# Reasons for failing PE?



## Matt-NM (Feb 17, 2008)

Well I am officially in study mode for the ME PE exam in April. Almost wish I hadn't told anybody I was taking it, since i'll have to tell them I didn't pass if that should be the unfortunate case. My questions are these...

1. To those who have taken the PE (any discipline) and come up short, what do you think were the main reasons you didn't pass? Of course not being prepared to begin with is an obvious one.

I'm kind of looking for reasons why one wouldn't pass even if they were completely prepared and felt that they couldn't have possibly done more to get ready for the exam. Is there any reason not to pass if you are fully prepared? Did anybody deal with very unexpected curveballs on the exam (whether ME or any other discipline)? Anything here would be helpful!

2. To those who have posted how many hours they studied for the exam, what percentage of those hours do you feel were actually quality, hard study hours? The reason I ask is because it seems like i'll sit there studying for 5 hours sometimes, but feel like I really only put in half of that by the time I am done. Hopefully I am not the only one whose mind wonders sometimes while studying. I am keeping a study log and am trying to be as honest as possible with myself as to how much time I am actually putting in. Anybody else hurtin' for motivation?

Thanks for any suggestions.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 17, 2008)

I passed on the first try so I'm not exactly in that boat, but here's my 2 cents anyway.

Even if you are totally prepared, you can still just have a good old fashioned bad day. You could get a lot of hard questions in a weak area, manage your time poorly, get flustered early and never get into a comfort zone, choke under the pressure, etc.

One of the best things that happened to me on exam day was getting 3 or 4 questions I could solve quickly and easily to start the morning. I got in a good groove and relaxed a bit.

I studied about 290 hours. I also kept a log. I counted anything that was actively done to help me pass as prep time. Looking up a regulation online or copying a table out of a book counted, reorganizing a binder or looking up a calculator finction didn't.


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## Dark Knight (Feb 17, 2008)

There is no magic formula for passing the PE test. No X amount of hours...not a number of Y practice problems. You can pass it using so many different approaches but also there are so many factors that can make you trip.

VT said all that I was thinking and more so I will keep this short and will mention one more thing that can make you fail: Overconfidence(aka arrogance)

The test is a humbling experience and should be taken seriously. I said this before and will say it again. The only thing that will give you a fair chance of passing is the hard work. Less than that is a recipe for failure.

Good luck Matt and if you have questions come back and post them. I am not a Mech but there are guys/gals here that will help. That I can promise you.


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## Desert Engineer (Feb 17, 2008)

Don’t get psyched out by the problems you can’t solve; concentrate on the ones you can solve. In essence, make sure you grab all of the low hanging fruit before you grab the ladder or start climbing the tree. Skip the hard ones and find all the problems you can solve. I usually go over tests 3 times. In the first round I solve the "easy" (to me) questions, the second round I do the mildly difficult (but I know I can solve) questions, the third round I solve the questions that I have no idea how to solve (the ones that if I had to I could guess on and I would not feel too bad about).


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 17, 2008)

Another suggestion - check your answer sheet carefully. Make sure if you got 'C' for problem 10 that you actually bubbled that in. As opposed to marking 'B' or bubbling in #11. Don't sabotage yourself out of a right answer because of rushing to fill it in.


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## Matt-NM (Feb 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the great suggestions. Is it the consensus that one should go through the entire exam right at the beginning and identify the easier problems and works those first, and then go down the line from there, as Desert Water has suggested? I always avoided this back in school because I didn't want to psyche myself out right away if I happened to see a bunch of difficult problems. I know this exam, however, is really unlike any test back in school (minus the FE).

Thanks.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 17, 2008)

^ I didn't go with that approach. I worked them in order, occasionally skipping a tough one if needed. I didn't want to burn the time it would take to pre-rate problems in advance.


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## maryannette (Feb 17, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Thanks for all the great suggestions. Is it the consensus that one should go through the entire exam right at the beginning and identify the easier problems and works those first, and then go down the line from there, as Desert Water has suggested?


A lot of people go through and rate the questions easy/hard. I did and it worked for me. The other thing I think is important is to do practice exams so you have an idea of the speed and endurance needed. Good luck, Matt.


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## Jennifer Price (Feb 17, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Thanks for all the great suggestions. Is it the consensus that one should go through the entire exam right at the beginning and identify the easier problems and works those first, and then go down the line from there, as Desert Water has suggested? I always avoided this back in school because I didn't want to psyche myself out right away if I happened to see a bunch of difficult problems. I know this exam, however, is really unlike any test back in school (minus the FE).
> Thanks.



I did this method and I think it worked well for me. I actually went through the entire portion of the AM and PM part and labeled the questions with a 1, 2 or 3 (1 being the easiest and 3 being the hardest). I also wrote in very large print the units the question was asking for to make sure I did all the conversions needed. For me, it helped me gain my confidence I went through the exam working problems b/c the first few that I worked, I knew without a doubt I had correct, which put me in the "zone" for working the rest. It also gave me a chance to read every problem before I even thought about working any of them.

When I did my practice exams, I also used this method to make sure it would help me out.

Good luck with studying and taking the exam. Be sure to post questions along the way here if you get stuck!


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## roadwreck (Feb 17, 2008)

I read through each problem in order and at least attempted to come up with a solution or identify where I may find a solution. If after looking up furhter information on the problem I found myself still unsure of how to answer the question I would write down where in my reference material I had found pertainent info (so I didn't have to look it up again) and then I'd move on to the next question. After I'd read through and answered all the 'easy' questions I'd go back through and attempt the ones I skipped.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 18, 2008)

maryannette said:


> A lot of people go through and rate the questions easy/hard. I did and it worked for me. The other thing I think is important is to do practice exams so you have an idea of the speed and endurance needed. Good luck, Matt.


Do at least one of those practice exams as a full length, simulated exam conditions setting. You will burn an entire Saturday doing it, but it's invaluable.


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## Guest (Feb 18, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Thanks for any suggestions.


As a four-time exam taker, I would say the first step in attempting to only take this exam once has been realized - you are HERE asking questions about your preparation needs. I would say that alone allows you to stand apart from other exam candidates - the ones like me who said who needs to study for an open book exam! :lmao:

On a serious note, I think if you address the following items you have done YOUR due diligence in placing yourself in a position to pass:

1. Review the exam specifications for your exam discipline. Establish a schedule to review those specifications allowing for some play in the time spent based on relative % of exam material and your familiarity with the subject.

2. ORGANIZATION! There are a number of threads that speak to organizing your materials whether it is bound notes or reference texts. Cherry-picking these threads to find what works for you is a must! I would only add that sheets that include often used conversions, equations, and other short-cuts is VERY helpful.

3. Confidence - If you have made fair attempts to address 1. and 2. then you are well on your way to successfully passing this exam. Approach your exam with confidence (not arrogance) knowing that you have done what you need for adequate preparations. Mindset and attitude ARE a major factor.

4. I agree with the triage approach for exam taking - go through the exam working easy, and marking medium and hard problems to return to later. This allows you to better manage your time and also collect your thoughts.

FWIW - when I did the first pass through the exam I passed - I only worked nine problems because I KNEW them cold. The remainder of the problems I returned to on a second or third pass. Before it was all said and done, I had whittled the problems down to 6-7 with an hour remaining. Knowing that I was controlling my pace and keeping pace with time was a reassuring.

Best of luck!

JR


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## udpolo15 (Feb 18, 2008)

VTEnviro said:


> Another suggestion - check your answer sheet carefully. Make sure if you got 'C' for problem 10 that you actually bubbled that in. As opposed to marking 'B' or bubbling in #11. Don't sabotage yourself out of a right answer because of rushing to fill it in.



I second this. I think I found 2 or 3 that I marked right in the book, but wrong on the answer sheet. Something like that can be the difference between passing and failing.

I think going through the whole test at the beginning and ranking questions is a waste of time. I did the questions in order but I outright skipped any question that I looked at and didn't have any idea or knew it was going to take a while to solve. I was also very aware when I started to spin wheels on a problem. If I hit about 3 minutes on a problem, I moved on to the next one. I found in a couple of instances that a later problem jarred my memory. Also as I went through, I marked questions based on how I felt about them. I crossed out anything I felt confident about and made notes where I want to double check something time permitting.


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## NCcarguy (Feb 18, 2008)

After 3 failures.....and then finally a ASSED2: letter.....I'm kinda an expert here!!!

After I left the exam on my 3rd attempt, I went home and started looking for questions that I could remember from the exam in an attempt to make myself feel more comfortable with the results (of course I would later find those results to be negative!)

The VERY FIRST question that I looked up in my book, a mistake that I made hit me right in the mouth, and I could NOT believe I made the mistake. It was a simple question that basically had me look on a chart in one of my recommended books for the answer....well the answer was easily found, then when I got home, I noticed the SMALL print below the chart that contained a critical adjustment to the answer......It was then I realized that being in a hurry was the reason I had failed that test.

I was smart enough to know what I was looking for, had the right book, went to the right page, looked up the correct answer.......and FAILED to pay attention to the details!!!!

The 4th time I took the test, I really took my time on EACH question....I worked them in order, occasionally skipping one and going back to it, but I paid a LOT of attention to EACH question.

Success is in the details!


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 19, 2008)

I suggest you become very familiar with the MERM and where to find equations you need in there. There is a lot of work stuff that is in the thermo section, go figure.

I wouldn't even look at the NCEES practice test until you sit down and actually do a test run. I'd do this about thre weeks before the exam. It'll give you an idea of where you need to improve before the test.

Test day, I went through and worked the problems in order, but if I got stuck or didn't see the answer I got, I marked it in the book and moved on.


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## TXengrChickPE (Feb 19, 2008)

I agree with the Captain... don't take the NCEES practice test until just a few weeks before the exam. At least in Civil, the questions on it were significantly easier than the other practice tests I worked... I think if I had looked at it first, I would have gotten over-confident and not studied enough.


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## roadwreck (Feb 19, 2008)

NCcarguy said:


> After 3 failures.....and then finally a ASSED2: letter.....I'm kinda an expert here!!!
> After I left the exam on my 3rd attempt, I went home and started looking for questions that I could remember from the exam in an attempt to make myself feel more comfortable with the results (of course I would later find those results to be negative!)
> 
> The VERY FIRST question that I looked up in my book, a mistake that I made hit me right in the mouth, and I could NOT believe I made the mistake. It was a simple question that basically had me look on a chart in one of my recommended books for the answer....well the answer was easily found, then when I got home, I noticed the SMALL print below the chart that contained a critical adjustment to the answer......It was then I realized that being in a hurry was the reason I had failed that test.
> ...


I only took the test once, but I can attest that this was probably the biggest factor between passing and failing. I found that while I was studying 99% of my mistakes were not due to not understanding the concepts or the questions, but to overlooking some of the details or just not being careful in my computations. On the exam itself I made every attempt to be as careful as I could, read and comprehend the entire question and then try to come up with a solution. Even then after the exam I knew what would keep me from passing was the silly mistakes. The months between the exam and the results give you plenty of time to agonize over your potential miscues.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2008)

roadwreck said:


> The months between the exam and the results give you plenty of time to agonize over your potential miscues.


Truer words were never stated!

JR


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 19, 2008)

> On the exam itself I made every attempt to be as careful as I could, read and comprehend the entire question and then try to come up with a solution. Even then after the exam I knew what would keep me from passing was the silly mistakes. The months between the exam and the results give you plenty of time to agonize over your potential miscues.


Right after the exam I swore I nailed it. By results time I wondered if I had done basic arithmetic right!

I too had to focus on slowly, carefully reading the questions. Sometimes I circled the unit to report the answer in since it's not listed among the choices. I'd hate to do everything right and get a problem wrong because I answered in liters when they wanted ft^3.


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## roadwreck (Feb 19, 2008)

VTEnviro said:


> Right after the exam I swore I nailed it. By results time I wondered if I had done basic arithmetic right!


I thought the exact same thing. I remember driving home after the exam feeling pretty good about my performance. In the weeks to follow that confidence dwindled to the point that by the time results started to come out I'd pretty much convinced myself I didn't pass.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 19, 2008)

^Not me. I was POSITIVE I'd failed. One of the happiest days in my life was getting the ASSED2: letter.


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## sergcanes98 (Feb 19, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Thanks for all the great suggestions. Is it the consensus that one should go through the entire exam right at the beginning and identify the easier problems and works those first, and then go down the line from there, as Desert Water has suggested? I always avoided this back in school because I didn't want to psyche myself out right away if I happened to see a bunch of difficult problems. I know this exam, however, is really unlike any test back in school (minus the FE).
> Thanks.



I did that; first thing is go thru, rate the questions as Easy Medium Hard. Work the easy ones first, mark the solution on the booklet AND the scantron sheet. Repeat the same with the Medium. Double-check that the answer on the easy and medium matches btw. the bubble sheet and ur answer, THEN tackle the hard ones. That's what worked for me this 3rd time that I passed 10940623:


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## Matt-NM (Feb 20, 2008)

Thanks for all the great suggestions. The help is very much appreciated. One thing I have decided to do different, however, is to go ahead and work through the NCESS sample problems now. I just finished working through the machine design 6-minute solutions. After working a few of the NCEES problems, I have found that I am trying to over-analyze them, and am thus not doing that great on them so far, even though they are significantly easier than the 6-minute solutions problems. Most utilize basic concepts, as opposed to some of the 6-minute problems, which are more in depth. They just have a different feel to them. So much so, IMO, that I am willing to forego using it as another practice exam to get this added, somewhat different flavor of problem in my mind. This leaves me with only one sample exam to take (Lindeburg) for practice.

As usual, any other suggestions are greatly appreciated. Good luck to everybody taking the exam in April. Also, it seems like I sometimes spend hours on these boards, when really I should be studying. I can honestly say, however, that I have changed my study plan and approach just by reading what people have done in the past and what they would do differently. Thus, I feel that every hour spent researching tips and suggestions from those who have been there will be worth it in the end. This is not a knock on actual study time, of course. That's what it all boils down to!

Good luck to all.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 21, 2008)

The bad thing with doing the NCEES stuff now is that you WILL remember the problem methodology when you retake it in a few months. It might give you a false since of security.


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## Jennifer Price (Feb 21, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Also, it seems like I sometimes spend hours on these boards, when really I should be studying.



You aren't the only one who has done this. I remember thinking to myself...well, although I am not studying, at least I am looking at stuff related to the exam...so I'm ok, right?  But this Board is a nice break from studying...you can come here to ask questions or to blow off a little steam.


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## maryannette (Feb 21, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Also, it seems like I sometimes spend hours on these boards, when really I should be studying.


If you want, we can bust you when we think you're hanging around too much. :whipping:

Seriously, I know that this site is valuable for information and tips, and also to relieve stress. Good luck and study hard. If you pass this time, you can hang out here and have fun next time instead of studying again.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 21, 2008)

I think the advice offered on this site was a big part of the reason I passed. I recommend it to anyone trying for a PE.


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## Roy T. (Feb 21, 2008)

Matt-NM said:


> Well I am officially in study mode for the ME PE exam in April. Almost wish I hadn't told anybody I was taking it, since i'll have to tell them I didn't pass if that should be the unfortunate case. My questions are these...
> 1. To those who have taken the PE (any discipline) and come up short, what do you think were the main reasons you didn't pass? Of course not being prepared to begin with is an obvious one.
> 
> I'm kind of looking for reasons why one wouldn't pass even if they were completely prepared and felt that they couldn't have possibly done more to get ready for the exam. Is there any reason not to pass if you are fully prepared? Did anybody deal with very unexpected curveballs on the exam (whether ME or any other discipline)? Anything here would be helpful!
> ...


I might add, and this really doesn't apply to you but perhaps others, take the easiest exam offered. I wouldn't recommend that anyone take the Struc. 1 exam before passing the Civil. Some may disagree with this, but the most important thing is getting that cert.


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## kevo_55 (Feb 21, 2008)

^^ Too late!


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## Roy T. (Feb 22, 2008)

and how many times did you take the stuc 1 test kevo? be honest. with a 40% pass rate, it is a crap shoot, some will get lucky, most won't. and with so much riding on just the license, it just isn't worth the chance.

I am doing public service here, beleive me.

Also, they are going to stop offering struc 1 altogether in 3 years and it will be interesting to see how those who only passed str 1 are classified as PEs. Not civil and not structural... then I am a Gigantic DoucheBag


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## cocoloco (Feb 22, 2008)

For those going for the Mechanical Exam, be VERY CAREFUL with questions that ask what is the 'most nearly' answer. In my experience, if you are not pretty close on your answer and there seems to be a 'kind of close' answer, double check- I noticed that misleading answers can get the best of you VERY OFTEN if you are not careful... For example, some answers will be close when calculating mixed air temperatures with different humidity ratios, etc. I noticed usually you will get close answers but they are looking for conditions using mass flow rates for which you took into consideration differing specific volumes for finding mass flow rate instead of assuming one density of .075 lb/cf. Watch out for these, you may think you got the problem right and you will be wrong...


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## Aaron (Feb 22, 2008)

VTEnviro said:


> maryannette said:
> 
> 
> > A lot of people go through and rate the questions easy/hard. I did and it worked for me. The other thing I think is important is to do practice exams so you have an idea of the speed and endurance needed. Good luck, Matt.
> ...


I think a simulated full-day exam might really only be beneficial if the exam situation itself is likely to stress you out or if you get nervous in such settings. If you don't get nervous or don't tend to lose focus under the pressure of an exam setting, it probably would be better to just go through practice tests in a comfortable environment at your own leisure. Personally, I find myself retaining more that way.

For the October exam (I passed first try), I had ordered the NCEES sample exam booklet among other things. As I went through it, I realized I had no clue how to do most of the problems and it kind of disturbed me. I had studied CERM and it's practice problems already, and the NCEES sample exam was meant as a diagnostic in the last week before the exam. I bombed it, but I discovered that I only didn't know how to solve them because I was making the problems more complicated than they needed to be. The CERM and it's practice problems were all complicated and involved, unlike the actual exam. Most of the questions in the sample exam were easily solvable with a quick calculation. So if there's anything the sample exam taught me, it was to look for the simplest solution.

As for overall studying tips, I used the CERM but skipped the body of the text and just went straight to the practice problems. If there was a problem about a topic I didn't know, then I would turn to that section of the book and read the text on it until I knew enough to attempt to solve the problem. After solving them all, I'd then check the answers and discover the correct way to solve the problems I got wrong. Then I'd go back and redo the problems I missed. After the CERM, I did the same thing with Six-Minute Solutions and the NCEES Sample Exam in the last week before the exam.

The only caveat with that method is that when you go back and redo the problems you missed, after having checked your answers, you have to keep in mind that you are trying to remember how to solve the problem, not memorize the answer. Ultimately, you should be able to go back through all your practice problems or sample exams and resolve them all correctly by remembering the correct methods and not through rote memory of the answers.

Finally, I did not rate my exam questions by difficulty, I just solved them in order. I can not determine the difficulty of a question without first reading and evaluating it in my mind, and by that time I'm already half way to the answer. If I'm completely stumped, I can just skip it. You can not tell the true difficulty of a problem at a glance. Some questions are short and appear simple, but are deceptively complex. Some questions fill the page and include confusing diagrams, but you only need to multiply two numbers together. Most of the problem is just ferreting out the relevant information from what they tell you. Once you've done that, you can determine the difficulty but by then you're almost done. Why not just finish it?


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## kevo_55 (Feb 22, 2008)

Roy T. said:


> and how many times did you take the stuc 1 test kevo? be honest. with a 40% pass rate, it is a crap shoot, some will get lucky, most won't. and with so much riding on just the license, it just isn't worth the chance.
> I am doing public service here, beleive me.
> 
> Also, they are going to stop offering struc 1 altogether in 3 years and it will be interesting to see how those who only passed str 1 are classified as PEs. Not civil and not structural... then I am a Gigantic DoucheBag


I passed the SE1 on my 3rd try. I 100% believe that it is tougher than the SE2.

It really depends on your state for which exam you should take. Most states only have a general PE license. Other states have an SE license and multiple exams must be passed prior to licensure.

From what I'm hearing, the SE1 and SE2 will be mearged into a 16 hour 2 day exam. In order to pass this exam, you must pass both sections. If you fail one section then you must retake everything next time. In 5 years, I'd expect this to be the norm for structural engineering licensure.


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## jmbeck (Feb 23, 2008)

kevo_55 said:


> I passed the SE1 on my 3rd try. I 100% believe that it is tougher than the SE2.
> It really depends on your state for which exam you should take. Most states only have a general PE license. Other states have an SE license and multiple exams must be passed prior to licensure.
> 
> From what I'm hearing, the SE1 and SE2 will be mearged into a 16 hour 2 day exam. In order to pass this exam, you must pass both sections. If you fail one section then you must retake everything next time. In 5 years, I'd expect this to be the norm for structural engineering licensure.



Glad I didn't go Structural!

I may try to talk people out of it too.


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## fmullner (Feb 24, 2008)

This is just my 2 cents, but there are a few things that I thought really helped when I took the exam.

1. Be familiar with all your references. I didn't tab mine, but I knew what was in them and was able to use the indexes in each one to help me find what I needed quickly.

2. There will be three kinds of problems on the exam. Ones that you know cold or with very little work, ones that require significant work and/or educated guessing, and ones that you have no clue on. I didn't go through the exam and rate the questions before I worked them. It was apparent which kind of question it was as soon as I read it. The point is, knock out the easy questions first, then put the impossible questions aside, then spend the bulk of your time working on the problems that require your effort. That was my basic strategy and I am convinced that is what allowed me to pass the exam.

3. Relax. At some point you have to embrace the zen aspect of the PE and realize that you are going to take this exam, get some questions right, get some questions wrong, and you will either pass or fail. Beyond an honest effort at preparation, there is nothing more that you can do. There is no magic formula for passing, and no amount of studying will guarantee a passing grade either. Apply yourself to the material and dedicate a healthy (but not obsessive) amount of time to it.

So that's my advice: Study hard. Peace out.

Hope this helps.


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## JunkerJorg (Feb 26, 2008)

In the morning session, I simply worked the test front to back, skipping the questions where the answer or method didn't pop into my head right off. In the afternoon, I flipped through the whole section and started with the easiest ones, to get my brain going again, (about 4 or 5 problems) then went from front to back again skipping the hardest ones.

I had almost an hour to re-check and re-work morning session. I had about 10 minutes left to check work in the afternoon.

Sometimes a question appeared easy on the surface, but was, in truth, quite difficult.


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## SE2B (Feb 27, 2008)

kevo_55 said:


> I passed the SE1 on my 3rd try. I 100% believe that it is tougher than the SE2.
> It really depends on your state for which exam you should take. Most states only have a general PE license. Other states have an SE license and multiple exams must be passed prior to licensure.
> 
> From what I'm hearing, the SE1 and SE2 will be mearged into a 16 hour 2 day exam. In order to pass this exam, you must pass both sections. If you fail one section then you must retake everything next time. In 5 years, I'd expect this to be the norm for structural engineering licensure.



Where did you guys hear about the SE1 and SE2 being merged into a 2 hour exam? Any idea to what happens to someone who has just passed the SE1 and not the SE2 before this merger happens? I would think that someone who only passed the SE1 would be screwed and have to take them both again. I have already failed the SE1 once and after the day comes when I pass it I had hoped to take the SE2 a year or two down the line. I am now thinking forget it...I should just take the civil structural instead because I would be upset if my SE1 was worthless and I am not even considered a PE after this whole merger goes down.


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## kevo_55 (Feb 27, 2008)

^^ The merger was talked about in the NCEES newsletter maybe 3-4 months ago. It was also talked about in the NSPE magazine around the same time.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 27, 2008)




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