# Master from US not Valid?



## thechosenone (Oct 15, 2012)

Hi,

See if any body from the forum can give me more guidance. I have a civil engineerinng degree from India and a Masters in Construction from onen of the top US Schools .When I applied for PE to the board, they came back saying that my Masters in Construction is not valid coz its from Architecture Dept. . Both Architecture and Civil School provides Masters in Construction? Well construction is construction.

Can anyone tell me their experience who are in the same boat?


----------



## solomonb (Oct 15, 2012)

What is the question that is trying to be resolved? The NCEES website, along with the state board explains what you need to apply for the PE examination.

If the issue is trying to use the Master's degree for part of the experience requirement, I think that you are stuck. If the Master's degree is from Architecture, it is NOT an ENGINEERING degree, although some of the same material may have been covered in the course work.

If the issue is trying to remedy possible deficiencies in academic preparation because of a foreign (non US earned) undergraduate degree, suspect that once again, you are stuck.

The more involved I get in the engineering licensing/registration process, the more I see the rationale for the NCEES rules, along with state board requirements.

Remember, the reason for state licensure is to protect the health and welfare of the populace. There are too many instances where unlicensed acts caused death.

I know that this sounds crisp--my point is that the path to licensure is straight forward. Unfortunately, if your degree/experience/work history is not clear, there becomes some real challenges. My suggestion would be to carefully follow the rules established by your state board and NCEES. Yes, you may disagree. Yes, you may have to take more course work in college to fulfill the requirements in your specific state. My experience is that it is easier to do what is being asked of you than to try and find a loop hole in the rules. The more time that you spend seeking the loop hole could be judiciously applied in fulfilling whatever deficiencies, if any, were identified in your license record.

Good luck-- this is not as difficult as many make it out to be. After all, at the end of the day, the purpose of professional engineering licensing is to protect the general health and welfare of the populace.


----------



## JoeBoone82 (Oct 16, 2012)

A friend of mine from grad school is having problems too. He received a bachelor's in engineering from India, and then recently did a Master's here in the U.S. He had to get his transcript from the school in India to send it in to state and/or NCEES to be evaluated. He also has about 20 yrs of experience. They came back and said that his bachelor's is insufficient. I've seen it, and it probably contains 25% more credit hours than my engineering degree, but the things they pointed out that it lacked would be similar to our social electives. I think it's crazy. They want him to go back to school to take classes in history, art, etc before he can take the PE? I do not see how those things would affect his ability as an engineer. In My Opinion.


----------



## thechosenone (Oct 25, 2012)

There are many state board which waives off the requirements. Basic math is taught at the High School level in many foreign countries. ( Basic Math- Calulus, intergration, Stats etc).

I see no reason how any one can do 4 years in engineering IF THEY DONOT KNOW BASIC MATH. Its impossible to do engineering if you donot know calculus, intergration, statistics etc ! So how does that matter. The State Board should assumed that the applicant does know basic math. Its just different philosophies in different countries.

Thats my view. So ppl dont be mad at my comments. But would encourage a Peacefull healthy debate here and would like to know fellow members opinion,


----------



## wilheldp_PE (Oct 25, 2012)

From what I have gathered from most people that have had their undergraduate degrees from foreign countries denied by NCEES, it has been a lack of humanities classes, not math/science/engineering. Like it or not, ABET (the engineering school accreditation board recognized by NCEES) requires a certain number of humanities credits to qualify as an accredited degree.


----------



## danderson (Oct 30, 2012)

Whether or not ABET requires it makes it no less stupid. Anybody who would hire an engineer based on whether or not he/she has taken enough history classes is not qualified to hire an engineer. Straight forward or not, it's stupid. I'm glad it's not my problem.


----------



## Capt Worley PE (Oct 30, 2012)

danderson said:


> Whether or not ABET requires it makes it no less stupid. Anybody who would hire an engineer based on whether or not he/she has taken enough history classes is not qualified to hire an engineer. Straight forward or not, it's stupid. I'm glad it's not my problem.


Nah, you've got others to worry about.


----------



## Jaylaw_PE (Nov 2, 2012)

let's face it guys, most of the schools in india are better than the schools here, haha. i say let him take it, if he can pass the test he should be good!


----------



## solomonb (Nov 5, 2012)

Well, I respectfully disagree with your observation about Indian Schools. I don't have any data to substantiate your assertion, nor, do I suspect you do either. My anecdotal evidence, from a PE who has worked in India with Indian trained engineers would suggest that your premise is falicious. Of course, I was not there, nor do I have data to substantiate your assertion. If the candidate wishes to become a registered PE in the United States, he/she must follow the rules.

Now, I am NOT a guy to follow the rules for the sake of the rules-- however, it may appear to be the case. I am a guy that is for following the rules because they have been proven, through much trial and tribulation to work.

As I cited earlier, it is far easier to comply with whatever deficiencies are identified in the candidates record than to try and fight for an exception. I know, I tried for an exception and found that it was a hell of a lot easier to take the test and be done with it than fight. However, fight I did!!!!!!!! The time expended in trying to find a loophole is better spent doing what is required. After all, time spent foolishly can never be recovered.


----------



## wilheldp_PE (Nov 5, 2012)

solomonb said:


> Well, I respectfully disagree with your observation about Indian Schools. I don't have any data to substantiate your assertion, nor, do I suspect you do either. My anecdotal evidence, from a PE who has worked in India with Indian trained engineers would suggest that your premise is falicious. Of course, I was not there, nor do I have data to substantiate your assertion. If the candidate wishes to become a registered PE in the United States, he/she must follow the rules.
> 
> Now, I am NOT a guy to follow the rules for the sake of the rules-- however, it may appear to be the case. I am a guy that is for following the rules because they have been proven, through much trial and tribulation to work.
> 
> As I cited earlier, it is far easier to comply with whatever deficiencies are identified in the candidates record than to try and fight for an exception. I know, I tried for an exception and found that it was a hell of a lot easier to take the test and be done with it than fight. However, fight I did!!!!!!!! The time expended in trying to find a loophole is better spent doing what is required. After all, time spent foolishly can never be recovered.


Did you eat a thesaurus and crap out that post? I don't disagree with your points, but your language is needlessly flowery.


----------



## solomonb (Nov 5, 2012)

Trying to help you enhance (improve) your writing skills!!!!!


----------



## solomonb (Nov 5, 2012)

Here is an article that is on the web that supports what I stated above:

http://www.eetimes.c...India--Don-t-be

This was an article in the Wall Street Journal that addresses very similiar points

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703515504576142092863219826.html


----------



## agni (Nov 5, 2012)

The discussion is about US masters not being valid for many states administering the licensing process and not Indian schools vs. US schools. The school comparison would be a very childish thing to do.

I do not understand why state boards like FL make it exteremely hard for someone with a foreign undergraduate degree take the test. They typically require three or more humanities courses to be completed as pre-requisites just to apply to sit for the PE even when the candidate has the experience and qualification. Somehow the US masters is viewed as a liability whereas most people I know that has a foreign undergrad took GRE, TOEFL, submitted transcripts, got recommendation letters from their professors and wrote statement of purpose just to apply for the US Masters program. Furthermore, they received their masters in US just like anyone would, foreign or local, by completing the requisite coursework and thesis (most cases). They also joined the workforce the same way anyone would and would go through the same challenges of an engineering job. So, if a person has demonstrated all these abilities and more, why would they need to take humanities courses as a prequisitve to sit for the P.E.? What purpose does it really serve? Is it just to keep an exclusive engineering club exclusive based on not engineering requirements but humanities? It seems very absurd to me.


----------



## willsee (Nov 6, 2012)

For starters most Master ofEngineering degrees are not ABET accredited.


----------



## agni (Nov 6, 2012)

@Willsee, ABET is technical and engineering accredition and when the state board cites so called deficiencies it is always humanities related. Not engineering, science or math. The university I got my masters from is ABET accredited for the BS program and the same department and faculty oversee the masters and PhD program. Often times, the masters students are TA's for the BS students.

If a university decides that a candidate is good enough to pursue masters program under the same umbrella that they graduate BS students from, how are the states determining deficiencies? Its like the state showing the middle finger to the universitities and saying their screening procedures to admit advanced degree students is not adequate.


----------



## wilheldp_PE (Nov 6, 2012)

agni said:


> @Willsee, ABET is technical and engineering accredition and when the state board cites so called deficiencies it is always humanities related. Not engineering, science or math.


It doesn't matter that the state board cites the humanities deficiencies because those deficiencies are mandated by ABET. You are required to have a certain number of humanities credits per ABET, not the NCEES. ABET is an engineering/technical accreditation firm, but they like people getting well-rounded educations, not just straight math and science. If you don't like it, feel free to complain about it some more. They aren't going to change it.


----------



## rrui00 (Dec 25, 2012)

Most of indian universities are better than US... That is why so many Americans and Europeans go to study there. LOL.


----------



## palvarez83 (Jan 10, 2013)

What state are you in? That is important. I ran into a similar issue in Califonia when I applied for Mechanical and now again that I'm applying for Civil.

In California you need 6 years of qualifying experience total if you have an EIT/FE. They award 4 years for an ABET accredited bachelor's and 1 year for an ABET accredited bachelor's. So you need 1 year minimum. When one applies for multiplie licenses, you are able to re-use your education credits toward the 6 year requirement, but not so with work experience (makes sense).

So what is the problem? Well ABET simply doesn't acredit master's degrees. So, as you can see that is quiet the contridiction. When I brought that up when I was applying for mechanical, the reviewer was shocked that no master's degrees are accredited. (Believe me, I checked the database). So eventually they got back to me saying that what they do is check the abet database. If your university has an ABET accredited bachelor's program, then the master's program (of that same name) will also count for your credit. So if say Civil Engineering, BS is accerdited, then Civil Engineer MS is automatically granted the extra year. In my case my Masters was an MS in "Engineering, (Engineering Management)". Because said program was not offered for undergrads I was SOL and had to wait another year.

Now the California board acutally wrote that clarification into their board rules to make it official. Also, they will grant 5 years to any such master's degree that meets quailifications under that ABET "loop hole". This will help people that for exam studied physics, General Engineering ect (non-ABET accredited engineering programs) as undergradutes and then chose to get an engineering degree.

Again it really matters what state you're in.


----------



## willsee (Jan 11, 2013)

palvarez83 said:


> What state are you in? That is important. I ran into a similar issue in Califonia when I applied for Mechanical and now again that I'm applying for Civil.
> 
> In California you need 6 years of qualifying experience total if you have an EIT/FE. They award 4 years for an ABET accredited bachelor's and 1 year for an ABET accredited bachelor's. So you need 1 year minimum. When one applies for multiplie licenses, you are able to re-use your education credits toward the 6 year requirement, but not so with work experience (makes sense).
> 
> ...


My Master of Engineering is accredited from University of Louisville, been that way since 1936. In 2008 the BS degree became accredited.


----------



## mkt1 (Jan 11, 2013)

willsee said:


> My Master of Engineering is accredited from University of Louisville, been that way since 1936. In 2008 the BS degree became accredited.


According to this http://main.abet.org/aps/Accreditedprogramsearch.aspx

the University of Louisville is the only university in the US to have an ABET Accredited master's program in Civil Engineering. That's fascinating.


----------



## deafodupe (Feb 9, 2013)

One of my co-workers had a masters from Marquette and a BS in civil engineering from Nepal. He tried to sit for Florida PE but they rejected his application because of humanities courses that didn't fill in, so he had to take it in Houston, Texas. He said most of the states accept masters from US as long as it is in the engineering department. He then took community college courses to meet the humanities requirement to get his PE in Florida. Some states might be really wacky - ABET credited university or not and also foreign universities.


----------



## tim1981 (Feb 10, 2013)

Different states do it differently. Most master's degrees are not ABET accredited, so some states use the criteria that the master's degree must be from a school whose undergraduate engineering program in the same discipline is accredited. You may also have to apply for the "ABET equivalent" route where they count how many credits you had in each category (graduate or undergraduate) and see if what you have is substantially equivalent to an ABET engineering degree. There's also an experience-only route for some states. If you have 6 years experience, you qualify to sit for the exam in California even if you don't have any college degree.

Some state laws about this are just stupid. For example, if you have your BS in Physics and a Master's in Engineering, some states will still turn you down. There's no reason for a working professional with his/her master's degree to go backwards and take classes with a bunch of kids just to satisfy their stupid requirements. I don't think the boards really expects anyone to do that, they just want to deny enough people to keep the credential exclusive, without regard to who they're accepting or denying.

That said, the laws vary from state to state enough that I think most people getting screwed by their own state can probably find another state that will let them take the test. The legal power of the PE has nothing to do with where you live or work, it applies to projects located in that state, so having an out of state PE is no more invalid than having an in state PE while working on a project in another state (which is common). Also, I don't know from experience but I would think that the boards would be more willing to consider unusual circumstances with regard to comity than they would for accepting someone to take the exam.

Therefore, if possible, I recommend finding a state where you qualify without question, then applying to your home state for comity/reciprocity when you think you qualify for their requirements. That's what I'm doing. I have my BS in Math and 6 years experience, which qualifies me to sit for the exam this April in Virginia. Once I finish my Master's in Mechanical Engineering I will apply for comity/reciprocity in my home state, making the argument that my education is ABET equivalent.


----------



## ssewell (Mar 8, 2013)

Have you taken and passed the EIT test as a pre-requisite? You might have a case if they allowed you to take that. If you haven't taken it, then you shouldn't be applying for the PE in the first place. The pre-requiaites are:

An engineering degree from an accredited School, technical schools and associates do not qualify.

Take and pass the EIT

Four years of progressive experience

Application acceptance from the board

Take the test

Got to have all of them


----------

