. The ten people who gave up their time to come help me and pack and load up the storage/moving pods. The old men at work that have given me advice on ways to keep on keeping on. The really, really strange guy that came up and knocked on my door this weekend to let me know he had noticed some people eyeing the storage units in the driveway. My boss that said I didn't actually have to give a two week notice. My neighbor who brought over food because she knows I don't have anything to cook with. My friends at the gym, my comrades who support me thru EB or FB or in person.

These are the people that make this country great for me. I think it's unfortunate that things are so often on such a small scale. I think it's unfortunate that we often don't pull together as a larger community unless a disaster hits.

We are all in the mind-set that we deserve things. Do we really? One of the biggest things I have discussed recently, and it's because most people ask questions that will probably make me feel sorry for myself. I won't let that happen, we do what we have to do. I am not perfect. I make mistakes nearly everyday, and I look at those and say, well that was stupid, lets move on and not do that again. BUT... I wonder if more people had to suffer just a bit, how much greater this country would be. Are we the greatest country in the world because we don't have much suffering? Or are we becoming weak because of that?


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## benbo (Jul 16, 2012)

> top ten, engineering


Professors are a bellyaching lot. Especially at top schools where they really don't want to teach undergrads anyway.

The habit of professors complaing they teach a bunch of incompetent nincompoops is nothing new. It was nonsense then, it's nonsense now.

http://tech.mit.edu/...cuafa2.27n.html

As far as not enough STEM students, and STEM students of low quality, that's not my experience hiring over the past couple years. We get a lot of incredible applicants, and we're turning away kids with very high GPAs in double majors from UC Berkeley and UCLA.

If anything there is a glut of STEM majors these days. I think it may be worse in Biology, which is still a very popular major at many school, primarlily because of kids hoping to geti nto the limited number of med school slots. When they can't get in, there aren't enough places in biotech or academia for them.

One problem that does exist is that many of the smartest kids (even physics or engineering students) choose to seek the mother lode in investment banking or management consulting. That's unfortunate, but it's a free world.

But anyway, this is my experience. I've had this same exact discussion many times over my 30+ year working career. I don't suspect I'll change anybody's mind. I just hope there ends up being enough actual work for all these STEM majors we're begging for.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 17, 2012)

Road Guy said:


> I would gather to say that a lot of people commenting here didnt watch the video......


Videos are blocked at work and I don't get on the net at home anymore unless it is to update Netflix.

When I was teaching, I taught high school kids, tech school students, and prisoners. There were moments of hope and despair, but all through out history, it has been the genius/ambitious few that propelled the country forward. Others work on the periphery to refine and produce the work of those few.

I'm more worried about those in power (both in and out of the political realm) using their muscle to hinder our forward progress than I am a lack of people that can propel us forward.

For example, I'm still uber pi$$ed about Obama killing Constellation, but danged if it doesn't look like the private sector is picking up the slack (and I apologize to wil for comments I made to him on the subject...in retrospect he appears t have been correct on that front) and I wouldn't be surprised to see SpaceX on the moon before the Chinese. IF the government doesn't eff them over some way.

MS, you're the most important part of mini-MS's education, and he'll do well with your support. THAT'S the real problem with education...kids whose parents don't care. it is gonna be tougher when he's a teen, because of the peer pressure, and he'll stumble, but with your support and a sense of curiosity instilled, I have no doubt he'll do well.


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## Road Guy (Jul 17, 2012)

What struck me was that most US Taxpayers just dont have the stomach for investing in anything to help maintain existing infrastructure, let alone anything new that will help them down the road...

This same feeling permeates throughout every type of undertaking.... such to the talk of privatize NASA.. serioulsy??

Of course I am the engineer who daily seeks to find work outside of this field so maybe I am the crazy one!


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 17, 2012)

Road Guy said:


> What struck me was that most US Taxpayers just dont have the stomach for investing in anything to help maintain existing infrastructure, let alone anything new that will help them down the road...


I think that comes from the governments' poor showing on such projects recently. Seems they can't get anything accomplished without cost and time over-runs of at least 50%.

People are becoming less and less trustful of the government.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 17, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Road Guy said:
> 
> 
> > What struck me was that most US Taxpayers just dont have the stomach for investing in anything to help maintain existing infrastructure, let alone anything new that will help them down the road...
> ...


especially when they read this in the newspapers:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_19220140


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## mudpuppy (Jul 17, 2012)

engineergurl said:


> What say I, MS? I didn't get a chance to watch the vid until now... and now that I have watched it three times, I'll respond. I'm sure everyone is going to expect me to say something completely different than what I think. I'm sure that you all have seen me rant and rave about the pride that I have in this country and how I would never live anywhere else... although that it is true, there is truth in what is spoken.
> 
> I really don't think this is about education standards, it's not about the space program, it's not about our infrastructure, clean water, electricity being available... or anyone being better than the good ole' USA .
> 
> ...


World War II is completely different than the WTC. And I totally disagree that we have stopped caring. Consider WWII. Up until Pearl Harbor, the U.S. was actively practicing isolationism. By the time we got involved, Hitler had taken over most of Europe. As a country we had deliberatiely decided we didn't care. This would be unfathomable today. As soon as tanks the tanks rolled out of Germany we'd be there in a heartbeat. In contrast to your claim, I think we care more now that we did in the late 30's.

In my opinion the response to WTC shows how much MORE patriotic we are now than we were than back then. Yes, the country pulled together in a united effort after Pearl Harbor, but that was in response to a different kind of threat, one where someone might actually invade and take over this country by force. If that were to happen again today I'm sure our response would be the same.


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## MGX (Jul 18, 2012)

I haven't seen the video but if America isn't the greatest country then which one is?


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## Master slacker (Jul 18, 2012)

Again, this is not about "which one is the greatest". This is about Americans blindly believing that the USA is the greatest in every aspect when, in actuality, we're not doing very well in the most critical areas. Watching the video help.


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## benbo (Jul 18, 2012)

^^^

The video is classic Aaron Sorkin liberal dialog, masquerading as some sort of refreshingly honest political heroism. A good deal of it is nonsense, or frankly irrelevant to the "greatness" of a country. For the rest, my question is... "Okay, so we have low literacy, what are we supposed to do about it? " Sorkin's answer - whether he says it or not - get past those mean conservatives and spend more Federal money.

The real tell here is that crap about a "war on the poor."

But there is good news. We have an election coming up. If you agree with the sentiments and political position of the author who wrote this dialog you can vigorously support the current President, then we'll increase those taxes on the rich and get to work on those math abilites. If that's what people think is the right course of action, then it should prevail That's one good thing about this country.

If you believe what made this country great in the past and what will make it great in the future is to generally get out of the people's way (as in what those "evil idiot" conservatives said in the video clip), leave the schools systems generally up to local control or give kids options through school choice, then you vote the other way.

We'll probably end up with some sort of hybrid anyway.


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## Master slacker (Jul 18, 2012)

I really don't care about any political motivation in the video. It nicely pointed out the point that most people in this country currently view the country as untouchable. For the most part, despite any liberal intents, the points conveyed are an accurate portrayal of this country's state.


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## benbo (Jul 18, 2012)

> I really don't care about any political motivation in the video. It nicely pointed out the point that most people in this country currently view the country as untouchable. For the most part, despite any liberal intents, the points conveyed are an accurate portrayal of this country's state.


The video is a laundry list of unmiportant statistics mixed in with more than a few mischaracterizations of opinion as facts.

Anybody in any country (including ours) can come up with a valid list of complaints. The question is whether the system in place is adequate to address the problems, and whether there is an appropriate method in place to change the system if it isn't. That, along with the ethos of the people is what makes a country great (again, I avod the term "greatest"). I don't think any of that has changed significantly. THat's a whole lot more important than the percentage of kids who can perform partial fraction expansion.

And of course, the question of what you would do about it is always relevant if you want to bellyache. I'm sure Sorkin's character would continue to lambast the "presence of money in politics" or "gridlock". Unless he did and I just fell asleep before that.

Edit: I took out the mention of the President because that belongs in the political forum. Sorry about that. Whenever I read Sorkin's work I always think politics.


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## Master slacker (Jul 18, 2012)

benbo said:


> But I sincerely hope you get your choice of President Obama in November,so he can get our government to work fixing all that ails America


Excuse me? :jerkit:



Master slacker said:


>


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## benbo (Jul 18, 2012)

^^^

Really, I didn't hear the speech where Mitt Romney claimed we were at war with the poor like Jeff Daniels did in your favorite speech of all time. But keep up the important work that your smiley is performing there. That should surely bring about the utopia you seek. At least for you.


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## Master slacker (Jul 18, 2012)

benbo said:


> ^^^
> 
> Really, I didn't hear the speech where Mitt Romney claimed we were at war with the poor like Jeff Daniels did in your favorite speech of all time. But keep up the important work that your smiley is performing there. That should surely bring about the utopia you seek. At least for you.




Civilized discussion to launching meritless, personal attacks plan has been a success. Congratulations.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm just glad his wrath was directed elsewhere this time. I saw that Benbo had posted in this thread, and assumed he was bashing me.


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## benbo (Jul 18, 2012)

MS - Thanks. That means a lot coming (no pun intended) from a fellow whose intellectual colloquy includes a jerk-off smiley.

Wil- I suspect I actually agree more with you than with Aaron Sorkin.


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## Master slacker (Jul 18, 2012)

:lmao:

:jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit: :jerkit:


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## DVINNY (Jul 19, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> And I'd heap rather live in 2012 than 1962, when we were doing all those things you admire.


I don't know.

I many times wonder and think that it would be better to have been born 50 years earlier. Back before we became mass consumers. Back when a family could live a decent middle class life off of one income. They didn't have 4 cars, 5 flat screens, and 5 laptops, but it appears to me, that people had a pretty good quality of life without the pressures and stressers of today.

And, I blame the "gotta have it now" society that cell phones and the internet have created.


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## cdcengineer (Jul 19, 2012)

^ No doubt. True about living off one income. With all the advances we've had in the past 50 years, it seems like people have to work twice as hard for less (more stuff, but less quality of life). Heck, most folks have to have daycare watch their kids full-time b/c wives have to work.

My friend in Australia seems to have it alright with his single income and wife working. They have all the modern conveniences without sacrificing too much family time.

Let's blame inflation! Or Bush! Or is it Obama?


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## Master slacker (Jul 20, 2012)

cdcengineer said:


> Heck, most folks have to have daycare watch their kids full-time b/c wives have to work.
> Let's blame inflation! Or Bush! Or is it Obama?


I have to argue with that first point. I don't believe that "the wife has to work" is always the case. I think it's more "the wife chooses to work" that more so fits the bill. My wife hasn't worked in a few years, stays home with two kids, we pay student loans (lots) and mortgage, and save for retirement only on my non-fatty income. If the mother and family *really* want the mother to stay home with the kids, it's entirely doable. Unfortunately, many of those who are able don't want to make those sacrifices for the kids' benefit. My 2 cents.

It must have been nice, 50 years ago, to have mom at home, safe streets, better than adequate neighborhood schools, and a lot less information / stress / media / distractions to worry about. Not only that, but '63 Corvettes were just coming out.

As for the second point, I whole-heartedly agree. It's gotta be Bush's fault...


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## mudpuppy (Jul 20, 2012)

^Yeah, the race riots were great too. My favorite part of the 60s.


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## envirotex (Jul 22, 2012)

This.

"...a growing manufacturing sector encourages craftsmanship and that craftsmanship is, if not a birthright, then a vital ingredient of the American self-image as a can-do, inventive, we-can-make-anything people."

http://www.nytimes.c...?pagewanted=all


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## YMZ PE (Jul 23, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> I don't believe that "the wife has to work" is always the case. I think it's more "the wife chooses to work" that more so fits the bill.


Thank you MS, I quite agree.



Master slacker said:


> It must have been nice, 50 years ago, to have mom at home, safe streets, better than adequate neighborhood schools, and a lot less information / stress / media / distractions to worry about.


I agree the pace of life was different back then, but let's not become nostalgic over some false dreamland America that never existed. It's great to hold ourselves to a higher standard and never become complacent, but I think idealizing the past - and implementing policies that try to take us back to the past while denying the reality of our present - is the wrong way to tackle the funk we're in.

Instead of striving to reverse time and take America back to the good ol' days, we should be looking at the emerging power centers of the world - China, India, Brazil, etc. - to see what they're doing right, and figure out how we can beat their asses technologically. I think we're presently doing a good job at this, but we could definitely do better if more Americans cared to contribute.


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## Dleg (Jul 23, 2012)

^It's all about the "don't care". Very few people give a shit anymore. Most people just want to play with their i-phones, watch you-tube, and "chill". Learning, science, industry, and God forbid working are just not cool now. Well, I guess they weren't before, really, but the easy life is just so much easier now.... it's even harder to interest kids in doing something hard like... learning, science, working, etc. But I think it also helped that, 50 years ago, mass media (movies, TV, books and magazines) were so much more concerned with those subjects. Nowadays, there's just so much entertainment choice that only those very few who _want_ to get exposed to anything other than Jersey Shore and whatever other nonsense people waste their time with.

I'm getting old. ld-025:


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 23, 2012)

DVINNY said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > And I'd heap rather live in 2012 than 1962, when we were doing all those things you admire.
> ...


Remember, you don't have to be a mass consumer (says the guy with two twenty year old 19" crt TVs, paid for cars, and dial up). That is a choice.



Dleg said:


> But I think it also helped that, 50 years ago, mass media (movies, TV, books and magazines) were so much more concerned with those subjects.


Yep. You had three networks and the newspaper. No need to fill a 24 hour news cycle with tales of angst and ennui.



> I'm getting old. ld-025:


You and me both, brother.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 26, 2012)

I think this blog post aligns with the point of this thread:

http://postmasculine.com/america


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## engineergurl (Jul 26, 2012)

considering the vid in the blog, was the vid that started this thread... I would agree...


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 26, 2012)

^^^ I didn't watch either video


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