# PMP Certification



## lev280 (Jun 21, 2007)

Anyone here with the PMP certification? If so, please post here any tips/help regarding preparation for the PMP exam. Thanks.


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jun 21, 2007)

Lev280:

I took and passed the PMP Certification exam in March 2005. I studied for 6-8 weekends mostly from a text by Rita somebody. I also took sample tests. The material is not tough, just make sure you understand their terminology. I was practicing a lot of things they mention, but they just call it something else, and that is an important factor in the preparation. The exam itself was sorta tricky. I would say I had to make an educated guess on about 10-15% of the questions. I guess they were correct, because I got a 180 out of 200. Good luck!



lev280 said:


> Anyone here with the PMP certification? If so, please post here any tips/help regarding preparation for the PMP exam. Thanks.


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## lev280 (Jun 21, 2007)

Thanks.

Is that the only text you used?

Did you take the computer based or paper based exam?

Is the PMP exam easier or harder than the PE exam?



VA_Env_Engr said:


> Lev280:
> I took and passed the PMP Certification exam in March 2005. I studied for 6-8 weekends mostly from a text by Rita somebody. I also took sample tests. The material is not tough, just make sure you understand their terminology. I was practicing a lot of things they mention, but they just call it something else, and that is an important factor in the preparation. The exam itself was sorta tricky. I would say I had to make an educated guess on about 10-15% of the questions. I guess they were correct, because I got a 180 out of 200. Good luck!


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jun 21, 2007)

I am pretty sure its administered as the computer based version. Its 4 hours long and you have 200 questions. I think you pass if you get 138 correct. As for the text, this text is pretty exhaustive. In addition, make sure you know the PMBOK definitions etc. I bought another text book (can't remember the name), but found it to be too simplistic. I feared that I would not be adequately prepared and then bought the Rita text book. As for comparison with PE, there is none. PE is tougher because it covers a very wide range. PMP is mostly management principles and best practices. I am not trying to say that PMP is easy, but relatively speaking I found PMP easiER.


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## lev280 (Jun 21, 2007)

I think I found the book..

*PM Crash Course™, Premier Edition by Rita Mulcahy*

Is it this one?


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jun 21, 2007)

lev280 said:


> I think I found the book..*PM Crash Course™, Premier Edition by Rita Mulcahy*
> 
> Is it this one?


I can't remember the title exactly, but you got the author right.


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## bigray76 (May 22, 2008)

Any feedback as to how much weight this designation carries?


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## SSmith (May 22, 2008)

bigray76 said:


> Any feedback as to how much weight this designation carries?


First of all, how did the designation PMP ever get past marketing? Seriously?

Secondly, I give very little weight to those who carry the PMP tag. In my field, Most of the people wearing it have limited work experience, took a 40 hour course, and passed a 4 hour exam. Obviously YMMV.

If I am going to put 3 letters after my name, it will not be PMP.


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## Casey (May 22, 2008)

SSmith said:


> If I am going to put 3 letters after my name, it will not be PMP.


Yeah, you don't need PMP when you already have PIMP.


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## IlPadrino (May 22, 2008)

What about the (see Program Management Professional (PgMP))? It's more expensive but I wonder if it's worth it.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 22, 2008)

I got Level I Certification in Program Management from the DoD when that was all the rage in the mid-nineties. I heard it is making a comeback. That true?


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## IlPadrino (May 22, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I got Level I Certification in Program Management from the DoD when that was all the rage in the mid-nineties. I heard it is making a comeback. That true?


I think the Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics (ATL) field, in general, has always been driving career field certification. Defense Acquisition Workforce Improvement Act (DAWIA) certification requirements do seem to have an increased focus and you can't be a member of the Defense Acquisition Corps without a Level II certification in some field (though it doesn't matter which one).

I don't know many Program Manager types (I'm a Contracting guy)... but that's probably because I don't have a lot to do with NAVAIR or NAVSEA.


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## Casey (May 22, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I got Level I Certification in Program Management from the DoD when that was all the rage in the mid-nineties. I heard it is making a comeback. That true?



I thought Six Sigma was bee's knees these days....


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## Capt Worley PE (May 22, 2008)

Well, I was surpirsed when I heard the Certifications were back in vogue. Here's my collection:

Level III Certification in Systems Planning, Research, Development, and Engineering

Level I Certification in Test and Evaluation

Level I Certification in Program Management

I don't think they really do much more than pad a resume.


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## IlPadrino (May 22, 2008)

Casey said:


> I thought Six Sigma was bee's knees these days....


Not Six Sigma... LEAN Six Sigma!!! I don't buy most of it! Maybe I should start wearing a green belt with my uniform...


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## IlPadrino (May 22, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Well, I was surpirsed when I heard the Certifications were back in vogue. Here's my collection:
> Level III Certification in Systems Planning, Research, Development, and Engineering
> 
> Level I Certification in Test and Evaluation
> ...


But they do sound nifty... that's important.


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## SSmith (May 22, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Well, I was surpirsed when I heard the Certifications were back in vogue. Here's my collection:
> Level III Certification in Systems Planning, Research, Development, and Engineering
> 
> Level I Certification in Test and Evaluation
> ...


In my new job I will have to be level 3 certified in Systems Planning, Research, Development, and Engineering within 2 years of starting. The only role it really has is to exclude others from those positions. It takes a waiver from very senior types (GO/SES types) that rarely happen.


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## IlPadrino (May 23, 2008)

SSmith said:


> In my new job I will have to be level 3 certified in Systems Planning, Research, Development, and Engineering within 2 years of starting. The only role it really has is to exclude others from those positions. It takes a waiver from very senior types (GO/SES types) that rarely happen.


Yeah... not much to do that really adds to a "body of knowledge":

Level I

- None

Level II

- EDUCATION

+ Baccalaureate degree in engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, or a related field

- EXPERIENCE

+ 2 years of acquisition-related experience in science and technology

- TRAINING

+ ACQ 101 Fundamentals of Systems Acquisition Management [bU5]

+ STM 201 Intermediate S&amp;T Management [JHZ]

Level III

- EDUCATION

+ Baccalaureate degree in engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, or a related field

+ (Desired) Master’s degree in engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, mathematics, operations research, management, or a related field

- EXPERIENCE

+ 2 years of acquisition-related experience in science and technology

- TRAINING

+ STM 302 Advanced S&amp;T Management [PGR]

How are those courses? Have you done any yet?


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## SSmith (May 23, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> How are those courses? Have you done any yet?


I did ACQ101 online through DAU. It wasnt too challenging, but that is the stuff that I deal with everyday. So YMMV. I cant speak for the rest of the courses yet though...


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## squishles10 (Jun 28, 2008)

In my interview today with the DoD this came up. EVERYBODY had that designation on their door. Kinda funny, everybody had EVERY designation on their door. I need some more alphabet soup to fit in at that place!

I was roaming over here to see what the heck it was. I'm a little curious as to what constitutes project management experience. I thought it was pretty heavily involved stuff, but from above it looks far less so. I've done land development projects for nearly 5 years now- does that count or no?

Thanks!


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## IlPadrino (Jun 28, 2008)

HWY PE said:


> My job is sending me to the first course for this next month, 14-16 July. My boss is at the "Associates" level, and she gave me a brochure to read through for an understanding of hor it all works. From what I gather, you take 3 courses and pass the exam for each one and that gives you the "Associate" status. Then you take four more classes and pass the exams for each of those and that qualifies you for "Masters" status. Then you take a 3 hour cumulative exam and if you pass that, you can use the PMP designation. Anyway, I'm starting down that path in a couple weeks, so we'll see how it goes.


I didn't think PMP required anything but the requisite education, experience, and exam:



> Program Management Professional (PgMP)SMPMI's Program Management Professional (PgMP) credentialing service offers PMI's first credential designed to demonstrate project and program management skills. To be eligible for the PgMP credential, you must meet specific guidelines that objectively measure experience, education and professional knowledge, and undergo a rigorous application process as well as three assessments. You also must agree to adhere to the PMI Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct. The CAPM or PMP credential are not prerequisites for the PgMP credential.
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Certified Associate in Project Management (CAPM®) Credential is even easier...

Or are you talking about something else?


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## IlPadrino (Jun 29, 2008)

HWY PE said:


> Well, I am not sure why we're taking the course, but the application for this thing looks like a bear.
> Okay, the PgMP certification is for Program Managers (definately diffrerent than the Project Managers certificate). The PMP cert more rigorous as I understand it.
> 
> Regardless, my boss is sending me to three days of training that will lead to more letters behind my name (eventually) for free, so whatever, I'm on board. If they weren't paying, I wouldn't give a shit. However, I do think that a well written application with documented work experience managing projects is sufficient for being allowed to sit for the four hour exam. I am not sure why all of us at my work are going through these courses?!?


The Program Management Professional (PgMP)SM Credential looked interesting to me, but the fee is CRAZY is you're paying for it yourself (I think is was something like $1500).


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## GT ME (Jun 29, 2008)

As a person with 1st tier Engineering &amp; MBA degrees, the PMP is a joke.

First of all, the PMP doesn't have educational requirements, so any donkey qualifies to get one. Need I say more?

I find it ironic that government identities hold respect for the PMP designation -- fiqures -- it gives donkeys an out to get into the GS14 &amp; 15 level with no justification.

In the private sector, the MBA is superior -- in not only shows intelligence but also experience.


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## IlPadrino (Jun 29, 2008)

GT ME said:


> As a person with 1st tier Engineering &amp; MBA degrees, the PMP is a joke.
> First of all, the PMP doesn't have educational requirements, so any donkey qualifies to get one. Need I say more?
> 
> I find it ironic that government identities hold respect for the PMP designation -- fiqures -- it gives donkeys an out to get into the GS14 &amp; 15 level with no justification.
> ...


GT,

At first I thought you were trying to patronize YKW... but then I reread it and think you're sincere.

I don't know much about the PMI or their certifications beyond what I've read on the internet. Nor do I know which (if any!) government entities give much credibility in the certification - I'd say the DoD gives none.

BUT... I also don't think it's fair to compare an education (MBA) to actual, real-life project or program management. And I'd point out the PMP *does* have an education requirement in the sense that a degree removes some of the experience. Is that any different than the PE where some States allow non-accredited or degreed persons through?

MBAs are great and all, but they don't always translate to real-world use. I've met many bean counters that couldn't manage a Cub Scout Den.


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## GT ME (Jun 29, 2008)

I was probably a little harsh -- my darn background makes me like that.

Unlike the PMP, you must have an accredited engineering degree in your chosen PE profession (not long ago, you didn't have to have an engineering degree to obtain a PE).

As a business owner since 1987, I can tell you an MBA doesn't translate to real-world experience (I graduated with an MBA in 2005, and I graduated with a BSME in 2000). But neither does a PMP.

I had a spirited conversation with a retired military person with a GS 15 and that person educated me on the levels and payment of government employees -- I deduced that you could have a GS 15 without a high school education with a PMP (the person said the top salary was 141k for a GS 15).

My point is the PMP deminshes my MBA education(not in the private sector) in government -- that ain't right.



IlPadrino said:


> GT,
> At first I thought you were trying to patronize YKW... but then I reread it and think you're sincere.
> 
> I don't know much about the PMI or their certifications beyond what I've read on the internet. Nor do I know which (if any!) government entities give much credibility in the certification - I'd say the DoD gives none.
> ...


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## IlPadrino (Jun 30, 2008)

GT ME said:


> Unlike the PMP, you must have an accredited engineering degree in your chosen PE profession (not long ago, you didn't have to have an engineering degree to obtain a PE).


I don't think that's true. I believe some state boards allow you to obtain licensure without a degree (much less accredited) so long as you have sufficient experience.


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## IlPadrino (Jun 30, 2008)

GT ME said:


> I had a spirited conversation with a retired military person with a GS 15 and that person educated me on the levels and payment of government employees -- I deduced that you could have a GS 15 without a high school education with a PMP (the person said the top salary was 141k for a GS 15).


I know many GS-15s that don't have a college degree. But it certainly took them lots of time! As I wrote before, I don't know of *any* DoD position that gives credibility to the PMP - much less let you substitute education requirements with the PMP certification. If there's a government organization that does, I agree with you wholeheartedly!


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## SSmith (Jun 30, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> I know many GS-15s that don't have a college degree. But it certainly took them lots of time!


In all fairness though, a GS15 in DC is like a GS7 everywhere else. So I dont find this hard to believe at all. Everywhere else, this would be nearly impossible. A GS15 is on par with an O6. All O6s have college degrees. (Maybe its somehow possible for Green to Gold soldiers to become officers without a degree?) It would then follow the same requirement on GS15s.


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## IlPadrino (Jun 30, 2008)

SSmith said:


> In all fairness though, a GS15 in DC is like a GS7 everywhere else. So I dont find this hard to believe at all. Everywhere else, this would be nearly impossible. A GS15 is on par with an O6. All O6s have college degrees. (Maybe its somehow possible for Green to Gold soldiers to become officers without a degree?) It would then follow the same requirement on GS15s.


While there are certainly a lot of GS-15s in DC, their position descriptions get classified like every other one, right?

You can't really compare GSs to military paygrades... while there's a Geneva Convention equivalency and protocol/housing/etc guidelines, they don't translate to responsibility. How many GS15s work directly for Flag/General Officers? Very few! And the equivalencies really break down at lower paygrades. I know of Ensigns that had GS-13s working for them.

Bottom line for me: guidelines are great, but I see nothing wrong with exceptions made on overall merit (which usually means considerable exceptional experience).


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## IlPadrino (Jul 1, 2008)

HWY PE said:


> So, I went to work and read the little brochure for this course I'm taking a couple weeks from now. Okay, so get this, the particular state agency that I work for basically got sold a line of crap on this. This is a "partnership" between ESI, PMI, and my agency. Each one of these classes costs a few hundred bucks and if you complete all 7 of them, then basically you get to sit for the PMP exam (which I could do now without any of the classes). Basically, my state agency and PMI and ESI have some sort of contract where they pay for so many seats in these classes. So, bottom line is my agency got ripped off, in my personal opinion. But who knows, I could be very wrong. I'll tell you how the classes went.


Maybe you can work out a deal where you get the time off from work instead of going to the classes... give you some time to study for the exam!

I imagine there's a lot of this in government - where the person making the "deals" has no clue what he's really buying, but it sounds good.


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## GT ME (Jul 4, 2008)

Wow -- I hope that ain't true -- I thought that went out years ago -- I quess some states still live both in the dark ages and in ignorance.



IlPadrino said:


> I don't think that's true. I believe some state boards allow you to obtain licensure without a degree (much less accredited) so long as you have sufficient experience.


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## GT ME (Jul 4, 2008)

Wish I would've asked that gentleman which department he worked for that gives more credibility to the PMP over MBA.

hooray for the DOD



IlPadrino said:


> I know many GS-15s that don't have a college degree. But it certainly took them lots of time! As I wrote before, I don't know of *any* DoD position that gives credibility to the PMP - much less let you substitute education requirements with the PMP certification. If there's a government organization that does, I agree with you wholeheartedly!


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## Bman (Jul 4, 2008)

I am actually getting my MS degree in Project Management from BU right now, basically a version of an MBA with 4 core classes centered around project management. We reviewed the PMBOK pretty extensively as well as talked about PMP certification, so here's my two cents. PMP seems to be big with IT people, but doesn't seem to be too big outside of that particular field. I did not fully agree with their approach to project management (a project is a unique, one time endeavor so here's a textbook approach to deal with it- seems kinda contradictory to me) and it didn't quite seem like a lot of the professors did either, even though they were PMP certified; this also rings true with people I know that have the designation. Most of the professors would teach you the book way, the PMP way, and their way (made things a bit confusing at times...). I know in my field which is consulting engineering (building construction), no one would pay much attention to the PMP accreditation even if they knew what it was. There are also CU credits required, so there is some additional work to keep up the accreditation. Personally, I will be taking the PE next year and don't want to get bogged down with too many CU's.... I have also heard rumors that LEED may require CU's eventually and I plan on taking the LEED test before it goes to V3.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 6, 2008)

I'll add my 2-sense here based upon my DoD, Aerospace, and management consultant experience.

PMP has 2 meanings: Program Management Professional vice Project Management Professional.

As those familiar with DoD and the Federal govt have stated, PMP was in vogue in the past and has now made a comeback. For this sector, this is Program Management (as anything with DoD and the Feds, this is very large-scale). The Lockheeds, TRWs (now part of Northrop Grumman), Hughes (now part of Boeing), Boeing, etc., are referring to Program Management when discussing PMP. For example, an IMINT (imaging intelligence) or SIGINT (signals intelligence) satellite system normally consists of a constellation of several satellites and includes space- and ground- (sometimes airborne) assets. Almost always, there will be a "family" of programs that constitute several different versions that evolve over time and incorporate design changes to a baseline design. The Program Management Professional oversees all of these programs within a family. Unlike Project Management, Program Management also entails the Operational and Maintenance part of a birth-death life cycle. Yes, the Program Manager has to deal with operational issues (like when the telemetry has failed). She/He has to get an engineering team to resolve the matter and then incorporate the changes into other satellites in the same family that have not yet been launched and ensure the fixes/upgrades/improvements gets incorporated in the next family of the series.

On the IT side, and for that matter S/W Engineering in DoD and the Feds, PMP when mentioned, refers to Project Management Professional. Most commercial/financial sector/banking sector, IT and management consultancies are actually addressing Project Management not Program Management. The best engineering analogy is on the Civil Engineering side. Although a number of bridges may be designed and built by a a single engineering firm, there usually is a separate engineering team and management for each bridge project. A Project Manager does not have to deal with operational and maintenance issues since by PMI definition, a project is a one-time task. Contrast this with the satellite system example above.

Those of you with MBAs are correct; the PMP certification counts more than an MBA in many industries. This is ludicrous IMHO since the better MBA programs usually require at least one course or two in Project Management as part of the MBA curriculum. As for the experience requirement, almost all MBA programs of repute now require at least 2-3 years of working experience before accepting MBA applicants. It is very difficult to be a contributing member on a Case Study if you have no working background.

Besides my preparation for the PE in Electrical discipline, I am utilizing my ACM membership to take their online courses that prepares a person for the PMP certification exam. Yes, it is a CB (computer-based) exam. The nice part is that the ACM online courses are offered by SkillSoft (the same folks that are certified by PMI and prepares their courses). The online course mimics the CB exam --- they have actual simulations (get to click on a telephone and email icon in their simulations) that mimic an actual office environment. What is lacking is the actual day-to-day nuances (body language, political and cultural organizational stuff that occurs in a real-world environment).

Yes, like some of the other board members, I don't agree with their definitions, much less responses 100%, but HEY! that's the responses that help one pass and get another alphabet soup designation.

Unlike a PE license or Law license or Medical license or Dental license (u get the picture), one does not really need a college degree to "sit" for the PMP exam. What is supposedly required is work experience (a set number of hours doing actual project management). Now it is easy to see the Catch-22 here.

My "take" on this is if you are a good test-taker and memory-recall person, the PMP is a cinch. (FYI: I am not a good test taker though I am strong on memory recall. Since I am not a good test-taker I am so ecstatic that I passed the FE Exam on the 1st try after being out of school for 26 years.)

Unlike the PE license, one doesn't have to work a minimum number of years under a licensed PE or in this case, a minimum number of years UNDER A PERSON WHO HAS a PMP certification.

Thus, while a PE license discriminates against those who have worked in industry-exempt areas throughout their career, the PMP certification does not (all it requires is that one has done project management regardless of size or difficulty).


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## IlPadrino (Jul 6, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> I'll add my 2-sense here based upon my DoD, Aerospace, and management consultant experience.
> PMP has 2 meanings: Program Management Professional vice Project Management Professional.


Interesting post... thanks for sharing. Two questions: 1) Do you have a link for the "Program Management Professional" you mentioned? 2) Can you edit your post to specify which PMP you talk about when you use it?


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## benbo (Jul 6, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Interesting post... thanks for sharing. Two questions: 1) Do you have a link for the "Program Management Professional" you mentioned? 2) Can you edit your post to specify which PMP you talk about when you use it?


I thought they referred to one as a PgMP and the other as a PMP. Not that I know anything about it - I looked it up on Google after I saw this topic.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 6, 2008)

benbo said:


> I thought they referred to one as a PgMP and the other as a PMP. Not that I know anything about it - I looked it up on Google after I saw this topic.


There is definately the PgMP, but it's a new program (like something less than a year old) so I can imagine KA would have been talking about it like he had seen it anywhere. He must be talking about something else.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 7, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> There is definately the PgMP, but it's a new program (like something less than a year old) so I can imagine KA would have been talking about it like he had seen it anywhere. He must be talking about something else.


PgMP is a relatively new program. For those who've been around a long time (I'm dating myself here), defense/aerospace companies such as Lockheed, TRW, Boeing, Rockwell, Hughes, Martin Marietta, etc., had Program Management courses (took them through about a year out of college because my company required it) formerly offered through the auspices of the Defense Systems Management College. At that time, there was no such thing as Project Management, only Program Management and the acronym PM meant Program Manager in the DoD/Aerospace sector.

"What goes round comes around" is true. The latest for DoD is "Systems of Systems Engineering". As stated at the IEEE Systems Engineering Council in 2007, "... one could define the Universe as the system". As engineers we realize that systems must be bounded.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 7, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Interesting post... thanks for sharing. Two questions: 1) Do you have a link for the "Program Management Professional" you mentioned? 2) Can you edit your post to specify which PMP you talk about when you use it?


OK, I'm still a "newbie" to engineerboards.com, but here is an excerpt from the April 2008 PM World Today. I did attempt to upload the PDF file for those at engineerboards.com that want more information. (Seems to be taking an inordinate amount of time for a file of only 106 KB in size to upload). If the file doesn't upload successfully, those who are interested can obtain the PDF file from the following link:

www.pmforum.org/library/second-edition/2008/PDFs/Ward-4-08.pdf

The Project Management Institute (www.pmi.org) is the organization that offers Program Management Professional (PgMP) certification (as of October 2007) so this is pretty recent, and the Project Management Professional (PMP) certification.

DoD Instruction 4150.07, May 29, 2008, actually defines PMP as Pest Management Professional. Thus, one must be aware of the client and sector one is interacting with in order to correctly "be on the same page" with respect to acronyms and their meanings.

PM WORLD TODAY – SECOND EDITIONS – APRIL 2008

Navigating the New PgMP

SM

Credential

By J. LeRoy Ward, PMP, PgMP

In October 2007, the Project Management Institute (PMI®) began offering its first

credential that demonstrates skills in the emerging discipline of program

management, the Program Management Professional (PgMP

SM

). I say emerging

because, while program management has long been an accepted profession and

practice within the U.S. government, particularly the Department of Defense, it has

just recently gained more interest and acceptance in commercial applications

around the world.

Program management deals with the many complex interdependencies between

component projects and helps ensure that projects align with an organization’s

overall strategy. In other words, program management is really about delivering

business results and benefits. The PgMP

SM

recognizes that a program manager,

while needing skills in project management, needs to also have strong business

skills and acumen to be successful.

Earning Your PgMP

SM

Before we talk specifics, let me ask you this. Have you ever helped your friend

move a piano up a flight of stairs? Have you ever climbed Mt. Everest, wrestled a

bear or lifted a Volkswagen Beatle over your head? Now think about doing all these

things at the same time and you’ll have an idea of what it takes to actually earn

your PgMP

SM

.

OK, I’m exaggerating. There weren’t any bears involved; however, I can tell you

from firsthand experience that PMI® hasn’t made this process easy — nor should

they have. From documenting literally thousands of hours of experience to a

grueling exam to an assessment by 12 of your colleagues, it’s as much a test of

endurance as it is experience and intellect.

So, for the benefit of any of you who might be seriously thinking of going after your

own PgMP

SM

— and, judging from all the buzz at this year’s PMI® Global Congress


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## IlPadrino (Jul 7, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> PgMP is a relatively new program. For those who've been around a long time (I'm dating myself here), defense/aerospace companies such as Lockheed, TRW, Boeing, Rockwell, Hughes, Martin Marietta, etc., had Program Management courses (took them through about a year out of college because my company required it) formerly offered through the auspices of the Defense Systems Management College. At that time, there was no such thing as Project Management, only Program Management and the acronym PM meant Program Manager in the DoD/Aerospace sector.
> "What goes round comes around" is true. The latest for DoD is "Systems of Systems Engineering". As stated at the IEEE Systems Engineering Council in 2007, "... one could define the Universe as the system". As engineers we realize that systems must be bounded.


Yeah... PgMP is a new program... was that what you were talking about in your first post regarding two PMPs? If so, I'd suggest it's too early to tell how industry, government, or the DoD will react to this certification.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 7, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Yeah... PgMP is a new program... was that what you were talking about in your first post regarding two PMPs? If so, I'd suggest it's too early to tell how industry, government, or the DoD will react to this certification.


Actually, I was addressing the other PMP (Project Management Professional) since the Rita text and most of industry is focused on this certification (and that was what the other posting mentioned for their PMP certification).

You're the first person that actually asked about PgMP. None of the DoD folks I know are focused on this right now. But then, S/W Engineering and industry do not handle large programs, but are project-based in line with PMI's definition of a project --- one-time task that goes away upon completion. More importantly, PMI's definition of a project is that once whatever it is that is developed (i.e., bridge, road, software application), it gets handed over to another organization or organizational entity for Operations and Maintenance (O&amp;M). Since you are familiar with DoD you realize that DoD does Program Management not Project Management. The DoD exception and aerospace for that matter based on my experience, is S/W Engineering. While an organizational entity such as a CSC, EDS, SAIC, et al may develop a software application for DoD, once it is blessed and becomes operational, another organization (usually a DoD entity or another contractor entity) is responsible for the O&amp;M.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, "wait-and-see". However, I really can't see commercial industry picking up on Program Management. Again, my example of bridges or roadways. Once a Halliburton or CH2M Hill builds something, especially on the State or Municipal level, the State or Municipal entity is the organizational entity that is responsible for O &amp; M. Not so in DoD. When a satellite, ship, submarine, or aircraft is built for DoD by a contractor, DoD is still the entity that does the O &amp; M. This is the reason that there are Program Managers (PMs) on the contractor and DoD side. I personally know several engineers that moved up to PMs (I came out of college and trained under them when they were PMs) that developed the first IMINT and SIGINT systems. By the time I graduated and worked for these people, they were the PMs on the 3rd/4th generation of these satellite families. There is a lot to be said when one is exposed to folks who worked on the first systems. It was a really challenging and exciting experience. Since I was in Engineer in charge of the autonomous C3I (now C4I in DoD nomenclature), I had to apply transmission line theory and high frequency communications theory to resolve the problem of signal reflection since there were multiple cables to provide redundancy and backup to multiple subsystems (that were systems unto themselves) that also had redundancy (in case of failure by another unit or two). As the PMs and Chief System Engineers that mentored me pointed out, "Things were much simpler. One box and one cable between boxes". When I asked why the change, they laughed and looked at me. "Well, you're the one with the VLSI and computer knowledge ---- what used to be a single box is now on a card in the box." Each of the 6 boxes that I was responsible for, along with the 48-bit-slice computer, had 24 populated card slots out of 28. I was more flabbergasted by the fact that there were 24 128-pin connectors on each of the boxes.

However, since these former PMs are not licensed PEs (though 2 have Ph.Ds in engineering), they cannot provide Verification of my Engineering Experience that would be accepted by my State Board so that I can take the PE Exam. Some have already passed on.

Sorry for going off on tangents, but it is really nice to interact with others who have the passion and knowledge that I find here at engineerboards.com.


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## squishles10 (Jul 12, 2008)

My BS is in Project Management, from the engineering school but not accredited. I could take the PE. I personally know at least 10 people that aren't degreed engineers that are PEs, in various states. I have an MS in Civil that took a year off, but it didn't change much else. I have never been in an interview before, or seen a job description that specifically asked about the PMP until the DoD. The job was for a construction manager, I don't know if that makes a difference or not.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 12, 2008)

squishles10 said:


> I have never been in an interview before, or seen a job description that specifically asked about the PMP until the DoD. The job was for a construction manager, I don't know if that makes a difference or not.


Now you're getting close to home... I doubt (hope!) it wasn't the Navy you're talking about. Was is the Army Corps of Engineers or the Air Force?


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## squishles10 (Jul 13, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Now you're getting close to home... I doubt (hope!) it wasn't the Navy you're talking about. Was is the Army Corps of Engineers or the Air Force?


Nope. This is a fun game- keep guessing! (Can you tell I'm unemployed and bored as hell???)


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## IlPadrino (Jul 13, 2008)

squishles10 said:


> Nope. This is a fun game- keep guessing! (Can you tell I'm unemployed and bored as hell???)


OK... DoD can only be the military departments (Army, Navy, and Air Force), the Joint Staff, and then lots of cats and dogs under the SecDef (too many to guess!). But to keep this going, you've already said it's not the military departments and the Joint Staff is a really long shot, so I'll go for... National Security Agency. But if you can't give me a hint, there's something like another twenty or thirty possibilities.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 13, 2008)

Here is my observation and contribution. Navy oversees almost all of the construction for military dependent housing here. Somehow, except for Stryker brigade related construction, they got oversight of other types of military construction. Oversight is the key concept here ---- they have contractors doing the actual work and more importantly -----&gt; operations and maintenance. The contractors that are performing this type of work are listing in their job requirements: CE degree, PMP (not PgMP) certification. Obviously with an EE degree, they are not interested in me. The contractors that are performing or in the process of bidding on O&amp;M contracts that are covered by these military contracts are the ones requiring PMP certification as part of the job requirement.

While not directly related to this forum (but to another forum here on this board), you may find these certifications "interesting" as a job requirement. For example, an FAA contractor in the Washington, DC area has listed within the job requirement: FE/EIT certification in lieu of an engineering degree. The rationale ===&gt; public safety.


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## squishles10 (Jul 13, 2008)

It's sort of under a few of the ones you mentioned above. It's not any of them that you did mention. I'll give you clues but it's hard.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 14, 2008)

squishles10 said:


> It's sort of under a few of the ones you mentioned above. It's not any of them that you did mention. I'll give you clues but it's hard.


OK... I'm sticking with SecDef then. Here's what might not be a complete list:

United States Secretary of Defense

* United States Deputy Secretary of Defense

o Office of the Secretary of Defense

+ Defense Policy Board Advisory Committee

+ Office of Net Assessment

+ Pentagon Force Protection Agency

+ Office of General Counsel

# Defense Legal Services Agency

+ Office of Inspector General

# Defense Criminal Investigative Service

o Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence

+ Defense Intelligence Agency

+ Defense Security Service

+ Counterintelligence Field Activity

+ National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency

+ National Reconnaissance Office

+ National Security Agency

o Under Secretary of Defense for Policy

+ Defense Security Cooperation Agency

+ Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office

o Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics

+ Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency

+ Missile Defense Agency

+ Defense Contract Management Agency

+ Defense Logistics Agency

+ Defense Threat Reduction Agency

+ Office of Economic Adjustment

+ Defense Acquisition University

+ Business Transformation Agency

+ Operational Test and Evaluation Directorate (DOT&amp;E)

o Under Secretary of Defense for Personnel and Readiness

+ Defense Commissary Agency

+ Defense Human Resources Activity

+ Department of Defense Education Activity

+ Department of Defense Dependents Schools

+ Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences

+ Defense Equal Opportunity Management Institute

+ Office of the Chancellor for Education and Professional Development

o Under Secretary of Defense Comptroller

+ Defense Contract Audit Agency

+ Defense Finance and Accounting Service

o Assistant Secretary of Defense for Networks and Information Integration

+ Defense Information Systems Agency

o Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs

+ Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, Internal Communications, Allison Barber

o Washington Headquarters Services

o Office of the Assistant Secretary of Defense for Health Affairs

+ Military Health System[1]

# TRICARE Management Activity

So I'll refine my guess to "Under Secretary of Defense for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics" and if forced to pick one, it'd be DTRA... no, DARPA.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 14, 2008)

GAO? I don't think they're technically DoD, but we had some GAO weenies in our office.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 14, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> GAO? I don't think they're technically DoD, but we had some GAO weenies in our office.



I hadn't thought of them...


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 14, 2008)

Came to me in a flash of inspiration.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 14, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Came to me in a flash of inspiration.


Better them than the Inspector General!


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## IlPadrino (Jul 15, 2008)

HWY PE said:


> It's probably the National Guard.


Except the National Guard isn't part of the Department of Defense... unless maybe your talking about a state's Department of Defense (if there even is such a thing).

Good feedback on the course... thanks.


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 15, 2008)

IlPadrino said:


> Except the National Guard isn't part of the Department of Defense... unless maybe your talking about a state's Department of Defense (if there even is such a thing).
> Good feedback on the course... thanks.


Surprise, surprise 

Yes, there is a state with a state Department of Defense --&gt; Hawaii. It is listed under the State Government departments.

Here is the link: http://hawaii.gov/dod

At least they don't require PMP certification.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 15, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> Surprise, surprise Yes, there is a state with a state Department of Defense --&gt; Hawaii. It is listed under the State Government departments.
> 
> Here is the link: http://hawaii.gov/dod
> 
> At least they don't require PMP certification.


I'm going to hazard a guess that squishles hasn't spent lots of time in Hawaii...


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 15, 2008)

HWY PE said:


> Not that I need the cert, but hey if it's free might as well get it right?


If it is free, it is for me!


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## squishles10 (Jul 15, 2008)

none of those. its under one or more of the branches of the armed forces, kind of.

one more day and ill give it up


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## IlPadrino (Jul 15, 2008)

squishles10 said:


> none of those. its under one or more of the branches of the armed forces, kind of.
> one more day and ill give it up


Alight... another hint: does the title contain the word "defense"? If so, I'll try Defense Contract Management Agency (DCMA).


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 15, 2008)

squishles10 said:


> none of those. its under one or more of the branches of the armed forces, kind of.
> one more day and ill give it up


I'll join in the guessing game ... Defense Logistics Agency (DLA)?


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 15, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> I'll join in the guessing game ... Defense Logistics Agency (DLA)?


My error ... DLA was on the earlier list.

How about Defense Systems Management College?

Government agencies supporting PMP certification include the U.S. Defense Systems Management College,

Note to IlPadrino, the following job description is in your neck of the woods: Hunt Valley, MD.

Also note at the bottom, "... an understanding of Sarbanes/Oxley". How many engineers can even spell this?

Maybe I ought to hurry up and take the PMI PMP certification exam and apply for this job. But then, I'll probably forgot engineering knowledge needed to take the PE exam since this position entails managing contracts, not engineering.

Job Information

Job title

Program Manager PMP or PMI DoD Development in Electronics

Company Design Staffing, LLC

Wage between $0.00 - $0.00 Annually

Location United States, Maryland, Hunt Valley

Employment type Full Time

Education Associate

Year Experience 3 - 4 Years of Practical Experience

Travel None

Published on 1/12/2007

Description

Job Title: Program Manager

Location: Hunt valley, MD

Our client is looking for Program Managers who must have an Engineering Degree and who come from Engineering backgrounds to join their growing team and to manage existing contracts. *The candidates must have PMI or PMP certification and have Defense Management Acquisition Knowledge and a minimum of 5 years experience.*

They are looking to hire Program Managers for their contracts that must have past experience on a DOD Development program and we are not looking for a Production PM.

The responsibilities will include program capture, planning, execution and closeout associated with critical Engineering Development projects.

Responsibilities will include proposal development with specific focus on cost volume development. Program Planning using (IMP/IMS) methods and other project management and contract coordination and or business management tasks as assigned.

Candidates must be US Citizens and must be able to hold at least a SECRET security clearance level. Some travel is required, and an understanding of Sarbanes/Oxley. Must have basic understanding of CMMI initiatives, ISO standards and compliance, supply chain management theory, and ERP system capabilities.

Education required: Bachelors Degree in an engineering discipline or technical field, preferably Electrical/Mechanical with electronics development experience.

Please send me a copy of your resume in word attachment [email protected]

df-tc

Experience/Skills

Candidates must be US Citizens and must be able to hold at least a SECRET security clearance level. Some travel is required, and an understanding of Sarbanes/Oxley. Must have basic understanding of CMMI initiatives, ISO standards and compliance, supply chain management theory, and ERP system capabilities.

Please send me a copy of your resume in word attachment [email protected]

Other desired skills:

Program Manager PMP or PMI DoD Development in Electronics


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## KnowledgeAcquirer (Jul 16, 2008)

Capt Worley PE said:


> If it is free, it is for me!


You might be interested in the following downloadable PowerPoint file:

www.pmi-adsig.org/Documents/PMI%20A&amp;D%20SIG%20Benefits.ppt

Maybe they used this in your class.


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## squishles10 (Jul 16, 2008)

And the winner is...

AAFES


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## benbo (Jul 16, 2008)

KnowledgeAcquirer said:


> Wage between $0.00 - $0.00 Annually


I know they're trying to cut the deficit, but this is a little low.


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## Sschell (Jul 16, 2008)

PMP... hmmmm... can I buy a vowel?


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## GT ME (Jul 25, 2008)

PMP is for morons that don't have the intelligence to obtain a 90% (or even 60%) percentile on the GMAT -- it's an out for neanderthal man to justify his/her existence in a civilized society.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 26, 2008)

squishles10 said:


> And the winner is...
> AAFES


Damn, I should have thought of that... but being Navy (we have our own Navy Exchange and don't play with the Army and Air Force in AAFES) it didn't jump out at me. Too, it's a non-appropriated fund activity (I think) so that also puts them in a different light.

I remember working on a DECA project in Italy... what a hassle! I'm tempted to describe the headquarters PM as a nazi, except he was german so that's probably a little inappropriate!

Did you like working for AAFES? Did you do construction or O&amp;M?


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## Dan Jacobsen (Jul 28, 2008)

I got my PMP certification about a year ago. My advice is to look at the really big high points of the PMBOK. I don't have anything even close to total recall, so the PMBOK stuff doesn't stick very well! Buy a good exam prep book by Rita Mulcahy (I did not use hers, but I have heard it is very good). I used one by Andy Crowe. I highly recommend this book. Use your PC and do as many "mock" exams as you can stomach. I knew I was read to take it when I could recognize mistakes in some online mock exams. I would open up an exam and my electronic version of the PMBOK at the same time. When I missed a question, I would look it up in PMBOK. Worked pretty well. DON'T ASSUME YOUR PM EXPERIENCE WILL HELP YOU PASS!!!!!


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## squishles10 (Aug 25, 2008)

This thread is getting ridiculous. Half the people I work with have an MBA. A third have a PMP. A PMP is required at the Program Manager level and above, and I believe that is DoD wide, maybe not. I took the GMAT and got accepted to Vanderbilt's Business School- obviously I didn't fail it. I didn't go- I didn't want to go. Looking around at the engineers with MBAs and huge egos and no base in reality makes me very happy with my choice not to go.

I like working for AAFES a lot. I get to fly all over and I don't have to do design anymore. I was SO tired of design. I still get to go hang out on construction projects and tell public works employees where to shove it. And I get paid a lot to do it. The benefits are fantastic and everyone I meet in the hallway is always smiling and happy to be at work. EVERYONE, and I work in a building with 4000 employees. If you can keep all of them happy, then you are doing something right. I don't work with arrogant pricks, never met one here. No one cares where you went to school, how high your GMAT score was, or how great you were at your last job. It's quire refreshing.


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