# Am I Nuts?



## Chucktown PE (Sep 21, 2009)

I know what some of you are thinking after reading the Topic Title. "Hell yes Chucktown is nuts."

Actually I am in a bit of a career crisis and wanted some advice.

I have seriously been thinking about applying to medical school for the fall of 2011. I don't know if it's even possible because I have to get a biology and organic chemistry prerequisite in and that assumes that I don't need to retake General Chemistry. I think I could begin my prerequisite course work in January 2010 at the College of Charleston and knock it out by the end of the Summer 2010. Of course I'd be working full time. Then I'd have a month or two to study for the MCAT, then take the MCAT in September 2010. Then I think I could apply to MUSC for enrollment in August 2011.

So, am I nuts? Probably so. But I freaking hate my job right now. It's totally unrewarding and I've been talking to some of my friends that are doctors and they love it. If I am going to do this it will obviously require a ridiculous amount of work and sacrifice on both mine and my family's part. Not only financially, which will really hurt, but in time. I'd pretty much be a ghost for a while.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.


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## ElCid03 (Sep 21, 2009)

Grasshopper,

Do or do not there is not try.

Medical school is not a bad path, but if you are trying to escape the drudgery of project management it will follow you there too. Doctors have to worry about how much the insurance reimbursements are this month just as much as they worry about a paintent's diagnosis. A fundamental shift is coming in how medicine works in this country. Doctors are going to see some changes to compensation practices that they might not care for such as those starting to take shape in the financial industry. MUSC is a fine school, but you will go into a great deal of debt to switch careers.

I think that the first question that you must ask yourself is this: "Is medicine by passion?" Do you want to practice medicine because your passion is helping people live better lives? If you can say yes without a seond thought than by all means become a doctor. If you can't then I recommened some more self reflection.

Here's an interesting idea if you really want to go to medical school: become a military doctor. My great grandfather spent the morning on June 6, 1944 on a hospital ship patching up the men brought off of Omaha Beach. The services never have enough doctors because you can make so much more money in private practice. They pay for medical school, and yes there is a long service committment for that investment, but you can do medical school for free. If helping people is your true passion, then it will not matter to you whether or not your making a hefty private industry salary at first. You can serve, transfer your commission to the reserve component, serve part time and still have a retirement check in the end along with a fat 401(k).

Good luck with what ever you may decide.


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## Dleg (Sep 21, 2009)

^Or become a commissioned officer with the US Public Health Service. Same salary and benefits as the military. Then, you can help underserved peoples AND implement the dreaded electronic medical records program, and fly to your remotest patients in a black helicopter. But, the PHS will pay off your medical school loans.

Seriously. If you're going to do this, do it now. You're still young enough that it might all work out. The biggest issue in my mind would be the tuition costs, but if you can only embrace Uncle Fed, that could be covered....


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## benbo (Sep 21, 2009)

You could always take the pre-requisites and the MCAT. But two things to carefully consider-

1.	How are you going to support your family for the next 6 plus years?

2.	You have no idea how the health care proposals might change the career in the next few years. Maybe not at all, maybe a lot. But it's something to look into. I would have thought that you, of all people, would have considered this angle.

Plus, and I hate to mention it, there is always the chance you will do all of this prep and not get into an allopathic med school. You not only have to score high on the MCAT and get high grades, you need medically related research and extracurriculars as well in most cases.

FWIW check out www.aamc.org - they have a practice MCAT that's sort of fun.


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 21, 2009)

benbo said:


> You could always take the pre-requisites and the MCAT. But two things to carefully consider-1.	How are you going to support your family for the next 6 plus years?
> 
> 2.	You have no idea how the health care proposals might change the career in the next few years. Maybe not at all, maybe a lot. But it's something to look into. I would have thought that you, of all people, would have considered this angle.


Those are the two points I thought of when I read Chuck's first post. It's not so much a financial investment as it is a time investment. Doctors go to school/residency for a decade...and that's 6 more years (assuming your undergrad counts for everything needed for med school) where you won't be drawing a salary, while at the same time paying tuition for med school.

Then, at the end of all that, doctors might be paid the same as us engineers thanks to the the "public option health care plan".


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## Guest (Sep 21, 2009)

What is actually drawing you to the medical profession aside from anecdotal information from some people who have offered that they love the job? Is there a way to harness this love in another career path that might not require as much time/financial investment but yield the same result? Perhaps something that you can build upon your existing education/experience/proficiency?

Have you considered nursing school? Not as much time investment, plenty of fast-track degree oppotunities including on-line degrees, loan forgiveness for entering particular career-fields with limited time invested, and ... wait for it ....







In all seriousness ... something to consider. I considered it once but I happen to be happy with engineering. I might do it if I suddenly found myself unemployable.

JR


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## testee (Sep 21, 2009)

You're nuts.


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## benbo (Sep 21, 2009)

THe technical part of medicine is probably fun. But one thing I would do (if you're not already doing it) if I were considering this get my ass down and volunteer major time at a hospital, nursing home, heath care or hospice program. See what it's like dealing with sick people, since that's what most doctors do. In my experience there is nothing so emotionally draining.


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## Chucktown PE (Sep 21, 2009)

benbo said:


> You could always take the pre-requisites and the MCAT. But two things to carefully consider-1. How are you going to support your family for the next 6 plus years?
> 
> 2. You have no idea how the health care proposals might change the career in the next few years. Maybe not at all, maybe a lot. But it's something to look into. I would have thought that you, of all people, would have considered this angle.
> 
> ...



I have definitely thought about all of this.

A little background, I was very close to trying to get into medical school after I finished graduate school in 03. I really wish I had. The reason I didn't was because I talked to some doctors that were close family friends that were in their mid-40s, in the prime of their careers, and they were really frustrated with being doctors because of the red tape, insurance companies, etc. In fact they told me point blank, 'do not go to medical school.' This is still in the back of my mind as a reason not to do it.

Obviously I have looked at the financial burden this would place on my family. I'm not an idiot. Basically, my wife would have to go back to work. I have enough money to pay the in-state tuition without taking out any loans, but that assumes we don't buy a house and continue renting, which would probably be smart because we'd need to move for a residency program anyway.

Lastly, I wouldn't quit my current job until I actually started medical school. All my prerequisites would be done during night school. I'm pretty confident that with my GPA from Clemson, and assuming I could pull a decent GPA for the prerequisites I could get in. But you never know.

As far as what's drawing me to it, it's both the desire to help people, and another thing I love about the medical profession is the constant learning that doctors are encourage/required to undertake. I'm not learning shit in my job right now and I hate it. I'm not improving myself or my career. Further background, my dad is a veterinarian and I've always loved those two aspects of his career as well. Veterinary school is also an option although it's harder to get in to Vet school than med school.

Thanks for the advice, encouragement, thoughts, etc.


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## Dleg (Sep 21, 2009)

There are engineering jobs where you can help people, too, and continue to learn.... without having to go back and spend another 8% of your life in school. Have you thoroughly considered all your options as an engineer? Or have you only considered staying in the consulting field?


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## EM_PS (Sep 21, 2009)

Wow, jumping into med school in pursuit of becoming a medical doctor is def a heavy commitment! There are so many branches &amp; fields in the medical industry, many not requiring that level of time &amp; financial expenditure. Poss consider some of those (radiologist, dosimetrist come to mind) or supposedly biomedical engineering is an up &amp; coming field, and one in which you have more of an "in" in.

But hell, if you freaking hate what you're doing now, its best to pursue something sooner than later (esp while young) - good luck!


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## Wolverine (Sep 21, 2009)

Good book for you - Pathfinder, by Nicholas Lore.

Nobody should stay in a job they despise, with people they hate, on a career path that ends in a cul-de-sac. Read it, learn it, live it. Well, at least consider it.

Explore the untraditional - find a career path that fits all your skills. [Here's where I would normally insert a joke about a career path as a page to Mark Foley, but making a life changing decision to redefine your career is a serious subject that takes a lot of balls]

(as does Mark Foley)


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## Capt Worley PE (Sep 22, 2009)

benbo said:


> You could always take the pre-requisites and the MCAT. But two things to carefully consider-1.	How are you going to support your family for the next 6 plus years?
> 
> 2.	You have no idea how the health care proposals might change the career in the next few years. Maybe not at all, maybe a lot. But it's something to look into. I would have thought that you, of all people, would have considered this angle.


That pretty much sums up what I thought on the subject.



jregieng said:


> Have you considered nursing school? Not as much time investment, plenty of fast-track degree oppotunities including on-line degrees, loan forgiveness for entering particular career-fields with limited time invested, and ... wait for it ....


That's a good avenue to look at. I looked at doing that back in 94, but don't really like 'yucky medical stuff' and to be quite honest, I'm not much of a people person.

Oh, I just wanted to post that pic again, too.



Chucktown PE said:


> In fact they told me point blank, 'do not go to medical school.' This is still in the back of my mind as a reason not to do it.


Dude, I've heard the same thing. I'd heed their advice.



Wolverine said:


> Nobody should stay in a job they despise, with people they hate, on a career path that ends in a cul-de-sac.


Good point.

Chuck, I'd start looking for a new job in engineering. Maybe biomedical engineering.


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## chaosiscash (Sep 22, 2009)

If you just hate your job (place of employment), find another one. Despite popular belief, there are lots of companies still hiring qualified people, especially if you're willing to move. If you hate your career, and want to be a doctor, and you're family is supportive, and you can make it work financially, etc, go back to school. It really can be that simple.

How does the wife feel about it? You said she'd have to go back to work, but what about the childcare responsibilities? I can imagine during your school, residency, etc that you will not have as much time as you'd like for family. That could leave your wife going back to work full time, as well as continuing to provide primary care for the kids. If she's 100% supportive of that, thats great. Just something to think about.

A possibly similar anecdote. One of my buddies at Clemson, a ME, graduated with me in 2002 and went to work for a local company in Greenville. He worked for a year or two and decided he hated his job and "wasn't ever going to make the money he wanted to", so he went back to law school. After several years (his wife was able to support them during the time he was in school), he graduated and started practicing. He is still searching for what he wants be, and makes less than I do. I realize every situation is different, all I'm saying is make sure that it's the career you dislike, and not the job. And also be sure that medicine is the career you want, because once you make the commitment, it will be much more difficult to change careers again.

Good luck with your decisions. FWIW, without knowing you, I think you'll have no problem getting into MUSC.


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## Chucktown PE (Sep 22, 2009)

benbo said:


> THe technical part of medicine is probably fun. But one thing I would do (if you're not already doing it) if I were considering this get my ass down and volunteer major time at a hospital, nursing home, heath care or hospice program. See what it's like dealing with sick people, since that's what most doctors do. In my experience there is nothing so emotionally draining.


Good idea. I may look at doing that. I think I would prefer to do something more with procedures rather than front line type patient care.



Dleg said:


> There are engineering jobs where you can help people, too, and continue to learn.... without having to go back and spend another 8% of your life in school. Have you thoroughly considered all your options as an engineer? Or have you only considered staying in the consulting field?


Also thought about that. I am going to try to start getting involved in Water for People or Engineers without Borders. I have looked at doing something other than consulting work but I think my frustrations with the engineering profession would increase, not the other way around.



error_matrix said:


> But hell, if you freaking hate what you're doing now, its best to pursue something sooner than later (esp while young) - good luck!


That was my thought. Time to shit or get off the pot. I just think that I'll truly hate myself if I wake up 5 more years from now, as I am doing right now, and say "I wish I'd gone to medical school when I had the chance".



Wolverine said:


> Good book for you - Pathfinder, by Nicholas Lore.
> Nobody should stay in a job they despise, with people they hate, on a career path that ends in a cul-de-sac. Read it, learn it, live it. Well, at least consider it.
> 
> Explore the untraditional - find a career path that fits all your skills. [Here's where I would normally insert a joke about a career path as a page to Mark Foley, but making a life changing decision to redefine your career is a serious subject that takes a lot of balls]
> ...


Thanks. I'll definitely pick it up.



Capt Worley PE said:


> Dude, I've heard the same thing. I'd heed their advice.


That's easier said than done. The fact is that they still have very rewarding careers and I don't.



chaosiscash said:


> How does the wife feel about it? You said she'd have to go back to work, but what about the childcare responsibilities? I can imagine during your school, residency, etc that you will not have as much time as you'd like for family. That could leave your wife going back to work full time, as well as continuing to provide primary care for the kids. If she's 100% supportive of that, thats great. Just something to think about.
> Good luck with your decisions. FWIW, without knowing you, I think you'll have no problem getting into MUSC.


She says she's supportive but I don't think she understands how seriously I'm considering it. The lack of family time/financial burden is the one thing that is really holding me back. One of my good friends (former roomate/fraternity brother) is doing his fellowship in cardiology right now at MUSC. I am totally jealous of his career, not so much his 60-70 hour a week work schedule. But I think if I liked what I was doing it would feel like 60-70 hours a week.


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## Kephart P.E. (Sep 22, 2009)

I don't know your background, but I would try a different a couple different companies/field before I gave up on Engineering and became a Doc. I was fed up with Consulting until a worked for another Firm and today 1 1/2 years later I am pretty happy.

I know a couple Doctors and most of them wish they had become Physician Assistant's or Lawyers. That is except for the Surgeon I know, but really his ego is so big I don't know if there is any field he would be happy in except Politics.


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## Dexman1349 (Sep 22, 2009)

A modified approach to the medical path would be to get into Nursing as JR pointed out, then a short time later (I think the curent requirements are 2 years) would be to go back again to be a Nurse Practicioner (sp?). A NP can basically perform the same duties as an MD and get there with considerably less time in school.

There are some great nursing programs out there that may help you out tremendously. My wife just finished an "accelerated" program here in Denver and bascially got her Bachelor's of Nursing in under 12 months (started in mid-January, ended in December, but had a pair of 2-week breaks). She used her clinical time to explore the various specialties and found one she really enjoys. She is absolutely loving her new job, and after about 7 months on the job she is already making as much as I am (plus she is hourly compared to my salary pay...). She went into the program with the intention of becoming a Nurse Practicioner, but so far she is happy where she's at.

There are some accelerated programs (available to people that already have a Bachelor's degree) that can get you a 2nd BS within 2 years (some in under 1).

Just a thought...


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## MGX (Sep 22, 2009)

Do you want to hang out with sick/old people all day?

Most patients aren't 20 year old coeds (unless you specialize in VD) :bananadoggywow:


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## Dexman1349 (Sep 22, 2009)

MGX said:


> Do you want to hang out with sick/old people all day?
> Most patients aren't 20 year old coeds (unless you specialize in VD) :bananadoggywow:


Or you could specialize in Breast Augmentation...


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## klk (Sep 22, 2009)

D. Kephart said:


> I don't know your background, but I would try a different a couple different companies/field before I gave up on Engineering and became a Doc. I was fed up with Consulting until a worked for another Firm and today 1 1/2 years later I am pretty happy.


I second this, not from personal experience, but from other consultants I know. One engineer I know who worked for a different company was getting really fed up with the bureaucratic red tape of managing projects. He was initially hired by the firm many years ago to do process design work, not project management. But he ended up having to manage projects and deal with red tape instead of doing the fun process work. When he resigned last month (and started up his own firm), he ended up taking all of his fun process work with him (since clients had hired his former company for his experience) and now he doesn't have to deal with the bureaucratic red tape of his former job and is so much happier.

Also, getting involved with Water for People or some other professional organization (like WEF or your local WEF MA) also makes this job feel more rewarding, in my opinion. This also helps with the networking options, so if colleagues at other firms find out you're unhappy at your current job, they are more likely to find a position for you in their organization even if they don't have the position listed.


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## benbo (Sep 22, 2009)

Poor Chuck. Nobody will give him a straight answer. I will Chuck - Yes, you are nuts.

Seriously, why not just take the O Chem and MCAT and see how you like it. Heck, that sounds sort of interesting even if you don't want to go to med school.


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## maryannette (Sep 23, 2009)

What about taking some classes that would give you some medical knowledge and looking for a job in medical technology design. I have known a couple people who designed artificial heart devices ... sort of medical engineering. I know those jobs would be very limited, though.

I agree that there are ways to work in engineering that are fulfilling. I would explore all of those options first.


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 23, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> Or you could specialize in Breast Augmentation...


That's the best idea I've heard yet. Most of your patients would be young, attractive females, and they would be jumping at the chance to show you their naughty bits. Plus, you would have to deal with the insurance companies nearly as much since plastic surgery isn't covered under most policies. You could also get the sense of helping the populace with the cancer/mastectomy patients. One potential downside is working with the she-males wanting to become more she than male, but you always have the right to refuse a patient. Another downside is that you would have to move to Miami or LA or NYC to hit it big in your profession.


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## Capt Worley PE (Sep 23, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> Or you could specialize in Breast Augmentation...


And the TV show will be called Nip/Chuck.


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## benbo (Sep 23, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Another downside is that you would have to move to Miami or LA or NYC to hit it big in your profession.


Living in South Carolina, you could pursue the equally rewarding specialty of urologist to Mark Sanford.


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## MA_PE (Sep 23, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> And the TV show will be called Nip/Chuck.


zing! good one.


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 23, 2009)

benbo said:


> Living in South Carolina, you could pursue the equally rewarding specialty of urologist to Mark Sanford.


I think urologist and proctologist are tied for the most polar opposite medical career path than plastic surgery. Even being the "Urologists to the Stars" doesn't sound like a great deal.


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## EM_PS (Sep 23, 2009)

benbo said:


> Poor Chuck. Nobody will give him a straight answer. I will Chuck - Yes, you are nuts.


ahhh yeah, some time ago actually, from the 'horse's mouth' so to say (post #7 below)



testee said:


> You're nuts.





Capt Worley PE said:


> And the TV show will be called Nip/Chuck.


:rotflmao:


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## benbo (Sep 23, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I think urologist and proctologist are tied for the most polar opposite medical career path than plastic surgery. Even being the "Urologists to the Stars" doesn't sound like a great deal.


I just figured he could use his wastewater civil engineering experience - dealing with foul smelling goop seeping out of pipes.


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## benbo (Sep 23, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> ahhh yeah, some time ago actually, from the 'horse's mouth' so to say (post #7 below)
> 
> 
> 
> :rotflmao:


Yes, I knew about this, but I'm talking about nuts as in crazy. I'm not sure what testee's talking about.


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## Dark Knight (Sep 23, 2009)

Chuck....from my point of view: Yes...you are nuts!!!!!!!!!!!! :w00t:

Good Luck!!!!!!!!


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## Ble_PE (Sep 23, 2009)

Dark Knight said:


> Chuck....from my point of view: Yes...you are nuts!!!!!!!!!!!! :w00t:
> Good Luck!!!!!!!!


I have to agree, but then again, I'm not a big risk taker when it comes to my career/livelihood. I also enjoy what I'm doing now, so I'm happy with where I am, but I know that it is very frustrating to despise what you are doing.

On a related note, I've seen Engineering without Borders and Water for People mentioned one here. Has anyone volunteered for either of these? I spent some time reading about them and they seem like great causes, but I was wondering if anyone had any firsthand experience.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Sep 23, 2009)

From what I gather, and I'll be the first to say my knowledge is limited, is that at least for EWB, its a student driven organization with technical expertise and financial backing from college institutions and private companies.

I attended a series of Friday afternoon lectures at Dartmouth when I lived up that way because my wife was there and forced to attend and they counted as NH PDHs and were free I'm a concerned engineer trying to stay current with the times.

One was about EWB. The mentorship comes from the profs and consultants in industry, so I guess that's rewarding in its own right. But the vast bulk of it came from college students who volunteered to do low tech engineering work in 3rd world countries. It sounded cool, but the kind of thing that would be hard to do if you were a working professional with a wife and kids and the 2-story in suburbia.

I think as a working professional with responsibilities at home, it would be a lot harder to detach yourself for 3 months and go to the middle of Africa.


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## EM_PS (Sep 23, 2009)

so the other day, i'm at the doc's office for my semi-annual physical. we get to the 'drop the drawers turn your head &amp; cough part', so before dropping my trousers, the doc says "ok lets see your nuts" so i reply "well doc, I'm thinking of switching careers, going to medical school and becoming a doctor. . ." :band:


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Sep 23, 2009)




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## EM_PS (Sep 23, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> A little background, I was very close to trying to get into medical school after I finished graduate school in 03. I really wish I had.


In all seriousness, i am curious. . .you finished w/ a BSCE (presumably) and an MS in some form of engineering (again presumably), so 4-6 years of your life &amp; $$. . .what in the world was drawing you to plunging back into another 4- 8 yrs of schooling in an unrelated non-correlatable field _back then_ (i.e. pre-work burnout)?


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## Capt Worley PE (Sep 24, 2009)

^^What he said.

Pretty big investment to throw away.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Sep 24, 2009)

I knew a guy my wife went to grad school with. Got a BS in eng, then an PhD in Eng, then decided he wanted to go to medical school, but needed a couple years of remedial coursework to fill in the blanks, then decided to go to 8 years of school to be a cardiologist.

I'm sure he'll have it made one day...when he's 50 and digs his way out of debt. His wife is doing something similar. The leak money like a sieve.


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## snickerd3 (Sep 24, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> I knew a guy my wife went to grad school with. Got a BS in eng, then an PhD in Eng, then decided he wanted to go to medical school, but needed a couple years of remedial coursework to fill in the blanks, then decided to go to 8 years of school to be a cardiologist.
> I'm sure he'll have it made one day...when he's 50 and digs his way out of debt. His wife is doing something similar. The leak money like a sieve.


professional student...i know several of those


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## Capt Worley PE (Sep 24, 2009)

I grew up with a girl who changed her major practically every year. I think after 10 years, she finally got a degree in math.


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## Flyer_PE (Sep 24, 2009)

I knew a guy in college that had changed his major from CE to ME to EE. When I graduated, he had been at it for 8 years and he still hadn't managed to get a degree in any of them.


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## Chucktown PE (Sep 24, 2009)

Thanks for the thoughts. I doubt plastic surgery is for me. I also don't really want to be a urologist or proctologist to the stars.

I have no doubt that engineering can be a very rewarding career. I have spent the last 18 months doing very unrewarding work.

I am actually going to talk to some other doctors over the next few weeks and try to get their thoughts on whether or not I should attempt something like this. I was talking to my dad last night and he said he didn't think I would like medicine at all right now. He said being a doctor has basically become a flow chart career and you can't really use a lot of judgement now. He said that basically, if the flow chart tells you to do x, then you better do x whether you think it is the right thing to do or not, if not then someone will sue the pants off of you. The specialties where this doesn't hold true are extremely competitive and

Anyway, last night I was thinking that was going to probably sign up for the biology and the organic chemistry and see what happens as there is very little risk there and I wouldn't really have to make a decision for a while. Then, while I was walking the dog I started doing the math. I wouldn't start medical school until I'm 31, finish when I'm 35, then 6 years of residency/fellowship. That would make me 41 by the time I started making money again. Admittedly it would be a lot of money but my son would be 15 years old. So I will be MIA for the majority of his childhood?

Now, in my opinion, there is no future in doing something I don't like. As big of a douche bag as Donald Trump is, one thing that he said has always stuck with me, 'if you aren't doing something you love you will never be successful.' I need to find something I love doing, maybe there is a promotion in my future that will help, maybe I need to focus on my part time boat salvage business and try to turn it into a full time operation.

I was talking to one of my younger brothers last night and he basically said he has three reasons for continuing on in his career (he has a ME degree and sells engineering software) 1) he has fun doing it/like it 2) he's making money 3) he's learning something. So none of those work for me right now. IMHO, the money in engineering sucks. I'm making $81k a year right now and based on what my boss is making, I may end up at $140k in 10 to 15 years. I don't see any future in that. I think medical school/being a doctor would satisfy all the criteria but maybe there is something engineering related that could do this as well.


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## Capt Worley PE (Sep 24, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> Now, in my opinion, there is no future in doing something I don't like. As big of a douche bag as Donald Trump is, one thing that he said has always stuck with me, 'if you aren't doing something you love you will never be successful.'


Bull.

Crap.

I know plenty of successful people who don't particularly enjoy their jobs.

If you have to provide for you family by enduring a little dissatisfaction, so be it. If it really sucks, find another job. I just don't see reason to throw all that time and money away.



Chucktown PE said:


> I'm making $81k a year right now and based on what my boss is making, I may end up at $140k in 10 to 15 years. I don't see any future in that.


Cry me a river.

Are you sure it isn't all about the money?


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## Chucktown PE (Sep 24, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Bull.Crap.
> 
> I know plenty of successful people who don't particularly enjoy their jobs.
> 
> If you have to provide for you family by enduring a little dissatisfaction, so be it. If it really sucks, find another job. I just don't see reason to throw all that time and money away.


I don't think you understand what I'm saying.

And I doubt that those people are as successful as people who love what they do.



Capt Worley PE said:


> Cry me a river.
> Are you sure it isn't all about the money?


Money is definitely a concern, but going to medical school would probably end up costing more money than it paid, so no, medical school is not about money.

If I were making decent money and didn't love what I was doing that would be one thing, at least I would be able to spend that money doing things I love in my free time. But making mediocre money and not loving what I do totally sucks.

Edit: I'm not crying or whining, I'm trying to do something about it. I'll refrain from making any more posts on here if that is what this is perceived as. I was simply trying to get some advice from other engineers. I was under the impression that was the point of this site.


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## Capt Worley PE (Sep 24, 2009)

Chuck, I don't know the circumstances of your youth, but 81K is a LOT of money. There are a LOT of poeple who make nowhere near that.

And people who love there job AND are successful are very few and far between.

I am really not trying to be ugly. You have it very good. I think you might have lost sight of that.


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## Ble_PE (Sep 24, 2009)

I have to agree with Captain on this one. I don't know many people that live in the SE who would complain making 81K a year when they are 29. That is far from mediocre pay. But I do concede that you need to enjoy what you are doing to make it worthwhile. I don't know of any job that wouldn't annoy you at times, but you need to find one that you like most of the time.


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## Chucktown PE (Sep 24, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Chuck, I don't know the circumstances of your youth, but 81K is a LOT of money. There are a LOT of poeple who make nowhere near that.


When you have two kids, a wife that doesn't work, and live in Charleston, $81k doesn't go very far. We aren't saving any money. We just break even every month.

My parents are wealthy, I know that now but didn't know it when I was young and we (me and my brothers) didn't grow up thinking that we were. Being able to pay for retirement and/or school for my children seems to be an impossibility at this point.



Capt Worley PE said:


> And people who love there job AND are successful are very few and far between.


Maybe so, but I know plenty of successful people that love their jobs, and I'm not one of them.



Capt Worley PE said:


> I am really not trying to be ugly. You have it very good. I think you might have lost sight of that.


I agree that I have a good life, not arguing there, but right now my career is not very rewarding, financially or from a personal fulfillment standpoint.


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## EM_PS (Sep 24, 2009)

chucktown, i am still curious as to what it is about the medical profession that has such a strong pull for you? After achieving a significant accomplishment academically (masters degree), you were interested back then in jumping into medical school. . .do you have doctors in your family tree? I'm just trying to understand a little bit the 'fire in your belly' for pursuing med school &amp; doctoring up. You're clearly burnt out on what you do now, although financially its decent. . . but there are just a host of other opportunities out there with no where near the financial or temporal investment of pursuing an M.D. -


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## Guest (Sep 24, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> When you have two kids, a wife that doesn't work, and live in Charleston, $81k doesn't go very far.


How much mroe money do you see as necessary to go the distance you are seeking? Does going to medical school bring you to that point? Could that same point be accomplished via a different job, different lifestyle, other changes?



Chucktown PE said:


> We aren't saving any money. We just break even every month.


I happen to be in the same boat and if you polled this board, an honest answer would probably be close to AT LEAST 80%. We are living in hard economic times ... it is hard to live and save under those conditions even with better-than-modest salaries.



Chucktown PE said:


> My parents are wealthy, I know that now but didn't know it when I was young and we (me and my brothers) didn't grow up thinking that we were. Being able to pay for retirement and/or school for my children seems to be an impossibility at this point.


Continuing the thought above - have you considered that accomplishing those goals *IS* an impossibility for our generation? The idea of wealth and what we can offer as salaries are stagnating yet the price of goods and especially college education are escalating make it VERY hard to account for things that in previous genearations seemed to be almost a given.

I ask because I have MANY friends who are vetting this process as they are addressing things that hit us in middle-age: sending kids to college, the occasional illness, taking care of parents, and taking care of other 'big ticket' items. These things happen and don't leave you in a very good place ... that's sometimes what life offers up and the way we meet these challenges (or accept the limitations that come) has to come with a modicum of acceptance (or resigation).



Chucktown PE said:


> I agree that I have a good life, not arguing there, but right now my career is not very rewarding, financially or from a personal fulfillment standpoint.


I think you are right in thinking about changes especially if you are unhappy - I think what most of the posters are asking: given the investment-to-date of time, materials, money towards your existing education/experience, is there some way to actually build on that in a way that isn't going to take away another +/- 10 yrs on pursuits you are fully sure will achieve your goals. Nobody is suggesting that you should just take it endzone for no gain; however, you should be honest with yourself about what you want whether it is financial gain, job satisifaction, family time, etc.

JR


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## Fudgey (Sep 24, 2009)

> When you have two kids, a wife that doesn't work, and live in Charleston, $81k doesn't go very far. We aren't saving any money. We just break even every month.


Sounds like someboy needs a bailout!


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## Sschell (Sep 24, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> "Hell yes Chucktown is nuts."


:withstupid:


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## Road Guy (Sep 24, 2009)

IMO thats pretty drastic Chuck. My brother in law is a doctor (so is his wife) they are "patient" people (not patience) but they have found that in all reality, the RN's take care of the patients and doctors go from room to room and such without doing what they thought they would be doing, they dont make an insane amount of money though, but I knew both these people before they went to med school and I honestly dont think they went in just for the money.

I would just give it some time, I think I said this before but there is a big difference in someone with 5 years on the other side of their PE than right after they get their PE (I cant recall how long you have had yours) in civil engineering I think there is a need (real or not) for people to like at least a little grey hair on their engineers.

If you cant look around to find something that makes it a little more likeable then maybe switch to a different sector, bigger firm, smaller firm, etc.

Of course if I am writing a business plan to get a loan to buy a dive shop (or thats what I was doing before I was working 18 hours a day with the flood) so you may want to disregard all above


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## GTjoy (Sep 24, 2009)

I might be in the minority but I don't think you're crazy. I say go for it if your family is not holding you back.

I can actually relate some. I used to think I would end up in med school and I still sometimes wonder about it. I'm still pretty sure I'm not really suited to be a doctor (and I'm happy that I'm an engineer) but I know if I would have been able to survive the path to getting to be a doctor, it would still have been rewarding.

This is not just a passing fancy for you (heck, it's totally normal to wonder what it would like to be a doctor or astronaut, or even a monarch or rice farmer). You are serious, you have the drive to do it, and I'm sure you have the skills. You even have the means to do it (compared to some folks), though budgets will be tight.

Keep in mind just because you go for it does not mean you'll pass the MCAT, get into a good school, survive med school, pass your boards (4 of them I think), get placed/matched to a residency, etc.... But since you are really serious about it and have made some preparations I think you should go for it.

Just ensure that you are doing other things to prepare, such as:

- make sure your wife is supportive and willing to work to supplement the income

- make sure you have a decently padded emergency/savings fund to help you make it in case your wife loses her job too.

- spend some time volunteering and serving the sick, elderly, and/or shadowing a doctor in a specialty you're interested in... so you have a better glimpse of what it's like to be around folks like this all the time. (see if you can incorporate with engineering, even... for example you could go on medical or dental missions trip with a church or service group, and help with building an orphanage or clinic. check out engineers without borders or engineering ministries international too...)

Anyway, that's just my two cents.

P.S. when my bro was in med school he said he met folks from all walks of life, not just young people fresh out of college. He met a former judge! I never asked if that guy finished med school though.


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## csb (Sep 25, 2009)

I have a friend who just graduated med school...and has $200K in debt. He's single and glad that he is, because his married friends struggled the whole way through. One doctor he's working with in Residency is already talking divorce with her husband. He's making $12 an hour living just outside of Boston. I echo what everyone else has said...this has to be absolutely what you want to do, because the demands of med school are huge and the payoff just simply isn't there financially.


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## MA_PE (Sep 25, 2009)

csb said:


> I have a friend who just graduated med school...and has $200K in debt. He's single and glad that he is, because his married friends struggled the whole way through. One doctor he's working with in Residency is already talking divorce with her husband. He's making $12 an hour living just outside of Boston. I echo what everyone else has said...this has to be absolutely what you want to do, because the demands of med school are huge and the payoff just simply isn't there financially.


What hospital near Boston? I don't want to trust my health to some guy who just graduated med school and is making $12/hour.

PS it's impossible to "live" just outside of Boston making $12/hour. He may have shelter and not be homeless but he ain't "living".


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Sep 25, 2009)

> What hospital near Boston? I don't want to trust my health to some guy who just graduated med school and is making $12/hour.


Seriously! I'm glad I had my foot operations in Worcester, which falls outside the 'just outside' category.


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## Dleg (Sep 25, 2009)

I think csb said it was the doctor's husband that was making $12/hour, not the doctor?


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## Guest (Sep 25, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> Seriously! I'm glad I had my foot operations in Worcester, which falls outside the 'just outside' category.


rlyflag:

Ex Mrs JR was from Lowell ... just a little further down the street ... scary place!

JR


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## csb (Sep 26, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> Seriously! I'm glad I had my foot operations in Worcester, which falls outside the 'just outside' category.


The doctor is the one making $12/hour and he's at UMass in Worcester. Kinda the same way we all make crap money when we first start, he makes crap money. He's hoping to pay off his loans in many years. He's still got some other loan out that makes it possible for him to make ends meet. There are so many costs that went into him becoming a doctor that were over and beyond tuition...when he interviewed for residencies, a lot of the travel was on his own dime. Just to apply for residencies cost hundreds of dollars. All this was coupled with him not being allowed to work an outside job, so basically he lived on loans. This was after having been a full ride undergrad and getting scholarships during medical school. It's just a lot of money.

Ahem...and I know this is political thing, but his residency in emergency medicine means he mostly treats drug addicts, uninsured, and illegal immigrants. For every real emergency case, he does a lot of free clinic type of stuff.


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## CivE Bricky (Oct 2, 2009)

Chucktown -

Beyond a doubt, you need a different job with a different emphasis.

I think there's lots of good discussion here. JR said much of what I wanted to say - and quite well.

I agree there's more going on with you than a burning desire to be a doc.

I agree you need to know way more about what medicine really is before you decide whether to go that route...

I think there's something about missed expectations related to income, lifestyle, doing better than parents (maybe), having a stay-at-home parent, etc. that may not add up in the exact place you're living now - but would add up elsewhere. Medical school is going to be a minimum of 6-7 years of far worse financial issues than you have now....and no guarantee of a relatively quick way to dig out of medical school debt once it's over.

I recommend more thinking and investigation - you haven't convinced me that you're drawn to medicine, but more that you're trying to escape from something else.

Good luck sorting it out!

-Brick


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## CivE Bricky (Oct 2, 2009)

Chucktown -

Beyond a doubt, you need a different job with a different emphasis.

I think there's lots of good discussion here. JR said much of what I wanted to say - and quite well.

I agree there's more going on with you than a burning desire to be a doc.

I agree you need to know way more about what medicine really is before you decide whether to go that route...

I think there's something about missed expectations related to income, lifestyle, doing better than parents (maybe), having a stay-at-home parent, etc. that may not add up in the exact place you're living now - but would add up elsewhere. Medical school is going to be a minimum of 6-7 years of far worse financial issues than you have now....and no guarantee of a relatively quick way to dig out of medical school debt once it's over.

I recommend more thinking and investigation - you haven't convinced me that you're drawn to medicine, but more that you're trying to escape from something else.

Good luck sorting it out!

-Brick


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## Chucktown PE (Jul 29, 2010)

So I wasted another year on this and I'm back in the same place. I can't seem to shake the desire and I feel like time is running out for me. My job sucks even more now than it did a year ago. After talking to doctors, even the ones that told me not to do it, I am now trying to sign up for a biology course and an organic chemistry course this fall. I'll have to take another biology and organic chemistry in the spring and I'm going to study for the MCAT for the next year and try to take it at the end of next summer, along with brushing up on my general chemistry, which I haven't had in 10 years. That will mean that I could possibly enroll in medical school when I'm almost 32 (Fall of 2012) and I'll be 36 when I get out, 40 - 42 by the time I start making decent money again. Oh well, that's better than being miserable for the next 30 years.


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## Paul S (Jul 29, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> So I wasted another year on this and I'm back in the same place. I can't seem to shake the desire and I feel like time is running out for me. My job sucks even more now than it did a year ago. After talking to doctors, even the ones that told me not to do it, I am now trying to sign up for a biology course and an organic chemistry course this fall. I'll have to take another biology and organic chemistry in the spring and I'm going to study for the MCAT for the next year and try to take it at the end of next summer, along with brushing up on my general chemistry, which I haven't had in 10 years. That will mean that I could possibly enroll in medical school when I'm almost 32 (Fall of 2012) and I'll be 36 when I get out, 40 - 42 by the time I start making decent money again. Oh well, that's better than being miserable for the next 30 years.



You can do it Chuck!  Good luck!


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## Master slacker (Jul 29, 2010)

When are you going to accept the fact you'll be called "Dr. Jellyfinger"? uke:


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## cdcengineer (Jul 29, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> So I wasted another year on this and I'm back in the same place. I can't seem to shake the desire and I feel like time is running out for me. My job sucks even more now than it did a year ago. After talking to doctors, even the ones that told me not to do it, I am now trying to sign up for a biology course and an organic chemistry course this fall. I'll have to take another biology and organic chemistry in the spring and I'm going to study for the MCAT for the next year and try to take it at the end of next summer, along with brushing up on my general chemistry, which I haven't had in 10 years. That will mean that I could possibly enroll in medical school when I'm almost 32 (Fall of 2012) and I'll be 36 when I get out, 40 - 42 by the time I start making decent money again. Oh well, that's better than being miserable for the next 30 years.


Chuck - you gotta try and be happy.

Yeah, you might be nuts, and you sound like a guy I used to work with, but happiness is key.

Good Luck


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## benbo (Jul 29, 2010)

2012? Isn't that around the time the USA as we know it is going to cease to exist? Won't that have any impact on your plans?

Seriously, just take your classes and see how you like them. That's not really that big of a commitment to start out with.

I took a year of O chem and a couple biology courses when I started out in school, and shortly after that became a drunken hippy and dropped out of school for a while. O Chem is a pain and completely boring IMO. Plus the class will probably be full of a bunch of annoying, cutthroat pre-med kids. But I don't think that it necessarily has much to do with what doctors actually do.


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## Master slacker (Jul 29, 2010)

benbo said:


> But I don't think that it necessarily has much to do with what doctors actually do.


Kinda like differential equations for us?


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## Slugger926 (Jul 29, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> So I wasted another year on this and I'm back in the same place. I can't seem to shake the desire and I feel like time is running out for me. My job sucks even more now than it did a year ago. After talking to doctors, even the ones that told me not to do it, I am now trying to sign up for a biology course and an organic chemistry course this fall. I'll have to take another biology and organic chemistry in the spring and I'm going to study for the MCAT for the next year and try to take it at the end of next summer, along with brushing up on my general chemistry, which I haven't had in 10 years. That will mean that I could possibly enroll in medical school when I'm almost 32 (Fall of 2012) and I'll be 36 when I get out, 40 - 42 by the time I start making decent money again. Oh well, that's better than being miserable for the next 30 years.



That is the exact same reason I went back to grad school for an engineering management degree, and now 1 year out from finishing an MBA. Have you thought about launching something on your own, and maybe taking an Small Business Entrepreneurship with possibly a Corporate Entrepreneurship class to help guide you? Marketing, organizational theory, and a few other classes will help as well. You can hire out the accounting and legal on an as needed basis.

My wife, an RN, didn't want me to go to medical school even though I could get in easily at Oklahoma State. I will be 40 in September, and would love to launch my own company as soon as I finish this MBA. The successful doctors I know have business degrees too, and launch their own clinics, and grow their business.

On another note, have you considered the BSN degree, becoming a nurse, then finding a distance learning or local MS in Nursing program to become a nurse practitioner? The nurse practitioners make nearly as much as the doctors with less intern and clinical time, and less headaches.

Good luck with your decision. Let us know what kind of stuff we can engineer to start a biomedical company.


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## Dleg (Jul 29, 2010)

.... you should still consider federal service..... The health care bill provides for 800 fully-funded medical degrees per year, provided you commit to 2 years service in the US Public Health Service for every year of education that is paid for. Not sure it's been funded yet, but the mechanism is in place. By the time you finish your chem and biology classes, it will probably be open for business.

If you just want the caduceus on your collar, you could bypass all the schooling and join the USPHS right now and put all that wastewater engineering skill to work on a deserving indian reservation somewhere (probably not even on the rez itself, at your level of skill - you'd be in a more centralized office serving multiple reservations). Of course, the hiring process is a little messed up right now, but it will probably be sorted out by the time you get through the application process.


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## AN_US (Aug 8, 2010)

Hi Chucktown! Remember me?

Your post reminds me of a joke that ends like this:

"Hey! Some asshole has my pen!"


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 9, 2010)

AN_US, how's it going you old stinker? Haven't heard a toot from you in ages. Where ya been?


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## Master slacker (Aug 9, 2010)

Probably just been farting around.


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## ElCid03 (Aug 9, 2010)

That's certainly a tough one but MUSC is a great school. If it's still bothering you a year later then you're right it will bother you for the rest of your life. Go for it!


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 20, 2010)

Sorry to dredge this up, but rather than starting a new thread I thought I'd mention that I have had another opportunity fall in my lap this week. I had a startup equipment manufacturer call me about coming to work for them as one of their application/sales engineers.

It sounds like it could be hugely lucrative and there would be an ability to buy into the business. It could also be incredibly risky. I'm not going to mention the company's name but now I'm debating whether I should try this.


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## Dleg (Aug 20, 2010)

The only engineer I know who truly makes "fatty money" did so by becoming a sales engineer in the industry he used to work in as a "regular engineer". But, you've got to pretty good at being a people person to keep it up without burning out fast.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 20, 2010)

Dleg said:


> The only engineer I know who truly makes "fatty money" did so by becoming a sales engineer in the industry he used to work in as a "regular engineer". But, you've got to pretty good at being a people person to keep it up without burning out fast.



So he had an airplane and a girlfriend that would let him do things to her that are illegal in some states? Whatelse qualified him as making fatty money?

j/k

Believe it or not from my posts, but I am a people person. I do really well talking to people. And since this is a startup, it sounds like I'd be doing the technical sales part of it for a while, but then I'd get to do some product development type stuff as well.


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## Dleg (Aug 20, 2010)

Yes, he truly does own a plane. He's married, though, and I won't speculate as to what his wife allows him to do.


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## Flyer_PE (Aug 20, 2010)

The company I work for has less than 30 full time employees. My brother's wife thinks it's risky as all hell because it's a small company. I feel a lot more secure here than I ever did working for either the utility or the medium sized AE. My reasoning is that the only job security that exists is what you have to offer your _next_ employer. Even if there is risk of the company not surviving, for me, that risk might be offset by experience and marketability gained.


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## ElCid03 (Aug 22, 2010)

^Well said!


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