# Level of engineering education in the US



## Carlito

Hi,

Having the opportunity to work in an international environment - as no doubt many of you – when talking candidly with my fellow colleagues afterhours, a I have come across an opinion which is quite perplexing to me, i.e. as compared with the engineering education in the US the level of engineering education in their respective countries is ‘much higher’, ‘more selective’, ‘way tougher’, and that us US educated fellow engineers somehow had it ‘easy’. This seems to be true for all levels (BS, MS, and PhD).

I will not form my opinion just yet (although ‘Could our system really be so lame?’ is the question on my mind), as I am curious to hear from you, especially those individuals who got their degrees both overseas and the US, and hence are in the best position to make a revealing comparison.

Regards.


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## roadwreck

carlitoUK said:


> Hi,
> Having the opportunity to work in an international environment - as no doubt many of you – when talking candidly with my fellow colleagues afterhours, a I have come across an opinion which is quite perplexing to me, i.e. as compared with the engineering education in the US the level of engineering education in their respective countries is ‘much higher’, ‘more selective’, ‘way tougher’, and that us US educated fellow engineers somehow had it ‘easy’. This seems to be true for all levels (BS, MS, and PhD).
> 
> I will not form my opinion just yet (although ‘Could our system really be so lame?’ is the question on my mind), as I am curious to hear from you, especially those individuals who got their degrees both overseas and the US, and hence are in the best position to make a revealing comparison.
> 
> Regards.


No, the U.S. engineering education is not 'lame' and is not lagging behind other countries (in my experience). Whoever is feeding you that crap is just blowing smoke up your ass to make themselves feel better about their education. If other engineering programs were really so much better then the U.S. I don't think we would see so many international students applying to U.S. institutions of higher learning.


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## Freon

I'll second what RoadWreck said, but from a different angle. My company is building a couple ships in a Chinese shipyard. The "engineers" from China and India that I deal with are what we call "Design Draftsmen" here. I will say that most of the western europe "engineers" I work with are very good. In the field that I work, the US and UK are the top of the heap.

Freon


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## Capt Worley PE

I was talking to an engineer from the UK about this a few years back. He said the UK engineering was very specific and the US education was quite broad. His example was that he was a fan engineer, whereas I was a mechanical. He could do nothing for the rest of his life but do fan engineering. I was free to pursue anything in engineering, even outside of mechanical. At the time I talked to him, I was teaching tech school. he said he couldn't do that.

May have been BS, but that's what he told me. guy was a hell of a fan engineer.


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## benbo

If the level of engineering education in the US is so bad, why are there so many engineering students from abroad begging to get into our universities? Are these students just stupid, and they want to attend substandard schools compared with those in their home country? I worked abroad on and off in the semiconductor industry for many years with engineers from all over. IMO they were about the same level as engineers in our country but their egos were enormous. Apparently humility was not part of their curriculum. At least those that I met.

And if they could solve all the problems themselves, they wouldn't have had a need for all of us.

To a certain degree it probably does depend on what school you are talking about. There are a lot of engineering programs in the US.

Now, our K-12 education is another matter.


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## Dark Knight

If their education level is so superior they are more than welcome to come and take the EIT/PE tests only once. If they pass, good, if they don't...get the hell out of here and never come back. Just a cranky thought....I am not in a good modd today for BS


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## maryannette

I worked for a German company for 13 years. There were a lot of German engineers placed in America as a stepping stone to be eligible for promotion when returning to Germany. Most of the ones I worked with were pompous and looked down on American engineers because most American engineers have only a 4-year degree. In Germany, the government pays (at least at that time) for higher education as long as you want to go. The result is that there are a lot of over-educated people with no opportunity to apply their knowledge. The additional education didn't make them better engineers. I think their engineering degree programs are much more "strictly academic" than ours. They can get an advanced degree without any design or application classes. Just book knowledge is impressive, but won't take you far in the real world. The Germans had engineers with doctorate degrees who did very specialized work, like airflow or finite element analysis. They tended to get caught up in the awesomeness of their ability to make very complex calculations, even if they didn't represent the real world.

The other thing about working with German engineers was that they didn't have female engineers. I was an anomoly. They have a low tolerance for diversity and don't appreciate differences. I think this prevents them from advancing. They get stuck on what was proven correct by their calculations.


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## Capt Worley PE

Mary made me remember something. I worked with a guy that worked for Messerschmitt-Blohm-Voss. He said the Germans were smart, pompous, and couldn't design worth poo. He said they had brilliant ideas, but the American engineers had to turn the ideas into reality.

I'm sure he had a little bias, but you're kinda cnfirming what I heard.


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## kevo_55

mary said:


> I worked for a German company for 13 years. There were a lot of German engineers placed in America as a stepping stone to be eligible for promotion when returning to Germany. Most of the ones I worked with were pompous and looked down on American engineers because most American engineers have only a 4-year degree. In Germany, the government pays (at least at that time) for higher education as long as you want to go. The result is that there are a lot of over-educated people with no opportunity to apply their knowledge. The additional education didn't make them better engineers. I think their engineering degree programs are much more "strictly academic" than ours. They can get an advanced degree without any design or application classes. Just book knowledge is impressive, but won't take you far in the real world. The Germans had engineers with doctorate degrees who did very specialized work, like airflow or finite element analysis. They tended to get caught up in the awesomeness of their ability to make very complex calculations, even if they didn't represent the real world.


In doing peer reviews for engineers from Germany I must 2nd Mary's comment.

One time I found this engineer was calculating the clamping stress on a washer for a properly torqued bolt in a standard hole. At the end of the 1 page calculation my only comment was "thanks for wasting 15 mins of my time. You're checking a damn washer."


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## Dleg

I have no experience with the actual educational curriculum in any foreign country, but I have worked with and around foreign engineers for all of my 17 years of professional experience. In particular, I have worked around engineers from just about every Asian country - China, Korea, Taiwan, Japan, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Bangladesh, and India. With the exception of most Japanese engineers, who I respect a great deal, the vast majority of people who call themselves "engineers" from those other countries are more what we in the U.S. would refer to as engineer techs, or draftpersons, just like Freon said. Maybe the smart folks from these countries move on to the U.S. for the graduate programs?

Someone posted an article that summarized a study of the quality and number of foreign engineers graduating from Asia a while back in this forum. I believe the study was performed by someone at Stanford(?), and basically refuted the rumor that the US was falling behind the Asian countries in terms of numbers of engineers being produced, and proved this primarily through showing the major differences in what passes for "engineering" in these countries' descriptions of their degrees. I'll try to find the article and bump it.

As for European engineers being superior to American engineers, I have encoutered this attitude before. Just like I have encountered the attitude that _everything_ European is better than it's American counterpart. In practice, I have met some excellent European engineers, but no more so than the American engineers I have met, which by far outnumber them in America (I guess the Europeans are happy to stay in their own countries. Good for them.)


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## ODB_PE

kevo_55 said:


> One time I found this engineer was calculating the clamping stress on a washer for a properly torqued bolt in a standard hole. At the end of the 1 page calculation my only comment was "thanks for wasting 15 mins of my time. You're checking a damn washer."


You talk big now, but anybody with 1/2 a brain knows it was washer failure that brought down Building 7

(Insert black helicopter smilie here)


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## What!!

Dark Knight said:


> If their education level is so superior they are more than welcome to come and take the EIT/PE tests only once. If they pass, good, if they don't...get the hell out of here and never come back. Just a cranky thought....I am not in a good modd today for BS


I am sorry. I couldnt just take it anymore looking at the disparaging comments.

I studied my engineering in 3rd world country. And i studied in one of the premier engineering colleges. The admission rate for my institution was about 5 per 100. My grades were in the middle of the class. For the masters degree, the competition for seats in the premier engineering colleges was so intense that i decided to do my masters in USA . I flied through my masters program here, about half of the topics were already known to me. And, i passed FE &amp; PE in first attempt, obviously.

My point is that dont just classify every foreign engineer in the same boat. There is difference between people who studied in premier engineering institutions of even a third world country and other institutions. And believe me, it is easier to get into MIT or Stanford or Harvard than those institutions. :true:

... now li am ready to


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## Dark Knight

What!! said:


> I am sorry. I couldnt just take it anymore looking at the disparaging comments.
> I studied my engineering in 3rd world country. And i studied in one of the premier engineering colleges. The admission rate for my institution was about 5 per 100. My grades were in the middle of the class. For the masters degree, the competition for seats in the premier engineering colleges was so intense that i decided to do my masters in USA . I flied through my masters program here, about half of the topics were already known to me. And, i passed FE &amp; PE in first attempt, obviously.
> 
> My point is that dont just classify every foreign engineer in the same boat. There is difference between people who studied in premier engineering institutions of even a third world country and other institutions. And believe me, it is easier to get into MIT or Stanford or Harvard than those institutions. :true:
> 
> ... now li am ready to


One thing is what you are saying and another is to go and talk trash about the engineering education in America. There are good engineering colleges all over the world. USA is not the engineering capital of the world. But there is no need to despise the education of the country that is giving many of them the chances they will never have in their countries.

See?We are not that bad.


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## What!!

Dark Knight said:


> One thing is what you are saying and another is to go and talk trash about the engineering education in America. There are good engineering colleges all over the world. USA is not the engineering capital of the world. But there is no need to despise the education of the country that is giving many of them the chances they will never have in their countries.
> See?We are not that bad.


See... How does it feel if somebody talks trash about you or your country's education system?

I am glad to have gotten opportunity to live in this land of opportunity. I totally love the system here. One thing i am concerned about here is that the R&amp;D which made this country head and shoulder over the rest is slowly disappearing. The school system is not letting out as many good students as it used to before. This is very much due to the fact that the teachers just can not control the kids because the system has become loaded in lazy kids favor. In my country teachers still hit the kids and keep them in control. Here the teachers have to play music for kids when they are giving exams (true story i heard from teacher friend of mine). During my senior year in engineering, one teacher even used to stand us up on the bench if we did not pay attention or did not do the homework (but this was exception).

Lets hope and pray that the school system controllers come to their senses and start giving teachers some kind of power.


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## Dark Knight

What!! said:


> See... How does it feel if somebody talks trash about you or your country's education system?


If I am not wrong what started this thread was the fact that someone was talking trash about the engineering education here in the states. I might be wrong.

Some of the most brilliant engineers in my field are from third world countries but I have never heard them bashing the engineering in the USA . If this works as an apology my engineering degree is not from a continental state college. It is ABET but if from an American territory. I did not mean to trash your engineering education system.

You mentioned you pased the FE and PE on the first try as a response to one mf my posts. That was a poor choice of words on my part. There are thousands of American engineers that pass the tests on their first try( I am not one of them :true: ) so to measure the competency or quality of an engineer by the times he/she had to take the FE or PE is just stupid. My bad.

I completely agree with you on the issues with the teachers and the lack of power they have.

Again, sorry if my comment offended you.


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## kevo_55

To play off DK's post, you get out whatever you put in. If you go into the lion's den covered in meat, you can expect to get eaten.

I wouldn't say that all engineers comming out of the US are piss poor. Yes, some are but not all of them. If you could rate them you would see some sort of normal distribution. I'd would bet that this could be repeated in any other country and each curve would be more or less the same.

I would also like to add something to my German engineer comment. From what I've seen from peer reviews the calculations are overanalyzed. The other side of the coin is that with more experience many of those engineers would be a force to be reckoned with.


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## Dark Knight

I want to add one more comment. I said before that some of the most brilliant engineers on my field (EE P&amp;C) are from "thirld world" countries( in my opinion that term is outdated). They are darn smart and good on their area. But that is it. Do not ask them to go to another field. They will have a lot of trouble trying that. They are specialists. I have seen this many times.

Engineers that come from American engineering schools, are more rounded and this I mean it without any reserve. We have a good foundation and our knowledge is not limited just to one area or field.

No one likes to see their origin, or education bashed. But it is beyond my understanding why will somebody dump trash on the fountain of the water they are drinking.

Bottom line is: All depends on the individual. You can go to the best engineering school in the world and come out of there being a mediocre engineer or "viceversa". To pin all the weight on the school is unreal and not fair at all.


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## Carlito

Dark Knight said:


> But there is no need to despise the education of the country that is giving many of them the chances they will never have in their countries. See?We are not that bad.


I understand your intention; however, whether we are good or bad by providing the oppurtunity to various individuals to pursue a decent, honest, life is not what's being debated at all here (quality of education is).

Also, someone has made a point that it is tougher to get into a prestigious foreign institution (unknown to the average Westener), in an undeveloped country, than it is into MIT or Harvard. This may be true in countries with an overpopulation problem (Southeast Asia - China, India, Bangladesh, Japan), but to me it is likely caused by the fact that there are probably way more candidates per a university spot - simply by way of demographics and underdevelopment.

Thanks to all for for sharing your comments.


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## JoeBoone82

benbo said:


> If the level of engineering education in the US is so bad, why are there so many engineering students from abroad begging to get into our universities? Are these students just stupid, and they want to attend substandard schools compared with those in their home country? I worked abroad on and off in the semiconductor industry for many years with engineers from all over. IMO they were about the same level as engineers in our country but their egos were enormous. Apparently humility was not part of their curriculum. At least those that I met.And if they could solve all the problems themselves, they wouldn't have had a need for all of us.
> 
> To a certain degree it probably does depend on what school you are talking about. There are a lot of engineering programs in the US.
> 
> Now, our K-12 education is another matter.



I agree... I think the K-12 is a whole other situation. Maybe a lot of their fundamentals are so strong in the K-12 that it helps them out in college. I know some people who went to elementary school in Africa and then high school in Europe. They had it easy in the bachelor's level of engineering here. They were able to have "majors" in high school, and had already taken courses in high school that you could not even have access to in the U.S. even if you were top of your class and in Advanced Placement courses.

I agree though with their being good and bad programs all over the world. Mainly depends on the individual.

I could bring up a point though that could pertain to them coming to the U.S. Maybe if they are so advanced they come here to receive better jobs, more pay, and to compete with other hires and/or students who are less competition to them. That's just a possibility. Most likely not true, but could be an argument as why they would come here. Also, most companies are trying to become diverse... might even get a second look for being intelligent plus minority.


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## benbo

JoeBoone82 said:


> I could bring up a point though that could pertain to them coming to the U.S. Maybe if they are so advanced they come here to receive better jobs, more pay, and to compete with other hires and/or students who are less competition to them. That's just a possibility. Most likely not true, but could be an argument as why they would come here. Also, most companies are trying to become diverse... might even get a second look for being intelligent plus minority.


I don't buy it. If their programs are so superior, then why are all the good jobs here? They can't develop their own companies? It makes no sense for someone to say a program is lousy, then change countries to attend it.

Now, I know that there are superior schools all over the world. You can't make blanket statements about everything. I know IIT (India) is almost impossible to get into, I know the Technion in Israel is exceptional, and I know there are schools in Asia (ie Taiwan - I can't remember the name) that are fantastic. They are on a par with our top schools but that doesn't necessarily make them better than MIT or Caltech. Look at the Nobel prize winners US schools attract and produce (and I know a lot of them are foreign students).

On the other hand, I'm sure there are a lot of programs worldwide that are more rigorous than the state school I attended. But it was good enough for me.

And for more proof, don't forget our EB.com insiders, our schools produced both

1. An honors graduate from a top three school with practical experience and a million dollar company.

2. THe top Florida engineering firm which masters stormwater modeling.

(this is a joke btw)


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## kevo_55

^^


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## TouchDown

> I wouldn't say that all engineers comming out of the US are piss poor. Yes, some are but not all of them. If you could rate them you would see some sort of normal distribution. I'd would bet that this could be repeated in any other country and each curve would be more or less the same.


What do you call the medical student who graduates at the bottom of his/her respective class???

Wait for it...

Doctor!


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## engineergurl

I have to say that I think you are all trying to compare apples to oranges here.

First, you can't base any comparison for any school on admission statistics. There could be an engineering school on the moon, and everyone could be applying because it's they think it's the best and I the single admissions officer have decided to only accept 5 people. Does that make my school really the best, no it's just selective based on the resources and oxygen supply we have there. That selectiveness makes it hard to attend, but you could probably get the same education by teaching yourself if you had the brains to do so...

You can't use graduation rates, job placement rates or any other factual statistics to compare either. We are talking about completly different situations and cultures. Once again back to my school on the moon, I've only got 5 students. Quite easy to find jobs for them since it is such a small number, so now I have a 100% job placement rate. (Do you see where I'm going here? and oh by the way, since we had so many applicants we will now only accept students who have already obtained an under graduate degree in liberal arts so we don't have to waste the resources in teaching those "other classes" like public speaking and the like.)

On top of all that, there is the whole funding issue. Who pays for what, schools here in the states have to compete for grants and research projects and the list of challenges could go on. Even comparing ciruiculums with in the US is impossible. Schools have to be generating an income to fund programs and that means the University has to be appealing to potential students which means that of course the professors can't make someone stand on a bench. No one actually WANTS to do that so why would you go to a school that might make you if there are ten others that won't and will get you the same end results.

I would say, what it all boils down to is a few simple facts.

1. The educational structure of the area prior to college level classes. I was allowed to "major" in science and math in high school. We were allowed access to transportation to the community college and to the university for higher level classes if we wanted. Not everywhere in the states has that, and other countries don't have a K-12 system like us, after the tenth year of school then it turns into what we could compare to community college.

2. The attitude of the culture. In recent years I think that the level of pride in our country has declined to a point where, well look at this thread, you are doubting your education! Did you obtain a degree? Did you obtain your PE? Are you capable of performing your job duties, is your knowledge allowing you to pursue further advancement, etc etc etc? If you answered yes to all of these questions, then you got a quality education, are following thru with it and WHO cares where that degree came from to begin with. Sure here, in our country, someone who graduated from MIT or Harvard or Yale might be more appealing at an interview, but if they can't do the work, it won't last them very long.

There is always going to be someone smarter then you, but it is the usefulness of the knowledge that you have that creates your value and your willingness to take risks based on the confidence you have in yourself that allows you to gain your own level of usefulness.

On a side note, although this thread upset me some making me think that people are doubting their backgrounds, the fact that eveyone got a little riled up has given me some faith that we are still proud to be Americans and proud of what America has to offer. :unitedstates:

My pride is not dissing any other country or what they have to offer. I don't group everyone and everywhere together, but I am totally sick of people calling us stupid Americans because we aren't, and if your views differ then mine, guess what... that's fine because that's the beautiful thing about the United States, we have more then the basic human rights granted to us, and anything more to discuss on that would be a whole other topic.


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## benbo

Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.

http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/


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## IlPadrino

benbo said:


> Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.
> http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/


Damn... my alma mater is just barely in. Should I add this to my resume?


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## kevo_55

Wow, GA Tech is #8. I am impressed.

Too bad my good old Iowa State University didn't even make the tech ranking. But... they did make it as #276 in the overall world ranking, just above the 2 year colleges.

I guess my kid will be educated in GA.


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## roadwreck

kevo_55 said:


> Wow, GA Tech is #8. I am impressed.


:woot:

roadwreck = Georgia Tech Grad

Which may explain why I don't think international programs are a step ahead of US programs.


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## EM_PS

Gee how surprising hmy: . . . 6 of top 10 were U.S., with the top 4 being U.S. universities

oh, and excellent writeup engineergurl :respect:


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## chaosiscash

kevo_55 said:


> Too bad my good old Iowa State University didn't even make the tech ranking. But... they did make it as #276 in the overall world ranking, just above the 2 year colleges.


Yeah, Clemson didn't make the list either. But Playboy consistently ranks us as having some of the best looking women in the country, so I guess we got that going over Georgia Tech. All depends on your priorities.


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## roadwreck

chaosiscash said:


> Yeah, Clemson didn't make the list either. But Playboy consistently ranks us as having some of the best looking women in the country, so I guess we got that going over Georgia Tech. All depends on your priorities.


:banhim:

blah, blah, blah...

You really don't need to remind me of the lack of co-eds at Tech. I went there, I am well aware of _that_ deficiency in the curriculum. 

The good news is that there is no lack of *ahem* 'talent' *cough cough* in that department in Atlanta, and Clemson is a short trip up the road, so you can have the best of both worlds if you like.


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## wilheldp_PE

benbo said:


> Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.
> http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/


I'd say that survey only takes into account graduate level programs or research programs. Rose-Hulman and Harvey Mudd routinely kick MIT's ass at undergraduate engineering education, and they don't even make that list. I had a buddy that went to Carnegie Mellon for his undergrad, and he said that the courses were terrible. They were all taught by TAs that had a less-than-basic grasp of the English language. All of the full professors were too busy with their research projects and/or 700-level courses to give a damn about undergrads. I went to Rose, and they only offer a handful of Masters programs and no Doctorate degrees. If you had a problem with a homework question, you could call the prof at home or visit him in his office for help...it was great. Not to mention the fact that any research projects in the school were handled almost completely by the students, with minimal supervision by a faculty member.


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## chaosiscash

roadwreck said:


> :banhim:
> blah, blah, blah...
> 
> You really don't need to remind me of the lack of co-eds at Tech. I went there, I am well aware of _that_ deficiency in the curriculum.
> 
> The good news is that there is no lack of *ahem* 'talent' *cough cough* in that department in Atlanta, and Clemson is a short trip up the road, so you can have the best of both worlds if you like.


Figured I should get my shots in now, football season is rapidly approaching, and once again I bet GT will be a thorn in our side. I agree completely about Atlanta.

As for the actual discussion, I really believe that to a point, college level education follows along the same path as the rest of the education system in the US. By that I mean that if you apply yourself and want to learn, you can get a pretty good education anywhere. If you just don't care and are only doing enough to "get by", then you are doing yourself a disservice. I went to Clemson, which is a decent school, but definately not on the list. However, I feel as though my education has been very good as far as how it has applied to the work I currently do, and has provided me with stable employment at a (in my opinion) decent salary.


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## roadwreck

chaosiscash said:


> Figured I should get my shots in now, football season is rapidly approaching, and once again I bet GT will be a thorn in our side. I agree completely about Atlanta.


Ah yes, but Tech won last year, so that means we are destined to lose to Clemson this season.


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## engineergurl

[quote name='error_matrix' date='Jun 6 2008, 10:27 AM' post='6636563'

oh, and excellent writeup engineergurl :respect:

Why thank you!


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## benbo

wilheldp said:


> I'd say that survey only takes into account graduate level programs or research programs. Rose-Hulman and Harvey Mudd routinely kick MIT's ass at undergraduate engineering education, and they don't even make that list. I had a buddy that went to Carnegie Mellon for his undergrad, and he said that the courses were terrible. They were all taught by TAs that had a less-than-basic grasp of the English language. All of the full professors were too busy with their research projects and/or 700-level courses to give a damn about undergrads. I went to Rose, and they only offer a handful of Masters programs and no Doctorate degrees. If you had a problem with a homework question, you could call the prof at home or visit him in his office for help...it was great. Not to mention the fact that any research projects in the school were handled almost completely by the students, with minimal supervision by a faculty member.


Obviously this is just one group's survey using their methodology. I just used it as an example of how this is all very subjective, and there is certainly no consensus that US universities are lousy.


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## benbo

IlPadrino said:


> Damn... my alma mater is just barely in. Should I add this to my resume?


The school I dropped out of is on here, but the school I finally graduated from probably wasn't even up for consideration. I don't think many people outside Caifornia ever heard of it. But I still managed to get employment.


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## Carlito

engineergurl said:


> On a side note, although this thread upset me some making me think that people are doubting their backgrounds, the fact that eveyone got a little riled up has given me some faith that we are still proud to be Americans and proud of what America has to offer. :unitedstates:


The intention of this post was not to belittle any American because of his education, nor to make anyone upset; rather, it was to provoke the exchange of ideas and views in a constructive atmosphere. Sure, US has still a lot to offer, although when I think of the stupidity in invading :iraq:, the resources wasted equal to that it would cost to rebuild the country's entire infrastructure system (to say nothing of the lives lost on both sides!!!), I start to doubt the greatness of the leaders of this once great nation... There's nothing wrong with pride in one's land, but when pride blinds one's judgment, that is usually the beginning of the end. We know from history of the price many a nation has paid for becoming complacent, over confident in their infallibility. So it is always useful to have these discussions. One of the problems we have in the US, I think, is accepting criticism for what it really is and what can be gained from it (i.e. saying something critical is auomatically equated to being un-American - why??? this is really silly and immature, thoughtless to say the least), but that could well make for a whole new thread...


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## benbo

carlitoUK said:


> The intention of this post was not to belittle any American because of his education, nor to make anyone upset; rather, it was to provoke the exchange of ideas and views in a constructive atmosphere. Sure, US has still a lot to offer, although when I think of the stupidity in invading :iraq:, the resources wasted equal to that it would cost to rebuild the country's entire infrastructure system (to say nothing of the lives lost on both sides!!!), I start to doubt the greatness of the leaders of this once great nation... There's nothing wrong with pride in one's land, but when pride blinds one's judgment, that is usually the beginning of the end. We know from history of the price many a nation has paid for becoming complacent, over confident in their infallibility. So it is always useful to have these discussions. One of the problems we have in the US, I think, is accepting criticism for what it really is and what can be gained from it (i.e. saying something critical is auomatically equated to being un-American - why??? this is really silly and immature, thoughtless to say the least), but that could well make for a whole new thread...


Interesting - you don't want to belittle anyone, but you label certain people as silly, immature, and thoughtless. But I'm certain you'll accept my criticism for what you can gain from it.

I'm an engineer. When somebody makes a statement I like to see some objective evidence. But I guess it must be different in the high-falutin' schools outside the US.

Nothing can be gained from the engineers you quote at the beginning of the thread. THey are expressing a biased opinion not grounded in any fact or statistic, or at least they are not letting us in on their rationale. Which shows me something about their technical prowess. If someone wants me to respect their statements, then give me some numbers, some facts, don't just shoot off your mouth. So I'll freely call their comments unfounded. Criticisms are welcome if they are backed up. Generally what criticism amounts to (and these engineers opinions are a perfect example) is just opinion.


----------



## engineergurl

Criticize: verb:

1 : to consider the merits and demerits of and judge accordingly

2 : to find fault with : point out the faults of

Criticize away... but I still hold my stance and state that I got a great education and it was because I wanted to, it had nothing to do with what institution I attended.

How did this turn into an Iraq debate? I won't go there.

"I start to doubt the greatness of the leaders of this once great nation... There's nothing wrong with pride in one's land, but when pride blinds one's judgment, that is usually the beginning of the end. We know from history of the price many a nation has paid for becoming complacent, over confident in their infallibility"

We were not once a great nation, we are a great nation. Any faults that we have should be debated elsewhere, and my pride does not blind me from those faults. And considering the internal debates in regards to the any of the choices of our leaders, I doubt that anyone else is blind either nor would I consider the general population "over confident in their infallibility".

The point I was trying to make with my little side note is that there are so many doubts in the minds of everyone in this country and often things seem dismal, that it was refreshing to see that members did a few look ups and researched their schools to back up their own arguments, they got a little fired up and it was kick @$$...

If you had wanted to "provoke the exchange of ideas and views in a constructive atmosphere" then perhaps the title on the thread should not have referenced specificlly the United States but rather just to have stated that you wanted to discuss the level of engineering education in general... the mere fact that you singled out that one specific portion of my post, brought up Iraq and in general dissed our leaders... well that leads me to conclude otherwise, despite what you claim in more recent postings.

If this had really been about the level of education, then you would have put me in my place by finding some statistics to counter the postings about the rankings of schools, argued about my moon school, hell, given us a problem to solve that you don't think was taught in the schools of the US to prove a point, instead you resorted to turning the thread with political issues that we are debating here anyway. Not cool dude.

Okay I won't go there totally but here is something to consider, last time I checked, Americans were not the only soldiers in Iraq... the Brits are there too.


----------



## Guest

^^^ Couldn't agree more!

JR


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## Flyer_PE

^^ :appl: Ditto!


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## Carlito

engineergurl,

I appreciate your input, as I am sure do others reading this forum. Again, the intention was to provoke a discussion based on a true scenario - despite your hints of otherwise... And the responses were great and informative, at lest in my opinion. The rankings consistently show US and UK universities in the top, so there is no point of going there... it was the real life experience I was after...For the record, before it gets out of hand, let's have a civilized discussion free from 'firing up' and 'kicking ass'. Apologies if anyone feels offended - not my intention! Honest!

And apologies for going off topic to politics, but politics do shape our reality and lives whether we want it or not - it does no good to pretend otherwise... It makes me furious when I think of this infamous exploit (for the record, last time I checked: there were about 150,000 US soldiers to 4,000 British - have no illusion who's running the show), to support which we are borrowing $ billions from communist China - how do you like that? (and ever wondered why the communists in China are fine with the US gov't, but the communists in Cuba are not?) BTW The forecasts show that China's economy will outgrow ours in about 5 years time. Yep, the world does not stand still, the times - they are changing, man... but OK, no more politics in here!

So there, hope this clears the air - let's get back to the topic!


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## Capt Worley PE

Amen, engineergurl.


----------



## benbo

carlitoUK said:


> engineergurl,
> I appreciate your input, as I am sure do others reading this forum. Again, the intention was to provoke a discussion based on a true scenario - despite your hints of otherwise... And the responses were great and informative, at lest in my opinion. The rankings consistently show US and UK universities in the top, so there is no point of going there... it was the real life experience I was after...For the record, before it gets out of hand, let's have a civilized discussion free from 'firing up' and 'kicking ass'. Apologies if anyone feels offended - not my intention! Honest!
> 
> And apologies for going off topic to politics, but politics do shape our reality and lives whether we want it or not - it does no good to pretend otherwise... It makes me furious when I think of this infamous exploit (for the record, last time I checked: there were about 150,000 US soldiers to 4,000 British - have no illusion who's running the show), to support which we are borrowing $ billions from communist China - how do you like that? (and ever wondered why the communists in China are fine with the US gov't, but the communists in Cuba are not?) BTW The forecasts show that China's economy will outgrow ours in about 5 years time. Yep, the world does not stand still, the times - they are changing, man... but OK, no more politics in here!
> 
> So there, hope this clears the air - let's get back to the topic!


Well, you are right about one thing. I'm sure people appreciate engineergurl's input.

Guess what? I don't believe a single thing you say about your motivation. If you are not trying to offend or stir things up you better work on your social skills, because you really come across as someine with a big chip on their shoulder.

What are you talking about, real life experience? Are you an engineer or some sort of Oprah? Real life experience means anecdote and opinion. It is worthless for analyzing anything in a serious manner.

And you consistently "apologize" for things and then repeat the same offense. On a topic about about university education you first bring up Iraq and then China and Cuba. Talk about complete non sequiturs.


----------



## awdturboiv

Good news for us Illinois Civil grads. I hope it paid off and I passed this thing!

http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews....nps04_brief.php


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## Carlito

benbo,

I do not like to waste time on pointless discussions, but since this is an important issue and an unfair attack, I will make an exception. Here's my final say.

First of all, you are not being honest: I was not the one who started going off topic to statements about the pride in the greatness of our country (what did it have to do with my original question? We were not debating it at all.).

I had another view which I have shared with the others, and I have done so w/o offending or insulting anyone. I understand you and others may not agree with me, may not like what I have said, and that's fine (rest assured, I can live with that), but is that a way to express your disagreement: by ridiculing and insulting the other side? Wow, that's really mature, professional and fair. (Goes against the principles this country prides itself on).

In addition, if one cannot appreciate any criticism, that's just a sign of immaturity and insecurity (and what an insecure nation we are!). And you seem to back it up really well with resorting to insults (apparently that's your high level of social stills and courtesy you would want me to aspire to) and including others as supporting your statement. That's fabrication.

So why can't I have my say - don't we claim to have the "best democracy in the world (...that $ can buy" - as some people in certain parts of the world say, anyway)? And how can you expect to solve a problem if there was one? By pretending there is none? Wow, that's really cool, really mature... guaranteed to get the problem solved! 

Unless this the 'good old guys &amp; girls forum of mutual brown nosers' (which I hope it is not), where you cannot either express or counter an opinion in a civilized manner, I don't see why I cannot have my say.

I rest my case (I will not answer to any more offensive posts, so for anyone looking for a vent - take a chill pill.).


----------



## Guest

^^^ I think you have missed the point of what others have stated, so I am not going to :deadhorse:

I do feel the need to address one comment:



carlitoUK said:


> Unless this the 'good old guys &amp; girls forum of mutual brown nosers' (which I hope it is not), where you cannot either express or counter an opinion in a civilized manner, I don't see why I cannot have my say.


Many of the good old guys and girls of this forum are veterans, married to veterans, or a close relative or friend of a veteran. A lot of people have had to sacrifice A LOT when it has come to the war in Iraq - making obtuse, broad-brushed statements about this country's involvement in that war is going to chafe, at best.

Knowing that your statements are potentially inflammatory but trying to hide behind the statement that its' just opinion and then whine about freedom of expression which is the very thing those veterans who serve ARE protecting for folks like you and me is bad form in my book. Whine away ... don't expect to get any sympathy .. or respect for that matter.

I am not sayin' ... just sayin'

:2cents:

JR


----------



## maryannette

carlitoUK said:


> Here's my *final *say....


Thank you.

:unitedstates:

I LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!

Instead of pointing out faults that other countries have, I would like to say that despite it's faults, I think the USA is the best place in the world for ME. If I didn't, I would try to find a way to move somewhere else.


----------



## benbo

carlitoUK said:


> benbo,
> Here's my final say.


Finally a statement I applaud! Although I'm holding my breath it is true.

In typical fashion, this guy takes up a half a thread with his nonsense and then complains he can't have his say. In a backhanded way he insults the entire US university system (which educated probably over 90% of the people reading), and then calls everybody a 'good old guys &amp; girls forum of mutual brown nosers' or silly, immature, and thoughtless (while trying to maintain some plusible deniabiliity, which everyone sees through). Then he get's his panties bunched because I say he needs to work on his social skills or ask him if he is some sort of "Oprah."


----------



## roadwreck

Wow guys. Cut carlito some slack. Guess what, there are plenty of people in this world that have a similar opinion to his. It's a different view from a different perspective and I for one don't disagree with anything Carlito has stated. How did we go from education to a discussion on the worlds best nations? There was even a little bit of college football thrown in to boot. Let's go back to that 'civilized' discussion.

I'll throw Carlito a bone. I agree with much of what he has said. America has issues, and sometimes pride in our country blinds us to the fact that we may not be as great as we think we are. I think brining up some of those issues has struck a nerve with some prideful posters who may have lashed out unfairly. Of course, my opinion may be just as skewed as Carlito's, after all I'm a brit too. I'm an American also. I think that affords me a unique perspective in that I understand that pride in ones nation can sometimes get the better of a person. Imagine how hard it is for me, I have to have pride in two nations. Think of how screwed up that can make you. :wacko:


----------



## chaosiscash

^^ I vote we stop discussing the world's best nations and contain our arguements to college football.


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## kevo_55

Please let this topic die!!! It's ruining my Thursday!


----------



## benbo

roadwreck said:


> Wow guys. Cut carlito some slack. Guess what, there are plenty of people in this world that have a similar opinion to his. It's a different view from a different perspective and I for one don't disagree with anything Carlito has stated. How did we go from education to a discussion on the worlds best nations? There was even a little bit of college football thrown in to boot. Let's go back to that 'civilized' discussion.
> I'll throw Carlito a bone. I agree with much of what he has said. America has issues, and sometimes pride in our country blinds us to the fact that we may not be as great as we think we are. I think brining up some of those issues has struck a nerve with some prideful posters who may have lashed out unfairly. Of course, my opinion may be just as skewed as Carlito's, after all I'm a brit too. I'm an American also. I think that affords me a unique perspective in that I understand that pride in ones nation can sometimes get the better of a person. Imagine how hard it is for me, I have to have pride in two nations. Think of how screwed up that can make you. :wacko:


You're probably right. You opinion is skewed. Because as far as I know I have NEVER ONCE mentioned anything about pride in my country, any war or policy. I challenge you to find it. MY posts have all had to do with his supposed "civilized", but backhanded anecdotal slap at the US University system. I am still waiting for him to supply any evidence. I put in a peer survey, but of course he dismisses that. That is what I am criticizing, and I stand by that criticism.


----------



## roadwreck

kevo_55 said:


> Please let this topic die!!! It's ruining my Thursday!


oh c'mon. It was just getting interesting. Let's see if we can't stir up some more controversy instead of letting the thread die.

I think Tommy Bowden is the worst coach, in any sport, ever! :17:


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## roadwreck

benbo said:


> You're probably right. You opinion is skewed. Because as far as I know I have NEVER ONCE mentioned anything about pride in my country, any war or policy. I challenge you to find it. MY posts have all had to do with his supposed "civilized", but backhanded anecdotal slap at the US University system. I am still waiting for him to supply any evidence. I put in a peer survey, but of course he dismisses that. That is what I am criticizing, and I stand by that criticism.


Benbo,

quit being a dick. Let it die.


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## benbo

roadwreck said:


> Benbo,
> quit being a dick. Let it die.


Astute comment. Glad to see you are fully using your logical abilities.


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## roadwreck

benbo said:


> Astute comment.


Thanks. I liked the ring to it.


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## roadwreck

benbo said:


> Astute comment. Glad to see you are fully using your logical abilities.


:jerkit:

You're doing it again. Please see my previous statement.



> quit being a dick.


----------



## benbo

roadwreck said:


> :jerkit: You're doing it again. Please see my previous statement.
> 
> :screwloose:


Since it is obviously beyond you to actually respond to what I have written, I'll quit. THe last time I dealt with your line of argument I think I was in the fourth grade.


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## roadwreck

benbo said:


> Since it is obviously beyond you to actually respond to what I have written, I'll quit. THe last time I dealt with your line of argument I think I was in the fourth grade.


Sigh



> Benbo,
> quit being a dick.


----------



## Capt Worley PE

roadwreck said:


> Thanks. I liked the cinnamon ring to it.


Fixed it for you.


----------



## roadwreck

Capt Worley PE said:


> (roadwreck @ Jun 12 2008, 09:13 AM) Thanks. I liked the cinnamon ring to it.
> 
> 
> 
> Fixed it for you.
Click to expand...

:Locolaugh:


----------



## kevo_55

Hey, this thread is just starting to get fun.

Keep it going!!!

Ha ha! Cinnamon ring!!


----------



## engineergurl

I can keep it going for one more post, just because I have one or two more things to say, but then allyall are on your own. Has anyone read the post from begining to end lately. Wow.

In my original posting, I thought I had some points... maybe you weren't into my moon school, but I thought I had brought up some points to validate that comparing the schooling from country to country would be near impossible. In fact I kind of feel like the only way would be to get every student in all the schools to solve the same problems and time them... even then it may not be an accurate judgement (oh crap, I think they have that already... isn't it that kinda like that thing you guys call the PE exam?, [SIZE=12pt]sorry couldn't resist[/SIZE])

What I can't understand was why no one mentioned a thing in the like 6 other paragraphs that I wrote, but my little side note on the post about how people were doubting their edcuation was quoted and then BAM all holy heck breaks loose. I may have been on the defense in other postings just because the whole political thing hits so close to home for me, and I don't understand why it was brought up. And of course once I'm on the defensive where I am actually allowed to respond on topics then I'm a firecracker lit up.

So I return to the original topic at hand... and refer to my own REAL life experiences. I have found (in my limited experience being so young and beautiful and innocent, joke, ha ha) that the best engineers are the ones who started at the bottom and worked their way up despite what edcuation held (where they went to school or for how many years). They're more rounded supervisors and employees, they acknowledge that there might be people out there that know better and are pretty well open to new ideas rather then sticking to the book learning. Every situation is going to be different if it wasn't then, there would be one set of master plans drawn up and there wouldn't be an engineering field so to speak. A wise man once told me, engineering was developing solutions to problems. The more experience one has in solving a particular type of problem, the better engineer they will be for that problem type. In higher education, prior to research level, I think that the problems being solved are too generic, and unrealistic compared to the work place.

Of course I have had experience with only a handful of engineers with international educational backgrounds, I found those that I have interacted with were cut and dry in regards to designs and really did everything by the book, I just chocked it up to the fact they obtained their positions based on education rather then experience and moved on. (As this was my observation of most engineers of simliar type resumes, and I never gave the international part a thought) I have yet to come across an inter-planet or inter-galactic engineer, so other then hypothetical references, I have no opinion on those.


----------



## roadwreck




----------



## engineergurl

HEY! I got back on topic and tried to refer to my moon school reiterate my points... don't blame me if it gets out of hand again!


----------



## Dark Knight

opcorn:


----------



## EM_PS

WARNING!

The following is a blatant plagerism from somebody here that posted it long ago [sorry, i wanna give props, but don't remember who posted this]

Let us review the rules of the noble profession of engineering:

1. Engineering is a noble sport which calls for good sportsmanship. Occasional blundering is part of the game. Let it be your ambition to be the first one to discover and announce your blunders. If somebody else gets ahead of you, take it with a smile and thank him for his interest. Once you begin to feel tempted to deny your blunders in the face of reasonable evidence, you have ceased to be a good sport. You are already a crank or a grouch.

2. The worst habit you can possibly acquire is to become uncritical towards your own concepts and at the same time skeptical towards those of others. Once you arrive at that state, you are in the grip of senility, regardless of your age.

3. When you commit one of your ideas to print, emphasize every controversial aspect of your thesis which you can perceive. Thus, you win the respect of your readers and are kept aware of the possibilities for further improvement. A departure from this rule is the safest way to wreck your reputation and to paralyze your mental activities.

4. Very few people are either so dumb or so dishonest that you could not learn anything from them.

This goes both ways . . . .maybe show it to all your Queen's subjects smack-talkers my man - we're all brothers / sisters in sliderules here


----------



## Carlito

jregieng said:


> Many of the good old guys and girls of this forum are veterans, married to veterans, or a close relative or friend of a veteran. A lot of people have had to sacrifice A LOT when it has come to the war in Iraq - making obtuse, broad-brushed statements about this country's involvement in that war is going to chafe, at best.


But that's exactly what I was doubting: were these sacrifices necessary (think about the fabricated evidence about the weapons of mass destruction and of support for Al-Kaida)?

And explain to me, how anything I have said can possibly be construed to discredit our servicemen and women serving in Iraq any way - and their relatives and friends? I feel sorry for the victims of this mad war and for their families as any other human being, but yet I refuse to live an illusion that their sacrifice somehow justifies our involvement there... damn, also think of the other side: ravaging and raping the country, destroying the whole infrastructure, leaving thousands of civilians, women and children, dead...

I think it's time we wake up and smell the coffee and start asking some basic questions, like 'Where is America heading with it's military involvement in Iraq'? Was it needed and how long are we to remain there? What can we do now and what's the way forward in our international policy?

For starters, let's do our homework, and ask a basic, fair question: how did 'that evil dictator Saddam' come about'? (only for those that didn't know.... simple: the American gov't, paved a way for him to come to power, and then supplied him with weapons (also of mass destruction), to fight their neighbors, Iran. And did we need him to fight Iran? And why our so called allies, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, is the #1 financial supporter of the very terrorists we are fighting? Any takers? and so on... see, this is just starting to get interesting...

And don't be surprised if people in foreign lands dare to have an opinion that runs contrary to yours. Anyone remembers when we started bashing and making fun of the French - by boycotting French goods, and insulting (the "Screw the French" , and the "Freedom fires" campaigns) after they said "Merci" to their involvement in Iraq? Had they no right to decide for themselves? (And who's having the last laugh now? - is it not the French and the Germans)?

Again, this is off topic, but too an important issue to be blessed with silence.

I realize that what I am saying is not popular, but then again, popularity is not what I am after (rather a civilized discourse).

So have your say - but please don't waste our time with dumb comments or insults.


----------



## Carlito

mary said:


> Thank you.


Mary, again, by silencing one's opinion or sweeping the dirt under the carpet, you are not going to solve a problem - and as an experienced engineer, you should know better.



mary said:


> I LOVE MY COUNTRY!!!
> ...I think the USA is the best place in the world for ME.


Good for you, Mary.

But again, I don't understand how your expressed love for our country and the claim that it the best place in the world for you adds anything to this discussion here - where has it been said to the contrary? Was it because I said I doubt our leaders and the direction they took on Iraq? (I take it to support my observation of how insecure a nation we are...)

Believe me, there are people, and I am not even talking about the Middle East here, who beg to differ about the moral standard exercised abroad... there is the good in America which no one here doubts, but there is also no small part of crop, affecting not only us, but the better part of the world, which not too many of my fellow country mates seem to care to either recognize or discuss... and I wonder - why is that?


----------



## Dark Knight

I do not know mate. I think it is enough of this issue. You have your opinion and it is respected, although many of us here think you are wrong. We have had friends, relatives or somebody we know involved in that conflict and it is not relevant if the war has a valid motive or not. They are there, risking their lives and that is the bottom line.

You seem to be smart and centered so you know the effect your comments are having. I do not agre with the message you are bringing here but the only thing I am going to say that it is enough. If the sacrifces were/are necessary it is not up to you or me to decide. The only ones with the moral right to decide that are the ones that were there and the ones that are there.

Unless you had someone shooting at you, or you had to carry a wounded friend, or you had to lift the dead body of a pal you have no business judging the war or this country. If you do not like here...I guess you know what you can do.


----------



## Guest

carlitoUK said:


> And explain to me, how anything I have said can possibly be construed to discredit our servicemen and women serving in Iraq any way - and their relatives and friends?


I did not say that.



carlitoUK said:


> I think it's time we wake up and smell the coffee and start asking some basic questions, like 'Where is America heading with it's military involvement in Iraq'? Was it needed and how long are we to remain there? What can we do now and what's the way forward in our international policy?


Fair questions but do you think these questions have not been asked? Do you believe dialogue akin to what you offer is going to, as you put it, start the basic questions?



carlitoUK said:


> For starters, let's do our homework, and ask a basic, fair question: how did 'that evil dictator Saddam' come about'? (only for those that didn't know.... simple: the American gov't, paved a way for him to come to power, and then supplied him with weapons (also of mass destruction), to fight their neighbors, Iran. And did we need him to fight Iran? And why our so called allies, the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, is the #1 financial supporter of the very terrorists we are fighting? Any takers? and so on... see, this is just starting to get interesting...


So I take it you understand the dynamics of the middle east (and specifically Iraq) so well that there is a SIMPLE reason why things have proceeded?



carlitoUK said:


> And don't be surprised if people in foreign lands dare to have an opinion that runs contrary to yours. Anyone remembers when we started bashing and making fun of the French - by boycotting French goods, and insulting (the "Screw the French" , and the "Freedom fires" campaigns) after they said "Merci" to their involvement in Iraq? Had they no right to decide for themselves? (And who's having the last laugh now? - is it not the French and the Germans)?


Nobody is disputing your contrarian views - they are pointing out the inflammatory manner in which you have provided those views.



carlitoUK said:


> Again, this is off topic, but too an important issue to be blessed with silence.


Well .. they do say silence is golden.



carlitoUK said:


> I realize that what I am saying is not popular, but then again, popularity is not what I am after (rather a civilized discourse).
> So have your say - but please don't waste our time with dumb comments or insults.


And here we are ... at the end of all things and yet again another backhanded comment to those who have offered opinions as well.

I have not called your comments dumb or a waste - only inflammatory. It is you sir, who doesn't seem to be able to manage a civil discourse without resorting to name calling. And with that I will NOT be responding to any more of your diatribe.

JR


----------



## Carlito

Dark Knight said:


> You have your opinion and it is respected, although many of us here think you are wrong.


Man, what planet do you live on??? I know that engineers on the whole tend to be conservative, but have you no idea that about 2/3 of US population is against this war?

(see CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. April 28-30, 2008, http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm)



Dark Knight said:


> ... it is not relevant if the war has a valid motive or not.


Oh God, I can't believe this is coming from an engineer - an educated, intelligent individual!!!

Dear Lord, I really want to believe that you have no idea what you have just said....



Dark Knight said:


> You seem to be smart...


Why, thank you, dude.

But judging solely on the strength of your arguments, I cannot say the same about you. 



Dark Knight said:


> If you do not like here...I guess you know what you can do.


Wow, I take this to be the height of your argumentation...

Yet another low blow...

OK, everyone, let's pretend nothing's wrong - that will surely make it go away...

Christ, is this the way you solve your problems?


----------



## Carlito

jregieng said:


> And here we are ... at the end of all things and yet again another backhanded comment to those who have offered opinions as well.


That's just not fair.

You are playing dumb.

Have you not a bit of common honesty left?

(take a look at what sort of comments my previous views got me...)



jregieng said:


> Nobody is disputing your contrarian views...


And why is that?

I thought the whole idea behind having a forum as this was to promote an exchange of ideas and opinions.

As soon as I expressed a view which some did not like, I get insulted and the like... is that the way to have a discussion?



jregieng said:


> ...they are pointing out the inflammatory manner in which you have provided those views.


And what is this 'inflammatory manner' you are referring to?

I have expressed my views without insulting anyone.

In return I get insults and low blows from everywhere.

Everything but even a shade of valid arguments.

Except for one other voice, others seem to want to continue living an illusion... hoping it just goes away like a bad dream...


----------



## Dark Knight

Carlito...I know the mods are going to discipline me because of this post but I will gladly face it.

You remind me a guy, a former member here,that had your same attitude of being higher than thou. Well, no one is perfect. For the record: I am against the war and that is well known here. But there are men and women dying for what they think is right,or for what they were ordered to do, and I am not the one to judge them. I can only support them. As far as I know not to many of them are there because they wanted to go. They are following orders and doing their job. Who am I to judge them? Who the heck are you to judge them?

We have a good friend that just came from Irak a few months ago after a year deployed. An engineer, with a wife and a kid. Just came back to the states and is trying to re-take his life. Got good job and is doing great. Guess what...he is facing the posibility of bieng deployed again. Do you think he wants to? I do not think so and I am praying he does not have to go back there. How do you think he is going to feel if he reads the bunch of crap you posted? Just out of respect I would avoid making comments against the war even when he knows I am against it.

There is something called respect and consideration. You do not know the meaning of those words.

Maybe you are darn right. I am not too smart, looks like not as smart as the all-knowing full of it carlito from UK so based on that, my apologies to the mods and to the Lord(I am going to sin) and I am going to speak with my heart and not my head.....

Darn....I cannot do it...You do not worth it.

Edit: My apologies to whoever read what I posted before editing. I broke my own rule of not posting or saying something out of anger.

Sorry mates


----------



## EM_PS

carlitoUK said:


> Oh God, I can't believe this is coming from an engineer - an educated, intelligent individual!!!Dear Lord, I really want to believe that you have no idea what you have just said....
> 
> Christ, is this the way you solve your problems?


Fancy yourself a religious man? Maybe your worries can be allieviated w/ the following news. . .

http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=12942

if that's not taking the starch outta your collar maybe this will put the starch somewhere else. . .

http://www.catholic.org/international/inte...ry.php?id=28244

no need to thank me [i'm really busy seriously considering your tortured attempts at dialogue]


----------



## Guest

HWY PE said:


> If you can answer yes to that, well, fuck bro, you're successful.


:appl: :bowdown: :respect:

JR


----------



## maryannette

carlitoUK said:


> As soon as I expressed a view which some did not like, I get insulted and the like... is that the way to have a discussion?


There is a good way to keep from getting "insulted and the like" ...

Stop posting provoking comments.

Okay, I changed the angry words to a more polite version.


----------



## maryannette

Oh, and I forgot ...

:banhim:


----------



## Katiebug

wilheldp said:


> I'd say that survey only takes into account graduate level programs or research programs. Rose-Hulman and Harvey Mudd routinely kick MIT's ass at undergraduate engineering education, and they don't even make that list. I had a buddy that went to Carnegie Mellon for his undergrad, and he said that the courses were terrible. They were all taught by TAs that had a less-than-basic grasp of the English language. All of the full professors were too busy with their research projects and/or 700-level courses to give a damn about undergrads. I went to Rose, and they only offer a handful of Masters programs and no Doctorate degrees. If you had a problem with a homework question, you could call the prof at home or visit him in his office for help...it was great. Not to mention the fact that any research projects in the school were handled almost completely by the students, with minimal supervision by a faculty member.


Yup yup. I work with two guys who are Rose-Hulman grads and I've been impressed with their really solid fundamental engineering knowledge. I did my undergrad at UConn. Not a big name school, and we had our issues with non-engineering courses being taught by TAs whose grasp of English was poor. Every single physics and chem lab, and every math class that I took, was taught by a grad student, and I really struggled with multivariable calculus due to the very poor teaching ability of that particular TA. Fortunately, engineering courses were all taught by professors, most of whom were both excellent researchers AND excellent teachers. A friend who did his undergrad at MIT had a very different experience. Unfortunately for him, that experience cost him more than $100K in student loans - and he doesn't command any higher of a salary than me.

I work with a lot of international engineers. Our friends from Canada are really no different from most US grads in terms of education and the way they work. The accent is really the only way I can pick the Canadians out of the lineup, eh! We have a few from the UK and they're pretty much the same in terms of technical competence, although their educational system is very different. Western Europe: good technical knowledge, not much in the way of "soft" skills. My German colleagues come up with great designs and great manufacturing quality, but they're not much for conversation and business-related issues are left to specialists in that area.

I've struggled with some engineers from Asia in particular who are technically very knowledgeable but are hard to get new, innovative ideas out of. They're used to a different culture where you don't necessarily speak up and disagree with your superior if you think he's wrong or if you have a better idea. It's much more hierarchical and while they do great "cookie cutter" engineering, especially modeling or finite element work, ask them to design a new component from scratch and they often struggle in a big way. There's a lot of deference to age, experience, and education and it can be difficult to get these engineers to open up and participate as part of a development team, or to produce a real, functional design. I notice this most among those whose engineering education was solely in their country of origin; I know several others who did their undergrad in China/India/Korea and came to the US for grad school and this is much less of an issue. I suspect it's purely cultural.



jregieng said:


> Many of the good old guys and girls of this forum are veterans, married to veterans, or a close relative or friend of a veteran. A lot of people have had to sacrifice A LOT when it has come to the war in Iraq - making obtuse, broad-brushed statements about this country's involvement in that war is going to chafe, at best.


It's beating the dead horse and all that, but my brother's on active duty right now. I've grown to be against the Iraq war, but the kid knew what he was risking when he signed up. He knew the risks when he volunteered for his current unit. He knew the risks every time he's volunteered to go to Iraq (twice now; he keeps getting turned down because his billet requires specialized training and they can more easily send more of a generalist whose replacement won't take 6 months to get up to speed). It may just be his service, but we're all well aware that regardless of whatever job he's doing he's taking a risk. Totally unrelated to the Iraq war, he could go out on a SAR (search and rescue) case and not come back. It's part of the gig.



HWY PE said:


> Want my opinion.... no, oh well, too bad, I'm an admin so I'll give it. Who gives a shit, do you get a paycheck every payday for doing your engineering job that you got by going to your engineering school? Can you feed your family and pay your mortgage with your degree? If you have to answer no to either of those questions then your degree ain't worth shit. If you can answer yes to both of those questions, then move to question 3. Can you have a little fun with the money you make after you've met your financial obligations? If you can answer yes to that, well, fuck bro, you're successful.


Out-damn-standing. Agreed 100%!


----------



## Capt Worley PE

mary said:


> There is a good way to keep from getting "insulted and the like" ...


mary, is it just me, or does it sound like Miss Teen SC wrote that "insulted and the like?" It reminded me of 'The Iraq.'


----------



## Carlito

Katiebug,

Wow, great insight.

Thanks for sharing!


----------



## EM_PS

How about that US Open playoff yesterday?  appears were still measuring d#cks around here. . . .


----------



## maryannette

Hey, let's hijack the thread and keep it from dragging in the ditch. Yeah! How 'bout the sudden death!


----------



## EM_PS

sudden death was good, was hoping they weren't gonna have to play another 18 holes!! The US major is weird like that. . . . .


----------



## roadwreck

error_matrix said:


> The US major is weird like that. . . . .


but is it true that US majors aren't up to the level of majors in other countries?

:Locolaugh:

Sorry, I couldn't help myself.


----------



## EM_PS

:tv: :bio: :lmao: :thumbs:


----------



## chaosiscash

HWY PE said:


> What'd I miss?
> Want my opinion.... no, oh well, too bad, I'm an admin so I'll give it. Who gives a shit, do you get a paycheck every payday for doing your engineering job that you got by going to your engineering school? Can you feed your family and pay your mortgage with your degree? If you have to answer no to either of those questions then your degree ain't worth shit. If you can answer yes to both of those questions, then move to question 3. Can you have a little fun with the money you make after you've met your financial obligations? If you can answer yes to that, well, fuck bro, you're successful.


That might possibly be the best post I've ever read on this message board. Well done.


----------



## maryannette

chaosiscash said:


> That might possibly be the best post I've ever read on this message board. Well done.


Yeah, yeah, but we're talking about little white balls now.


----------



## BluSkyy

carlitoUK said:


> Hi,
> Having the opportunity to work in an international environment...


In my opinion, it is a very human characteristic to think that one's own difficult experiences (read: professional training) are the most difficult out there.

There are engineering programs in the US that are quite good, as in many other nations.

That being said, I don't really care what someone trained in Spain, the UK, Turkey, India, China, or Russia thinks of the state of engineering education in the US; my engineering program (not even in the top 100) was a solid program and a great preparation for my chosen area of work.


----------



## maryannette

Hey, Blue, do you play golf?


----------



## chaosiscash

mary said:


> Yeah, yeah, but we're talking about little white balls now.


I would expect EIT-Testee to have a comment here...


----------



## maryannette

chaosiscash said:


> I would expect EIT-Testee to have a comment here...


:bio: :smileyballs:


----------



## Capt Worley PE

The name 'golf' was chosen for the sport because all the other four letter words were taken.


----------



## BluSkyy

lol, a trick question because you guys are tired of this topic. I am too, I suppose. I really want to say something substantive to carlitoUK, but I suppose I will hold off 

Yes I play golf; I play it quite badly but I like getting out of the house and walking around and trying to do little things well.


----------



## maryannette

BluSkyy said:


> Yes I play golf; I play it quite badly but I like getting out of the house and walking around and trying to do little things well.


arty-smiley-048:

Maybe we need a golfer emoticon.

Thanks, Blue.


----------



## IlPadrino

HWY PE said:


> What'd I miss?
> Want my opinion.... no, oh well, too bad, I'm an admin so I'll give it. Who gives a shit, do you get a paycheck every payday for doing your engineering job that you got by going to your engineering school? Can you feed your family and pay your mortgage with your degree? If you have to answer no to either of those questions then your degree ain't worth shit. If you can answer yes to both of those questions, then move to question 3. Can you have a little fun with the money you make after you've met your financial obligations? If you can answer yes to that, well, fuck bro, you're successful.


HWY PE,

I get your point, but not everyone works to live. If I worked to live, I wouldn't be doing what I am now...


----------



## Capt Worley PE

^Selling smack at the Pioneer Chicken Shack??


----------



## Dark Knight

Anyone thought Tiger Woods was going to win? I see Tiger and see Michael Jordan and Lance Armstrong: DOMINANT


----------



## EM_PS

mary said:


> Maybe we need a golfer emoticon.


Now to totally tank the thread. . . .


----------



## maryannette

:Locolaugh:


----------



## FLBuff PE

And here is what I have to say on this issue:

Otter: Point of parliamentary procedure!

Hoover: Don't screw around, they're serious this time!

Otter: Take it easy, I'm pre-law.

Boon: I thought you were pre-med.

Otter: What's the difference?

[Addressing the room]

Otter: Ladies and gentlemen, I'll be brief. The issue here is not whether we broke a few rules, or took a few liberties with our female party guests - we did.

[winks at Dean Wormer]

Otter: But you can't hold a whole fraternity responsible for the behavior of a few, sick twisted individuals. For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole fraternity system? And if the whole fraternity system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, Greg - isn't this an indictment of our entire American society? Well, you can do whatever you want to us, but we're not going to sit here and listen to you badmouth the United States of America. Gentlemen!

[Leads the Deltas out of the hearing, all humming the Star-Spangled Banner]


----------



## BluSkyy

L

O

L


----------



## TouchDown

error_matrix said:


> Now to totally tank the thread. . . .


That dude is in trouble... she's totally not looking at the ball when she swings. Keep your head down.


----------



## Dark Knight

TouchDown said:


> That dude is in trouble... she's totally not looking at the ball when she swings. Keep your head down.


Well...what if the ball were somewhere else. That would be trouble.


----------



## maryannette

TouchDown said:


> That dude is in trouble... she's totally not looking at the ball when she swings. Keep your head down.


Keep the balls down, too.

THAT'S what I'm talkin' about!!!!


----------



## testee

that's what gravity is for.


----------



## cement

mary said:


> Keep the balls down, too.


good strategy on a windy day.


----------



## C-Dog

Bringing it back to topic, somewhat... US still leads the world in science and technology.

Read more

K-12 education is what is dragging us down, not the University system. Because of this, we are more dependent on foreigners to keep it up (not necessarily a bad thing if they naturlize and become citizens).


----------



## Capt Worley PE

And speaking of derailing a topic, who here loved Tootle as a child?


----------



## JoeBoone82

C-Dog said:


> Bringing it back to topic, somewhat... US still leads the world in science and technology.
> Read more
> 
> K-12 education is what is dragging us down, not the University system. Because of this, we are more dependent on foreigners to keep it up (not necessarily a bad thing if they naturlize and become citizens).


I agree, and if we do blame the universities... then the foreigners can be included in that topic as well. I do not know about others, but I think about 80% of my engineering professors were from countries outside of the U.S.


----------



## TouchDown

CW -



> And speaking of derailing a topic, who here loved Tootle as a child?


I never was able to put a name to the little train on the back of almost all the Golden Books. Thank you sir, thank you.


----------



## Capt Worley PE

Not a problem!

How about this little fellow?


----------



## MikeR

benbo said:


> Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.
> http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/


I may be uniquely qualified to give some perspective on this subject.

I went to High School in a developing or third world Asian country. I got my degree from Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands (ranked 17 in the world). Worked for 5 years in Europe and moved to the US a few years ago. I have/am taking classes in a US University. I have also taken classes at my local community college (best value for your $$$).

The main difference I see in the US vs European System is...

In the US you are given every opportunity to learn and pass. In the European System your home work is not checked or graded, no mid-terms etc. Generally it is one final exam per quarter (mainland Europe not the UK). In other words you are given every opportunity to fail. Some may argue that at University level one should not be babied. My reply to that is that you are there to learn the subject matter and not to show how quickly you can pass exams.

Most top Asian Universities do not offer a broad practical Engineering curriculum. Hence most Asian Engineers who graduate from top Asian Universities are very good at the theory level but less so at the practical level. One Asian University that I do like is the Indian Institute of Technology (based on the US model).

Being a graduate from a leading European University I can say that in my humble opinion, a decent State University in the US produces better all round Engineers than most top European or Asian Universities.

By the way I read on the BBC news website that of all Nobel prizes won for academic works that the US leads the rest of the world by a whopping 70% or so. Not bad for a crappy University system eh... Hans?

Conclusion:

The "choice and level" of engineering programs or for that matter most academic program offered in the US beats the rest of the world by miles. As other posters pointed out given a choice, 90% of world engineering students would and do choose the US :unitedstates: .

I wish I had chosen the US instead of the flesh pots of Amsterdam... but that's another story.


----------



## PinoyCE

With regards to Asian Engineers referred to "Design Technicians" in the US, I believe its due to experience gained. People coming from a third world country such as me, we're really having a hard time getting a job that you want in the field of your choice. As we know these countries are suffering from economic downfall. Most of them are overqualified for the job, and in the long run they tend to be in the job that what you call DESIGN TECHNICIANS.

But in-regards to level of engineering education, I dont think there's a huge gap between the Philippines and the US.


----------



## Art

this reminds me of the ...

whose the best soldier

which is the best martial art

etc.

it's the MAN (or woman) that makes the difference...

I've worked with guys from CMU that I would not let change batteries in a flashlight, and others from PSU's tech programs that ran circles around them...

I worked with an engineer from the UK at Cardinal Health, big shot job...MS, Chartered Engineer?, etc....he couldn't do squat...

I have worked with engineers from many different countries...

and having taken graduate classes for the last couple of years have a perspective...

the foreign students seem to work harder, and appreciate the education more, but when all is scored, they don't rank any better...

and more than a few have foreign undergraduate degrees, and we must assume, they are the cream of the crop...

most American students enjoy themselves, and still get by...mindset

in my expereince most foreign grads (India, China, etc., not europe) are smart, but can't get shyte done...

they have no project skills, and over analyze everything, never making progress...

they fit in fine in a large corporate enviornment, but in a small dynamic group, their flaws shine thru...

they are book smart, but can't think outside the box, nor do they see the big picture, the client end, the $$$ end, etc., only nuts and bolts...

perhaps it's communication related, perhaps it's 'attitude'

on the other hand the engineers from Germany &amp; Sweden are very competent...in all aspects, not just technical...

engineering is as much a skill and art, as it is a science...

US engineers are more generalists


----------



## Jtiger

benbo said:


> If the level of engineering education in the US is so bad, why are there so many engineering students from abroad begging to get into our universities? Are these students just stupid, and they want to attend substandard schools compared with those in their home country? I worked abroad on and off in the semiconductor industry for many years with engineers from all over. IMO they were about the same level as engineers in our country but their egos were enormous. Apparently humility was not part of their curriculum. At least those that I met.And if they could solve all the problems themselves, they wouldn't have had a need for all of us.
> 
> To a certain degree it probably does depend on what school you are talking about. There are a lot of engineering programs in the US.
> 
> Now, our K-12 education is another matter.


Very good point. It seems other engineers from foreign countries want to boost their own ego. I knew many international students that failed out of grad school when I was there.


----------



## mina0o0

I had 4 years of electrical engineering in Cairo university ( 5 years program) then I transferred to the city university of NY. well, I have to admit that students' academic level in Egypt is way better than here, but the thing is, in order to get into engineering school in Egypt you have to score more than 95% in high school, so basically students who have the change to go to engineering school are not more than 7% of the entire nation student, you have to be really smart to get there. so the thing is not that the engineering programs there is better, it's because the quality of engineering students there is better than the quality in here. but if you compared two engineers, one from egypt and the other is form the U.S, and both have the same IQ level, you would find the American engineer is way better, cause he had better education.


----------



## Roy T.

I have a very simple reply to this topic.

There is a reason why third world countries are "third world". Do you want to drink the water in India? How about the roads, highways, bridges, airports, communication infrastructure, basic sanitation, Or, if you prefer, what about the "glam" project that make a city skyline beautiful? high-rises (there are few high-rises in Latin America and most deisgned to 19th century standards), stadiums? does any third world country have an equivelent to Joe Robbie Stadium?

And finally - riddle me this Batman... why do they keep applying to our engineering schools in droves? why, once they get back to their home countries, are they instantly reverved and offered senior management positions based on their "inferior" US education?

The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Engineers build the infrastructure of society. If that infrastructure is a run down wreck... then what does that tell you about the Engineers and their oh so competitive education.


----------



## JoeBoone82

Roy T. said:


> I have a very simple reply to this topic.
> There is a reason why third world countries are "third world". Do you want to drink the water in India? How about the roads, highways, bridges, airports, communication infrastructure, basic sanitation, Or, if you prefer, what about the "glam" project that make a city skyline beautiful? high-rises (there are few high-rises in Latin America and most deisgned to 19th century standards), stadiums? does any third world country have an equivelent to Joe Robbie Stadium?
> 
> And finally - riddle me this Batman... why do they keep applying to our engineering schools in droves? why, once they get back to their home countries, are they instantly reverved and offered senior management positions based on their "inferior" US education?
> 
> The proof is in the pudding so to speak. Engineers build the infrastructure of society. If that infrastructure is a run down wreck... then what does that tell you about the Engineers and their oh so competitive education.


Well, you're leaving out the money differences. One cannot build the best, with out the financial support. I also think a lot of them come here to the U.S. for their education, so that they can become licensed here and work in the U.S., and not live in poverty... not because the education is superior, but because the standard of living is superior.


----------



## Kephart P.E.

MikeR said:


> I may be uniquely qualified to give some perspective on this subject.
> I went to High School in a developing or third world Asian country. I got my degree from Delft University of Technology in the Netherlands (ranked 17 in the world). Worked for 5 years in Europe and moved to the US a few years ago. I have/am taking classes in a US University. I have also taken classes at my local community college (best value for your $$$).
> 
> The main difference I see in the US vs European System is...
> 
> In the US you are given every opportunity to learn and pass. In the European System your home work is not checked or graded, no mid-terms etc. Generally it is one final exam per quarter (mainland Europe not the UK). In other words you are given every opportunity to fail. Some may argue that at University level one should not be babied. My reply to that is that you are there to learn the subject matter and not to show how quickly you can pass exams.
> 
> Most top Asian Universities do not offer a broad practical Engineering curriculum. Hence most Asian Engineers who graduate from top Asian Universities are very good at the theory level but less so at the practical level. One Asian University that I do like is the Indian Institute of Technology (based on the US model).
> 
> Being a graduate from a leading European University I can say that in my humble opinion, a decent State University in the US produces better all round Engineers than most top European or Asian Universities.
> 
> By the way I read on the BBC news website that of all Nobel prizes won for academic works that the US leads the rest of the world by a whopping 70% or so. Not bad for a crappy University system eh... Hans?
> 
> Conclusion:
> 
> The "choice and level" of engineering programs or for that matter most academic program offered in the US beats the rest of the world by miles. As other posters pointed out given a choice, 90% of world engineering students would and do choose the US :unitedstates: .
> 
> I wish I had chosen the US instead of the flesh pots of Amsterdam... but that's another story.



Mike, you posted exactly what I have experienced as well. I am a Consultant Engineer and I interface with many European and Asian companies, mainly they sell equipment that my clients want to buy/install.

The European Engineers are about what I would expect of a Engineer from the US System, but most would never make it here in the US. Mostly because they are inflexible. They can't/don't want to convert units and or make things work in ways that they may not have been intended. We all know this is one of the most difficult things that our clients almost always want to do. And yes, I do feel like they "believe they are superior". Heck if I got a month of vacation every year I might think so too. But this is why their economies will never rival the US. Their Social System drags them down. Think of the people you know in the US that are on welfare/disability/unemployment that really don't deserve it (we all know at least one). Think about how many more their would be if we had the sort of social services that Germany/France/UK had.

On another note, I don't know what the Japanese teach their Engineers, but a few I thought were complete imbeciles, .......after a while I realized these dudes where very bright, but they could not think on their feet and would constantly be asking me questions and hoping I could fix everything for them. And yes I went to a lowly state school.

Don't get me started on China, if you have to work with them be afraid, very afraid or hope they went to a US School.


----------



## txaggie

I agree with what everyone else is saying pretty much. What little experience I have with international engineers I have found that they are ALL book smarts. They're great to hang out with because they can usually put away the beers as well but when it comes down to the practicality of their work...things usually don't go as well as they expect when they bring their ideas from the lab/office to the field. I think we, as American Engineering students/engineers we get a lot of good practical knowledge as well as classroom instruction.


----------



## Carlito

Art said:


> ...it's the MAN (or woman) that makes the difference...


I think that sums it up nicely.


----------



## jharris

benbo said:


> Here's a group that did a peer survey. Take it for what it's worth.
> http://www.topuniversities.com/worlduniver...ngs/technology/


Gee, I graduated in 2007 and my school isn't on that list. Oh well, I still consider myself a competent engineer with sound practical knowledge. I don't really care much about those stats anyway. There are several good engineering schools which didn't make that list. I'd take the best kid from Rowan University and put him up against Stanford's best any day of the week.


----------



## mce01

Engineering in the US is less hardcore in Math, which makes it kind of easier....but they are more practical and better overall I think

that's why people flock to the US to attend the engineers schools


----------



## YaGoof

mce01 said:


> Engineering in the US is less hardcore in Math, which makes it kind of easier....but they are more practical and better overall I thinkthat's why people flock to the US to attend the engineers schools


Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......

How 'bout these macro-scale comparison:

Rolls Royce vs. GE Aircraft Engines vs. Pratt and Whitney

Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, BMW vs. Toyota, Honda, Hyundai vs. Ford, GM vs. Fiat, Ferarri

Boeing vs. Airbus

Candair vs. Embraer vs. Boeing

Samsung vs. Sony vs. Zenith

You'd be hard pressed to argue that American engineers win every one of these battles.....

Bottom line: it just depends.


----------



## wilheldp_PE

YaGoof said:


> You'd be hard pressed to argue that American engineers win every one of these battles.....
> Bottom line: it just depends.


You'd be hard pressed to argue that there aren't American engineers working for every single one of those companies.


----------



## YaGoof

wilheldp_PE said:


> YaGoof said:
> 
> 
> 
> You'd be hard pressed to argue that American engineers win every one of these battles.....
> Bottom line: it just depends.
> 
> 
> 
> You'd be hard pressed to argue that there aren't American engineers working for every single one of those companies.
Click to expand...

That's fair, given that we live in a global economy. But tell me what percentage? Is it a requirement that US engineering students learn Japanese/German/French/Portuguese/Mandarin Chinese?

How many German/French/Japanese engineers speak English? I'd venture to guess its a hell of a lot more.

Now if the definition of "American engineer" is "American-educated", that's different. According to "Engineering Trends" - the range is about 8-10% of BSc degrees are foreign nationals. For Masters degrees its about 50% and for PhDs, its about 73%.

http://www.engtrends.com/degrees1945-006.php


----------



## Santiagj

I would say american educated. In reality we are just comparing the education not the citizentry. I think?


----------



## benbo

> Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......


True, I don't see a lot other than anecdotal info (a list of companies) in your post, and one set of statistics that basically supports the notion of superior engineering education in the US.

Is it possible to read the topic of the thread and actually discuss that question? Quality of engineering education?

The statistic you post about foreign students only support the notion that foreign students value an American education. It doesn't really say why AMerican born engineers don't pursue advanced degreees. Possibly it's because they pursue jobs, which is also probably the main reason foreign national come to the US - at least before the recession.

So, if we actually want to address the topic of the thread, Engineering Education, why not look at official rankings -

http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp


----------



## YaGoof

benbo said:


> Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......
> 
> 
> 
> True, I don't see a lot other than anecdotal info (a list of companies) in your post, and one set of statistics that basically supports the notion of superior engineering education in the US.
> 
> Is it possible to read the topic of the thread and actually discuss that question? Quality of engineering education?
> 
> The statistic you post about foreign students only support the notion that foreign students value an American education. It doesn't really say why AMerican born engineers don't pursue advanced degreees. Possibly it's because they pursue jobs, which is also probably the main reason foreign national come to the US - at least before the recession.
> 
> So, if we actually want to address the topic of the thread, Engineering Education, why not look at official rankings -
> 
> http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp
Click to expand...

I think my point is, this is protacted discussion with no ending, because any argument will rely, by default, on anectodal evidence. There are excellent engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US and there are some really bad engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US.

By quoting rankings we are right back where we started from. Some on this very board have argued that a degree from a Stanford or MIT means nothing.....some have suggested that a degree from Chinese Unversity should be viewed with skepticism

I invite you to read my last line:

"It just depends"

The top schools on the list you cite are "tops" primarily because of their graduate programs and the research money they attract. However, if you look at these programs, almost 50% of their students are foreign nationals....note that it is these same foreign nationals who are teaching assistants who educate undergraduate students.

I suggest you read the methodology:

http://www.arwu.org/FieldMethodology2009.jsp

How do you evaluate quality of education? In my view, ultimately, speaking as an engineer, it depends on products/results, ie. the graduants.

Do graduants produce products that kill people? Do their products last a long time? Are they reasonably priced? Are they on the cutting-edge of technology? Do they clothe, house and feed poor people? Do they result in increased mobility of capital and welfare?

This is precisely why I gave a list of companies. Because the objective of an education program is to produce professionals that are capable of engineering products that enhance the human experience. The term "human experience" is subjective. So the most logical way of making rational comparisions is to compare competing products that serve the same market.


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## wilheldp_PE

YaGoof said:


> How do you evaluate quality of education? In my view, ultimately, speaking as an engineer, it depends on products/results, ie. the graduants.
> Do graduants produce products that kill people? Do their products last a long time? Are they reasonably priced? Are they on the cutting-edge of technology? Do they clothe, house and feed poor people? Do they result in increased mobility of capital and welfare?


How is that a measure of what makes a good engineer? What if it's their job to make products that kill people (weapon systems)? What if they work for niche industries that sell disposable and/or luxury goods? Why would people design stuff just for people that can't afford to buy them?

That is quite possibly the silliest list of attributes I have ever seen assembled.


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## benbo

YaGoof said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anecdotal evidence on engineers is not particularly useful.......
> 
> 
> 
> True, I don't see a lot other than anecdotal info (a list of companies) in your post, and one set of statistics that basically supports the notion of superior engineering education in the US.
> 
> Is it possible to read the topic of the thread and actually discuss that question? Quality of engineering education?
> 
> The statistic you post about foreign students only support the notion that foreign students value an American education. It doesn't really say why AMerican born engineers don't pursue advanced degreees. Possibly it's because they pursue jobs, which is also probably the main reason foreign national come to the US - at least before the recession.
> 
> So, if we actually want to address the topic of the thread, Engineering Education, why not look at official rankings -
> 
> http://www.arwu.org/ARWUFIELD2009ENG.jsp
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think my point is, this is protacted discussion with no ending, because any argument will rely, by default, on anectodal evidence. There are excellent engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US and there are some really bad engineers that are born and educated abroad or in the US.
> 
> By quoting rankings we are right back where we started from. Some on this very board have argued that a degree from a Stanford or MIT means nothing.....some have suggested that a degree from Chinese Unversity should be viewed with skepticism
> 
> I invite you to read my last line:
> 
> "It just depends"
> 
> The top schools on the list you cite are "tops" primarily because of their graduate programs and the research money they attract. However, if you look at these programs, almost 50% of their students are foreign nationals....note that it is these same foreign nationals who are teaching assistants who educate undergraduate students.
> 
> I suggest you read the methodology:
> 
> http://www.arwu.org/FieldMethodology2009.jsp
> 
> How do you evaluate quality of education? In my view, ultimately, speaking as an engineer, it depends on products/results, ie. the graduants.
> 
> Do graduants produce products that kill people? Do their products last a long time? Are they reasonably priced? Are they on the cutting-edge of technology? Do they clothe, house and feed poor people? Do they result in increased mobility of capital and welfare?
> 
> This is precisely why I gave a list of companies. Because the objective of an education program is to produce professionals that are capable of engineering products that enhance the human experience. The term "human experience" is subjective. So the most logical way of making rational comparisions is to compare competing products that serve the same market.
Click to expand...

I am not the one who started this thread basically to bash American education as "easy". Once again, we are talking about the education, not the national origin of the students. If you want to admit that you cannot claim one group of engineers is necessarily better than another, fine, I'll agree with that.

I've read the methodology. THere's nothing wrong with it as a judgement of the quality of education. Graduate education is education, investment of research dollars is a valid measurement. And this is not the only ranking methodology that gives this basic listing. You just don't seem to like it.

Here's one at least partially based on peer and employer rankings -

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-...ings/technology

I'm not going to bother to look up any more, because it won't matter to you anyway.

The way I judge the quality of something is by its desirability in the marketplace. THe fact that so many foreign students come here, with very few going the other direction, leads me to believe they feel they will recieve a superior education here. As you point out, they are intelligent, so I assume they know what they are doing. What difference does it make that someone is born elsewhere? They value the education they recieve here. I don't know why you keep bringing this up.

A few more points -

1. If you go anywhere in the world and turn on a computer it likely has an Intel or Motorola processor. It is probably running on Windows or the Apple operating system. The major websites will be Google or Amazon. These are American companies. Yes, maybe Google's founders were born elsewhere, but they came here to study and found their company. In my former industries, defense, satellite communications, and semiconductor capital equipment the leading companies were all US. And I worked overseas a good deal so I saw it. In my current industry, the power industry, most gas turbines are GE, Rolls Royce, or Alstom, with GE very prevalent. A US, English, and French/Swiss company. Steam turbines – again GE, along with Siemens (but again, here we have Siemens Westinghouse).

2. The US is not a monolithic ancient principality like those in Europe and Asia. It is not millennia old. It is specifically composed of immigrants who come here for the opportunity. If there are a lot of international students entering US universities that speaks well to the accessibility and desirability of these universities. Plus, a lot of these students remain and work here. Both of those things are "plus 1" for the US in my book.

3. Why is it always the US, a single country of a few hundred million people, compared with everywhere else in the world, total? China has billions of people, no wonder they produce a lot of engineers at the top. The vast majority of the populace there are uneducated, with a very low standard of living. It's just a fact.


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