# Denied entry for the Exam?



## Brian (May 22, 2007)

A couple of questions.....

1. Have you, or someone you know, been denied a seat for the exam? If you are a State or Gov't employee, please state so...

2. Would you also say that you had to "creatively" write your case work? I am not talking embelishing... In other words, did you think that you had to "sell yourself to the State Board" or hope that they would interpret what you wrote as gospel and send you and invitation to the party.

3. If you are a State Employee, where do you work, Environmental, DOT, Conservation...etc...

I applied and sat for the exam in April. My coworker has since been denied THREE times, the third calling for an appeal hearing to determine his case. I have a 4 year CE degree, 5 years of work experience. He has a 4 year Env Eng and MS in Env Eng degree, plus 8 years of work experience. We both work for State Environmental Protection.

Brian


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## Capt Worley PE (May 22, 2007)

I think it probably has more to do with the type of experience he's had.


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## MA_PE (May 22, 2007)

Brian said:


> A couple of questions.....
> 1. Have you, or someone you know, been denied a seat for the exam? If you are a State or Gov't employee, please state so...
> 
> 2. Would you also say that you had to "creatively" write your case work? I am not talking embelishing... In other words, did you think that you had to "sell yourself to the State Board" or hope that they would interpret what you wrote as gospel and send you and invitation to the party.
> ...


Did the rejection include a critique or reason for the rejection or did they just flatout say "No" without further explanation?


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## kevo_55 (May 22, 2007)

Captian might have hit the nail on the head.

I have heard of people having to re-submit their work experience because they didn’t give enough specific information though. Of course, they just had to re-submit only. (They were eventually given their notice)


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## Road Guy (May 22, 2007)

In Georgia they dont want to see the words "Construction" or anything similar, it always needs to be design, design, design.

I have known quite a few people who got rejected the 1st try (myself included) technically I got rejected because I was 2 months short on time (not by calendar, but they just decided to knock off a few month for the hell of it I suppose)

I did do a greater write up the second time I had to submit the paperwork, probably went on the overkill side. tell your friend that normally the local NSPE chapter will assist in reviewing the write up (they do in GA)


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## RIP - VTEnviro (May 22, 2007)

> We both work for State Environmental Protection.


I'd say it depends on what the two of you do at the DEP. Is this guy's role mainly as a plan reviewer or site inspector? Those are 2 large roles that the DEP plays that isn't really related to design experience.

Or is he designing remediation, mitigation, stormwater, erosion control plans, landfills, developing policy, etc.?

Comparing what the two of you do might shed some light on things.

Also, it can't hurt to really bone up on your experience listing. Use all those key action words people love. And talk about the design and judgment calls you made in the design. I spent hours tuning mine up.

Instead of saying, "laid out sewer pipe", say something like "Prepared plan and profile for 1000 LF of new sanitary sewer expansion. Assessed impacts on existing collection system and treatment facility."

They're both true, one just sounds much better.


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## frazil (May 22, 2007)

did this guy get a bad recommendation from one of his references?


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## Brian (May 22, 2007)

VTEnviro said:


> I'd say it depends on what the two of you do at the DEP. Is this guy's role mainly as a plan reviewer or site inspector? Those are 2 large roles that the DEP plays that isn't really related to design experience.
> Or is he designing remediation, mitigation, stormwater, erosion control plans, landfills, developing policy, etc.?
> 
> Comparing what the two of you do might shed some light on things.
> ...


We both worked in Wastewater... WQ modeling, NPDES, State issued facility permits, CAFOs, Stormwater...etc... I work in a different department now.

Basically, I went the route of creative writing, as above. I avoided, like the plague, general statements about what I did. I did not mention that I did design, but used "performed a timely and detailed technical review of..." It seemed to work for me.

We basically did the same thing for 5 years. I did perform low-interest loan administration, but I was the technical liason for the entire region (1/6 of the state). I have not personally reviewed his application, but gave him a copy of mine, for the format, once I was accepted. My PennVEST experience might have done the trick for me.

Brian


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## benbo (May 23, 2007)

In our state the PE is a stated requirement for certain lpromotional levels in certain jobs. Because it is a requirement for certain classificatons, I think the board assumes that if you are working for the state under a PE that you do the correct work. For that reason I think they may actually go easier on state employees in my state. It doesn't hurt that the president of the board was a former DOT employee. I guess it's not the same story everywhere.


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## Hill William (May 23, 2007)

I work for the DOT. At the time that I applied, I used the generic job description from our position postings. I'm talking cut and paste. No specifics at all. My boss (PE) signed it. No problem at all. That's what all my buddies did and they were fine too. By the way, I was in construction the whole time.


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## Fudgey (May 23, 2007)

they let me take the exam for what its worth. I work for consulting but I don't have tons of design time. some of it was inspections or drafting and the let the Fudgeman take it anyway. I tried to present the experience as best as I could.


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## JohnNevets (May 23, 2007)

I got rejected the first time based on experience as well. I did take the form a bit lightly since they only had enough room for about 2 sentences to describe what you did, so I figured they weren't that concerned with it. I was wrong. Also in the state statue it states that a variety of things count as valid experience, so I naively thought the board would think they did, once again I was wrong, they want well defined "classical" engineering practice (sitting doing math all day). When I got rejected they resent a copy of the statue, and while reading it they do give an opportunity to challenge the ruling at a hearing. I took them up on it, and went before the whole board, unfortunately that made me miss the test period I had been studying for. The good news was they allowed me to sit for the next exam period, with the understanding that I would resubmit my experience before they would grant me licensure. I did, and they granted me the license with out having to meet as a board again.

I must say having to defend your experience in front of the state board is a bit humbling, but in the end it made me feel that I truly did have enough experience, and that I better buckle down for the test to prove it. Oh, and I work for a manufacturing company as an ME/SE.

Good Luck to your coworker,

John


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## ALBin517 (May 24, 2007)

JohnNevets said:


> I got rejected the first time based on experience as well.


I just took the test in April as a first-timer but Michigan has not evaluated my work experience at all. I believe the test application requires the applicant to swear that they have appropriate experience but work records and professional references are not evaluated until application for licensure.

I have never heard of anybody in Michigan getting denied to sit the exam.


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## ALBin517 (May 24, 2007)

Road Guy said:


> In Georgia they dont want to see the words "Construction" or anything similar, it always needs to be design, design, design.
> I have known quite a few people who got rejected the 1st try (myself included) technically I got rejected because I was 2 months short on time (not by calendar, but they just decided to knock off a few month for the hell of it I suppose)
> 
> I did do a greater write up the second time I had to submit the paperwork, probably went on the overkill side. tell your friend that normally the local NSPE chapter will assist in reviewing the write up (they do in GA)


A friend of mine in Florida was rejected for being a few weeks short on time.

After graduating, he had continued to work his old restaurant job for a couple months. He wanted to relax (close the bar every night) before getting into the real work force. Years later when he applied to sit the exam, he was short on experience by less than a month. In the end, he had to wait six months for his PE license because of those last few weeks of boozing.

I know, many of the miscreants on this board probably think his priorities were flawless.


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## Guest (May 24, 2007)

I work for a state environmental regulatory agency. Most of my experience was noted with that agency in my PE application.

My application was accepted to sit for the exam the first time I applied. Much like yourself, I spent A LOTof time making sure I truthfully represented the bulk sum of the work I performed but presented it from an 'engineering' perspective. Moreover, I added specific reviews and comment letters to my application package that demonstrated typical situations that arise in my positions that required 'engineering judgement'.

A lot of good advice has been provided in this thread. I think if your friend follows-up with an appeal and follows some of the recommendations, it should be fine.

Best of luck to your friend.

JR


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## grover (May 25, 2007)

JohnNevets said:


> they want well defined "classical" engineering practice (sitting doing math all day).


Does Excel math count as classical engineering practice? Shoot, in ten years of wearing "electrical engineer" as a job title, I don't think I've used anything more advanced than high school algebra. With all the equations long since derived and dumbed down, and everything more advanced handled by computers, there just isn't much need for much math.
I gave a generic description of design of blah blah and Virginia accepted it, when my work experience was probably a lot closer to the job description a draftsman then an engineer. BUT, that's my signature on the box, and that's the only real difference between a draftsman and an engineer these days, isn't it?


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## Art (May 25, 2007)

something doesn't jive...

BS (accredited school)

MS (accredited school)

passed the FE and is registered as an EIT

8 years of experience as an enviornmental engineer for the state, working under PE's

and he doesn't qualify to sit for the CE/Water or Enviornmental Engineer exam?!

then who the heck would?!


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## Brian (May 29, 2007)

The whole thing is weird. On one side, there are several others in the office, who used the same generic format for creating the record of work experience, and got accepted. BUT, if you look at PA's State Regs for licensure, the don't specifically state design, just working under the supervision of a PE. California's is written basically the same way (in addition to the seismic criteria, too).

The other odd thing, is the guy who approved my app for the exam, reviewed his, and denied it.

The latest letter (3rd denial) is also a really bad mail merge, in that they mention that his application to the FE exam cannot be accepted at this time. WTF? I'll have to get him to post some verbage from it. It is very poorly written letter.

The other conspiracy it that one of the consultants on the board had a little tiff with the DEP at one time, and therefore "has a bone to pick." I can't beleive it, but it was thrown out there in conversation.

Brian


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## bcse (May 29, 2007)

Road Guy said:


> In Georgia they dont want to see the words "Construction" or anything similar, it always needs to be design, design, design.
> I have known quite a few people who got rejected the 1st try (myself included) technically I got rejected because I was 2 months short on time (not by calendar, but they just decided to knock off a few month for the hell of it I suppose)
> 
> I did do a greater write up the second time I had to submit the paperwork, probably went on the overkill side. tell your friend that normally the local NSPE chapter will assist in reviewing the write up (they do in GA)


I'm in Georgia too, and I also had a few months knocked off of my experience when I applied. I called and chatted with an "application specialist" to find out what kid of math they were doing. She told me, well we don't assume that you really start off on day one doing engineering work and she also said had I done co-op or maybe if my dad and grand dad had an engineering firm they would have counted my experience from day 1. Now, the co-op part I get, the family firm thing, not so much. She has obviously never worked in the 100% billable consulting world either because I distinctly remember doing calcs my first day. Sorry I can't be more helpful with this specific request, just wanted to throw in another complaint about the app reviewers. Can the person possibly call and chat with a board member and see if they can provide guidance?


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## Dleg (May 29, 2007)

Brian said:


> The other conspiracy it that one of the consultants on the board had a little tiff with the DEP at one time, and therefore "has a bone to pick." I can't beleive it, but it was thrown out there in conversation.


As a fellow environmental regulator who was also once denied to sit for the exam, that was my first guess. But I kept quiet since I assumed PA is more civilized than, um, certain other parts of the country. But maybe not... ???


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## Slugger926 (May 30, 2007)

I was coached by my lead reference on how to submit my work history. I have since coached several on work history, and even rejected the last one several times before he resubmitted it. He was being way too vague in his history.

He sat the first time around and passed.

You may need to go over his work history and help him resubmit it. It may be too late though cause once he was rejected, he will be under the microscope due the everything in his file.


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## Brian (May 31, 2007)

Slugger926 said:


> I was coached by my lead reference on how to submit my work history. I have since coached several on work history, and even rejected the last one several times before he resubmitted it. He was being way too vague in his history.
> He sat the first time around and passed.
> 
> You may need to go over his work history and help him resubmit it. It may be too late though cause once he was rejected, he will be under the microscope due the everything in his file.


You should at least charge lunch, and possibly several cups of coffee for those services!

I was talking to my boss this afternoon. Appartently the Board's Legal Counsel will sign off on the fact (in writing) that his resubmittal won't be prejudiced by previous submittals (rants/emails/letters/telephone calls...etc). So hopefully, if all advice is taken and acted upon, he'll get in.


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