# Is it worth it to take the SE exam?



## Bcarvi2

Hi guys,

I am going back and forth whether or not to take the SE exam and hoped I could get some quality feedback here. A little background info on me...I am a licensed civil engineer in Louisiana. I have designed both bridges and commercial buildings for a small civil/structural consulting firm. Also, I recently passed the CA Seismic and Surveying exams to obtain a license in that state as we do a few projects there. I think that will help me some on the SE since I am now familiar with Seismic where I had absolutely zero knowledge about it before the CA test.  We don't get many earthquakes down here!

I've been weighing the pros and cons of taking this test. A few Pros include: better understanding of my field, gaining more respect from current and future employers by having an SE behind my name, no more tests lingering over my head!, leverage for a higher salary. Some of the Cons: won't get a raise from current employer (likely), time away from family and friends, buying expensive codes/review courses, my wife is having our first child in February and I'm taking the test in April which will be very stressful household!

For those who live in a state where an SE license is not required, what benefits did you gain from passing the test?  Will an SE license be required everywhere in the future?

This board has been very helpful in showing me the amount of time I will need to study. I will likely signup for one of the recommended review courses. Thanks for any and all responses, I look forward to any advice you can offer me!


----------



## TehMightyEngineer

I was on board until you said you have a kid on the way. I'd plan on at least waiting until October.

I took the SE exam in-lieu of the PE exam; closest SE state half the country away. It seemed to make the most sense given my diverse structural background and that I wanted to challenge myself. Overall I considered it a great choice and am exceedingly proud I passed it.

The biggest thing I feel you'll find about the SE exam is whether you pass it or not (hopefully you do) you'll gain a much more complete understanding of structural engineering because of it. It makes a fantastic capstone and really helped me turn into (or at least what I hope) a well-rounded structural engineer.

As for the future; I suspect we'll see the SE pop up in more states. Florida tried it recently and I know there's a push by the structural engineering associations out there to make the SE more prevalent in the state boards. I highly doubt you'll look back on the SE and say that wasn't worth it or was a waste of time.

Definitely only attempt it if you can actually fit in the required number of study hours and afford to get all the codes and study texts required. It's going to take some money but not ridiculous amounts; time is the real killer. I'd highly recommend a review course if you'll be having a young child around and need to be efficient in studying.


----------



## CyclonePE

I agree with TME.  I thought I knew structural engineering until I started to study for this test.  Even if I had failed the test what I learned by studying would have made it worth the time.


----------



## kevo_55

I would recommend taking the exam if you are up to it. It is a big commitment, but if you pass you will benefit greatly from it.

I am a bit older than some of you but I was taking the exams back when there was no 2 day SE exam. I took the SE 1 and SE 2 exam. I don't live in a seismic state but my company does work all over the country. So, I decided to take the structural exams. After passing those, I decided to take the civil exam. After that I decided to take the CA surveying &amp; seismic exams. After that, I just decided to fly to CA yet again and take their SE 3 exam.

After every exam that I passed, I received more perks at work, higher pay, more managing, and yadda yadda yadda. 

It is definitely worth it in the long term.


----------



## VTBridge

I agree. I'm also a PE in a non seismic state and have my CA PE and have passed the vertical SE. Even with an incomplete SE it has led to work on projects in CA that would not have been offered to others and a good raise at the end of the year. I also agree that the review of basic structural concepts with a focus on their code applications is invaluable, especially after a few years of experience which allows concepts to be understood from a practical standpoint that just wasn't possible in an undergraduate course.


----------



## smahurin

I agree with the others that going through the process of studying did help me pick up things that I had never encountered, knew or maybe didn't have a great understand of.  It's also allowed our company to pursue work in at least 1 SE state that we originally couldn't work in (although we did have 2 SE's already that could have gotten comity to pick up their license in that state so I think that probably didn't help the company that much).  I do think certain states will add the SE in the coming years, but I highly doubt that most states will incorporate it in our lifetime, and the ones that do will likely be a slow process.  But it wouldn't surprise me that over the next 20 years to see 5-10 additional states start to adopt certain requirements.  Keep in mind that even many of the states that do have an SE license are only title act states or roster designation states in which you're just rostered differently or you can officially call yourself a Structural Engineer in those states but can realistically do all the design necessary.  To my knowledge there are 2 full practice restriction states (IL, HI) and only 6 partial practice restriction states (AK, CA, NV, OR, UT, WA).  So out 50 states a total of 8 restrict practice... that's a pretty small number.  

I think for people practicing in Non-SE states it really comes down to whether you WANT to take it or not.  It might sound oversimplified, but I just wanted to take it.  Why?  I guess the challenge, the ability to be done with testing forever once passed, the vanity of being an SE I suppose.  All those things contributed, but for a multitude of reasons I guess I just "wanted" to take it.  You can ration it anyway you want, but if its not needed, its really just personal preference.


----------



## VTBridge

To add to that list, GA requires the SE exam for a PE license (to stamp structural plans) for anyone who has not been licensed for 5 years.


----------



## Bcarvi2

Thanks for the advice guys, I greatly appreciate it!  I'm leaning towards taking it and realize I need to start reading/studying soon if I'm taking it in April.


----------



## Andy Lin

I totally agree that having an SE is going to help you in your career (in fact, it had helped mine tremendously).

But I have to play devil's advocate here for a second...

...If you are going to take it in April, make sure your wife is on-board!

If she can't accept the fact that you'll be "pretty busy" for a few months and you'll hardly have _any time_ to help her out between January and April, it might cause a lot of grief later on. It might also cause you to _not_ be able to study effectively.

Also, she might say "no prob babe, I can't handle it" right now, but when the reality kicks in, she might feel differently. So make sure you guys explore it together and play out some of the "worst case" scenarios to make sure this stressful period is not going to affect your relationship.

My daughter was born last year and man, what a thrill, and so much work!

If I were in your situation, I seriously wouldn't know what to do either but I would start off by having a serious conversation with my wife.

Hope that makes sense.

Here are some things for you to think about:


It's recommended that you spend roughly 300+ hours to prepare for the SE - (you can use that number to backtrack roughly how long it's going to take you to study).

Most babies cry a lot -- will you be able to study with a crying baby in the background?

Babies grow up super fast -- I mean, in the beginning, you can see significant changes week-to-week and then later on, month-to-month. Are you OK missing out on a few things in the beginning?

Friends and families will be visiting after the baby is born. You'll have to account for that in your study time.

Your wife (and you) will be exhausted because babies don't sleep continuously for a long time like we do. When they wake up, you have to feed/change diaper/rock...etc. Lack of sleep means you will not be able to study effectively nor efficiently.

You'll be spending time shopping and buying baby stuff before and after the baby is born. Account for that also.

There's probably more but you get the gist and the point is that: sometimes we may feel unstoppable and we feel like can really do _everything_; but the truth is that... we often can't.

I mean, the exam will still be around; you still have years ahead of you to advance your career; but spending time to take care of your first child when he/she is born... you really only get that one chance.

Sorry this probably made it harder for you to make the decision but I just wanted to throw in some reality so you won't be _too_ stressed out later.


----------



## David Connor SE

Bcarvi2,

I think you get the idea on whether or not you should take the exam. You definitely should! My guess is you are fairly young (under 40), and if this is your chosen professional you should strive to accomplish as much as you can. On the consulting side of things, having an SE is almost like having your PhD. Also, you don't know what the future holds with PE/SE license requirements and it would be good to have that worry behind you. If you are 45 years or older it may not make sense to take it if your work is in a non-SE state. You should be able to grandfather in if there are any changes in licensure requirements.  

That being said, you have a baby on the way and I would take TME's advice and wait until October. I would do the following:

1. Only take 1 component at a time (Vertical or Lateral). Consider taking lateral first. That's what I did and actually found it somewhat easier to study for.

2. Since you have bridge experience, you may want to consider taking the bridge exam. For the essay questions you will have 3 questions to answer, instead of the 4 for the buildings essay portion. Plus you will only have 1 code to fumble through in the afternoon, that being AASHTO.

3. The new code standards for the SE exam will come out in November. Wait until than before getting codes together. Once they come out, go ahead and start gathering up the codes. 

4. Go ahead and start studying in November as you gather codes together, but once your baby arrives take that time to enjoy it for a couple months. Hopefully by then you will have all the codes and won't have to worry about doing that.

5. Hopefully by April/May the routines will be settled and the family visits will be done. Then you can really start studying. With taking 1 component at a time, I would assume about 10-15 hours of study per week.    

Good luck!

David Connor, SE, PE


----------



## VTBridge

David Connor said:


> The new code standards for the SE exam will come out in November.


David, interested to know why you think the code cycle will change this spring. many of the codes (ACI 318, ACI 530, IBC) are on 3 year cycles and changed in spring 15. It would follow that they won't change again until spring 18. 

The exception may be AASHTO which changes every two years and is currently 4 years behind. 

Do you have a source on this, or just speculation. I'm just curious because I had planned on waiting until spring to take the lateral portion, but maybe it's better to cram for a few months and give it a shot this fall. I think tomorrow is the registration deadline.


----------



## Lukus

I chatted online with an NCEES rep earlier this year and I seemed to get a strong indication that the codes would change this Fall.  Also, I don't see AASHTO changing without the ACI changing as AASHTO 7th Edition had major changes to Section 5 Concrete consistent with the changes in ACI 318-14.


----------



## VTBridge

That sounds reasonable, I was purely guessing and my chat with NCEES got me nowhere. There were significant changes to AASHTO 2016 interims, more so than the 2014 code I think so it will depend if the interims are included in the update. 

I'll see what happens in November and keep the printer ready.


----------



## David Connor SE

It's a guess, but they have had the same standards for a while now and most of the codes they reference now have newer editions out. So, that's all I'm going on.


----------



## bassplayer45

I am in a non-SE state of Indiana. I got it for 1, personal goal set in college, and 2, prestige. I wont lie, I like the idea of having it after my name. Our company is trying hard to get work in Illinois, so we needed one to start poking around. My company was very generous and agreed to pay for all my attempts and all my study material. I also got in writing up front what the raise would be. If you company isn't going to give a raise, I think it is very reasonable to request they pay for the study materials and codes, because at the very least, they can still use those codes at the company for pretty much anything


----------



## Phatso86

i am i  florida and i was debating really hard on whether i should take it. 

for me, it would be absolutely ZERO benefit. literally zero. i do not work for a firm nor plan to. i remember i actually studied for it when i took my civil structural exam like six years ago. i was probably ready then and had the time to study (was unemployed). 

i think im sticking with just my civil PE and masters degree in structural. I call myself a structural engineer because of my graduate degree. you cant reaaly compare a two day exam that takes 300hrs of study (8 weeks) to a degree which takes two years (it actually took me only a single year).

also just got my PE electrical this october, thank goodness. that one helps much more than the SE (for me at least)


----------



## Phatso86

Phatso86 said:


> i am i  florida and i was debating really hard on whether i should take it.
> 
> for me, it would be absolutely ZERO benefit. literally zero. i do not work for a firm nor plan to. i remember i actually studied for it when i took my civil structural exam like six years ago. i was probably ready then and had the time to study (was unemployed).
> 
> i think im sticking with just my civil PE and masters degree in structural. I call myself a structural engineer because of my graduate degree. you cant reaaly compare a two day exam that takes 300hrs of study (8 weeks) to a degree which takes two years (it actually took me only a single year).
> 
> also just got my PE electrical this october, thank goodness. that one helps much more than the SE (for me at least)


also, at this time. i wouldnt be able to study for this for another two years or so. 

working on obtaining various contractor licenses. thats where the money is


----------



## Mithrandir918

Phatso86 said:


> also, at this time. i wouldnt be able to study for this for another two years or so.
> 
> working on obtaining various contractor licenses. thats where the money is


I envy the rest of this country that doesnt have to go through the suffering of this exam.  In Illinois if you work with structures and do not have an SE you have no future.  This test takes such a toll on yourself and your family.  If 300 hrs of study was all it took to guarantee a pass rate it would be a no-brainer.  I would say a majority of people take this test at least 3 time so you are looking at carving out about a year of your life, and this is not being pessimistic, this test is not about how smart you are, its about how well you can take an exam period...... I have experienced Doctors with 35 years of structural experience never pass this exam but then a young engineer with 4 years of experience pass it first time.

Its all about goals.  If you are willing to take the sacrifice and your family is willing to take it along with you then shoot for the moon!


----------



## Phatso86

Mithrandir918 said:


> I envy the rest of this country that doesnt have to go through the suffering of this exam.  In Illinois if you work with structures and do not have an SE you have no future.  This test takes such a toll on yourself and your family.  If 300 hrs of study was all it took to guarantee a pass rate it would be a no-brainer.  I would say a majority of people take this test at least 3 time so you are looking at carving out about a year of your life, and this is not being pessimistic, this test is not about how smart you are, its about how well you can take an exam period...... I have experienced Doctors with 35 years of structural experience never pass this exam but then a young engineer with 4 years of experience pass it first time.
> 
> Its all about goals.  If you are willing to take the sacrifice and your family is willing to take it along with you then shoot for the moon!


well remember, a kid in school has a brain that is like a sponge. so easier to grasp. on top of this, they recently experienced test taking and studying.

i dont think its fair to comapre a 24 year old to a 55 year old

i'm thinking that the reason my civil test was so much easier than my power pe test was because i was more than five years younger. i got the concepts but they felt so tricky in my mind. luckily passed first try.

im really debating on at least seeing if i can study a tiny bit and see how well i do with se practice test. i really dont need this test whatsoever, but ive been obsessing lately with just freaking passing it


----------



## Phatso86

Phatso86 said:


> well remember, a kid in school has a brain that is like a sponge. so easier to grasp. on top of this, they recently experienced test taking and studying.
> 
> i dont think its fair to comapre a 24 year old to a 55 year old
> 
> i'm thinking that the reason my civil test was so much easier than my power pe test was because i was more than five years younger. i got the concepts but they felt so tricky in my mind. luckily passed first try.
> 
> im really debating on at least seeing if i can study a tiny bit and see how well i do with se practice test. i really dont need this test whatsoever, but ive been obsessing lately with just freaking passing it


holy crap

that's the last time i use my ipad. That took me like 15 minutes to type and sounds like shit. lol


----------



## NJmike PE

Phatso86 said:


> holy crap
> 
> that's the last time i use my ipad. That took me like 15 minutes to type and sounds like shit. lol


----------



## StandardPractice

Phatso86 said:


> i am i  florida and i was debating really hard on whether i should take it.
> 
> for me, it would be absolutely ZERO benefit. literally zero. i do not work for a firm nor plan to. i remember i actually studied for it when i took my civil structural exam like six years ago. i was probably ready then and had the time to study (was unemployed).
> 
> i think im sticking with just my civil PE and masters degree in structural. I call myself a structural engineer because of my graduate degree. you cant reaaly compare a two day exam that takes 300hrs of study (8 weeks) to a degree which takes two years (it actually took me only a single year).
> 
> also just got my PE electrical this october, thank goodness. that one helps much more than the SE (for me at least)






Phatso86 said:


> also, at this time. i wouldnt be able to study for this for another two years or so.
> 
> working on obtaining various contractor licenses. thats where the money is


The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future. It's an exam that will at minimum further your general structural engineering knowledge. Also, I would say it is worth more than a MSE when it comes to comparing the practical application of each accomplishment. A MSE doesn't *legally* qualify you to stamp structural drawings, but passing a PE and/or SE does.


----------



## Phatso86

NJmike PE said:


>


grammar nazis?


----------



## Phatso86

StandardPractice said:


> The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future. It's an exam that will at minimum further your general structural engineering knowledge. Also, I would say it is worth more than a MSE when it comes to comparing the practical application of each accomplishment. A MSE doesn't *legally* qualify you to stamp structural drawings, but passing a PE and/or SE does.


i don't need the SE title to stamp structural drawings. I've been doing this for years now.

shouldn't confuse people with misinformation


----------



## matt267 PE

Phatso86 said:


> shouldn't confuse people with misinformation


What misinformation are you talking about?


----------



## Phatso86

matt267 PE said:


> What misinformation are you talking about?


" The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future "

unless he meant that the knowledge gained never has zero benefit, which would technically not be relevant


----------



## kevo_55

opcorn:


----------



## TehMightyEngineer

Phatso86 said:


> i don't need the SE title to stamp structural drawings. I've been doing this for years now.
> 
> shouldn't confuse people with misinformation






StandardPractice said:


> but passing a PE *and/or* SE does.


Emphasis mine.


----------



## Phatso86

TehMightyEngineer said:


> Emphasis mine.


" " The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future " "

read that text again. this quote "  but passing a PE *and/or* SE does. " renders the former completely meaningless


----------



## matt267 PE

Phatso86 said:


> " The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future "
> 
> unless he meant that the knowledge gained never has zero benefit, which would technically not be relevant


But if someone isn't practicing SE and doesn't see themselves practicing in the future, what good would the SE do for them?

A MSE doesn't allow anyone to stamp plans. And having a PE doesn't make you qualified to stamp drawings either.

Almost anyone can study for a test and pass an exam. But it takes proper education and experience to understand the theory to make one ethically qualified to stamp plans.


----------



## matt267 PE

Phatso86 said:


> " " The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future " "
> 
> read that text again. this quote "  but passing a PE *and/or* SE does. " renders the former completely meaningless


Dude you suck at using your ipad. You should get an Android.


----------



## StandardPractice

Phatso86 said:


> " The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future "
> 
> unless he meant that the knowledge gained never has zero benefit, which would technically not be relevant


Phatso86, please don't take my post personal. Purpose of my statement is to hopefully persuade yourself or another individual who may stroll across this thread to see the value in the SE exam if they are a practicing engineer. Is the SE exam necessary? No. Does it qualify you over another with a PhD or MSE to perform work around the country? By law yes, but by knowledge not necessarily.

It is an exam that has proven time and again to produce better engineers whether they pass the exam or not. And that's the end goal. For our profession to advance in knowledge for the benefit of public safety. As the profession progresses, hopefully how we assess our skills as engineers will as well and who knows a better method to test knowledge may be proposed.


----------



## Ken PE 3.1

matt267 PE said:


> 12 minutes ago, Phatso86 said: " The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future "
> unless he meant that the knowledge gained never has zero benefit, which would technically not be relevant
> 
> 
> 
> But if someone isn't practicing SE and doesn't see themselves practicing in the future, what good would the SE do for them?A MSE doesn't allow anyone to stamp plans. And having a PE doesn't make you qualified to stamp drawings either.
> 
> Almost anyone can study for a test and pass an exam. But it takes proper education and experience to understand the theory to make one ethically qualified to stamp plans.
Click to expand...

Not according to some around here.


----------



## smahurin

StandardPractice said:


> The SE title, if obtained, never has ZERO benefit unless you don't see yourself practicing structural engineering in near future. It's an exam that will at minimum further your general structural engineering knowledge. Also, I would say it is worth more than a MSE when it comes to comparing the practical application of each accomplishment. A MSE doesn't *legally* qualify you to stamp structural drawings, but passing a PE and/or SE does.


If by MSE, you mean a master's in structural engineering, I guess I completely disagree. I think the PE/SE are valuable from a marketability standpoint... and because as you pointed out they mean you can take legal responsibility for a design and therefore be sued for your designs.  Which certainly has value.  My masters, however, gave me a far greater understanding of the mechanics, behavior and rationale behind why many code provisions exist.  That's not to discourage people from getting a PE or an SE... but of the 3 I value my masters far far more than either license.  And it's not even close.  But everyone will have their own emphasis and value system.


----------



## TehMightyEngineer

smahurin said:


> If by MSE, you mean a master's in structural engineering, I guess I completely disagree. I think the PE/SE are valuable from a marketability standpoint... and because as you pointed out they mean you can take legal responsibility for a design and therefore be sued for your designs.  Which certainly has value.  My masters, however, gave me a far greater understanding of the mechanics, behavior and rationale behind why many code provisions exist.  That's not to discourage people from getting a PE or an SE... but of the 3 I value my masters far far more than either license.  And it's not even close.  But everyone will have their own emphasis and value system.


Interesting, it's hard to find someone who have taken all three (PE, SE, MSE) and have a balanced opinion on the merits. Makes me wonder if I should consider getting a MSE before I get too much older...


----------



## Seppe

Just so we're clear, Phatso doesn't think the SE is of any value, and his only interest in the topic beyond said fact is that he is still kinda sorta intrigued to see if he could pass it.

So, let's move on.

Yes, I believe the SE is a valuable credential.  Without a doubt, the hard work put in as part of the SE licensure process increases a structural engineer's knowledge base and comprehension level.

As we sit here going into 2017, if you're forty or younger and your primary engineering discipline is structural, you'd be best-served to pursue your SE.  The credential itself is not going away, nor should it.  The ever-evolving and increasingly-complex field of structural engineering demands it.


----------



## Phatso86

Seppe said:


> Just so we're clear, Phatso doesn't think the SE is of any value, and his only interest in the topic beyond said fact is that he is still kinda sorta intrigued to see if he could pass it.
> 
> So, let's move on.
> 
> Yes, I believe the SE is a valuable credential.  Without a doubt, the hard work put in as part of the SE licensure process increases a structural engineer's knowledge base and comprehension level.
> 
> As we sit here going into 2017, if you're forty or younger and your primary engineering discipline is structural, you'd be best-served to pursue your SE.  The credential itself is not going away, nor should it.  The ever-evolving and increasingly-complex field of structural engineering demands it.


it's not my opinion that the Florida engineering board itself places no value on one's passing of the SE exam. Or as an employee described it, "meaningless."

I suppose a lot of people here are simply not comprehending English sentences.


----------



## matt267 PE

Phatso86 said:


> I suppose a lot of people here are simply not comprehending English sentences.


Part of that is your fault for creating sentences that sound like they fell out of a douche. 

But we'll blame that darn ipad.


----------



## NJmike PE

Phatso86 said:


> I suppose a lot of people here are simply not comprehending English sentences.


Dude, get over yourself. NO ONE gives a flying fuck that you think you are some kind of superman because you passed the PE exam of a discipline other than that which you commonly practice engineering under. It's an exam based upon minimal competency and you were able to pass it with less then a normal amount of preparation. And with this bullshit about comprehension and grammar- you should chill out a bit. This is an engineering forum.  You don't need to constantly combat others here and if you continue to feel the need for it, then you'll probably be escorted out the door.Try to chill out a bit.


----------



## smahurin

TehMightyEngineer said:


> Interesting, it's hard to find someone who have taken all three (PE, SE, MSE) and have a balanced opinion on the merits. Makes me wonder if I should consider getting a MSE before I get too much older...


I'd definitely encourage all structural engineers to do that.  I also realize everyone is at a different places in their lives.

I know there are countless structural engineers who are successful with just a bachelors, but I can honestly say I wouldn't be one of them. Me and a coworker (also with his masters) were discussing this the other day.  There are so many things that we deal with daily in our job that don't fit neatly and cleanly into some code provision.  I think my masters gave me the theoretical knowledge and understanding of the mechanics so I can figure out why code provisions exist and what their intent is.  Hopefully, because of this I'm able to more effectively figure out how to tackle the out-of-the-box issues that seem to arise far more often than you think.  I just feel i'd be hopelessly lost without the background it has provided me.  I'm not sure I'm necessarily competent, but I hope/think it makes me less incompetent!

I sound like an advertisement...


----------



## matt267 PE

^ Well said @smahurin!!!



smahurin said:


> I think my masters gave me the* theoretical knowledge* and understanding of the mechanics so I can figure out why code provisions exist and what their intent is.


This is why engineers need to understand the theory and why the PE exams include some theory. Right @Phatso86?


----------



## kevo_55

opcorn:


----------



## Ken PE 3.1

College degrees don't equate to credentials in the world of engineering. PE's and, in the world of structural types, SE's are the credentials to have. Thankfully for some, you don't need these credentials in order to have a successful career. In my world of consulting, a PE is more valuable to a masters degree.

And, as pointed out, having a PE and not being a douche is difficult for a narcissist.


----------



## smahurin

Ken PE 3.0 said:


> College degrees don't equate to credentials in the world of engineering. PE's and, in the world of structural types, SE's are the credentials to have. Thankfully for some, you don't need these credentials in order to have a successful career. In my world of consulting, a PE is more valuable to a masters degree.
> 
> And, as pointed out, having a PE and not being a douche is difficult for a narcissist.


That's where the debate comes into play though in my opinion.  The industry only cares if you have a PE (and maybe an SE) and has no concern whether you have a bachelors, masters, PhD, ninja black belt, etc.  And I don't think there is really any argument to be made there.  

And so if there are people out there who feel that a PE/SE is more important or valuable to them, I can't tell them they are wrong.  I do think that the legal credentials, PE/SE, have value to an individual and even more value to an organization.  I chose to get my SE even though I'm in a non-SE state and am glad I did so.  However, I personally feel that better understanding of the material (even if it comes without a legal credential) is more valuable to ME as an individual.

I think this is one of those issues where there is no right answer.  It's just up to ones own opinion.


----------



## Ken PE 3.1

smahurin said:


> 14 minutes ago, Ken PE 3.0 said:   College degrees don't equate to credentials in the world of engineering. PE's and, in the world of structural types, SE's are the credentials to have. Thankfully for some, you don't need these credentials in order to have a successful career. In my world of consulting, a PE is more valuable to a masters degree.
> 
> And, as pointed out, having a PE and not being a douche is difficult for a narcissist.
> 
> 
> 
> That's where the debate comes into play though in my opinion.  The industry only cares if you have a PE (and maybe an SE) and has no concern whether you have a bachelors, masters, PhD, ninja black belt, etc.  And I don't think there is really any argument to be made there.  And so if there are people out there who feel that a PE/SE is more important or valuable to them, I can't tell them they are wrong.  I do think that the legal credentials, PE/SE, have value to an individual and even more value to an organization.  I chose to get my SE even though I'm in a non-SE state and am glad I did so.  However, I personally feel that better understanding of the material (even if it comes without a legal credential) is more valuable to ME as an individual.
> 
> I think this is one of those issues where there is no right answer.  It's just up to ones own opinion.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree with you. It all comes down to worth: self-worth or professional worth. Having a ME would probably make the PE/SE a slight bit easier. I wouldn't know, my former boss told me he would hire a PE over a ME any day of the week. That was all I needed to hear.


----------



## thekzieg

smahurin said:


> That's where the debate comes into play though in my opinion.  The industry only cares if you have a PE (and maybe an SE) and has no concern whether you have a bachelors, masters, PhD, ninja black belt, etc.  And I don't think there is really any argument to be made there.
> 
> And so if there are people out there who feel that a PE/SE is more important or valuable to them, I can't tell them they are wrong.  I do think that the legal credentials, PE/SE, have value to an individual and even more value to an organization.  I chose to get my SE even though I'm in a non-SE state and am glad I did so.  However, I personally feel that better understanding of the material (even if it comes without a legal credential) is more valuable to ME as an individual.
> 
> I think this is one of those issues where there is no right answer.  It's just up to ones own opinion.


Having both an ME and a PE myself, I think the work experience required to attain my PE was been the most valuable. However, I will place the caveat that went straight from my bachelors to my masters, and had the college mindset of "just pass the classes" while getting my ME, so I may have missed out on a lot of value.

I really think it's a subjective matter and there's no one best option for everyone. 

But my bosses definitely consider the SE to be a valuable credential and have also hired several engineers who have their PE but not their ME.


----------



## StandardPractice

Ken PE 3.0 said:


> I don't disagree with you. It all comes down to worth: self-worth or professional worth. Having a ME would probably make the PE/SE a slight bit easier. I wouldn't know, my former boss told me he would hire a PE over a ME any day of the week. That was all I needed to hear.






thekzieg PE said:


> Having both an ME and a PE myself, I think the work experience required to attain my PE was been the most valuable. However, I will place the caveat that went straight from my bachelors to my masters, and had the college mindset of "just pass the classes" while getting my ME, so I may have missed out on a lot of value.
> 
> I really think it's a subjective matter and there's no one best option for everyone.
> 
> But my bosses definitely consider the SE to be a valuable credential and have also hired several engineers who have their PE but not their ME.


I think *smahurin* meant "ME" as himself. And *smahurin* I agree a masters degree will give you better grasp on theory and a better engineer overall, but unfortunately all post-graduate programs are not equal in standard, thus an exam like the PE or SE is necessary to create some sort of arbitrary hurdle into the engineering profession. Are those exams perfect no, but it provides a base level of measure. As you say, there is no right or wrong answer...it's all about personal goals and how an individual wants to navigate his/her career path.


----------



## bassplayer45

I have the elusive trifecta. MSE, SE, and PE.

PE with emphasis on structural is perfectly adequate for the everyday engineering here in Indiana.  I think you start to stretch it when you get into seismic in the Evansville area, but with the right mentoring and examples, you can learn enough to be proficient

Anything higher than zone 2 should probably have an SE in my personal opinion, or be under the direct supervision of someone who has it.

I wouldn't trust myself designing something structural right out of school with just an MSE and no guidance / mentorship reviewing the work. My masters gave me a great base for theory and analysis, but It didn't have a lot of design. I learned that on the job working for senior structural engineers.


----------



## Phatso86

bassplayer45 said:


> I have the elusive trifecta. MSE, SE, and PE.
> 
> PE with emphasis on structural is perfectly adequate for the everyday engineering here in Indiana.  I think you start to stretch it when you get into seismic in the Evansville area, but with the right mentoring and examples, you can learn enough to be proficient
> 
> Anything higher than zone 2 should probably have an SE in my personal opinion, or be under the direct supervision of someone who has it.
> 
> I wouldn't trust myself designing something structural right out of school with just an MSE and no guidance / mentorship reviewing the work. My masters gave me a great base for theory and analysis, but It didn't have a lot of design. I learned that on the job working for senior structural engineers.


Is MSE a title? I would say not for the same reason that I would say a B.S. isn't a title.

The real trifecta would be PhD, SE, PE since they are all titles.


----------



## Phatso86

thekzieg PE said:


> Having both an ME and a PE myself, I think the work experience required to attain my PE was been the most valuable. However, I will place the caveat that went straight from my bachelors to my masters, and had the college mindset of "just pass the classes" while getting my ME, so I may have missed out on a lot of value.
> 
> I really think it's a subjective matter and there's no one best option for everyone.
> 
> But my bosses definitely consider the SE to be a valuable credential and have also hired several engineers who have their PE but not their ME.


Unfortunately I had that same mind set. I graduated at 21 with a master's in structural and with less friends than I came into college with. What a mistake that was...


----------



## NJmike PE

Phatso86 said:


> Unfortunately I had that same mind set. I graduated at 21 with a master's in structural and with less friends than I came into college with. What a mistake that was...


there's a shock!


----------



## engineergurl

Phatso86 said:


> Unfortunately I had that same mind set. I graduated at 21 with a master's in structural and with less friends than I came into college with. What a mistake that was...


:blink:

perhaps one should consider the probability of that actually being a dependent variable?


----------



## thekzieg

Phatso86 said:


> Unfortunately I had that same mind set. I graduated at 21 with a master's in structural and with less friends than I came into college with. What a mistake that was...


Technically it'd be _fewer_ friends, and that was actually the exact opposite of my situation. Typically when you're getting through school just to have it done you have plenty of time for socializing. Did you have to do some sort of running start program to get a master's degree finished so early? Also, did they make you pay grad school tuition or were you on good terms with some professors so that you got an assistantship research project like I did?


----------



## matt267 PE

thekzieg PE said:


> Did you have to do some sort of running start program to get a master's degree finished so early?


I'm guessing he's just smart ass hell and was able to pass the tests without understanding the theory. I'm also guessing he gave people attitude when they tried to help him. He likely bitched about how stupid the test was too.


----------



## Ken PE 3.1

matt267 PE said:


> 5 minutes ago, thekzieg PE said: Did you have to do some sort of running start program to get a master's degree finished so early?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing he's just smart ass hell and was able to pass the tests without understanding the theory. I'm also guessing he gave people attitude when they tried to help him. He likely bitched about how stupid the test was too.
Click to expand...

Who needs friends anyways?


----------



## thekzieg

Ken PE 3.0 said:


> Who needs friends anyways?


Psychologically healthy humans.

And some other mammals.


----------



## matt267 PE

Ken PE 3.0 said:


> Who needs friends anyways?


Not me. I hate people. That tends to get in the way of friends.


----------



## NJmike PE

Even Tom from Myspace doesn't want to be his friend


----------



## Phatso86

matt267 PE said:


> I'm guessing he's just smart ass hell and was able to pass the tests without understanding the theory. I'm also guessing he gave people attitude when they tried to help him. He likely bitched about how stupid the test was too.


you mean like the power exam that was mostly theory which i still passed on first go?

contradicted yourself there, buddy


----------



## matt267 PE

Phatso86 said:


> you mean like the power exam that was mostly theory which i still passed on first go?
> 
> contradicted yourself there, buddy


hahahah, yes, yes that's the one. You cried for about 4 weeks after the exam about how it was unfair that there was so much theory on the exam. Had you failed you would still be crying. But, lucky for us, you passes. So you must be the most qualified power PE out there.

Awww, are we really buddies? That's so sweet.


----------



## Phatso86

matt267 PE said:


> I'm also guessing he gave people attitude when they tried to help him.


like the guy that told me i needed 4 years of EE schools and 4 years working in the field to know that the declared rating of a motor is the output.

very helpful, huh?


----------



## matt267 PE

Phatso86 said:


> like the guy that told me i needed 4 years of EE schools and 4 years working in the field to know that the declared rating of a motor is the output.


Yes, him too. Tell more about him.


----------



## User1

opcorn:


----------



## NJmike PE

Phatso86 said:


> like the guy that told me i needed 4 years of EE schools and 4 years working in the field to know that the declared rating of a motor is the output.
> 
> very helpful, huh?


sounds like a tool


----------



## Ken PE 3.1

Phatso86 said:


> 4 hours ago, matt267 PE said:  I'm also guessing he gave people attitude when they tried to help him.
> 
> 
> 
> like the guy that told me i needed 4 years of EE schools and 4 years working in the field to know that the declared rating of a motor is the output.very helpful, huh?
Click to expand...

Maybe school and experience would have alleviated some of your concerns in the time between the test and results. Ya know, instead of relying on luck?


----------

