# Application Question for CA Appilication regarding references



## nightwing (Feb 21, 2015)

First time on the forum, it was recommended.

For the Civil PE Exam I know one reference of the four references needs to be one of your licensed supervisor for each engagement. If I have one engagement and need two years qualifying experience of work based on the flowchart and my current licensed supervisor has reviewed my work and supervised for the last 19 months, would he count as the supervising reference and this be sufficient for the supervisor part? Then my other three references could be my colleagues and peers who are licensed have reviewed my work for the last three years. Would this qualify me?


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## Porter_ (Feb 23, 2015)

i believe reference criteria varies from state to state. best thing to do would be to call your state board.


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## rejectedbytexas (Feb 23, 2015)

It is 5 months not covered by who is overseeing your work. Get it to your previous PE supervisor...not worth to risk it if you don't have to


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## Klox23 (Feb 23, 2015)

nightwing said:


> First time on the forum, it was recommended.
> 
> For the Civil PE Exam I know one reference of the four references needs to be one of your licensed supervisor for each engagement. If I have one engagement and need two years qualifying experience of work based on the flowchart and my current licensed supervisor has reviewed my work and supervised for the last 19 months, would he count as the supervising reference and this be sufficient for the supervisor part? Then my other three references could be my colleagues and peers who are licensed have reviewed my work for the last three years. Would this qualify me?


[SIZE=10.5pt]Question. I am also applying for the CA P.E. I am applying In Mechanical tough. I also only have one engagement that has been supervised the whole time by the same P.E. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Are you planning on listing all your engagement tasks and basically having the same letter four times? (Just signed by four different people)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Or are you breaking down your tasks into four parts? And therefore having four different letters, signed by four different people. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]Hope you understood that  [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I'm just confused as to how I should list all my tasks, since I only have 1 engagement. Thanks!![/SIZE]


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## HI_ee (Feb 24, 2015)

To piggy back on this topic, has anyone used the exempt employee exception? The exception is that if you work in an industry that manufacture products for the department of defense, your supervisor that signs off on your experience doesnt have to be licensed. Can anyone shed some light on this?


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## ptatohed (Feb 26, 2015)

nightwing said:


> First time on the forum, it was recommended.
> 
> For the Civil PE Exam I know one reference of the four references needs to be one of your licensed supervisor for each engagement. If I have one engagement and need two years qualifying experience of work based on the flowchart and my current licensed supervisor has reviewed my work and supervised for the last 19 months, would he count as the supervising reference and this be sufficient for the supervisor part? Then my other three references could be my colleagues and peers who are licensed have reviewed my work for the last three years. Would this qualify me?


Here's what happened to me. I used as one of my references a "co-worker of equal level" (or however the board terms it) and they gave me credit as him being one of my 4 needed references but none of the time under this reference counted toward my required time. Only time under a supervisor counts as experience time. Does that make sense? But check with your evaluator to be sure.


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## nightwing (Feb 26, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> nightwing said:
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> 
> > First time on the forum, it was recommended.
> ...


Thanks. When did you apply? Do all the evaluators have the same criterial?


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## rejectedbytexas (Feb 27, 2015)

nightwing said:


> Thanks. When did you apply? _Do all the evaluators have the same criterial?_


Although he is a great helper here, how is Mr. Ptatohed supposed to know this?


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## rejectedbytexas (Feb 27, 2015)

rejectedbytexas said:


> nightwing said:
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> 
> > Thanks. When did you apply? _Do all the evaluators have the same criterial?_
> ...


Technically, Evaluators #1 to #3 are not supposed to have different criteria based on different last names of applicants...I mean, but who knows


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## ptatohed (Feb 27, 2015)

nightwing said:


> ptatohed said:
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My app was around 2009/2010. I'd recommend you contact your evaluator.


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## nightwing (Mar 7, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> nightwing said:
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Both my friend and I both contacted our evaluaters. One evaluater stated only time under the supervisor counts as the experience and the other evaluator says a supervisor needs to be part of the engagement. If anyone else has heard anything please let us know. How can two evaluators have different criterias.


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## CAPLS (Mar 9, 2015)

*ALL *claimed work experience needs to have been performed under the direction of an individual licensed in the practice that you are applying for. If *ALL *your claimed experience can be claimed under 1 or 2 of your engagement forms, then the other 2 or 3 engagement/reference forms can be completed by other licensees that are familiar with your experience but do not necessarily have to have been in responsible charge of the claimed experience.

For example, if you worked for one firm your entire experience and there are multiple licensees at the firm, you could have the licensee in responsible charge complete engagement 1, copy this engagement as engagement 2, 3, and 4, each with different licensed coworkers signing. Or you can split the time. Either way, make sure you communicate it very clearly in the engagements.

Hope this helps clear it up for you


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## ptatohed (Mar 9, 2015)

CAPLS said:


> *ALL *claimed work experience needs to have been performed under the direction of an individual licensed in the practice that you are applying for. If *ALL *your claimed experience can be claimed under 1 or 2 of your engagement forms, then the other 2 or 3 engagement/reference forms can be completed by other licensees that are familiar with your experience but do not necessarily have to have been in responsible charge of the claimed experience.
> 
> For example, if you worked for one firm your entire experience and there are multiple licensees at the firm, you could have the licensee in responsible charge complete engagement 1, copy this engagement as engagement 2, 3, and 4, each with different licensed coworkers signing. Or you can split the time. Either way, make sure you communicate it very clearly in the engagements.
> 
> Hope this helps clear it up for you






Ric, I was with you on paragraph 1 and then you lost me with paragraph 2. That is not how I remembered it at all. I remember the instructions being very specific on what one engagement is. So, I looked it up. This is what the application says:

_List your engagements below in reverse chronological order beginning at graduation. Leave no gaps in the list. If you were not employed in the engineering field, you must still list the dates and explain in the Remarks section. Your present engagement is No. 1. An engagement is one association, with one employer, in one capacity, at one level of responsibility. A change in engagement is a new employer, a promotion, or a significant change in duties, authority, responsibility, etc. Different projects in the same capacity for one employer are not considered separate engagements. Explain any overlaps in employment dates._

The way I read it, a copy and paste of engagement #1 won't do for #s 2 - 4. Each engagement must be uniquely different. Am I reading it incorrectly?

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/pubs/forms/ceapp.pdf

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/civilpe_errf_instructions_2010.pdf

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/faq_eng.pdf


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## nightwing (Mar 10, 2015)

CAPLS said:


> *ALL *claimed work experience needs to have been performed under the direction of an individual licensed in the practice that you are applying for. If *ALL *your claimed experience can be claimed under 1 or 2 of your engagement forms, then the other 2 or 3 engagement/reference forms can be completed by other licensees that are familiar with your experience but do not necessarily have to have been in responsible charge of the claimed experience.
> 
> For example, if you worked for one firm your entire experience and there are multiple licensees at the firm, you could have the licensee in responsible charge complete engagement 1, copy this engagement as engagement 2, 3, and 4, each with different licensed coworkers signing. Or you can split the time. Either way, make sure you communicate it very clearly in the engagements.
> 
> Hope this helps clear it up for you


Each of the evaluators have a different interpretation of this. Just call each of them and they say different things. I want to confirm that if a supervisor can claim part of an engagement, and other co-workers can claim the other parts can the entire engagement be used as experience for the exam? My friends have talked to different evaluators and each says a different answer to the engagement and supervisor issue.


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## nightwing (Mar 10, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> CAPLS said:
> 
> 
> > *ALL *claimed work experience needs to have been performed under the direction of an individual licensed in the practice that you are applying for. If *ALL *your claimed experience can be claimed under 1 or 2 of your engagement forms, then the other 2 or 3 engagement/reference forms can be completed by other licensees that are familiar with your experience but do not necessarily have to have been in responsible charge of the claimed experience.
> ...


I could not find anything that clearly states a supervisor has to review and verify the entire engagement for it to count.


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## ptatohed (Mar 10, 2015)

nightwing said:


> ptatohed said:
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It has been said in this thread by me and by CAPLS that it does not. And it is clearly in the second link I provided above.

_References can come from any of the listed below, but are generally considered in the following descending order of significance:_

1) Immediate supervisor;

2) Indirect supervisor;

3) Co-worker at equal or higher level; and,

4) Other qualified person.


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## nightwing (Mar 15, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> nightwing said:
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So can you please help clariy this

"[SIZE=11pt]All civil engineering work experience must be gained while working under the direction of a licensed Civil Engineer."[/SIZE]

"[SIZE=11pt]For civil engineering work experience which was gained in California or any other place where such work is required to be under the jurisdiction of a licensed civil engineer, at least one of the applicants licensed references must be from someone who is or was in a supervisory capacity over the applicant, for each engagement for which the applicant desires credit. An engagement not verified by a licensed civil engineer supervisor will be considered as either non-civil engineering experience, or illegal civil engineering experience, and in either case it will not be acceptable."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]So based on my understanding:[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]An application needs to have a supervisor or someone in supervisor capacity verifying each engagment. That supervisor does not need to verify the whole enaggement just part of it. Do you think that is correct?[/SIZE]


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## CAPLS (Mar 16, 2015)

I believe it is simpler than you are trying to make it. All work experience, whether that experience is claimed on one engagement or across multiple engagement forms, require supervision by a licensed engineer in the discipline that the applicant is applying for.

You could have one engagement that covers the entire 72 required months and the others are licensed coworkers in the same firm that are familiar with your experience during the same time.

You could have two engagements that split the required 72 months and the other two are licensed references that are familiar with your experience.


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## The Wizard (Mar 16, 2015)

Ric,

It would be great if you could address post #13 directly. Myself, and I'm sure others would like to know.


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## ptatohed (Mar 16, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> nightwing said:
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> > First time on the forum, it was recommended.
> ...





nightwing said:


> ptatohed said:
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I thought I was pretty clear in my post #6. You need 72 months of experience under a PE. But 48 of that can be substituted with a 4yr degree, leaving 24 months needed under a PE. And you need 4 references. Only time under a PE counts toward your 24 months. But other PEs who your didn't necessarily work under can count toward your references. I hope this is clear.


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## nightwing (Mar 17, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> ptatohed said:
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Thanks. I just I am a little confused if for example I need two years of work experience and my supervisor can count for 18 months of time period, one co-worker count 24 months, and two other co-workers are each 10 months would this epxeirence qualify a person? If the supervisor reviewed the work for 18 months, but a co-worker reviewed the work for two years over the same enagement will two years be used for the experience?


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## ptatohed (Mar 17, 2015)

nightwing said:


> Thanks. I just I am a little confused if for example I need two years of work experience and my supervisor can count for 18 months of time period, one co-worker count 24 months, and two other co-workers are each 10 months would this epxeirence qualify a person? If the supervisor reviewed the work for 18 months, but a co-worker reviewed the work for two years over the same enagement will two years be used for the experience?


I give up. Good luck to you.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 17, 2015)

"Thanks. I just I am a little confused if for example I need two years of work experience and my supervisor can count for 18 months of time period, one co-worker count 24 months, and two other co-workers are each 10 months would this experience qualify a person? If the supervisor reviewed the work for 18 months, but a co-worker reviewed the work for two years over the same engagement will two years be used for the experience?"

I'll take a stab at this. If your co-worker who reviewed the work for 24 months is a P.E. then that time counts towards the 24 months experience required. If that co-worker is not a P.E. *BUT* your supervisor who reviewed the work for 18 months is a P.E. then you can count 18 months towards the experience which means you still need 6 months.

If your supervisor and three other co-workers (who are all P.E.s) have reviewed your work then all four count as references.

I don't think ptatohed could have made this any simpler so good luck to you.


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## nightwing (Mar 17, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> nightwing said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks. I just I am a little confused if for example I need two years of work experience and my supervisor can count for 18 months of time period, one co-worker count 24 months, and two other co-workers are each 10 months would this epxeirence qualify a person? If the supervisor reviewed the work for 18 months, but a co-worker reviewed the work for two years over the same enagement will two years be used for the experience?
> ...


Thanks for your help. Sorry if I had trouble understanding your response. I apperciate your help.


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## nightwing (Mar 17, 2015)

Ramnares P.E. said:


> "Thanks. I just I am a little confused if for example I need two years of work experience and my supervisor can count for 18 months of time period, one co-worker count 24 months, and two other co-workers are each 10 months would this experience qualify a person? If the supervisor reviewed the work for 18 months, but a co-worker reviewed the work for two years over the same engagement will two years be used for the experience?"
> 
> I'll take a stab at this. If your co-worker who reviewed the work for 24 months is a P.E. then that time counts towards the 24 months experience required. If that co-worker is not a P.E. *BUT* your supervisor who reviewed the work for 18 months is a P.E. then you can count 18 months towards the experience which means you still need 6 months.
> 
> ...




Thank you for your help.


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## MrHugo (Feb 29, 2016)

Sorry for digging this thread back up, but this thread have cleared some of my questions for the engagements.

However, the licensed PE that can verify my experience is not an immediate supervisor.  The licensed PE works for the owner of the project and hires my company for consulting and building purposes.  I work closely with him and he is in responsible charge of my decisions and work.  Can he qualify to be my supervisor? or just "in responsible charge" &amp; "Reviewed work"?   Will the application reviewer reject my experience submitted from indirect supervising, in responsible charge of my work, and have reviewed my work.  What is the best way to explain this on the form of our relationship?   

PS, I was rejected the first time because the reviewer remarks was "Unclear who is the employer/supervisor"


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## ptatohed (Mar 3, 2016)

MrHugo said:


> Sorry for digging this thread back up, but this thread have cleared some of my questions for the engagements.
> 
> However, the licensed PE that can verify my experience is not an immediate supervisor.  The licensed PE works for the owner of the project and hires my company for consulting and building purposes.  I work closely with him and he is in responsible charge of my decisions and work.  Can he qualify to be my supervisor? or just "in responsible charge" &amp; "Reviewed work"?   Will the application reviewer reject my experience submitted from indirect supervising, in responsible charge of my work, and have reviewed my work.  What is the best way to explain this on the form of our relationship?
> 
> PS, I was rejected the first time because the reviewer remarks was "Unclear who is the employer/supervisor"


It sounds like he might fall under indirect supervisor? 

1) Immediate supervisor;

2) Indirect supervisor;

3) Co-worker at equal or higher level; and,

4) Other qualified person.


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## MrHugo (Mar 9, 2016)

Ok, So I read the Spec. and it says indirect supervisor is not enough to get the experience recognized.

There are 5 choices to choose from in the engagement form:

1) Employer/Suerpvisor

2) Co-Worker/Associate

3) In Responsible Charge

4) Reviewed Work

5) Other

Question:  Has anyone got your engagement experience recognized by only selecting "In responsible Charge" &amp; "reviewed Work"?   Because those are the only chance I can get my experience recognized or else I will have to switch job who has a PE directly as my supervisor.

THANKS!


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## ptatohed (Mar 15, 2016)

MrHugo said:


> Ok, So I read the Spec. and it says indirect supervisor is not enough to get the experience recognized.
> 
> There are 5 choices to choose from in the engagement form:
> 
> ...


You can use #s 3 and 4 but they will only count as fulfilling your minimum number of references.  The time claimed under these individuals will not count toward your required time.  For time to be counted it must be under a direct supervisor.


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