# At what point does experience matter more than your major in college/



## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm looking for some career advice here. I've been in the MEP Engineering field for 5 years, since graduating college with a degree in Math. My official title is "Mechanical Designer" but what that basically means is "CAD guy". I also do load calcs, static pressure calcs, survey work, and generally don't work from redline markups like a straight "cad guy" would, but my primary role on projects is the drawings, and I work for a senior engineer. Meanwhile in my company there are kids straight out of school with engineering degrees that are doing their own designs, working under project managers and department heads, which is what I want to be doing. They've told me I'd need to get an Engineering degree to move up to that position, so I've been taking classes at night that are pre-requisites for grad school and I'm trying to get in to a MSME program. If that falls through my backup plan would be a BSME degree which would be my second BS degree, but either way it's going to take three more years to finish taking classes at night, and I feel I'm ready to design my own systems now. I passed the FE exam in a state where they don't make you wait to graduate to give it to you, so I am a registered EIT

So I'm trying to get a sense for whether what I'm asking for is reasonable. I plan on getting my resume out there to see for myself, but not until after I get in to a Master's program so I don't have to interview looking like an undergrad. In the meantime I'm looking for some input on what other people have experienced and witnessed. In every state, with enough experience you can get your PE without any college degree, but you need to show you have experience doing actual designing, so there must be some point where your experience starts to count for something. My question is when? If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?


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## willsee (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> So I'm trying to get a sense for whether what I'm asking for is reasonable. I plan on getting my resume out there to see for myself, but not until after I get in to a Master's program so I don't have to interview looking like an undergrad. In the meantime I'm looking for some input on what other people have experienced and witnessed. *In every state, with enough experience you can get your PE without any college degree, but you need to show you have experience doing actual designing*, so there must be some point where your experience starts to count for something. My question is when? If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?


I'm almost 100% positive that this isn't true.


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 23, 2011)

If you were calculating and figuring then you were engineering and not just CAD. It counts for experience. Some states allow math and science degrees so long as there was enough math involved for PE. Contact your state and go get your PE!


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 23, 2011)

You'd better get an engineering degree if that's what you want to do. Math degree won't cut it.


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

willsee said:


> tim1981 said:
> 
> 
> > So I'm trying to get a sense for whether what I'm asking for is reasonable. I plan on getting my resume out there to see for myself, but not until after I get in to a Master's program so I don't have to interview looking like an undergrad. In the meantime I'm looking for some input on what other people have experienced and witnessed. *In every state, with enough experience you can get your PE without any college degree, but you need to show you have experience doing actual designing*, so there must be some point where your experience starts to count for something. My question is when? If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?
> ...


generally 12 or 15 years experience

http://www.ppi2pass.com/ppi/PPIInfo_pg_map-usalink.html


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## csb (Jun 23, 2011)

Not true in my state:



> Section 1. Application Requirements for Engineers and Land Surveyors.
> 
> (a) All individuals seeking registration as a professional engineer must possess four (4) years of experience after obtaining a bachelor's degree in an ABET/EAC accredited curriculum or equivalent, prior to seeking registration.





> Section 6.Engineer-in-Training Registration Requirements.
> 
> (a) An applicant for engineer-in-training registration shall be of good moral character and repute, and
> 
> ...





> Section 7. Professional Engineer Registration Requirements.
> 
> (a) An applicant for registration as a professional engineer shall be of good moral character and repute, be registered as an engineer-in-training pursuant to The Act and meet the examination and other requirements of this rule.
> 
> ...


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

SuperAlpha said:


> If you were calculating and figuring then you were engineering and not just CAD. It counts for experience. Some states allow math and science degrees so long as there was enough math involved for PE. Contact your state and go get your PE!


In my state I'd need 12 years experience before I can take the PE, or 4 years experience after receiving a BSME which will take 3 more years. Either way it will be 7 more years (5 years I already have + 7 more = 12 years, eligible by experience or 5 + 3 more to complete BSME + 4 more). So in a sense the BSME isn't worth anything as far as the PE is concerned. Until that day comes, do I have a chance elsewhere to work as an EIT doing his own design?


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## willsee (Jun 23, 2011)

Illinois:

Required experience: EAC Eng degree + 4 yrs exp; MS Eng degree + 3 yrs exp; PhD Eng degree + 2 yrs exp; non-EAC 4-yr Eng degree or related science degree + 8 yrs exp

Kentucky:

Required experience: EAC Eng degree + 4 yrs exp


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## csb (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> generally 12 or 15 years experiencehttp://www.ppi2pass.com/ppi/PPIInfo_pg_map-usalink.html


But many of those states require an ABET-accredited engineering degree plus that experience.


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

willsee said:


> Illinois:Required experience: EAC Eng degree + 4 yrs exp; MS Eng degree + 3 yrs exp; PhD Eng degree + 2 yrs exp; non-EAC 4-yr Eng degree or related science degree + 8 yrs exp
> 
> Kentucky:
> 
> Required experience: EAC Eng degree + 4 yrs exp


So what is your point? That there are a few states without no experience-only option? Okay, I should have said "most" states not "all" states. Either way there is clear precedent for advancing to that level through experience alone.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jun 23, 2011)

The way I understand CO law, it requires 8 years of "progressive engineering" experience, of which a BS can be used for 4 years and a MS can be used for an additional 1 year. Education and work experience can't be earned concurrently (ie 1 year of co-op work while full-time student = 1 year, not 1 year of school + 1 year work)


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## willsee (Jun 23, 2011)

Well you shouldn't send out resumes saying you're an engineer because you aren't.

Have you talked to your boss about the situation? It seems you have and they have given you their answer.

At my company on the electrical side, everyone does their own design but only my boss (PE) and a senior designer (20+ years experience) write specs, go to owner meetings, review drawings etc. On the mechanical side there are 4 engineers who do the design portion (selecting equipment, load calcs, whatever else mechanical people do). This has been typical in my experience at 2 MEP firms.


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## csb (Jun 23, 2011)

I would not expect a lot of responses from companies, but I know others on the board have non-engineering degrees and are now licensed. It seems like it would be easier to be almost complete with an actual engineering degree and selling yourself as an engineer than going off of 5-years of experience, which isn't huge.


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

Dexman PE said:


> The way I understand CO law, it requires 8 years of "progressive engineering" experience, of which a BS can be used for 4 years and a MS can be used for an additional 1 year. Education and work experience can't be earned concurrently (ie 1 year of co-op work while full-time student = 1 year, not 1 year of school + 1 year work)


Thanks for the input everyone, but I think we're getting off topic here. I understand what I need to do to get my PE, and it's going to take a while. What I'm trying to figure out is how to best position myself now, not what I need to do to get the PE. I'm looking for a job doing my own design as opposed to helping someone else with their design, similar to what an EIT with an Engineering degree would be doing. Have you met anyone who was able to get that type of job with a degree in math, physics, or something similar? If so how many years of experience did they have before reaching that level?


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

willsee said:


> Well you shouldn't send out resumes saying you're an engineer because you aren't.


Are you just trying to argue with me? I never said i was sending out resumes saying I am an Engineer, I said I was going to send out my resume looking for a job where I do my own design. It's common practice in my state for degreed EITs to call themselves Engineers without their PE so yes, I will say that I am looking for a job as an Engineer on the resume. I'm not interested in arguing over semantics of who is and isn't an engineer, lets move the conversation away from this topic because it's not what my question was about.


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## willsee (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?


I wasn't trying to argue with you...but this was in your original post.


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

csb said:


> I would not expect a lot of responses from companies, but I know others on the board have non-engineering degrees and are now licensed. It seems like it would be easier to be almost complete with an actual engineering degree and selling yourself as an engineer than going off of 5-years of experience, which isn't huge.


Thanks, that is helpful. I do plan on continuing with school even though I could technically get the PE in my state just as quickly without it. That's why I'm waiting to get into a master's program before I start looking. I think once I'm in that puts me at the same level academically as someone with a BSME since most of my peers in class would have BSME degrees. So I should be able to get a better job while I'm doing the MSME program, and not have to continue doing CAD until I finish the program. Would you agree?


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## snickerd3 (Jun 23, 2011)

He is not arguing with you. He is just restating a point that is brought up a lot on this board. Depending on the state, which I don't believe you have stated. There are legal ramifications for misrepresenting oneself as an engineer. Some states are strict others are more lax.

Back to you question, I think that will vary GREATLY on the company. Building up time at one company may get you the opportunity there but without the degree others may not let you do more than what you are currently doing regardless of how long you have doing it. The only way to know is to apply for jobs you think you qualify for and let them tell you if your experience is acceptable. I would list being Engineer intern not engineer though on resumes, or else you could get into misrepresenting yourself issues. If it were for state employement that could prevent you from ever beign able to apply for a state job again.


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

willsee said:


> tim1981 said:
> 
> 
> > If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?
> ...


Exactly, I am looking for a job as an Engineer, I'm not claiming that I already am one. Like I said it is common practice in my state for EITs with BSME degrees to have the title "Engineer". There is a distinction between that and a PE. If I say I am looking for a job as a Designer, they're going to read it as looking for a job doing CAD. The point is it's just semantics. I don't care what my title is, I just want to do something more technical than drawing pictures on the computer. My question was about my chances of getting that job, not what it technically should be called.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?


Speaking from an electrical engineering aspect and not knowing your location, my opinion would be that you will have difficulty getting responses from employers for an engineering position. I would say that ALL positions I've previously applied for that had "engineer" as part of the job title required a 4-year engineering degree. You may be able to "sell" yourself to an employer by demonstrating your abilities and referencing various projects you've worked on. But this will vary LARGELY on the particular company you are applying to.


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 23, 2011)

FYI - we hire designers and they "engineer". Since most of the stuff we design is also manufactured by us, we are usually exempt from the PE requirement.


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## mizzoueng (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> Exactly, I am looking for a job as an Engineer, I'm not claiming that I already am one. Like I said it is common practice in my state for EITs with BSME degrees to have the title "Engineer". There is a distinction between that and a PE. If I say I am looking for a job as a Designer, they're going to read it as looking for a job doing CAD. The point is it's just semantics. I don't care what my title is, I just want to do something more technical than drawing pictures on the computer. My question was about my chances of getting that job, not what it technically should be called.


i think the issue here is that you are applying for jobs as an engineer. In all reality, you are saying you are an engineer by applying to that position. It would be the same if I applied for a position as an accountant, even though I have an engineering degree. What you would want to look at is the requirements for the position. Most of the time an engineering position requires an engineering degree.

Now thats not to say you cannot apply. What you would need to do it write a really good cover letter explaining that you have a Math degree, have experience at a MEP firm, and are pursuing the BSME degree on your own time and will be completed with it in X months. Months always seem to work better. If you say "2 years", that sounds really far away, but if you say "20 months", people are more apt to think of it as short term.

Honestly I think you might have a hard time. There are a lot of out-of-work engineers, graduates, etc etc etc. Companies have their pick of the litter right now. If you company is willing, see if they will help with the costs of school and stick it out. Its not the design you want to do, but its still good experience. It may be different where you are, but I value the advise of my drafters/designers (CAD guys) as I can draw it on paper, but assembling it in CAD puts a whole new light on it and they tend to know if things go together well or not. Plus, you can make some good contacts at your current position that can help you in the long run.


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## csb (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > I would not expect a lot of responses from companies, but I know others on the board have non-engineering degrees and are now licensed. It seems like it would be easier to be almost complete with an actual engineering degree and selling yourself as an engineer than going off of 5-years of experience, which isn't huge.
> ...


I'm not so sure I actually agree. I think you'll definitely be able to get a better job WITH the MSME, but not while pursuing it.

Are you unhappy with your current employment and really wanting out? Can you manage to start a new job and pursue a Masters degree?


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## momech (Jun 23, 2011)

This sounds like a situation where to find a new "engineer" job, you'll have to network your way into it. You can't just apply for a job posted on a job board, because you have to check the 'Math" box and not the "Mechanical Engineering" box for your education. I think what you're looking for is a position with a small firm that doesn't specifically have a published opening right now, but would hire the right person if he/she came knocking. It just may take a lot of knocking to find that company. As a former GM at a small manufacturing company, your situation would have been attractive to me. You didn't take the direct route, but you seem to have figured out what you want to do now. Additionally, you have gotten the grunt work experience that will make you appreciate the lead engineer role more. Just my $0.02.


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## willsee (Jun 23, 2011)

Another thing

After you get your degree/PE you might have to leave your company anyway...as they could potentially still view you as the 'non-engineer guy' and continue to treat you the same.


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## cdcengineer (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> I'm looking for some career advice here. I've been in the MEP Engineering field for 5 years, since graduating college with a degree in Math. My official title is "Mechanical Designer" but what that basically means is "CAD guy". I also do load calcs, static pressure calcs, survey work, and generally don't work from redline markups like a straight "cad guy" would, but my primary role on projects is the drawings, and I work for a senior engineer. Meanwhile in my company there are kids straight out of school with engineering degrees that are doing their own designs, working under project managers and department heads, which is what I want to be doing. They've told me I'd need to get an Engineering degree to move up to that position, so I've been taking classes at night that are pre-requisites for grad school and I'm trying to get in to a MSME program. If that falls through my backup plan would be a BSME degree which would be my second BS degree, but either way it's going to take three more years to finish taking classes at night, and I feel I'm ready to design my own systems now. I passed the FE exam in a state where they don't make you wait to graduate to give it to you, so I am a registered EIT
> So I'm trying to get a sense for whether what I'm asking for is reasonable. I plan on getting my resume out there to see for myself, but not until after I get in to a Master's program so I don't have to interview looking like an undergrad. In the meantime I'm looking for some input on what other people have experienced and witnessed. In every state, with enough experience you can get your PE without any college degree, but you need to show you have experience doing actual designing, so there must be some point where your experience starts to count for something. My question is when? If I start sending out resumes saying I'm looking for a job as an Engineer based on my 5 years of experience, should I expect to get a lot of responses?


I worked with a math major in Colorado who got his PE with 8 years if qualified engineering experience. You can do it..


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> SuperAlpha said:
> 
> 
> > If you were calculating and figuring then you were engineering and not just CAD. It counts for experience. Some states allow math and science degrees so long as there was enough math involved for PE. Contact your state and go get your PE!
> ...


What state are you in?


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

cdcengineer said:


> I worked with a math major in Colorado who got his PE with 8 years if qualified engineering experience. You can do it..


Did you work with him before he got his PE? What type of work was he doing? And just prior to taking the test what was his position in the company compared those with less experience and an engineering degree? Was he assigned to projects as the engineer (as in the person who is designing the systems for that project) or was he assisting a senior engineers with their designs? It is very delineated where I work; every project is assigned a mechanical engineer (who may or may not be a PE), an electrical engineer (only one electrical project engineer in our office is a PE), and a CAD person. Which category would he have fallen into, with 5 years experience, 3 years before taking the PE?


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

SuperAlpha said:


> What state are you in?


Pennsylvania


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

csb said:


> I'm not so sure I actually agree. I think you'll definitely be able to get a better job WITH the MSME, but not while pursuing it.
> Are you unhappy with your current employment and really wanting out? Can you manage to start a new job and pursue a Masters degree?


I wouldn't say I'm unhappy, so I'd need a better position to quit. I would definitely not make a lateral move. But I would say I'm underutilized and have met the resistance of "we'll move you up once you get your degree, not before" in spite of the other credentials (EIT and LEED AP) I've acquired while working here, and in spite of the fact that my Math degree is far more related to Engineering than the education required to do CAD. If it really is that cut and dry, I can afford to take a year off to go to school full time, but logically that just doesn't seem like a good idea. Directly applicable work experience is the most valuable thing in actually making me a good engineer, whether or not it's worth anything in getting my PE (in my state only work done after graduation counts, unless it is 12 years or more).


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## tim1981 (Jun 23, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> cdcengineer said:
> 
> 
> > I worked with a math major in Colorado who got his PE with 8 years if qualified engineering experience. You can do it..
> ...


Have you kept in touch with him? If he's willing, you could PM me his email, I'd like to talk to him.


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## willsee (Jun 23, 2011)

gotta have that paper


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2011)

Have you considered Craigslist? I hear they have pretty good leads there and you can market yourself ... for free.

JR


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## cdcengineer (Jun 24, 2011)

tim1981 said:


> tim1981 said:
> 
> 
> > cdcengineer said:
> ...


This was an MEP firm. He started off as a CAD tech.. He progressed into a designer and became a project manager at the company before taking the exam. I didn't work with him 3 years before the exam, two years prior, he was classified as an Engineer II or maybe even project engineer - I didn't follow his career that closely.

I have not kept in touch with him since I left the company a couple of years ago.


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 24, 2011)

My dad started as a draftsman and went to night school 2hrs away and got his engineering degrees. That took 17 years to graduate!!!!!! Then he got his P.E. License! He stayed at the same company the entire time and retired from there at 55yrs old.


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## Road Guy (Jun 24, 2011)

In my opinion your degree stops to matter when some of these happen:

1. Get your PE

2. Can win work based on your name

3. 5-7 years experience

If you can get a PE with a Math degree in your state (&amp; a lot I think you can) I think the work experience will start to pay off, its just such a shitty time to be looking for work...


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## NCcarguy (Jun 28, 2011)

The "Work" experience means squat to an employer. I'm not meaning that there's no value to it, but there's no market for someone trying to be an engineer that has "experience". You may be able to find a great paying job (I always was), but the bottom line is to get to where you want to be, you're going to have to pass the PE exam in the state you wish to work in.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 28, 2011)

jregieng said:


> Have you considered Craigslist? I hear they have pretty good leads there and you can market yourself ... for free.
> JR


I got my A/E job by submitting a resume to a Craigslist ad.


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