# Thailand Soccer Team



## Road Guy (Jul 3, 2018)

man how did this adult F up so bad to be in this situation?

- youth soccer team trapped in cave as water rises - may have to learn to scuba dive to escape -

https://www.cnn.com/2018/07/03/asia/thai-rescue-next-phase-intl/index.html


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## Supe (Jul 3, 2018)

Holy sh*t!  It sure sounds like they had to be way off the beaten path to have been exploring in the first place.  WTF?  Serious question - how can they leave them there for months?  Where is the feces/waste going?  I'd imagine the water is stagnant in that part now that its filled to where it is.


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## Road Guy (Jul 3, 2018)

And apparently none of them can swim? Guess one option is to wait till water recedes in 4 months? Jesus Christ -


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## Supe (Jul 3, 2018)

Sounds like they need to get drilling.  Otherwise, it's the Navy SEAL, one by one, establishing a rope lead line for the kids to follow since visibility is zero.


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## Road Guy (Jul 3, 2018)

Cave diving in clear yet dark water scares the shit out of me (only stuck my head in a few) can't imagine a kid who can't swim dealing with that - they may have to force the regulator in their mouth for a long swim

Almost like they need to make them unconscious and put a full face mask regulator on each one and tow them out


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## txjennah PE (Jul 3, 2018)

I just read about this story earlier - what a nightmare   I'm glad the kids are okay, and I hope they don't have to spend the next four months in a cave. I read that 2 doctors volunteered to stay with them in case they do, which I think is really selfless.

I'm a weenie, so there's zero chance I'd want to explore a cave unless it's a heavily curated experience with zero chance of getting stuck.


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## Supe (Jul 3, 2018)

I tend not to put myself in situations where a parts failure results in drowning.  I've worked on too many cars and too many power plants to trust a part not to fail, regardless of how good the manufacturer's QA or ISO program may be...


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## youngmotivatedengineer (Jul 3, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> And apparently none of them can swim? Guess one option is to wait till water recedes in 4 months? Jesus Christ -


The problem isn't just the water receding otherwise they'd already have it pumped out. This is the start of their rainy season, and they are expecting heavy storms at the end of the week which could refill the caves they've been pumping.


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## Szar (Jul 4, 2018)

youngmotivatedengineer said:


> The problem isn't just the water receding otherwise they'd already have it pumped out. This is the start of their rainy season, and they are expecting heavy storms at the end of the week which could refill the caves they've been pumping.


You would think they would have some type of inflatable gerbil tunnel that could be snaked through the cave.

I should invent one otherwise.


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## YMZ PE (Jul 4, 2018)

They were nine days in the cave with flooded passageways before they were found. Hopefully that means there's some source of air and therefore an opening to the outside they can access? Or at least that could mean the rock is stable enough to hold up a kilometer-long drilled hole.


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## Road Guy (Jul 5, 2018)

I cant imagine spending 9 days in the dark like that - I am assuming they just drank the cave water?

Today the news said its taking the professional  / military divers 5-6 hours to reach them from the opening, I cant imagine getting them out via scuba is really an option?


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## snickerd3 (Jul 5, 2018)

from the map i saw there is a lot of dry in between the water sections.  so suit up dive, un hook and walk, suit up again and dive, repeat.


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## Road Guy (Jul 5, 2018)

Easier said than done though, especially if they cant swim (probably afraid of water) - I've seen people who wanted to learn to scuba totally freak out once they get underwater - I guess if the kids can get it into there heads that you will basically learn to do this or die - just really sucks they are in this situation...


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## Dleg (Jul 5, 2018)

Just need some industrial dive helmets / full face masks. Spend some time pre-positioning them at all the exit / entrance spots. Then swim them out one by one.


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## Szar (Jul 5, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> Easier said than done though, especially if they cant swim (probably afraid of water) - I've seen people who wanted to learn to scuba totally freak out once they get underwater - I guess if the kids can get it into there heads that you will basically learn to do this or die - just really sucks they are in this situation...


Simple:


Knock the kids out,

strap a mask to their face and duct tape it for good measure,

lash the kids to their backs,  (These are Navy Seals after all) 

and pull everyone out through the tunnel. 

We are engineers!  We can science the shit out of this!

(Although, this story sounds like a Darwin award in the making.)


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## YMZ PE (Jul 5, 2018)

Szar said:


> (Although, this story sounds like a Darwin award in the making.)


That's more than a little unfair. The monsoon rains come on hard and fast in that part of the country. The current of water suddenly entering the cave would have made it difficult for even an experienced swimmer to try to leave the cave once the entrance was flooded, to say nothing of a scared kid who doesn't know how to swim. They managed to find dry ground in the dark and survived 9 days without food, light or hope before they were found - together. This is the opposite of a Darwin award case.


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## Road Guy (Jul 5, 2018)

well these are "_Thai Navy Seals_" while not saying they are not qualified, I don't think they are in the same league as US Navy Seals.

What I saw on a scuba site was the cave diving community / experts were advising that having the boys scuba out should be the last resort.

This is a more detailed map of the cave than I have seen on the regular news -


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 5, 2018)

https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/world/its-one-three-most-dangerous-dives-ive-done-expert-diver-says-thai-cave-football-team-stuck-labyrinth



> 'It's one of the three most dangerous dives I've done' - expert diver says


This was on the news last night.


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## Road Guy (Jul 5, 2018)

^ - The Brits are known for having the best Cave Dive Rescue folks around so glad to hear they have them on site. I doubt even US Navy Seals deal with cave diving, totally different world..


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## Szar (Jul 5, 2018)

YMZ PE said:


> That's more than a little unfair. The monsoon rains come on hard and fast in that part of the country. The current of water suddenly entering the cave would have made it difficult for even an experienced swimmer to try to leave the cave once the entrance was flooded, to say nothing of a scared kid who doesn't know how to swim. They managed to find dry ground in the dark and survived 9 days without food, light or hope before they were found - together. This is the opposite of a Darwin award case.


Would not caving during monsoon season be a good lesson learned?

My heart goes out to them, but your spelunking / caving in what seems like a fairly complex cave system with im guessing inadequate knowledge of the area and conditions.

my view on the matter is you only go into the earth when your dead.  i aint rushing it. (Claustrophobic too]


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## YMZ PE (Jul 5, 2018)

Szar said:


> my view on the matter is you only go into the earth when your dead.  i aint rushing it. (Claustrophobic too]


I'll agree with that!


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## mudpuppy (Jul 6, 2018)

So I heard on the news this morning that one of the rescue divers died in the cave after delivering oxygen tanks to the area where the kids are, due to lack of oxygen.  It's not clear to me if he drowned or if he was in a chamber above water with too little oxygen.

Either way, that's going to be quite a rescue for the kids if it killed a navy diver.


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## Road Guy (Jul 6, 2018)

man its hard to find a news story on this that isn't a video that wont load or filled with pop up ads. but it does seem like he collapsed inside the cave? F'd up situation all around.. Some of the pictures I saw showed a ton of people inside the cave - wonder if this was a freak accident with one persons health or just too many people inside the cave - it looks like they ran cables and power even?

We just have to hope they have the best and brightest people on this...


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## csb (Jul 6, 2018)

They've started to really talk about the lack of oxygen. The article I read said that the deceased diver was a retired SEAL who was volunteering his time. He was placing oxygen in places where there may be stretches too long for one tank. 

Count me in on never doing anything like this, because tight spaces creep me out, as does being underwater. I can snorkel, but I first have to get over the screaming in my head about putting my face in the water. I can't imagine trying to take a kid who's never swam through this ordeal- seems like they'd be a very large hazard to the trained dive team.


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## txjennah PE (Jul 6, 2018)

It's heartbreaking that someone already lost his life for this.  If experts are dying while trying to get to the kids, I can't imagine that teaching the kids how to dive would work very well. But I know that they are running out of options.


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## Road Guy (Jul 6, 2018)

i saw some pics of the opening of the cave and it looks like there was steps, handrail, so this must be a common activity in the area?


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 6, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> i saw some pics of the opening of the cave and it looks like there was steps, handrail, so this must be a common activity in the area?


I would think so. I can't understand how anyone with children could get as deep into the cave as they are without it being at least somewhat established. I could see them getting to a certain point, seeing the water level rise behind them and then pushing forward deeper into the unknown.

It's a shame to read that an experienced diver already passed away from this rescue. It really speaks to the hazards involved here. I've heard that cave diving is the most dangerous sport in the world. I've done enough spelunking and open water diving to know that cave diving is a really bad idea and it may be _that_ dangerous. I've done some limited diving in a clear limestone cave, with guide ropes and a guide. I never felt unsafe... but I also knew that I'd be completely f*#%ed if the guide had a heart attack. My guess is that if I were in their situation that I could probably make it out with the following assumptions: proper pre-swim nutrition, proper hydration throughout the swim, adequate air supplies (obviously), a guide, a guideline or rope outlining the path, a light source if only to provide a physiological security-blanket. But bear in mind that I am a strong and natural endurance swimmer, have experience spelunking, experienced swimming and minor diving in limestone caves, I'm not claustrophobic, and I can handle the dark but prefer some light to move at a decent speed. I don't know about the last two, but it appears that none of this really applies to the people stuck in that cave, you can't crash course those other things easily.

Knocking the kids out and dragging them by rope is not an option. full stop. There are probably some tight spaces that require active negotiation to get through. Their lack of swimming skills will be lethal to themselves and others. They'll need to swim over a mile, against the current with almost no stopping. Most casual swimmers can't even do that - that really only applies to competitive swimmers, or others that do distance swimming regularly for fun. I can't imagine an malnourished kid doing it without a lot of help. They'll need other guides to pull them along, space get tight and oxygen limited. Adrenaline is the enemy here.

Musk with SpaceX and his borehole company are coming in to look it to make a potential air tunnel. They've got an idea but want some ground truth.  I just don't see it being very viable but I don't have much experience with mining engineering. Your fighting buoyancy, long distances, tight spaces with sharp points and no tolerance for leaks. Is there enough of the materials available now to make such a tunnel? Could it be made quickly? Let's say that the tunnel could be made and inflated without leaks - doesn't this have the potential to block the only available entry and exit points. What if something goes wrong beyond a choke point where people are still trapped?


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## Szar (Jul 6, 2018)

Just a few tidbits from different news sources.


"The trapped group consists of boys aged 11 to 16, and their *25-year-old football coach*."  (Hes basically a kid himself.)

and from CNN reporting locals accounts:


The Tham Luang Nang Non caves are known locally as *off-limits, a dangerous place where parents warn their children not to go into, especially during monsoon season.*

"I couldn't believe this would happen to my students. In the classroom, *I brought this subject up to teach students. You see, look at this event ... it happened because they were not being careful, their actions has caused a lot of worry and create all kinds of issues to all*," he says.

Not placing blame, but the news agencies don't seem to be reporting that this was a known no-go but they did it anyway type of thing.


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 6, 2018)

Dexman PE PMP said:


> https://www.tvnz.co.nz/one-news/world/its-one-three-most-dangerous-dives-ive-done-expert-diver-says-thai-cave-football-team-stuck-labyrinth
> 
> This was on the news last night.


OKay, I just read that article and saw this quote:



> “Some of the passages are about 8cm in diameter, you can't go through with conventional scuba gear, you have to take off your gear, push through, dig a little bit and zero visibility, feeling your way until you're past the passage.


Firstly this has to be an exaggeration or a type of some kind. Trying to squeeze through a 3" crack isn't possible for humans . How'd those kids make it through there in the first place?! That's way too tight and challenging a cave for a novice.

I retract my earlier statement, if it's that tight, I wouldn't be able to to this. I'd wait a few months for the waters to recede, or for a hole to be dug from above to get me.


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## csb (Jul 6, 2018)

It's the absolute darkness in caves that really creeps me out. There's no waiting for your eyes to adjust, because there's no light.


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## Road Guy (Jul 6, 2018)

we explored several different wild caves through scouts when I was a kid, but we always had a map and these were well documented / surveyed caves - &amp; I don't think we had to worry about the monsoon season in N. Ga / Tennessee - but it was always a very fun but serious event, they would always at some point make everyone turn out their lights and basically say, see you cant see and if you get lost, run out of batteries you are fucked! (except we didn't say the F word in scouts) 

I took some friends back to the same caves when I was older, we got lost trying to find the lake which supposedly existed in the bottom layers (never found it) but we did make a wrong turn and came to a dead end, someone had made the devils face in the clay at the dead end, scared this shit out of us - that was my last time caving, even though I had been in that same cave at least 10 times, I still found myself a little lost (with a map) no real bearing down there once you get past where all the locals spray paint there names in the first 1/4 mile

I also stopped logging dives around 500 - but I never had any desire to do cave diving or go inside of wrecks - you are already dealing with a dangerous situation and then making it 1000X more risky.

I am still 0% qualified to offer any real advice - not a praying person but I have said a few for these kids - not sure why but I just cant get this out of my head..


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## Dleg (Jul 6, 2018)

Here's a decent graphic of the cave and dive requirements.


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## Dleg (Jul 6, 2018)

Also, does it make me a bad person that I googled "thailand cave memes"?  I am relieved to report I didn't find any.

yet.


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## Szar (Jul 6, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> we explored several different wild caves through scouts when I was a kid, but we always had a map and these were well documented / surveyed caves - &amp; I don't think we had to worry about the monsoon season in N. Ga / Tennessee - but it was always a very fun but serious event, they would always at some point make everyone turn out their lights and basically say, see you cant see and if you get lost, run out of batteries you are fucked! (except we didn't say the F word in scouts)
> 
> I took some friends back to the same caves when I was older, we got lost trying to find the lake which supposedly existed in the bottom layers (never found it) but we did make a wrong turn and came to a dead end, someone had made the devils face in the clay at the dead end, scared this shit out of us - that was my last time caving, even though I had been in that same cave at least 10 times, I still found myself a little lost (with a map) no real bearing down there once you get past where all the locals spray paint there names in the first 1/4 mile
> 
> ...


This (your story) reminds me of  one of Indiana Jones movie when he was younger in the caves.


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 8, 2018)

They've started the process of extracting everyone from the cave. They've drained the water level as much as possible and they want to get started before the weather turns against them later today. Extraction will require swimming and diving and each victim will have two buddy divers per victim to guide them through the entire way.


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## Supe (Jul 9, 2018)

Sounds like 5 are out as of this morning, so whatever their plan is, it must be working.


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## Road Guy (Jul 9, 2018)

this is just amazing, hope all these boys get out and then get a "Wild Boars" tattoo!

In this situation would you want to be in the first group out or the last? Seems like having to wait to be the last group would be a little nerve racking..

Hope they throw the rescue teams a massive party after this!


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 9, 2018)

First group, and either the first or second person depending on if they did a "pathfinder" style exercise first.

Generally in these situations they usually get the healthier and more capable people out first, so being told you're last is usually a bad thing. Also, the longer you wait the better chance for something to go wrong or for the rains to increase and further complicate the situation.


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## csb (Jul 9, 2018)

Reports were the healthiest were taken out first.


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## Szar (Jul 9, 2018)

Im glad they are being rescued but it kinda seems anticlimactic after all the hype and dangers.   how "tesla" engineers were flying in and talking about boring down to save them and lack of oxygen (ironically due to all the people trying to save them using it up) and rising flood waters.

In the end, some sumps and they ended up being able to walk most of the way with a few (albeot challenging) dives.  (at least thats what i heard the rescue turned into)


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## Road Guy (Jul 9, 2018)

csb said:


> Reports were the healthiest were taken out first.


I actually heard the opposite that they took out the weakest first?


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 9, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> I actually heard the opposite that they took out the weakest first?


I'd be a little surprised if they went that route. Unless the doctors figured that they were sick enough that needed the earlier hospitalization and the more favorable exit environment, but not so sick that they would jeopardize the rescue of the stronger victims.


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## Dleg (Jul 9, 2018)

Maybe they went with the weakest ones first?  Here's quote from the on-going breaking news blog on CNN:



> The four boys who were evacuated from a cave in northern Thailand Monday were in better condition than those who were rescued Sunday, Narongsak Osotthanakorn, rescue mission commander, said at a press conference moments ago.
> 
> Osotthanakorn would not elaborate but did say all the boys who have been rescued are in good condition.
> 
> ...


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## Szar (Jul 9, 2018)

A Clear map of the latest flooded areas.


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## csb (Jul 9, 2018)

Dleg said:


> Maybe they went with the weakest ones first?  Here's quote from the on-going breaking news blog on CNN:


Nah, the weakest ones are still in the cave. They just went with the weaker ones first.


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## Supe (Jul 10, 2018)

11 out.  Down to one boy inside plus the coach.


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 10, 2018)

> _*[Breaking News: Thai cave rescue ends with all 12 boys and soccer coach brought to safety, Thai navy says* _]


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## Road Guy (Jul 10, 2018)

tonight at 11 - public flogging of the coach?


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## txjennah PE (Jul 10, 2018)

I'm so relieved this story has a happy ending.

I hope all the kids and the coach can recover not only physically, but emotionally. I can't imagine what 2+ weeks trapped in a cave will do for the psyche.


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## Szar (Jul 10, 2018)

So with all said an done... was this just media over-hyped?  

I do not doubt it was potentially dangerous as a diver did die or that the boys would have survived if left alone, but the efforts actually required to save them were all pretty low tech, strait forward, and rapidly advanced.


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 10, 2018)

I'm still waiting to hear that all of the rescuers have gotten out of the cave safety. One already died during operations so it's not a sure thing that everyone will get out.



txjennah said:


> I can't imagine what 2+ weeks trapped in a cave will do for the psyche.


Really bad things.



Szar said:


> So with all said an done... was this just media over-hyped?
> 
> but the efforts actually required to save them were all pretty low tech, strait forward, and rapidly advanced.


Over-hyped, no. I didn't really see it as top line coverage anywhere, or if it was it got pushed down fast. It wasn't covered much until they found the survivors.



Szar said:


> but the efforts actually required to save them were all pretty low tech, strait forward, and rapidly advanced.


K.I.S.S.


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## Road Guy (Jul 10, 2018)

Saw this graphic of the escape set up - pretty cool and a great idea to not make the kids have to deal with the tank on their back.






The news pics showed a ton of gear brought into help the boys - lights, blankets, etc I assume and hope they wait till after the rain season ends before going back for any of that shit..


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## MA_PE (Jul 10, 2018)

sure the graphic is great plan until you get to that restriction that's only ~20 inches wide......


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## Road Guy (Jul 10, 2018)

but this way the kid doesn't have to take his BCD / Tank off and push it through - only the professional


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 10, 2018)

Honestly, this is just another example of a lot of arm-chair social media quarterbacking of a situation that none of us were really "in the know."  Yes, the media may have given us a good general idea of what was going on, but the fact that a professional rescue diver died leads me to believe this ended up being a lot more complex than any of us will ever understand.


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## Road Guy (Jul 10, 2018)

And I think we can all agree the rescue divers must normally carry their balls in a wheelbarrow

And again where is the go fund me for hookers and blow for the wild boars!

Being that young and faced with - stay here and die or try and escape and probably die...

They deserve it!


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## MA_PE (Jul 10, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> but this way the kid doesn't have to take his BCD / Tank off and push it through - only the professional


absolutely just the arm-chair QBs will say "look how easy it is".  It's my understanding that the dives had to remove their stuff individually to traverse the small passages as well as pass the kid off to each other and no-doubt keep him calm too.  Nothing short of a miracle that no one was lost (except the unfortunate happening with the one rescuer).


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## Szar (Jul 10, 2018)

MA_PE said:


> absolutely just the arm-chair QBs will say "look how easy it is".  It's my understanding that the dives had to remove their stuff individually to traverse the small passages as well as pass the kid off to each other and no-doubt keep him calm too.  Nothing short of a miracle that no one was lost (except the unfortunate happening with the one rescuer).


I think part of it is most people don't have any experience or ability to relate to this incident.  Its Scuba Diving, in a dark cave, narrow passages, with with fast currents.  As I understand it from you guys, that's difficult and a very niche experience.

Personally speaking, my only comparison is snorkeling in a pool.  I just though they they could strap a mask on them and pull them through the tunnel with a winch, so its probably best I deal with Electricity and not people as my job.


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## Dleg (Jul 10, 2018)

I think any sort of rescue attempt in a wilderness / cave setting is going to be extremely difficult, no matter how it may look from the outside. Having been involved above-water in a very difficult and traumatic wilderness rescue, I can say that getting someone out who is unable to help themselves is something that can seem impossible from the ground-level/responder view, and ultimately ends up just like it did here, with a lot of pretty simple carrying of people out, but under great difficulty and duress. It's very different to be the one on the ground who has to move someone who is injured and/or helpless through a rugged obstacle vs. someone watching from a TV set. At least these kids weren't incapacitated, that would have made this virtually impossible.


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## RBHeadge PE (Jul 12, 2018)

There are now reports that they were heavily sedated, and carried and swam through and out of the cave via stretchers. There were earlier reports that they were given medication to reduce anxiety and keep them calm, but not to the point of knocking them out. The trouble is that those medications tend to also dull the senses or make people drowsy, which isn't a great combination for a physically and mentally challenging task. Taking them out via stretcher probably reduced risk by removing the kids unpredictable behavior from the equation. My guess is that they did some practice runs with mannequins on stretchers to see if it was viable. And once they proved it would work they implemented it.

It's all starting to make sense now why they took out the weaker first. If they were sedated and carried out, then they can't accidentally cause disruptions to later rescues.


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## Road Guy (Jul 12, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> Cave diving in clear yet dark water scares the shit out of me (only stuck my head in a few) can't imagine a kid who can't swim dealing with that - they may have to force the regulator in their mouth for a long swim
> 
> *Almost like they need to make them unconscious and put a full face mask regulator on each one and tow them out*


^- that semi pro- arm chair QB to you 

I saw a video on LinkedIn - haven't seen it anywhere else and it showed the kids strapped to a gurney type thing - it looked a little big to fit through some of the 20" holes they mentioned - but I don't honestly think anyone except those that did it really knows what happened - but just glad they are out and hopefully recovering.

I am glad stories like this exist - most of humankind is still fairly awesome (not "glad' the kids had to be in this situation - but "shit happens")


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## Dleg (Jul 12, 2018)

The sedation makes sense - it is easy to panic with scuba gear and panic is by far the most dangerous thing in a situation like that.


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## jeb6294 (Jul 16, 2018)

Dleg said:


> The sedation makes sense - it is easy to panic with scuba gear and panic is by far the most dangerous thing in a situation like that.


I still remember when I got my certification.  First time you actually go in the water they made you do it in the shallow end of the pool in case someone freaks out the first time the go underwater.


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## Road Guy (Jul 16, 2018)

they do and its usually just pop your head under water a few minutes..

I got certified around age 15 but the wife didn't get hers until mid 30's - she went through the pool and open water dives (FLA Springs) really good but the first time in the ocean she freaked out after a few minutes under water - went immediately up, got on the boat and said FTS (in my head I was counting the thousands of dollars I had wasted)

luckily some 20 year old Fabio looking boat "1st mate" calmed her down and took her back under on the next dive and has since then been okay &amp; now has no issues doing dives that push the boundaries of recreational diving - but for a minute I was like, damn. this was a waste of time and money!


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## jeb6294 (Jul 16, 2018)

Yeah, I was one of those people who was telling them "get out of my way, I'm going down to the deep end".


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## Dleg (Jul 16, 2018)

First time I did the pool dive, in maybe 15 feet, I freaked when we did the breath without the mask thing. 

I was fine in the ocean except on one dive where we started inside a big cave and went out into the ocean, and then down to 110 feet or so. I started feeling a little panicky at 60 feet and tried to signal to my buddy (ex GF) that I wanted to return, but she pretended she didn't understand so i sucked it up - there was really no way out at that point. When we got down to around 90 feet I started narcing (?) and was then totally relaxed.


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