# underwear bomber



## Road Guy (Dec 28, 2009)

I know its not a funny matter, crazy people trying to kill us and all....

so after the shoe-bomber we all had to start taking off our shoes to get through airline security, I guess you will all just have to start _going commando _when you fly from now on..

I wonder if it would just be cheaper to go back to the previous security measures, get rid of all these TSA people and just pay for two sky-marshalls on every flight? and arming the pilots also may not really be a bad idea...


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## MA_PE (Dec 28, 2009)

they have x-ray machines that allow the user to see through peoples clothing.

I know...I know these amazing glasses were available for years at joke shops and throuch cominc book ads.

There is a contingetnt of people that say it violates their privacy for the TSA to use them. I suspect that these same folks have precisely the physiques that one would NOT want to see without clothes.


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## z06dustin (Dec 28, 2009)

How about intelligent screening policies like Israel? Ask good questions to people who are likely to cause problems, and actually keep people off planes who have gone to Yemen and studied at schools which are known to teach violence?

Better xrays, better searching, no hands in your laps policies, all this fuzzy b/s, heck even guns in a marshall or pilot's hands, aren't really worth much if you still let people known to be terrorist on planes. Plus, these policies just disrupt commerce for the law abiding.


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## Santiagj (Dec 28, 2009)

No hands in your lap? Does that mean pocket pool is banned too?


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## MGX (Dec 28, 2009)

z06dustin said:


> How about intelligent screening policies like Israel? Ask good questions to people who are likely to cause problems, and actually keep people off planes who have gone to Yemen and studied at schools which are known to teach violence?
> Better xrays, better searching, no hands in your laps policies, all this fuzzy b/s, heck even guns in a marshall or pilot's hands, aren't really worth much if you still let people known to be terrorist on planes. Plus, these policies just disrupt commerce for the law abiding.


Has anyone been in your luggage without your knowledge?


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## udpolo15 (Dec 28, 2009)

z06dustin said:


> How about intelligent screening policies like Israel? Ask good questions to people who are likely to cause problems, and actually keep people off planes who have gone to Yemen and studied at schools which are known to teach violence?
> Better xrays, better searching, no hands in your laps policies, all this fuzzy b/s, heck even guns in a marshall or pilot's hands, aren't really worth much if you still let people known to be terrorist on planes. Plus, these policies just disrupt commerce for the law abiding.


One problem is scale. A lot more airports, flights than in Israel.

I agree a lot of the rules they came up with after it happened are stupid. So I can't have anything on my lap an hour before the plan lands, but if I want to blow it up 2 hrs before it lands that's ok. I think it is a lot more about trying to reassure the flying public, but it was a miss and people saw through the half assed attempt.

It is easy to say they should have better screening of passengers (seemed to have drop the ball on the most recent attempt), but at some point that will fail. The only sure fire way is a 100% passenger search/explosive swab, either by hand or with the xray's machines they are testing. Either way, that will eventually fail. The good news is that these attempts only happen 1 in 11 billion flown miles (or something like that), so the risk is relatively small (easy to say not being or having a loved one on that 1).


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## z06dustin (Dec 28, 2009)

udpolo15 said:


> It is easy to say they should have better screening of passengers (seemed to have drop the ball on the most recent attempt), but at some point that will fail. The only sure fire way is a 100% passenger search/explosive swab, either by hand or with the xray's machines they are testing. Either way, that will eventually fail. The good news is that these attempts only happen 1 in 11 billion flown miles (or something like that), so the risk is relatively small (easy to say not being or having a loved one on that 1).


Here's the flaw in your (and most of America's) logic. THere is no 100% sure-fire way. All that there is, however, are reactive changes. "Oh! They tried to use liquid explosives, quick, ban liquids!" "Oh! He tried to use a shoe bomb, quick, search shoes!"

Explosive swabs aren't 100% by any means. I have a range bag, which has over the years been soaked by residual smokeless powder from shooting so often, which I travel with sometimes. Every once in a while I'm stopped and it's searched, but most of the time it goes right through.

And you're right. The risk is quite small. So why impair everyone's ability to travel with ubiquitous and random rules?


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## roadwreck (Dec 28, 2009)

Whoa, this is not the topic I was expecting when I read the title.

:mf_followthroughfart:


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 28, 2009)

I was listening to the radio today and the host was reading from an interview script from an IRA terrorist after he attempted to kill the Queen of England. Paraphrasing he said, "The Queen has to be lucky every day, we only have to be lucky one day."

That's exactly how it is with the muslim terrorists, they only have to get through once.

The solution to all of this is very simple, stop the empire building, bring all of our troops home, end foreign occupations, and end all foreign aid. That will take away any reason/cause these people have to be angry with us, it will also take away their primary recruiting tool.

If there are a few leftover muslim whack jobs, we could use use racial profiling in airport security screening.


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## Supe (Dec 28, 2009)

Airport measures are definitely lacking.

I have on a handful of occasions, dropped substantial bombs on an airplane. I succeeded in taking out the entire rear half of the plane, and in some cases on 737's and smaller, parts of first class.

IMO, the first step to reducing potential airline bombings, is to close all airport Chili's restaurants.


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## udpolo15 (Dec 28, 2009)

z06dustin said:


> udpolo15 said:
> 
> 
> > It is easy to say they should have better screening of passengers (seemed to have drop the ball on the most recent attempt), but at some point that will fail. The only sure fire way is a 100% passenger search/explosive swab, either by hand or with the xray's machines they are testing. Either way, that will eventually fail. The good news is that these attempts only happen 1 in 11 billion flown miles (or something like that), so the risk is relatively small (easy to say not being or having a loved one on that 1).
> ...


I agree. Didn't mean to use the term "sure fire" If someone is determined, they will figure out a way.


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## FLBuff PE (Dec 28, 2009)

Solution: Require that ALL passengers fly nude. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would solve a lot of problems.


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## Supe (Dec 28, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Solution: Require that ALL passengers fly nude. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would solve a lot of problems.


Dibs on the aisle seat.


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 28, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Solution: Require that ALL passengers fly nude. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would solve a lot of problems.



or don't allow babies on planes.


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## Supe (Dec 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> FLBuff PE said:
> 
> 
> > Solution: Require that ALL passengers fly nude. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would solve a lot of problems.
> ...


Especially not nude babies.


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## roadwreck (Dec 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> FLBuff PE said:
> 
> 
> > Solution: Require that ALL passengers fly nude. It wouldn't be pretty, but it would solve a lot of problems.
> ...


babies should be allowed on planes, just not in the passenger compartment.


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## Dleg (Dec 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> The solution to all of this is very simple, stop the empire building, bring all of our troops home, end foreign occupations, and end all foreign aid. That will take away any reason/cause these people have to be angry with us, it will also take away their primary recruiting tool.


Yeah, but where would the fun be in that?


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 28, 2009)

Dleg said:


> Chucktown PE said:
> 
> 
> > The solution to all of this is very simple, stop the empire building, bring all of our troops home, end foreign occupations, and end all foreign aid. That will take away any reason/cause these people have to be angry with us, it will also take away their primary recruiting tool.
> ...



I know, our politicians wouldn't have anything to rile the dumb masses up with. Plus we'd have that extra trillion dollars lying around, what the hell would we do with that, pay down debt?


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## ElCid03 (Dec 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> I was listening to the radio today and the host was reading from an interview script from an IRA terrorist after he attempted to kill the Queen of England. Paraphrasing he said, "The Queen has to be lucky every day, we only have to be lucky one day."
> That's exactly how it is with the muslim terrorists, they only have to get through once.
> 
> The solution to all of this is very simple, stop the empire building, bring all of our troops home, end foreign occupations, and end all foreign aid. That will take away any reason/cause these people have to be angry with us, it will also take away their primary recruiting tool.
> ...


We tried isolationism twice: the first time was during World War I when we tried to wait it out and then found out that Germany was only a few months from bleeding out the French and British Armies. In 183 days of combat we lost 116,000 dead in order to literally save the free world in 1918.

So then we tried "minding our own business" again. Only this time they destroyed most of the Pacific Fleet, France was lost, Britain was almost starved into submission, and in almost four years of fighting we lost over 250,000 dead in order to once again save the free world.

Foreign policy is neither fun, easy, nor cheap, but with great power comes great responsibility. We are not perfect by any means, but we have done a lot of good in this world since the Second World War (The Marshall Plan).


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## Flyer_PE (Dec 28, 2009)

^To add to that: So long as we are buying their oil which provides money to keep the Saudi regimes in power, those same regimes are going to turn a blind eye to the extremists teaching their kids from birth about how demonic we are. The regimes know they are better off with the nutcases blaming somebody else (us) for their circumstances rather than their own government/ruling class.


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## Dleg (Dec 28, 2009)

I say we go all nuclear, drive electric cars, and then pay the rich Saudies to accept our nuclear waste.


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## Flyer_PE (Dec 28, 2009)

^There's a plan.


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 29, 2009)

ElCid03 said:


> We tried isolationism twice: the first time was during World War I when we tried to wait it out and then found out that Germany was only a few months from bleeding out the French and British Armies. In 183 days of combat we lost 116,000 dead in order to literally save the free world in 1918.
> So then we tried "minding our own business" again. Only this time they destroyed most of the Pacific Fleet, France was lost, Britain was almost starved into submission, and in almost four years of fighting we lost over 250,000 dead in order to once again save the free world.
> 
> Foreign policy is neither fun, easy, nor cheap, but with great power comes great responsibility. We are not perfect by any means, but we have done a lot of good in this world since the Second World War (The Marshall Plan).



I respectfully disagree that we were isolationist. WWI, I'll agree that the sinking of the Lusitania was an act of war, but our economic meddling throughout the world has provoked armed conflict.

With regards to WWII, please read this:

http://www.thefreemanonline.org/columns/ou...n-pearl-harbor/

I believe, after quite a bit of reading, that we effectively goaded Japan in to war.

There will always be evil people, there always have been. I believe that a far more effective way to minimize the the world's despots is through liberty and economic freedom, not armed conflict.

After Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan, I would hope that we could learn that lesson.


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## benbo (Dec 29, 2009)

It's always our fault, including when people attack us. Our economic meddling is responsible for Hitler too.

Yeah, leaving them alone will keep Islamists off your back. Just don't print a cartoon with Muhammed like in Denmark, that notable imperialist country. Or not give them sufficient benefits, like in Paris. THey'll riot. Or try to get your own human rights if you happen to live under an Islamist regime like Iran.

They might turn their eyes elsewhere for a while, but don't kid yourself. The Islamist's have desire for hegemony. Just ask anyone in southern Phillippines, Indonesia or certain places in Africa. A few other bastions of Empire building.


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

Regardless of who started it or why, I posit that the "terrorists" have essentially won the war. They attacked us, and since that attack our economy has begun a rapid decline due to new government programs and massive spending on a two front war. They also instilled enough fear into the American populace to encourage us to start hemorrhaging freedoms. So whether or not we "win" in Iraq or Afghanistan, we have already lost the War on Terrorism.


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## bigray76 (Dec 29, 2009)

roadwreck said:


> Whoa, this is not the topic I was expecting when I read the title.
> :mf_followthroughfart:


I was thinking it was another Fudgey story...


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## benbo (Dec 29, 2009)

I’ve read all that stuff in the link CTown posted many times before. Assuming it’s all true, it’s still not an excuse for a military attack. And what about the holocaust? Was that a justifiable reaction to Jews? Were England and the US supposed to stay out of that one too? Fight economic battles with economic tools, if you choose otherwise I support my government’s right to attack.

As far as Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, whether or not those are or were appropriate or effective strategies is open to debate. I think with regards to Vietnam, it may be settled, at least the way we entered and fought did not seem to work.

Wilheldp may well be right, but I believe that there are a lot of factors leading to our economic problems, and I think these wars are a minor component. I also believe we will recover, but only time will tell..

But I do not believe the sole motivation behind Islamist violence is a reaction to American economic policies. Yes, that’s part of it, but even they say otherwise.

What's also true is this is a pointless debate we've had on here many times.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Dec 29, 2009)

> They also instilled enough fear into the American populace to encourage us to start hemorrhaging freedoms.


I agree with you on that one 100%.


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## benbo (Dec 29, 2009)

"start hemorrhaging freedoms."

Can somebody give me an actual example of how this has affected you? How has 9-11 cost you freedom any significant way (other than a little security check at the airport that to me is absolutely nothing)? As far as I can see, everybody is critiquing the government fairly easily on this website.

I keep seeing this written, but I know of absolutely nobody who has really been affected.


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 29, 2009)

benbo said:


> It's always our fault, including when people attack us. Our economic meddling is responsible for Hitler too.
> Yeah, leaving them alone will keep Islamists off your back. Just don't print a cartoon with Muhammed like in Denmark, that notable imperialist country. Or not give them sufficient benefits, like in Paris. THey'll riot. Or try to get your own human rights if you happen to live under an Islamist regime like Iran.
> 
> They might turn their eyes elsewhere for a while, but don't kid yourself. The Islamist's have desire for hegemony. Just ask anyone in southern Phillippines, Indonesia or certain places in Africa. A few other bastions of Empire building.


I'm not saying it's always our fault, but our imperialistic policies and attitude that the rest of the world should fall in line and be more like us has far reaching consequences. I don't think our economic meddling was responsible for Hitler, I think weak appeasement policies in Eurpoe and the likes of Neville Chamberlain were responsible for Hitler. I also think a poor economy (largely the fault of central banks around the world, ours included) and a apathetic citizenry allowed him to do the awful things he did.



wilheldp_PE said:


> Regardless of who started it or why, I posit that the "terrorists" have essentially won the war. They attacked us, and since that attack our economy has begun a rapid decline due to new government programs and massive spending on a two front war. They also instilled enough fear into the American populace to encourage us to start hemorrhaging freedoms. So whether or not we "win" in Iraq or Afghanistan, we have already lost the War on Terrorism.


Like I said, we have to be lucky every day, the have to be lucky one day.



benbo said:


> I've read all that stuff in the link CTown posted many times before. Assuming it's all true, it's still not an excuse for a military attack. And what about the holocaust? Was that a justifiable reaction to Jews? Were England and the US supposed to stay out of that one too? Fight economic battles with economic tools, if you choose otherwise I support my government's right to attack.
> As far as Vietnam, Iraq, or Afghanistan, whether or not those are or were appropriate or effective strategies is open to debate. I think with regards to Vietnam, it may be settled, at least the way we entered and fought did not seem to work.
> 
> Wilheldp may well be right, but I believe that there are a lot of factors leading to our economic problems, and I think these wars are a minor component. I also believe we will recover, but only time will tell..
> ...


As much as I have read about German history I still have a tough time understanding how the German citizenry allowed something like the holocaust to happen. The best I can come up with was it was the gradual unwinding of civil liberties and fear mongering that allowed Hitler to succeed. And no, I don't think the US and England were supposed to stay out of that one, but if the rest of Europe had a backbone, I posit that WWII never would have happened, i.e. they hadn't allowed remilitarization and annexation of the Sudetenland.

I don't think the sole motivation behind Islamist violence is a reaction to American economic policies, I think it's a reaction to imperialistic foreign policies, largely American.


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

benbo said:


> "start hemorrhaging freedoms."
> Can somebody give me an actual example of how this has affected you? How has 9-11 cost you freedom any significant way (other than a little security check at the airport that to me is absolutely nothing)? As far as I can see, everybody is critiquing the government fairly easily on this website.
> 
> I keep seeing this written, but I know of absolutely nobody who has really been affected.


That's the beautiful part about most of the Patriot Act. You don't even know if it has affected you or not. They can wiretap any phone they want, with or without a warrant. But even if they got a FISA warrant, they are kept secret, so you would never know.

Then, there is section 215 that the American Library Association lobbied against...



> Section 215 allows the federal government to obtain a court order to compel any business, organization, group, or library to release all its records regarding any client of interest to law enforcement officials — and it places a gag order on the recipient to prevent them from speaking about it.


So the government can compel any private business to divulge their records to law enforcement, and can't even tell their customers about it.

God forbid they actually think they have found something against you because they could then just label you an enemy combatant and lock you away in Gitmo without a trial indefinitely...or worse, render you to some 3rd world country and torture you. If you think it can't happen to you, just ask Maher Arar.


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 29, 2009)

benbo said:


> "start hemorrhaging freedoms."
> Can somebody give me an actual example of how this has affected you? How has 9-11 cost you freedom any significant way (other than a little security check at the airport that to me is absolutely nothing)? As far as I can see, everybody is critiquing the government fairly easily on this website.
> 
> I keep seeing this written, but I know of absolutely nobody who has really been affected.



So search and seizure without a warrant is not unconstitutional? Wiretapping US citizens not unconstitutional? Read my post above, the gradual erosion of our freedoms will turn us all into sheep.


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## Denis (Dec 29, 2009)

Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--


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## benbo (Dec 29, 2009)

> I think weak appeasement policies in Eurpoe and the likes of Neville Chamberlain were responsible for Hitler.


Good grief. How about Hitler, the people around him, and the German citizenry were responsible for Hitler.


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## Dark Knight (Dec 29, 2009)

We have to be more like Captain James Kirk. He traveled all over the galaxy and never checked a bag. :deadhorse:


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## roadwreck (Dec 29, 2009)

but did he bag a Czech?

:eyebrows:


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## MGX (Dec 29, 2009)

Denis said:


> Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--



I thought we were an autonomous collective.

On topic, I did prefer when Clinton was in office and we'd export our torture of unsavory characters to Egypt. That was legal, what was so wrong about that? Now we have to drop $150 mil to keep the slime in our own country.


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## Denis (Dec 29, 2009)

MGX said:


> Denis said:
> 
> 
> > Oh, King, eh, very nice. And how d'you get that, eh? By exploiting the workers! By 'anging on to outdated imperialist dogma which perpetuates the economic and social differences in our society. If there's ever going to be any progress with the--
> ...


You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship: a self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--


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## TranspoVA (Dec 29, 2009)

But you have to admit...its kind of hard to beat a guy who's willing to blow his nuts off...should be noted he was an engineering student also...should have gone accounting...


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## Chucktown PE (Dec 29, 2009)

^^ That is dedication


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## FLBuff PE (Dec 29, 2009)

Denis said:


> MGX said:
> 
> 
> > Denis said:
> ...


SHUT UP! SHUT UP!


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## Flyer_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

I fart in your general direction!


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## Denis (Dec 29, 2009)

I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week...


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## Denis (Dec 29, 2009)

...but all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special bi-weekly meeting...


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## Denis (Dec 29, 2009)

...by a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs...


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## Denis (Dec 29, 2009)

...but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more major...


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## DVINNY (Dec 29, 2009)

Road Guy said:


> I know its not a funny matter, crazy people trying to kill us and all....


They still haven't figured out why he had his panties all up in a wad.......

I know. I know.


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## Flyer_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

My favorite name for the guy so far:

"The Knicker Bomber"


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## csb (Dec 29, 2009)

Ugh...I hate it when larger than average size people are pouring over into my airplane seat and onto me...just imagine if everyone was nude.


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## Flyer_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

I haven't been on a commercial flight in almost two years. I'm in no rush to end the streak.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Dec 29, 2009)

csb said:


> Ugh...I hate it when larger than average size people are pouring over into my airplane seat and onto me...*just imagine if everyone was nude.*


It sure would increase membership in the mile high club.


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## Flyer_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

^If nothing else, it would make the news reports for in-flight disturbances more interesting.


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## FLBuff PE (Dec 29, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > Ugh...I hate it when larger than average size people are pouring over into my airplane seat and onto me...*just imagine if everyone was nude.*
> ...


One word: turbulence. :dancingnaughty:


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Dec 29, 2009)

^Easily solved with a bottle of lube. Ensures a nice smooth entry into the hangar.


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## MA_PE (Dec 29, 2009)

who wants to join me in a start-up company making "seat covers". Think about it, nude passengers using the same seat. We'd install those dispensers with the paper seat covers, like in the doctor's office or in the public stalls, in every seat on every commercial plane.

What an awesome business opportunity.


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## FLBuff PE (Dec 29, 2009)

Either that, or we can sell body suits to people after they get through security...


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## Dexman1349 (Dec 29, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Either that, or we can sell body suits to people after they get through security...


Clear body suits. Similar to the clear backpacks some schools require of their students...


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## z06dustin (Dec 29, 2009)

*SMILE!!!*


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