# Decisions, decisions..



## superfrogtw (Nov 3, 2014)

Hello engineerboards community,

So it's been a while of job searching and I still haven't been able to land many interviews let alone a job. I managed to get one phone screen interview but there wasn't much of a follow-up so I figured it's a goner. I'm looking for an entry-level transportation/transit/traffic engineer position but don't have any relevant experience in the field. (Cover letter and resume: http://imgur.com/a/NgHAE)

Anyway, lately, I've been thinking of just going back to school for a Master's Degree in Transportation Engineering. Ideally, I'd want to just get a job and get some experience under my belt instead of going for the Master's. However, it just seems like it's not happening right now so I want to make the most out of my time and thought pursuing the Master's would be worthwhile. Also, if I don't get enough experience by then, the PE license will eventually require Master's degrees so there's that.

That being said, any of you that have experience or insight on this, can you shed some light please?


Does it help or hurt to get a Master's degree without any relevant/internship experience? That is, will it help or hurt my chances of landing an entry-level position?

What do you think are my best options right now? Should I just keep job searching or go for the Master's?

Should I "settle" for internships? I've been considering this as well but can barely find anything either.

Also, in my job searching approach, I was thinking of calling some of the local smaller (transportation) engineering firms around my area and seeing if they had any positions since my email inquiries haven't gotten me anywhere.

*Any and all help is greatly appreciated!!*


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## superfrogtw (Nov 3, 2014)

Hello engineerboards community,

So it's been a while of job searching and I still haven't been able to land many interviews let alone a job. I managed to get one phone screen interview but there wasn't much of a follow-up so I figured it's a goner. I'm looking for an entry-level transportation/transit/traffic engineer position but don't have any relevant experience in the field. (Cover letter and resume: http://imgur.com/a/NgHAE)

Anyway, lately, I've been thinking of just going back to school for a Master's Degree in Transportation Engineering. Ideally, I'd want to just get a job and get some experience under my belt instead of going for the Master's. However, it just seems like it's not happening right now so I want to make the most out of my time and thought pursuing the Master's would be worthwhile. Also, if I don't get enough experience by then, the PE license will eventually require Master's degrees so there's that.

That being said, any of you that have experience or insight on this, can you shed some light please?


Does it help or hurt to get a Master's degree without any relevant/internship experience? That is, will it help or hurt my chances of landing an entry-level position?

What do you think are my best options right now? Should I just keep job searching or go for the Master's?

Should I "settle" for internships? I've been considering this as well but can barely find anything either.

Also, in my job searching approach, I was thinking of calling some of the local smaller (transportation) engineering firms around my area and seeing if they had any positions since my email inquiries haven't gotten me anywhere.

*Any and all help is greatly appreciated!!*


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## knight1fox3 (Nov 3, 2014)

Our resident employment prospects adviser solomonb will most likely provide you with a response momentarily.


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## Road Guy (Nov 3, 2014)

are you willing to go to Texas?


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## superfrogtw (Nov 3, 2014)

Road Guy said:


> are you willing to go to Texas?




Southern California is personally at the top of my preferences, but yes, I'd certainly be open to going to Texas - Austin, Dallas, Houston in no such order.


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## Lumber Jim (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm not in your discipline of engineering but I recommend dropping your resume and cover letter off in person at places that you would like to work. I don't know your situation. Maybe you want to get out of town and then this approach would be difficult in another region of the country. I would start with someone in HR and leave a good impression unless you know someone in the office that could help you get introduced to your prospective boss. I don't have a Master's Degree so I am biased toward real world experience. As someone who decides who to hire, I believe a higher level of education demonstrates that you are trainable but it is my preference to bring someone on that can demonstrate that they "speak the language" without demonstrating bad habits. The Master's degree would be a bonus credential if you have some work experience but it also gives the impression that you will be expecting a Master's degree level of pay right away or shortly after you are hired. you better show you are worth it. Without work experience, you need to know someone or be a superstar for leaving first impressions.

I think you should get employed somewhere and get your hands dirty while looking for the position that you want to build your career on. The term "internship" has always confused me. We pay ours a reasonable wage but also expect them to catch on in a "trial by fire" fashion and are temps unless they show they "get it". However, I would consider a related position to your field an internship as well. It doesn't have to be a formal "Internship" to be relevant to the career position you are looking for...

My 2 cents. Hope it helps. Take advice from a stranger for what it's worth. I think you are on the right path and will find what you are looking for.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Nov 4, 2014)

You also posted this in the Civil forum. I would recommend posting in one location for consolidated responses...plus it would prevent you from being banned. Just a friendly notice.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Nov 4, 2014)

I've completed two Master's degrees. I started my first after having two years of experience, with two summer internships on top of that. I highly recommend getting some experience before starting a Master's program. During my MSME I took classes with students who had no real world experience. For the most part, they never got as much out of the class because it was an academic exercise for them. Engineers who were working often brought real world problems (from their jobs) to the class which made it much more engaging, and much more practical obviously. Also, unless you are absolutely sure what track you wish to pursue, you may end up taking general classes just to get the degree. I also found many students who simply took classes because it was available, or because the Prof was supposed to be an easy grader. This really provides no benefit.

In terms of hiring it's a bit of a dual sword. A Master's degree MAY give you an edge over another candidate who is also a fresh grad with no experience. However, it probably won't count as much compared to someone with five years experience in that field. You also need to consider that HR may feel that you would want an entry level salary that is compliant with an MS degree. This is impractical in your case since you have no experience.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'settle' for internships. My first job out of college was for the company I interned with twice. I stayed with that company for almost 10 years. If it's a paid internship, you should definitely be willing to do it since you're not employed FT elsewhere. At least this way you gain experience in your field and you open yourself up to potential employment if you impress your employer.

Also, you should definitely keep applying for jobs. There are numerous career websites available now to help with your job search so you should utilize those fully.


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## Road Guy (Nov 4, 2014)

the big transportation firms in texas cant seem to find people. may be worth hitting up all of there career websites, especially Houston. may not be a desirable location, but they have a ton of work (HNTB, Atkins, URS, AECOM, etc)

your cover letter looks good, I would tone down the intro about solving all of LA's traffic problems. but overall one of the better ones I have seen..


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## roadwreck (Nov 4, 2014)

ramnares said:


> You also posted this in the Civil forum. I would recommend posting in one location for consolidated responses...plus it would prevent you from being banned. Just a friendly notice.


superfrog struggles when it comes to making *decisions*, even when it's a small one like where to post a question.


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## superfrogtw (Nov 4, 2014)

Lumber Jim said:


> I'm not in your discipline of engineering but I recommend dropping your resume and cover letter off in person at places that you would like to work. I don't know your situation. Maybe you want to get out of town and then this approach would be difficult in another region of the country. I would start with someone in HR and leave a good impression unless you know someone in the office that could help you get introduced to your prospective boss. I don't have a Master's Degree so I am biased toward real world experience. As someone who decides who to hire, I believe a higher level of education demonstrates that you are trainable but it is my preference to bring someone on that can demonstrate that they "speak the language" without demonstrating bad habits. The Master's degree would be a bonus credential if you have some work experience but it also gives the impression that you will be expecting a Master's degree level of pay right away or shortly after you are hired. you better show you are worth it. Without work experience, you need to know someone or be a superstar for leaving first impressions.
> 
> I think you should get employed somewhere and get your hands dirty while looking for the position that you want to build your career on. The term "internship" has always confused me. We pay ours a reasonable wage but also expect them to catch on in a "trial by fire" fashion and are temps unless they show they "get it". However, I would consider a related position to your field an internship as well. It doesn't have to be a formal "Internship" to be relevant to the career position you are looking for...
> 
> My 2 cents. Hope it helps. Take advice from a stranger for what it's worth. I think you are on the right path and will find what you are looking for.




Thank you for your advice and insight on connecting with companies/firms as well as the whole Master's degree decision. 

Concerning walk-ins, I've read/heard that dropping by in person may be a little awkward and invasive considering the firm might be busy with project work and other stuff. Therefore, it sounds like it would be wiser to call them and ask for any internship or entry-level positions instead. Any thoughts on this? Also, with that, how does this sound? 

_"Hello, my name is ----. I'm a recent civil engineering graduate and I emailed the HR department a couple of weeks ago inquiring about any positions you might have. I was wondering if you are able to help me with this. Basically, I'm asking to see if you currently have any internship or entry-level positions available. I'm very flexible in what I'm willing to do. Can you direct me to someone I can talk to about this or the person in charge of hiring decisions? Thank you."_


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## superfrogtw (Nov 4, 2014)

ramnares said:


> I've completed two Master's degrees. I started my first after having two years of experience, with two summer internships on top of that. I highly recommend getting some experience before starting a Master's program. During my MSME I took classes with students who had no real world experience. For the most part, they never got as much out of the class because it was an academic exercise for them. Engineers who were working often brought real world problems (from their jobs) to the class which made it much more engaging, and much more practical obviously. Also, unless you are absolutely sure what track you wish to pursue, you may end up taking general classes just to get the degree. I also found many students who simply took classes because it was available, or because the Prof was supposed to be an easy grader. This really provides no benefit.
> 
> In terms of hiring it's a bit of a dual sword. A Master's degree MAY give you an edge over another candidate who is also a fresh grad with no experience. However, it probably won't count as much compared to someone with five years experience in that field. You also need to consider that HR may feel that you would want an entry level salary that is compliant with an MS degree. This is impractical in your case since you have no experience.
> 
> ...




Yeah, I am totally on board with getting work experience first.. but unfortunately, that's it - I just can't seem to get anything.. which leads me to my current dilemma of deciding whether or not to just take on the Master's to save/make the best use of time or keep job searching and hoping I can break through. Also, I can see what you mean in terms of the academic exercise of graduate coursework for pure students with no experience.


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## superfrogtw (Nov 4, 2014)

ramnares said:


> I've completed two Master's degrees. I started my first after having two years of experience, with two summer internships on top of that. I highly recommend getting some experience before starting a Master's program. During my MSME I took classes with students who had no real world experience. For the most part, they never got as much out of the class because it was an academic exercise for them. Engineers who were working often brought real world problems (from their jobs) to the class which made it much more engaging, and much more practical obviously. Also, unless you are absolutely sure what track you wish to pursue, you may end up taking general classes just to get the degree. I also found many students who simply took classes because it was available, or because the Prof was supposed to be an easy grader. This really provides no benefit.
> 
> In terms of hiring it's a bit of a dual sword. A Master's degree MAY give you an edge over another candidate who is also a fresh grad with no experience. However, it probably won't count as much compared to someone with five years experience in that field. You also need to consider that HR may feel that you would want an entry level salary that is compliant with an MS degree. This is impractical in your case since you have no experience.
> 
> ...




Oh, I guess my idea of internships was that it's a lower-level position compared to an entry-level one with $15/hour for intern and ~$25-30/hour for entry-level. I'd be open to just starting with an internship to get my foot in the door so to speak and to get real relevant experience while I'm at it. However, what I meant by settling was that considering I have a four-year degree already, shouldn't I technically be entry-level ready instead of going for these "lower-level" positions? Then again, many so-called "entry-level" positions I'm seeing require or at the very least prefer 1-2 years minimum experience with internship sufficing that requirement. Also, pay/money while important isn't my main concern but I don't want to be giving free labor considering my educational background. Ahhhhh.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Nov 4, 2014)

While I understand the resistance against making $15/hr with a 4 year degree, it simply makes more sense to be out there working and getting experience, even as an intern, as opposed to simply sitting at home. You can always continue applying to jobs you're interested in while you're interning. As an intern your coworkers may even be able to get you in the door (think networking). I just find it baffling that you have zero experience, including no internships, yet you prefer to stay at home instead of being a lowly intern.


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## superfrogtw (Nov 4, 2014)

ramnares said:


> While I understand the resistance against making $15/hr with a 4 year degree, it simply makes more sense to be out there working and getting experience, even as an intern, as opposed to simply sitting at home. You can always continue applying to jobs you're interested in while you're interning. As an intern your coworkers may even be able to get you in the door (think networking). I just find it baffling that you have zero experience, including no internships, yet you prefer to stay at home instead of being a lowly intern.




Hah, yeah, thanks for the good ol' slap in the face wake up call.

I have been looking for internships as well as entry-level positions and I haven't been able to get either, which I guess is why I'm just getting impatient and frustrated with the whole fiasco. Also, for internships, they generally post that they're looking for people with later graduation dates so I'm not sure if I'm even eligible for them - though I still do apply, heh.

I'll try the more personal phone/visit approach this coming week for local (smaller) firms that interest me. Also, with that, how does this sound? 

_"Hello, my name is ----. I'm a recent civil engineering graduate and I emailed the HR department a couple of weeks ago inquiring about any positions you might have. I was wondering if you are able to help me with this. Basically, I'm asking to see if you currently have any internship or entry-level positions available. I'm very flexible in what I'm willing to do. Can you direct me to someone I can talk to about this or the person in charge of hiring decisions? Thank you."_

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Keep 'em comin'!


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## Lumber Jim (Nov 4, 2014)

superfrogtw said:


> Lumber Jim said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not in your discipline of engineering but I recommend dropping your resume and cover letter off in person at places that you would like to work. I don't know your situation. Maybe you want to get out of town and then this approach would be difficult in another region of the country. I would start with someone in HR and leave a good impression unless you know someone in the office that could help you get introduced to your prospective boss. I don't have a Master's Degree so I am biased toward real world experience. As someone who decides who to hire, I believe a higher level of education demonstrates that you are trainable but it is my preference to bring someone on that can demonstrate that they "speak the language" without demonstrating bad habits. The Master's degree would be a bonus credential if you have some work experience but it also gives the impression that you will be expecting a Master's degree level of pay right away or shortly after you are hired. you better show you are worth it. Without work experience, you need to know someone or be a superstar for leaving first impressions.
> ...


I'm not saying demand a sit down when you walk in and I'd be judging you as to how awkward you are when you hand me your resume. Shake someones hand, smile, hand over the paper work and leave... at least then the project manager/engineering manager can ask the HR director how you presented yourself... you might even get a short chat.

It's HR's job to handle walk-ins.


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## ptatohed (Nov 4, 2014)

superfrogtw said:


> Hello engineerboards community,
> 
> So it's been a while of job searching and I still haven't been able to land many interviews let alone a job. I managed to get one phone screen interview but there wasn't much of a follow-up so I figured it's a goner. I'm looking for an entry-level transportation/transit/traffic engineer position but don't have any relevant experience in the field. (Cover letter and resume: http://imgur.com/a/NgHAE)
> 
> ...




Real quick:

Experience always trumps education

No, you will not need a Masters for your PE

Where are you located/looking for work?

If you can get by financially, it isn't a bad idea to get your foot in the door by taking a lower paying position and then proving yourself

I like the idea of calling or going in person to apply.


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## superfrogtw (Nov 5, 2014)

ptatohed said:


> superfrogtw said:
> 
> 
> > Hello engineerboards community,
> ...




Yeah, I figured/knew experience was generally better before but was considering education as an alternative and an in-the-meantime plan. As for the PE requirements, I read somewhere as well as heard from others that by 2020, the PE education requirement will be bumped up to a Master's degree. (Correct me if I'm wrong on this; I'll also double-check the Internet.)

I'm currently located in Los Angeles (San Gabriel Valley) and would like to stay here/nearby in LA county, Orange county, or San Diego county. At the same time, I'm open to Norcal (SF/Bay area), Seattle, Texas (Austin, Dallas, Houston), and Chicago since I have a few friends/family/acquaintances/connections spread around.

And yeah, I don't have too big of a financial burden since I live at home, but that's the thing.. I can't even get a lower/intern position with my current method and efforts. I'm willing to pretty much take anything I can get, but the thing is I'm not getting anything.

Lastly, I will be calling a few places towards the end of the week asking them if they could use a hand. Does it sound like a better idea to call toward the end of the week (like on a Thursday or Friday)? Also, since I'm unfamiliar with a lot of things in the engineering world, what would be the best time to reach them (early in the morning, right after lunch, late in the afternoon before they get off from work ~4:30pm) - when? And is my introduction satisfactory?

_"Hello, my name is ----. I'm a recent civil engineering graduate and I emailed the HR department a couple of weeks ago inquiring about any positions you might have. I was wondering if you are able to help me with this. Basically, I'm asking to see if you currently have any internship or entry-level positions available. I'm very flexible in what I'm willing to do. Can you direct me to someone I can talk to about this or the person in charge of hiring decisions? Thank you."_

I'm really glad the engineers on this forum are so helpful, insightful, and encouraging so far. Please continue to send feedback my way, critique my resume &amp; cover letter, and fill in any blanks that seem to be missing. Thanks so much!!


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## ptatohed (Nov 5, 2014)

superfrogtw said:


> ptatohed said:
> 
> 
> > superfrogtw said:
> ...


sftw,

The Masters requirement was a proposal by NCEES to add to their model law which they eventually dropped. Even if it did go in to the NCEES model law, it would still have to be adopted by each individual state (I doubt CA would adopt it). Did you see this recent thread?

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=24150

Also, you should consider reading the bi-monthly NCEES Licensure Exchange. You would have seen the story there:

http://ncees.org/about-ncees/ncees-licensure-exchange/

You didn't mention Riverside. Are you able/willing to commute to Riverside? Riverside County has a gazillion engineering positions open. Heck, I am even tempted!

http://www.rc-hr.com/Careers/JobDescriptions.aspx

I don't think their is a significant difference in the time you choose to call. But, why not make it earlier in the week in case they invite you in that week to meet? Call early in the day in case someone needs to call you back.

Your intro is okay but emphasize that you are calling to help them, not them help you. 'Do you have entry/intern level work that I can help you with?'

Do you know ACAD? That was my 'easy in' to the engineering world. Start with simple monkey-see-monkey-do redline drafting and before you know it, you'll be putting together a set of plans all by yourself from survey points to mylar.

Good luck.


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## willsee (Nov 5, 2014)

Call 10am Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday is the best time. You don't want to call Monday because people are recovering from the weekend, you don't want to call Friday because people are getting ready for the weekend.

How are you applying for jobs now? Just shotgunning resumes off that are probably getting lost in the HR software?

Are you involved in your community at all? Get involved with volunteering.

Have you reached out to colleagues or alumni at companies that you might want to work at? Invite people for a coffee meeting and talk with them.

I agree with cold calling and attempting to go door to door. Worst that can happen is they say no and then you are right where you started but at least you tried.

www.iwillteachyoutoberich.com has good advice on finding your dream job and applying, networking, etc. There is lots of FREE advice on his site that is useful and that I used to find jobs and get pay raises.


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## superfrogtw (Nov 5, 2014)

ptatohed said:


> sSucks!,
> 
> The Masters requirement was a proposal by NCEES to add to their model law which they eventually dropped. Even if it did go in to the NCEES model law, it would still have to be adopted by each individual state (I doubt CA would adopt it). Did you see this recent thread?
> 
> ...


Well, huh, I was totally unaware of the call to change the Master's requirement. Thanks for the heads up. I guess I will postpone my Master's degree plans indefinitely.

Thanks for the heads up to Riverside. I don't have many friends or people that I know around there, but I'll still check it out.

And when I said "I was wondering if you are able to help me with this," I meant if the person I was talking to would be able to address the question I raised but I guess it's a little fuzzy so I'll scrap that out. Also, the reason for calling earlier makes sense.

Thanks.


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## superfrogtw (Nov 5, 2014)

willsee said:


> Call 10am Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday is the best time. You don't want to call Monday because people are recovering from the weekend, you don't want to call Friday because people are getting ready for the weekend.
> 
> How are you applying for jobs now? Just shotgunning resumes off that are probably getting lost in the HR soSucks!are?
> 
> ...


I will look into calling around those times as well as getting myself involved with local communities and alumni.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Nov 5, 2014)

Just one more thing. If you are a member of ASME, ASCE etc. or any Engineering honor societies (Tau Beta Pi etc.) now is the time you want to attend every meeting and have some resumes with you. Use the meetings to network and get yourself in the door.


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## NJmike PE (Nov 5, 2014)

Ram, do you play cricket?


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## Ramnares P.E. (Nov 5, 2014)

No spamming multiple threads Mike, you know that.


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## treborTAMU (Nov 15, 2014)

Fly to Houston and hold up a sign on the i45 feeder that says, "out of work engineer, need job"


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