# Email from NCEES



## E720 (Aug 5, 2019)

I was reading through threads on here where people thought that there morning score wouldn't affect the afternoon passing score (I would have thought this too). Maybe everyone else knows this but I thought I would just post a response I got from NCEES anyway:

Thank you for contacting NCEES with your questions and concerns. I will do my best to address them for you.As you know, NCEES does not release numeric exam scores; component results are reported as acceptable or unacceptable only. Therefore, when a results notice informs a candidate as having unacceptable results, it was for the entire component (morning and afternoon portions). There is no "pass" or "fail" of the morning (AM) or afternoon (PM) portion separately. A candidate must perform at a minimum acceptable level in the morning (AM) and afternoon (PM) in order to receive acceptable results for the entire component. *While a very good performance in the morning is capable of helping a poor performance in the afternoon (and vice versa) a small amount, a candidate must still perform at a certain level on both AM and PM portions in order to achieve acceptable results for a component. So there are minimum levels that must be achieved in both portions.* It is not required to get 40/40 in the morning or all "Acceptables" in the afternoon and there are many combinations of both portions where a candidate can achieve an acceptable component result, but I am unable to provide you with what those combinations are. I am unable to say that a candidate "passed" the AM and "failed" the PM (or vice versa) because NCEES does not release numeric scores or inform candidates of "how many" questions (AM or PM) they needed to get right in order to achieve acceptable results for a component or if they met the minimum required performance for the AM or PM portion.The diagnostic a candidate receives for the AM portion shows candidates how many questions they got correct in each knowledge area and provides an un-scaled graphical representation of how that performance compares to the performance of the average passing candidate. The diagnostic received for the PM portion indicates if a candidate demonstrated minimum competence (Acceptable) or did not demonstrate minimum competence (Improvement Required or Unacceptable). In the latter, Improvement Required is better than Unacceptable in that a little knowledge was demonstrated regarding the subject matter, but still not enough. The quantitative values of Acceptable, Improvement required, and Unacceptable is not shared with candidates. Finally, the Structural Engineering exam is PASSED when a candidate has achieved acceptable results on BOTH components (vertical and lateral) of the exam. This does not have to be done in one exam administration ("sitting" as you referred to it). Upon achieving acceptable results on one component, a candidate then has 5 years to achieve acceptable results on the remaining component. On the other hand, acceptable results for a component are achieved when a candidate has met the minimum required performance on BOTH the morning (AM) and afternoon (PM) portion of that component. That, unlike PASSING the entire exam, must be accomplished in one administration. There is no carryover of a morning (AM) or afternoon (PM) performance to another administration.I hope this answers your questions.


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## BuzzKillington (Aug 5, 2019)

E720 said:


> I hope this answers your questions.


Lol! Presuming that you reached out to them seeking additional clarification regarding passing/failing scores, this is the lengthiest response I have seen for a question, without actually answering the question. The entire response is just an elaboration of what the NCEES website already says. 

I still find it hard to understand why they wouldn't release pass/fail scores for a particular test cycle. I don't know how helpful the un-scaled graphical representation has been for the unlucky test takers, but knowing if they missed by 15 AM questions versus 2, would definitely help them gauge their performance. I don't see the logic behind hiding the passing metrics of any test. Very lame!


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## kevo_55 (Aug 5, 2019)

Let the f bombs in this thread fly!!!


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## Titleistguy (Aug 6, 2019)

Why does it matter if you pass by how much or fail by how much?  It's not like college where you can meet your professor in office hours and discuss or even negotiate a point back here and there.

I'm with the ncees on this...either you pass and then move on ....or you fail and get data.  

If I were to fail, it wouldn't matter if it was by 1 or 10, because first, a fail is a fail and second, the next test will be different so therefore the only useful metric is the area you need to work on ... Which is what they give you.

Besides ... To be honest do you really want to know if you failed by only one AM question?? Because I promise you, just like hearing your buddy's fantasy football squad, no one cares, people only want to know ... Did you pass?  Or did you fail?


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## RBHeadge PE (Aug 6, 2019)

E720 said:


> I hope this answers your questions.


Clear as mud.

I had to read that a couple times to fully understand what they were saying. I don't understand the logic in bringing up the internal designation of "improvement required" and "unacceptable". The author claims that those are invisible to test takers, so why talk about it in the first place and add confusion?



Bazzzinga said:


> I don't know how helpful the un-scaled graphical representation has been for the unlucky test takers, but knowing if they missed by 15 AM questions versus 2, would definitely help them gauge their performance.


I get the pedagogical, metrological, and legal value in showing a graphical representation of performance. I'm not sure how many cathected test takers may initially find the same utility. A test taker can get a ballpark of how far away they were from passing based on how many of the graphical bars were below and far below the 'average passer' in that category.



Bazzzinga said:


> I still find it hard to understand why they wouldn't release pass/fail scores for a particular test cycle. ...  I don't see the logic behind hiding the passing metrics of any test. Very lame!


Go to a NSPE local chapter meeting and talk to the greybeards. You'll get an earful and then you'll understand why its necessary.



Titleistguy said:


> Why does it matter if you pass or fail by how much you pass or fail by?
> 
> I'm with the ncees on this...either you pass and then move on or you fail and get data.
> 
> If I were to fail, it wouldn't matter if it was by 1 or 10, because first a fail is a fail and second, the next test will be different.


@Titleistguy is absolutely correct here.


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## User1 (Aug 6, 2019)

RBHeadge PE said:


> I had to read that a couple times to fully understand what they were saying. I don't understand the logic in bringing up the internal designation of "improvement required" and "unacceptable". The author claims that those are invisible to test takers, so why talk about it in the first place and add confusion?


The results for afternoon are shown as Acceptable, Improvement Required, or Unacceptable, so they are visible in the diagnostic


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## RBHeadge PE (Aug 6, 2019)

I stand corrected


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## User1 (Aug 6, 2019)

RBHeadge PE said:


> I stand corrected


they worded it weird.


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## BuzzKillington (Aug 6, 2019)

RBHeadge PE said:


> I had to read that a couple times to fully understand what they were saying. I don't understand the logic in bringing up the internal designation of "improvement required" and "unacceptable". The author claims that those are invisible to test takers, so why talk about it in the first place and add confusion?


That's exactly my point here. To pass the SE test, one needs to pass both AM and PM sections in a single administration. Do we have any sort of formal understanding of the difference between Improvement required and Unacceptable? If the test taker has a fair grasp of the subject matter and gets an Improvement Required or Unacceptable, with no detailed explanation, what will he/she gain from this? Absolutely nothing! Why give out failing morning scores, when the graphs have all the information one needs? They might as well start recommending the NCEES practice test to those candidates. That will be equally helpful in their preparation!



RBHeadge PE said:


> I get the pedagogical, metrological, and legal value in showing a graphical representation of performance. I'm not sure how many cathected test takers may initially find the same utility. A test taker can get a ballpark of how far away they were from passing based on how many of the graphical bars were below and far below the 'average passer' in that category.﻿﻿


Everyone operates differently. What works for some won't necessarily work for all. Providing additional data (passing metrics) isn't going to hurt anyone.

End of the day, my complaining isn't going to change anything. Fortunately, I got done with this without having to read some stupid graphs.



RBHeadge PE said:


> I stand corrected﻿


@*RBHeadge PE *I see that you are from Mechanical discipline. Are you familiar with the SE test? Continuing this discussion would be a moot point if you aren't.


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## RBHeadge PE (Aug 6, 2019)

Bazzzinga said:


> @*RBHeadge PE *I see that you are from Mechanical discipline. Are you familiar with the SE test? Continuing this argument would be a moot point if you aren't.


You must be new around here....


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## BuzzKillington (Aug 6, 2019)

RBHeadge PE said:


> You must be new around here....﻿﻿


Correct. I am. I just assumed from your responses that you probably haven't taken this 16-hour test.


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## Ranger1316 (Aug 6, 2019)

Bazzzinga said:


> Correct. I am. I just assumed from your responses that you probably haven't taken this 16-hour test.


That didn't sound pompous at all


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## BuzzKillington (Aug 6, 2019)

Ranger1316 said:


> That didn't sound pompous a﻿t al﻿l


Alright! I guess I got frustrated with NCEES and how they administer the exam and distribute the results. My bad for expressing it here.


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Aug 6, 2019)

Bazzzinga said:


> Alright! I guess I got frustrated with NCEES and how they administer the exam and distribute the results. My bad for expressing it here.


Rest assured, you’re in good company here. We all share a common enemy, even if it’s not exactly the same test we’re taking.

I haven’t taken the SE either (nor do I intend to), but I do appreciate learning about people’s experiences with it, as well as trying to read between the lines of NCEES’s statements. Keeps the brain moving.


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## BuzzKillington (Aug 6, 2019)

ChebyshevII_PE said:


> Rest assured, you’re in good company here.


Phew!!! After seeing the reactions here, I was totally expecting an angry mob eagerly waiting for me outside the office building.


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## User1 (Aug 6, 2019)

ChebyshevII_PE said:


> I haven’t taken the SE either (nor do I intend to),


WHY

does mafia not have to take the SE?


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Aug 6, 2019)

tj_PE said:


> WHY
> 
> does mafia not have to take the SE?


“Load calculations” means something completely different in my discipline.


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Aug 6, 2019)

tj_PE said:


> WHY
> 
> does mafia not have to take the SE?



For anyone wondering, the above is what @tj_PE is referring to...come play, and forget your frustrations with NCEES for a time! (Or observe for now, we are in the middle of a round at this moment...)


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## User1 (Aug 6, 2019)

ChebyshevII_PE said:


> “Load calculations” means something completely different in my ﻿discipline.


LMAO 

all this time I just assumed you were structural

so ded


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## User1 (Aug 6, 2019)

ChebyshevII_PE said:


> For anyone wondering, the above is what @tj_PE is referring to...come play! (Or observe for now, we are in the middle of a round at this moment...)


seeeeee shameless plug!! woo


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## Ranger1316 (Aug 6, 2019)

Bazzzinga said:


> Alright! I guess I got frustrated with NCEES and how they administer the exam and distribute the results. My bad for expressing it here.


NCEES is just a synonym for frustrating lol and it sounds like we're both just glad to be done


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## RBHeadge PE (Aug 6, 2019)

ChebyshevII_PE said:


> “Load calculations” means something completely different in my discipline.


It took me a second to realize what you were talking about, then i realized it means something different to the civils.



Ranger1316 said:


> NCEES is just a synonym for frustrating lol and it sounds like we're both just glad to be done


Yep, and I'm never doing that again!


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## RBHeadge PE (Aug 6, 2019)

Bazzzinga said:


> Phew!!! After seeing the reactions here, I was totally expecting an angry mob eagerly waiting for me outside the office building.
> 
> View attachment 13608


That can still be arranged. Who's your favorite football team? 

But before you answer please be aware though that there is only one correct answer, but the other OGs on this board have their own (incorrect) opinion too. _So really, no matter what answer, you're gonna see pitchforks and torches._


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Aug 6, 2019)

RBHeadge PE said:


> That can still be arranged. Who's your favorite football team?
> 
> But before you answer please be aware though that there is only one correct answer, but the other OGs on this board have their own (incorrect) opinion too. _So really, no matter what answer, you're gonna see pitchforks and torches._


I’ll give you a hint: Broncos.


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## BuzzKillington (Aug 6, 2019)

@RBHeadge PE &amp;  @ChebyshevII_PE, I don't think it would be wise to disclose that information here.

Also, no matter what I say, you guys will give me an "Unacceptable," (or maybe "Improvement Required" if I'm lucky).


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