# Could you do your job without an engineering degree?



## slickjohannes (Jun 22, 2014)

A forum that is dedicated to those seeking to become PE's is probably the wrong place to ask this question, but... could you do your job without an engineering degree?

A co-worker and I had a BS session this past Friday and came to the conclusion that many of the positions that have 'engineer' in the title could be succesfully fulfilled with a high school science/math background. Personally, this could be said for two positions I previously held. My university advisor told us that, generally, your responsibilities will likely require one education level less than what the job description required. Sadly, my experience confirms that statement.

Which leads to my next question- did your employer actually check to see that you do in fact have a degree? I'm with my second company and neither checked (to my knowledge). Makes me wonder what I spent all that money for...


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## YMZ PE (Jun 22, 2014)

As a geotechnical engineer, no. Most of the geotechs I've worked with have at least their Masters degrees; the ones who only have their Bachelors are usually relegated to drafting boring logs and other grunt work.

Regarding your second question, no, but geotech is comprised of a very small, well-connected network so it's easy to verify someone's educational background by merely chatting with academia at conferences. One guy I know of who was exposed for lying about his education, had a Masters degree on display in his office that was written entirely in German. He still gets hired at various firms because no one verifies his resume.


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## akwooly (Jun 23, 2014)

No

Yes


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## goodal (Jun 23, 2014)

No

Yes


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## Supe (Jun 23, 2014)

I'll go out on a limb and say "yes", but it would likely take 15-20 years of additional experience to get there, and that would not be your average Joe.

However, the position I'm in per our quality requirements require a degree. This was verified by my employer. In fact, for non-degreed employees (entry level techs), they require you to submit a copy of your high school diploma.


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## Exception Collection (Jun 23, 2014)

Yeah, I can handle the work (Structural) just fine without a degree. At worst it means that I have weird small gaps here and there, like variable names. Show me a formula using greek characters, I'm fine. Tell me a variable verbally and I might not match the name to the character. Had that happen with Phi once, during a job interview. Only time I have ever been interviewed and not gotten the job.

Of course, at this point I have the extra experience Supe mentioned (I think 4-8 yrs is about right) and I don't think average or even slightly above average people could handle it.

I would never fraudulently claim an unearned honor - and to me, a false degree is flat out fraud and should be punished accordingly by both the justice system and the relevant Boards - and I hope they do check.


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## engineergurl (Jun 23, 2014)

Yes and No- I however don't really do any engineering work right now, so it's probably not a fair question for me to answer.


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## csb (Jun 23, 2014)

Guys doing my job without a degree have an average of 20 years experience. I think it's fair to say almost anyone could do a job without college, just let them amass enough experience. College is a boot camp of knowledge and it teaches you to critically think. So, yes, I could do my job without a degree, but not right now.

And I uniquely got my job and started it without my degree (a class didn't finish when it was supposed to finish) and I told them outright. It cost me money and benefits, but I couldn't lie about something like that.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 23, 2014)

yes. our group is mixture of engineers, geologists and biology/science majors. We all do the same thing.

Yes they check now. They apparently fired someone after they had been working for 10+ years because they lied about the degree. if you lie on the app it will prohibit you from applying for state jobs forever.


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## Dark Knight (Jun 23, 2014)

Maybe and Maybe...

1) It will largely depend on the individual. But it will have to be an extraordinary individual with a self teaching gene and lots of years of experience.

2) I worked for a company that fired an individual because he lied about his education. Ahhhh...they caught him around 6 years after he was hired. Have no ways to tell if others companies I have worked for do their due diligence in this aspect. I assume they do but your guess is as good as mine.


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## csb (Jun 23, 2014)

csb said:


> Guys doing my job without a degree have an average of 20 years experience. I think it's fair to say almost anyone could do a job without college, just let them amass enough experience. College is a boot camp of knowledge and it teaches you to critically think. So, yes, I could do my job without a degree, but not right now.
> 
> And I uniquely got my job and started it without my degree (a class didn't finish when it was supposed to finish) and I told them outright. It cost me money and benefits, but I couldn't lie about something like that.




And I'd like to rant for a bit about the guys who say, "I do your job without a degree." Well super for you...but I'm doing my job with zero years of experience and three years of engineering education and you're doing my job with zero years of engineering education and 20 years of experience.

I usually try not to let it get under my skin, but something about this thread set me off.


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## goodal (Jun 23, 2014)

Yea, some people feel intimidated by the degree so they feel the need to put those of us with one down. GOD FORBID an engineer ever make a mistake and one of those bone heads find it. I am a consulting engineer, which requires a PE, which requires a degree.


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## engineergurl (Jun 23, 2014)

goodal said:


> I am a consulting engineer, which requires a PE, which requires a degree.




untrue statement...

and I think the fact that some states do allow non-degree holders to obtain a PE kind of addresses the first few questions. With enough experience, someone CAN get a PE so therefore, with enough experience someone CAN probably preform your job tasks.

The degree gets you there faster, probably means you are going to make more money because you are a more valuable asset to an employer, and you probably have better opportunities for growth than a person without a degree.

Personally, I feel like all my education was a big waste of money.


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## Exception Collection (Jun 23, 2014)

I don't look down on those that have degrees; quite the opposite actually. I do get looked down on for not having a degree, though, to the point of other PEs (and Architects, and contractors, and plan reviewers, and the general public) telling me I have no business being in the field. So I grew a thicker skin and became a bit more defensive about it.


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## engineergurl (Jun 23, 2014)

Exception Collection said:


> I don't look down on those that have degrees; quite the opposite actually. I do get looked down on for not having a degree, though, to the point of other PEs (and Architects, and contractors, and plan reviewers, and the general public) telling me I have no business being in the field. So I grew a thicker skin and became a bit more defensive about it.




I just had to get to a point where I realized and understood that my self worth is not determined by someone else's opinion, be it a boss or a stranger on the internet.


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## mudpuppy (Jun 23, 2014)

No, I don't think so. You'd need an understanding of Calculus and diff eq that goes beyond a high-school education.

My employer did verify my transcripts and wanted me to bring my diploma in my first day of work. It also took a couple years to get HR to finally verify I have a Master's degree.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 23, 2014)

mudpuppy said:


> No, I don't think so. You'd need an understanding of Calculus and diff eq that goes beyond a high-school education.


lusone:

My latest employer (large company) did a very thorough background check on me which included all the credentials I listed on my resume/application.


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## engineergurl (Jun 23, 2014)

knight1fox3 said:


> mudpuppy said:
> 
> 
> > No, I don't think so. You'd need an understanding of Calculus and diff eq that goes beyond a high-school education.
> ...




Just to play devils advocate, is a degree required to have an understanding of calculus and differential equations beyond a high-school education? The lack of a degree does not always mean that there is a lack of education.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 23, 2014)

^ correct. And the way I interpreted MP's statement, neither he nor I was insinuating that a degree = an understanding of higher level math. But that higher level requirement is still there. No matter how it gets accomplished (i.e. college degree, tech college certificate, etc.).


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## Exception Collection (Jun 23, 2014)

engineergurl said:


> I just had to get to a point where I realized and understood that my self worth is not determined by someone else's opinion, be it a boss or a stranger on the internet.


It's not always about self-worth, though. Sometimes it's about making sure that the jurisdiction accepts documents I signed (in a State I am licensed in), that a contractor does what I tell them to do, or that the client doesn't get offended because he takes me as lower-tier help. From my PoV, it's not just about respect to me: It's also about respect to my office, the State Board's ability to make their own choices about who to license, and our profession.


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## engineergurl (Jun 23, 2014)

Exception Collection said:


> engineergurl said:
> 
> 
> > I just had to get to a point where I realized and understood that my self worth is not determined by someone else's opinion, be it a boss or a stranger on the internet.
> ...


All of those things are external factors and shouldn't really matter...

ie. If a contractor doesn't do what you tell them to do, who ends up facing the consequences of that decision? Same with the jurisdiction item... your observing it all from your own view, but aren't those issues that every PE can possibly face regardless of their education level? I've seen plenty of times where a contractor didn't do what the PE put on the plans, and they ended up re-doing their work...


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## ALBin517 (Jun 24, 2014)

The other project engineer at my workplace got his degree in architecture. So yes, people can do my job without an engineering degree.

Although his chance of advancement is zero until/if he gets a PE.

But in my case, I was 26 with five years of work experience and probably going to kill the next 21-year-old engineer who talked down to me for not having a degree. So my engineering degree was required; prison being the only alternative.


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## envirotex (Jun 24, 2014)

I have specialized experience that I wouldn't have otherwise received had it not been for my degrees, so I would say no to question 1.

I have provided my transcripts to my employers. I don't know whether or not they have reviewed them...


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## rktman (Jun 24, 2014)

If we're honest, then no a degree is probably not an absolute requirement, but some due diligence is required by our society to prove ourselves capable of understanding the issues.

I know a very capable design tech/survey guy (has his own consulting firm). He's one of the smartest people I've met, but he refuses to recognize the importance of a professional license/degree. I didn't mind his design suggestions until I started my own firm. It was then that I understood the problem with his attitude. The problem is that if or when something goes wrong, he has no liability and no responsibility to society.

He blocked a large local project due to his failure to recognize all design aspects. With a degree, he might have thought it thru. People may lose their jobs because of it. As such, I have a new respect for our education and licensure requirements.

(Rereading this, I should note that I am not in competition with this guy in any way)


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## Road Guy (Jun 24, 2014)

A college degree really just gives you an opportunity in my opinion that's all


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## cement (Jun 25, 2014)

The degree shows that you are capable of finishing a task. The work I do is mostly algebra and common sense, but acquiring the degree was the foundation for that common sense, aka engineering judgement.


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## Boomer01 PE (Jun 25, 2014)

I agree with others in that an engineering degree weeds out the less qualified. Most of the work you do is based on training and these days almost everything is done with computers, so no calculations are needed.

You'd obviously have to have your degree to get a PE, so you could only "fake it" for so long.


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## YMZ PE (Jun 25, 2014)

Boomer01 PE said:


> You'd obviously have to have your degree to get a PE, so you could only "fake it" for so long.




Not this merde again.


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## engineergurl (Jun 25, 2014)

YMZ PE said:


> Boomer01 PE said:
> 
> 
> > You'd obviously have to have your degree to get a PE, so you could only "fake it" for so long.
> ...




seriously...


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## EngInNJ (Jun 25, 2014)

A significant portion of time I would say yes. Also yes to second question. My opinion - getting engineering degree is not an intelligence test, more so it is an endurance test. Shows you can set a goal, persevere and finish. Remember that speech on first day of freshman year? " look to the left and look to the right, that person will not be here in 4 years". How true. That is what sets people apart that have engineering degree.


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## rktman (Jun 26, 2014)

EngInNJ said:


> A significant portion of time I would say yes. Also yes to second question. My opinion - getting engineering degree is not an intelligence test, more so it is an endurance test. Shows you can set a goal, persevere and finish. Remember that speech on first day of freshman year? " look to the left and look to the right, that person will not be here in 4 years". How true. That is what sets people apart that have engineering degree.


Very well said.


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## NJmike PE (Jun 26, 2014)

Absolutely. In fact, initially I did my job w/o the benefit of a degree. I was first hired back in 1999 as a CAD draftsman and worked my way up the ladder. In that *TIME*, I have started and finished knight classes, and taken and passed both the FE and PE. It isn't the way most people want to do it. Most want to walk into the position and rely on their educational background. However, the reality for me was that I couldn't afford to go to school full*TIME* and had to juggle both work and school at the same. However, I will say that as I continued through school, my professional experience actually worked in my favor, making my classes much easier. Part of me still thinks that no matter what my job title is, I will always be the 21 y.o. kid they hired with only drafting experience. So to come full circle and answer the first question, yes. They actually often hire candidates with limited or no knowledge and train them which will also support my answer to the second question of no.


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## akwooly (Jun 26, 2014)

Based on my public meeting last night, everyone can do my job. and better too.


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## YMZ PE (Jun 26, 2014)

NJ, glad to see you got the last of that herb out of your system.


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## Judowolf PE (Jun 26, 2014)

So NJ, they hired you as a squire first, before knight classes?


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## NJmike PE (Jun 26, 2014)

YMZ PE said:


> NJ, glad to see you got the last of that herb out of your system.


who is Herb?


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## snickerd3 (Jun 26, 2014)

someone who had too much Thyme on their hands


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## NJmike PE (Jun 26, 2014)

Eye sea


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