# For those who failed :brickwall:



## whitemdx03 (Dec 27, 2007)

:Failed: That said it all...

I did a little calculation based on my "percent correct" vs. the % of test content. I answered 49.565% of the questions correctly. I've 'heard' that you need to answer atleast 50% correctly to pass, don't know if it true or not. But if it is :brickwall:

Oh well, there is always next time. Hopefully for the better. I am just trying to get an idea of much % correct answer to pass the darn test!


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## SteveB (Dec 27, 2007)

well I looked into this one a little bit.

apparently the correct answer to your question is not a finite number but more like a possible range.

Since they base the scaled score off the 1990 FE exam it really all depends on the majority who pass. That may sound confusing so let me give an example. Say for instance that 50 of the 120 morning questions were questions from the 1990 exam. those 50 questions are the basis for the passing score. Meaning that if a decent chunk pass those questions then you will need a higher percentage. If they do not fair so well then the average will be lower.

That being said, traditionally the actual unscaled range of correct answers is from about 47% passing to 54% passing. I have no idea yet what the correct answer is for the october 2007 exam, but this time last year it was 48% (from what I hear). so yes you were very close, but it could be only by .5 % or by 5%. Either way, I have faith in you my friend, just keep working hard.

The past few months before the exam I studied and took many full length practice exams. I made a minimum passing score for me to be 60%. That way you can cover all the typical ranges of the average


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## benbo (Dec 27, 2007)

SteveB said:


> Since they base the scaled score off the 1990 FE exam it really all depends on the majority who pass. That may sound confusing so let me give an example. Say for instance that 50 of the 120 morning questions were questions from the 1990 exam. those 50 questions are the basis for the passing score. Meaning that if a decent chunk pass those questions then you will need a higher percentage. If they do not fair so well then the average will be lower. That being said, traditionally the actual unscaled range of correct answers is from about 47% passing to 54% passing. I have no idea yet what the correct answer is for the october 2007 exam, but this time last year it was 48% (from what I hear). so yes you were very close, but it could be only by .5 % or by 5%. Either way, I have faith in you my friend, just keep working hard.


I'm not sure exactly where you get these numbers. Where did you get the 48%? And the exam format changed completely in 1991, so I don't know how they could base it off of this. To tell the truth, this sounds like something off of Wikipedia, which is not what they say on the NCEES site.

Now, these scores may or may not be correct, but I don't know how you can be sure about it.

By the way, I'm not criticizing, you are probably in the ballpark. I just don't think anybody knows this officially. As you say, shoot for at least 60%, becuse I don't think you can count on this.


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## Vinsanity (Dec 28, 2007)

benbo said:


> I'm not sure exactly where you get these numbers. Where did you get the 48%? And the exam format changed completely in 1991, so I don't know how they could base it off of this. To tell the truth, this sounds like something off of Wikipedia, which is not what they say on the NCEES site.
> Now, these scores may or may not be correct, but I don't know how you can be sure about it.
> 
> By the way, I'm not criticizing, you are probably in the ballpark. I just don't think anybody knows this officially. As you say, shoot for at least 60%, becuse I don't think you can count on this.



I emailed NCEES about releasing scores, it is there policy not to.

I have a question if anybody can answer me this, is it possible that NCEES reported score to the board will not be adopted as cut score on that particular state board, it might be higher or lower? Any ideas?


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

^^^ Each state has entered into an agreement with NCEES to serve as *THE AUTHORITY* for developing and scoring the PE and FE exam, among others. NCEES has engaged subject matter experts to prepare these questions for the examinations and establish the RELATIVE difficulty based on previous examinations. In the final analysis, the scoring method referred to as 'Equating' is employed to insure that the exams are graded on the relative scale (based on difficulty as judged from historical performance) rather than an absolute scale. This methodology serves as the check and balance to level the playing field so that MINIMUM CRITERIA FOR COMPETENCY is meted out consistently. At least in theory.

As to your question, the answer is that on a state-by-state basis, the licensing board has adopted rules regarding the procedures for accepting final grades (pass/fail). For my state, Florida, they place the burden for all judgements with NCEES and accept thier recommendation wholly without question. That is why we (Florida) can receive our pass/fail letter straight from NCEES via ELSES prior to the state board issuing a license or convening a separate meeting to accept scores. Other states may have more formal procedures in place to accept or ratify those recommended scores but I believe in the end it is mostly symbolic as most states have moved towards accepting NCEES as the decider when it comes to exam development and scoring.

While my answer is not a definitive response to your question, I hope that it helps clarify some of your questions.

Regards,

JR


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## SteveB (Dec 28, 2007)

the information I received came from an official on the state baord. He is a relative of mine. He stated that this equating to the 1990 exam is to ensure fairness from one test to the next, especially since the exams have changed format. It is how they can ensure that no test is harder than the others. lol I don't go to wikipedia for anything, but I tell you this is the info I got from a very reliable source. of course I could only receive statistical data and the general scheme of how they equate.

As for the question about how states do it, like the person before be stated but in a more understandable version in my opinion. The state boards can add to the min score, but can not take away from. If NCEES states to the state boards that a passing score is 48% than a state can either chose to make the passing score 48% or higher. They can not lower the passing score, making it easier for people to pass. This is not from the same source, but is the rumor. Which makes sense because that's how every government type agency handles it. Even the military.


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## benbo (Dec 28, 2007)

Okay. I know they use something for equating, so I guess that's reasonable, although it is pretty much verbatim from Wikipedia. Which doesn't mean it's wrong. If you have a relative that works for a board they should know.

The real question I have is about the passing score of 48% for last years exam. Maybe I misunderstood you. Your relative told you this? That's pretty remarkable, since this question comes up everywhere, and I would think this was a really big secret.

Also, I think in theory a state can decide whatever they want for the cut score - higher or lower. THey make the laws, not NCEES. In fact, I think NCEES is made up of representatives from state boards - "The National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) is a national non-profit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all states and U.S. territories. NCEES develops, scores, and administers the examinations used for engineering and surveying licensure throughout the United States. "

In practice, I think states just pretty much rubber stamp the NCEES score, or add some exams of their own like in CA.


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## Guest (Dec 28, 2007)

benbo said:


> The real question I have is about the passing score of 48% for last years exam. Maybe I misunderstood you. Your relative told you this? That's pretty remarkable, since this question comes up everywhere, and I would think this was a really big secret.


I know FBPE used to equate a RAW SCORE = 48 equal to a SCALED SCORE = 70 for pass. That was back when the exam was entirely written and hand-graded by two (or more) examiners.

I can see why one would say this 'tradition' would want to be preserved in future exams (at least the scoring aspect) but I think it is equally likely that the NCEES set its' own standard (based on subject matter experts) for what a SCALED SCORE = 70 would mean per each examination. Not to mention thier exams (and questions) are proprietary and a random exam (that includes historical questions) could be arranged according to what said subject matter experts believed constituted MINIMUM CRITERIA TO ESTABLISH COMPETENCY.

Those are my thoughts at least. :2cents:

JR


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## SteveB (Dec 28, 2007)

well, i just read wikipedia and your right it is almost verbatim, hell, maybe the information that was given to me was just blowing smoke up my ass, and to give me vague results. Either way I passed and I'll help others in any way I can. As for the score. He did not give me the exact number, but he did support everyones theory that the passing score is around 50% raw. I asked if this was true and he said give or take. Stated something along the lines of it was just shy of 50% this past year if he recalled correctly and some years it's a smidge over. Now that being said, he gave no value of what exactly it was, and he did keep everything very vague and didn't give much more info than what NCEES has given. All he did was put it in a dumbed down version to help me grasp what the hell they were trying to say. All in All the gentlemen who posted above came real close if his calculations are correct. But I didn't want him thinking that 50% was a mark to shoot for when apparently it fluctuates a few percent every test. It's not like it's a set scale they go off of every test, and they do equate it from something, so it probably is the first exam.

As for the state thing. I see your point but I'm not sure it works like that. National or higher chained organizations like NCEES have a higher level to set the bare minimum for the nation as a whole. From there the states may fluctuate to adjust it according by raising the score. Other wise you would have states that would argue that by having states dip below a min passing score that it would be unethical. I just can't see states ever going below the national minimum avg. I can see them rasing the bar, but not below. Like in the Army for instance. At Fort Drum where I was stationed from 2000-2004, it the division made a rule or standard, all below had to follow, but at the brigade level the standard could be raised but not lowered. And at battalion the brigades standard had to be followed not the divisions because it was higher. That might be confusing to some, so look at it like this.

The US government is made up of states. so in turn it is a National Council made up of states. If the federal government states that max speed limit on a certain highway is 65mph. No state can go above that speed limit. However if a state wishes they can make the max speed on a highway 55 mph. In short, they can add to, but not take away. I believe that is most likely the case NCEES and state boards as well.


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## benbo (Dec 28, 2007)

SteveB said:


> well, i just read wikipedia and your right it is almost verbatim, hell, maybe the information that was given to me was just blowing smoke up my ass, and to give me vague results. Either way I passed and I'll help others in any way I can. As for the score. He did not give me the exact number, but he did support everyones theory that the passing score is around 50% raw. I asked if this was true and he said give or take. Stated something along the lines of it was just shy of 50% this past year if he recalled correctly and some years it's a smidge over. Now that being said, he gave no value of what exactly it was, and he did keep everything very vague and didn't give much more info than what NCEES has given. All he did was put it in a dumbed down version to help me grasp what the hell they were trying to say. All in All the gentlemen who posted above came real close if his calculations are correct. But I didn't want him thinking that 50% was a mark to shoot for when apparently it fluctuates a few percent every test. It's not like it's a set scale they go off of every test, and they do equate it from something, so it probably is the first exam.As for the state thing. I see your point but I'm not sure it works like that. National or higher chained organizations like NCEES have a higher level to set the bare minimum for the nation as a whole. From there the states may fluctuate to adjust it according by raising the score. Other wise you would have states that would argue that by having states dip below a min passing score that it would be unethical. I just can't see states ever going below the national minimum avg. I can see them rasing the bar, but not below. Like in the Army for instance. At Fort Drum where I was stationed from 2000-2004, it the division made a rule or standard, all below had to follow, but at the brigade level the standard could be raised but not lowered. And at battalion the brigades standard had to be followed not the divisions because it was higher. That might be confusing to some, so look at it like this.
> 
> The US government is made up of states. so in turn it is a National Council made up of states. If the federal government states that max speed limit on a certain highway is 65mph. No state can go above that speed limit. However if a state wishes they can make the max speed on a highway 55 mph. In short, they can add to, but not take away. I believe that is most likely the case NCEES and state boards as well.


Okay, that sounds reasonable. That is what I've heard as well - it is around 50% give or take. I like to be cautious because after reading these message boards for a while so many people who fail the test are obsessed with the cut score, and if you tell them it's 48% they'll take that to the bank, then be bummed if they get a 52% diagnostic and don't pass. Not logical, but you get my point.

I also agree that if a state went below the minimum level that would not only give other states pause in reciprocity, but also would have everybody trying to take their exam in that state. So you may be correct.

By the way - I read your intro - thanks for your service to our country


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## SteveB (Dec 28, 2007)

Your Welcome Sir, and Thank you for the courtesy!


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