# Signing the Final Certification



## bezzy (Sep 2, 2010)

Here is the summary:

I was hired by a company as a field engineer and worked on a short term project that took two months. The company let me go after their contract finished for this job. I was in probation for 90 days so I had no benefits and no unemployment paid for me.

The employer called me about a month after they laid me off to come in and sign and seal the final certification report for the job that done.

Please note that I was a hired as a field engineer and they never told me that I was the one that must sign and seal (nothing mentioned in the offer letter).

I told them since I am not an employee of the company I am not obligated to sign and stamp anything for your company.

Now after about a month, I am getting this email that my ex-boss saying the final certification is ready on my desk. You don't need to stamp it! you just need to come in and sign it!

Am I obligated to sign the final certification since I am not the employee of the company? Please let me know what your thoughts are.

Thanks.


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## snickerd3 (Sep 2, 2010)

Again, you are no longer an employee so you have no obligation to them. SOL on their part for not getting this done before canning you.

i wouldn't. There must have been changes that it took this long to get a final certification. You weren't around for those changes so why should you sign anything.


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## picusld (Sep 2, 2010)

First thought is that if you are not required to seal why would you be required to sign it.

Is there any potential liability associated with the signature? If so, then don't sign or seal.


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 2, 2010)

If they are willing to compensate you for the time it will take to review all of the work done since you left and inspect the site before signing, then I would do it. If they are unwilling to let you review the work before attaching your signature to the final certification, then I would tell them to take a long walk off a short pier.


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## navyasw02 (Sep 2, 2010)

Dont sign or seal it at all, tell them to go pack sand. For one thing, it sets you up to be the scapegoat if anything goes wrong. Hopefully it wont, but you never know. Second, they didnt value you enough to keep you employed, but they value you now because they need something from you. Tell them if they need your signature, you need your old job back with a raise and a promotion.

If you dont sign it, what are they going to do? Re-fire you? Put you on double secret probation?


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## Paul S (Sep 2, 2010)

You are not obligated to sign it. Don't do it!


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## picusld (Sep 2, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> Dont sign or seal it at all, tell them to go pack sand. For one thing, it sets you up to be the scapegoat if anything goes wrong. Hopefully it wont, but you never know. Second, they didnt value you enough to keep you employed, but they value you now because they need something from you. Tell them if they need your signature, you need your old job back with a raise and a promotion.
> If you dont sign it, what are they going to do? Re-fire you? Put you on double secret probation?


and back pay


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## navyasw02 (Sep 2, 2010)

Actually, rereading your original post again it sounds like you were a contractor. Was the job completely done when you were let go (ie work complete therefore contract is over) or did they just end your contract early? Either way, I still would tell them to pack sand, especially since they never told you before that your signature/seal was required. I'd tell them that your signature/seal will cost them $XXXX as part of a new, separate contract to review the final work package.


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## ALBin517 (Sep 2, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> Actually, rereading your original post again it sounds like you were a contractor. Was the job completely done when you were let go (ie work complete therefore contract is over) or did they just end your contract early? Either way, I still would tell them to pack sand, especially since they never told you before that your signature/seal was required. I'd tell them that your signature/seal will cost them $XXXX as part of a new, separate contract to review the final work package.



Yeah, reviewing / signing / sealing is an extra ... a very expensive extra. :eyebrows:


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## navyasw02 (Sep 2, 2010)

ALBin517 said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, rereading your original post again it sounds like you were a contractor. Was the job completely done when you were let go (ie work complete therefore contract is over) or did they just end your contract early? Either way, I still would tell them to pack sand, especially since they never told you before that your signature/seal was required. I'd tell them that your signature/seal will cost them $XXXX as part of a new, separate contract to review the final work package.
> ...


There's nothing wrong with "whoring" out your services as long as you do the review properly. The difference between a slut and a whore is that a whore is smart enough to charge for what a slut gives away for free.


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## bezzy (Sep 2, 2010)

Thank you guys for your inputs and thoughts. It was really helpful.

This is the problem with small firms, they tend to be very abusive, or atleast this one was from the start.

I was getting my paychecks with delays; laid me off even though he had promised me to use me on other projects; and reaching out to me and bothering me with these unprofessional and unethical requests!

I told the ex-boss that I have no obligations to his company since I am no longer an employee of the company, and if he wants me to sign anything that is gonna cost him and he needs to compensate me with the time it will take to review and sign.

That didn't go down very well!

The only concern I have now is that at the end of the year he refuses to send me the W2 form.

I don't know what I should do if he doesn't send me the W2?!


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 2, 2010)

First things first...you should report him to your state board of engineering licensure. What he is doing is illegal, and most boards have the power to fine both companies and individuals, whether they are engineers or not.

Second, I'm pretty sure that it is against the law to not issue a W2, although I'm not sure who you would report him to (the IRS maybe?) If this guy wants to play games, I think you should play along.


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## navyasw02 (Sep 2, 2010)

bezzy said:


> Thank you guys for your inputs and thoughts. It was really helpful.
> This is the problem with small firms, they tend to be very abusive, or atleast this one was from the start.
> 
> I was getting my paychecks with delays; laid me off even though he had promised me to use me on other projects; and reaching out to me and bothering me with these unprofessional and unethical requests!
> ...


Dont worry about your W2, it's illegal for him not to send it. He'll get in more trouble than you will by not sending it. Is anybody else at the company licensed?

Oh yea, Navy is going to beat the Terps this weekend.


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## IlPadrino (Sep 3, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> First things first...you should report him to your state board of engineering licensure. What he is doing is illegal, and most boards have the power to fine both companies and individuals, whether they are engineers or not.


I reread this topic twice... I'm missing the "what he is doing is illegal" part.


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## Santiagj (Sep 3, 2010)

No way. I will be at M&amp;T bank stadium with my wife (both Terp alumni) to witness the distruction.

The illegal part is withholding a W2 form. I believe that should be reported to the IRS. Plus I think that it could be reported to the state board since what he is doing is unethical. I mean its pretty much blackmail.


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## wilheldp_PE (Sep 3, 2010)

IlPadrino said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > First things first...you should report him to your state board of engineering licensure. What he is doing is illegal, and most boards have the power to fine both companies and individuals, whether they are engineers or not.
> ...


In Kentucky, at least, what the boss is trying to force bezzy to do is called job shopping, and it is illegal. It includes an engineer not being involved with all aspects of a project, but swooping in at the last second to sign and/or seal the documentation. It's not "the cops are going to knock down your door" illegal, but it is against a Kentucky Revised Statute which carries penalties such as steep fines and short stays in state prison.


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## MA_PE (Sep 3, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> > wilheldp_PE said:
> ...


will: I don't get that from bezzy's post. To me it seems like they are asking him to sign off on work he did while he was there but more than 2 months after the work was done. If a signature is required then they should have had Bezzy sign it before he left, now they're SOL.

Also, "It includes an engineer not being involved with all aspects of a project, but swooping in at the last second to sign and/or seal the documentation." I don't think "sign" alone means anything. I suspect it needs to be "seal and sign".

Interestingly I found this in the Kentucky Regulations:

201 KAR 18:142. Code of professional practice and conduct

(1) A professional engineer may review and certify the work product of another professional engineer if:

(a) The review and certification are made at the request of the other professional engineer;

(B) He or she does not remove or obliterate the identity of the other professional engineer;

© He or she performs and retains in his or her possession for not less than five (5) years all calculations and documents necessary to perform an adequate review; and

(d) He or she confirms that the other professional engineer was licensed when the work was created.

so based on my interpretation of part d. If the employer find another PE and they confirm that bezzy was registered at the time he did his work, then the second PE can "review and certify" it no problem.


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## IlPadrino (Sep 3, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> In Kentucky, at least, what the boss is trying to force bezzy to do is called job shopping, and it is illegal. It includes an engineer not being involved with all aspects of a project, but swooping in at the last second to sign and/or seal the documentation. It's not "the cops are going to knock down your door" illegal, but it is against a Kentucky Revised Statute which carries penalties such as steep fines and short stays in state prison.


I don't agree with that conclusion at all... here's what we've been told so far:

1. Bezzy was hired by a company as a field engineer and worked on a short term project that took two months.

2. The company let Bezzy go after their contract finished for this job.

3. The company asked Bezzy to sign and seal the final certification report for the job that was done.

4. The ex-boss told Bezzy the final certification is ready for signature only (no seal).

We don't even know what this report is, but this is *not* job shopping as presented. If Bezzy was still employed by the firm, would you make the same accusation?

We had a similar discussion a month or so back... Bezzy is under no obligation to sign or stamp anything. But there's nothing wrong with doing it - so long as there's sufficient compensation (commensurate with the extra work needed - maybe none!) and protection (E&amp;O liability for example).


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## Paul S (Sep 3, 2010)

Bezzy, can you tell us more about the specific job, what you did do while employed and what exactly they want you to sign off on?


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