# Passed PE in April... stuck in a quandary



## Gomer (Nov 10, 2007)

Hi all.

I passed my PE in April (great right?) I passed in large part, due to material in these forums. Thanks!

I still have not applied for my license.

The company I work for is small. There was never any "push" for me to get me PE though they did know I was taking the exam. I did it entirely on my dime and my time including the "vacation" day to take the test.

At the moment I am under-compensated. Maybe grossly so. I have no reason to believe that will change with PE after my name, and a lot of reasons to believe that it won't.

As such, I haven't applied for my license. I don't want the additional responsibility and liability that comes along with it. The compensation issue is about 65% of it. The other 35% is that the other PE's have done some things that I would consider unethical. It just doesn't feel like a good situation sometimes; and I don't want to have any part of that or wind up getting into a pissing match with somebody over a set of plans I might have to seal.

For those reasons, my license is on hold. I feel as if that if I have it, I will be obligated to use it. Or, to press the issue of why I won't use it. And right now, I feel the status quo is the best option.

I recently applied for another job. During the follow up call, the HR person expressed concern that my degree was from a non-ABET accredited program. I assured her it was and that in fact, I had passed the PE. She asked why I did not have my license and to some extent I yammered (I knew this might be an issue brought up in an interview but not a resume follow-up call, I got caught flat-footed). I said something along the lines of "it has to do with a situation with my present employer". I recovered a bit and told her I could show her that my program was indeed ABET accredited and that I would provide her with confirmation that I had passed the PE. I dropped the info off at their office with a cover letter which included an explanation that I did not have my PE for professional reasons related to my current employment and that I could assure them that I had the required education and professional experience.

I have not heard back (not too surprised really)... and that is very unfortunate. This company would be night and day different from my current employer. It would be a great place to work for many reasons. It seemed like my salvation.

So what do I do about my current situation? Any and all advice would be greatly appreciated. Anything.

One thing I am considering... in order to make an attempt to get an interview with this other company, is to get my LEED AP certification. It is not something I would use in the least at my current employer, but it is something I would eventually like to focus on. The company I am looking at seems to be pretty involved with it and I am guessing it would shuffle me to the top of the pile again. $350 for the test; maybe what, $150-$200 for materials and a solid week of studying, I think I could nail it. If anything, it will make me feel better about myself. $500 isn't chump change. Not to me anyway.

Thanks in advance for any advice.


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## Guest (Nov 10, 2007)

By the tone of the message it sounds like you are not satisfied with your job. It seems that way regardless of whether you have your license or not.

My recommendation is to apply for your license and not tell your employer if you are that concerned with being coerced into a professional situation you could not support. Your employer does NOT need to know you have recenly obtained licensure. Especially since you are not seeking to increase your responsibility within that job.

While many people will commend you for sticking to your ethics, I don't think they will find your argument for why you haven't applied for licensure very compelling. If you are going to apply for positions that require a P.E. license, I think they are going to want to see the certification up front and any statement other than 1. I am taking the exam/waiting for results or 2. I have applied through reciprocity waiting to hear from the board isn't going to hold much weight with them.

Before you take the LEED AP exam (which I am not discouraging) think hard about how you want to proceed within your current job, your professional licensure, and your conduct towards other potential employers and/or clients. These are all significant factors that will shape your job situation and your career.

I wish you luck. I cannot imagine being in a situation where I FEARED to have a license because of the unethical conduct around me.

Regards,

JR


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## Polysloman (Nov 10, 2007)

employer, but it is something I would eventually like to focus on. The company I am looking at seems to be pretty involved with it and I am guessing it would shuffle me to the top of the pile again. $350 for the test; maybe what, $150-$200 for materials and a solid week of studying, I think I could nail it. If anything, it will make me feel better about myself. $500 isn't chump change. Not to me anyway.


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## IlPadrino (Nov 10, 2007)

Gomer said:


> As such, I haven't applied for my license. I don't want the additional responsibility and liability that comes along with it. The compensation issue is about 65% of it. The other 35% is that the other PE's have done some things that I would consider unethical. It just doesn't feel like a good situation sometimes; and I don't want to have any part of that or wind up getting into a pissing match with somebody over a set of plans I might have to seal.


Gomer,

Here's my two and a half cents (adjusted for inflation!)...

Not knowing what State approved your application to take the test (it wasn't Oregon, because you'd be a PE automatically after passing the test), I can't comment on the legal requirements to handle ethical violations you witness as a PE. I don't want to come across as sanctimonious, but why would *YOUR* ethics be different before or after the PE? If you witness something unethical (regardless of licensure) I think you should address it.

If you're worried that your company will make you do unethical things with your PE, I think you need to leave sooner rather than later regardless of the PE... and as you've seen, it can be easier to find another job with your PE. The PE also gives you LEGAL reasons to object to unethical actions - so I'd see that as a positive in your present employment.

What State approved you to take the exam?


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## Dark Knight (Nov 10, 2007)

Gomer,

There are companies that will try to downgrade you to offer you less money. There is a company in Florida very notorius for doing that. They will start questioning your degree, your experience, and everything they could. Then they will offer you less money than whatever you are making just because they are in Florida and the assumption is that everybody wants to move to the Sunshine State.

Do not let those SOBs do that to you. You are a PE and that is the bottom line. Hold your ground.

Good luck!!!!!


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## Gomer (Nov 10, 2007)

jregieng said:


> By the tone of the message it sounds like you are not satisfied with your job. It seems that way regardless of whether you have your license or not.
> My recommendation is to apply for your license and not tell your employer if you are that concerned with being coerced into a professional situation you could not support. Your employer does NOT need to know you have recenly obtained licensure. Especially since you are not seeking to increase your responsibility within that job.
> 
> While many people will commend you for sticking to your ethics, I don't think they will find your argument for why you haven't applied for licensure very compelling. If you are going to apply for positions that require a P.E. license, I think they are going to want to see the certification up front and any statement other than 1. I am taking the exam/waiting for results or 2. I have applied through reciprocity waiting to hear from the board isn't going to hold much weight with them.
> ...


You're entirely right, I am not satisfied with the job.

My employer will be aware that I have applied because I need to have him fill out an experience verification form. I know I need to get my license, but not how to deal with the fact I don't want to use it.

The position that I had applied for did not require a PE license; it only required 2-5 years experience. I think they were under the impression that my degree was from a non-ABET accredited program and that I would not be eligible for a license.

The ethical issues are not what I would consider very serious, but they aren't exactly trivial. I'd be happy to share some of the circumstances if anyone would like additional details. We have less than a handful of PE's at our office. I am not exactly my concern that I might be forced or encouraged to something unethical, but that they are my source of guidance and I don't have respect for some of the things they have done and can't entirely trust their judgment.



"think hard about how you want to proceed within your current job, your professional licensure, and your conduct towards other potential employers and/or clients."

Exactly! I need to proceed out of my current job. Here in MI, the market is tight; and I am here for at least the next two years.

Thanks for your advice!


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## Gomer (Nov 10, 2007)

IlPadrino said:


> Gomer,
> Here's my two and a half cents (adjusted for inflation!)...
> 
> Not knowing what State approved your application to take the test (it wasn't Oregon, because you'd be a PE automatically after passing the test), I can't comment on the legal requirements to handle ethical violations you witness as a PE. I don't want to come across as sanctimonious, but why would *YOUR* ethics be different before or after the PE? If you witness something unethical (regardless of licensure) I think you should address it.
> ...


I am in MI. See my comments in the post above about the ethical issues. I have addressed it inasmuch as I told the engineer that was doing it that we shouldn't be doing it. The engineer above him is aware he has done it and has given it his tacit approval.

I can't rock the boat much more than I have because I need my job. My solution to this problem is to get the hell out of Dodge. But I am stuck here in a depressed area of Michigan for the next two years. The market is tight.

Bottom line is that it is a bad, unpleasant situation that I need to get myself out of.

Thanks for your advice!


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## IlPadrino (Nov 10, 2007)

Gomer said:


> I am in MI. See my comments in the post above about the ethical issues. I have addressed it inasmuch as I told the engineer that was doing it that we shouldn't be doing it. The engineer above him is aware he has done it and has given it his tacit approval.


In Michigan the State Board will let you sit for the exam without requiring validated experience?

Good luck looking for more rewarding employment!


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## Gomer (Nov 10, 2007)

IlPadrino said:


> In Michigan the State Board will let you sit for the exam without requiring validated experience?
> Good luck looking for more rewarding employment!


They require that you be "pre-approved" to sit for the exam and leave it to the examinee to sign a statement certifying that they have the required experience on the application to sit for the exam. I now have to provide statements from people verifying my experience in order to receive the license.

Thanks for the encouragement!


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## mudpuppy (Nov 11, 2007)

Gomer: what area of MI are you in, what is your discipline, and what is your experience in? I know the job market is tight around here (my mom has been trying to get a job for four years), but less so for engineering--unless you're in automotive or chemical engineering.

BTW, it took four months to get my license from the time I applied; apparently the MI board is really slow. You may want to keep that in mind in your planning (although others on here like Raanne and ALBin517 got their license in much less time--about 6 weeks I think).


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## bigray76 (Nov 12, 2007)

FYI - The LEED pass rate for first time takers is around 30% (per the LEED Coordinator here at my office). As someone who took and passed that test, you really need to know and understand the material - plus the procedural aspects of LEED projects.

If you can do it in a week, my hats off to you. Although I did not attend one, there are day long seminars that go over the entire LEED process and the credits - everyone I know who has been to one of those has found them to be a huge help in passing.

Good luck and let me know if you have any questions about the LEED exam.

-Ray


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## Raanne (Nov 12, 2007)

I totally get the ethical delema - If you get your liscense, then ethically you have to report anything to teh licensing board if someone you work with is doing somethign unethical. obviously this is a problem with your current job.

As is, i would just keep trying for a new job, and let them know that you have passed the PE, and are prepared to apply for your license - perhaps put it in the cover letter?

just out of curiousity - what university did you go to? I thought there were only a few accredited ones around here? or did you go in a different state?

What discipline are you in, and what type of job are you lookign for?

I just passed the PE this april (michigan also), and it took forever from when i sent in my stuff to when i was actually licensed (i.e. given a number, etc.).

Perhaps you can mention your PE / license status in your cover letter, so that they know?


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## Road Guy (Nov 12, 2007)

I would also recommend getting the licensure documents and then its up to you wether you tell your employer that you have the license, do it while its current and probably easier to get the forms filled out.

They cant make you stamp anything, but I imagine they sure can get you to try.


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## Dleg (Nov 12, 2007)

Forget about your worries and apply for the license. Chances are, the person who you were interviewing with at the other company may have thought you were a little weird for not having followed through and applied for your license after passing the exam. They might even take that as a warning sign that you don't follow through on projects and work assigments. :dunno: Not saying that they would think that for sure, but you really should follow through with it. A PE license does open up new opportunities, and there is no reason to stay with your current employer any longer than you have to to get your license in hand.


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## Gomer (Nov 12, 2007)

Raanne said:


> I totally get the ethical delema - If you get your liscense, then ethically you have to report anything to teh licensing board if someone you work with is doing somethign unethical. obviously this is a problem with your current job.
> As is, i would just keep trying for a new job, and let them know that you have passed the PE, and are prepared to apply for your license - perhaps put it in the cover letter?
> 
> just out of curiousity - what university did you go to? I thought there were only a few accredited ones around here? or did you go in a different state?
> ...





mudpuppy said:


> Gomer: what area of MI are you in, what is your discipline, and what is your experience in? I know the job market is tight around here (my mom has been trying to get a job for four years), but less so for engineering--unless you're in automotive or chemical engineering.
> BTW, it took four months to get my license from the time I applied; apparently the MI board is really slow. You may want to keep that in mind in your planning (although others on here like Raanne and ALBin517 got their license in much less time--about 6 weeks I think).


I'll reply to each of you via PM... Ya never know who is perusing these forums and I feel better staying under somewhat of a cloak of anonymity given the circumstances.


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## Wolverine (Nov 13, 2007)

I'm also detecting a serious case of the YehButs... As a fellow YehBut survivor, I can recognize that foul stink anywhere.

Hooray, I passed; YehBut -

- YehBut, I'm underpaid and underappreciated

- YehBut, PE won't change that

- YehBut, what if I get more responsibility?

- YehBut, what if I see something unethical?

- YehBut, I'm stuck here for two years anyway.

- YehBut, what if I can't find a better job?

Dude! You passed! Look at the failure rate! Think of how few even try! You're at the top of your profession! You're among the elite! You're the KING! 10940623: :multiplespotting: :beerchug:

At the risk of sounding NewAge preachy, consider this: We are exactly where we want to be - "equilibrium", for better or worse. Every time something in our lives gets out of balance, for better or worse, our internal machinery sets off behaviors designed to return us to that equilibrium. Sometimes that equilibrium means comfortable misery.

That's what YehButs are. They bring us back down to where we think we should be. Why get out of our comfort zone? Why risk it? What if we fail? The secret is to recognize YehButsfor what they are - dreamkillers. Obstacles we create for ourselves so we can stay comfortably miserable. Then decide to be something better than comfortably miserable.

In true anal-retentive-engineer fashion, I made a list of my YehButs and came up with six, and discovered it was always the same six. So now, when I go to do something challenging that I don't want to do, and I hear a YehBut trying to talk me out of it, I call it out by number, laugh at it, the claws come out and I rip the @$#^%! out of it, then I go take care of business. For me, it's just been a matter of recognizing complacency and then kicking complacency's ass.

:16:

Hope that helps, without sounding too ld-025:


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## Dleg (Nov 13, 2007)

^^That's an awesome speech, Wolverine! I'm going off to list my yehbuts now....


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## bigray76 (Nov 14, 2007)

Excellent Wolverine....

I am going to tweek this a bit and give it to a young engineer here at my company who keeps putting off the EIT (and I know he is smart enough to do it). My boss has given me the challenge of motivating him to get his EIT, pass the LEED, take the PE (down the road a bit) and mentor him from his Junior status, into Staff Level, and ultimately into Senior Level... which by the time I do all of that, he will be ready to take my spot, I will be ready to take my boss' spot, and my boss will be ready to be the big boss in the department.

-Ray


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## Guest (Nov 14, 2007)

I wanted to add my :2cents: that it is a VERY MOTIVATIONAL message. I have been kicking myself over a few things lately and now I am back in the swing of it - no excuses! lusone:

JR


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## Enginnneeer (Nov 15, 2007)

Geez Wolverine, great post! That ranks as the best post for EB. The first part was kinda preachy, though you had me read to the end with your graphics and I am off to number my Yehbuts too...


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## rudy (Nov 21, 2007)

Well said Wolverine :th_rockon:


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