# Fingerprinting for PE License Renewal



## cableguy

Just curious if any other states require this. Texas starts next year. All PE's must get fingerprints taken for license renewal. Yes, all 50k of us. This is part of Senate Bill 204, which was passed in the most recent legislative session. Cost will be around $42 to have the fingerprints done at a DPS-approved facility, unless you're from out of state, and then you get to jump through extra hoops.

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/tlodocs/83R/analysis/html/SB00204I.htm


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## envirotex

Thanks for posting this...I hadn't seen it, yet. I don't like it. I guess I should actually read the TBPE newsletter.


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## kevo_55

CA will most likely do this for new applicants.

I'm not so sure for existing license holders though.


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## Dexman PE PMP

What is the reasoning behind this requirement?


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## envirotex

It actually doesn't say anything about it yet on the TBPE...I mean, seriously, how are they going to notify everyone, and get this done for 57,970 licensed engineers. Most engineers' renewals are due either 9/30/13 or 3/31/14. That's not much time, and NO notice. And that doesn't even account for how over reaching this is.

Stupid politicians.


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## envirotex

Dexman PE said:


> What is the reasoning behind this requirement?


Have you seen the circus that is our legislature, lately? They don't have to have a reason for anything...

An engineer sponsored the bill, though...

http://www.nichols.senate.state.tx.us/


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## cableguy

One thing that I forgot to mention is that this is a one-time-only deal; it's not yearly fingerprints, it's just once - for the 2014 renewal (and all new PE's thereafter). This is for background checks.

However, here it is nearly August, and they don't have a plan to present yet. You will need to take the "special code" for the TBPE submittal with you to Morphotrust (the vendor of choice) so that your prints get sent to the right agency - prints done for other licenses (such as CHL) do not count and are not usable. The "special code" does not exist yet.


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## Capt Worley PE

Are they gonna check plans for your seal, sig, date, AND fingerprints, now?

Sounds like someone got a kickback from the fingerprinting vendor on this deal. I can think of no logical reason for it.


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## snickerd3

probably so they can start making more $ via discipline. If you were a little shady in your personal life it could cost you in your professional life.


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## snickerd3

for the moral infractions...depending on the state statute


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## Capt Worley PE

snickerd3 said:


> for the moral infractions...depending on the state statute




How's having prints gonna help them?


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## snickerd3

finger prints could mean they have been arrested or have a police file. depending what they did whether they were charged or not could be considered a moral indiscretion and fined and disciplinced accordingly.


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## snickerd3

I know Arizona medical license statute has moral behavior clause in it.


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## blybrook PE

Will they accept other forms of ID that required fingerprinting as adequate background information, or do they want the prints themselves? I mean those that have TWIC cards or Concealed Carry Licenses have undergone the fingerprinting process already and they obviously don't have any background issues.

I did warn my boss about this change as he has the Texas license and it'll be up for renewal soon enough. Will be interested to know how this is going to work for out of state licenses.


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## Capt Worley PE

snickerd3 said:


> I know Arizona medical license statute has moral behavior clause in it.




Sure, most states do.

But my point is, prints are useless for checking on the criminal status of a person. And I KNOW they don't run background checks on licensee renewals (or new licenses). They rely on someone telling on someone else.


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## cableguy

blybrook PE said:


> Will they accept other forms of ID that required fingerprinting as adequate background information, or do they want the prints themselves? I mean those that have TWIC cards or Concealed Carry Licenses have undergone the fingerprinting process already and they obviously don't have any background issues.
> 
> I did warn my boss about this change as he has the Texas license and it'll be up for renewal soon enough. Will be interested to know how this is going to work for out of state licenses.




No, they will not accept other prints or licenses (such as Texas Concealed Handgun License) - we asked this specifically. This will be yet another trip to the fingerprint scanner.

The first period affected will be those whose renewals expire 3/31/14. No fingerprints = no renewal, as I understand it.


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## envirotex

^^^ CG, is that date what you heard directly from the board? Also, who will run and pay for the background check, the state?

Also, Texas already requires a thumbprint to get a driver's license or a DL renewal.


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## Dexman PE PMP

Just another way to expand the database bigbrother uses to watch over us...


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## cableguy

No I did not hear that specific date from the board (David Howell was who spoke to us - TBPE Director of Licensing). He was just saying "2014 renewal". I am _ass_uming that it begins at the start of 2014, and I am assuming that since that's the first renewal date, it would be the first batch. I could be wrong though. Just getting my disclaimer out there.


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## Capt Worley PE

Cabin in the woods time draws nearer and nearer....


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## cableguy

You know, honestly, I don't have a problem with them doing background checks. But these state agencies should work together, instead of each one setting up their own system. If you have a license through which you've already done a background check - I believe teachers, realtors, concealed handgun, etc. need to do this - then I shouldn't be required to submit my fingerprints _again_. My prints haven't changed (though that soldering iron burn I got on Saturday sure put a welt on the tip of my left middle finger  ).


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## envirotex

^^^Just hold that one up for them so they can print that one again...


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## cableguy

lol


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## solomonb

My understanding of the Texas rule, which I fall under is that ALL other professional licensees in Texas are required to have fingerprints provided before they are issued a professional license in the State of Texas. Engineers for some reason were exempt from this requirement until this legislative session. The legislator who is a Professional Engineer who sponsored the legislation seemed to think, (as I understand it) that if everyone else who is professionally state licensed were not exempt from this rule, then Professional Engineers should not be either. He then had legislation drafted to make the fingerprint requirement apply to all PE in the 2014 license renewal period.

What is most frustrating is that if they know that the requirement is coming, why not get on with it? If you have a set of fingerprints on file for some other reason, then why are those prints not satisfactory for this purpose? Sadly, there is thinking that was failed to be accomplished here and the rest of us who can think are stuck-- just like Dilbert is with the Pointy Haired Boss.

This is Dilbert, all the way!!


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## cableguy

And nothing ever goes wrong with this stuff...

Local Women Indicted For Identity Theft: Scheme Could Affect Thousands

Integrated Biometrics Technology - the company above - is an L1 Solutions Company, which changed its name to... Morphotrust.


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## pgm44

Thanks for posting. I just read through the sunset report and the fingerprinting justification (http://www.sunset.state.tx.us/83rd/eng/eng_sr.pdf). They claim the benefit is more accurate identification of criminals using PE licenses compared to their current method of running background checks via name and other identifying information. They dont appear to state that they have found any problems with the current system, only that it is not as good as fingerprinting. I'll do it because I have to but those of you who live in Texas should share their thoughts with the senator who sponsored this bill. It does not really protect the public any better. It's just more paperwork.

As an extra benefit though I also just read that this same senator is against passing the "no texting" while driving bill (at least this year). I dont know what's in it because I dont live in Texas anymore but texting while driving in Texas is obviously less dangerous than allowing engineers in Texas to renew their licenses without taking their fingerprints (or so it would seem).


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## Master slacker

envirotex said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the reasoning behind this requirement?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen the circus that is our legislature, lately? They don't have to have a reason for anything...
> 
> An _*engineer*_ sponsored the bill, though...
> 
> http://www.nichols.senate.state.tx.us/
Click to expand...



Really?

*Education:* Lamar University, B.S., Industrial Engineering, 1968

I keed, I keed!


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## ptatohed

Perhaps I am missing something but I can only think of two possible uses for fingerprints. 1.) There is an existing unsolved crime in which the police have crime scene fingerprints but no suspect(s) or 2.) A future crime is committed in which the police obtain crime scene fingerprints. Right?


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## envirotex

I received my renewal notice via email earlier this week. It didn't say anything about fingerprinting, so I am thinking that this won't be in effect until after 2014...


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## pgm44

When I looked this up a few weeks ago the board site said they were starting the fingerprint program with the March 2014 renewals. Looks like you lucked out this year.


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## tftftf

Nobody can provide a good reason for requiring engineers to be fingerprinted or in many cases re-fingerprinted. It's not like banks are being held up by gangs of felon engineers roaming the streets. I just don't see a real need or public outcry for these measures.

Many engineers already undergo background checks, drug tests, etc. They may also have TWIC (Transportation Worker Identification Credential ) and GOES (Global Entry), which require electronic fingerprinting and are already entered into various state and federal government databases.

All of these requirements are burdensome for business. Rather than requesting everyone get re-fingerprinted by MorphoTrust to the tune of $2.5 million, it seems TBPE should be working more closely with existing state agencies to reduce government bureaucracy and waste.

The new law states fingerprints should be submitted to TBPE "or" DPS and FBI. Someone that has Texas CHL would already have fingerprints on file at DPS and FBI. They would also not have any criminal history. But this does not seem to satisfy TBPE.

===========================

This was the response from David Howell, P.E.
Director of Licensing, Texas Board of Professional Engineers

Unfortunately, the statute and the DPS system don’t give us any options for using an existing criminal records check for TBPE purposes.

512-440-3054 | http://engineers.texas.gov

1917 S. Interstate 35, Austin, TX 78741-3702

===========================

Engineers concerned about this new law and TBPE creating a seemingly redundant database should contact the sponsors listed below. It's hard to believe these gentlemen are Republicans that claim to be conservatives fighting for limited government.

Texas Senator Nichols

http://www.nichols.senate.state.tx.us/

Texas Rep Four Price

http://www.house.state.tx.us/members/member-page/?district=87

*www.fourprice*.org/‎

and Governor Perry that signed it

http://www.governor.state.tx.us/


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## tftftf

Here is the history for HB1676

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/BillLookup/History.aspx?LegSess=83R&amp;Bill=HB1676

No specific mention of "fingerprinting" in the summary, only "changing a fee" and "criminal records".

and history for SB204

http://www.legis.state.tx.us/BillLookup/history.aspx?LegSess=83R&amp;Bill=SB204

Again no mention of "fingerprinting" on that webpage...


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## tftftf

It appears that Texas architects did not support fingerprinting either.

https://texasarchitects.org/v/blog-detail/Advocacy-Update-SAC-Fingerprinting-Requirements/fr/


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## Power63

Is this a foregone conclusion, or is there a chance the legislature will repeal it?

Does NSPE have a position on this?

I may need to apply for a Texas license in the next year for a possible upcoming project.


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## tftftf

National Society of Professional Engineers (NSPE) is aware of the passage of SB204 in Texas, but does not currently have a formal position on criminal background checks for engineers. Our Legislative and Government Affairs Committee will carefully consider this issue at their next meeting in a few weeks. The only other state that appears to be considering criminal background checks is California.


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## tftftf

More information on fingerprinting of professional engineers in Texas.

http://engineers.texas.gov/recordcheck.html

http://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/statute_summary_90113.pdf

See section 1001.3035

http://engineers.texas.gov/downloads/law_rules_92913.pdf

California plans for fingerprinting.

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/about_us/420_lang.pdf

http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/about_us/420_3021_lang.pdf


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## tftftf

http://www.amstarengineeringinc.com/sunset.html


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## rktman

Sounds like a long backstory on the link above. I have to renew mine next year. I hope they get the bugs worked out soon.

As a side note, I spoke to an attorney friend. He said that if lawyers were made to do criminal checks, there would a lot fewer of them.


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## jack99

I sent this to Sen. Robert Nichols website (and his co-sponsors website), many weeks ago. I wrote:

""I fully agree with House Research Organization bill analysis (SB204) which says:

"Requiring renewal applicants to submit fingerprints would make this streamlined renewal process more difficult for both the board and for the license holders, some of whom have held licenses for decades and have not committed a crime. Submitting fingerprints would be intrusive and unnecessary because the current method of performing background checks works well."



I have been a PE for many years and will not be renewing my license.

I have no objection to a background check, but will not be submitting my fingerprints. "

http://www.hro.house.state.tx.us/pdf/ba83R/SB0204.PDF

Didn't hear anything back from them. I guess your representatives only respond when they agree with you.

It seems they consider all 50,000+ engineers guilty until proven innocent. Most people would probably draw the line at DNA testing, when is comes to freedom intrusion. The line for me just happens to be fingerprints.


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## pgm44

Well, I started the fingerprinting process today. I got to enjoy sitting on the phone for 35 minutes to find out that the they know their online form has an error in it but they have not had time to correct it yet (or to add a note to tell users what to do). The instructions the board mails you to resolve this problem are incorrect too, which of coarse means the Texas board is aware of the issue and has not made sure it was fixed either. The work around is quick so I will share it with you below to save you the phone call.

After you register for your fast pass (it's nothing like the disneyland fast pass) on website #1 - step 1 (https://engineers.texas.gov/recordcheck.html), you then have to go to a different website in step #2 and enter some information from website number 1. Once you enter that information then you get a form where you have to enter your address, height, weight, drivers license number, ...

The problem is the form wont let you continue if your drivers license number has more than 8 digits (or so it says). The board provides instructions that if you have more than 8 digits then just enter the last 8. It turns out the drivers license entry must have exactly 8 digits, and you cant enter any alphanumeric letters, and all zeros did not work for me. So if your license has any alphanumeric letters in it then it will not work. Per the phone operator, just enter the number 9 eight times and select "other" for the drivers license "class". It worked.

The person on the phone did tell me that they get this _question_ all the time.  Somehow that did not make my sitting on the phone for 35 minutes to find that out feel like less time.

Hope this saves you time if you run into the problem. Now that I started the process they are probably already feeling safer in Texas.


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## Krakosky

I got my TX PE in December via NCEES Record. Does this mean I won't need to get printed until I'm up for renewal?


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## pgm44

I think you get a pass until your renewal in 2015. They should have the bugs worked out by then.


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## Boomer01 PE

My boss is going through the process now and I will have to do it in June. It makes no sense.


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## snickerd3

illinois would then nail you for providing false information if just entering all 9s for the driver license #


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## Serg305

It's another layer of bureaucracy..


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