# Pedestrian Bridge Collapse - Florida International University



## TheNiloJunior (Mar 15, 2018)

Collapse of pedestrian bridge at FIU. The span had just been placed on Saturday.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/pedestrian-bridge-florida-international-university-collapses/story?id=53774444


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## MetsFan (Mar 15, 2018)

Was just about to post this.  They are already reporting several people killed.  Jesus...


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## TheNiloJunior (Mar 15, 2018)

MetsFan said:


> Was just about to post this.  They are already reporting several people killed.  Jesus...


Yeah it's pretty saddening and I'm wondering if there are any still trapped in their cars. Also wondering what they will find on the resulting investigation. Would any of our bridge folks know if this was a unique type of ABC?


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## Jbone27 PE (Mar 16, 2018)

TheNiloJunior said:


> Yeah it's pretty saddening and I'm wondering if there are any still trapped in their cars. Also wondering what they will find on the resulting investigation. Would any of our bridge folks know if this was a unique type of ABC?


I'm curious about this as well. Very sad for all involved. Hopefully there is enough investigation into this that the information can help ensure it doesn't happen again. There was a flaw somewhere. Materials, methods, or design.


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## Road Guy (Mar 16, 2018)

saw a news story this AM that the contractor was tightening the cables on the bridge just before it collapsed? Have built a lot of different ped bridges over the years but have never seen this style.

It looks like there was a large enough median for a center support on the roadway so they could have easily spanned this with a typical concrete girder bridge instead of whatever type bridge this was that was used?  i.e. "the old fashioned way"


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## PowerStroke79_PE (Mar 16, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> saw a news story this AM that the contractor was tightening the cables on the bridge just before it collapsed? Have built a lot of different ped bridges over the years but have never seen this style.
> 
> It looks like there was a large enough median for a center support on the roadway so they could have easily spanned this with a typical concrete girder bridge instead of whatever type bridge this was that was used?  i.e. "the old fashioned way"


That's agreeable. Innovation comes at a cost and you NEVER want it to be what happened in this case. That's gotta be a 150 ft span or more. Now, there are a lot of assumption from the viewers perspective at this point, but I was reading on Linkedin earlier and some accusations and finger pointing was just primitive and at this point from what I can see I can only ask why there was stressing going on 5 days after installation.

1.Was the concrete really not at Design Strength before hand which would mean they installed the bridge before design strength was reached? Meaning they miscalculated self weight capacity and completely disregarded shoring? 

2.Did they over stress cables to failure as in it being another possible human error whether it was by equipment discrepancy or overlooking the obvious?

 I kept seeing the white truck crushed in the corner which has a sign that starts with "Structural..." and I couldn't make out the rest of it and kept thinking "what a coincidence for this structural engineering firm to be driving by...", but obviously they were there. Quality control on this bridge or its model is gonna play a big role on these forensics I believe. I've only ever worked on post tension and prestress parking garages so the possible "stay cable system" mentioned in other sites I have no experience with and would be very interested to learn it. The 3d walk through render out there of the bridge made it seem like such a great and cool structure. Everything about it is so sad at this point.


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## Surf and Snow (Mar 17, 2018)

Saw this on the news. Very sad. Hopefully forensics will find out what caused it and it can prevent this same error from happening again.


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## youngmotivatedengineer (Mar 17, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> saw a news story this AM that the contractor was tightening the cables on the bridge just before it collapsed? Have built a lot of different ped bridges over the years but have never seen this style.
> 
> It looks like there was a large enough median for a center support on the roadway so they could have easily spanned this with a typical concrete girder bridge instead of whatever type bridge this was that was used?  i.e. "the old fashioned way"


Center support may have been left out to maintan sight distances as well as an architectural feature to maintain the modern look of a bridge from the future.  

Based on picture above, even if there was a center support, there may have still been a collapse but possibly not as bad as the failure seems to have occurred on the left side. If it was simply a failure in the middle of the bridge, i would think both ends would have ended up the way the right side did as opposed to the left side having a full failure while the right side just rotated.


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## Bot-Man (Mar 17, 2018)

Saw a news story that said one of the engineers reported a crack in the bridge 3 days prior to the collapse. The news was scant in details as far as where the crack was located though. No matter what the finger pointing will be fierce.


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## Surf and Snow (Mar 18, 2018)

Bot-Man said:


> Saw a news story that said one of the engineers reported a crack in the bridge 3 days prior to the collapse. The news was scant in details as far as where the crack was located though. No matter what the finger pointing will be fierce.


The released part of that voicemail: https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/17/us/florida-miami-bridge-collapse/index.html


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## Dark Knight (Mar 19, 2018)

So...What happened here? Any theories?


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## MA_PE (Mar 19, 2018)

theories abound I'm sure.  Personally, I think it best to wait for the facts.


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## csb (Mar 22, 2018)

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/HWY18MH009-3-16-press.pdf

Here's a sheet of the bridge plans. The NTSB is pulling this one apart.


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## kevo_55 (Mar 22, 2018)

Dude didn't even put his company's COA# on the drawings...............


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 22, 2018)

kevo_55 said:


> Dude didn't even put his company's COA# on the drawings...............


Explain please...


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## Road Guy (Mar 22, 2018)

so it looks like it did have some type of off set mid support - doesn't look like that part was not in yet - based on any of the photos? defin none of the cable supports - I wonder if this was just a means and methods of constructing issue?


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## Road Guy (Mar 22, 2018)

or is the structure on the left side of the photo above the mid span support? I guess that's the canal off the page?


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## kevo_55 (Mar 22, 2018)

https://fbpe.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/Chapter-471-2017.pdf

Section 471.023(1).

I am not even licensed there but my company does quite a bit of work there.


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## kevo_55 (Mar 22, 2018)

Sorry, it's on the plans. Old man eyes this morning.


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 22, 2018)

COA = ???


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## MA_PE (Mar 22, 2018)

knight1fox3 said:


> COA = ???


Just below the PE stamp in the title block  - Florida Certificate of Authorization number.


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## MA_PE (Mar 22, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> so it looks like it did have some type of off set mid support - doesn't look like that part was not in yet - based on any of the photos? defin none of the cable supports - I wonder if this was just a *means and methods of constructing issue*?


This is my initial inclination. I don't believe that main column and cable supports were just for aesthetics.


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 22, 2018)

MA_PE said:


> Just below the PE stamp in the title block  - Florida Certificate of Authorization number.


Ah ok, thanks. I was thinking authentication. :thumbs:


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## youngmotivatedengineer (Mar 22, 2018)

MA_PE said:


> This is my initial inclination. I don't believe that main column and cable supports were just for aesthetics.


The initial reports said that they were tightening support cables that loosened, when the bridge collapsed.  It's possible that the temporary support cables were in adequate or they were over-tightened and ruptured.


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## Jbone27 PE (Mar 22, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> or is the structure on the left side of the photo above the mid span support? I guess that's the canal off the page?


That's the way I'm seeing it.  Part that collapsed was spanning from station 10+00 to the pylon at 11+75?


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## Road Guy (Mar 22, 2018)

I wonder if the contractor has some type of RFI where they asked the engineer "hey can we install the southern span before installing the cable support structure"?


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## youngmotivatedengineer (Mar 22, 2018)

Here is link to news story that has dash cam footage of the actual collapse.

http://newjersey.news12.com/story/37783534/new-video-shows-pedestrian-bridge-collapse-on-florida-college-campus


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## csb (Mar 22, 2018)

HFS! That was intense! I'm realizing that the capture rate on the camera was set kinda weird, but that sucker just flat hit the ground.


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## TheNiloJunior (Mar 22, 2018)

Jbone27 PE said:


> That's the way I'm seeing it.  Part that collapsed was spanning from station 10+00 to the pylon at 11+75?


Yeah, they only installed the span from 10+00 to 11+75, so that support in the middle of the elevation is what you're seeing on the left of the posted photo.


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## TheNiloJunior (Mar 22, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> I wonder if the contractor has some type of RFI where they asked the engineer "hey can we install the southern span before installing the cable support structure"?


That'd be something. Also, to make their case like any good contractor would do, if it's followed up with the reasoning why installing the span first without any needed supports is a better solution than what was instructed per design.

Not being a bridge guy myself, seeing a sequence of construction plan will really clear up the question to folks on if the span was placed before any needed temporary or permanent supports or if the slab post tensioning was all that was called for to keep the span in place temporarily and the structure was installed per the approved sequence.


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## Road Guy (Mar 23, 2018)

anyone have a link to the full plans?

I've only built normal bridges but those don't normally include any sequencing - covered in standard specs, but I would like to think something like this would have some more detailed phasing, do this before that, etc - since its most likely not covered under FDOT's typical specifications.


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## MA_PE (Mar 23, 2018)

I don't know if the plans are available to the public or posted online.  If for no other reason than traffic (autos and pedestrians) the construction sequence must have been fully defined.  this is definitely not a "typical" bridge that would fall under Standard specifications.


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## Road Guy (Mar 23, 2018)

I agree &amp; that's why Id like to see the plans, its a public project so they should be out there somewhere - 

Usually even for (normal) bridges over the interstates its not very specific, "Contractor shall not place beams while the road is open to traffic" type stuff  But rarely have I seen Step1 - Do this, Step 2 - Do this, etc...

But I imagine for this particular bridge set up there would be more detailed steps / specs to construct..


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## MA_PE (Mar 23, 2018)

Maybe...maybe not.  This was an ABC so there might be lots of contact between the designer and the contractor.  Clearly there was a LOT of coordination in performing the actual placement.  The vehicle(s) used to rotate and lift in place were pretty dang impressive.   The placement was so high profile  that I don't see a lot of room for surprises, all of the necessary personnel had to be aware of what was going on and how it was being done.  The rumor mill (aka the news stories) are claiming last minute changes, blah, blah.

And then there's this guy from Canada



I tend to wait for facts.


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## kevo_55 (Mar 23, 2018)

I think I got dumber by watching that video.


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## goodal (Mar 23, 2018)

"I'm not an engineer but..."


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## Road Guy (Mar 23, 2018)

Anyone notice the construction worker on top of the bridge when it collapsed? I hope that guy was OK, it did not appear that he was tied off


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## BamaStrucPESE (Mar 23, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> anyone have a link to the full plans?
> 
> I've only built normal bridges but those don't normally include any sequencing - covered in standard specs, but I would like to think something like this would have some more detailed phasing, do this before that, etc - since its most likely not covered under FDOT's typical specifications.


https://facilities.fiu.edu/projects/BT_904/MCM_FIGG_Proposal_for_FIU_Pedestrian_Bridge_9-30-2015.pdf


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## Road Guy (Mar 23, 2018)

interesting thanks!

Page 14 seems to indicate the "stay pipes" (cables?) are not required for structural requirements - but are an additional member for "natural frequency requirements"

I didn't realize until this link that this was a design build job - defin makes it more interesting as their shouldn't have been much back and forth over means and methods like in DBB.

that is one excellent looking proposal though - probably there is some less sexy one that provided a bridge that didn't fall down for a few million less that didn't get selected..


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## User1 (Mar 26, 2018)

I'm bummed I won't be able to hook up a hammock between the diagonals.


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## MA_PE (Mar 26, 2018)

Nice link.  These guys all appear qualified for the project.  The proposal shows what a high profile project this was.  It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation.


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## SE_FL (Apr 7, 2018)

BamaStrucPE said:


> https://facilities.fiu.edu/projects/BT_904/MCM_FIGG_Proposal_for_FIU_Pedestrian_Bridge_9-30-2015.pdf


That link has been taken down. Does anyone have pdf they can send me?

-Terry


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## csb (May 23, 2018)

Prelim findings

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HWY18MH009-prelim-.aspx


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## Supe (May 23, 2018)

What a tease.


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## csb (May 24, 2018)

Supe said:


> What a tease.


THERE WERE CRACK PICTURES

heh


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## DrZoidberWoop (Nov 14, 2018)

I can't help but find it grimly humorous that the 2019 ASCE/SEI Structural Congress will have an 11AM session titled "Accelerated Bridge Construction in High Seismic Areas," where both moderators and 2 of 4 presenters are from FIU. It looks like the session has ZERO professional engineers and 5 or 6 PhDs. This speaks volumes to me about the current state of affairs.  Irony I suppose. Here is a link:     

https://www.eventscribe.com/2019/STCONG19/agenda.asp?pfp=FullSchedule


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## Road Guy (Jun 12, 2019)

not sure if this referencing a "final" report. This mentions one  from OSHA, which I assume is just involved due to worker safety and that some agency like NTSB would make the final review?  Or does OSHA handle this because it was under construction?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/fiu-bridge-collapse-engineer-ignored-warning-signs-hours-before/ar-AACLWea?li=BBnb7Kz


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## Supe (Jun 13, 2019)

I suspect the EoR is going to see jail time, and possibly other members of the firm he covered for.  If you read some of the other articles, his phone that was subpoena'd that allegedly had photos and related text messages was damaged after "his wife washed the phone accidentally."  Their legal council has been doctoring meeting minutes to make statements sound wishy-washy, etc.  It does not paint the firm or EoR in a good light.


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## Ky_Su (Jun 17, 2019)

I was never in the a formal design environment so just wondering if there's any significance that the EOR's initials are not in the "designed by" and "checked by" boxes.   Could he be one of those principals that only stamp designs produced by subordinates without thoroughly checking them?  I heard those do exist.


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## User1 (Jul 22, 2019)

conclusions copy pasted from the report: 

TL;DR: EOR is in trouble and main at fault - Peer Reviewer didn't do their full job, Special Inspector should have said something, Contractor should have exercised better judgement.

As a result of the investigation, OES concludes that:

1. FIGG Bridge Engineers(FIGG),the Engineer of Record (EOR)failed to recognize that the bridge was in danger of collapsing when he inspected it hours before the collapse. The concrete truss had developed numerous wide and deep structural cracks jeopardizing the integrity of the bridge. The EOR should have immediately instructed that the bridge be shored at appropriate locations and SW 8th Street be closed. At the time of collapse,the post-tensioning bars were being re-tensioned at the specific instructions of the EOR.

2. The bridge had structural design deficiencies that contributed to the collapse during construction stage III.The cracks on the bridge occurred due to deficient structural design. 

3. The morning of the incident, EOR held a meeting with project participants after evaluating the cracks over the course of the previous two days. At that meeting, the EOR acknowledged that his computations could not replicate the cracks and therefore, he did not know why the cracks were occurring. The Construction Engineer and Inspector(CEI) of the project advised the EOR at this meeting that the cracks were lengthening daily. Despite these admissions and the knowledge that the cracks were growing in size, EOR stated more than once that the cracks did not present any safety concerns. 

4. The magnitude of the cracks warranted that SW 8th Street be immediately closed,and the concrete truss be shored and supported at multiple intermediate locations to reduce the loads in the north diagonal and the node until final evaluations were done and remedial measures implemented. 

5. Networking Engineering Services, Inc. dba Bolton Perez and Associates, Inc.(BPA) was retained by FIU to be the Construction Engineer and Inspector(CEI) of the project. BPA failed to classify the cracks,which were structural in nature,in accordance with the FDOT requirements. BPA, as a CEI, was expected to exercise its own independent professional judgement in accordance with their contract with FIU and Florida Department of Transportation (FDOT)requirements. With intimate knowledge of extensive cracking on the bridge, BPA failed to recognize that the bridge was in danger of collapsing, and did not recommend to FIU, MCM or others to close the street and shore the bridge, regardless of the opinion held by the EOR.

6 .Munilla Construction Management, Inc.(MCM), the design-build contractor, was aware that the cracks were “getting larger” as reported by MCM superintendent and quality control personnel on March 12 and 14, 2018. On March 13, 2018, EOR stated in an email to MCM, among the list of facts, that “since Saturday (March 10, 2018), MCM has been monitoring the cracks and they have not grown in size.” MCM should have immediately informed EOR on March 14, 2018 that this assumption was not valid. Despite this oversight on the part of MCM, the EOR was provided with photographs and measurements of the cracks in the days leading up to the collapse and was specifically informed by BPA during the morning meeting on March 15, 2018 that the cracks were lengthening.

7. MCM, the design-build contractor, deferred to the decision of EOR and failed to exercise its own independent professional judgement, as a constructor of the bridge, to close the traffic on SW 8th Street until the cause of the cracks were conclusively determined by EOR and peer reviewed. MCM had extensive construction experience in concrete structures and had intimate knowledge of the magnitude of cracks which were growing in size daily. MCM’s deference to EOR in light of the conclusion No. 6 above, and failure to exercise their own independent judgment with regard to implementing necessary safety measures were unreasonable.

8. The evaluations of the cracks by the EOR, and his recommendation to re-tension the post-tensioning bars of diagonal 11,were not included in the original design and therefore should have been subject to peer review.

9. The consultant retained by EOR to conduct independent peer review of the EOR’s design, as per FDOT requirements, did not check the structural integrity of the bridge under different construction stages, a violation of the FDOT requirements. The independent check was performed only under the final design stage when all segments of the bridge were constructed and completed.

Note: This page has been amended by deleting the following sentence from the June 2019 report:“EOR failed to provide construction documents to Louis Berger at 30%, 60% and 90% of completion of construction documents, in accordance with the FDOT requirements.”


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## Supe (Jul 22, 2019)

I suspect there are a bevy of FIGG employees who have cashed out their bank accounts and are en route to non-extraditing countries.


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## csb (Jul 22, 2019)

Ky_Su said:


> I was never in the a formal design environment so just wondering if there's any significance that the EOR's initials are not in the "designed by" and "checked by" boxes.   Could he be one of those principals that only stamp designs produced by subordinates without thoroughly checking them?  I heard those do exist.


It's very common for very large groups.


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 23, 2019)

Supe said:


> I suspect there are a bevy of FIGG employees who have cashed out their bank accounts and are en route to non-extraditing countries.


I'm not sure that there are *that* many people with criminal charges on the way. I could see the EOR could see some involuntary manslaughter, obstructions, and maybe conspiracy charges, not sure about others at the firm?


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## Road Guy (Jul 23, 2019)

&amp; all could have been avoided with a standard ugly Bulb T pedestrian bridge - but that wouldn't have been "stylish"  although it sure as shit would have been cheaper and not killed anyone..

But are there really that many cases of engineers going to jail over  a flaw?  There is a difference in an intentional error and a "mistake". There is going to be enough blame to go around between the Owner (The College), FDOT, Contractor, Engineer, to bore the hell out of a jury.  But on the Design Builds I have been on the engineer is very much aware of everything going on with issues like cracking and settlement.  The contractor (in a DB environment) will usually keep the owner in the dark for as long as possible if there are issue though.


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## Supe (Jul 23, 2019)

If it was just the design flaw, no.  They will be going after criminal negligence.


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## Road Guy (Jul 24, 2019)

A CDOT old timer was telling me about a bridge beam which failed across the interstate years ago and killed several motorists. The beams cracked days after setting and eventually failed- the CDOT Resident Engineer lost his license for 2 years. But the real culprit was the beam manufacturer- but the owner screwed up by not acting fast enough-


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## Dean Agnostic (Aug 4, 2019)

Supe said:


> I suspect the EoR is going to see jail time, and possibly other members of the firm he covered for.  If you read some of the other articles, his phone that was subpoena'd that allegedly had photos and related text messages was damaged after "his wife washed the phone accidentally."  Their legal council has been doctoring meeting minutes to make statements sound wishy-washy, etc.  It does not paint the firm or EoR in a good light.


What if the EOR has never been convicted of a felony and has never been indicted by a grand Jury, or has no criminal record, do you think there’s still jail time??? This is scary.


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## Dean Agnostic (Aug 4, 2019)

Does anyone know if there are criminal charges filed? If so, please send me the link of the article. This is scary .


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## User1 (Aug 4, 2019)

IDK does criminal negligence cause jail time?


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## kevo_55 (Aug 4, 2019)

^^ No. That is tort law.


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## mudpuppy (Aug 5, 2019)

tj_PE said:


> IDK does criminal negligence cause jail time?


By definition most criminal action could involve jail time (excluding civil infractions like parking or speeding tickets).  It's up to the prosecutor to determine charges, but it's possible they could bring up something like negligent homicide or reckless endangerment if they feel they can prove it.  If convicted they could end up in jail, paying a fine (to the government), probation, community service, losing a license, etc.  But a negligent homicide conviction would likely include some jail time.  Conviction under criminal law requires a burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

Separately, as Kevo mentioned, the victims can bring a civil action under tort law.  In this case the victims would likely be looking for monetary damages from the engineers/contractors, etc.  There is no risk of imprisonment, so the burden of proof is much lower (a preponderance of evidence) so these cases are easier for the plaintiff to win.

On a side note, often people go through both criminal and civil action for a crime.  In those cases you'll sometimes see people plead "no contest" to the criminal charge in order to enter a plea bargain without admitting guilt, because if they admit guilt in the criminal case they'll almost automatically also lose civil case as well.

In this particular case I read that the victims already settled with the construction company (which is bankrupt) for $42 million.  No word on criminal charges, but Dean Agnostic, this story seems to indicate manslaughter or negligent homicide charges are unlikely:  https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/miami-dade/article205607154.html


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## Road Guy (Aug 5, 2019)

in my opinion unless they design was intentionally flawed to produce injuries and fatalities then its not a criminal case


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## wilheldp_PE (Aug 5, 2019)

Road Guy said:


> in my opinion unless they design was intentionally flawed to produce injuries and fata then its not a criminal case


I think the "negligent" part indicates they might not have known, but they *should have* known.


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## kevo_55 (Oct 22, 2019)

:bump:

It apparently was a design (&amp; peer reviewer) error.

https://patch.com/florida/miami/fiu-will-build-another-pedestrian-bridge-ntsb-blames-design


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## Supe (Oct 23, 2019)

The abstract in that article is pretty good.


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## csb (Oct 23, 2019)

Here's the NTSB link: https://www.ntsb.gov/news/press-releases/Pages/NR20191022.aspx


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 23, 2019)

tj_PE said:


> ...
> 
> 9. The consultant retained by EOR to conduct independent peer review of the EOR’s design, as *per FDOT requirements, did not check the structural integrity of the bridge under different construction stages*, a violation of the FDOT requirements. The independent check was performed only under the final design stage when all segments of the bridge were constructed and completed.
> 
> ...


I am interested in knowing more about this. Is this the responsibility of the EOR? of the construction company? Does it depend on who determines the construction steps, engineer vs builder?


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## Road Guy (Nov 5, 2019)

Wow so if they didn't do the independent check until it was construction then it seems there was some mis-steps on the owners side as well, on every design build project I have been on the independent calcs are submitted with Pre RFC submission?


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## MA_PE (Nov 5, 2019)

Means and methods are often left to the contractor.  However, withe these new “efficient” designs it seems prudent to check the stability at various construction stages.  Sometimes construction loads are the controlling design loads.


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## Road Guy (Sep 28, 2020)

typical misleading headline (WSP acquired one of the firms involved in the design)

https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/wsp-faces-fiu-bridge-collapse-lawsuit-despite-not-being-involved-in-project-28-09-2020/?tkn=1

^- Some good figures in the article though.

I still say these type of "cutesy" ped bridges shouldnt be designed, or built at all, especially when using tax payer money, build the standard ugly ped bridge with some Bulb-T beams and standard bents this doesnt happen..  If private money wants to make the bridge "look cool" then fine, bill them for the upgrades (&amp; the risk)


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## leggo PE (Dec 6, 2021)

I just watched a presentation about this collapse and it’s still, obviously, such a tragedy. So many missteps at critical points in design and construction. I’ve actually gotta sit down and read the NTSB report. I think there’s an OSHA report too.


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## BamaStrucPESE (Dec 7, 2021)

Houston will have to demo a portion of one of the major highways due to structural "Significant flaws". Guess who the engineering firm was...

'Significant' flaws in Beltway 8 bridge under construction will cost Harris County millions


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Dec 21, 2021)

Road Guy said:


> typical misleading headline (WSP acquired one of the firms involved in the design)
> 
> WSP faces FIU bridge collapse lawsuit despite not being involved in project | New Civil Engineer
> 
> ...


Those are excellent figures


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## Reverse Polish (Dec 22, 2021)

leggo PE said:


> I just watched a presentation about this collapse and it’s still, obviously, such a tragedy. So many missteps at critical points in design and construction. I’ve actually gotta sit down and read the NTSB report. I think there’s an OSHA report too.



Such an awful and preventable tragedy. The seeds were sown, however, when some genius at FDOT decided that every main road in the state needed to be a high-speed 8-lane divided highway.


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## steel (Dec 22, 2021)

Reverse Polish said:


> Such an awful and preventable tragedy. The seeds were sown, however, when some genius at FDOT decided that every main road in the state needed to be a high-speed 8-lane divided highway.


The width of the roadway ha absolutely nothing to do with what happened. Longer bridges in history have survived, and shorter ones have collapsed.

I'm not a transportation engineer, but I'd wager that the width of most roadways in Florida wasn't decided based on chance.


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## Reverse Polish (Dec 23, 2021)

structurenole15 said:


> The width of the roadway ha absolutely nothing to do with what happened. Longer bridges in history have survived, and shorter ones have collapsed.
> 
> I'm not a transportation engineer, but I'd wager that the width of most roadways in Florida wasn't decided based on chance.



Oh, it most definitely does. If you have streets that are pedestrian-friendly and crossable on foot, and roadway geometries that aren't divided highways with speed limits of 45 mph, you have no need for pedestrian bridges.

I'm not a transportation guy, but I know that as engineers, our job is to find cost-effective and safe solutions for all stakeholders...not to build gold-plated infrastructure that only meets the needs of cars. The 1950s are over. We're smarter than this.


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## steel (Dec 23, 2021)

Reverse Polish said:


> Oh, it most definitely does. If you have streets that are pedestrian-friendly and crossable on foot, and roadway geometries that aren't divided highways with speed limits of 45 mph, you have no need for pedestrian bridges.
> 
> I'm not a transportation guy, but I know that as engineers, our job is to find cost-effective and safe solutions for all stakeholders...not to build gold-plated infrastructure that only meets the needs of cars. The 1950s are over. We're smarter than this.


I'm not refuting that the bridge should have been necessary. Though neither of us truly know what decisions led to the design of that particular roadway. 

I'm saying that the span of the bridge was not the cause of the collapse. Like I said, history has seen longer spans survive and shorter spans collapse. Do some research on what caused the collapse. The span distance was not the cause. That's a fact.


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## Reverse Polish (Dec 23, 2021)

structurenole15 said:


> I'm not refuting that the bridge should have been necessary. Though neither of us truly know what decisions led to the design of that particular roadway.
> 
> I'm saying that the span of the bridge was not the cause of the collapse. Like I said, history has seen longer spans survive and shorter spans collapse. Do some research on what caused the collapse. The span distance was not the cause. That's a fact.



You may want to watch your condescension.

The point I'm making is that, if you have a "regular" four-lane main street, with "regular" speed limits and traffic controls, such that pedestrians aren't regularly fearing for their lives trying to cross that road... then there is no bridge necessary at all, and hence, no collapse. The problem is that the roadway--the ecosystem in which the bridge existed--was completely overengineered in the first place. It was "fixed" with another completely overengineered (and expensive) solution. You don't see pedestrian bridges all over Manhattan, do you?

As practicing engineers, our problems exist in real-world contexts, and we must extend beyond isolated technical bubbles. I'm looking at root factors of how we got to the point of this problem even existing, which one can argue is far more important than being able to identify a shear crack. Perhaps in this case, the proper (and safer, less expensive) engineering solution was narrowing of the roadway and lowering of speed limits.


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## steel (Dec 23, 2021)

Reverse Polish said:


> You may want to watch your condescension.


Dude, now you're just getting offended over an intellectual discussion about a bridge collapse.

All I said was that the span length of the bridge did not cause the collapse. We can talk about the needs for bridges and highways all day, but that's not a part of this topic. But I consider this discussion over because you really don't want to hear anything except from your own mouth.

So yeah, I'll be condescending right now: just because you say one right thing doesn't make everyone else wrong. I literally acknowledged you're correct, but you're harping on me being wrong. *Ignore button pressed*


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## Reverse Polish (Dec 23, 2021)

structurenole15 said:


> Dude, now you're just getting offended over an intellectual discussion about a bridge collapse.



No, I was offended when you wrote, "Do some research" and proceeded to put words in my mouth. As if you're the only structural engineer who has read anything about what has become a very publicized incident. Know your audience. Some of us have been around longer than you.


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## Spitfire6532 (Dec 23, 2021)

structurenole15 said:


> Dude, now you're just getting offended over an intellectual discussion about a bridge collapse.


Only person here getting offended here is you, no need to continue to escalate this. @Reverse Polish made a valid comment about wide roads with high speeds that aren't pedestrian friendly and you somehow turned that into an argument about how it wasn't the span that caused the failure. They never disagreed with you.


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## steel (Dec 23, 2021)

Spitfire6532 said:


> Only person here getting offended here is you, no need to continue to escalate this. @Reverse Polish made a valid comment about wide roads with high speeds that aren't pedestrian friendly and you somehow turned that into an argument about how it wasn't the span that caused the failure. They never disagreed with you.


And yet, you're the one jumping into a conversation that has been over lol.

I never disagreed with them, either. I literally acknowledged, several times, how right they were. 

But just cause person A is correct doesn't make person B in correct.

This is just a conversation lol. But it's literally okay!

My suggestion would be that we all go have a very pleasant holiday season  I seriously wish you nothing but the best in the new year. 2021 has challenged us all but we can only come into 2022 stronger than ever! Hope you have a pleasant Christmas and new Years


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## MadamPirate PE (Dec 23, 2021)

structurenole15 said:


> And yet, you're the one jumping into a conversation that has been over lol.
> 
> I never disagreed with them, either. I literally acknowledged, several times, how right they were.
> 
> ...


Bruh.

This isn't the first time you've gotten your panties in a bunch when someone has called you out on your behavior.

We are all professionals here. Please act like it. Would you really treat your colleagues the way you've been recently treating people here on EB? Because if you do, I'm super glad I don't work with you.


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 23, 2021)




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## kevo_55 (Dec 24, 2021)

What did I miss??


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## DLD PE (Dec 24, 2021)

Merry Christmas!


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## txjennah PE (Dec 24, 2021)

SIMPLY


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## MadamPirate PE (Dec 24, 2021)

txjennah PE said:


> SIMPLY


HAVING


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## leggo PE (Dec 24, 2021)

MadamPirate PE said:


> HAVING


A WONDERFUL


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## JayKay PE (Dec 24, 2021)

leggo PE said:


> A WONDERFUL


CHRISTMAS TIME!!!!!!


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## JayKay PE (Dec 24, 2021)




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## steel (Dec 27, 2021)

MadamPirate PE said:


> Bruh.
> 
> This isn't the first time you've gotten your panties in a bunch when someone has called you out on your behavior.
> 
> We are all professionals here. Please act like it. Would you really treat your colleagues the way you've been recently treating people here on EB? Because if you do, I'm super glad I don't work with you.


Ummmm, this has been over for quite some time. Can you please refrain from contacting me? 

Thank you, and I hope you have a blessed new year!


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## MadamPirate PE (Dec 27, 2021)

steelnole15 said:


> Ummmm, this has been over for quite some time. Can you please refrain from contacting me?
> 
> Thank you, and I hope you have a blessed new year!


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