# Florida PE's



## rleon82 (Jul 24, 2006)

Anyone heard about our wall certificates? Maybe a date other than 6-8 weeks?

Thanks,

Rleon


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## DrFranz (Jul 24, 2006)

Last year I gor my wall certificate in the mail the first week of september... (April exam) I don't know if it'll be similar for this year...

any news?


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## rleon82 (Jul 24, 2006)

Wholly crap that blows. I cannot file for a S-corp without that wall certificate. :brick:


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## DrFranz (Jul 25, 2006)

yup... did you get your fictitious name already?


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## NSEARCH (Jul 25, 2006)

> Last year I gor my wall certificate in the mail the first week of september... (April exam) I don't know if it'll be similar for this year...any news?


Um didn't you just pass the PE? I assume you're talking about your EI certificate correct?


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## DrFranz (Jul 25, 2006)

> > Last year I gor my wall certificate in the mail the first week of september... (April exam) I don't know if it'll be similar for this year...any news?
> 
> 
> Um didn't you just pass the PE? I assume you're talking about your EI certificate correct?


correct


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## rleon82 (Jul 25, 2006)

I have a ficticious name but I cannot register it yet until the wall certificate arrives. :brick:

You hear anything yet NSEARCH on our wall certificates?


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## heidenAR (Jul 25, 2006)

I just got an e-mail from FBPR stating that they would begin mailing out "license packets" in the week of August 7th and we should get them on or around the 14th of August.

Hope this helps


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## rleon82 (Jul 25, 2006)

Thank Haiden, just more bad news from the State.


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## NSEARCH (Jul 25, 2006)

:wtf: :die: :brick:

GD that pisses me off!!!


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## DrFranz (Jul 25, 2006)

yup... why is FL so slow?? anyone knows? is it because of the snow birds that move here and slow down everything by osmosis?

:wtf:


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## DrFranz (Jul 28, 2006)

> I just got an e-mail from FBPR stating that they would begin mailing out "license packets" in the week of August 7th and we should get them on or around the 14th of August.
> Hope this helps


Any update from the Snail-Speed State?

:drunk:


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## NSEARCH (Aug 7, 2006)

So do any of you guys think we'll get our certificate this week? Man I really hope so :true:


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## rleon82 (Aug 7, 2006)

That would make two of us.


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## DrFranz (Aug 7, 2006)

Actually, three of us...

I am hoping we get them before the end of next week... though I have already lost hope in the FBPE (as said before, last year, they mailed the wall cers in September) :angry:


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## rleon82 (Aug 7, 2006)

Has anyone contacted the State of Florida to see what the deal is? I lost my contacts once I changed jobs.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 7, 2006)

Vermont isn't issuing any certificates until after their September meeting. Getting license numbers and that whole bit is the big deal, the fancy wall certificate is ust icing on the cake.

In lieu of my wall certificate, I have the following in my office: copy of my ELSES letter, copy of my printed license, printout of my name and license number from the state website,

I think it screams P.E. as much as any certificate.


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## DrFranz (Aug 8, 2006)

Yes, it does, but if you want to register an S corporation or an LLC, you need the wall certificate (actual licence issued by the Board of Professional Engineers) or else you can't file, so it's not an issue of signing and sealing or showing off as being a PE, but an issue of opening your own thing and registering, and being able to make the big bucks on your own time. h43r:


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## NSEARCH (Aug 8, 2006)

I just called the FBPE ( :violin: ) and actually got to speak with Brian Lynch, the exam coordinator/licensure technician (what the fuck does he do all day?). Anyways I asked him when they expect to be mailing out our wall certificates and he said by the end of this week or early next week. Bastards :whatever: :brick:


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## DrFranz (Aug 8, 2006)

it looks like they are drawing evey and each certificate by hand :whatever:


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## scottiesei (Aug 9, 2006)

> I just called the FBPE ( :violin: ) and actually got to speak with Brian Lynch, the exam coordinator/licensure technician (what the fuck does he do all day?).  Anyways I asked him when they expect to be mailing out our wall certificates and he said by the end of this week or early next week.  Bastards  :whatever:  :brick:


LMFAO!!!!! :rotfl:


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## rleon82 (Aug 9, 2006)

This is for the Florida P.E.'s or anyone else that can help.

Have you guys decided what to do for side work? Become a S-corp? Become a DBA, rleon82, P.E.? LLC looks like too much work.

I looked in to the liability insurance, there are tons of forms to fill out. They ask about my billables for the last 3-5 years. I am just starting out, there are no billables yet. Anyone have experience with acuiring the Liability insurance?

Thanks for the help,

rleon82


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 9, 2006)

> it looks like they are drawing evey and each certificate by hand :whatever:


Here they are hard at work...


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## NSEARCH (Aug 9, 2006)

R.....my first call would be to the Board and talk to someone there regarding the liability insurance. I think I'll be registering as Nsearch, PE.


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## rleon82 (Aug 9, 2006)

Thanks NSEARCH! I will call as-soon-as the wall certificate comes.


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## Timber (Aug 9, 2006)

Rleon,

If you don't mind me asking. Do you have any jobs lined up. And if so, how are you marketing your services. Just curios.

I like your enthusiasm of going for it, after all it's taken some time. I almost feel as though I have been lulled to sleep, and need to wake up MYself.


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## DrFranz (Aug 9, 2006)

I was talking with a couple friend of mine and they carry only errors and omissions' insurance... what do you guys think? :dunno:


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## rleon82 (Aug 9, 2006)

Good questions Timber, I will have to answer those tonight from home.


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## civengPE (Aug 9, 2006)

I have been talking with my State Farm Rep about liability insurance. She told me the E&amp;O and liablity policies will be one in the same. She is still working on it, but she said the premium will be about $800 - $1000 per year with a coverage of $250,000. This is based on less than $50,000 per year in billables.

I think it is EXTREMELY important for us as engineers to get this insurance. If anything ever happened, your fault or not, everyone gets sued. At least with one of these policies, someone will pay for the defense. Otherwise, you have to hire an attorney just to get the damn thing thrown out. I know someone that spent $30,000 in attorney's fees just to hav ethe judge dismiss the case outright at the first hearing.


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## rleon82 (Aug 9, 2006)

Where are you located civengPE? What state?


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## civengPE (Aug 9, 2006)

Sorry about that. I'm in Texas.


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## rleon82 (Aug 9, 2006)

I like the sound of only $800-$1000 for the E/O insurance. I will have to call my agent.


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## EdinNO (Aug 9, 2006)

> I know someone that spent $30,000 in attorney's fees just to hav ethe judge dismiss the case outright at the first hearing.


Lawyers ran away with it all. Man they get paid win, lose or draw! IT should be losing attorney pays the other guy's fees!

I know of a local job where the HVAC isn't working quite right. I don't know all the details, but I think everyone involved is getting sucked into it- engineers, contractors, equipment suplliers, test and balance companies, etc...

The insurance is very important.

Ed


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## rleon82 (Aug 9, 2006)

I sure would hate a $1,000 job costing me my house.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 9, 2006)

You would only want this insurance (E and O) if you're doing work on the side under your name just to clarify for some.


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## DrFranz (Aug 9, 2006)

w/ regards to loosing a home to a 500 bock's job, my lawyer advised me to put all my stuff in a trust fund to my kids/wife's name so they don't go after me if anything ever happens. The thing is that, after they sue your (own) company (as a separate entity), in FL they can go after the PE that signed, regardless if you work for yourself or for someone else's firm, and there's where they can get everything you got. Now, some companies will defend you if you get personally sued, after the case against the company was dismissed or settled, but some companyes will let you dry out there. Check with your company's policies, you may be surprised.


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## DrFranz (Aug 9, 2006)

we should open a new tread on tips and advise about opening your own company, I believe we can learn a lot from eachother.


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## Kipper (Aug 10, 2006)

> we should open a new tread on tips and advise about opening your own company, I believe we can learn a lot from eachother.


Excellent idea Dr.



:thumbsup:


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## rleon82 (Aug 10, 2006)

I have a former coworker that has been in the business for the last 25 years. He needs a design professional to Sign and Seal all his work. He used to work for my former boss but now that our former boss is gone to bigger and better things, the former coworker needs my certification capabilities.

The work finds him and he needs me. It is a great system, he does the majority of the work, I review it, Certify it, then split the fees with him. That is a great deal.

This is all done on the side, I am too busy with my current employer to do anything else.

Hopefully that was not too confusing.

Rleon, out.


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## rleon82 (Aug 11, 2006)

Checked the mialbox at lunch today, no wall certificate. I guess the State had to order a new box of crayons.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 11, 2006)

:brick:


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## rleon82 (Aug 13, 2006)

I was away from home this weekend. I guess no paperwork came in the mail on Saturday. More... :brick:


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## DrFranz (Aug 14, 2006)

> I have a former coworker that has been in the business for the last 25 years. He needs a design professional to Sign and Seal all his work. He used to work for my former boss but now that our former boss is gone to bigger and better things, the former coworker needs my certification capabilities.
> The work finds him and he needs me. It is a great system, he does the majority of the work, I review it, Certify it, then split the fees with him. That is a great deal.
> 
> This is all done on the side, I am too busy with my current employer to do anything else.
> ...


I had a similar offer from a former co-worker... the only issue I have is the comfort level... since he doesn't have a license (not even the EI), if he screws up or misses something in a test, or coocks the results to make a failing test pass nothing happens to him, but my license goes to hell... :blink:


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## rleon82 (Aug 14, 2006)

I will make sure I check and double check all his work.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 15, 2006)

Will this week be THE week? Survey says.......NO!! :brick:


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## rleon82 (Aug 15, 2006)

Nothing in the box today. Maybe tomorrow? LOL!!!


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 15, 2006)

> I will make sure I check and double check all his work.


I'm assuming you've read through the Florida code to make sure you are following the rules and regs of stamping drawings, etc.?

I'm not sure what the rules are in Florida regarding being in "reasonable charge" but of the states I have my PE in, I don't think what you are doing would qualify.

I'm not preachin'. I'm just saying be careful.


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## rleon82 (Aug 15, 2006)

That's why I am not signing and sealing anthing until the Wall Certificate comes in the mail. Tomorrow I finally sign my first Preliminary Plat Site Plan Application and Stormwater Drainage Report. With my new firm of course. :???:


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 16, 2006)

> That's why I am not signing and sealing anthing until the Wall Certificate comes in the mail.? Tomorrow I finally sign my first Preliminary Plat Site Plan Application and Stormwater Drainage Report.? With my new firm of course. :???:


Just because I care (plus I was a little bored last night), I went on the Florida board's website and looked up definition of "responsible charge". Here's a link to the Florida Administrative Code and here's the excerpt on responsible charge:

61G15, Florida Administrative Code

_(1) ?Responsible Charge? shall mean that degree of control an engineer is required to maintain over engineering decisions made personally or by others over which the engineer exercises supervisory direction and control authority. The engineer in responsible charge is the Engineer of Record as defined in subsection 61G15-30.002(1), F.A.C. _

_(a) The degree of control necessary for the Engineer of Record shall be such that the engineer: _

_1. Personally makes engineering decisions or reviews and approves proposed decisions prior to their implementation, including the consideration of alternatives, whenever engineering decisions which could affect the health, safety and welfare of the public are made. In making said engineering decisions, the engineer shall be physically present or, if not physically present, be available in a reasonable period of time, through the use of electronic communication devices, such as electronic mail, videoconferencing, teleconferencing, computer networking, or via facsimile transmission. _

_2. Judges the validity and applicability of recommendations prior to their incorporation into the work, including the qualifications of those making the recommendations. _

_( B ) Engineering decisions which must be made by and are the responsibility of the Engineer of Record are those decisions concerning permanent or temporary work which could create a danger to the health, safety, and welfare of the public, such as, but not limited to, the following: _

_1. The selection of engineering alternatives to be investigated and the comparison of alternatives for engineering works. _

_2. The selection or development of design standards or methods, and materials to be used. _

_3. The selection or development of techniques or methods of testing to be used in evaluating materials or completed works, either new or existing. _

_4. The development and control of operating and maintenance procedures. _

_© As a test to evaluate whether an engineer is the Engineer of Record, the following shall be considered: _

_1. The engineer shall be capable of answering questions relevant to the engineering decisions made during the engineer?s work on the project, in sufficient detail as to leave little doubt as to the engineer?s proficiency for the work performed and involvement in said work. It is not necessary to defend decisions as in an adversary situation, but only to demonstrate that the engineer in responsible charge made them and possessed sufficient knowledge of the project to make them. Examples of questions to be answered by the engineer could relate to criteria for design, applicable codes and standards, methods of analysis, selection of materials and systems, economics of alternatesolutions, and environmental considerations. The individuals should be able to clearly define the span and degree of control and how it was exercised and to demonstrate that the engineer was answerable within said span and degree of control necessary for the engineering work done. _

_2. The engineer shall be completely in charge of, and satisfied with, the engineering aspects of the project. _

_3. The engineer shall have the ability to review design work at any time during the development of the project and shall be available to exercise judgment in reviewing these documents. _

_4. The engineer shall have personal knowledge of the technical abilities of the technical personnel doing the work and be satisfied that these capabilities are sufficient for the performance of the work. _

_(d) The term ?responsible charge? relates to engineering decisions within the purview of the Professional Engineers Act and does not refer to management control in a hierarchy of professional engineers except as each of the individuals in the hierarchy exercises independent engineering judgement and thus responsible charge. It does not refer to administrative and personnel management functions. While an engineer may also have such duties in this position, it should not enhance or decrease one?s status of being in responsible charge of the work. The phrase does not refer to the concept of financial liability. _

_(2) ?Engineering Design? shall mean that the process of devising a system, component, or process to meet desired needs. It is a decision-making process (often iterative), in which the basic sciences, mathematics, and engineering sciences are applied to convert resources optimally to meet a stated objective. Among the fundamental elements of the design process are the establishment of objectives and criteria, synthesis, analysis, construction, testing and evaluation. Central to the process are the essential and complementary roles of synthesis and analysis. This definition is intended to be interpreted in its broadest sense. In particular the words ?system, component, or process? and ?convert resources optimally? operate to indicate that sociological, economic, aesthetic, legal, ethical, etc., considerations can be included. _

_(3) The term ?evaluation of engineering works and systems? as used in the definition in the practice of engineering set forth in Chapter 471.005(4)(a), F.S., includes but is not limited to services provided by testing laboratories involving the following: _

_(a) The planning and implementation of any investigation or testing program for the purpose of developing design criteria either by an engineering testing laboratory or other professional engineers. _

_(B) The planning or implementation of any investigation, inspection or testing program for the purpose of determining the causes of failures. _

_? The preparation of any report documenting soils or other construction materials test data. _

_(d) The preparation of any report offering any engineering evaluation, advice or test results, whenever such reports go beyond the tabulation of test data. Reports which document soils or other construction materials test data will be considered as engineering reports. _

_(e) Services performed by any entity or provided by a testing laboratory for any entity subject to regulation by a state or federal regulatory agency which enforces standards as to testing shall be exempt from this rule except where the services otherwise would require the participation of a professional engineer. _

_(4) ?Certification? shall mean a statement signed and/or sealed by a professional engineer representing that the engineering services addressed therein, as defined in Section 471.005(6), F.S., have been performed by the professional engineer, and based upon the professional engineer?s knowledge, information and belief, and in accordance with commonly accepted procedures consistent with applicable standards of practice, and is not a guaranty or warranty, either expressed or implied. _

_(5) ?FEMC? shall mean the Florida Engineers Management Corporation, created in Section 471.038(3), F.S._


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## DVINNY (Aug 16, 2006)

uh, what's that all mean?


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## NSEARCH (Aug 16, 2006)

Basically that the engineer of record needs to be involved during the entire design process, not just receiving a set of plans reviewing them and then signing and sealing them. In my years of working I've learned that the engineers who do that are labeled as "rubberstampers" and are looked down upon by their peers.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 16, 2006)

> uh, what's that all mean?


The way I read it, bottom line is that they frown on people taking other engineers' work, checking it, and sealing it. They want you to be involved in decision making from the start.

One of the states I'm registered in goes even farther and says you must be direct control of anyone who is working on the design drawings. Checking someone's work on the side would definitely be a no-no.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 16, 2006)

It is technically a no-no but it goes on everyday and in every state. It's also hard for the Boards to define/prove what is "direct control" and if it's been violated. It's definitely a grey area of our engineering ethics.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 16, 2006)

> It is technically a no-no but it goes on everyday and in every state.  It's also hard for the Boards to define/prove what is "direct control" and if it's been violated.  It's definitely a grey area of our engineering ethics.


Yes, but if you go to Florida Board website and look at "Disciplinary Action", there have been a number of complaints filed regarding stamping someone else's work.

Florida Board

edit - Dr. Franz is slow!! :wav


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## DrFranz (Aug 16, 2006)

the Florida Board will charge you with stamping if you just review and sign/seal someoneelse's work. You can take a look at the Disciplinary Actions section in the page and will find at least a couple engineers who's licenses have been charged.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 16, 2006)

Like I said......it happens a lot because it's lucrative and the market is there.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 16, 2006)

> Like I said......it happens a lot because it's lucrative and the market is there.


Does Florida require a take home ethics exam for the PE or anything like that? I think it was on the PE exam for a while (after I took it) but I heard there are no ethics questions on there anymore.


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## rleon82 (Aug 16, 2006)

There is not an ethics course that I know about. I think we had to take an ethics survey as part of the application process.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 16, 2006)

Before approval by the Board to take the exam candidates are required to pass a multiple-choice questionaire that covers many areas within the Florida Administrative Code. The Board also requires engineers (PE's) to complete eight hours of continuing education per renewal cycle. Four of those hours must be related to Florida?s engineering laws and rules and four must relate to the licensee?s area of practice. There are multiple courses available on ethics.

Here is a link to the Study Guide that you are required to pass before the Board will approve your exam application.

Study Guide on Laws and Rules


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 16, 2006)

> Here is a link to the Study Guide that you are required to pass before the Board will approve your exam application.
> Study Guide on Laws and Rules


Well, there were at least 3 or 4 questions in there relating to "responsible charge" and stamping other peoples' work, so no one can say they didn't know it was against the rules.

I guess it's all about risk/reward, choices/consequences.


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## rleon82 (Aug 16, 2006)

Does Mike work for the Florida Board? :wtf:


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## Road Guy (Aug 16, 2006)

it doesnt sound any different than if a the PM stamps work that was done under his supervision by another person. like at any different company in the US.

Joe PM supervises a project, does very little work on it(other than budget)

John - Senior Projeect Engineer does 50% of the work &amp; 95 % of QA/QC

Jack the Intern does the remaining 50% of work

Joe stamps it. Just because they all work at the same company doesnt mean that Joe really reviews it any more than if it was two people collaborating together to make some money.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 16, 2006)

> Does Mike work for the Florida Board? :wtf:


Nah. Believe it or not, I was reading this thread the other day and I saw what you were planning on doing and I just thought I would offer the wisdom of a gray hair old man. :true:

Kind of like Obi Wan and Luke Skywalker..... 



> it doesnt sound any different than if a the PM stamps work that was done under his supervision by another person. like at any different company in the US.
> Joe PM supervises a project, does very little work on it(other than budget)
> 
> John - Senior Projeect Engineer does 50% of the work &amp; 95 % of QA/QC
> ...


I think it is different. In your scenario, Joe PM probably wrote the proposal, was at the kickoff meeting, and has a much better chance of knowing what went on during the day-to-day design than someone who picks up a set of plans and calcs at the end and checks them. IMHO.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 16, 2006)

> Kind of like Obi Wan and Luke Skywalker.....


I totally want to sign off on a set of Death Star plans.

"Yeah Palpatine, I know you want to conquer the galaxy, but have you checked your fixture count? Where's a stormtrooper supposed to take a leak on his lunch break?

I'm sorry big fella, I just can't sign off on this. You'll have to settle for terrorizing the rebels for another week. :true: "


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## Road Guy (Aug 16, 2006)

check out this thread

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=859

didnt want to hijack


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## Timber (Aug 16, 2006)

I see, so in order for the prez to sign an executive bill into law, he must first consider if he has truly been involved with all of the considerations?

That's debateable.

Let's be real. How is a measely little P.E. ever going to make a $ if he works with his tail between his legs. A real leader is always accountable. Yet that certainly doesn't mean he doesn't delegate assignments based on his own professional judgment of individual team members skills. Even then, he reviews the delegated work with quality assurance and control measures.

Some engineers are control freaks. That's fine. But if you want to make any money, you might someday realize there are other talented people in this world who can assist with your goals.

The more you can stamp, the more you can make. So get busy stamping and get off that high horse of feeling like making money is unethical. This is still america, land of opportunity. Stamp , Sign &amp; Seal those plans once your sure the plans are accurate. Unless you want to continue being a troll working for the big dog. Remember this, the big dog was once a small pup. You have to decide if your cut out to be a big dog or just another mut in the kennel.


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## Road Guy (Aug 16, 2006)

: USA :


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## DVINNY (Aug 16, 2006)

yes, but it give the 'authority' the loop hole they need to make you the scapegoat when something goes wrong. CYA.


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## rleon82 (Aug 17, 2006)

Thanks for putting the fear of God into me. I will only S/S Drainage project that I directly supervised and designed.

If my "sidework" friend needs my certification, he must give me a book on all his calculations and explain the project as if I designed it from scratch.

Hence I am put on the stand and questioned about reasonable charge.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Aug 17, 2006)

I'm not even sure where to start with this........



> I see, so in order for the prez to sign an executive bill into law, he must first consider if he has truly been involved with all of the considerations?


Yeah, that's exactly what I said and there is absolutely no difference between Joe Engineer stamping a retaining wall design and Federal Government passing a law..... Please......



> Let's be real.  How is a measely little P.E. ever going to make a $ if he works with his tail between his legs.  A real leader is always accountable.  Yet that certainly doesn't mean he doesn't delegate assignments based on his own professional judgment of individual team members skills.  Even then, he reviews the delegated work with quality assurance and control measures.


You are correct. This is how it is supposed to work. This; however, is not germane to the conversation because we are talking about having no involvement in the project (no delegating, no day-to-day review), just reviewing and stamping drawings at the end without possibly even ever hearing about the project until that point.



> Some engineers are control freaks.  That's fine.  But if you want to make any money, you might someday realize there are other talented people in this world who can assist with your goals.


Have absolutely no idea what your point is here.



> The more you can stamp, the more you can make.  So get busy stamping and get off that high horse of feeling like making money is unethical.  This is still america, land of opportunity.  Stamp , Sign &amp; Seal those plans once your sure the plans are accurate.  Unless you want to continue being a troll working for the big dog.  Remember this, the big dog was once a small pup. You have to decide if your cut out to be a big dog or just another mut in the kennel.


With this attitude, I'm sure you will go far! Good luck with that.......

Look. All I'm saying is follow the rules. If someone wants you to stamp their drawings on the side, fine. But be involved from the beginning before they start the project. And build in a couple reviews during the project, so in the end, if there's a problem and it ever goes to court, you can truthfully say you followed the rules.

"Look. It's about the rules. And without the rules we might as well all be up in a tree flinging our crap at each other." - Red Forman


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 17, 2006)

> "Look. It's about the rules. And without the rules we might as well all be up in a tree flinging our crap at each other." - Red Forman


Hahaha, I love That 70's Show! Quality reference.

I can picture Red as an engineer...

The only thing that's gonna be stamped around here is your ass with my foot! :angry:


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## Timber (Aug 17, 2006)

I prolly shouldn't joke around like that, but I just had too. You were coming across to serious for me.

Hope you realize I was just being a smart ass, kind of fun.

Kick back and have a :drunk:

This site RoCkS ;guns;


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## heidenAR (Aug 17, 2006)

Just got an e-mail from FBPR and the "packets" were mailed out yesterday (8/16) and this morning. Later.


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## NSEARCH (Aug 17, 2006)

> Just got an e-mail from FBPR and the "packets" were mailed out yesterday (8/16) and this morning. Later.


Thanks heidenAR....and :violin: to the FB. Maybe some of us will get them tomorrow? Man, that would be sweet.


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## DrFranz (Aug 17, 2006)

yes, and the onlyone that gets punished (as it should be) is the stamping engineer.


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