# What makes an engineer change jobs?



## rwcardinal (May 4, 2021)

I'm curious if you all can help me gain some insight. I own a small civil engineering and surveying firm in Wisconsin. We've enjoyed a lot of success over the last several years. While I do believe we are the best (of course!), I am aware that part of it is tied to the high building construction market we have been experiencing, which means, everyone is looking for 3-6 year experience engineer. I'm struggling to get any, ANY, responses to job advertisements. I'm offering relocation packages, signing bonuses, great benefit packages, highly competitive salaries, great work culture and atmosphere. No bites. I'm missing something and I can't see what it is. So, I'm digging in to see what it is that I can tailor my job postings verbiage to intrigue the interest of my fellow colleagues. What has made you change jobs during strong markets? When you have had several choices of firms to go to, what makes you interested in one more than the other? Any insight from your experience and thought process would be incredibly helpful.


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## Supe (May 5, 2021)

You'll be hindered by lack of potential upward mobility within a small firm, but right now, flex time and work from home options are a big selling point. A lot of people have grown accustomed to that way of living over the past year-18 months and are in no rush to go back to a traditional 40 hour brick and mortar work environment.


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## Supe (May 5, 2021)

Also, keep in mind that many larger companies have gone to a work from home model and are now hiring out of state, so to some extent, you are competing with pay scale on a national level, not just local.


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## DLD PE (May 5, 2021)

I've been in the MEP consulting industry for 16 years. I've worked for firms as small as 10 and firms as large as 100 employees. I'm going to be blunt, so please don't take what I have to say as trying to be harsh. Just trying to help and shed some insight.

Most companies (especially the large ones), have no clue how to go about hiring. They throw an ad out there on Indeed, Monster, or pay a headhunter a fee to advertise, and they ask for a certain level of experience (in years), and a long list of "qualifications" that may have little do with an engineer's competency. Let me give you an example: Several years ago I spent 4 hours interviewing with a large firm, and the managers wanted to hire me, but they had to get the "ok" from company HQ. I did all my design work in AutoCAD, but had no experience in Revit. Both design tools are written by the same software company (AutoDesk). I had over 10 years design experience at the time, and even though (as I found out later in my experience) that it only takes a couple of months at the most to really get the hang of Revit, I was passed over because they wanted someone who knew Revit "right away". A year later the same company was still looking for someone to hire. Also, "years" of experience does not translate into competency. I've seen young engineers with a few years of experience who are much more competent than their peers who have 15+ years of experience. Keep that in mind.

If you're an engineering firm and have been in the same area for several years and not getting any job responses, you might need to start asking yourself some tough questions. What is your reputation in the area? Believe it or not, word on the street spreads much quicker than you think. I've only been in the Nashville area for 5 years, but after 2 years I already knew who (in terms of reputation) some of the "good" and "bad" engineering and architectural firms were. I'm electrical, and after listening to vendors (the lighting, fire alarm, electrical gear reps for example) and talking to people at trade shows, you start to get to know everyone. 

Also, you mentioned Wisconsin, but where? Are you in a big city where commute times are bad, and like @Supe mentioned you're competing with WFH companies on a national level? I know I've turned down lucrative offers from reputable firms because I didn't want a long commute time. Companies are definitely starting to offer more WFH opportunities to compete with other firms who do the same thing. 

As for me, what made me change jobs was:

1. Was the company reputable? This is not always the case, but I would say after doing some research, I was able to "know a guy who knew a guy" who may have been a former employee or knew the company well, and was able to base my decision at least partly on that info. I've also LEFT a company for ethical reasons.
2. Is the commute time reasonable? 
3. Does this feel like a place where I can learn and grow and enjoy working in the long term? At my current company, I'm hardly WFH at all. In fact, I've been in the office full time the last few months, although WFH 1-2 days a week is an option if I really want it. I just really enjoy the work environment here at my current employer. 

Sorry to be so long-winded, but hope this helps. Feel free to ask anything or shoot me a PM.


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## rwcardinal (May 5, 2021)

Thanks @Supe. I appreciate the thoughtful response. I've had the perspective that a small firm is actually completely open for upward mobility. You look at the firms around 100 employees and there is always a 3-4 person management team that usually started with the firm when they were small. I've been trying to pitch it as you get the opportunity to be "that person" growing with the company. However, I know that doesn't appeal to everyone and the analytical side of engineers see the potential downside more than that potential upside. I love adventure and I'm a risk taker, and that isn't true of everyone else. I do offer remote work and work from home, but I had not considered that I am now competing on a national scale, I appreciate that perspective that I hadn't considered before, thank you!


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## rwcardinal (May 5, 2021)

Thanks @DuranDuran. I run my company on honesty, and I wouldn't have come here if I didn't want someone to be honest with me. I'm trying to gain a perspective that I didn't have before so I need people to be blunt. I'm not hurt by that. I'm not perfect, my company isn't perfect, we value learning and a growing as a foundational piece of the company. I build time into my people's schedule for them to be on the clock for personal growth, reading, learning, forums, etc and that's why I'm here with this question. 

I concur about how rough it is hiring with large firms. Before I started my own, my department was growing and I needed help. I asked to hire and the process was brutal, and one reason I went it at on my own. And here we are...

I also am in complete agreeance on years of experience versus quality of production. I have on staff people I've trained from zero that are better than some engineers I know. I've found it takes 6 months for someone to get the hang of Civil 3D from scratch, and then another 6 months to be productive. You are right on with the 3 months transferring programs with initial experience of a type of Cad program. I have no problem with fewer years or more years of experience, but I'm not in a place that I have capacity to train from zero right now. I have and will again, but not right now. I just got back from vacation with my family where my wife and kids spent days on the beach without me because things came up on projects, I currently have no one to pass it off to. I currently need someone to be productive with the first month. 

I appreciate the comment on asking the tough questions. I am, and that's why I'm here. I know I roughed up some feathers when I started out on my own and we've won contracts away from my competitors where I know I am not talked well about within those walls. Obviously everything was on the up and up, I treat all of my colleagues with the same respect I want to be given. We have had projects go sideways, but have had more wins than issues and are continually recommended from client to client. Perhaps I don't have a true understanding though. I had a feedback campaign both from clients and also colleagues on my radar for the last quarter of the year for a certain growth plan I had after this hire, but looks like I need to move that up to before the hire. 

Again, thank you much for your response. I greatly appreciate the conversation!


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (May 5, 2021)

I definitely agree with what @Supe and @DuranDuran have said. I'll still share my thoughts.

Many companies think it's all about money. Salary is definitely important, but salary is more of a baseline requirement than the real draw. If you don't meet someone's salary expectations, they won't come. If you do meet their expectations that gets you to a "maybe." But I don't think salary can get you to, "yes, I definitely want to work here."

What gets you to yes is all about company culture. There are lots of different things that go into company culture. Different things have varying priorities for different people. I'll list stuff that comes to mind below:

As has been stated, work from home is a big deal right now.
Benefits package (This one can be tough to nail down because different parts of the benefits package are important to different people. Best practice is to make sure you're benefits are comparable to other companies. Or even better, find ways to exceed theirs.)
Vacation and personal time policy (work-life balance is major for some people)
Overtime expectations (again work life balance)
Management should ALWAYS be HONEST. (This is just basic respect.)
Don't micromanage your employees. (Trust them to get their work done)
Value your employees input. (Everyone wants to feel valued)
Hold poorly performing employees, and employees with negative attitudes, accountable while also being fair. (This is a much bigger deal than most people realize. One of the quickest ways to alienate good employees is to allow a shitty employee to keep being shitty.)
Make sure everyone has an opportunity to grow. (This can be tough in a small firm because there's not a lot of upward mobility. But you can support employees' growth through training, awards, raises/bonuses, increased responsibility, etc.)
Similarly reward employee for exceptional performance. (Particularly if an employee is making you a lot of money. This is usually done through bonuses.)
Random fringe benefits. (These can have a surprising impact for not a lot of money.)
Give a fixed amount of reimbursement for gym membership or fitness equipment.
Try to negotiate a discount a a few local business, or just cover the discount yourself. (10% off at a local restaurant, car repair shop, or spa can make a big impression on people. Also some major national companies have standard corporate discount programs, so you could consider that.)

Occasional employee events (e.g. company picnic). Having them during working hours, on the clock, has a much bigger impact than expecting employees to give up their time.)
You may not be able to do all of of these. But these are the things that contribute to people loving to work for you. I'm sure there's lots more stuff, but that's all I can think of at the moment.


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## rwcardinal (May 5, 2021)

@jean15paul_PE Thanks for the thoughtful response. You are right. Culture is huge. All of the things you listed are also important to me, and we don't just do some of them, we do all of them. I'm still contemplating how I communicate that in a job ad.

I'm going respond to each item, just for the fun of it. 


As has been stated, work from home is a big deal right now. We offer it, and several utilize it. The pandemic forced us to get better at it. 
Benefits package (This one can be tough to nail down because different parts of the benefits package are important to different people. Best practice is to make sure you're benefits are comparable to other companies. Or even better, find ways to exceed theirs.) You are right, can be tough, but we have a decent package, I add in my resources of connections for things individuals want but we don't have, and I offer to pay for individual items as appropriate. 
Vacation and personal time policy (work-life balance is major for some people) Important to me personally, so I make it important to the company. 
Overtime expectations (again work life balance) All overtime is optional for hourly, never expected. No salary person is ever required to work off normal business hours, nor have we. 
Management should ALWAYS be HONEST. (This is just basic respect.) See previous comments.
Don't micromanage your employees. (Trust them to get their work done) Wouldn't want it done to me. We have a saying...make your best decision, I'll back you 100%, if there is something missed or needs to be learned, then we do it together to be better next time. 
Value your employees input. (Everyone wants to feel valued) I'm having this same conversation internally. 
Hold poorly performing employees, and employees with negative attitudes, accountable while also being fair. (This is a much bigger deal than most people realize. One of the quickest ways to alienate good employees is to allow a shitty employee to keep being shitty.) I hate this part of ownership. But it's important. I recently had to let someone go, I won't go into details for privacy, but the final deciding factor was company culture and the weight and added job responsibilities it was adding to other people to make up the gap. 
Make sure everyone has an opportunity to grow. (This can be tough in a small firm because there's not a lot of upward mobility. But you can support employees' growth through training, awards, raises/bonuses, increased responsibility, etc.) We build it in weekly to our time, and I push people in the direction they want to go. In our goal setting, I tell them to be honest and if their vision of where they want to go in life isn't something I can provide, I will help them get there even if it means they leave. Our saying is that "All boats rise". They get better, we get better, the industry gets better. 
Similarly reward employee for exceptional performance. (Particularly if an employee is making you a lot of money. This is usually done through bonuses.) We do this publicly through accolades and privately through finances. 
Random fringe benefits. (These can have a surprising impact for not a lot of money.)
Give a fixed amount of reimbursement for gym membership or fitness equipment.
Try to negotiate a discount a a few local business, or just cover the discount yourself. (10% off at a local restaurant, car repair shop, or spa can make a big impression on people. Also some major national companies have standard corporate discount programs, so you could consider that.)
I currently do this on individual basis, but perhaps more systematized would be better. We do twice a year outings, with lunches in between. I've paid for an empolyee's house cleaning when I knew they were struggling for personal and family time. I have someone who loves the Cubs, he was killing it, so I bought him and his girlfriend great seats to a game with a paid day off. Similar things for others. 

Occasional employee events (e.g. company picnic). Having them during working hours, on the clock, has a much bigger impact than expecting employees to give up their time.) Same as above. My current staff is heavy into outdoors, so we did a kayaking trip on the clock. This has gotten harder with the pandemic, so we switched to some fun virtual things to do together. Hoping we get the opportunity to do outings again this summer.


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## DLD PE (May 5, 2021)

Based on what you said above, yeah I'd work for your company!

@rwcardinal , how is your relationship with other trades, vendors, AHJs, etc? For example, if I'm in electrical, lighting or electrical gear vendors come in from time to time. I've gotten to know a few over the years. They visit other firms and will either talk about them, or I'll ask the questions. At one point, I regularly played golf with one of the local codes reviewers/enforcers. These are the kind of people you should pick their brain. You can say something like, "Hey, you work with other civil engineering firms. What is our reputation in the area? We're looking for help but can't seem to get responses to our job search." They might shed some insight. Also, just keep asking people you know. You never know who might know someone who might also know someone who's looking. These forums are a good place to start too. 

This paragraph from you earlier grabbed my attention:

"I also am in complete agreeance on years of experience versus quality of production. I have on staff people I've trained from zero that are better than some engineers I know. I've found it takes 6 months for someone to get the hang of Civil 3D from scratch, and then another 6 months to be productive. You are right on with the 3 months transferring programs with initial experience of a type of Cad program. I have no problem with fewer years or more years of experience, but I'm not in a place that I have capacity to train from zero right now. I have and will again, but not right now. I just got back from vacation with my family where my wife and kids spent days on the beach without me because things came up on projects, I currently have no one to pass it off to. I currently need someone to be productive with the first month."

Would you consider promoting someone internally and having them hire a new person and train them from the ground up? You said yourself the ones you trained from zero are better than some other engineers you know. Maybe you have someone right now who can immediately train someone if you don't have time. It might be difficult in the short term, but in the long run it could take a ton off your plate if you can get someone within your company to be able to manage others. This way you knock out two birds with one stone: You hire a new person and train them the way YOU want, and also you're giving someone else hiring/management experience.


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## rwcardinal (May 5, 2021)

@Supe @DuranDuran @jean15paul_PE 

I'm going to redirect the conversation a little bit. Let's make the assumption that it's more of an issue that I'm not getting the word out in front of the right crowd. If you were not currently in a job search situation, what would peak your interest if you found out that someone was hiring with an intriguing opportunity? Word of mouth? If you saw an Ad on Facebook or other social media? Shoot, a billboard driving down the road?


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## DLD PE (May 5, 2021)

1. Word of mouth
2. Facebook
3. LinkdIn


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## Supe (May 5, 2021)

Wherever your ad placement is, address as many of the perks as possible. If it's just "competitive benefits, great work environment" I'm going to gloss right over it, because everyone makes the same claims. FWIW, whenever I job search while currently employed, the Google job search tool is the first thing I look at. I tend to ignore LinkedIn nowadays because its so flooded with clueless recruiters, but I WILL pay attention to a message from someone I've actually worked with.


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## rwcardinal (May 5, 2021)

@DuranDuran Lake Geneva Wisconsin is a BEAUTIFUL location...just saying  

I do train within and will continue to do that. I have 2 people that will be the person I'm trying to hire in the near future. And we will be ready for new roles for them. 

I think I'm building something really special, and I have a growth plan that ties together industry trends, cultural trends, and things people are doing in completely different sectors. But I need the right people first.


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## DLD PE (May 5, 2021)

Sounds like you're on a great track...just need to get the word out somehow!


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (May 5, 2021)

It sounds like you're doing a lot of good things. Here's another suggestion.

I don't know if you're familiar with the website glassdoor.com? But it's a site where employees can confidentially share info about their companies including salaries, reviews, interview experiences, etc. Glassdoor does a pretty good job of sharing that info, while trying to keep it confidential. For example, they will only show average salary data if multiple people share their salaries, that way employers can't match up salary to the employee.

Anyway, I've seen some companies encourage their employees to go on there and write reviews. That can get tricky, especially at a very small company, because you need people to feel comfortable writing honest reviews. But it's a good way to get the positive aspects of your company out there.

Also, does your company have a social media presence? You should be regularly posting stuff. It can be tricky to post the right mix of business stuff (jobs, training, conferences, professional features of employees, etc), less formal posts (fun, funny, etc), benefits/lifestyle posts (company benefits, employee activities, etc). But doing so will help to build your brand among customers AND prospective employees. If you're not comfortable with social media, maybe one of your employees is really good at it. Or you could consider hiring a social media manager (could be a part time position).


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## NikR_PE (May 5, 2021)

rwcardinal said:


> Lake Geneva Wisconsin is a BEAUTIFUL location...just saying


Yes. I will work for you on the weekends .



rwcardinal said:


> If you were not currently in a job search situation, what would peak your interest if you found out that someone was hiring with an intriguing opportunity? Word of mouth? If you saw an Ad on Facebook or other social media? Shoot, a billboard driving down the road?


I do look at LinkedIn, Google jobs, engineerjobs.com. But word of mouth trumps all.


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## pbrme (May 5, 2021)

@rwcardinal, @jean15paul_PE has a good point. You mentioned earlier about how to post some of the perks about your benefits or how to communicate them in a job ad. Having a perks section in your "why work for us" website link or social media may be a good avenue. The 3-6 year market is a hard place to find talent. Most engineers I know work into an accrued PTO schedule which grows the longer your with them, and at 6yrs it's hard to go backwards. 1-3yrs and they're usually green and in job shop mode anyway. It sounds like you may be busy enough to justify the more experienced crowd, ie higher wage for higher charge rate... same overhead and markup.


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## Supe (May 6, 2021)

pbrme said:


> @rwcardinal, @jean15paul_PE has a good point. You mentioned earlier about how to post some of the perks about your benefits or how to communicate them in a job ad. Having a perks section in your "why work for us" website link or social media may be a good avenue. The 3-6 year market is a hard place to find talent. Most engineers I know work into an accrued PTO schedule which grows the longer your with them, and at 6yrs it's hard to go backwards. 1-3yrs and they're usually green and in job shop mode anyway. It sounds like you may be busy enough to justify the more experienced crowd, ie higher wage for higher charge rate... same overhead and markup.


Carrying over PTO is huge. I capped out at 10 yrs and wouldn't consider a voluntary job change that didn't carry that over.


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## jr_inthefog (May 6, 2021)

Sometimes it’s not the firm but the clients… (condescending /abusive to contractors, overly overly picky, distrustful….)


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## rwcardinal (May 6, 2021)

@Supe @jean15paul_PE @pbrme All great points on PTO. It's something I've always done with my staff, but I've never advertised it as an incentive. 

I actually started off with the trendy...No specific PTO, take what you need to live a healthy and balanced life...but I found that there were people that leaned towards abusing it, then there were people that leaned towards not taking enough because they didn't have clear bounds to work within. So we set a standard and continually remind my staff to talk to me privately if they need some wiggle room. It's worked well from there.


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## rwcardinal (May 6, 2021)

NikR_PE said:


> Yes. I will work for you on the weekends .


If you are serious, let's talk via PM.


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## rwcardinal (May 6, 2021)

jr_inthefog said:


> Sometimes it’s not the firm but the clients… (condescending /abusive to contractors, overly overly picky, distrustful….)



Seriously. We rank our clients. The old adage 80% of your problems comes from 20% of your clients is true. We definitely target certain clients and attempt to move it about that magical line. That bad 20% make things rough for everyone.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (May 6, 2021)

pbrme said:


> @rwcardinal, @jean15paul_PE has a good point. You mentioned earlier about how to post some of the perks about your benefits or how to communicate them in a job ad. Having a perks section in your "why work for us" website link or social media may be a good avenue. The 3-6 year market is a hard place to find talent. Most engineers I know work into an accrued PTO schedule which grows the longer your with them, and at 6yrs it's hard to go backwards. 1-3yrs and they're usually green and in job shop mode anyway. It sounds like you may be busy enough to justify the more experienced crowd, ie higher wage for higher charge rate... same overhead and markup.


That something that definitely should be negotiable when changing jobs. Some people don't realize that you can negotiate on way more than salary, like PTO accrual rate or starting with a PTO bank.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (May 6, 2021)

rwcardinal said:


> @Supe @jean15paul_PE @pbrme All great points on PTO. It's something I've always done with my staff, but I've never advertised it as an incentive.
> 
> I actually started off with the trendy...No specific PTO, take what you need to live a healthy and balanced life...but I found that there were people that leaned towards abusing it, then there were people that leaned towards not taking enough because they didn't have clear bounds to work within. So we set a standard and continually remind my staff to talk to me privately if they need some wiggle room. It's worked well from there.


At a previous job we had a fixed amount of "vacation" but unlimited "lost time". Vacation = I just want to take time off. Lost time = there's a reason I can't be at work (sick, appointments, etc).
Lost time was tracked and if you took too much it would come up in your performance reviews. Management would also like to see you offset your lost time with unpaid OT (which was also tracked).

I actually don't like that system. It was way too bureaucratic and actually led to some bad practices by some bad managers (not approving lost time, negative reviews for legitimate lost time like being sick, etc). But it did prevent abuse by employees.

So ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## bwin12 (May 8, 2021)

Interesting thread, one question that I had- are you getting people in for interviews and they are not accepting? Or is the issue getting an interview set up?


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