# Engineers should NEVER be expected to ...



## maryannette (Nov 13, 2009)

... take care of admin and secretarial duties because they happen to be female.


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## BluSkyy (Nov 13, 2009)

yeah, that's makes somebody officially a peckerwood.


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## roadwreck (Nov 13, 2009)

...be forced to wear an adult diaper at work because of their incontinence issues.


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## Fluvial (Nov 13, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> ... take care of admin and secretarial duties because they happen to be female.


I've got one better than that for you.

The company I used to work for had an annual golf tournament for clients. Some of the engineers were hand-picked to play golf with the big wheels, and it was considered quite an honor.

One year I got invited .... to drive the beer cart.


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## benbo (Nov 13, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> I've got one better than that for you.
> The company I used to work for had an annual golf tournament for clients. Some of the engineers were hand-picked to play golf with the big wheels, and it was considered quite an honor.
> 
> One year I got invited .... to drive the beer cart.


On this site I think that would be considered the ultimate honor.


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## Fluvial (Nov 13, 2009)

benbo said:


> On this site I think that would be considered the ultimate honor.


I suppose it depends upon your perspective. I turned them down, by the way. And it wasn't too long after that when I left that job. 

I was only the second female engineer that company had ever hired. So I guess maybe the guys hadn't figured things out yet.


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## Road Guy (Nov 13, 2009)

coffee pot is getting low


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## Ble_PE (Nov 13, 2009)

Road Guy said:


> coffee pot is getting low


and while you're at it, I need some copies made of this spec.


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## roadwreck (Nov 13, 2009)

and bake me a pie!


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm gonna need you to pick up my dry cleaning by 2. Thanks.


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## Fluvial (Nov 13, 2009)

roadwreck said:


> and bake me a pie!



Hey, I already made a cherry cobbler. Did you forget to get a piece?


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## EM_PS (Nov 13, 2009)

^ FedEx? lease:


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## Fluvial (Nov 13, 2009)

I wish I could! It is real yummy. Maybe I should FedEx y'all some Christmas cookies this year. Have you been good?


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## EM_PS (Nov 13, 2009)

:bananalama:


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## Ble_PE (Nov 13, 2009)

:angel:


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## snickerd3 (Nov 13, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> I wish I could! It is real yummy. Maybe I should FedEx y'all some Christmas cookies this year. Have you been good?


i'll have lots of time this yr to bake cookies. can't wait for the smells to fill the house


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## csb (Nov 13, 2009)

AMEN to Mary.


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## Dexman1349 (Nov 13, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> I'm gonna need you to pick up my dry cleaning by 2. Thanks.


Btw, there are several used coffee mugs in the break room sink that won't get clean by themselves...


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## Guest (Nov 13, 2009)

Wow .. where's engineergurl when you need her. She has a story about her interview for her current that is a shocker ....



Fluvial said:


> I wish I could! It is real yummy. Maybe I should FedEx y'all some Christmas cookies this year. Have you been good?


I have been very good this year!!! 

JR


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Nov 13, 2009)

^She got The Shocker during her interview?!? Whoa!


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## MA_PE (Nov 13, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> I've got one better than that for you.
> The company I used to work for had an annual golf tournament for clients. Some of the engineers were hand-picked to play golf with the big wheels, and it was considered quite an honor.
> 
> One year I got invited .... to drive the beer cart.


Wow how lucky can you get? Girls get all the good jobs! The men are left to do the work.

BTW, chocolate chip cookies are my favorite.


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## FLBuff PE (Nov 13, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> ... take care of admin and secretarial duties because they happen to be female.






csb said:


> AMEN to Mary.


I am not a female, but am often left with this duty. Like on Fridays, when our field staff is out, our office guru is not in b/c she doesn't work on Friday (mandated by the boss man), and the boss man is taking his 2 hour Friday lunch. Today, I got back to the office at 1 PM after being out in the field all morning, to find no one here, and the office locked.


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## maryannette (Nov 13, 2009)

All of you guys who made sexist comments can go $h!t in a hat and pull it over your ears.


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## frazil (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm on this project where I need to send out an email every 2 weeks to a large group of people from both sexes from all different organizations. Last year I was gone and another woman took over the emails. When I got back I saw that every email she sent out she addressed "Dear Sirs"

I have no idea why she would do that, but it annoyed me. I can't imagine what the women receiving the email thought. I changed it to "Dear Sir/Madam" because I think its the standard, but who calls anyone Madam??


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## IlPadrino (Nov 13, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> Btw, there are several used coffee mugs in the break room sink that won't get clean by themselves...


I had to throw down the gauntlet last week. I offered to clean all the dishes left in the sink at any time. Of course, by "clean" I mean throw in the garbage. It didn't take long for folks to get the idea.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 13, 2009)

frazil said:


> I'm on this project where I need to send out an email every 2 weeks to a large group of people from both sexes from all different organizations. Last year I was gone and another woman took over the emails. When I got back I saw that every email she sent out she addressed "Dear Sirs"
> I have no idea why she would do that, but it annoyed me. I can't imagine what the women receiving the email thought. I changed it to "Dear Sir/Madam" because I think its the standard, but who calls anyone Madam??


Do very many use "Dear" in e-mails these days? I saw it just today and thought "huh!"... I don't ever remember seeing it. It seems appropriate for a letter to Santa Claus or my Grandmother, but not so much in an e-mail.


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## frazil (Nov 13, 2009)

so how do you address an email to a large group?


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## maryannette (Nov 13, 2009)

I say, "Hey, y'all!"

No, not really.


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## Fluvial (Nov 13, 2009)

I just do something like this:

"All:

It has come to the attention of management that some engineers seem to think rinsing their dishes is beneath them. Kindly do the needful and be policing of your area. Anyone not complying is invited to sh!t in a hat and pull it over their ears.

Sincerely,

Fluvial".

BTW Mary, I hate that too ... complain about one thing and then the stupid remarks come. I think that it is guys' way of trying to defuse the situation. They are trying to joke (and don't realize how lame it looks).


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## maryannette (Nov 13, 2009)

Don't you love that saying, "Go $h!T in a hat and pull it over your ears."? My mom used to say it. The mental image is hilarious. Well, in a fudgeyesque way. I expected some stupid remarks.


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## csb (Nov 13, 2009)

I'm a big fan of using good morning/good afternoon as the time of day dictates. With a less formal group I'll say folks. I will never forget the day that the regional ACPA rep showed up and I was standing right there and my colleague said, "We have a new Pavement Management Engineer," and the guy says, "Great! Where is he? I can't wait to meet him!" I then said hi and he said, "Really?!" It was awkward, to say the least.

I also want to throw onto Mary's initial statement that engineers should never be given a nasty look from the administrative assistant for being asked to do his/her job just because I'm a female. Why should I be expected to mail my own stuff and no one else?


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## Fluvial (Nov 13, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> Don't you love that saying, "Go $h!T in a hat and pull it over your ears."? My mom used to say it. The mental image is hilarious.


I agree, it is hilarious, but I've never heard it before. Thanks for the education!

csb, I'm sure we all have stories like that. I remember calling a company that makes casing spacers, to ask about using them for a certain water line crossing under the Interstate. I was fresh out of school, so I was quite green and was having a hard time explaining what I wanted to the lady on the phone. She was getting exasperated and finally said "Why don't you put the ENGINEER on the phone ?!?! ".

I coldly replied, "Ma'am, you HAVE the engineer on the phone".

When I worked at City Hall the admin ladies all were proud of me - I'd hear them bragging to people that "WE have a LADY engineer. How about that ! ". As a matter of fact, many of the admin ladies I've dealt with over the years seemed to be supportive of my career choice, and made a fuss about it (in a positive way).


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Nov 14, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> All of you guys who made sexist comments can go $h!t in a hat and pull it over your ears.


Really, this emotional, angsty, PMS fueled drama has no place in the office. Maybe you should just stick to cooking and cleaning and let the big boys do the real work.

:wave2:


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## maryannette (Nov 14, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> Really, this chauvinistic, unprofessional, ego fueled drama has no place in the office. Maybe we men should just stick to changing oil and lawn work and let the ladies do the real work.


Fixed it for you. 

:fencing:


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## Fluvial (Nov 14, 2009)

Oh snap !


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## MGX (Nov 14, 2009)

Ladies, I'm totally cool with you having a strong career so I can sit on the couch all day and play video games. A life of lawn work and automotive restoration in my own private garage is a dream worth pursuing while the little lady brings home the bacon.


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## McEngr (Nov 14, 2009)

MGX said:


> Ladies, I'm totally cool with you having a strong career so I can sit on the couch all day and play video games. A life of lawn work and automotive restoration in my own private garage is a dream worth pursuing while the little lady brings home the bacon.


I'm kinda on the MGX bandwagon. If I could make the same amount of pay and just change oil and work on cars all day, I'd be a very happy man. Of course, the reward would be what type of car to work on. I'm not _great _at working on cars, but only because I've never _pursued _it as a career/hobby (too expensive).

I love it that Mary actually admits that there are different abilities typically tied to each gender. Our media and culture debate on if it's nature or nurture in regards to gender strengths and weaknesses - no doubt a by-product of the feminist movement. I love that women have empowered themselves and have been empowered to be on par with men (and inevitably surpass men in areas), but it's also taken a negative effect on the most important role in society: being a mother.

Yes, being a mother is more important than being the most accomplished engineer. I suppose I'm writing this because I listen to NPR in a very blue state and I get agitated at times because women want to also eat the cake.

Sorry for the random response to a light-hearted thread. Just had to vent. ) carry on...


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## maryannette (Nov 14, 2009)

McEngr said:


> ... but it's also taken a negative effect on the most important role in society: being a mother.
> Yes, being a mother is more important than being the most accomplished engineer.


I agree that being a mother is very important. It is important to me, even though I have never been a full-time stay-at-home mother. I have always worked full-time.

I have struggled at times balancing family and career. It's easy to think that you can have it all, but the truth is that nobody can have it all. I have always believed that God had a plan for me. Working in engineering is part of that plan. I have been fortunate enough to have support from a good husband, other family members, and good child-care options. I have made my choices and they have worked for me and my family.

A long time ago, I read an editorial in a magazine that talked about "inexorable destiny". It talked about the paths that we take in life based on our abilities. I think my path is to be an engineer. One of my favorite quotes is from that editorial article by Joel Orr. "I believe in callings. I believe in a God who made each of us unique and who uniquely equipped each of us to pursue the path which we are intended to follow in life."

I believe that God equipped me to be an engineer and a mother and a wife and a friend. How could I say no to any of that?


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## IlPadrino (Nov 15, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> I believe that God equipped me to be an engineer and a mother and a wife and a friend. How could I say no to any of that?


Does God also equip some to be prostitutes and drug dealers?


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## IlPadrino (Nov 15, 2009)

McEngr said:


> I love it that Mary actually admits that there are different abilities typically tied to each gender.


This is the whole point behind valuing diversity... there are different perspectives, talents, opinions, etc. that can only be maximized by having a diverse workforce. I'm STRONGLY against the idea of quotas, though... and think we'll be a stronger nation when we stop "seeing" color, race, sex, or religion.

The comrades didn't have it *all* wrong when they said "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need"


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## maryannette (Nov 15, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Does God also equip some to be prostitutes and drug dealers?


I believe the people who are prostitutes and drug dealers have other abilities. It's about choices, too. What you choose to do with your life can be complicated. I choose to use the abilities that I was blessed with the best way I can. That's my opinion.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 16, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> What you choose to do with your life can be complicated.


Ain't that the truth! I don't disagree with your opinion.


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## Road Guy (Nov 16, 2009)

Mary, Hope you know most of us (except VT) were kidding


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## csb (Nov 16, 2009)

Once upon a time, when I was a college student, I totally agreed with McEngr that women's lib ruined families. Now that I'm a grown up I can more easily see that it's not that black and white. Yes, the housewife of the 1950s served a purpose and many people fondly look back on that as the good ol' days and when women were where they belonged. What that is skipping is looking that the fact that the period of time right after a time where women DID work outside of the home, in large part because of the war effort. When the men came back, they wanted their jobs back and they wanted to provide provide provide, so women were put into super-housewife mode. I don't know as if stay-at-home mom means the same thing now as it meant in the 1950s, nor what it meant even earlier. The duties of the housekeeper have been enhanced by technology.

I choose to work. I choose to be an engineer. I choose to put my son in a loving care environment during the day. I will choose to put him in school, rather than homeschooling. I choose to spend quality time with him in the evenings and days off. I choose not to spoil him out of guilt. I choose to respect women who do stay home. I demand to be treated equally when I am at work doing the same job as a male counter park. I expect part of that demand is that I am held to same standards, rather than given something because of my gender. I am not a number to fill a civil rights requirement. I am an engineer, fulfilling my profession.


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## Road Guy (Nov 16, 2009)

my wife was a stay at home mom for about 3 years, probably the worst 3 years of our marriage, I am sure she was bored out of her damn mind, I dont blame her for wanting to go back to work, considering my kids are in the same pool as most of the others kids that came up in day care, 2 parents working life, there just well adjusted to the semi adjusted adjusted life......


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## maryannette (Nov 16, 2009)

btw, I'm not upset at any comments. I've heard much worse and I don't let it bother me much any more.

The other thing that I have realized about being a working mom who is capable of supporting a family is that it makes my marriage better. I know it wouldn't be the same in all marriages, but for me and my husband, we respect each other and know that the marriage is good not because anyone is trapped and has no other options. It works because we love each other, but also because neither one is dependent. I know that my husband cannot take advantage of me, have unreasonable expectations, or abuse me because I'm trapped. That might be difficult for some to understand, but the independence and freedom keeps my marriage strong.


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## chaosiscash (Nov 16, 2009)

If it makes you feel better, I do administrative stuff all the time. I've run mail, made copies, delivered food, packaged drawing sets, typed up handwritten memos, answered phones, and a lot of other stuff. I get paid on the hour, and if the boss asks me to do one of these things, I do it. It beats being a roofer in the South in July (which I've done as well). I guess stuff like that has never bothered me, and I've never felt like a job was beneath me.

By the way, I'm a registered male engineer.


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## csb (Nov 16, 2009)

I've done all that too and don't mind if it's a team player thing.


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## McEngr (Nov 16, 2009)

csb said:


> I've done all that too and don't mind if it's a team player thing.


csb and Mary and all the rest,

I didn't mean to come across as a male-dominating, narrow-minded brute. If that's the case, I've made a mistake. I believe passionately that fairness should be the common denominator among all working peers of equal competency/education/experience. However, some of us (women and men alike) have become part of the "entitlement generation". I assume no one on this particular thread would classify as such. I personally get along much better with female coworkers. They tend to have less of an ego, and are cooperative and just glad to be working. Those are the kinds of "gents" that I like working along side.


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## csb (Nov 16, 2009)

And I have to say that I'm not upset by anything here either...part of being an engineer is being tough skinned.

I like the opportunity to prove myself and being a woman provides unique challenges that keep life interesting.


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## maryannette (Nov 16, 2009)

Perfect sense.

I worked with a black engineer 20 years ago. (Are we allowed to talk about race?  He and I had some conversations and agreed that we understood each other and had a lot in common.


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## Dleg (Nov 24, 2009)

This all reminds me of when I was the low guy on the totem pole at a Target store in high school. I was the guy who would collect the carts in the parking lot, sweep the floors, and collect all the coat hangers from the cashier stations and return them to the clothing department. Aka the "cart attendant".

One day, after putting up with my menial duties, the store manager, who was a middle-aged woman, told me to clean out the employee's refrigerator in the break room. It was absolutely filthy - beyond anything I have seen since then. I decided right then and there that cleaning the employee's refrigerator was beneath the dignity of a 16 year old pimply high school boy.

So I marched right into the manager's office and faced her down and said "This is..... This is....." She looked at me and said "yes" (with a face that said "no") "... This is b - b - b - bullshit! I'm not cleaning up after all these slobs!" She continued to stare at me silently.

I then said "Yes ma'am" and went back to the break room and cleaned the fridge.

I don't what the purpose of this story is. I just thought I would share.


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## McEngr (Nov 24, 2009)

Dleg said:


> This all reminds me of when I was the low guy on the totem pole at a Target store in high school. I was the guy who would collect the carts in the parking lot, sweep the floors, and collect all the coat hangers from the cashier stations and return them to the clothing department. Aka the "cart attendant".
> One day, after putting up with my menial duties, the store manager, who was a middle-aged woman, told me to clean out the employee's refrigerator in the break room. It was absolutely filthy - beyond anything I have seen since then. I decided right then and there that cleaning the employee's refrigerator was beneath the dignity of a 16 year old pimply high school boy.
> 
> So I marched right into the manager's office and faced her down and said "This is..... This is....." She looked at me and said "yes" (with a face that said "no") "... This is b - b - b - bullshit! I'm not cleaning up after all these slobs!" She continued to stare at me silently.
> ...


Dleg, I like your honesty. I once worked for an x-military man who mowed lawns. I worked all day mowing for Walgreens, McDonalds, etc. He had employed 12 year old boys before hiring me (a 17 year old desperate to find work) and constantly told me that I wasn't worth a 12 year old's work. My mom even got on the phone with him and he proceeded to call her a bad mother. After not paying me for two weeks, I decided to quit. Worst working experience of my life.


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## Master slacker (Nov 24, 2009)

^^^ I would've figured out how much pay he didn't give me and then damage his truck to approximately that amount. Someone would get that money, either me or the garage. h34r:


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## Road Guy (Nov 24, 2009)

my first engineering job was with a small firm based out of Kentucky that had come to Atlanta for a slice of the new Federal Transportation dollars.

To this day I dont like to admit that I worked there for a long 8 months, but towards the end of my time there the owner had a little plane he liked to fly down to his house in Myrtle Beach, and since our office was very close to the Marietta Airport he would stop by after his little vacations.. well one time they picked up some developer clients they were trying to woo in their ford explorer for a night on the town in Atlanta then they drove to the airport for the Myrtle Beach trip, golf, etc,

So anyways, of course I was not invited, no big deal, but when they got back they asked me to clean the car and then also drive to the airport and clean out the plane, I took this to mean "pay someone to clean the car" so I went to one of those autodetailing places and left the car (which was trashed, fast food garbage, beer cans, generally dirtiness......I think the bill was pretty steep but thats what their credit card was for right?

I was already feeling out other people for jobs and I politely refused to clean out "the airplane" I got a big speech about "teamwork and a bnch of other bullshit" it fealt really good to turn in my notice a few weeks later..

there are not many remedial tasks I have no problem doing, have done them in the military, done them here, i generally dont ask secretaries to scan one sheet of paper but I just aint going to clean up someone elses shit...


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## Ble_PE (Nov 24, 2009)

Road Guy said:


> I just aint going to clean up someone elses shit...


I used to say the same thing until mini ble was born...


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## MGX (Nov 24, 2009)

Not totally unrelated but while working at a grocery store while in high school my manager asked me to fix a leaky toilet. I looked at it and diagnosed a bad wax seal. I told him I would fix it for $80. He said "no, fix it on the clock" which was $4.25/ hour at the time. My job was to put groceries on the shelves, not be an apprentice plumber. After three days of him hounding me I said I had forgotten how to fix toilets and he called a plumber who fixed it for $125.

The same happened when a refrigeration compressor ruptured a line.


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## Slugger926 (Nov 25, 2009)

How about work for a manager that can't pass a remedial college algebra class?


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## McEngr (Nov 25, 2009)

Slugger926 said:


> How about work for a manager that can't pass a remedial college algebra class?


Well, thank God for calculators, eh? I think that if he had to count a cashier's till it might be questionable accounting.


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## wvgirl14 (Nov 30, 2009)

Just caught this thread. Where I once worked and was the only female in the engineering department (the only female ever to be hired in that department), we had a client bring us lunch for Christmas as a thank you. Once lunch was over the client proceed to pick up the plates, then the president, my boss, told him not to worried about it, that the secretary and myself would handle it. We were the only females. He also said I could answer the phone when the secretary was out. I saw right there where I stood. Then when I became pregnant with my son he told me I could be considered a liability hence the reason I was not getting a raise even though he offered the only other two guys to work with me a big jump in pay not to leave the company. By the way they still left, and once I got off maturity leave and could get another job, so did I.


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## rppearso (Jan 19, 2010)

The way I look at it is if someone wants to pay me 40-50$/hr to pick up dry cleaning or make copies I dont have a problem with that. Its when the pay is low im out the door I dont care what im doing, im there to make big money thats it.


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## cement (Jan 19, 2010)

rppearso said:


> The way I look at it is if someone wants to pay me 40-50$/hr to pick up dry cleaning or make copies I dont have a problem with that. Its when the pay is low im out the door I dont care what im doing, im there to make big money thats it.


I guess proof reader is out of the running then.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jan 19, 2010)

cement said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > The way I look at it is if someone wants to pay me 40-50$/hr to pick up dry cleaning or make copies I dont have a problem with that. Its when the pay is low im out the door I dont care what im doing, im there to make big money thats it.
> ...


He could proofread text messages or Twitter posts.


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## maryannette (Jan 19, 2010)

rppearso said:


> The way I look at it is if someone wants to pay me 40-50$/hr to pick up dry cleaning or make copies I dont have a problem with that. Its when the pay is low im out the door I dont care what im doing, im there to make big money thats it.


That's exactly what I DON'T want. If you can pay me enough that I'm willing to do anything, that makes me a whore. You own me. That is NOT for me.

I left a job that was going in that direction a couple of years ago. When I turned in my resignation, I was offered a big salary increase to stay. I turned it down. It felt SOOOO good to know that they didn't own me.


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## chaosiscash (Jan 20, 2010)

Apparently I'm a whore.

OK by me, I work to live, not live to work.


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## Ble_PE (Jan 20, 2010)

chaosiscash said:


> OK by me, I work to live, not live to work.


I agree. Of course, I'm lucky enough to like where I work and enjoy coming in everyday.


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## maryannette (Jan 20, 2010)

You guys are missing the point, maybe. I'm making a living, too. It's just that I refuse to stoop to certain things just to make more money.


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## Supe (Jan 20, 2010)

I could say no to certain things, too, but easier work for more money usually isn't one of them.


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## Ble_PE (Jan 20, 2010)

mary :) said:


> You guys are missing the point, maybe. I'm making a living, too. It's just that I refuse to stoop to certain things just to make more money.


I agree with both sides of this argument, however I am looking at things based on the economic situation at this very moment. If there were abundant opportunities out there, I'm sure I would have different thoughts on the matter. I did mention that I enjoy where I work and what I do, so that affects my thoughts. If I was in a crappy work environment, who knows what I would think.


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## maryannette (Jan 20, 2010)

I'm extremely fortunate, too, that I have a good job which I enjoy. I've never been involved in fraud or given sexual favors to advance my position or my paycheck. There are plenty of opportunities. I have to be able to look in the mirror and respect the person I see.


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## Flyer_PE (Jan 20, 2010)

mary :) said:


> I have to be able to look in the mirror and respect the person I see.


Good point. If you don't respect the person you see in the mirror, there's very little chance that anybody else will respect you either.

I learned early on that money is, at best, a temporary salve for doing a job you don't like. I took a substantial pay cut when I left the utility because my personal life is worth more to me than the money I can make in that environment.


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## Chucktown PE (Jan 20, 2010)

I guess I don't see a problem with doing what are perceived to be menial tasks, i.e. making copies, filing, etc. I do what it takes to get the projects done and keep the clients happy, if that means I need to go fetch lunch I'm more than happy to do it. If it means I need to drive a golf cart or go help an operator clean a bar screen or pull sludge samples I'm more than happy. Those are character building exercises in my opinion.

I've mentioned this before, but my dad is a veterinarian and from the ages of 10 to 15 I worked at his office, mostly cleaning kennels. It doesn't get much lower than that. But I did a good job and eventually I was given other responsibilities. Eventually I got a job at a hardware store and had to sweep and mop the joint every other night for about 6 months. I did a good job of it and made sure that place was sparkling every night and I was given other responsibilities. I guess that's why I don't have a problem doing menial tasks now.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jan 20, 2010)

^ I spent three months doign record drawings for a WWTP recently. 300 sheets of nothing but marking up someone's redlines. Hell, just adding 'RECORD DRAWING' to each sheet took a week.

Menial beyond belief, but billable. Entry level CAD tech shoulda been doing it. And when I was going through mech, elec, etc. drawings I was unfamiliar with, I tried to learn something from it. I agree with Chcuk, do what you need to do to keep the client happy. Maybe I'm just used to the small firm mentality of not having a devoted CAD guy or admin to do stuff.


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## Fluvial (Jan 20, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> I guess I don't see a problem with doing what are perceived to be menial tasks, i.e. making copies, filing, etc. I do what it takes to get the projects done and keep the clients happy,


That wasn't the issue of the OP. The issue was expecting the female engineer to do certain things while not expecting the male engineers to do the same things. That is different.

In a good working environment, everybody should be willing to pitch in to do anything needed. Put toner in the copier, catch the phone, drive clients to the airport. That's not what the OP was about.

Keep in mind however that it doesn't make economic sense to have the expensive person doing things that less expensive folks (admin) can do. If you have admin staff, use them. They need to be billable too.


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## chaosiscash (Jan 20, 2010)

mary :) said:


> I have to be able to look in the mirror and respect the person I see.


Yeah, I'm a federal subcontractor (consultant). I have trouble looking my fellow taxpayer in the eye sometimes, but not myself.

I'm not really missing your point, I just think I prioritize differently. Some people want some sort of fulfillment from their career, be it the type of work they do, or who they work with or for, or not having to do so-called "menial" tasks. And thats fine, if that fulfillment is important to you. All I'm saying is that my fulfillment comes from the type of lifestyle I can provide for me and my family. Outside of moral and ethical things, I'll do pretty much whatever I need to for money, and I don't feel "owned" at all.


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## Flyer_PE (Jan 20, 2010)

Fluvial said:


> Keep in mind however that it doesn't make economic sense to have the expensive person doing things that less expensive folks (admin) can do. If you have admin staff, use them. They need to be billable too.


I've said the following a few times along the way: I can and will do that. However, are you sure you want to pay somebody my rate to do that? Sometimes the answer is yes and that's fine.


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## Dexman PE (Jan 20, 2010)

Somehow I agree on all fronts of this conversation:

I agree:

-that my main objective with my career is to provide an enjoyable lifestyle for me and my family. I do not live to provide grading plans for land developers. It is in my job description to do this work, but I do not wake up every morning with the sole purpose of doing it.

-that everyone should be willing and able to help out others when it comes to menial tasks like copying, answering the phones, etc. But I also agree that if someone is on staff specifically to do those tasks, they should do them, especially if they too need to be billable and they bill at a lower rate. Why should I eat up project budget making copies at $100/hr if we have someone on staff hired to do it at $60/hr? I will make my own copies if it's just a quick few pages, but if there is an hour+ of copies, there are better people on staff to do it.

-that personal tasks need to be done by that person (on personal time). There is no place in the professional workplace to have ANYONE (receptionist, engineer, etc) pick up the boss' dry cleaning. That is unless the boss has hired someone specifically to do that task (in which case I would question the overall office environment I work in).

-that a comfortable workplace is essential to achieve such things as productivity, advancement, good client relationships, and ultimately personal satisfaction.

The above specifically does not address gender, because everything I discuss does not rely upon what's between someones legs. Yes I'm an idealist in thinking that an equal day's work should be met with an equal paycheck.

I feel utilizing your position and/or your gender (yes it goes both ways) to gain an advantage is just wrong. I've seen men use their secretaries as their own personal maid, and conversely, I've seen women use their sexuality to influence the men around them. Neither is appropriate.


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## Fluvial (Jan 20, 2010)

I agree with all that too Dex.

To blab a bit more about the economic side of things: from a profitability standpoint, you want everyone in the company working at or near the top of their skill level. I remember working with an administrative lady at a surveying firm who had been with the company over 30 years. She had learned so much over the years that she was able to check legal descriptions and loan surveys. That freed up the PLS down the hall to do other, more profitable things. That's a great example of maximum use of your workforce's skills.

OTOH I knew a P.E. who just didn't want to do much of anything that required work. I had done a floodway analysis for his group (roadway design) and was showing him my hand-drawn plot of the new floodway superimposed on his roadway. He asked me if I'd draw it on a clean copy. I said, "well, I'm kind of busy right now. All you have to do is trace it". He replied (in all seriousness) "That's not in my job description". That kind of non-team-playing really burns my biscuit.


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## FLBuff PE (Jan 20, 2010)

Fluvial said:


> ...really burns my biscuit.


Sounds like ex-hubby Yosemite Sam really rubbed off on you. (My biscuits are burnin', my biscuits are burnin'!)


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## Fluvial (Jan 20, 2010)

^^ You would not believe the weird-a$$ sayings I picked up from that man.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jan 20, 2010)

chaosiscash said:


> Outside of moral and ethical things, I'll do pretty much whatever I need to for money, and I don't feel "owned" at all.


"There are two things I won't do for money. i won't kill for it and I won't marry for it. Other than those, I'm pretty much open to anything."--Jim Rockford


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## maryannette (Jan 20, 2010)

Dex, you said what I wanted to say very eloquently. And, I'm an idealist, also.


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## Dexman PE (Jan 20, 2010)

mary :) said:


> Dex, you said what I wanted to say very eloquently. And, I'm an idealist, also.


Thank you.


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## rppearso (Jan 22, 2010)

I should make a correction, im not going to do anything illegal or immoral or anything to diminish my professional credibility for money but im not benethe making copies for 40-100$/hr if my supervisor insists on it.


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## Dexman PE (Jan 22, 2010)

rppearso said:


> ...anything to diminish my professional credibility...





rppearso said:


> ...benethe...


Spell checking what you write goes a long way towards at least maintaining credibility.


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## rppearso (Jan 22, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > ...anything to diminish my professional credibility...
> ...


Eh its an internet forum, I spell check official reports I do thats all that matters.


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## FLBuff PE (Jan 22, 2010)

[No message]


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## Dexman PE (Jan 22, 2010)

rppearso said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > rppearso said:
> ...


Says the guy who is crying over the inability to have engaging conversations...


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## Santiagj (Jan 22, 2010)

I have a difficult time engage .... conversating.....

I like .... your.. avatar


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