# PE and Money



## Butter

I know there are a lot of threads about money that have been around for a long time. But I'm kind of weird and believe in firing up a new thread rather than going back to one that just won't die.

Anyway, I passed the Oct 2013 PE exam. I work for an Arch/ Engr firm in the Energy Services department. I have a few other certifications, CxA, CEM, BEMP. Oh and I have an MBA. I'm currently at about $55k. I have a meeting to discuss a pay bump soon... I'm pretty sure I'm under paid right now. I really like my company, but want to be properly compensated.

What pay range should I look for in the negotiation?

Do most people get a percentage pay bump or do you look for a certain number.

Thanks for any help.


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## Mike in Gastonia

I have an opinion in one of the previous threads........

That's what's nice about this type of message board. You don't have to start new threads all the time.


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## Blink

You have a Mechanical Engineering degree, and enough experience to take and pass he PE and you are making $55k a year? I think that is extremely low and unreasonable, maybe you should do some checking around and see what other types of offers you can get in your area, then decide if you like your company enough to turn down an extra $20k. Just my 2 cents.


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## Butter

Blink said:


> You have a Mechanical Engineering degree, and enough experience to take and pass he PE and you are making $55k a year? I think that is extremely low and unreasonable, maybe you should do some checking around and see what other types of offers you can get in your area, then decide if you like your company enough to turn down an extra $20k. Just my 2 cents.






Well I was at $44k a year ago. Again very low I know, but took a job in the middle of the recession when I needed it. I was there for two years. $55k was a big jump then, but I know it wasn't correct.

Either way, at $55k I figured I was due for more than a 5% bump. Plus extra certifications and an MBA I would hope should make me a little more valuable.


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## engrstructural11

55k is nothing. Drafters at my firm make 57k-60k a year.


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## majormajor

I have found this website to be eerily accurate. Off the top of my head, though, assuming some years of experience plus your certs:

0-2 years

www.engineersalary.com


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## majormajor

Accidental post

0-2 years $65k

2-5 years $80k

5-7 years $95k

etc.


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## ecruz010

People, you have to remember that we all live in different states. Someone mentioned that he knows drafters making 60k. I work for an engineering firm in Florida and I've never met a drafter making that much, but I'm pretty sure that in states where cost of living is much higher than in FL(CA, NY) that could be common.

How many years of experience do you have Butter?


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## kalvinjk

Butter,

I work as an energy engineer for an energy services company and I can tell you that I started with the company right out of school with a little more than where you're currently at.

You should look for another spot.


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## engrstructural11

ecruz010 said:


> People, you have to remember that we all live in different states. Someone mentioned that he knows drafters making 60k. I work for an engineering firm in Florida and I've never met a drafter making that much, but I'm pretty sure that in states where cost of living is much higher than in FL(CA, NY) that could be common.
> 
> How many years of experience do you have Butter?


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## engrstructural11

I work in Nebraska with a low cost of leaving. Drafters at my firm make what I said. Granted they have a lot of experience but still. 50-60k is the rate.


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## kpf

55k sounds fairly low. Definitely look around!


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## Butter

Well, I know I've been under compensated. I'm going to use this as an opportunity to adjust that. I really don't want to go shopping for new work, but



ecruz010 said:


> People, you have to remember that we all live in different states. Someone mentioned that he knows drafters making 60k. I work for an engineering firm in Florida and I've never met a drafter making that much, but I'm pretty sure that in states where cost of living is much higher than in FL(CA, NY) that could be common.
> 
> How many years of experience do you have Butter?



I have 4 yrs of experience in Energy Services. Before that I was in manufacturing for 3 yrs. No actual HVAC design though.

I'm located in a southern mid-sized (300k) town. There is decent competition here for PEs.

I really don't want to job shop, but I do want to be fairly compensated. And I think this is my best time to make that adjustment.


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## majormajor

If you have changed industries multiple times and have little experience in the job you are currently in, then $55k might not be far off. Ecruz is right that the city you are in really matters here. Also, an MBA does not make you a much better junior engineer. That will be a much bigger asset when you move into project management or higher.


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## kalvinjk

I started with no experience in energy services with a slightly higher base. Now I'm considered mid/senior level after 4.5 years experience (with CEM and now PE). I live in Florida and I make 15-20% more than where you are at right now. So that gives you a perspective of where you should be.

My boss also said the PE will enable a promotion to senior level much quicker (increase of 10-15%).


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## solomonb

Factual data comes from the NSPE 2013 Annual Salary Survey. Here is some data that may assist you in your quest for more money.

Exhibit 7 of the NSPE report, page 9 shows an engineer with 7-9 years of experience has an median annual income of $73, 082.

Exhibit 8-- Page 10 shows the median salary of an engineer with an MBA at $115,000.

Exhibit 14, page 15 shows the median salary of a mechanical engineer as $101,508.

Now, the survey data is just that-- I cannot parse it any finer-- my point is that I would build a chart using the NSPE data when you go argue for more money. In fact, I did that for a colleague-- using all of the charts that were applicable to him-- he goes and sees the man next week.

Geographic location, as is stated earlier has a bearing on how much you get. Job responsibility is also a factor.

The MBA is a wash-- yes, it is of value, but if it is not from one of the top 10 MBA schools--(Harvard, Stanford, Chicago, Wharton, etc), then it really is not that valuable. I know, hard to take, but a real fact in today's world. Yes, you learned something from the experience and it may be a great value-- however, MBA's are very plentiful-- however, you should identify that as a value add for your pointed haired boss when you go see him.

If I was going to argue for a raise, I would certainly build me a comprehensive chart using the NSPE 2013 salary survey data, present it and let the pointy haired boss refute it. He will, however, now you have hard facts to argue with--again, the survey data is compiled-- so parsing it down fine is not an option-- however, looks to me that your $55,000 might be low.

I would do some due diligence-- i.e, talk to the boys at the state NSPE chapter meeting in your city, poke around a little on the web, build an airtight case for what you want-- add 20% and then go argue. If you have to concede 20%, you are right where you want to be. Another point we always tell our clients is that the cost of recruiting your replacement is worth your salary-- if you make $55,000, going to find your replacement will cost that amount-- time, travel, wine;dine, etc.

If you need more help-- we can do that also.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE

I really think the area where you work has a lot to do with what you make. I don't have my PE yet, but I have a BSME and have been working for 8 years in engineering. I had ~ 2 years non engineering work after graduating almost 10 yrs ago. I currently make a six figure salary.


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## ArcherCat

It's often much easier to move up salary wise by starting fresh at a new job. I can't see a company who is paying you 55, all the sudden paying you 75. Would you even want that? I would want a company the pays a fair salary in exchange for my services.


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## chiko

55 is way low. You need to move


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## Engr2004

Thanks for everyone's insight.

Should I expect a true negotiation or more of a notification of a new pay?


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## bassplayer45

Our company has a set policy. You pass the PE, you get a set raise and the same bonus. I consider myself pretty under paid


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## NJmike PE

Unlicensed, I gross between 61k - 62k per year, depending on OT. I hope that a license brings in more.


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## Packman

Civil Drafter/tech/designer 2001-2006

School full time - 2006-2008

Job with BSCE - 2008-present

Current salary is ~58k

Hoping to reach mid 60s with raise or I will start looking elsewhere. (PE with 10yrs exp)


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## emeschew

Recently licesned, with 5 years experience, I got a $500 bonus and no raise so far. Currently make around $54k. Just found out a new grad/hire was offered around $50k...

I know I started out low when I graduated; between the small business factor and crappy economy I had no recourse at the time.

My yearly review is coming up. Depending on how it goes, I may shop around to see what I'm worth.


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## Distant Thunder

Worked as a tech for 10 years then went back to school for mechE. Was paid 38k as a tech. I started in machine design (small company) at 42k after graduating in 2006, changed over to petroleum industry in 2010. Now I gross around $105 as an engineer 1 (there are 5 levels and 1 is the lowest). I hope the p.e helps me get promoted to 2, thogh it is mostly polical. There is a pay scale for each level and i am still 9k from the top of mine.


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## PSU09Vet

My company's policy is a set weekly pay increase. Every person who passes their PE gets the same thing. No bonus. Civil Engineering firm doing business in the H20/Env/Hwy fields.


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## Distant Thunder

Weekly pay increase must be nice.


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## cajone5

majormajor said:


> I have found this website to be eerily accurate. Off the top of my head, though, assuming some years of experience plus your certs:
> 
> 0-2 years
> 
> www.engineersalary.com




Where do you put in your license(s)? I see experience and degrees but not any input for PE and/or SE?


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## bluewing823

NJmike said:


> Unlicensed, I gross between 61k - 62k per year, depending on OT. I hope that a license brings in more.




I am water resources as well, and I am currently making 60K excluding OT or around 64K including all the OTs this year. For my company, the PE license bumps you up to the next title and the raise is just for the title upgrade, which is 2 - 3%. But with the title update, you won't get the 1.5x rate for overtime anymore. In fact, you have to work at least 44hours AFTER subtracting out all the meeting/non-project time to qualify for overtime. Anything less is volunteer work. So, if you work a lot of overtime, the title upgrade actually works against you.

Anyone else in the water field? How much do you guys get?


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## jarrowsm

bluewing823 said:


> NJmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unlicensed, I gross between 61k - 62k per year, depending on OT. I hope that a license brings in more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am water resources as well, and I am currently making 60K excluding OT or around 64K including all the OTs this year. For my company, the PE license bumps you up to the next title and the raise is just for the title upgrade, which is 2 - 3%. But with the title update, you won't get the 1.5x rate for overtime anymore. In fact, you have to work at least 44hours AFTER subtracting out all the meeting/non-project time to qualify for overtime. Anything less is volunteer work. So, if you work a lot of overtime, the title upgrade actually works against you.
> 
> Anyone else in the water field? How much do you guys get?
Click to expand...



I feel like, if you want to really compare, you should include

1) Where you live

2) What your education is

3) How many years experience

at the very least...

I'm in the DC metro area working in water resources, with a Bachelor's degree (halfway through my master's), 4.5 year's experience. I'm currently in the mid 60s (probably around $64k factoring in occasional OT), but with phenomenal benefits.

I _really _like where I work and it made things easier for getting through the PE exam by staying with the same company for all of my experience. Should, I pass, I will 1) try to negotiate a salary increase- a quick look at salary data leads me to believe I am paid below market value, and 2) start shopping around.

I think I'm leaving some salary on the table and that's a good reason to look around...but more importantly, I think other companies may be able to offer me better project experience more in line with my long term interests. At this stage in my career, building up my resume is a higher priority.


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## FLH20

I'm in water resources (4.5 years out of school) currently at $63k. I'm told I will be getting a raise with the PE just not sure how much yet...


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## bluewing823

jarrowsm said:


> bluewing823 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NJmike said:
> 
> 
> 
> Unlicensed, I gross between 61k - 62k per year, depending on OT. I hope that a license brings in more.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am water resources as well, and I am currently making 60K excluding OT or around 64K including all the OTs this year. For my company, the PE license bumps you up to the next title and the raise is just for the title upgrade, which is 2 - 3%. But with the title update, you won't get the 1.5x rate for overtime anymore. In fact, you have to work at least 44hours AFTER subtracting out all the meeting/non-project time to qualify for overtime. Anything less is volunteer work. So, if you work a lot of overtime, the title upgrade actually works against you.
> 
> Anyone else in the water field? How much do you guys get?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> I feel like, if you want to really compare, you should include
> 
> 1) Where you live
> 
> 2) What your education is
> 
> 3) How many years experience
> 
> at the very least...
> 
> I'm in the DC metro area working in water resources, with a Bachelor's degree (halfway through my master's), 4.5 year's experience. I'm currently in the mid 60s (probably around $64k factoring in occasional OT), but with phenomenal benefits.
> 
> I _really _like where I work and it made things easier for getting through the PE exam by staying with the same company for all of my experience. Should, I pass, I will 1) try to negotiate a salary increase- a quick look at salary data leads me to believe I am paid below market value, and 2) start shopping around.
> 
> I think I'm leaving some salary on the table and that's a good reason to look around...but more importantly, I think other companies may be able to offer me better project experience more in line with my long term interests. At this stage in my career, building up my resume is a higher priority.
Click to expand...



I am in AL, with a Master's, has 3.5 years of experience, and just got my PE. 60K is without the PE factored in.


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## Jdsmith PE

FLH20 said:


> I'm in water resources (4.5 years out of school) currently at $63k. I'm told I will be getting a raise with the PE just not sure how much yet...




I've seen newly minted Water Resources PEs making $65K - $75K from private firms down here. Depending on how much "Volunteer" work you are willing to do.


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## jarrowsm

Engr2004 said:


> Thanks for everyone's insight.
> 
> Should I expect a true negotiation or more of a notification of a new pay?




You shouldn't be afraid to be proactive. There is no good reason against initiating your own negotiation. Worst they can do is say no- and if you make a strong case, it's difficult to imagine they would take any offense. Anyway, remember it's your career, and you are in charge of where you work and what happens to you.

If you're looking for an environment with regular time/experienced based raises, then the public sector (or a very large company) may be a good fit for you.


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## FLH20

jdsmith6 said:


> FLH20 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm in water resources (4.5 years out of school) currently at $63k. I'm told I will be getting a raise with the PE just not sure how much yet...
> 
> 
> 
> I've seen newly minted Water Resources PEs making $65K - $75K from private firms down here. Depending on how much "Volunteer" work you are willing to do.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right...I'd be happy to crack 70k...time will tell


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## cupojoe PE PMP

We likely won't get a specific raise, but it does open the door for promotions that wouldn't be possible otherwise (since you would have to stamp drawings). In the past they have taken folks out to the Brazilian Steakhouse for a congratulatory dinner. Also, I through a happy hour when I got my results and the company covered it.


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## Packman

To follow Jar's standards and add a few more: (concentration, current salary prior to PE)

1.) Piedmont of North Carolina

2.) BSCE

3.) 10 years as tech and designer

4.) Construction/Land Development/Utilities

5.) ~58k


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## sunshine809

-SF Bay Area

-BS and MS in Civil

-2.5 yrs exp

-68k without a PE


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## John QPE

we just hired 2 kids fresh out of college, they know nothing, they are getting $58K


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## Distant Thunder

Industry and location.

Petroleum Engineers are hired at my company making 86K + 20% bonus.

After they 'prove' themselves over a one year period they receive 4K raise.


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## wizfan1984

- Washington DC Area

- BS in Mech. E

- 7 years experience (Engineering Consulting)

- 90K without PE


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## cajone5

1) Austin, TX

2) BS Civil, MS Structural, ~1/2 way through Ph.D. in Civil (part-time)

3) 3 years pre-grad experience (co-ops and internships) in research, bridge inspection, drafting and structural engineering

5 years post-grad experience in specialized structural engineering field (defense related)

4) 70k prior and post PE... waiting on results of my SE (already passed vertical, waiting on lateral)

Anyone have any thoughts on whether my pay is commensurate with my experience? engineersalary.com puts my expected salary right in line with 70k without consideration of my additional pre-grad experience, partial completion of Ph.D. and PE and (hopefully) SE licenses.

Any input or thoughts would be greatly appreciated?


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## Wesson9

I don't know what commensurate means. All kidding aside, I really think location is the driving factor. I'm in northern VA ( DC area). 5 years experience with no PE and I make 81k. If I were in a cheaper location I'm sure my salary would reflect that. From what I've seen most companies in a given area offer fairly similar compensation packages.


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## Distant Thunder

You can do a PhD part time?


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## Distant Thunder

what school does that?


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## nasasurfer

- Hampton, VA

- BS Mechanical Engineering - Virginia Tech

- 5 years work experience at NASA for a design/construction firm

- Currently make 100k with no PE

I took the exam this October and am waiting for the results like everyone else. I took the Mechanical HVAC &amp; Refrigeration section.


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## cajone5

Distant Thunder said:


> what school does that?




It's more a matter of my employer being flexible with my time than the school having a part-time program per se. I'm at University of Texas at Austin. As far as I know I'm the only person who has ever even attempted it there  Basically I take 1 class a semester and work on a research project through my job (although there's been a lot of hurdles with that so far). It requires a lot of discipline with my time but it's going OK so far. And I passed my quals a couple years back so it would appear UT is cool with me doing it as they didn't use that as a way to boot me out of the program...


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## Butter

They came at me with a 5k raise. I used everyone's advice and some articles and got a 12k raise. Thanks to the board for the extra 7k.


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## Distant Thunder

That's awesome Butters!!!! Congratulations!


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## Seabushed

Phila, PA

BS Mech Eng.

6 Years HVAC/Mech. Contractor

84k , without PE


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## nasasurfer

nasasurfer said:


> - Hampton, VA
> 
> - BS Mechanical Engineering - Virginia Tech
> 
> - 5 years work experience at NASA for a design/construction firm
> 
> - Currently make 100k with no PE
> 
> I took the exam this October and am waiting for the results like everyone else. I took the Mechanical HVAC &amp; Refrigeration section.


Correction.... I now have a PE and will be asking my new employer for a raise. Expecting to get around $6-10k more now that I've passed the exam.


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## cajone5

Butter said:


> They came at me with a 5k raise. I used everyone's advice and some articles and got a 12k raise. Thanks to the board for the extra 7k.




Congrats -- what kind of articles did you present as evidence?


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## knight1fox3

Butter said:


> They came at me with a 5k raise. I used everyone's advice and some articles and got a 12k raise. Thanks to the board for the extra 7k.


Feel free to pass on a small donation to support this board that is hosted at the owner's expense. A supporting membership is a mere $25. :thumbs:


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## Butter

Article is probably too strong of a word. I used the data from EngineerSalary.com and this image I printed out from a different thread.

http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1361/z0z4.png (FYI this board sucks on IE 11. Or is it that IE just sucks?)

I also referenced pay from local competitors. I think that stuck with them the most.

Also they've tried to hire energy services folks in the past and have had a very difficult time with it. So I reminded them of that.


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## cajone5

Butter said:


> Article is probably too strong of a word. I used the data from EngineerSalary.com and this image I printed out from a different thread.
> 
> http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/1361/z0z4.png (FYI this board sucks on IE 11. Or is it that IE just sucks?)
> 
> I also referenced pay from local competitors. I think that stuck with them the most.
> 
> Also they've tried to hire energy services folks in the past and have had a very difficult time with it. So I reminded them of that.




Thanks for the response -- how did you gather intel on what other companies are offering? Job postings? Friends?


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## Butter

Friends.

Job postings is a good idea too. But I relied on friends, had some "mentor" engineers from previous jobs that I asked about it.


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## solomonb

The way that we counsel engineers seeking a raise is to build a chart from the NSPE 2013 salary survey. There is a tremendous amount of data contained in that report. We build a report that has a series of charts that are contained in the NSPE report. Interestingly, you will probably find the data is rich, but somewhat broad. As such, you can cast a wide net and use that for negotiation purposes. Our clients have had great success with this method-- you cannot argue with the data-- it is what it is. "The man" knows this data-- you need to be equally savvy so that you are both negotiating on an equal plane.


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## Ivory

Butter said:


> I know there are a lot of threads about money that have been around for a long time. But I'm kind of weird and believe in firing up a new thread rather than going back to one that just won't die.
> 
> Anyway, I passed the Oct 2013 PE exam. I work for an Arch/ Engr firm in the Energy Services department. I have a few other certifications, CxA, CEM, BEMP. Oh and I have an MBA. I'm currently at about $55k. I have a meeting to discuss a pay bump soon... I'm pretty sure I'm under paid right now. I really like my company, but want to be properly compensated.
> 
> What pay range should I look for in the negotiation?
> 
> Do most people get a percentage pay bump or do you look for a certain number.
> 
> Thanks for any help.




Use your marketing and negotiation skills learned from getting your MBA to obtain a good salary. $55K is well below entry level pay for recent engineering grads. Companies will only increase your pay enough to keep you from leaving. You should seek as much salary the market will pay you. Why are you still at your current company? You could easily double your pay elsewhere, but you may need to re-locate.


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## JMT

solomonb said:


> The way that we counsel engineers seeking a raise is to build a chart from the NSPE 2013 salary survey. There is a tremendous amount of data contained in that report. We build a report that has a series of charts that are contained in the NSPE report. Interestingly, you will probably find the data is rich, but somewhat broad. As such, you can cast a wide net and use that for negotiation purposes. Our clients have had great success with this method-- you cannot argue with the data-- it is what it is. "The man" knows this data-- you need to be equally savvy so that you are both negotiating on an equal plane.




I have seen you mention the NSPE 2013 salary survey multiple times on the boards. I found that the 'NSPE's Engineering Income and Salary Survey was permanently closed on July 31, 2013' (http://www.nspe.org/CareerCenter/SalaryInformation/index.html). Is there somewhere else the report can be accessed from?


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## cajone5

JMT said:


> solomonb said:
> 
> 
> 
> The way that we counsel engineers seeking a raise is to build a chart from the NSPE 2013 salary survey. There is a tremendous amount of data contained in that report. We build a report that has a series of charts that are contained in the NSPE report. Interestingly, you will probably find the data is rich, but somewhat broad. As such, you can cast a wide net and use that for negotiation purposes. Our clients have had great success with this method-- you cannot argue with the data-- it is what it is. "The man" knows this data-- you need to be equally savvy so that you are both negotiating on an equal plane.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen you mention the NSPE 2013 salary survey multiple times on the boards. I found that the 'NSPE's Engineering Income and Salary Survey was permanently closed on July 31, 2013' (http://www.nspe.org/CareerCenter/SalaryInformation/index.html). Is there somewhere else the report can be accessed from?
Click to expand...

Same issue for me. Cannot find this report published anywhere...


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## solomonb

I checked-- you have to get it from NSPE-- it costs $25 now. Sorry-- it was up, but they took it down.


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## solomonb

Here is some data that came out in the December 2013 PE magazine, page 4.

*Top Average Starting Salaries for Class of 2013 Bachelor's Degree Graduates*

$96,200----- Petroleum Engineering

$70,300----- Computer Engineering

$66,900----- Chemical Engineering

$64,100----- Computer Engineering

$63,900----- Aerospace/Aeronautical/Astronautical Engineering

$63,900----- Mechanical Engineering

$62,500----- Electrical/Electronics/Computer Engineering

$60,900----- Engineering Technology

$60,300----- MIS/Business

I suspect that if other disciplines are not listed, it was because they did not have any data to reflect that discipline. If one were to assume a nominal 5% pay raise per year, which may be a stretch in today's environment, one could, I believe, figure out rather accurately where they should be at 4 years of experience and taking the PE exam. In fact, I think that you could build a spreadsheet and do sensitivity analysis with various pay raise percentages to see where you should be.

Of course, this chart does not address particular locales, i.e., East Coast, West Coast, size of firm, etc. However, this is a starting solution to begin to determine where you may wish to develop an argument for a raise when you pass the PE examination.


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## knight1fox3

Wow, a petroleum engineer starting is close to 6 figures? :blink: That's impressive.


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## LADWP_WATER_ENGR

Large City owned Public Utility in Orange County, CA

7 years,

$120,000/yr

$183,000/yr with OT(Water Field Operations)

BS Civil Engineering

EIT....hoping I passed Seismic and Survey to obtain PE license....finally.


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## PSU09Vet

knight1fox3 said:


> Wow, a petroleum engineer starting is close to 6 figures? :blink: That's impressive.




A close college friend started at Shell right after graduating at around 120K or so. Now that's oil in the gulf which may be better money than gas in shale.


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## VaStruct07

BS - Civil &amp; Environmental Engineering (Structural emphasis)

MS - Structural Engineering

(Both from Virginia Tech)

4 yrs experience

Just passed PE this October. Received a $2K bonus before I had the chance to have the talk.


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## solomonb

Go have the talk. They know what you are worth and they also know that with the PE now, you are worth more than the $2000 they gave you earlier in the month. Big Boys-- Big BALLS-- go for it.


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## Distant Thunder

120k is good money, but would stink to live on a drill ship or in a man camp. I'm pretty damn happy there is shale in the backyard, and 96k is nothing to sneeze at.


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## emeschew

In case anyone is looking for another source to negotiate their salary, ASCE and ASME have a joint salary survey from 2012. It breaks down each job function, length of experience, education, industry, metro area etc... similar to NSPE's document it seems.

You can download the PDF, if you want, off of ASME's website.


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## center*ice

The website glassdoor.com has salary data which can be searched by job title and location. PE licensure, however, does not appear to be included in the data for engineering positions.


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## Packman

had the talk last Friday with my supervisor.

was told that i already make about the same as a couple other similarly qualified coworkers in our SC office (~58k). I presented all of my information from Indeed.com, Salary.com, and the ASCE salary survey, and he seemed pretty receptive about it.

He is now taking it to the COO of our division, so we will see. I would be happy with a 10% raise. I will not take on the added stress and responsibility of signing/sealing plans until I am paid accordingly. 10% would put me right near 65k per year. Am i asking too much.

(all the research i did for; my area, company size, responsibilities, etc. showed an average of $70-75k per year)


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## Butter

I asked for lower $70k and they came back with $67k which is enough to keep me around. I'm sure I can get paid more if I moved , but there is the added cost of starting over with a new firm. I'm happy with where I am, and that's really the question. Will you be happy with the offer they come back with. If you just want to maximize your $$ then you can always shop around.


----------



## PSU09Vet

Packman said:


> had the talk last Friday with my supervisor.
> 
> was told that i already make about the same as a couple other similarly qualified coworkers in our SC office (~58k). I presented all of my information from Indeed.com, Salary.com, and the ASCE salary survey, and he seemed pretty receptive about it.
> 
> He is now taking it to the COO of our division, so we will see. I would be happy with a 10% raise. I will not take on the added stress and responsibility of signing/sealing plans until I am paid accordingly. 10% would put me right near 65k per year. Am i asking too much.
> 
> (all the research i did for; my area, company size, responsibilities, etc. showed an average of $70-75k per year)




I don't know about your situation, but I don't expect to be signing anything for 12-15 years. But the simple fact we are at least allowed to sign now should give them incentive to pay us more.


----------



## Ivory

Butter said:


> I asked for lower $70k and they came back with $67k which is enough to keep me around. I'm sure I can get paid more if I moved , but there is the added cost of starting over with a new firm. I'm happy with where I am, and that's really the question. Will you be happy with the offer they come back with. If you just want to maximize your $$ then you can always shop around.




I recommend you take a class in negotiating and economics. I think you are well below market value for your services.


----------



## Butter

Ivory said:


> Butter said:
> 
> 
> 
> I asked for lower $70k and they came back with $67k which is enough to keep me around. I'm sure I can get paid more if I moved , but there is the added cost of starting over with a new firm. I'm happy with where I am, and that's really the question. Will you be happy with the offer they come back with. If you just want to maximize your $$ then you can always shop around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I recommend you take a class in negotiating and economics. I think you are well below market value for your services.
Click to expand...



What salary level would you put someone in the south? ME w/ 4 yrs experience in the industry?

I've been at a few different places in my career and am very happy with my company. I think that's worth something, but not everyone puts value on the same thing?


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

I found this salary link and it looks pretty good.

I thinking about using it next week at my review.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172071.htm


----------



## FLH20

Just got 11% raise and $2,500 bonus....it pays to take the PE exam!....was not expecting a bonus.


----------



## cajone5

BS Civil Eng - May 07

MS Structural Eng - Jan 09

PhD Civil Eng - In progress (~50% complete)

5 years post-grad experience

3 years pre-grad experience (internships, co-ops and research positions)

PE 2012

SE exams passed, getting application together

Made $70k +/- for the past 3 years at the same company. Pay raise each year has been 3% (2% cost of living increase - 1% "merit" increase). However bonuses have fallen drastically each year so I net -5% total salary each year. Got no raise for my PE. End of year reviews coming up... what should I be looking for?


----------



## tmpeng012

Tampa, FL

BSME

MBA

PE; LEED AP BD+C; ASHRAE BEAP

5+ yrs experience post BSME in current firm

Currently a project manager in a very small consulting firm in the A&amp;E industry.

55K, +paid for expensive MBA.

Finished school recently and wondering if I will get a raise.

I know I'm underpaid. Have been kept on the hook with school reimbursement as well as promises to be given ownership of the firm as well as become principal once owner retires.

I do really like working for the company, but have been contemplating if its worth the lower salary. Plus it's my first job out of college.


----------



## kalvinjk

Miami, FL

BSME

PE, CEM

4.5 years with current Fortune 500 company post grad.

I am an energy engineer (hvac analysis, equipment selection, some project management)

$70k and 5% bonus potential.

Just passed the PE exam and wondering where I stand for a promotion/raise. I am the only engineer of the group of three here that has the PE. Not really actively looking, but hate not maximizing potential earning potential.

Thoughts?


----------



## Butter

Are there a lot of Energy Services work in Florida? A CEM and BEAP from Florida post back-to-back...


----------



## tmpeng012

I'm not sure if there is any surplus of energy service work here compared to the rest of the country.

Energy audits, commissioning and the like aren't the main service that the firm I work for provides, they're more ancillary. Although I do know of two local companies that try to sell a lot of them. One of which uses them as more of a selling tool, to try to get owners to purchase their newer and more efficient equipment.

We mainly provide MEP/FP construction documents and construction admin.

I'll probably end up with the CEM and BEMP fairly soon as well. The industry seems to love certifications, who knows how many I'll eventually have. As long as my employer wants to purchase them, I'm OK with it.


----------



## Butter

tmpeng012 said:


> I'm not sure if there is any surplus of energy service work here compared to the rest of the country.
> 
> Energy audits, commissioning and the like aren't the main service that the firm I work for provides, they're more ancillary. Although I do know of two local companies that try to sell a lot of them. One of which uses them as more of a selling tool, to try to get owners to purchase their newer and more efficient equipment.
> 
> We mainly provide MEP/FP construction documents and construction admin.
> 
> I'll probably end up with the CEM and BEMP fairly soon as well. The industry seems to love certifications, who knows how many I'll eventually have. As long as my employer wants to purchase them, I'm OK with it.






Tell me about it... I've got more letters than I know what to do with. Seems almost counter productive.


----------



## kjs5055

I passed the PE this fall (Civil Engineering - Structures). I was told this morning that I wouldn't be getting a raise/promotion since our annual raises were distributed recently.

Needless to say, the news killed my productivity for the day.


----------



## Seabushed

Well did you receive a raise otherwise?


----------



## kjs5055

Yep.. I go above and beyond what is required and require little direction.


----------



## kjs5055

kjs5055 said:


> Yep.. I go above and beyond what is required and require little direction.




Sorry, I misread your question. It's been a long day. Yes, I received a raise; I think everyone did since our company distributes annual raises/increases due to cost of living at the end of the year. I was told my raise was above average based on my performance (described above); nothing was discussed about the PE since I didn't get the results yet. Now that I have the results, I was told that I just got a raise and won't get another. I guess I see annual adjustments and PE adjustments as two seperate animals.


----------



## engrstructural11

kjs5055 said:


> kjs5055 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.. I go above and beyond what is required and require little direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I misread your question. It's been a long day. Yes, I received a raise; I think everyone did since our company distributes annual raises/increases due to cost of living at the end of the year. I was told my raise was above average based on my performance (described above); nothing was discussed about the PE since I didn't get the results yet. Now that I have the results, I was told that I just got a raise and won't get another. I guess I see annual adjustments and PE adjustments as two seperate animals.
Click to expand...

They should be separate. I just received a 10% PE raise and was told that this was independent from mid year raises.


----------



## PJ3346

engrstructural11 said:


> kjs5055 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> kjs5055 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yep.. I go above and beyond what is required and require little direction.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, I misread your question. It's been a long day. Yes, I received a raise; I think everyone did since our company distributes annual raises/increases due to cost of living at the end of the year. I was told my raise was above average based on my performance (described above); nothing was discussed about the PE since I didn't get the results yet. Now that I have the results, I was told that I just got a raise and won't get another. I guess I see annual adjustments and PE adjustments as two seperate animals.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> They should be separate. I just received a 10% PE raise and was told that this was independent from mid year raises.
Click to expand...

I agree with engrstructural11. They should be totally separate as getting a PE is totally separate matter than your normal annual performance review.


----------



## Seabushed

I would have been happy with reimbursement for the books and class.


----------



## solomonb

Here are some points to ponder--- Money is nice, but not the end all factor. Liking your job, your colleagues, your office environment and the work that you do is a hell of a lot more important than another $5-6000. Don't think so? Well, get the raise and get a job that you hate. You will see my logic. It is tough to get up every morning, get ready, kiss the spouse, kick the dog and go-- if you hate to think about what the day is going to be. And Normally, every day is just about the same as yesterday. Contrast that with a $5000 less salary, but you are fired up to go every morning, are excited to be there, enjoy what you do, enjoy the environment, colleagues, work etc. The day goes by ZOOOM-- and you are done.

OK, you passed the PE exam. Time to have a talk with the pointy haired boss and point out the additional VALUE you bring to the firm. OK-- why are you different today from yesterday? Well, I have passed a nationally recognized examination sanctioned by the state you live in, I add more prestige to the firm and you can bill me at a higher rate-- I am a PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER. I passed the test and the State says so.

Now, I am not suggesting that you use the emotional approach to this argument, however, I am suggesting that you have a talk with the boss and clearly identify and illuminate the additional value that you now bring to the firm. If he is as dull as the pointy haired boss in Dilbert, then......................................................................... , we will have to find a friend like Alice, Dilbert's co-worker to soften him up a little.

I would strongly suggest looking at other opportunities-- yeah, it is a hassle to move, make new friends, live in a new city, etc. etc etc. It is also nice to have a 15-20% raise in salary and learn some new skills. Of course, if you don't want to move, fine-- however, recognize that moving is the way to increase salary. Moving is not for everyone-- it is a hassle, especially if you have children. Little children are no problem, they will and can adapt. Middle school/high schoolers require some additional attention, however, they too can move.

The cost of hiring a new employee is normally about 1 years salary. Most pointy haired bosses are willing to adjust your salary if you get real serious about a move. Of course, this assumes that you are not a dolt and are making a positive contribution to the firm. If not, the boss may be happy to see you try a new adventure.


----------



## Packman

just got a 8.2% raise. This is around the same time we usually get our annual raises of ~2% so my guess i that ~6% was for the PE.

Not as much as i would have liked, but i am happy doing what i am doing.

Side note: What is the correct "raise" etiquette? nobody informed me of my raise, i just noticed it on my paycheck this week. Should i call the head of the department and thank him?


----------



## Packman

you know what...just thinking about this...i am not happy with the raise i got. I believe a 10% raise is more than fair.

Should i counter offer?


----------



## knight1fox3

Typically, you would be given the merit increase amount near the end of your employee performance review. Which is also typically performed at the end/very beginning of the year by your direct supervisor. During the review you would generally discuss things you've done well, things that could use improvement, and agreed upon goals for you during the upcoming year. IMO, every employee should have some type of annual review even if it is brief so that they can gain an understanding of how they are performing. And if the employee is performing at or above company expectations, I feel an industry standard merit increase (3-5%) is in order.

When I received my PE license, I asked to take on more responsibility and therefore asked for a 10-15% raise. I justified this request with instances of how I was taking on more work and provided concrete examples of such. My raise request was given as a range because I didn't want to be held to a hard number. I wanted my supervisor to pick something in that range that he felt was fair. HTH.

BTW, have a look at this thread which contains some very good discussions aligned with this same topic.

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=14835


----------



## willsee

knight1fox3 said:


> When I received my PE license, I asked to take on more responsibility and therefore asked for a 10-15% raise. I justified this request with instances of how I was taking on more work and provided concrete examples of such.


This is the important part that everyone needs to re read over and over.

Most employers aren't going to give you extra just for getting your PE if your job duties/responsibilities don't change. It is up to you (the employee) to gain more responsibility or justify why you should earn more. What value you are you providing to your employer.

Probably still won't get a pay raise and so therefore switch companies.


----------



## Jdsmith PE

Here are some hard facts for anyone looking. Can't dispute the source either.

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172051.htm


----------



## JIX007

I passed Electrical Power PE last October first shot. I work in an MEP firm in Northern Virginia/DC area.

It is about time for me to bring up the money topic wth my boss. I was on vacation past 3 weeks and never got a chance to talk.

I have done some research, but also wanted the opinion of engineers on EB about my currect market value. Any help will be appreciated.

Info:

Education: BS Electrical Engineering

License: PE Electrical Engineering - Power

Experience: 5 years - Commercial Power/Lighting/Fire Alarm/Security System Design

Area: Northern Virginia/DC


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

Try this link it is for electrical engineers from government labor statistics

http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes172071.htm#top


----------



## knight1fox3

Have you looked at the various online salary resources to see how you compare? That's what I did when I was looking to get a raise. But I also had it well-documented on the additional responsibilities I was taking on which added value to the company. I didn't ask for a raise simply because I became a licensed engineer.


----------



## JIX007

Thanks ShipWreck and knghit1fox3.

bls.gov is a good resource, but I was looking for a more specific range (e.g. how much would a MEP firm offer me after a successful interview).

I did look up online various resources inclusding engineersalary.com and salary.com, and various job ads to compare myself to other peers in my league.

knghit1fox3,

when you did your research and documented all your responsibilities, how much (in % based on your base salary) did you get ?

I think any raise below 15% of my current salary will be low.


----------



## knight1fox3

In addition to online salary resources, I also contacted a few local job recruiters (head-hunters) to see how the salary levels compared. The online resources were inflated a bit but weren't necessarily too far off the mark. It's difficult to zero in on a specific number for an MEP firm because every firm is different and will have its own pay grade structure.

When the economy tanked back in 2008, our wages were frozen for a period of 12-16 months. While I was ok with that, we certainly lost ground in keeping up with the norm for my area. To compensate, I went to my boss and asked for a 10-15% raise. I specified a range because I didn't want to be held to an absolute number. I wanted my management to make a decision as to how much I was valued. In the end I believe the raise came to something like 11%. That was in addition to our annual 3% merit increases. I eventually left that company (after 6+ years) to go work for an engineering power consulting firm where I was able to negotiate a 20% salary increase from where I was at with my previous employer. I'm actually even considering making another move soon.


----------



## JIX007

Thanks! I am going to have a talk with my management this week and as I have a pretty good idea by now about my market value. I know for fact that there is a high demand for electrical PEs around this area. So I don't see any reason why my management would drag their feet.


----------



## JoeyPinoy

I think it's always important to remember that even if you like your company/boss/job function, that the relationship is ultimately commercial.

This article involving Steve Jobs shows how we as individuals don't have complete control on our employment fate:

http://pando.com/2014/01/23/the-techtopus-how-silicon-valleys-most-celebrated-ceos-conspired-to-drive-down-100000-tech-engineers-wages/


----------



## pssreddy25

Friends,

I have been working as R&amp;D engineer with a company in Mechanical domain.

Work involves ANSYS Structural, CFD, Autodesk Inventor Automation, formulation standardizing practices.

How ever I am fed up with this work for last 5 years and planing to sit for Mechanical PE in the coming April'14.

However, Can you please let me know any jobs for mechanical engineers with EIT/PE requirement?


----------



## willsee

HVAC Design


----------



## knight1fox3

And anything in the world of consulting.


----------



## ############01

This is an interesting topic. I had not considered that I might suggest a raise because at my company there is typically an assumption that a raise occurs when one achieves PE status. We do not have a large number of PEs though. Now I am wondering if after the PE happens I ought to suggest a number rather than being passive about it.

I work as an environmental engineer. I am a "senior" engineer in title and will sit for the exam next month (Ahhhh!) My firm is a consulting firm that provides a wide range of environmental services to private equity clients (mostly). I have about 6 years of experience and do mostly compliance work with some remediation sprinkled in. Currently I'm just below 60k plus we have a bonus program so last year I got a 6k bonus (I am expecting a similar number for 2013 but that typically happens in March). I'd say about 10-15 hours of my 40hr week are in generating sales and maintaining client relationships and the rest is project work. I just had an annual review and my metrics were all well exceeded.

I work in the southeastern US. I entered my info into the salary website referred to and it appears I'm underpaid regardless of PE status. I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts (not trying to hijack this thread).


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

I just got my PE in October 2013 and I asked for a review and we settled at a 19% increase. Go for it!!


----------



## cajone5

altheablue18 said:


> This is an interesting topic. I had not considered that I might suggest a raise because at my company there is typically an assumption that a raise occurs when one achieves PE status. We do not have a large number of PEs though. Now I am wondering if after the PE happens I ought to suggest a number rather than being passive about it.
> 
> I work as an environmental engineer. I am a "senior" engineer in title and will sit for the exam next month (Ahhhh!) My firm is a consulting firm that provides a wide range of environmental services to private equity clients (mostly). I have about 6 years of experience and do mostly compliance work with some remediation sprinkled in. Currently I'm just below 60k plus we have a bonus program so last year I got a 6k bonus (I am expecting a similar number for 2013 but that typically happens in March). I'd say about 10-15 hours of my 40hr week are in generating sales and maintaining client relationships and the rest is project work. I just had an annual review and my metrics were all well exceeded.
> 
> I work in the southeastern US. I entered my info into the salary website referred to and it appears I'm underpaid regardless of PE status. I'm wondering if anyone has thoughts (not trying to hijack this thread).




Definitely be active in the conversation. Do your research. Know your worth. As you probably already know from this thread you can find salary info...

-- On websites (salary.com, glassdoor.com, engineersalary.com, etc.)

-- The NSPE has a report you can buy that will give breakdowns by education, experience, field, focus and licensure

-- The ASCE and ASME have a joint report you can find that's _very_ similar to the NSPE one but usually a year outdated

-- Talk to recruiters and friends doing similar work

-- Look into job postings

Armed with this info you can approach your employer with a good idea of what you want. Aim slightly high and be willing to negotiate. Also, you should be going into this with the understanding that more pay leads to more responsibility. Know what you have to offer. Where can you add value to the business? Maybe you can write more proposals? Maybe you can lead projects? Maybe you can market and get more work in the door? You'll need at least something to hang your hat on so think about that as well. Your employer, while wanting the best for you, isn't going to just hand over a big paycheck without you working for it and justifying it.

Hope this helps  Good luck.


----------



## ############01

Thanks everyone for the advice. I guess my first step will be to get through the April exam....


----------



## Seabushed

In January ASME had a nice article regarding the 2013 salary survey.

https://www.asme.org/engineering-topics/articles/workforce-development/2013-salary-survey-engineers-ride-wave


----------



## NJmike PE

NJmike PE said:


> Unlicensed, I gross between 61k - 62k per year, depending on OT. I hope that a license brings in more.


Licensed, I gross 62.5k per year, taken off hourly and put on salary. No more OT. Not much of a raise there...


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

^^Ouch


----------



## NJmike PE

Ship Wreck PE said:


> ^^Ouch


yeah, tell me about it. and with 15 years of experience at the same company too.


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

Get her done in 40. ^^^


----------



## knight1fox3

NJmike PE said:


> Ship Wreck PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^Ouch
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, tell me about it. and with 15 years of experience at the same company too.
Click to expand...

That wouldn't fly with me. Just sayin'.  Thanks for the opportunity and experience! LOL


----------



## snickerd3

wow NJ...even working for the state my salary is higher.


----------



## Dark Knight

PE and Money...

I have to restrain myself from laughing but I do understand why the question is asked.

Am going to quote a professor during the orientation week in an engineering college. He asked a group of maybe 200 freshmen: " Who here wants to be an engineer because it pays good money?" A good group raised their hands but I am sure there were more than the ones who did it.

"Well...sorry to burst your bubble but you have selected the wrong career. You should have gone to law or medicine school". I have found that to be true.

Then we have the myth of professional license and how it has become a huge business for a few that are milking it to the extreme. Out of respect for some friends that may be related to the licensing authority will not say more but I do not have lost love for that organization.

Then some State Boars take it to the next level of stupidity. When I took the EIT and then the PE test (with a few years in between) a representative of the State Board was always there to remind us that regardless of the results we were not going to be able to practice engineering without paying them an annual fee. It is not enough you have to study your butt off in college, then you have to take not one, but two tests to complete the circle. You have to pay an annual fee too just to be able to work? "If you do not want to pay Walmart is hiring. I am sure you will do fine there", the a-hole said once. Ahh...But it is for a good cause..."We are protecting the profession of engineering". Bull crap!!!!!!!! They are protecting their worthless drinking bar for Friday nights.

Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.


----------



## knight1fox3

Dark Knight said:


> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.


I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.


----------



## snickerd3

^that's why I got as a personal goal and not a work requirement or for $. It was more of a respect gainer and getting taken more seriously.


----------



## Dark Knight

Oh...I



knight1fox3 said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.
Click to expand...

Oh!!!!! I had double my salary too. But the PE, contrary to what I believed first, had nothing to do with it and with the movements I made.

About the money, the only way it can happen in my line of work is by moonlighting since we have pay ranges where I work. Whatever I do will not go over Y. I have had the chance to do work on the side but it required me to work long hours during the weekends and/or work at home during the week. Am past that threshold when I had the energy to do that. 20k extra a year sounds great but sleeping 4 hours a day is not an option for my 50 y/o body.

From where I see it, an engineering career would be enough to live OK. If you want to become rich, it is not for you.


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

^^ Dang I thought I was rich??


----------



## knight1fox3

Dark Knight said:


> knight1fox3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Oh!!!!! I had double my salary too. But the PE, contrary to what I believed first, had nothing to do with it and with the movements I made.
> 
> About the money, the only way it can happen in my line of work is by moonlighting since we have pay ranges where I work. Whatever I do will not go over Y. I have had the chance to do work on the side but it required me to work long hours during the weekends and/or work at home during the week. Am past that threshold when I had the energy to do that. 20k extra a year sounds great but sleeping 4 hours a day is not an option for my 50 y/o body.
> 
> From where I see it, an engineering career would be enough to live OK. If you want to become rich, it is not for you.
Click to expand...

I'll agree to disagree. And perhaps it's a regional thing because I am in the same line of work as you and can get the high pay grade without working crazy hours or over-time. No weekends required either.

And it also depends largely on your definition of "rich". To me rich is having the ability to purchase anything we want or take a trip whenever we desire and not having any major debt to worry about. I don't need to make millions to be happy. We live in a nice neighborhood with a less than 15-yr old home, drive nice cars (that are paid for), and still have the flexibility to make purchases or do as we please. A lot of this would not have been possible if it weren't for my engineering profession and obtaining my PE license. :thumbs:


----------



## cajone5

Dark Knight -- I think you're misrepresenting a few things.

First, no one said you'd "get rich" as an engineer. That does not mean, however, that you will not have the opportunity to live a comfortable life that is far above average. You can make good money as an engineer. Very good. Comparing it to the top fraction of a percent of people and balking at the fact that it doesn't match up seems silly to me. You can look at ANY profession and come to the same conclusion. However, on average, engineers have the potential to achieve pay that places them in the top 10-20%.

Second, if you think your PE is meaningless in the equation, you're wrong again. It does several things. It demonstrates a level of competence. It allows you to take professional and legal responsibility for your work. It elevates your perceived status and marketability in the industry. On and on. Saying it's worthless is silly. That's similar to the folks that claim it's worthless because "you're the same today (with your PE) as you were yesterday (without your PE) so why do you deserve a raise?"... Seriously? Let's extrapolate that thought... if you're always the same tomorrow as you are today and always the same today as yesterday then do you ever deserve a raise? By that logic, no. But again, it's short sighted and doesn't look at the whole picture.

Finally, on the bashing of the licensing agencies, I can at least sympathize here... they definitely cost a lot more than they're worth. However, I think they're necessary to prevent illegitimate folks from practicing, to ensure folks stay current with their continuing education, to maintain a database of this information, etc. They may arguably be overpaid for these services but they are by no means unnecessary.

As someone with a PE, SE, MS and (in progress) Ph.D. I can assure you I'm intimately familiar with red tape, opportunity cost and relative worth of degrees, licenses, titles and letters after your name. They are oftentimes much more "work" for most people than they are worth, but that does not by any means indicate that they're worthless.


----------



## NJmike PE

snickerd3 said:


> wow NJ...even working for the state my salary is higher.


I'm giving them 12 months, well now 9. 12 months to show me that the economy has turned around, that we are getting busy, that we are making money. All things that i have been hearing since the beginning of the year, and more often as of late. At the end of 2014, if I have not received the bonuses promised, or a raise to show me that they value me as an engineer, then buh-bye.


----------



## knight1fox3

^ now you're cooking with peanut oil!!!!


----------



## NJmike PE

knight1fox3 said:


> ^ now you're cooking with peanut oil!!!!


Yumm, peanut oil. Peanut oil =deep fried goodness


----------



## NJmike PE

Oh, and as luck would have it, I ran into an old geotech professor this morning. He is the Senior VP of the geotech dept at his firm and lives in my town. We talked for a few mins and he told me if I was ever interested in making a move, he would have a spot open for me. It would be a nice jump, from a small private consulting firm, to a larger corporate firm.


----------



## Krakosky

Did you run into him at starbucks?


----------



## NJmike PE

no. on my salary, starbucks is out of my price range. Dunkin'


----------



## Krakosky

Dunkin is better anyways.


----------



## NJmike PE

agreed. starbucks always tastes burnt to me


----------



## Dark Knight

cajone5 said:


> Dark Knight -- I think you're misrepresenting a few things.
> 
> First, no one said you'd "get rich" as an engineer. That does not mean, however, that you will not have the opportunity to live a comfortable life that is far above average. You can make good money as an engineer. Very good. Comparing it to the top fraction of a percent of people and balking at the fact that it doesn't match up seems silly to me. You can look at ANY profession and come to the same conclusion. However, on average, engineers have the potential to achieve pay that places them in the top 10-20%.
> 
> Second, if you think your PE is meaningless in the equation, you're wrong again. It does several things. It demonstrates a level of competence. It allows you to take professional and legal responsibility for your work. It elevates your perceived status and marketability in the industry. On and on. Saying it's worthless is silly. That's similar to the folks that claim it's worthless because "you're the same today (with your PE) as you were yesterday (without your PE) so why do you deserve a raise?"... Seriously? Let's extrapolate that thought... if you're always the same tomorrow as you are today and always the same today as yesterday then do you ever deserve a raise? By that logic, no. But again, it's short sighted and doesn't look at the whole picture.
> 
> Finally, on the bashing of the licensing agencies, I can at least sympathize here... they definitely cost a lot more than they're worth. However, I think they're necessary to prevent illegitimate folks from practicing, to ensure folks stay current with their continuing education, to maintain a database of this information, etc. They may arguably be overpaid for these services but they are by no means unnecessary.
> 
> As someone with a PE, SE, MS and (in progress) Ph.D. I can assure you I'm intimately familiar with red tape, opportunity cost and relative worth of degrees, licenses, titles and letters after your name. They are oftentimes much more "work" for most people than they are worth, but that does not by any means indicate that they're worthless.




It all depends on how do you look at it and it is obvious that our experiences are different.

I do have a tough time buying the level of competency concept. Once I hear this quote: "You can be a PE and still be an idiot". Hold your horses everybody. Am just quoting and not calling names here. That being said...that quote are very true. Have known PEs that are completely clueless. Have known non PEs that are very competent.

I believe a professional proves himself with his work. Period. But I guess we need a metric, or something, to hold professionals accountable for their work.There comes the PE status for engineers. Of course, and this never fails, this need for the metric then brings someone who turns it into a very profitable business. At the end of the day is all about the money.


----------



## YMZ PE

NJmike PE said:


> Oh, and as luck would have it, I ran into an old geotech professor this morning. He is the Senior VP of the geotech dept at his firm and lives in my town. We talked for a few mins and he told me if I was ever interested in making a move, he would have a spot open for me. It would be a nice jump, from a small private consulting firm, to a larger corporate firm.




Nice! I'm biased, but geotech is a great field to get into, and all the better if you're working for a large firm. An added perk is all the jokes you can intelligently make about penetration tests, jacking, skin friction, swelling, oh the places your mind will go.


----------



## Lungshen

NJ mike, make the jump. Seriously.

I worked for a small consulting firm 8-15 over the years for 12 years. Start as EIT at 29k and hit the ceiling at 65k after I have been EOR signing drawing for over 7 years. Oh, no bonus for couple years before I finally decided to left. It wasn't the money that made me left but with the new employer a larger firm of 150+ employees I am making 25% more base salary and the bonus was close to 10% of the gross annual. I would have never make this kind of salary by staying in a small 15 people consulting firm.

The trade off is that larger firm lay people off left and right when losing work. Small firm you have the job security. But I never regret the move and never look back.


----------



## NJmike PE

YMZ PE said:


> NJmike PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and as luck would have it, I ran into an old geotech professor this morning. He is  the Senior VP of the geotech dept at his firm and lives in my town. We talked for a few mins and he told me if I was ever interested in making a move, he would have a spot open for me. It would be a nice jump, from a small private consulting firm, to a larger corporate firm.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice! I'm biased, but geotech is a great field to get into, and all the better if you're working for a large firm. An added perk is all the jokes you can intelligently make about penetration tests, jacking, skin friction, swelling, oh the places your mind will go.
Click to expand...

YMZ, even though I'm a drainage guy right now, I've always had aspirations to play in the dirt. While working and going to school, I found it easy to stick with the WR&amp;E field, but I really enjoyed my geotech classes. In fact I found them all to be the easiest for me. I always thought that some day I would make the switch from WR&amp;E to geo. Maybe it's sooner than later.

Besides, who doesn't like a penetration test for a drilled shaft...



Lungshen said:


> NJ mike, make the jump. Seriously.
> 
> I worked for a small consulting firm 8-15 over the years for 12 years. Start as EIT at 29k and hit the ceiling at 65k after I have been EOR signing drawing for over 7 years. Oh, no bonus for couple years before I finally decided to left. It wasn't the money that made me left but with the new employer a larger firm of 150+ employees I am making 25% more base salary and the bonus was close to 10% of the gross annual. I would have never make this kind of salary by staying in a small 15 people consulting firm.
> 
> The trade off is that larger firm lay people off left and right when losing work. Small firm you have the job security. But I never regret the move and never look back.


I hear you. I'm aware of the perks/downfalls. For now, I'm staying put. I have some financial obligations to this firm, I borrowed money and am in the final year of the payback. Plus, I want to see that the job market is improving. It should only help my chances. However, increases in salaries and bonuses are def eye openers.


----------



## YMZ PE

NJmike PE said:


> YMZ, even though I'm a drainage guy right now, I've always had aspirations to play in the dirt. While working and going to school, I found it easy to stick with the WR&amp;E field, but I really enjoyed my geotech classes. In fact I found them all to be the easiest for me. I always thought that some day I would make the switch from WR&amp;E to geo. Maybe it's sooner than later.




That was me when I graduated in 2006. I made the jump after a couple years working in water resources to get my MS in geotech, and I never regretted it. The field experience is so rewarding.

One thing to consider if you decide to pursue the new job is that geotech is a field where you'll be strongly encouraged to get your MS. There's a lot to learn, particularly in seismic hazard analysis, and in fact the few geotechs I've worked with who didn't have graduate degrees were relegated to much less sexy work, doing things like drilling coordination and simple shallow foundation jobs. You might want to ask your professor if he expects you to pursue a grad degree.


----------



## NJmike PE

YMZ PE said:


> NJmike PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> YMZ, even though I'm a drainage guy right now, I've always had aspirations to play in the dirt. While working and going to school, I found it easy to stick with the WR&amp;E field, but I really enjoyed my geotech classes. In fact I found them all to be the easiest for me. I always thought that some day I would make the switch from WR&amp;E to geo. Maybe it's sooner than later.
> 
> 
> 
> That was me when I graduated in 2006. I made the jump after a couple years working in water resources to get my MS in geotech, and I never regretted it. The field experience is so rewarding.
> 
> One thing to consider if you decide to pursue the new job is that geotech is a field where you'll be strongly encouraged to get your MS. There's a lot to learn, particularly in seismic hazard analysis, and in fact the few geotechs I've worked with who didn't have graduate degrees were relegated to much less sexy work, doing things like drilling coordination and simple shallow foundation jobs. You might want to ask your professor if he expects you to pursue a grad degree.
Click to expand...

Good to know. I know he got his, and if I remember correctly he encouraged it as well.


----------



## Jdsmith PE

Its been two and a half months since receiving my PE results and I am now at a new firm with a 27% raise. The PE is not meaningless!!!!


----------



## NJmike PE

HFS!!! It's a JDS siting. I thought you had retired from this board.


----------



## knight1fox3

NJmike PE said:


> HFS!!! It's a JDS siting. I thought you had retired from this board.


LOL..... lusone:


----------



## NJmike PE

Jdsmith PE said:


> Its been two and a half months since receiving my PE results and I am now at a new firm with a 27% raise. The PE is not meaningless!!!!


OK, let's go money bags. Fork over some money, become a supporting member and hang around for a while.


----------



## petegiam07

Hey Guys, been lurking for a while now and thought I'd contribute.

I'm 29 from NJ just shy of 7 years full time experience in Potable Water Resources and 2 summer internships in Geotechnical Engineering. I have both a BS and MS (got part time while working full time).

Anyway, I worked a large amount of overtime the past 3 years (average 300 hrs per year) and worked several Saturdays as well especially holiday summer weekends. I also practically lived in another state 4/5 nights a week in a hotel for a big job for 1 year 3 years ago.

I passed the Oct. PE and received a bonus for my efforts but I still felt it wasn't enough with all the personal sacrifice and extra money I made for my company the past 3 years. That being said I made a salary of 69K and got bumped to 72K as part of my increase for 2014. Personally, I thought it was time for a promotion considering I was watching the president's son get promoted above me with less experience! But what can I do about that? It happens.... The real thing that got me upset is they made me feel as if my PE license was the only thing holding me back. Instead they said I had to wait for a "board review" in Oct. 2014 and i MAY get a promotion then.

Anyway, I did some searching on the market for new jobs. Long story short I work now for another company with a 22% increase in salary before any overtime. My old company did not even counteroffer. From my estimate it would be at least another 4/5 years before I made this much with my old company.

I would encourage anyone to look around if you feel you are worth more. I even saw my old coworkers (Vice President's and all ) at a conference I went to with my new company. They were not down at all about me leaving and knew it was just business and I had to look out for myself. They took the time to talk to me and explain how many people leave and come back to companies in the business and it is a small world. You never know whats out there until you give it a shot.


----------



## NJmike PE

Pete, your story is very intriguing to me. As I stated earlier in this thread, I'm waiting patiently for the remainder of this year. Waiting to see what offer is made to me at the end of the year. Waiting and accruing valuable experience which will only work in my favor. Waiting while I update my resume and waiting as the economy continues to steadily improve. Everything that will work in my favor if I am forced to move on. But thanks for your inspiring story to know that there is still work in this wretched state.

One question if I may. North, central or southern NJ?


----------



## I M A PE

NJmike PE said:


> Ship Wreck PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^Ouch
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, tell me about it. and with 15 years of experience at the same company too.
Click to expand...

Wow, 15 years experience and you're in the low 60's? I'm surprised at that. And you're in the northeast too? Here in Texas, we're hiring kids whose ink isn't dry on their diploma with or without EIT for the mid 50's. Heck, way back in 1999 I came out of school and started at $42k. I'd say if your salary has stalled and you've been there 15 years, it may be high time to look around. Some companies simply don't appreciate or value loyalty. A civil PE in my area is making around $95k. Mechancial is probably similar but Mech E jobs in Austin, TX are somewhat fewer, it seems, than civil which is why I've jumped from ME to CE. I had to take a step back in salary because I'm rebuilding my expertise in a new arena but I'm already at $85k. Hopefully I'll pass the PE and be at $95k soon. If my current employer doesn't come up with that kind of money within a year after passing (I think they will), I'll definitely look around. Love my company and have every reason to think they plan on coming through but the PE is really going to open up options here locally. State capital. TxDOT is here. Lot's of civil design going on.


----------



## cajone5

Ready for PE said:


> NJmike PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ship Wreck PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^Ouch
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, tell me about it. and with 15 years of experience at the same company too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, 15 years experience and you're in the low 60's? I'm surprised at that. And you're in the northeast too? Here in Texas, we're hiring kids whose ink isn't dry on their diploma with or without EIT for the mid 50's. Heck, way back in 1999 I came out of school and started at $42k. I'd say if your salary has stalled and you've been there 15 years, it may be high time to look around. Some companies simply don't appreciate or value loyalty. A civil PE in my area is making around $95k. Mechancial is probably similar but Mech E jobs in Austin, TX are somewhat fewer, it seems, than civil which is why I've jumped from ME to CE. I had to take a step back in salary because I'm rebuilding my expertise in a new arena but I'm already at $85k. Hopefully I'll pass the PE and be at $95k soon. If my current employer doesn't come up with that kind of money within a year after passing (I think they will), I'll definitely look around. Love my company and have every reason to think they plan on coming through but the PE is really going to open up options here locally. State capital. TxDOT is here. Lot's of civil design going on.
Click to expand...



Huh... maybe I need to look into my options here... I am a structural engineer doing specialty consulting work (complex designs and analysis for wind, seismic, blast, etc.) and have a BSCE, MSSE, and half-way through a part-time PhD in CE at UT and I have my TX PE and should officially have my IL SE in the next few weeks and I only make a little less than $80k salary (no overtime). I have about 7 years experience... based on what you say, my pay sounds low?


----------



## I M A PE

petegiam07 said:


> Hey Guys, been lurking for a while now and thought I'd contribute.
> 
> I'm 29 from NJ just shy of 7 years full time experience in Potable Water Resources and 2 summer internships in Geotechnical Engineering. I have both a BS and MS (got part time while working full time).
> 
> Anyway, I worked a large amount of overtime the past 3 years (average 300 hrs per year) and worked several Saturdays as well especially holiday summer weekends. I also practically lived in another state 4/5 nights a week in a hotel for a big job for 1 year 3 years ago.
> 
> I passed the Oct. PE and received a bonus for my efforts but I still felt it wasn't enough with all the personal sacrifice and extra money I made for my company the past 3 years. That being said I made a salary of 69K and got bumped to 72K as part of my increase for 2014. Personally, I thought it was time for a promotion considering I was watching the president's son get promoted above me with less experience! But what can I do about that? It happens.... The real thing that got me upset is they made me feel as if my PE license was the only thing holding me back. Instead they said I had to wait for a "board review" in Oct. 2014 and i MAY get a promotion then.
> 
> Anyway, I did some searching on the market for new jobs. Long story short I work now for another company with a 22% increase in salary before any overtime. My old company did not even counteroffer. From my estimate it would be at least another 4/5 years before I made this much with my old company.
> 
> I would encourage anyone to look around if you feel you are worth more. I even saw my old coworkers (Vice President's and all ) at a conference I went to with my new company. They were not down at all about me leaving and knew it was just business and I had to look out for myself. They took the time to talk to me and explain how many people leave and come back to companies in the business and it is a small world. You never know whats out there until you give it a shot.


Yep, definitely don't ever burn any bridges. Always act professionally and without any hard feelings on the way out the door. Thank them for the job and the opportunities over the years. Don't ever trash talk a former employer (except maybe among trusted fellow former employees, hehe). They will appreciate it and respect it. It is a small world and you're likely to continue running into them professionally one way or another. The more "good" professional relationships you have, the more valuable you are.


----------



## I M A PE

cajone5 said:


> Ready for PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NJmike PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ship Wreck PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> ^^Ouch
> 
> 
> 
> yeah, tell me about it. and with 15 years of experience at the same company too.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Wow, 15 years experience and you're in the low 60's? I'm surprised at that. And you're in the northeast too? Here in Texas, we're hiring kids whose ink isn't dry on their diploma with or without EIT for the mid 50's. Heck, way back in 1999 I came out of school and started at $42k. I'd say if your salary has stalled and you've been there 15 years, it may be high time to look around. Some companies simply don't appreciate or value loyalty. A civil PE in my area is making around $95k. Mechancial is probably similar but Mech E jobs in Austin, TX are somewhat fewer, it seems, than civil which is why I've jumped from ME to CE. I had to take a step back in salary because I'm rebuilding my expertise in a new arena but I'm already at $85k. Hopefully I'll pass the PE and be at $95k soon. If my current employer doesn't come up with that kind of money within a year after passing (I think they will), I'll definitely look around. Love my company and have every reason to think they plan on coming through but the PE is really going to open up options here locally. State capital. TxDOT is here. Lot's of civil design going on.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Huh... maybe I need to look into my options here... I am a structural engineer doing specialty consulting work (complex designs and analysis for wind, seismic, blast, etc.) and have a BSCE, MSSE, and half-way through a part-time PhD in CE at UT and I have my TX PE and should officially have my IL SE in the next few weeks and I only make a little less than $80k salary (no overtime). I have about 7 years experience... based on what you say, my pay sounds low?
Click to expand...

I can't say for sure for sure if it's low. I got my $95k number for civil PE's from a salary survey website and from some recent comments directly from my boss who said when he was interviewing me for an internal transfer/promotion that PE's at my company make "at least" $95k. I have about 15 years experience and most of that is in an executive position where I was heading up an engineering department of about 25 people at a company with about $60M in revenue. I was making more than a typical PE or engineer. It wasn't really my role at the time. Now that I've jumped to civil, I made the deliberate decision that I would drop several rungs down the ladder and work my way back up. I'm in a project management position now but with no where near the financial responsibility I had before and nowhere near the number of people reporting to me (in fact, officially I have none right now which is a wonderful, wonderful thing if you can still make enough to pay the bills). So I'm not really sure how much of my current $85k is in recognition of my previous experience. I don't know what other PM's make in the company. I am blissfully ignorant and don't ask because all it can do is either piss me off or make someone jealous of me and I don't want either of those headaches. I have a hunch that I'm paid in line with other PM's.

I'd also update LinkedIn. I get half a dozen or more headhunters reach out to me a year. In fact, I've never had any luck at all applying cold for a job. Almost zero response. I've switched jobs when headhunters have contacted me or, in the case of my current job, I had a previous professional relationship with the owner. I invited him to lunch and told him that I wanted to come work for him. He's a no BS guy. He asked how much I wanted, I named what I thought was a safely low number and I was hired. I was desperate to change jobs at that moment. I had been commuting 285 miles round trip for 5 months every day. I'm not kidding. That's how far I had to go for a decently paying ME job after losing a previous job. I think my "safely low" number turned out to be right in line with their salary structure but that was a coincidence.

In the end, I think the only way to know what you're worth is to put yourself out there and talk to people. I learned the hard way to always have an exit strategy anyway. I'd been at my company where I was the VP of Engineering for 11 years. Get on the wrong side of one powerful shareholder and you're unceremoneously shown the door without much warning or explanation or chance to fight for your job. Job success, awesome subornidate reviews and morale, stellar year after year performance reviews, and sustained measurable high job performance can mean nothing.

I would think in Austin, as a consulting structural PE, you'd be higher than the 80's. My company doesn't do any design, otherwise I'd ask you for a resume. We're growing. We do some construction management for transportation but that's the closest we get to design. We're actually a surveying a mapping firm. One of the largest in the country.


----------



## engineergurl

I like money.


----------



## knight1fox3

You like money too?! We should hang out...


----------



## NJmike PE

I like bacon


----------



## engineergurl

I like free bacon so I can keep my money.


----------



## NJmike PE

engineergurl said:


> I like free bacon so I can keep my money.


even better


----------



## I M A PE

Dark Knight said:


> PE and Money...
> 
> I have to restrain myself from laughing but I do understand why the question is asked.
> 
> Am going to quote a professor during the orientation week in an engineering college. He asked a group of maybe 200 freshmen: " Who here wants to be an engineer because it pays good money?" A good group raised their hands but I am sure there were more than the ones who did it.
> 
> "Well...sorry to burst your bubble but you have selected the wrong career. You should have gone to law or medicine school".


All of my doctor and lawyer friends had to go to 3-7 extra years of school and are still paying back student loans 15 years after getting their white coat or passing the bar. I explored law school. All the lawyers out there say "Don't do it!!! The only way to make decent money so you can afford to pay back your law school loans is to work 55-60 hour weeks in a cubicle farm. Sure the money is good but you're a slave because of the student loan. I have no life."


----------



## I M A PE

Dark Knight said:


> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.




I'm making $85/hour on the side doing some consulting in a different industry from my day job. Work out of the house, on my own time. My only overhead there is a laptop and Autodesk Inventor that I have to keep reasonably up to date. I want to work an extra 5 hours a week, that's an extra $22k in my pocket.... for some relatively easy work. I do it in front of the TV. There is money to be made if you find the right gigs.

I don't even have my PE yet and I've been asked if, when I get my stamp, I'll review some work. It was about 40 hours of engineering and they wanted to pay me $1500! It would have been an easy gig. Too bad it's out of my area of expertise. I had to turn it down. Speaking of... any structural engineers with a Texas license want a consulting gig?


----------



## petegiam07

NJmike PE said:


> Pete, your story is very intriguing to me. As I stated earlier in this thread, I'm waiting patiently for the remainder of this year. Waiting to see what offer is made to me at the end of the year. Waiting and accruing valuable experience which will only work in my favor. Waiting while I update my resume and waiting as the economy continues to steadily improve. Everything that will work in my favor if I am forced to move on. But thanks for your inspiring story to know that there is still work in this wretched state.
> 
> One question if I may. North, central or southern NJ?


My old one was north but moved central and my new one is north Jersey (by north I mean north of Route 78) . They both however have other branches throughout NJ. They are also both international engineering firms.

Also, a college buddy of mine works out of another branch of my old company in NJ and they gave him a nice raise and promotion this year. He is with a different department though and it is run by completely different people. It's sad it came down to me leaving, but they know they didn't really give me much choice. No one in the department I worked in near my level of experience would put in the hours I did.


----------



## I M A PE

knight1fox3 said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.
Click to expand...

I more than tripled my starting salary by staying at the same place for 11 years and growing a department. When I started, the company was 38 employees and I was the entire engineering department. 11 years later, the company was 140 employees and the engineering department I headed was 25 employees. Knight Fox is right on. If you're smart, ambitious and don't let your employer pigeon hole you and define you, there are ways to be successful.

A wise man once said, "Your boss owns your job. You own your career."


----------



## I M A PE

NJmike PE said:


> Oh, and as luck would have it, I ran into an old geotech professor this morning. He is the Senior VP of the geotech dept at his firm and lives in my town. We talked for a few mins and he told me if I was ever interested in making a move, he would have a spot open for me. It would be a nice jump, from a small private consulting firm, to a larger corporate firm.


That conversation right there... that might be your next job. Why wait 9 months to continue this conversation? I'd keep it going, even if it's on a slow burn and see where the conversation goes. Tell him, "As a matter of fact, I have thought that it might be time to make a move. Let's talk about how I can help you because I'm interested." Carpe Diem!


----------



## engineergurl

Ready for PE said:


> knight1fox3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I more than tripled my starting salary by staying at the same place for 11 years and growing a department. When I started, the company was 38 employees and I was the entire engineering department. 11 years later, the company was 140 employees and the engineering department I headed was 25 employees. Knight Fox is right on. If you're smart, ambitious and don't let your employer pigeon hole you and define you, there are ways to be successful.
> 
> A wise man once said, "Your boss owns your job. You own your career."
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if you work with another member here, Exception Collection... seem to have similar stories here.


----------



## I M A PE

engineergurl said:


> I'm wondering if you work with another member here, Exception Collection... seem to have similar stories here.


Don't know. I haven't run across Exception Collection. I just looked her up on the board. She's in Seattle. I seriously doubt I know her. In my past life, I didn't know any female engineers and I've only been with my new company for a year.


----------



## cajone5

Ready for PE said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm making $85/hour on the side doing some consulting in a different industry from my day job. Work out of the house, on my own time. My only overhead there is a laptop and Autodesk Inventor that I have to keep reasonably up to date. I want to work an extra 5 hours a week, that's an extra $22k in my pocket.... for some relatively easy work. I do it in front of the TV. There is money to be made if you find the right gigs.
> 
> I don't even have my PE yet and I've been asked if, when I get my stamp, I'll review some work. It was about 40 hours of engineering and they wanted to pay me $1500! It would have been an easy gig. Too bad it's out of my area of expertise. I had to turn it down. Speaking of... any structural engineers with a Texas license want a consulting gig?
Click to expand...

TX structural engineer checking in -- would be interested to hear more for sure.


----------



## I M A PE

cajone5 said:


> Ready for PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm making $85/hour on the side doing some consulting in a different industry from my day job. Work out of the house, on my own time. My only overhead there is a laptop and Autodesk Inventor that I have to keep reasonably up to date. I want to work an extra 5 hours a week, that's an extra $22k in my pocket.... for some relatively easy work. I do it in front of the TV. There is money to be made if you find the right gigs.
> 
> I don't even have my PE yet and I've been asked if, when I get my stamp, I'll review some work. It was about 40 hours of engineering and they wanted to pay me $1500! It would have been an easy gig. Too bad it's out of my area of expertise. I had to turn it down. Speaking of... any structural engineers with a Texas license want a consulting gig?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> TX structural engineer checking in -- would be interested to hear more for sure.
Click to expand...

I'll reach out to my guy and see if he's still looking for someone. He's started his own engineering firm in Canada but has this job in Texas. I believe it's oil related. He needs somebody to review and stamp this structure they designed. If he says he still needs somebody, I'll let you know. I'll PM you and let you know either way.


----------



## petegiam07

Ready for PE said:


> NJmike PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and as luck would have it, I ran into an old geotech professor this morning. He is the Senior VP of the geotech dept at his firm and lives in my town. We talked for a few mins and he told me if I was ever interested in making a move, he would have a spot open for me. It would be a nice jump, from a small private consulting firm, to a larger corporate firm.
> 
> 
> 
> That conversation right there... that might be your next job. Why wait 9 months to continue this conversation? I'd keep it going, even if it's on a slow burn and see where the conversation goes. Tell him, "As a matter of fact, I have thought that it might be time to make a move. Let's talk about how I can help you because I'm interested." Carpe Diem!
Click to expand...



I would consider the jump now also. First, these things sometimes take time (upcoming project needs sometimes get delayed). Second, it is NOT very often you can jump to a completely different type of engineering than you are currently doing. It is tough to change disciplines and if you have a chance to do it in a larger corporate place with all those experienced resources close to you why not try it?

Even though I'm still in Potable Water Resources with my new place, I moved from a division of about 30 engineers all doing Potable Water Projects to a division that only has 7 of us and trying to make a bigger splash in the NJ market. ( I do a little sewer work now too, but am enjoying learning some new things)

The new place for you may be looking to grab a market your already familiar with too. It really can benefit you if you put the time into have an interview with them to see what they would be looking for you to do.


----------



## I M A PE

AND.... my boss just came in and dropped a $15k raise in my lap for passing the PE. I told him on Tuesday that I passed. Today (the first day I've seen him this week because he works in a different office) he comes in and gives me this. I love this company. I was hoping for $10k based on a hint he dropped a while back but he didn't wait for me to bring it up. Instead, he surprised me by surpassing my hope by 50%. This is on top of a $10k raise and promotion that I got in February.

I've been a boss before and I tried to treat my people the way my boss is treating me now. THIS is how you earn employee loyalty. I'm about at the point that I'd jump in front of a bus for this guy. $25k in raises in 4 months. WOW.

Where's my wife? We are going to the nicest restaurant in Austin.


----------



## working on PE

WHat is your company?


----------



## ilikespe

Ready for PE what company is this? Heck my company will not even give me a day off to take the exam.


----------



## Kolso1PE

Same here. Yes - what company do you work?


----------



## I M A PE

Surveying and Mapping, LLC. Headquarters in Austin but offices in Dallas, Houston, Denver, Columbus. Several new offices are planned. We are growing and working on expanding geographically. We do mostly corridor surveying and aerial mapping but also some engineering services. I was in aerial mapping but now am in a subsurface utility engineering role.

www.sam.biz


----------



## Porter_

Ready for PE said:


> AND.... my boss just came in and dropped a $15k raise in my lap for passing the PE. I told him on Tuesday that I passed. Today (the first day I've seen him this week because he works in a different office) he comes in and gives me this. I love this company. I was hoping for $10k based on a hint he dropped a while back but he didn't wait for me to bring it up. Instead, he surprised me by surpassing my hope by 50%. This is on top of a $10k raise and promotion that I got in February.
> 
> I've been a boss before and I tried to treat my people the way my boss is treating me now. THIS is how you earn employee loyalty. I'm about at the point that I'd jump in front of a bus for this guy. $25k in raises in 4 months. WOW.
> 
> Where's my wife? We are going to the nicest restaurant in Austin.




wow that's a great boss. congrats on the heavier wallet man.


----------



## acethepemd

How many of you guys demanded pay raise after getting the PE license and really got the salary raise?


----------



## Porter_

ha 'demanded'. i did very well at my last company by being aggressive when asking for pay raises. my new company has a much different vibe and aggression will not get me far. i'm waiting until my mid-year review and then bringing up the topic with an unassuming attitude.


----------



## DeltaT

as with the game of chess.. and with matters in life, being tactful matters. Just some words of wisdom, but the word "demand" will probably not serve you well during a discussion with your superiors about a raise..

Try showing genuine gratitude first. The person you will likely be talking to about a raise probably vouched for you and put their own professional reputation behind you just so you could take the test.


----------



## Golden Eagle PE

My boss told me the salary range I would be making once I passed. So there is not much negotiating now except where I will fall in that range. It is a nice bump too.


----------



## Darkness07

Local government job = 5% raise... IF the city council approves the budget AND compensation committee agrees.

*sigh*


----------



## I M A PE

acethepemd said:


> How many of you guys demanded pay raise after getting the PE license and really got the salary raise?


I've never had a boss who would have responded positively to a demand for more money. Everytime I've ever seen anybody draw a line in the sand, including when I'm the boss in question, it's ended badly for the employee. If you dare someone to show you the door, they often will. My question to an employee who made a demand for money would have been "or what, you'll leave? Need a few boxes?"

Gratitude will get you much farther. The first thing I did when I passed was send a thank you email to my boss and to the owner of the company for footing the bill for the exam as well as a review course. No mention of money. If I hadn't gotten the raise, I would have sat back and waited and probably not brought it up for several months (unique to my situation of just having gotten a raise). If you feel you're being treated so badly that you have to demand money, then a demand is even less likely to help. You should be out there looking for a new job. When you have an offer in hand that you're considering... then you might ask for a raise. Even then, I wouldn't word it as a demand (unless you like burning bridges) and I wouldn't say anything about the offer in hand. The offer is there as a parachute in case you're not satisfied with what your employer is willing to do.

Ultimately, how much the PE is worth is going to matter on industry, the particular work you're doing, and local supply and demand for engineers.


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

I just got 19% in Jan 2014 after passing PE. ^^^


----------



## I M A PE

altheablue, what's your company's bill rate for your services? In my company, the rough rule of thumb (open secret) is that the bill rate needs to be at least salary x 3.2. So take your bill rate, divide by 3.2, multiply by 2080. That's what my company would assume they could afford to pay you.

So if they bill you out at $160/hour, that translates to a max of $104,000 plus benefits.


----------



## I M A PE

..the only thing is that I think my firm feels they have some leverage because they know how much I value working at home, and I will probably not be able to set that up somewhere else (not right off the bat, at least)


They probably do have some leverage because of that. How much is it worth to you? If they offered you $90k but said you'd have to be in the office 5 days a week, would you take it? All of these things need to be looked at holistically. I'd probably take a $15k CUT to work at home. Of course... my commute is 75 miles round trip and I probably spend $10k on commuting expenses.


----------



## TehMightyEngineer

Good discussion here, really has me thinking a lot about my employment.

Assuming I pass the SE (which gets me a PE in my state) I'll probably be severely underpaid. Currently I've got 6+ years of structural and industrial civil experience but am only making about $48k per year. However, I do work for a GREAT small company and am getting LOADS of project manager/senior engineer job experience I know I couldn't get anywhere else under a brilliant, experienced engineer/mentor. Still, I really think I'm going to have to talk to my boss if I pass when I pass my license exam. Sounds like he has to start offering me more incentive to stay as I'd take a little bit less of a nice working environment for a 30% or more jump in pay.

Now all I need to do is pass the stupid exam.


----------



## ############01

Interesting formula....I'm $140 so $91k. And working at home is worth a lot to me, but NOT $31k (given that I'm currently at just under $60k). You're right-working at home very well be worth a $15k concession. I bought a new car in January (very practical, nothing fancy) and I've filled the tank maybe 4 times. That is valuable to me.

I was actually considering that I'd like to end up at about $75k after my mid-year review. So that makes sense. I guess it just feels uncomfortable to be asking for 25%+ raise.


----------



## I M A PE

That rule for 5%-7% a year is crap. That is a convenient excuse to tell employees who are underpaid. If your responsibilities and qualifications grow over the years, there is no way that 7% can keep up with both inflation and market value for a top performer. I don't think you'd be laughed out of the room for asking for $90k. In fact, that's what I'd go in with asking for. Just keep in mind that it might be close to the very max they have in the budget for you and you have the convenience of working from home. Maybe if you walk out of there with $75k-$80k everybody wins. Here's why I say screw the percentages, keep the discussion about absolute $ in your situation:

If you're 80% billable at $140, that's about $225k in revenue for your company. Your salary and benefits are probably costing MAX 50% above your salary. If you're making $90k, you cost them no more than $135k a year. They're making 67% margin on your time. Yes, they have some overhead but that's a lot of margin. At your current $60k salary the margin is 150%! And they can only manage a 7% raise? B.S. Dude, if they won't give you more, strike out on your own, hang your shingle. Take clients away from them and charge $90/hour. You'll keep working from home and if you keep billing 80% of your time, you'll make $144k a year AND if you keep your clients happy, you'll be able to raise your rates. Or... start looking for another job. Seriously... a P.E. making &lt;$75k is hard for me to wrap my head around, especially one being billed out at $140/hour. 

What field are you in?


----------



## StarPE

man, i would be grateful to receive 10-15k. my last 3% raise had me all sorts of confused. my job role/title shd command at least 25k more. Now that I have my PE, I will be evaluating my options. Congrats to those that passed AND have received compensation


----------



## Predgw

I'm looking at a 6% raise if approved. However I was recently( within the last year) promoted due to outstanding evaluations so that was another 6% increase, so I'm pretty happy with just over 12% in a year.


----------



## ############01

good info and perspectives, thanks everyone. i tend to undervalue myself in many areas of life....maybe its time to be more of a dude (sorry, gender stereotype)

I'm enviro. Mostly compliance, with some remediation and phase 2 work and an occasional phase I. Clients are mostly private equity types, some big industrial accounts, almost no gov't work


----------



## Ivory

altheablue18 said:


> I am still just under the 60k mark and just passed. I work from home but for a medium sized firm. I am a "senior engineer", manage multiple projects and do mostly project work (80% billable which is really good at my firm) , but also sell an amount that puts me in probably the second or third tier of sales people in the company. My firm's employee pool is &lt;10% PEs; there aren't many. I'm also just a really hard worker, other than during PE results week (heehee).
> 
> That said, now that the PE license will soon be a reality (I already sent the check on Tuesday, right after I saw that little green PASS), I am wondering what will be a reasonable but aggressive request. I'd like to pre-empt them coming to me. Based on past experience, my boss usually comes to me with a big thanks/congratulations about mid-year, tells me how great he thinks I am, and then tells me that based on my stellar performance he's gotten me a raise....but then the actual raise turns out to be pretty unimpressive, in the 4-6% range. I have been given the strong impression that this amount is at the top end of the raises that others in the company get-most havent been getting raises at all, and those who do get a raise are maxing out at 5-7%.
> 
> As a side story: I have a good friend with a couple years more experience than me, who used to work at my firm in the same capacity as me, at about the same salary level (slightly higher due to the experience). He doesnt have an engineering degree, let alone a PE, but he does similar work. He was (self-admittedly) lazy in college but is very sharp. He interviewed with a competitor two years ago and they then asked him salary requirements. He walked out the door and into the new firm with just under $90k. Now he is making six figures. That makes me hope I can ask for 20% or more without being laughed at.....the only thing is that I think my firm feels they have some leverage because they know how much I value working at home, and I will probably not be able to set that up somewhere else (not right off the bat, at least)




- Recent engineering college grads with no experience are getting 60K +

- 5-7% pay raise when your salary is low is not much. Do not forget that working from home saves the employer office space and other costs.

- If you have a PE and I am assuming you have 5 + years experience, then you need to be asking for $100K at the minimum. By accepting a low salary you not only short change yourself but hurt the salaries of other engineers. My advice is to not give away your services at a cheap price.


----------



## qiudogcool

I have almost 3 years of experience, a MS degree in EE, I am making about 66K . Does this seem fair?

Are you mostly paid hourly or salary? I am paid hourly. I am a communications engineer. How many hours do you work every week on average? I plant to take PE this October and hopefully apply for the license next fall.


----------



## crunchercrunch

qiudogcool said:


> I have almost 3 years of experience, a MS degree in EE, I am making about 66K . Does this seem fair?
> 
> Are you mostly paid hourly or salary? I am paid hourly. I am a communications engineer. How many hours do you work every week on average? I plant to take PE this October and hopefully apply for the license next fall.






you're getting shafted. i have a BS and am making more than that. grab your pitchfork dude you deserve more


----------



## qiudogcool

How many years of experience do you have?


----------



## crunchercrunch

i had about 1.5 when i got the bump to my current level


----------



## iwire

I just started with the company like less than a year ago but I did get my raise 4-5% raise on my 6 months into the company ..back in Nov, 2013..I started in Apr, 2013 but typically from past exp you don't raise until at least 1 year. i passed my PE on Thursday, my boss told me, I get an instant bump of 5% effective June 1, 2014. Also, I will look out for the year Oct-Nov 2014 review ..hopefully 7%-10%...would be nice since I fulfilled my goals LOL

But man...some of you guys are making way too low for PE...even in smaller town

oh...my old company offering me a job since found out my passing of PE


----------



## Ivory

If engineers are required to take a negotiation class in college, their salaries will be much higher. The problem we have is engineers do not understand their true value and settle for less. The only reason lawyers and real estate agents command high salaries/commissions is because they know how to negotiate and not the value they bring.

Engineers bring "true" value. They deserve to be compensated as such. In today's market, it is not what you are worth, it is more like what you can negotiate. If we as engineers learn the negotiation skill then we will be valued appropriately and command the high salaries we deserve.


----------



## ############01

Ok. Based on the research I've done elsewhere and these replies, I'm convinced. It does appear I am seriously underpaid, by at least 15k or maybe 2x that amount.

any tips on how to bring this up then? As I mentioned, I work from home; however I do talk to my immediate supervisor about various projects almost daily, sometimes multiple times per day. I'll be visiting the home office (not where my direct supervisor is based, but where our department VP is based, as well as CEO et cetera) this week. We have some project work to talk about and were also just planning on generally catching up since we havent been in the same room together in 3 years. I was thinking that I'd broach this with supervisor early in the week by phone, mention that I'd like to have a discussion with VP while I'm in the office, and then bring it up in person when I'm with VP at the end of the week. (dont want to go over anyone's head, but supervisor doesnt really have a say in any $; he just makes recommendations based on my performance.)

Is this approach reasonable? How do I start the conversation? Should I put something in writing to list out my various reasons for thinking I am deserving of a significant increase?


----------



## iwire

Actually someone told me before, if required to go out find a job, went through the whole interview process so you could counteroffer to your present company, then it's time to move on...

my first job, everyone that I worked with was really good. I learned a lot during the process but I was way underpaid, but I ended up stay way too long that I expected...after I left that company in good term, my salary has almost 3 times within 6-7 years time frame


----------



## Ship Wreck PE

altheablue18 said:


> Ok. Based on the research I've done elsewhere and these replies, I'm convinced. It does appear I am seriously underpaid, by at least 15k or maybe 2x that amount.
> 
> any tips on how to bring this up then? As I mentioned, I work from home; however I do talk to my immediate supervisor about various projects almost daily, sometimes multiple times per day. I'll be visiting the home office (not where my direct supervisor is based, but where our department VP is based, as well as CEO et cetera) this week. We have some project work to talk about and were also just planning on generally catching up since we havent been in the same room together in 3 years. I was thinking that I'd broach this with supervisor early in the week by phone, mention that I'd like to have a discussion with VP while I'm in the office, and then bring it up in person when I'm with VP at the end of the week. (dont want to go over anyone's head, but supervisor doesnt really have a say in any $; he just makes recommendations based on my performance.)
> 
> Is this approach reasonable? How do I start the conversation? Should I put something in writing to list out my various reasons for thinking I am deserving of a significant increase?


I sent out an email to CEO and copied president and direct supervisor. I asked for am employee evaluation meeting, and they all knew what was going on. Got 20% and 4 weeks vacation.


----------



## Predgw

Wow, 20% raise. Where were you at?

Where do you live?

Geography has a lot to do with pay scales.


----------



## solomonb

Colleagues-- Let me share some ideas that may be of benefit to each of you-- we work this question hard with many of our clients when they seek executive coaching-- something that we do, very well!

It is only natural to want more money, especially when you pass the PE exam, hear a colleague share what he/she is making, etc. Engineers are naturally a non confrontational bunch, so wanting to "argue" or "get in to a 'tough conversation' is not natural for an engineer! It is not.

If you think that you are underpaid-- get some data-- data does not lie and engineers can understand data. OK, where? Well, the web is a good place to start. NSPE put out a salary survey last year that is cut and diced about 200 different ways. See what the market is bearing your particular locale. You need to have a rich gameplan to present BEFORE you broach this question with your immediate supervisor.

Location, type of work, office culture/envirionment, responsibility, degrees, certifications, registration (maybe multiple states) are all factors that you need to review and analyze, in spreadsheet format. The numbers are available, you just have to go find them.

The working from home ability is worth a lot to many people. Sure, you may be making less than someone else, however, having the freedom and flexibility to be at home is worth LOTS to many people. Don't forget that. Now, if you want to go back to the cubicle farm with a boss Like Dilbert's, well, then, that may be the price for receiving more money!

We strongly recommend that you burnish your resume up and float it. Take some interviews and see what the area has to offer. Now, you may get an offer. If you do, then you need to think real hard about the offer as well as going to talk to your boss. We always recommend that you talk to the boss to see what he/she is willing to do to accommodate the new offer. However, if you like the culture, environment, projects, colleagues that you are working with, it may be much different at a new place. That is a point to consider.

Money is usually about 5th down on the list of wants/needs for an employee. A stimulating, challenging work environment, great equipment and freedom are all factors that most folks desire more than just pure money.

Rest assured that if you are making $65K and like what you do and are offered $124K and are stressed out, frazzled and hate to get up in the morning, irrespective of kicking the dog and kissing the spouse, you will wish that you kept the $65K job. Trust me, I have been there!

The idea to "go hang out a shingle and take some clients" sounds great-- of course, as a professional engineer, it is a violation of engineering ethics to 'take other clients', just a point to consider The "hanging out a shingle" is much more complicated than it sounds-- oh, I know, it looks easy and simple. Trust me, nothing could be farther from the truth-- we consult in that area as well.

Changing companies and moving can be stimulating for some and super stressful for others-- something else to consider. If you like change and thrive in chaos, go for it. If you prefer steady and forward, moving might be perplexing-- again, something to consider.

Questions, just ask.


----------



## ############01

you know, i was thinking about this more today as i was out for a run. and I think i may have given a false impression about the work at home thing. It has definite perks but I wouldnt say I have much 'flexibility.' I am still expected to be online during all working hours and we have constant IM communication so I'm essentially watched from 7am to 5pm. If the neighbor stops by I don't answer the door, because it might end up for me being away from my desk long enough that my screen blows up and my phone has 16 messages. And I rarely work less than a 10 hour day; frequently its a 12 hour day. I also travel quite a bit. My typical week is 60 hours plus (salary, no overtime here). So yeah, I don't have a commute, and I don't have to wear a suit. But its not like I'm taking afternoon naps or doing laundry or taking 2 hour lunches. If anything, since I left the office 3 years ago to start working from home, I work harder and longer.

It would hurt to go back to the cube farm but as I see it, I could probably get a pretty cushy 9-5 government job at my current salary-one where I wouldnt be working weekends and where I could actually go out after work for drinks from time to time. That doesn't happen in my current consulting environment. I'm starting to think I've made too many concessions on the work at home thing, and now its time to stop feeling guilty and start asserting myself more.


----------



## solomonb

Yes, academic research confirms that you work longer and harder at home. Part of it is the "guilt" complex and part of it is what you state, "they are watching me." That sucks, however, that is the way your company seems to work. Working from home has some real advantages, including doing the laundry, talking to the neighbor and wearing PJ's all day, however, if the leash is so tight that none of that is possible, then you have to decide if it is worth it.

Float your resume, do some research, see what the market will bear and go for it. When you get a new offer, have a chat with the pointy haired boss, (Dilbert's boss). See what he says. If you don't like the answer, pull the rip cord and jump to the new opportunity. No reason to wait around-- pull the rip cord and go. Might be the best thing that ever happened to you.


----------



## cali78

You have to look out for number 1, nobody will. Companies play many games to keep engineer's salaries low, such as creating no poaching agreements with other companies. Look at the class action lawsuit against Google and Apple which cost them $324 million for playing games with engineer's salaries. I think engineer's should avoid working for companies that play games to keep engineer's salaries suppressed.


----------



## Thomasee

These companies should understand better. The US is a free market system. Our economic system is capitalism, not socialism. Companies that are suppressing engineer's wages by secretly having agreements not to poach or other methods should not be let off so easy with a small fine. $324 million is too small a fine for hurting the engineering profession.


----------



## I M A PE

altheablue18 said:


> Ok. Based on the research I've done elsewhere and these replies, I'm convinced. It does appear I am seriously underpaid, by at least 15k or maybe 2x that amount.
> 
> any tips on how to bring this up then? As I mentioned, I work from home; however I do talk to my immediate supervisor about various projects almost daily, sometimes multiple times per day. I'll be visiting the home office (not where my direct supervisor is based, but where our department VP is based, as well as CEO et cetera) this week. We have some project work to talk about and were also just planning on generally catching up since we havent been in the same room together in 3 years. I was thinking that I'd broach this with supervisor early in the week by phone, mention that I'd like to have a discussion with VP while I'm in the office, and then bring it up in person when I'm with VP at the end of the week. (dont want to go over anyone's head, but supervisor doesnt really have a say in any $; he just makes recommendations based on my performance.)
> 
> Is this approach reasonable? How do I start the conversation? Should I put something in writing to list out my various reasons for thinking I am deserving of a significant increase?


I think that approach is perfectly reasonable. I think you start it just as you describe. Confident, matter of fact, but not cocky. You know you're worth more, they know you're worth more, you'd like to discuss it. That's simple and very professional. They may not be willing to pay you more and you have to understand that ultimately you cannot convince them to pony up. All you can do is state your case, calmly, cooly, and confidently. They will do what they will. If they don't pony up, you know what your options are and you get to choose which one's you'll explore.

Your employer owns your job. You own your career.


----------



## I M A PE

solomonb said:


> Colleagues-- Let me share some ideas that may be of benefit to each of you-- we work this question hard with many of our clients when they seek executive coaching-- something that we do, very well!
> 
> It is only natural to want more money, especially when you pass the PE exam, hear a colleague share what he/she is making, etc. Engineers are naturally a non confrontational bunch, so wanting to "argue" or "get in to a 'tough conversation' is not natural for an engineer! It is not.
> 
> If you think that you are underpaid-- get some data-- data does not lie and engineers can understand data. OK, where? Well, the web is a good place to start. NSPE put out a salary survey last year that is cut and diced about 200 different ways. See what the market is bearing your particular locale. You need to have a rich gameplan to present BEFORE you broach this question with your immediate supervisor.
> 
> Location, type of work, office culture/envirionment, responsibility, degrees, certifications, registration (maybe multiple states) are all factors that you need to review and analyze, in spreadsheet format. The numbers are available, you just have to go find them.
> 
> The working from home ability is worth a lot to many people. Sure, you may be making less than someone else, however, having the freedom and flexibility to be at home is worth LOTS to many people. Don't forget that. Now, if you want to go back to the cubicle farm with a boss Like Dilbert's, well, then, that may be the price for receiving more money!
> 
> We strongly recommend that you burnish your resume up and float it. Take some interviews and see what the area has to offer. Now, you may get an offer. If you do, then you need to think real hard about the offer as well as going to talk to your boss. We always recommend that you talk to the boss to see what he/she is willing to do to accommodate the new offer. However, if you like the culture, environment, projects, colleagues that you are working with, it may be much different at a new place. That is a point to consider.
> 
> Money is usually about 5th down on the list of wants/needs for an employee. A stimulating, challenging work environment, great equipment and freedom are all factors that most folks desire more than just pure money.
> 
> Rest assured that if you are making $65K and like what you do and are offered $124K and are stressed out, frazzled and hate to get up in the morning, irrespective of kicking the dog and kissing the spouse, you will wish that you kept the $65K job. Trust me, I have been there!
> 
> The idea to "go hang out a shingle and take some clients" sounds great-- of course, as a professional engineer, it is a violation of engineering ethics to 'take other clients', just a point to consider The "hanging out a shingle" is much more complicated than it sounds-- oh, I know, it looks easy and simple. Trust me, nothing could be farther from the truth-- we consult in that area as well.
> 
> Changing companies and moving can be stimulating for some and super stressful for others-- something else to consider. If you like change and thrive in chaos, go for it. If you prefer steady and forward, moving might be perplexing-- again, something to consider.
> 
> Questions, just ask.


I agree with almost all of this except for 2 points. It's my personal opinion that you should not ever go to your current employer with a competing offer to use it as a negotiating tool. If you do, and if you stay in your current job, you have tipped your hand that you're looking and unless your boss is a moron, he's going to start figuring out how to live without you (i.e. replace you) because you have told him you have one foot out the door already. There is a chance that he won't but do you really want to be looking over your shoulder for months or years? If business goes south and they have to lay off a few engineers, are you going to worry that you're on the top of the list?

I very much like the idea of having an offer in your pocket but I wouldn't disclose it. IF you have it, then it gives you the upper hand in negotiations even though your boss isn't even aware of it. You will be willing to say "that's not good enough you've got my two weeks notice" if they won't budge. If you're willing to say it, then you are already better prepared for negotiation. You won't hem and haw or settle for some measly 3% attaboy that you really won't be happy with. You'll walk into the room knowing exactly what you are willing to accept and what you won't. You'll have the power that comes with having a choice. If you walk in there without so much as having your resume floating around with recruiters, then what choice will you have but to accepts 3%.... or 0%?

Secondly, also IMO (but from experience), if you have established contacts and can find one or two good clients, it certainly not impossible to strike out on your own. Intimidating? Yes. Risky? Maybe. Riskier than withering on the vine at a $65k job where your company is billing $250k? Maybe not. That's up to you but (from experience) it certainly isn't impossible. And while it would be unethical to use information that you learned on the job against your employer and unethical/illegal to break any non-compete agreements that you have, it certainly IS NOT unethical to compete (as long as you're not under a non-compete) and not unethical to reach out to contacts that you have made along the way. Just be sure to not walk out the door with any proprietary information.


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## I M A PE

altheablue18 said:


> It would hurt to go back to the cube farm but as I see it, I could probably get a pretty cushy 9-5 government job at my current salary-one where I wouldnt be working weekends and where I could actually go out after work for drinks from time to time. That doesn't happen in my current consulting environment. I'm starting to think I've made too many concessions on the work at home thing, and now its time to stop feeling guilty and start asserting myself more.


And you'd probably have a good pension plan after 20 years on that cushy government job. Honestly, I'm not hearing a whole lot of reasons for you not to be looking. Not one except "it's easy to stay put". I've been there. I think everybody has. But I also don't know anybody who didn't eventually move on and say "I should have left sooner".

I've had my ups and downs. I've had the $140k job where I was frazzled and essentially on call 24/7 as a VP of engineering. I should have left that job two years before I did. I ended up at a job in a different engineering field and as a result dropping to $75k. I am a thousand times happier and moving back up quickly. If I've learned nothing else, I've learned when to recognize the signs that it's time to move on. If you're asking yourself the questions you're asking, it's time to be looking.


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## JoeyPinoy

knight1fox3 said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> Folks, there is no money in the PE. It is how it is and that is the bottom line. If you are doing it for the money you are up for a rude awakening. Saying something different is just a sales pitch.
> 
> 
> 
> I respectfully disagree. There is great money to be made in engineering. And the work is very rewarding IMO. It's all about what you think you are worth and convincing your employer of this accordingly. You're only worth what you settle for in getting paid by your employer. Want a higher wage? Then you have to go get it and make it happen! I've more than doubled my salary since I graduated from my undergraduate program. And that did not happen by staying put in my first engineering position.
Click to expand...





I see both sides. On one hand, choosing a profession based on salary considerations is both practical and to be expected. For instance, the relatively low salaries offered to elementary school teachers is a constraint to attracting top talent. The upper middle class salaries offered by the engineering profession is a blessing, all things considered.

On the other hand, if your consideration is ONLY to make as much money as humanly possible, I'd suggest becoming an entrepreneur or get in the profession of managing OPM (other people's money). In other words, survey the Forbes 400 (href='http://www.forbes.com/forbes-400/list/)%C2'&gt; emulate the people featured.


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## ############01

Regarding most recent comments about engineering salary. I see engineering as a very common sense choice for someone with a restrained risk tolerance-the typical engineering personality! I chose engineering not to get rich, but to provide a reliably comfortable salary. I have 2 siblings, one a public school teacher (summers off), and one a 'musician' who has a rock star life. I've made sacrifices as part of a calculated life strategy. I work longer and harder than my siblings, and did so in college also (I would expect most people recognize that the engineering curriculum is tougher than say, the teaching curriculum). I work longer hours, and I have less 'fun' in the course of my day than my siblings. They have less stress. They payoff is I make more money. Not bags of money. Just more money, and reliably, consistently. My siblings are also intelligent, but they chose a different route based on different values and priorities.

Regarding the main topic at hand, I really, really appreciate the feedback I've received in this forum. I was actually in home office last week and had a rare opportunity to sit down with my group's VP to discuss general state of things (a number of things really). I let her know directly that I wanted to discuss salary adjustment, and she was totally expecting it. I gave her a number ($85k) and her comment was that they may not be able to get me all the way there, but they might be able to get me close with a combo of raise/bonus and other perks. I need to discuss with my direct report but there are a number of things going on at my company right now that complicate things. Still, mid-year review time is around the corner, typical raise time, so the conversation wont fall flat with a "let me think about it." I will come back with a report when something actually happens, but that is where we left it. I at least feel better that I have proactively addressed it and put a number out there.


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## StarPE

thats good to hear! I wish you luck. for me, i'm going to have to move to get what I want


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## I M A PE

altheablue18 said:


> Regarding most recent comments about engineering salary. I see engineering as a very common sense choice for someone with a restrained risk tolerance-the typical engineering personality! I chose engineering not to get rich, but to provide a reliably comfortable salary. I have 2 siblings, one a public school teacher (summers off), and one a 'musician' who has a rock star life. I've made sacrifices as part of a calculated life strategy. I work longer and harder than my siblings, and did so in college also (I would expect most people recognize that the engineering curriculum is tougher than say, the teaching curriculum). I work longer hours, and I have less 'fun' in the course of my day than my siblings. They have less stress. They payoff is I make more money. Not bags of money. Just more money, and reliably, consistently. My siblings are also intelligent, but they chose a different route based on different values and priorities.
> 
> Regarding the main topic at hand, I really, really appreciate the feedback I've received in this forum. I was actually in home office last week and had a rare opportunity to sit down with my group's VP to discuss general state of things (a number of things really). I let her know directly that I wanted to discuss salary adjustment, and she was totally expecting it. I gave her a number ($85k) and her comment was that they may not be able to get me all the way there, but they might be able to get me close with a combo of raise/bonus and other perks. I need to discuss with my direct report but there are a number of things going on at my company right now that complicate things. Still, mid-year review time is around the corner, typical raise time, so the conversation wont fall flat with a "let me think about it." I will come back with a report when something actually happens, but that is where we left it. I at least feel better that I have proactively addressed it and put a number out there.


Very good work. It's good to set your expectations prior to the review, like you have, so that they have time to consider and cannot make excuses as you've pointed out. You've also set the bar for your expectation and it sounds like they value you and will work with you. Your VP did two things and taken together, they are positive, IMO. First, she said that they'd try. Second, she managed your expectations to make it clear there were no promises. The first is clearly positive. The second is not a negative. It's a normal part of negotiation it's her job to keep her options open so they can consider. Good stuff. I'm a big believer is taking small wins at every opportunity for a raise, if you can get an extra 0.5% just because you asked for it, it'll add up over time. The magic of compounding works for raises too, not just the stock market and credit card debt.


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## cajone5

I M A PE said:


> Secondly, also IMO (but from experience), if you have established contacts and can find one or two good clients, it certainly not impossible to strike out on your own. Intimidating? Yes. Risky? Maybe. Riskier than withering on the vine at a $65k job where your company is billing $250k? Maybe not. That's up to you but (from experience) it certainly isn't impossible. And while it would be unethical to use information that you learned on the job against your employer and unethical/illegal to break any non-compete agreements that you have, it certainly IS NOT unethical to compete (as long as you're not under a non-compete) and not unethical to reach out to contacts that you have made along the way. Just be sure to not walk out the door with any proprietary information.




Regarding a non-compete contract... it's only worth what they pay you to sign it. In most cases this is typically $0. So they can pretty much be disregarded when you terminate your employment. As long as you are not doing anything unethical (ex: bad mouthing your previous employer, stealing company software/codes/reference/etc. or some other silly thing) you cannot be held to the non-compete. How can someone tell you that you cannot work without compensating you for it? In short, they cannot. Yes there is a very small chance your previous employer may decide to go to litigation over it but the simple fact is countless cases stand as precedent and the end takeaway is "*a non-compete is only worth what they pay you to sign it*".

Keep this in mind when considering forging your own path and being your own boss. Your employer will try to hold it over your head but you can sleep soundly knowing this simple fact.


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## JB66money

I work at a utility, I make decent pay, but I don't feel appreciated. I have been working with the company for over 5 years and I have not been promoted from an entry level engineering position. I worked 2 years in one department in which I felt appreciated, but I was involuntarily transferred to another department in which I worked for three years. I passed the FE on the first attempt in October 2010 and I just passed the PE exam on the first attempt this April 2014. I took the PE exam to prove to myself that I am a competent engineer. I just recently voluntarily transferred to another department within my company after three years of working in the second department. However, I still don't feel appreciated although I now have my PE and no one in my new department has theirs including my supervisor. My former supervisor was a verbally abusive micro-manager, who does not evaluate his employees fairly. Everyone in his group does the same amount and kind of work regardless of a person's experience. There was a time in which I was the only entry level engineer in my former department and I did not receive any training. I taught myself everything that I needed to know in order to do my job because my former supervisor would get angry if I ask him question. Within one year I was able to do all of my essential duties without any help, but even after three years I still did not get a promotion. So far even with 5 years of experience and learning a lot and now passing the PE exam, I am still an entry level engineer. I am considering looking for another job outside of the utility industry.​
​


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## Ship Wreck PE

I think all jobs kinda sux in one way or another.

I know mine has its days.

The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill


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## Lumber Jim

Ship Wreck PE said:


> I think all jobs kinda sux in one way or another.
> 
> I know mine has its days.
> 
> The grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill


ahhh, but sometimes it is... if you are willing to accept what you stated and acknowledge that some places do actually suck less.


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## cajone5

@JB66money

I was in the same boat. 2+ years pre-grad experience (internships, co-ops and summer jobs in grad school). 5 years post-grad experience. FE, PE and SE (exam passed... still waiting on IL to process my paperwork... 6 months and counting)... BSCE, MSCE half-way through Ph.D.

Up until 6 months ago I was *still* an entry level employee. Fortunately at my yearly review they asked us to write a "cover letter" describing what we do and requesting promotion if you think it's warranted. I requested a promotion to 2 levels above my current (at the time) position. This allowed me an easy opportunity to express my opinion on my skills and abilities and where I though I best fit in the company. After discussing with my boss(es) and hearing their side, I was promoted one level and given about a 9% raise. Now I'm happier but I'm still not happy. Fortunately, I have made it clear what I want and where I believe I am qualified to be. They only held me back for one reason and that was something that is out of my control unfortunately. If I am still here in a year and I do not get promoted, I will be leaving. It's not worth being undervalued. You should seek an employer who values your skills and abilities and wants to see you grow and succeed. If they selfishly hold you back to get cheap labor it's time to get out.

My advice is find a way to discuss and explain to them where you think you should be (based on education, experience, licenses, responsibility, etc.). Maybe they're oblivious? Maybe they're so mired down in other things they haven't given it much thought? Maybe there are budget or organizational issues that can't accommodate a promotion for you? Maybe they're awful human beings who hate you and want to hold you back? Who knows? Until you discuss this with them, you can only make assumptions about their motives. Start the conversation and see where it takes you. Just be prepared with *reasons* why you deserve a promotion. Being around for a long time isn't worth much. Added responsibility, education, licenses, etc. hold much more weight in this type of discussion than time spent.

Good luck.


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## E2R41L

Mike, you ever get that bump you were looking for?


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## NJmike PE

I did. over the summer I went in and asked for a raise and got a 4% pay bump. That coupled with the initial 3% raise put me at 7% increase for the year. I figure to get a pay bump in December too just based on the past.


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## iwire

NJmike PE said:


> I did. over the summer I went in and asked for a raise and got a 4% pay bump. That coupled with the initial 3% raise put me at 7% increase for the year. I figure to get a pay bump in December too just based on the past.


good for you...don't under short sale you.


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## Ivory

The best way to know your true value is to float your resume in the market. See what bites. You may wind up with an offer you cannot resist. Why settle for the crumbs your present employer throws your way?


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## Ships

Bumpity Bump.

Admin, Shouldn't this be moved to the Anything about the PE exam section?

Any updates on raises people received? I work for the Government so they don't really care haha


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## CE_Gator

Mo money mo problems


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## CE_Gator

Ships said:


> Bumpity Bump.
> 
> Admin, Shouldn't this be moved to the Anything about the PE exam section?
> 
> Any updates on raises people received? I work for the Government so they don't really care haha




I work for a publicly owned utility which is highly unionized. There are no pay raises for getting you PE or other certifications or getting more education. They only give raises according to seniority and time with the company. So you have people that just have a high school degree with no other certifications or training that have been with the company for 15 to 20 years making more than an engineer with a Masters and several certifications with 5 to 10 years experience.


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## electricalPickles PE

CE_Gator said:


> Ships said:
> 
> 
> 
> Bumpity Bump.
> 
> Admin, Shouldn't this be moved to the Anything about the PE exam section?
> 
> Any updates on raises people received? I work for the Government so they don't really care haha
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I work for a publicly owned utility which is highly unionized. There are no pay raises for getting you PE or other certifications or getting more education. They only give raises according to seniority and time with the company. So you have people that just have a high school degree with no other certifications or training that have been with the company for 15 to 20 years making more than an engineer with a Masters and several certifications with 5 to 10 years experience.
Click to expand...

Whaaaaaaaaat? That makes no sense, they don't even consider qualifications? I'd probably get out of there as soon as possible. I can't believe a publicly owned utility would do this, I know quite a few and none of them are even remotely similar to this!


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## iwire

Since I passed my PE, I am living large. I bought a yacht, and mansion and have a hot Russian blonde girlfriend (granted is mail order  0


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## Ramnares P.E.

CE_Gator I'm in exactly the same situation. There are folks with only a high school degree making six figure salaries because they have been with the company 20 years whereas engineers such as myself, 10 years experience with 2 Master's degrees and a PE license aren't even near that.


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## smilestar

*BS Civil Engineer*

*5 years experience &amp; PE **license*

*Michigan*

I work for a mid size company, got my PE this October. I am making about 52k/yr, told my boss about PE but no response about the raise or promotion yet.

I have not got a raise in 2 years. After our lead traffic engineer left earlier last year, I took the lead role with no change in salary. I will have a review this week, would appreciate any suggestions


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## Tim_Nelson

> I will have a review this week, would appreciate any suggestions




In my experience, it's easier to get a raise by switching companies than by waiting for the typical 3% raise (or less) each year.

But if you like your current employer, consider getting a higher offer elsewhere and then negotiate with your current employer, in a professional and polite manner. Not practical in just 1 week, but advice for the future.


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## Ramnares P.E.

Smilestar here are some ideas for your consideration:

1. Research online what engineers with similar education, experience, and certifications are making in your area. BLS.gov is a good starting point. General Google searches work as well.

2. If you had performance reviews in the last three years find them. If your reviews for the two years where you got no raise were either satisfactory or exceptional, you should raise that as an issue.

3. Since you have adopted a position of greater responsibility, if you are performing that adequately then you have a valid argument for a raise.

4. Your position of greater responsibility coupled with your recent PE license should be strong arguments in your favor.

5. Regarding Tim's advice, I don't agree with forcing your employer to make counteroffers. If you are seriously thinking of moving on to another job, then do so and negotiate appropriately.


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## Ramnares P.E.

I do agree with Tim that generally you will only get a double digit raise by switching companies...


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## smilestar

Thanks Ramnares and Tim, really appreciate it 

Yes, the problem is I don't want to switch company though, I like my immediate supervisor

and its closer to my house, very convenient. But salary is the hands of upper management.


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