# NCEES 2020 Model Law Changed - No More MS Degree Required



## sChris (Oct 6, 2014)

Check out the NCEES October 2014 Licensure Exchange, page 2. It looks like there was a vote to scrap the 2020 Model Law requirement for a Master's degree in Engineering or the equivalent additional education beyond the BS Engineering degree for new P.E.'s. It also says:

_"As part of the vote, annual meeting delegates decided to instead develop an official NCEES position statement that supports additional engineering education beyond a bachelor’s degree."_

So no more *required* education after the BS degree. NCEES will merely "support" additional education. Thoughts?


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## Kegley (Oct 6, 2014)

The next paragraph of that article says this: “NCEES voted to remove these requirements (master's degree) to avoid confusion and unintended comity licensure barriers while it works on the specifics of the requirement.”

It sounds like this is a temporary decision until they get things figured out. I'm glad that I'll be getting my license before a master's becomes a requirement. More school, more time, more money...when a year in the work force will lend itself to experience that a lot of companies value more highly than additional education.

Also approved at that meeting: "NCEES member boards voted to remove its Model Law prerequisite that four years of progressive engineering experience be earned before a licensure candidate can take the Principles and Practice of Engineering exam"

You still have to have 4 years of experience before you get your license, but at least you can get the exam out of the way.


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## snickerd3 (Oct 6, 2014)

^some states already let you do that. illinois and california I know for sure. but just because they changed the model doesn't mean the states have to adopt it. you might still have to get 4 yrs in before taking the test,


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## Road Guy (Oct 6, 2014)

Good to hear since I always thought this was a bullshit decision anyway


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## ptatohed (Oct 6, 2014)

In CA, you don't need a BS degree to become a PE. Heck, you don't even have to pass the FE, if you meet the experience exemption.

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/flowchart_for_pe.pdf


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## iwire (Oct 7, 2014)

ptatohed said:


> In CA, you don't need a BS degree to become a PE. Heck, you don't even have to pass the FE, if you meet the experience exemption.
> 
> http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/applicants/flowchart_for_pe.pdf


awesome..crazy rules


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## Dark Knight (Oct 7, 2014)

Wait for it. Somewhere or somehow it will be all about money.


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## I M A PE (Oct 8, 2014)

Selfishly, I think it would be great. More barriers to entry means fewer PE's over time means that my skills and my license will be more in demand as supply shrinks.

Unselfishly, I think requiring an MS is crap. I'm glad they scrapped it. I cannot imagine that going back to school for a year and a half after 15 years in the workforce is going to teach me a single practical thing that I could apply to my job. I'm not saying additional education is useless. Not at all. Just that after 4 years of school, you can learn as much with 1.5 years on the job and steady continuing education as you will in school. Not always, but most often. So I can see the "encouragement" of NCEES but not the requirement.


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## CU07 (Oct 8, 2014)

iwire said:


> ptatohed said:
> 
> 
> > In CA, you don't need a BS degree to become a PE. Heck, you don't even have to pass the FE, if you meet the experience exemption.
> ...


It's still true in NYS too, with 12 years of experience.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pels/pelic.htm#credits


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## PowerStroke79_PE (Oct 9, 2014)

Im still in the process of getting my Masters, but so far, the amount of reinforcement to the fundamentals along with the new concepts on Advanced reinforced concrete, structural dynamics, and prestressed concrete have boosted my confidence in my work. I realize i got a BA in general Civil Engineering, which we barely scratched the surface on prestressed, but im grateful for pushing myself to attempt my masters. Been working for almost two years in structural design and i gotta say some of these projects are a lot more work than learning experience. Detailing, drafting, meetings. Its been helpful but not the same like digging into other methods of structural analysis. Im not saying i like the idea of a Masters requirement for PE license, but i personally see the benefit. On the other hand the homeworks suck. I spent a few years doing construction management until they told me a lot of that wouldnt count towards license experience so i got out and a big reason why i started my masters was that. There is a year reduction requirement for every degree after bachelors in engineering, and me being a youngster anymore, i went for it.


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## DanHalen (Oct 14, 2014)

I don't agree with the masters requirement at all. It's not needed to take and pass the PE exam. However, I've noticed that most people that can pass the PE exam seem to be very successful in obtaining their masters degree (if they choose to go back to school). Most people I know that have their masters degree and take the PE exam usually pass. The common denominator here is work ethic and how much are you willing to put in to it. I learned more in my first year working after graduation than I did in four years of college. The technology is always changing and we're constantly having classes to bring us up to speed on new rules/regulations. I would say aside from taking the FE and PE exam I use less than 10% of what I learned in school and I do design work all day everyday.

During my last semester in college I had to take an ethics class and our class would usually have guest speakers every week. In one particular class they had a panel of people from different sectors. One guy in particular had his bachelors degree in engineering (can't remember which discipline) and an MBA. He discussed this very topic and he believed this would go away at some point. His take was that you don't really get much more technical knowledge than what you already have and showed a salary comparison of someone with a bachelors vs masters. In our area a masters degree will get you about $5k/yr more than a bachelors with no experience. At about 8 to 10 years out the pay is the same as a bachelors degree. Unless if you're in consulting and your position absolutely requires a masters or you want to teach at a community college there isn't much benefit in getting it. For me personally, I can't justify the cost to go back for little to no extra compensation. I personally don't like school and suffer from anal glaucoma (I can't see my ass going back to school to get a masters degree). The guy was saying go for the MBA if you are going to get your masters because it will definitely help you advance your career and pay. The NPSE Salary Survey seems to echo his viewpoints.

http://www.pemagazine-digital.com/pemagazine/october_2013?pg=6#pg6

After I first started working for my current employer I asked them how much extra would I get if I went back to school and got my masters and the answer was nothing and same for a Ph.D. My employer needless to say doesn't offer any incentive to go back to school. If the pay increase from a bachelors to a masters was +$20k/yr I'd be enrolled for next semester. An MBA might allow me to move up in to management and that's +$30k/yr extra. I'm considering the MBA program at this time and weighing my options.


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## Road Guy (Oct 14, 2014)

If anything at all is needed for the PE exam in the future I would say it's not more education but more experience..


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## solomonb (Oct 14, 2014)

Technology and science are changing too fast to not want to gain more information/knowledge about how your field is changing. Those that believe that going back to school will produce no additional learning are correct-- if that is your attitude. Conversely, those that believe that they will learn a lot more, will also do that-- it is all about attitude. School is tough enough, costs lots and if you don't want to be there, certainly don't go. I am not sure how you are going to keep up with all of the changes in your respective discipline without additional education. Some of the 3 day quickie courses can scratch the surface, just barely, but you still need to devote time and energy to learn the fundamentals of the new technologies.

Accounting requires 150 hours before sitting for the CPA examination. This requires either a Master's degree or another 30 hours of preparation. Yes, all of the whining that we see here was there as well, however, it did stick. Once something is a given, it becomes easier. Architecture is another program where a Master's is the entry level degree. Many of those who earned BS degrees and practiced for many years were "grandfathered" in-- they had to take some sort of "test" after which, if passing successfully, most having been in practice for many years were, were awarded a Master's degree.

Not sure that NCEES and the state boards thought this out as carefully as required, and now, they see some flaws, requiring that the Master's degree requirement be deleted from the Model Law. The issues of comity and working in other states appears to be an unintended negative consequence, which was remedied with the removal of the requirement for the master's degree.

I suspect that we will have as many ideas and opinions on this subject as we have engineers discussing the idea!!!!!


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## Road Guy (Oct 14, 2014)

IMO this stems from people in our profession that feel we are not compensated in the same range as Doctors and Lawyers. I don't really believe at the core of this topic is anything about actually making a "better engineer." If you are building the next space shuttle you may need some advanced courses I agree &amp; Industry should dictate that. If your a simple road builder then you don't really need such "extra" schooling.. Also I would like to point out that engineering used to be a very broad profession. Today it is far too specialized. For example, say one received a masters degree in Geotechnical Engineering. After a few years they pretty much cannot do anything else within the civil engineering field except geotech work. 40 years ago someone within the CE field could do most of the entire range of the profession. My grandfather received a ME degree from GA Tech in 1942, I would wager good money that he could hold his own with todays average structural engineers.. Today I don't think you can make that statement..

I have an MBA- Finance, there were several people in my finance courses there simply because they had to, to be able to take the CPA exam. Sure International Finance was a challenging class and I learned a lot, but creating these false hierarchy's doesn't make a better CPA, it just makes people "check the box."

I still say that more value is learned working than sitting in the classroom. Add on an extra year of work experience to the PE and the world will be better off in the long run..


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## ptatohed (Oct 14, 2014)

There is no substitute for work experience.


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## Road Guy (Oct 14, 2014)

we have all been there, but how many of you guys/gals with 3-4 years experience felt comfortable walking out on a jobsite and knowing for damn sure you were correct in what you were saying?

Ever stood toe to toe with a bridge contractor that has built more bridges than a senior engineer will ever see, 20 foot deep inside a coffer damn , in the middle of a lake with water leaking in through the cracks hoping that the pumps keep up with the flow coming in and argued about whether the rock was thick enough to change the foundation from a pile to spread footing?

It was a hell of a lot easier when I had 10+ years experience compared to when I had 3. Much easier when I had 20 years..

IMHO that's what its really about


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## matt267 PE (Oct 14, 2014)

&lt;sarcasm&gt;

Work for the government and you'll always be right.

&lt;/sarcasm&gt;


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## PowerStroke79_PE (Oct 17, 2014)

And if that extra year of experience to make the world a lot better u just do the same thing you did for the past 3 or 4 yrs? I dont think any of this was proposed with the idea of substituting work experience.


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## Lumber Jim (Oct 24, 2014)

Hemi79 said:


> And if that extra year of experience to make the world a lot better u just do the same thing you did for the past 3 or 4 yrs? I dont think any of this was proposed with the idea of substituting work experience.


If you did the exact same thing for 4 years I don't think you should be allowed to sit for the exam. In MN you have to show a progressive increase in responsibility... adding another year would increase the threshold for being allowed to sit for the exam. (not saying MN is better or anything)


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