# How for PE to find a decent job



## mech engineer (Jul 17, 2007)

Guys, I already got both PE and MS ME. My boss shaked by hand and that was it - no promotion, no raise, no promises. Does anybody know how to approach finding a job where all those titles would matter and bring in decent wages and all? Personally I am confused - everybody loves me, but knobody is willing to pay me a red penny more.

Please advise what is your experience. I am in NY/NJ aread


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## dkent (Jul 18, 2007)

I'm in the same boat. You should start looking for a new job. There are many engineering jobs out there. Find a place that values what you have to offer and will reward you for it.

D



mech engineer said:


> Guys, I already got both PE and MS ME. My boss shaked by hand and that was it - no promotion, no raise, no promises. Does anybody know how to approach finding a job where all those titles would matter and bring in decent wages and all? Personally I am confused - everybody loves me, but knobody is willing to pay me a red penny more.
> Please advise what is your experience. I am in NY/NJ aread


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## VA_Env_Engr (Jul 18, 2007)

I agree with dkent. I think by passing the PE exam we have earned a lot more than simple hand shake. If your boss/employer can't see that, you need to get out.


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## sceriana (Jul 18, 2007)

mech engineer said:


> Guys, I already got both PE and MS ME. My boss shaked by hand and that was it - no promotion, no raise, no promises. Does anybody know how to approach finding a job where all those titles would matter and bring in decent wages and all? Personally I am confused - everybody loves me, but knobody is willing to pay me a red penny more.


You also have to factor in the environment you find yourself in, which is not always fun. I have my MS and got my PE. My raise was less than expected ... but I know the company is in a slight slump, so right at this moment, things are so-so. And I am also confident that things will improve and slowly but surely I will be make my way up the ladder and be in a good position within the company. Is that a guarantee? Of course not. So the dilemma for me is following my gut and staying put, or starting to look around in a market that has many options. Hmmm. If it weren't for the company treating me well thus far ... I would be looking around and being in Florida, I think there are plenty of options to shop around for.


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## LXZ (Jul 18, 2007)

sceriana said:


> You also have to factor in the environment you find yourself in, which is not always fun. I have my MS and got my PE. My raise was less than expected ... but I know the company is in a slight slump, so right at this moment, things are so-so. And I am also confident that things will improve and slowly but surely I will be make my way up the ladder and be in a good position within the company. Is that a guarantee? Of course not. So the dilemma for me is following my gut and staying put, or starting to look around in a market that has many options. Hmmm. If it weren't for the company treating me well thus far ... I would be looking around and being in Florida, I think there are plenty of options to shop around for.


Agree most of the points. If you feel comfortable with the current job, why not just stick with it though the raise is not as good as expected. Don't alway expect your next job will be a better one than your current. Often of the time, it is not.


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## civilsid (Jul 22, 2007)

It is strange that the only way to find out what you are worth is to do a little job hopping. Let me share my story:

First of all, I used to live in Western NY in Niagara County and I think it is a great place to leave. I couldn't find any job and I had my BSME under my belt- basically going broke.

SO I moved to Kingman, AZ which is at the intersection of I-40 and Hwy 93 about 100 miles south of Vegas and 200 miles north of Phoenix.

I started working for a one engineer Civil consulting company with a couple surveyor-wanna-be types and one other drafter. I was making $12 an hour which is not the type of job you move across the country for. That was in April '04. After 60 days I was bumped up to $14 since I proved that I was not a total idiot even though I had no experience in the civil engineering field.

A month or two after that, I got a job with a larger local engineering company and I worked there for about one year. I started at $17.50 and had unlimited over time at rate-and-a-half so I was finally starting to make some money. When I left, I was making $20.50 but they had converted me to salary and I could not get OT rate. I liked that job a lot and learned most of my civil engineering stuff while at that company. I passed my EIT exam in October of '04.

As a side note, I don't remember anybody explaining the importance of taking the EIT in college or even talking about licensure. Definitely important of course, but I did not know at the time.

So in the summer of '05, I left and was quickly hired by another company for $23 an hour. This new company was in Scottsdale and I was living in a hotel all week and got to see my wife on weekends but I did that because I was under the impression that the company would be opening an office local to me in the Kingman area and I was supposed to run that office. After a couple months of this, they bumped me up to $27 an hour but I had to pay for my own lodging. Then that company was acquired through a merger with Stantec and the Kingman office plans were shut down.

I then went to work with yet another company in October or November of '05 and they gave me a salary of $65,000 (which is about $32.50 an hour) plus a company vehicle, laptop, cell phone, and a good medical benefits package. I only worked there for a couple months. It was sort of a family run business and everyone in the company were Mormons / Latter Day Saints and I was not part of the clan and I guess I was not agreeable to being converted so the work dynamics were a little weird.

I did mostly sub contract work after that plus some big vacant land real estate sales. I figured it made more sense to bill myself out at $100 an hour and get a few hours a week than it was to be working for someone else. Plus by this time, I had gotten to know a lot of people so the work was sporadic but profitable and I could work mostly from home whenever I wanted. I guess that isd a grey area of the law since I was doing consulting work but under the stamp of one of my friends and he was technically subbing the work out to me or if I charged a client directly, I charged for "drafting services" which is OK.

I then got a job offer I couldn't refuse in the summer of '06. I had all the bargaining power in the world since I didn't want to work for someone else anyways.  So, without actually expecting to get the job, I demanded $50 an hour, a company vehicle plus all the perks. They actually gave it to me because they had a ton of work and they could not find an engineer. Then the owner of the company began doing things I believed were not ethical and I did not want my name dragged through his mud, no matter how much money was involved. SO I left and spent my time studying for the PE in April '07.

So, a crazy long story, with a happy ending. I am working for me again. I nailed the exam. I always got frustrated about not having a particular job work out- and every job was a different reason- but in hindsight, there are always greener pastures and tons of opportunity if you can be flexible with where you live or how far you have to drive. I can't believe how much turnover there is in the consulting field but nobody makes any more money by staying put for very long. NY sucks. That place will bleed the life force out of you. I just wish I left about 10 years earlier.

Party on- :bananalama:


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## mech engineer (Jul 22, 2007)

civilsid said:


> It is strange that the only way to find out what you are worth is to do a little job hopping. Let me share my story:
> First of all, I used to live in Western NY in Niagara County and I think it is a great place to leave. I couldn't find any job and I had my BSME under my belt- basically going broke.
> 
> SO I moved to Kingman, AZ which is at the intersection of I-40 and Hwy 93 about 100 miles south of Vegas and 200 miles north of Phoenix.
> ...


I agree with you about NY. After living in NY, I actually moved to NJ. Your story is quite amusing - by means of job hopping you actually came to a reasonable salary and life style. However, what I fear if you have a family to feed, I am not sure if it is safe... Not sure. Someone has to pay all those bills, no matter what. The conventional word of wisdoms is have enough cash to pay your bills for 6-12 months before you move on or someting. ld-025:

Anyways, taking on reasonable risk is quite a good idea. You have some sort of a plan - which is great. :appl:

By the way, is it difficult to obtain a reciprocity license in AZ?


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## civilsid (Jul 22, 2007)

I have been told that it is not difficult. I certainly hope that is the case since I tested in CA because the experience requirement was less and now that I have been through it I havew the time required for AZ.

I love this area. It can't be beat. Also, my wife has her Master's in Counseling Psychology so she always made sure we had a steady paycheck.

The city of Kingman is looking for an assistant engineer with a PE and offers a range of about 70-80k doe. I could also put you in touch with our DOT if you like. Give me a call 928-692-0656 if AZ might potentially be a place of relocation. Tons of work and very little talent.


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## mech engineer (Jul 27, 2007)

mech engineer said:


> Guys, I already got both PE and MS ME. My boss shaked by hand and that was it - no promotion, no raise, no promises. Does anybody know how to approach finding a job where all those titles would matter and bring in decent wages and all? Personally I am confused - everybody loves me, but knobody is willing to pay me a red penny more.
> Please advise what is your experience. I am in NY/NJ aread


Well, after some sweating it, I talked my boss into giving me a modest raise. I think it sweetens my life a bit.

Started working on reciprocity with neighboring states. There are needed three signatures / references for all the reciprocities that I pursue. One reference was very enthusiastic and helping. Another one seems to be overseas for a while, I cannot reach that guy.

The 3rd one just died!!! Or, God! :Locolaugh: :Locolaugh: So, I found another engineer who is familiar with my experience, he told me he knows me just visually and does not want to sign my papers, since who knows what kind of a crook I am. Any average cowboy with some schooling can pass those PE license exams, etc., etc. And it is not his problem in general. Nice!!! :hung-037: :hung-037:

Anyways, now I probably only have two references (at best) out of the three that I need for the reciprocity. There are a few more guys who are familiar with my experience with PE licenses who work for my present employer, but after all that I listened out from that 3rd smarty, I am feeling up to giving up the whole reciprocity thing, at least for a while. When you are in the position of asking for a favor people often tend to be rude. I want some of the engineers to volunteer their help. Not everybody is this senseless.

By the way, whatever I designed in my life WORKED. But I never saw anything designed by that smarty guy that works. Maybe 30 years ago he designed a buggy? Don't know. How about a machine that was exported to three countries that I designed? And those publications and inventions? He's gotto be just a bad person... I am trying to avoid cursing, 'cause they may delete my post...


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## civilsid (Jul 28, 2007)

mech engineer said:


> ...he told me he knows me just visually and does not want to sign my papers, since who knows what kind of a crook I am. Any average cowboy with some schooling can pass those PE license exams, etc., etc. And it is not his problem in general. Nice!!!



Yeah- I definitely know what you are talking about. It was very difficult to get the 4 signatures I needed for the CA exam. lease: I worked for the VP of engineering in a company that had 50-55 employees and 3 stamps. He left the company and then I left about 1 month later due to changes.

Anyways, that former supervisor (Joe) signed for me and was very helpful and enthusiastic about me getting my license :thankyou: . I would have followed Joe to his new employer but I did not want to relocate to Las Vegas. I got two other referrals from two other engineers I knew. One was my current boss (at that time) and the third was a friendly engineer that was subcontracting work to me so he knew I did a good job. :woot:

It was that freaking 4th advocate that I could not get. :deadhorse: The city engineer said he would sign for me and then did not give me a positive recommendation. I really wish he would have said that he did not feel comfortable doing it. But, even worse than that, he said he would and then my exams got bumped out an extra 6 months because of it. That Bastard! To add insult to injury, he ended up retiring the same year so he is not even in the engineering business any more. :goat:

Typically, former employers tell you to screw off because you don't work for them anymore (at least in the consulting industry because that makes you a competitor). 

My 4th was eventually a guy from our state environmental quality department. I never would have thought that he would sign for me especially after I felt like I was punched in the face :15: :BS: by others that I was just fishing at that point. Fortunately, he said sure no problem, he has seen my work and talked to me on the phone enough that he thought I would be a fine engineer. So that was my 4th.

I had one guy tell me right to my face that he felt that I was not qualified to be an engineer. This was coming from a guy that got his license when he was 25! Now the joke is on hime because I heard he was under investigation / being sued by a former client over some pretty serious issues. :17:

I really don't understand anything about this holier-than-thou attitude. If someone picked engineering as a career and they came to me, I would sign for them unless I had a specific reason not to. I think it is wrong to withhold that from someone. Let them take the exam and cheer them on if and when they make it. You would think you did something criminally wrong when people refuse to say something positive about you. Very frustrating. :210:

So, keep looking and asking and you never know where your help is coming from.


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## mech engineer (Jul 28, 2007)

civilsid said:


> Yeah- I definitely know what you are talking about. It was very difficult to get the 4 signatures I needed for the CA exam. lease: I worked for the VP of engineering in a company that had 50-55 employees and 3 stamps. He left the company and then I left about 1 month later due to changes.
> Anyways, that former supervisor (Joe) signed for me and was very helpful and enthusiastic about me getting my license :thankyou: . I would have followed Joe to his new employer but I did not want to relocate to Las Vegas. I got two other referrals from two other engineers I knew. One was my current boss (at that time) and the third was a friendly engineer that was subcontracting work to me so he knew I did a good job. :woot:
> 
> It was that freaking 4th advocate that I could not get. :deadhorse: The city engineer said he would sign for me and then did not give me a positive recommendation. I really wish he would have said that he did not feel comfortable doing it. But, even worse than that, he said he would and then my exams got bumped out an extra 6 months because of it. That Bastard! To add insult to injury, he ended up retiring the same year so he is not even in the engineering business any more. :goat:
> ...


Thank you for your true story. Well, my former boss is still my friend, although he is not a PE himself. However, he subcontracted a PE at some point, who is no longer with his company, but is quite familiar with my work. The plan now is to get in touch with the former boss and ask for the phone number of that subcontractor. Then I need to call that subcotractor and ask him to please recall my work and agree to sign my paper. If he is not in a bad mood or something, it may work. So much hussle!

However, since that guy is a PE, HE MAY NEED RECIPROCITY, TOO. And given I KNOW HIS WORK, we can help each other. This can put him into the right mood, I guess. After all, I hold a valid license, too, and can attest the reputation of a person I know is a good engineer


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## Dark Knight (Jul 28, 2007)

The same thing happened to me. The guy just told me on my face: " I am no signing your paper work. I don't know your engineering work. :smileyballs: " There were other issues but he used that as an excuse. Fortunately I found another engineer in the same department, two cubicles from him, and he helped me. He did not believe what the other guy told me and was pretty surprised he did that.

Anyways. There is always someone willing to help. Keep looking.

Good Luck!!!!!


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## dkent (Jul 30, 2007)

If I didn't know you or your quality of work I wouldn't sign your papers either! Why do you think the Boards require the references in the first place? If the Board wanted a meaningless signature, they would have said to go out on the street and get one from the next guy that walks by.

Go develop a relationship with these people. Work with them for a while and EARN their signature. Geez.

D


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## mech engineer (Jul 30, 2007)

Luis said:


> The same thing happened to me. The guy just told me on my face: " I am no signing your paper work. I don't know your engineering work. :smileyballs: " There were other issues but he used that as an excuse. Fortunately I found another engineer in the same department, two cubicles from him, and he helped me. He did not believe what the other guy told me and was pretty surprised he did that.
> Anyways. There is always someone willing to help. Keep looking.
> 
> Good Luck!!!!!


Friend, the problem is not their not knowing the quality of one's work. The problem is some people are DIFFICULT despite they know the quality of your work. And given the number of PE's that surround an engineer is limited, if someone is being difficult, it makes the life of the engineer who is seeking those signatures miserable. You are at mercy of people who might as well be your competitors or ... well, enemies, so to say. And what are you going to do if this is the case? What kind of a relationship you can develop with them?

Life is life, and the engineer in the cubicle next to yours is not always your buddy...


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## dkent (Jul 30, 2007)

I quote from civilsid: "I had one guy tell me right to my face that he felt that I was not qualified to be an engineer." Another quote from Luis: "The same thing happened to me. The guy just told me on my face: I am no signing your paper work. I don't know your engineering work."

Lack of a relationship and quality of work may only be excuses, but you at least need to consider that they might be true reasons to not sign. If these engineers do see you as a competitor, out smart them by going to them as a subordinate engineer "looking for guidance and to learn from their vast experience". Kiss their ass until you get what you want.

D



mech engineer said:


> Friend, the problem is not their not knowing the quality of one's work. The problem is some people are DIFFICULT despite they know the quality of your work. And given the number of PE's that surround an engineer is limited, if someone is being difficult, it makes the life of the engineer who is seeking those signatures miserable. You are at mercy of people who might as well be your competitors or ... well, enemies, so to say. And what are you going to do if this is the case? What kind of a relationship you can develop with them?
> Life is life, and the engineer in the cubicle next to yours is not always your buddy...


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## JPGOLF (Aug 10, 2007)

Hey mech engineer

Being a MSME and PE, I would recommend a large MEP consulting firm. I work for a small one and the MSc. would really not be a plus, but the PE definitely is.

Best of luck!


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## civilsid (Aug 10, 2007)

dkent said:


> ... Kiss their ass until you get what you want.
> D


Some people go through their whole life like that.

I'm not one of them.

It is totally all about who your friends are and I think it has very little to do with actual work experience (although I absolutely agree that it should be about having experience!). I worked for a very small company which was one PE and a couple drafters. He was very excited about me getting my license (this was a couple years ago now) and he would mention it all the time.

Now fast forward about a year

I am then working for someone else and I went back and asked that same guy to sign as a reference and he looked at me point blank and said I never performed any engineering quality work as long as he knew me.

Well, F*** him because I got my license anyways and now we have to work in the same town together and I wonder how he feels knowing that he was just trying to keep me down and now we are on equal footing. He is unethical and crooked and I will never forget it.

I guess they say being pissed off is better than being pissed on!


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## mech engineer (Aug 11, 2007)

civilsid said:


> Some people go through their whole life like that.I'm not one of them.
> 
> It is totally all about who your friends are and I think it has very little to do with actual work experience (although I absolutely agree that it should be about having experience!). I worked for a very small company which was one PE and a couple drafters. He was very excited about me getting my license (this was a couple years ago now) and he would mention it all the time.
> 
> ...


Very true. I was let down like that, and I was just pissed for quite a while. Then I remembered another PE, VERY MODEST GUY, with whom I worked about two years ago. I spent a whole weekend looking for his contact information, and I was afraid he could also yell at me or something. But his answer was 'Sure, no problem. Give me the form to sign'.

So, now I have two signatures out of three I need. The 3rd guy I consider a rock solid reference, but for some reason cannot get in touch with him. Well, will keep trying - he can't let me down, because he trained me! He's a big shot in engineering, maybe he does not have time to read his emails, and I do not have heart to call him at this point...


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## TXengrChickPE (Aug 11, 2007)

mech engineer said:


> I do not have heart to call him at this point...


CALL HIM!!! this is your career you're talking about. I know people who get over 500 emails a day. They would RATHER have you call them if you need something so it doesn't get lost in the shuffle.


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