# Is this your pet peeve too?



## ikesdsu (Oct 18, 2012)

I was having a conversation with a guy in our office that is an EIT about the use of "Engineer" in the industry. We work in the consulting industry so your engineering degree, EIT, and PE is very valuable. I have noticed the "watering down' of the term Engineer in the industry and the general population that are not Engineers. It frankly bothers me becuase I, along with everyone else who graduated with an Engineering degree had to miss that rocking party when we were in college and had to go to that 8 am physics class while the business majors or art majors were doing keg stands. I even heard a commercial on the radio for a local tech school for a "Diesel engineering degree" which is really only a diesel mechanic. Not that there is anything wrong with a diesel mechanic degree but you are not an Engineer. The same thing seems to be happening with the new "manufacturing engineering technology" degrees. While they have to take some engineering classes they are still not engineers. Don't get me wrong, there isn't anything wrong with these degrees but they are not "Engineers"

I have noticed the same thing with people in the consulting feild using "Engineer" on business cards, emails, ect when legally you are not an "Engineer" with respect to the law. You may have a Engineering degree, and an EIT but you are not technically an "Engineer" At least in our state (South Dakota) the state Engineer has been working on getting people that are not registered from calling themselves "Engineers" They allow you to call yourself EIT, mechanical/electrical designer, but not Engineers.

Is this anyone elses pet peeve? I am proud and very protective of the fact that I am a registered ENGINEER and I don't want it to loose its meeting.


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## ptatohed (Oct 18, 2012)

Check out page 6 of the Apr '12 Licensure Exchange.

http://www.ncees.org/About_NCEES/Licensure_Exchange/Licensure_Exchange/Licensure_Exchange_April_2012.php


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## Peele1 (Oct 19, 2012)

I have stated this before, and will again... http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=19766&amp;st=0&amp;p=6982919&amp;hl=+physician%20+assistant&amp;fromsearch=1entry6982919

what we need to do is petition the lawmakers to make laws limiting the use of the term Engineer. We need to petition them to require a real Engineer (EIT or PE) be required for more work, increasing the demand for Engineers.

Also, the term Engineer _In Training_ is a horrible, horrible term. It is similar to Physician's _Assistant_. These two professions have authority and responsibility, yet a title that makes them sound like juveniles. The diluted term engineer is perceived as better than the official term Engineer _In Training_, doesn't it?

Perceived order is PE&gt;Engineer&gt;engineer&gt;EIT, even though this is not true.

I propose EIT be renamed to Registered Engineer. Then we'll have PE&gt;RE&gt;Engineer&gt;engineer.

We could also come up with a new, copyrightable term, similar to what the Realtor association has done.


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## ptatohed (Oct 19, 2012)

Peele1 said:


> I have stated this before, and will again... http://engineerboard...1
> 
> what we need to do is petition the lawmakers to make laws limiting the use of the term Engineer. We need to petition them to require a real Engineer (EIT or PE) be required for more work, increasing the demand for Engineers.
> 
> ...


You lost me. A PE is an RE.


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## [email protected] (Oct 20, 2012)

While I am going to deduct a few points based on the "sdsu" in your engineerboards.com name (SDSMT Alum)...kidding aside, I agree 100%. I worked with many people in my previous career that were labeled as "test engineers", "integration engineers", "production engineers" etc. Until I started working at a A/E firm, I really never knew there was a difference. I agree that the term engineer should be regulated more stringently. I am proud of my EI and PE credentials, and I enjoy the fact that there are many opportunities that aren't available to others using that term. My problem arises in the fact that the general public doesn't realize the difference between a licensed engineer, a "test engineer", and the engineer that drives a train. We are professionals just like lawyers, doctors and CPAs...but our profession is watered down to the point that anyone can call themselves an engineer based on industrial exemption. We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices. I base some of this on the fact that my engineering on a daily basis involves no more than basic calculations and .xlsx spreadsheets. I freaked out on how much I did or didn't study for the PE, but when it was all said and done...it wasn't any harder than a typical week in the office. The PE is nothing more than knowing the fundamentals of engineering and the ability to apply them. Good luck on next weeks "suckhole"...it's not near as bad as what your mind tells you it is.


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## ptatohed (Oct 21, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> While I am going to deduct a few points based on the "sdsu" in your engineerboards.com name (SDSMT Alum)...kidding aside, I agree 100%. I worked with many people in my previous career that were labeled as "test engineers", "integration engineers", "production engineers" etc. Until I started working at a A/E firm, I really never knew there was a difference. I agree that the term engineer should be regulated more stringently. I am proud of my EI and PE credentials, and I enjoy the fact that there are many opportunities that aren't available to others using that term. My problem arises in the fact that the general public doesn't realize the difference between a licensed engineer, a "test engineer", and the engineer that drives a train. We are professionals just like lawyers, doctors and CPAs...but our profession is watered down to the point that anyone can call themselves an engineer based on industrial exemption. We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices. I base some of this on the fact that my engineering on a daily basis involves no more than basic calculations and .xlsx spreadsheets. I freaked out on how much I did or didn't study for the PE, but when it was all said and done...it wasn't any harder than a typical week in the office. The PE is nothing more than knowing the fundamentals of engineering and the ability to apply them.	Good luck on next weeks "suckhole"...it's not near as bad as what your mind tells you it is.


I went to SDSU. 

You lost me at the half-way point.............. are you saying that an engineering degree is harder to accomplish than a medical or law degree? And you're saying that the PE exam is as easy as a week at work? I don't think these are fair statements.


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## calypso699 (Oct 21, 2012)

ptatohed said:


> I went to SDSU.


I think he meant South Dakota State University. On a related note, I also went to SDSU (San Diego State University). Graduated in 2008. When did you graduate? Very likely we crossed paths at some point.


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## ptatohed (Oct 21, 2012)

calypso699 said:


> ptatohed said:
> 
> 
> > I went to SDSU.
> ...


Nice. I graduated in Dec 2004.


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## calypso699 (Oct 21, 2012)

Well, it look like we wouldn't have crossed paths at all. Nice to see another fellow Aztec on here.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Oct 22, 2012)

> We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices.


:blink2: Wow, can you introduce me to your drug dealer?


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## Jaylaw_PE (Oct 23, 2012)

ptatohed said:


> [email protected] said:
> 
> 
> > While I am going to deduct a few points based on the "sdsu" in your engineerboards.com name (SDSMT Alum)...kidding aside, I agree 100%. I worked with many people in my previous career that were labeled as "test engineers", "integration engineers", "production engineers" etc. Until I started working at a A/E firm, I really never knew there was a difference. I agree that the term engineer should be regulated more stringently. I am proud of my EI and PE credentials, and I enjoy the fact that there are many opportunities that aren't available to others using that term. My problem arises in the fact that the general public doesn't realize the difference between a licensed engineer, a "test engineer", and the engineer that drives a train. We are professionals just like lawyers, doctors and CPAs...but our profession is watered down to the point that anyone can call themselves an engineer based on industrial exemption. We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices. I base some of this on the fact that my engineering on a daily basis involves no more than basic calculations and .xlsx spreadsheets. I freaked out on how much I did or didn't study for the PE, but when it was all said and done...it wasn't any harder than a typical week in the office. The PE is nothing more than knowing the fundamentals of engineering and the ability to apply them.	Good luck on next weeks "suckhole"...it's not near as bad as what your mind tells you it is.
> ...


 no i think he's saying an engineering bachelor's degree is harder than the bachelor's degree you need in order to go on to law school (almost certainly true) and med school (quite possibly true).


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## Rockettt (Oct 24, 2012)

"missed that party" that cracked me up. I took a different approach. i partied my balls off but i was fortunate that if i did all my homework, and I did...id be a B student or better. I was OK with that. did i get a 3.95 gpa? no. 3.2. but i never missed a party!!!  I have almost had my teeth smashed out by the unfortunate keg stand....

i agree about engineer being 'watered' down though. I defend whenever i find a chance. So many times I get put into the same pond as a plans engineer. so when plans come through for takeoffs...and something is f'ed. i get a call from sales and get the joking...."stupid engineers". if they come in and start that....i just point to the frame on the wall....haha. yes thats right, bow.

All in all at least we all know how smart we are  but can admit mistakes. we're all human.

now im craving a sam adams. little early though.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Oct 24, 2012)

> "missed that party" that cracked me up. I took a different approach. i partied my balls off but i was fortunate that if i did all my homework, and I did...id be a B student or better. I was OK with that. did i get a 3.95 gpa? no. 3.2. but i never missed a party!!!  I have almost had my teeth smashed out by the unfortunate keg stand....


My buddy and I used to start drinking at 11 AM once we legally were able to go to the bar. We still made the dean's list every semester. The people you see at a dive bar at 11 AM are a savory batch, let me tell you.


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## sumpnz (Nov 9, 2012)

VTEnviro said:


> > "missed that party" that cracked me up. I took a different approach. i partied my balls off but i was fortunate that if i did all my homework, and I did...id be a B student or better. I was OK with that. did i get a 3.95 gpa? no. 3.2. but i never missed a party!!!  I have almost had my teeth smashed out by the unfortunate keg stand....
> 
> 
> My buddy and I used to start drinking at 11 AM once we legally were able to go to the bar. We still made the dean's list every semester. The people you see at a dive bar at 11 AM are a savory batch, let me tell you.


One of my classmates in college showed up late one day. I think it was Aerodynamics I. Anyway, the a couple other people intimated that he was probably drunk and/or hung over. When he came in the door the prof commented that his classmates thought him an alcoholic. His response: "I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings."


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## MGX (Nov 16, 2012)

I work in construction. Lots of people in construction have the job title of engineer but never studied the subject in school or never have taken/passed the licensing exam. I still am confused because I understand I can't call myself an engineer until I pass the PE exam.


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## ikesdsu (Nov 16, 2012)

MGX said:


> I work in construction. Lots of people in construction have the job title of engineer but never studied the subject in school or never have taken/passed the licensing exam. I still am confused because I understand I can't call myself an engineer until I pass the PE exam.


While I agree with you, it is all about what the laws say in your state. You can call yourself and engineer, just not plans.


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## Raging C2H5OH (Nov 21, 2012)

Funny, I was down in Key West a few weeks ago and the girlfriend and we met this guy at Hog's Breath and he gave us his business card. It said something along the lines of "Vice President of Engineering for Mechanical Services". It didn't say PE, I said have you taken the PE? He said, "What's that?". I mean really, I have come across my share of Iron Workers telling me that they are structural engineers and it urks me to the core.  But when this guy advertises himself as the VP of engineering and didn't know what the PE was.... This is a whole new level. I nearly lost it and had we had to leave.


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## solomonb (Nov 21, 2012)

Make a copy of the card and send it to the state board. Let them educate him on what an engineer really is. This costs nothing, is totally anonoymous and you feel good about what you did.


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## sumpnz (Nov 26, 2012)

Raging C2H5OH said:


> Funny, I was down in Key West a few weeks ago and the girlfriend and we met this guy at Hog's Breath and he gave us his business card. It said something along the lines of "Vice President of Engineering for Mechanical Services". It didn't say PE, I said have you taken the PE? He said, "What's that?". I mean really, I have come across my share of Iron Workers telling me that they are structural engineers and it urks me to the core. But when this guy advertises himself as the VP of engineering and didn't know what the PE was.... This is a whole new level. I nearly lost it and had we had to leave.


There's a lot of industries where one can be an engineer without a license. Aerospace and heavy trucks are the ones I have personal experience with. Ask folks in those industries about a PE and you'll either get a blank stare or a response that the license is mostly pointless. I'd guess that of all the people I've worked with over a dozen years, maybe 5%, tops, have a license. I'm only getting mine because for some reason upper management thinks it's a good idea in spite of the fact that I have ZERO expectation of ever actually using my stamp during the course of my job.

My feeling is, if you have a degree in engineering and are doing engineering work then you are just as much of an engineer as someone that's taken the time to pass some test. At least right now there's no legal bar against doing engineering work (at least in certain industries) or calling yourself an engineer or being the VP of engineering at some company without a license. Unless there's more info you're not sharing I'd calm down a bit about all that.

My BIL is now working in some control room for a cable TV company and seems to think that makes him an engineer (it's in the job title). He's never been to college, couldn't solve an engineering problem if his life depended on it, etc. Calling him an "engineer" is about as accurate as calling a garbage collector a "sanitation engineer". It's got more to do with PC and making people feel good about themselves. I'll roll my eyes, but I'm not about to take that up with my state board.


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## solomonb (Nov 26, 2012)

Sumpnz-- The point that marks distinction is the fact that many state boards do NOT allow you to define yourself as an engineer unless you have passed the state mandated PE examination. The fact that you are an engineer and have taken all of the classes and have a degree from an ABET accredited institution makes you an engineer. I will not argue with that. The point of argument is that many states have defined, in state code and statute that one can hold him/herself out to be an engineer UNLESS they have successfully passed the FE and PE examination. Now, to argue the merits of the point is without basis-- that is how many state statutes are written. I don't know if that is so in the "Model State Statute", however, I would suspect that to be the case.

PC aside, many and I suspect most, if not all, states require you to have passed the PE examination in order to be full recognized as an ENGINEER, at least by the state. Job protection, job security, protection of licensees-- these are all questions that one could and should ask if he/she wants to explore this question.

From my experience, the more that I work with licensing, is that the license assures the public that you have indeed passed a minimum set of competencies, have some general understanding of the public safety and welfare, and that you perform your practice to a set of perscribed standards. (Those standards are the canons of the Professional Engineer). Rightly or wrongly, I think that is the crux of the argument in this matter.

Perhaps I am wrong or see the world skewed? If so, I am all ears!


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## ptatohed (Nov 26, 2012)

The way I understand the Professional Engineers Act in California is that there are no restrictions for the use of "Engineer" as you guys keep referring to. http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/licensees/pe_act.pdf See section 6732, page 10. Unless I am missing it, there is no mention that the use of the term "Engineer" is restricted to only those who are licensed. It does, however, specifically state it is unlawful to use the term Registered Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Civil Engineer, etc., etc. Maybe other states are different?


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## solomonb (Nov 26, 2012)

The California statue is more specific than many states. Section 6732 of the California Professional Engineers Act is much more descriptive than many other states. In many states, the simple use of the term "Engineer" is prohibited if not licensed as a licensed/registered professional engineer.in that specific state. Appears that California is different in that regard than many other states.


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## ptatohed (Nov 26, 2012)

solomonb said:


> The California statue is more specific than many states. Section 6732 of the California Professional Engineers Act is much more descriptive than many other states. In many states, the simple use of the term "Engineer" is prohibited if not licensed as a licensed/registered professional engineer.in that specific state. Appears that California is different in that regard than many other states.


I believe you solo but, just to satisfy my curiosity, could you link me to a State Board's Engineer's Act forbidding the use of "Engineer" if not licensed? Thanks.


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## guitarjamman (Nov 28, 2012)

This is a very gray area and I am glad that I get to read differing opinions on it too. I am an EIT but when I applied for my mortgage, I used Civil Engineer as my occupation - if I wrote Engineer-In-Training they would probably start asking questions. Unfortunately like it has been stated before, EIT makes it sound like I wear diapers and need my and held for every step of the process....regardless, I still tell people what I am when they ask; if anything it opens an opportunity for some conversation regarding the steps to become a true PE and how far I have actually come.

I do get a bit offended when people who never took all the classes and exams proudly call themselves an "engineer" - my father-in-law is one of them. He does building maintenance and is dubbed an engineer by everyone he works with...it has to do with the "politically correct" nature of the term, it makes everyone feel better about themselves, except a registered engineer.


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## HornTootinEE (Nov 28, 2012)

My other pet peeve (besides the one in this post) is South Dakota State alum who think they have a prayer at 3:00 PM on Saturday, Dec. 1st in Fargo. 

Ok, all jokes aside... My wife's cousin calls herself an engineer. I got crabby with my sister-in-law once about their cousing saying "oh, I'm an engineer" The sister-in-law said "Well, she is only like one semester from getting that degree, she just changed her mind later" I said "so... no degree... thats like me saying I'm a Medical Dr. because I took a year of med school" She didnt' seem to find the humor....

I think the problem is the state(s) don't harp real hard on the use of the title unless it will be used "for hire" The consulting firms in ND are careful how they use the term, but other (exempt) industries are not. Same laws apply, so I'd like to see the state going and hammering on those companies for thinking they can title their positions as "engineers" when in fact they are not.


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## ee1234 (Nov 28, 2012)

This is definitely a pet peeve of mine.

One of my wife's friends and I were making small talk at a party. After I told her I am an electrical engineer, she told me she is an "Engineering Project Manager," one who is in charge of engineers at a major cellular provider company. Later when I asked her where she went to school, she admitted that she didn't have a bachelors degree.

I tried not to be rude, but I'm sure I gave her a confounded look. In my head, I was thinking, "So you're definitely NOT an engineering manager then." She went on to brag about her "demanding job duties." I was thoroughly irritated at that point and started asking her technical questions. I took several wireless communications classes in college, so I asked her a few things she should know as an engineering manager for a major wireless provider. She gave me that "dear in the headlights" look and changed the subject.

Hopefully she doesn't go around bragging about her "engineering" job anymore, but I doubt it.


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## humner (Nov 28, 2012)

a friend of mine is an Architect, from a family of Architects in NYC. We were in a corner store getting coffee when a woman neither of us knew was commenting on being an Architect (we both now live in the country with a small population). Long and short of the story, she is a "Landscape Architect". I am sure Doctors have similar gripes.


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## HornTootinEE (Nov 28, 2012)

Well, there are probably Medical Doctors that feel a Chiropractor, dentist, or optomistrist shouldn't be calling themselves Doctors either.

to ee1234: That isn't such a stretch for your wife's friend really. my last employer, we had a VP-Operations who knew nothing about operations, and of his direct reports (the one that was in my chain of command) also knew nothing about operations... neither did my boss who was supposed to be the electric operations go-to.

I think the problem with the "management" titles is that many companies and their HR lackeys don't seem to think that engineers should be supervised by engineers... They seem to think ANYONE can supervise those engineers-just manage people! I think that is actually a bigger pet peave of mine than the title. It's managers who know nothing about the area they manage.

I wouldn't expect our VP-Operations to be an "expert" in all areas-but I would expect him to be an expert in at least a few areas he was supposed to be herding... and the areas he wasn't he should have been finding experts to cover those in his direct report structure. But what do I know?


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## ee1234 (Nov 29, 2012)

HornTootinEE said:


> to ee1234: That isn't such a stretch for your wife's friend really. my last employer, we had a VP-Operations who knew nothing about operations, and of his direct reports (the one that was in my chain of command) also knew nothing about operations... neither did my boss who was supposed to be the electric operations go-to.
> 
> I think the problem with the "management" titles is that many companies and their HR lackeys don't seem to think that engineers should be supervised by engineers... They seem to think ANYONE can supervise those engineers-just manage people! I think that is actually a bigger pet peave of mine than the title. It's managers who know nothing about the area they manage.


I'm sure that is quite common. However, this woman is in her mid-twenties, with no college degree, without any management experience, and is, according to my wife, a pathological liar. Her "dear in the headlights" look told me everything I needed to know. If I had any doubts while talking to her, I would have hesitated calling her out on her BS.


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## Golden Eagle PE (Dec 2, 2012)

I am so happy I am not the only one who feels this way. I wish they would quit watering down the title of "engineer'". You either have a degree or you dont. Because those of us that worked hard to get it seem to be no different than those that get bestowed the title "Sales Engineer". What does that even mean?? If people look up the meaning "engineer" they would see how often they use it wrong in giving peopel titles.


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## Raging C2H5OH (Dec 2, 2012)

I've always kind of been partial to the 28th definition of engineer in urban dictionary.


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## ptatohed (Dec 4, 2012)

Golden Eagle said:


> I am so happy I am not the only one who feels this way. I wish they would quit watering down the title of "engineer'". You either have a degree or you dont. Because those of us that worked hard to get it seem to be no different than those that get bestowed the title "Sales Engineer". What does that even mean?? If people look up the meaning "engineer" they would see how often they use it wrong in giving peopel titles.


GE, I think what others are saying is that a degree still doesn't give you the right to call yourself an Engineer, only registration does.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Dec 4, 2012)

The law in CO only speaks to what you're able to advertise your professional services as. I've been referred to as an engineer since the first day I set foot in engineering school, but I wasn't able to offer professional engineering services until I got my license.


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## Golden Eagle PE (Dec 4, 2012)

Well, the first company (Fortune 500) that hired me right out of college gave me the title "associate engineer". So as far as they were concerned, I was an engineer whether or not I had my PE.


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## ikesdsu (Dec 5, 2012)

Dexman PE said:


> The law in CO only speaks to what you're able to advertise your professional services as. I've been referred to as an engineer since the first day I set foot in engineering school, but I wasn't able to offer professional engineering services until I got my license.


I personally am fine with calling you an engineer since you went to school for engineering and graduated with an engineering degree whether you have a stamp or not, what bothers me is when you see diesel engineer programs (diesel mechanic) or facilities engineer (college campus lead facilites guy)


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## ikesdsu (Dec 5, 2012)

HornTootinEE said:


> My other pet peeve (besides the one in this post) is South Dakota State alum who think they have a prayer at 3:00 PM on Saturday, Dec. 1st in Fargo.
> 
> Ok, all jokes aside... My wife's cousin calls herself an engineer. I got crabby with my sister-in-law once about their cousing saying "oh, I'm an engineer" The sister-in-law said "Well, she is only like one semester from getting that degree, she just changed her mind later" I said "so... no degree... thats like me saying I'm a Medical Dr. because I took a year of med school" She didnt' seem to find the humor....
> 
> I think the problem is the state(s) don't harp real hard on the use of the title unless it will be used "for hire" The consulting firms in ND are careful how they use the term, but other (exempt) industries are not. Same laws apply, so I'd like to see the state going and hammering on those companies for thinking they can title their positions as "engineers" when in fact they are not.


Wow, I am not sure what team SDSU sent to that game saturday but it certainly wasn't the football team. I guess they were with the Nebraska football team.


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## HornTootinEE (Dec 5, 2012)

Neither team sent the same team they did what a month ago. Either way, first time into the playoffs is pretty cool. Hopefully both teams can keep playing at that level.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Dec 5, 2012)

At the same time though, you can get people with creative titles. My old company called anyone not a degreed, licensed engineer a project manager or something like that. The thing is it complies with the law, but it's still implied that person is an engineer because he works for an engineering firm.


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## CivilConstruction (Dec 5, 2012)

I work on a project where the GC has a guy with the title "Field Structural Engineer". 20something years old and didn't even go to college. If i pass this Oct PE exam and add those letters after my name it still won't look as cool as this guy's faux title.


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## ee1234 (Dec 7, 2012)

CivilConstruction said:


> I work on a project where the GC has a guy with the title "Field Structural Engineer". 20something years old and didn't even go to college. If i pass this Oct PE exam and add those letters after my name it still won't look as cool as this guy's faux title.


This bothers me to no end! No degree but their title says "engineer" in it. That's why my story above is so bothersome.

I don't get bothered at all if someone with a BS in engineering wants to call themselves an engineer, PE stamp or not.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Dec 7, 2012)

The job titles don't bother me as much as the fact that people tend to work outside of their training/expertise. We have an inspector from a local municipality that has changed the design multiple times (drainage, roadway, etc) because he "prefers" something contradictory to the city standards or city-approved construction drawings. He's tried to change asphalt thickness, inlet types/sizes, storm pipe connections, reinforcing steel layouts, and many many more things. He's never been anything more than an inspector, never been to engineering school, let alone get licensed to practice engineering. The problem with all of it is the fact that the city staff (who ARE PE's) will back up the inspector's "wish list" (which are always more expensive, but it doesn't matter to them because the city isn't paying for it).

The latest issue was the subgrade prep for a surface street. The geotech report and stamped construction drawings called for a 1' rip and recompaction of the subgrade, but the inspector insisted on a 3' overex with a structural fill. The contractor built the road as shown in the city approved plans (1' rip), but now the city is refusing to accept the work because the inspector wanted a 3' overex (meanwhile, they are enjoying benefitial occupancy for said roadway).


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## CivilConstruction (Dec 7, 2012)

Yea the whole "the field inspector has final say" rule these cities have is criminal. Even city approval stamps have language that defer to that - but your stamp is on it...they'll take no responsibility for changes they force down your throat. Pick a local contractor that isn't going to piss the inspector off.......


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## Exception Collection (Dec 10, 2012)

CivilConstruction said:


> I work on a project where the GC has a guy with the title "Field Structural Engineer". 20something years old and didn't even go to college. If i pass this Oct PE exam and add those letters after my name it still won't look as cool as this guy's faux title.


In every state I know the rules of, he's violating the law. "Structural Engineer" is a legally restricted term; unless he has an *SE, *he can't use it.

Oregon restricts the usage of the term "Engineer". I have a Washington license, but not an Oregon one - and when I worked in Oregon I wasn't allowed to use the title, so my official job title was "Project Manager" rather than "Project Engineer". I wasn't even allowed to put "PE" after my initials on documents unless they were for use in WA - though I was able to put "(name), P.E. (WA) in my e-mails. I might be a bit retentive when it comes to laws and rules, though; I ran all of that by OSBEELS.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if my discussion with them is why they specifically added an exemption to the rules that allows people with out-of-state licenses to use PE as long as they clearly identify that it's out of state. I'm pretty sure the rule wasn't there when I got my license back in 2009.


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## dcarnley (Dec 11, 2012)

Really like the post and it pisses me off also because I am an EIT waiting for more PE results from the October exam. I am always having to tell people who are out my field how the process works for Engineering. Every time I tell them I am an Engineer Intern they immediately look at me as a non-professional. Then in many other cases I have people who claim they have a friend or family who is an engineer and they are nothing more but a technician, but they view that person as being higher up on the professional which is not true. As an EIT, this is how I have handle it. Currently, my business card says "Transportation Design" with "EI" right after my name. If I pass the exam, I plan on adding "Transportation/Roadway/Highway Project Engineer" and obviously "PE" after my name. If for some reason I can't pass the exam over time, I plan removing the "EI" from the business card and change my title to "Roadway Designer".


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## CivilConstruction (Dec 11, 2012)

@ Exception Collection

We only police engineers when using the term (which is why you couldn't use it in a diff state) because the penalties are set up to punish the practicing engineers. Non-engineers have no enforcement vehicle and thus are not policed.

Just like US law, you are punished worse 'if you know better' while the thugs just spend the night.


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## Exception Collection (Dec 11, 2012)

dcarnley said:


> Really like the post and it pisses me off also because I am an EIT waiting for more PE results from the October exam. I am always having to tell people who are out my field how the process works for Engineering. Every time I tell them I am an Engineer Intern they immediately look at me as a non-professional. Then in many other cases I have people who claim they have a friend or family who is an engineer and they are nothing more but a technician, but they view that person as being higher up on the professional which is not true. As an EIT, this is how I have handle it. Currently, my business card says "Transportation Design" with "EI" right after my name. If I pass the exam, I plan on adding "Transportation/Roadway/Highway Project Engineer" and obviously "PE" after my name. If for some reason I can't pass the exam over time, I plan removing the "EI" from the business card and change my title to "Roadway Designer".


Makes sense. I think that's probably why most people don't use "Engineering Intern" in their titles.



CivilConstruction said:


> @ Exception Collection
> 
> We only police engineers when using the term (which is why you couldn't use it in a diff state) because the penalties are set up to punish the practicing engineers. Non-engineers have no enforcement vehicle and thus are not policed.
> 
> Just like US law, you are punished worse 'if you know better' while the thugs just spend the night.


I know, it just seems ridiculous when you see unlicensed "Engineers" working for contractors.


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## SCarolinaNiki PE (Dec 11, 2012)

I have had many rants on this topic. It urks me to no end how people get away with it. Whenever someone uses the term loosely in titles on tv, my husband gives me one of those sideways glances to see if I'm going comment or not. He isn't in engineering, but I have set him straight one who is and who is not an Engineer.



dcarnley said:


> Really like the post and it pisses me off also because I am an EIT waiting for more PE results from the October exam. I am always having to tell people who are out my field how the process works for Engineering. Every time I tell them I am an Engineer Intern they immediately look at me as a non-professional. Then in many other cases I have people who claim they have a friend or family who is an engineer and they are nothing more but a technician, but they view that person as being higher up on the professional which is not true. As an EIT, this is how I have handle it. Currently, my business card says "Transportation Design" with "EI" right after my name. If I pass the exam, I plan on adding "Transportation/Roadway/Highway Project Engineer" and obviously "PE" after my name. If for some reason I can't pass the exam over time, I plan removing the "EI" from the business card and change my title to "Roadway Designer".


After I passed the FE and found out I would be getting new business cards, I called and talked to HR directly. I made sure that my bisness cards would retian my title of Controls Designer and that they would only be adding the EI to my name. I was not going to be using the company standard of "Engineering Intern". Unless you know the profession, it just sounds so second rate.


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## HornTootinEE (Dec 11, 2012)

SO, we all hate the use of "engineer" for non-engineers. How do we fix it? Are any of you involved at NCEES, your state boards, etc? I'm asking because I want to know-how to we as a profession take the first step to fixing this? Report all known offenders? Get on our state board to push NCEES model law harder? How do we start?


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## Dark Knight (Dec 11, 2012)

NCEES does not care. All they care about is the exam fee twice a year and they are making a ton of money on that.


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## ptatohed (Dec 12, 2012)

They are aware and they apparently do care. Did you see my Post #2?


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## CivilConstruction (Dec 12, 2012)

I heard that Microsoft tried to name a program XXX Architect but the AIA pooped on them (and they renamed it engineer....).

Maybe we need to start our own thing outside of NCEES. Architects pass the exam and become 'RA's but you never see that after their name because an organization (AIA) came about and if you join it you use their title instead of RA. They are the Architect police/activist group. If you see someone with 'RA' after their name they are an Architect but dont' pay dues to the AIA. Pretty good that your group gets so powerful that people forget about the old title.

I vote that instead of John Doe, PE we call ourselves John Doe, Jedi Knight


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## CivilConstruction (Dec 12, 2012)

Lets start by everyone sending me 10 bucks


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## fetzdog121 (Dec 16, 2012)

if anyone would care I think it would be other professional "engineers" and the state boards. Although its kinda difficult to enforce board rules on non-board members.


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## hjg7715 (Dec 17, 2012)

I would frankly be more concerned about incompetent licensed engineers (and I have crossed paths with a few) than I would be of the use of the word "engineer" in describing someone's job title who may not have the same educational or board credentials as most professional engineers. As long as they're not trying to pass themselves off as licensed engineers, I really don't have a problem with it.


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## ptatohed (Dec 20, 2012)

humner said:


> a friend of mine is an Architect, from a family of Architects in NYC. We were in a corner store getting coffee when a woman neither of us knew was commenting on being an Architect (we both now live in the country with a small population). Long and short of the story, she is a "Landscape Architect". I am sure Doctors have similar gripes.


What's wrong with landscape architecture?


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