# Parents, don't let your kids grow up to be engineers!



## Exengineer (Jun 19, 2011)

Between outsourcing and off-shoring of many engineering functions, stagnant pay, decline of manufacturing in North America, poor opportunities for advancement, rapid obsolescence, hyper-extreme competition and rampant age discrimination, who would want their kids to waste four years on an education they may not use? There are two year diploma programs now that will pay better than what many engineers make. The golden age of engineering is over and has been for several decades. It will never be as good as it once was and Grade 12 students should not be deceived by university administrators and high school guidance counselors who don't know the whole story.

http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/arti...9-engineer.html


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## cableguy (Jun 19, 2011)

The 2 1/2 year old article is full of crap, and I'd be extremely proud if my kids grew up to be engineers. Not everyone can cut it.


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 19, 2011)

BS. We cannot meet the demand for senior talent especially with upcoming retirement. All graduates including foreigners, cannot fill the void.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 19, 2011)

cableguy said:


> The 2 1/2 year old article is full of crap, and I'd be extremely proud if my kids grew up to be engineers. Not everyone can cut it.


You don't understand. Exengineer was the greatest engineer on the planet, but got screwed by the system. Now, he is convinced that engineers are lower than fry cooks at the local McDonald's. Yet he still feels the need to troll these forums and bitch about the system every chance he gets.


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## Exengineer (Jun 19, 2011)

Unfortunately you will find that the harshest critics of engineering careers are engineers themselves because they have gone through the entire system and have seen and experienced the propaganda vs. the reality. Never said I was the world's greatest engineer, in fact that can't be measured objectively, only subjectively based on who happens to be your current supervisor. As for being screwed by the system, I have experienced nothing worse than what thousands of other engineers have experienced so far. I call it reality, not being screwed. It may not be the reality experienced by all engineers but it was for me. So I am just relating the truth as I see it.


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## cableguy (Jun 19, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> cableguy said:
> 
> 
> > The 2 1/2 year old article is full of crap, and I'd be extremely proud if my kids grew up to be engineers. Not everyone can cut it.
> ...


Yes, I know, I've seen his posts before. Not everyone can cut it. Gloom, despair, and agony on me. Deep dark depression, excessive misery. If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all.... Gloom, despair, and agony on me.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 20, 2011)

cableguy said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
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> > cableguy said:
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He definitely is a glass half empty sort.

Liked the Hee Haw reference.


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## Road Guy (Jun 20, 2011)

it would be nice if states would stop giving foreign degree credit though..


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 20, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> it would be nice if states would stop giving foreign degree credit though..



Agreed. At Texas Tech we had to pay foreign student fees as a part of our tuition. Complete horse sh!t.


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## Master slacker (Jun 20, 2011)

douche nozzle


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## MGX (Jun 20, 2011)

Why so emo?


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 20, 2011)

SuperAlpha said:


> Road Guy said:
> 
> 
> > it would be nice if states would stop giving foreign degree credit though..
> ...


Here at USC, they'd actually wave requirements (such as the required time working in industry) in some of the doctoral program for forign students. More BS.


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## willsee (Jun 20, 2011)

Engineering has been pretty good to me so far

And everyone I've worked with


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## picusld (Jun 20, 2011)

It sure could have been worse for me...

Also could have been better, but I think that the good has outweighed the bad.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 22, 2011)

Exengineer said:


> Between outsourcing and off-shoring of many engineering functions, stagnant pay, decline of manufacturing in North America, poor opportunities for advancement, rapid obsolescence, hyper-extreme competition and rampant age discrimination, who would want their kids to waste four years on an education they may not use? There are two year diploma programs now that will pay better than what many engineers make. The golden age of engineering is over and has been for several decades. It will never be as good as it once was and Grade 12 students should not be deceived by university administrators and high school guidance counselors who don't know the whole story.
> http://money.usnews.com/money/careers/arti...9-engineer.html


HUH?? Que? Como?

There are not enough engineers, we will always need engineers, there are not enough minority/women in engineering and all I do is talk to my son and daughter about becoming engineers so they can take over the M/WBE firm I have started...

All the salary polls show that engineers have the highest entry level pay...and not to toot my own horn but in 8 years I've gone from 40K/year to very nearly six figures.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree.


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## MGX (Jun 22, 2011)

How many minorities and/or women are enough? Who decides and how?


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## Kephart P.E. (Jun 22, 2011)

Are there jobs that pay more money?

Sure, but you can also be canned and never find work again.

Engineering has been pretty good to me as well, I have averaged 6% annual pay increases over the last 8 years.

If I was laid off from my current job with my experience and License I doubt I would be out of work for more than a couple of weeks or less.

I set my own schedule for the most part -and most importantly: *I have had continuous employment during one of the worst economic downturns in decades.... all due to being an engineer*


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jun 22, 2011)

I was talking with one of the senior consultants, and he reminded me that within the next 5-10 years we will see a severe spike in open jobs (not just engineering) to accomodate all of the retiring baby boomers. I fear we won't have enough mid-level engineers to step up to fill those senior positions let alone provide enough support staff (entry &amp; newly promoted mid-levels). Now would actually be the best time to be a graduating high-schooler looking to get into college, because alot of positions will be available as they get their BS and MS degrees...


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## XOXOXO (Jun 22, 2011)

MGX said:


> How many minorities and/or women are enough? Who decides and how?


When I stop walking into a room with 200 male engineers and like, 10 women...then it will be enough. (Would think you guys would want to see more women at these networking functions as well). I'll be personally happy when the numbers are 25-50%...right now, the numbers are nowhere near that.

And the numbers are worse for certain "groups."

I think the government concurs...hence the legislation and incentives.

There are movements everywhere to get young (middle and high school) girls interested in studying engineering.

Share your profession with your daughters...engineeryourlife.org and engineergirl.org

A diverse engineering industry is an innovative one.


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## CbusPaul (Jun 23, 2011)

I agree with you that a diverse engineering industry is an innovative one. However, why is it the government's job to incentivize minorities and women to get involved in engineering?


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## csb (Jun 23, 2011)

I think we've reached a point where the girls that want to go into engineering are able and willing to do so. Not once growing up did anyone tell me what I could or could not be. I personally don't care if I'm the only woman in the room or if there's only 10% of us at a conference.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 23, 2011)

^same


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## mizzoueng (Jun 23, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> Would think you guys would want to see more women at these networking functions as well


I've been to a few ASME conferences, and the mix is pretty good. Not 50/50, but not 90/10 either. Also, I'm not sure what you are saying here. Are women at networking functions of ill-repute? I work on a job site right now with 5 women, I treat them just like the men on the site and I don't look at them differently. I could care less if anyone is "easy on the eyes", I look at performance and thats it.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 23, 2011)

mizzoueng said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > Would think you guys would want to see more women at these networking functions as well
> ...


That's great. Wish there were more like you around.

I'm in New York and the ratio is not 50/50, nowhere near that. And I'm talking specifically about Civil. Guess saying "engineering" was too broad...in construction and civil, we are under represented. Period.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 23, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> I agree with you that a diverse engineering industry is an innovative one. However, why is it the government's job to incentivize minorities and women to get involved in engineering?


I don't really know WHY it is the government's job, I'm just glad they are doing something.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 23, 2011)

csb said:


> I think we've reached a point where the girls that want to go into engineering are able and willing to do so. Not once growing up did anyone tell me what I could or could not be. I personally don't care if I'm the only woman in the room or if there's only 10% of us at a conference.


I'm glad you had a good experience. It is refreshing to hear. I know I did not, and I also know five women that immediately come to mind that have not. Again, specific to my location and industry. Again, I'm here to say that there are plenty of opportunities in engineering, but this is not being conveyed to certain, shall we say "groups" for lack of a better word.

That's not an assumption, it is a fact.

I get the whole "pull yourself up by the bootstraps" because I did it.

I DO care that I'm the only woman in the room. I DO care about the numbers.

You should check out the GWIC conference they hold in New York City. I think you'd be amazed at some of the statistics. Floored even.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 23, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> mizzoueng said:
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> 
> > POed Mommy said:
> ...


When i was in school back in the eighties, there were a lot more women in civil engineering than any other branch at my school. I'd say it was probably 33% women compared to maybe 10% in mechanical.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 23, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> POed Mommy said:
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> > mizzoueng said:
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Weird. I personally don't know about the 80's, but I was in college in the 90's and that was not the case (went to school in PA).

My boss went to school in the 80's (upstate NY) and that was not the case...


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## csb (Jun 23, 2011)

Same here. Civil Engineering was only outdone by ArchE in terms of women in the program. We had at least 25% representation, if not more.

And, FWIW, I'm a civil engineer working in construction. I'm kinda amazed that the east coast is that closed minded to women in engineering/construction.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 23, 2011)

we had closer to a 50/50 spilt in Chemical.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 23, 2011)

csb said:


> Same here. Civil Engineering was only outdone by ArchE in terms of women in the program. We had at least 25% representation, if not more.
> And, FWIW, I'm a civil engineer working in construction. I'm kinda amazed that the east coast is that closed minded to women in engineering/construction.


It is shocking...isn't it!

I think NYC is still suffering from Wall Street Syndrome.

I'm telling you...you simply must (as a CE) check out the conference in 2012. It is top notch, and very informative


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## Slugger926 (Jun 23, 2011)

For some reason, where I graduated has a higher female to male ratio in women engineers in BioSystems Engineering (Agriculture/Enviromental/Bio Processing).


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## SuperAlpha (Jun 23, 2011)

Slugger926 said:


> For some reason, where I graduated has a higher female to male ratio in women engineers in BioSystems Engineering (Agriculture/Enviromental/Bio Processing).


TWU?


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## Road Guy (Jun 23, 2011)

my boss is a woman if that makes anyone want to hold hands and sing kumbya?


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## snickerd3 (Jun 23, 2011)

so thats how you spell it then?!


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## Slugger926 (Jun 23, 2011)

SuperAlpha said:


> Slugger926 said:
> 
> 
> > For some reason, where I graduated has a higher female to male ratio in women engineers in BioSystems Engineering (Agriculture/Enviromental/Bio Processing).
> ...


Ok State University


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## cdcengineer (Jun 23, 2011)

Engineering has been very very good to me. If it was not for engineering, I would not be in engineering today.

Chico Escuela


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## Guest (Jun 23, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> MGX said:
> 
> 
> > How many minorities and/or women are enough? Who decides and how?
> ...


For the record I support bringing more women into engineering. 

JR


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## IlPadrino (Jun 23, 2011)

There are plenty of women in civil engineering on the East Coast. Or at least, I can say with lots of certainty that the DC area has plenty of female civils employed in the construction field.

I don't understand the "national interest" to increase any diversity group in a field that is already clearly open to those that want it. So long as there is opportunity, I don't think the government should get involved in a balancing act. Let private industry decide the value of diversity and pursue it as they see fit.

Frankly, we'll all be better with an environment where we don't count diversity, we don't see diversity, we just *are* diverse. And to be clear, the diversity that exists inside people is a hell of a lot more important than the diversity you can see on the outside.


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## cdcengineer (Jun 23, 2011)

I always support bringing more women to anything.


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## blybrook PE (Jun 23, 2011)

I work with the following female engineering co-workers

2 Structural EIT's;

EE's: 1 EIT, 1 PE;

ME's: 2 EIT's;

Civil: 1 EIT (previously 2), 1 PE (department head)

I know of 20 other female EIT's or PE's in Fairbanks, so thats better than none


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## Road Guy (Jun 24, 2011)

This may relate Im not sure, but it pissed me off at the time..

My daughter struggled in 4th grade math this year, no F's or anything but she just didnt take to it as easy as other subjects. Her teacher was a good teacher, but she was very strict, didnt put up with any crap, all in all we were pleased, but she was almost a little too strict that for my daughter the day of school was long and she perceived the teacher as being someone she would never please so I think she almost wrote her off midway through the school year.

so anyways.. we wanted to sign up both my oldest son &amp; daugther for a week long science / math camp at Ga Tech they have where they do some "make math / science fun" launch rockets, do experiments, etc, etc,

We thought it might make math a little more fun for her.

But to get accepted to the camp yuo had to send in a report card and a recommendation from your teacher... so we resquested that and sent it in..

about 2 weeks into summer my son gets accepted and my daughter gets a dear john letter that basically said her teacher wrote in her evaluation that my daughter basically sucked at math and wouldnt be able to cut this camp (9 year olds here..))

I was furious and went to the school to bitch at the teacher for sandbagging her, of course it was summer so she wasnt there, I had to send her a nasty email.. But my point to her was that we thought the GA Tech camp might make her more interested in math / science thus making it something whe would do better at in school the following years...

so there you have it women sandbagging little girls.....


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## csb (Jun 24, 2011)

I had a female math teacher tell me to give up on math...when she was the reason we weren't learning anything. I'm so glad my calculus teacher saw that and gave me a chance.


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## envirotex (Jun 24, 2011)

The current undergraduate enrollment in the engineering school from which I earned my degree is 78% men and 22% women.

When I started engineering school, the dean at the time told the women at orientation to look around at the women in the room, and then said "The majority of you won't be here at graduation..." I took it as a challenge, and I like to think that was the intent of the remark...


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## roadwreck (Jun 24, 2011)

^^

I got a similar speech at freshman orientation, but it wasn't directed towards female students. It was directed to all students.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 24, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> ^^I got a similar speech at freshman orientation, but it wasn't directed towards female students. It was directed to all students.


Me too. We had about a 60% graduation rate.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 24, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> This may relate Im not sure, but it pissed me off at the time..
> My daughter struggled in 4th grade math this year, no F's or anything but she just didnt take to it as easy as other subjects. Her teacher was a good teacher, but she was very strict, didnt put up with any crap, all in all we were pleased, but she was almost a little too strict that for my daughter the day of school was long and she perceived the teacher as being someone she would never please so I think she almost wrote her off midway through the school year.
> 
> so anyways.. we wanted to sign up both my oldest son &amp; daugther for a week long science / math camp at Ga Tech they have where they do some "make math / science fun" launch rockets, do experiments, etc, etc,
> ...


Yes, there are hateful people in all walks of life. I had a teacher ask me if English was the primary language spoken at home. Um, my daughter only knows English, and my spanish sucks. Interesting...sorry to hear your little girl had to deal with a biatch at such a young age. They are definitely out there!


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## momech (Jun 24, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> roadwreck said:
> 
> 
> > ^^I got a similar speech at freshman orientation, but it wasn't directed towards female students. It was directed to all students.
> ...


Ditto.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jun 24, 2011)

momech said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
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> 
> > roadwreck said:
> ...


We had a similar one except it was given during the first day of Organic Chemistry (first semester sophmore year) and it was addressed to the Chemical Engineering majors. Professor said that the department couldn't handle the amount of students enrolled into the program and that this particular class was going to be used to "weed out" about 40%. I lasted the semester, then switched to Civil engineering for the spring.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 24, 2011)

need to chage you hat dude


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jun 24, 2011)

Mine hasn't been sold that I know of.


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## envirotex (Jun 24, 2011)

On the topic of letting my kids grow up to be engineers, I have two boys, and the older one (who is 15) has expressed an interest in engineering, and I am encouraging it. He's good in science and math; he loves to take things apart, and put things back together to see how they work, and he has since he was little. He's very personable, has a good handshake, and plays golf passably well...whether or not you excel is more than just your education in school...

...and since the field of engineering is always evolving and new areas of expertise are always needed, I don't think that he'll have any problems getting a job if that's the career path that he chooses.


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## Dleg (Jun 24, 2011)

There were very few women in the engineering college I went to in the 80s (Colorado State). And very few in the first field I went into (oil field). In government, the ratio is fairly high - maybe 30% or so. I think it really depends on the field, and I am not exactly sure why. Maybe it's because it's easier for women to find an engineering job in the government. Or maybe it's that, AND that engineering jobs in the government are "cushier". I think people are just like water. If you create a path of least resistance, they will go there. If government jobs are easier to get due to preferences, etc., and government jobs are at the same time "cushier", then of course you are going to find a lot more women in that field than in others, like the oil field or civil, where jobs might not be as cushy. I doubt that this has anything to do with capability. It's just a market thing. If you want more women engineers in the "tougher" fields, you need to eliminate the artificial incentives in the government jobs, etc.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 24, 2011)

Dleg said:


> There were very few women in the engineering college I went to in the 80s (Colorado State). And very few in the first field I went into (oil field). In government, the ratio is fairly high - maybe 30% or so. I think it really depends on the field, and I am not exactly sure why. Maybe it's because it's easier for women to find an engineering job in the government. Or maybe it's that, AND that engineering jobs in the government are "cushier". I think people are just like water. If you create a path of least resistance, they will go there. If government jobs are easier to get due to preferences, etc., and government jobs are at the same time "cushier", then of course you are going to find a lot more women in that field than in others, like the oil field or civil, where jobs might not be as cushy. I doubt that this has anything to do with capability. It's just a market thing. If you want more women engineers in the "tougher" fields, you need to eliminate the artificial incentives in the government jobs, etc.


I am totally loving all the different opinions/insight/arguments presented here...loving the rant room right now...

Gotta thank that guy that started this...totally hijacked his rant but still 

I don't know about the cushy comment, but this is the US of A so all is fair...true I hated lugging that damn concrete air meter around and getting concrete splattered on my face...


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## Slugger926 (Jun 25, 2011)

wilheldp_PE said:


> roadwreck said:
> 
> 
> > ^^I got a similar speech at freshman orientation, but it wasn't directed towards female students. It was directed to all students.
> ...


In my field, we had a 10% graduation rate. I blame it on trying to be an expert in too many areas at once.


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## Guest (Jun 25, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> I am totally loving all the different opinions/insight/arguments presented here...loving the rant room right now...


That's why it's here and we hope you participate more often. 



POed Mommy said:


> Gotta thank that guy that started this...totally hijacked his rant but still


It wouldn't be EB.com without an oft-hijacked thread that eventually ends ... somewhere.



POed Mommy said:


> I don't know about the cushy comment, but this is the US of A so all is fair...true I hated lugging that damn concrete air meter around and getting concrete splattered on my face...


That actually sounds like a great job ... just sayin' ... oking:

JR


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## cement (Jun 25, 2011)

my kid is just finishing his ME degree and he loves it. he does interesting work and will make a good living.


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## Dleg (Jun 26, 2011)

Nice job on not taking the bait, POed Mommy. I only partly believe what I said. But there is a grain of truth to it. It's a simple fact of life that respect is earned, not granted. Engineers need to spend time in the difficult, entry level field jobs if they want to lay the foundation for future success and respect. It sounds like you have - good for you. If affirmative action leap-frogs people into management or even business ownership too soon, then it is doing those people a disservice, in my opinion.

Back to the original subject. I have no regrets on having chosen engineering as a career. I'm now on my fourth major engineering career, after 20 years, and it's been a great choice as a career, I would say. There will always be a need for engineers, and in particular, engineers who know how to work and to provide solutions. Let's face it, 95% of the population has no idea what we do. For all they know, it's magic. They will always need us. Compensation is not as good as being a doctor or a lawyer, but that's the market, and I wouldn't be a doctor or a lawyer even if I could. Those are lousy jobs.


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## csb (Jun 27, 2011)

College for me was lugging around an air-meter. Did you find that you struggled being the only woman back then? Because I found it often worked to my advantage.


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## envirotex (Jun 27, 2011)

csb said:


> College for me was lugging around an air-meter. Did you find that you struggled being the only woman back then? Because I found it often worked to my advantage.



Agreed. Especially in the smaller upper division classes. Plus, I was older than the average co-ed by the time I got around to engineering school, so I wasn't intimidated by the professors.


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## csb (Jun 27, 2011)

I found that the females were often the smartest people in class, so the professors gravitated towards them. Tau Beta Pi had a lot of female engineers in it...a disproportionate amount compared to enrollment figures. (Myself definitely not included in that group!)


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## roadwreck (Jun 27, 2011)

csb said:


> I found that the females were often the smartest people in class...


Of course women are smarter, just ask my wife.


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## csb (Jun 27, 2011)

Well, that goes without saying 

I think what may be a more appropriate statement was that the few women that were in class were an incredibly devoted group, who really put a lot of effort into their studies.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 27, 2011)

Yeah, the women in our group usually did a lot better, gradewise, than the guys.


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## Flyer_PE (Jun 27, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Yeah, the women in our group usually did a lot better, gradewise, than the guys.



Same here. My observation is that, as a group, they had better study discipline than the guys did. In my case, working on my Camaro was much more entertaining that studying for the next Fields and Waves exam.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 28, 2011)

Interesting article West Coast vs. East Coast...

"Wish they all could be California GGGIIIIIRRRLLLLLSSSS...."

Never been. May have to take a trip.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/business...ml?pagewanted=1


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## maryannette (Jun 29, 2011)

Just had time to read this thread. Very interesting. I've been in Engineering for 30 years and it has changed a lot for women. I have been the victim of many textbook examples of discrimination and wanted to kick myself in the butt many times for not being a nurse or teacher like I was "supposed" to be. My high school counselor actually told me that girls didn't go into Engineering, so I started in Computer Science and changed my major after a year. All in all, I have enjoyed my career and enjoy it as much now as ever. My daughter is halfway through college. She should graduate in 2 years with a BS in ME and possibly a minor in another discipline. It is obvious that her destiny is to be an engineer. It makes her happy and she is thriving at a student intern job this summer. It takes generations for cultural change to happen. I'm just glad that I'm seeing change. And, maybe the incentives are unfair and unnecessary, but sometimes it takes that to get a fair playing field.


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## csb (Jun 29, 2011)

I am very thankful for women like Mary, who had a really rough time of things and weren't encouraged. She lived through true discrimination and prospered, which made it so easy for me to be an engineer today. Thank you, Mary


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## maryannette (Jun 29, 2011)




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## XOXOXO (Jun 29, 2011)

Thank you everyone for all of the responses...now I have a pdf to share from catalyst.org that a wonderful, successful mentor of mine was kind enough to share. Hope all of my collegues on EB will take the time to read this...

PO-ed


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## XOXOXO (Jun 29, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> Thank you everyone for all of the responses...now I have a pdf to share from catalyst.org that a wonderful, successful mentor of mine was kind enough to share. Hope all of my collegues on EB will take the time to read this...
> PO-ed


With file uploaded this time


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## Ble_PE (Jun 29, 2011)

I could have saved that guy a lot of writing.

How to engage men: food &amp; sex. The End. :Banane35: :bananadoggywow:


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## Road Guy (Jun 29, 2011)

is it wrong to stop reading at the hyphenated name?


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## MA_PE (Jun 29, 2011)

gender initiatives sounds pretty hot. The article needs pictures of girls in swimsuits and beer ads if they expect guys to read it.


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## momech (Jun 29, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> is it wrong to stop reading at the hyphenated name?


Didn't get that far.


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## XOXOXO (Jun 29, 2011)

Incorrigible!

My dad used to say if he were a woman, he'd walk around with a mattress strapped to his back.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 30, 2011)

momech said:


> Road Guy said:
> 
> 
> > is it wrong to stop reading at the hyphenated name?
> ...


Me either. That first page sent me into an epileptic seizure. Then, after I found out there were no women in bikini pics, I lost all interest.


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## Master slacker (Jun 30, 2011)

I breezed through it. But, if it's about the woman initiative, where's the picture of the clean kitchen? Or dinner?


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## roadwreck (Jun 30, 2011)

^^ :laugh:

My favorite line:



> ...remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.


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## Ble_PE (Jun 30, 2011)




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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jun 30, 2011)

Don't attempt to engage me...the game is on.


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## csb (Jun 30, 2011)

Getting back to the original article, if not the original topic, I found this sentence in the document absolutely insulting:



> To accelerate change, we need to stop treating gender as if it were just a woman’s burden.


Since when is my gender a burden?! What kind of mindset is that? Good gosh.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jun 30, 2011)

Mine's a bit of a burden to carry around everywhere I go...if you get what I mean.


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## Master slacker (Jun 30, 2011)

I thought the original topic involved exengineer being off his rocker


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## maryannette (Jun 30, 2011)

I don't know whether to :sniff: or uke: !


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## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

Master slacker said:


> I breezed through it. But, if it's about the woman initiative, where's the picture of the clean kitchen? Or dinner?


There's an entire book on the history of menstruation. And yes, I had to bring it there.

Anywho...the book has all these flippin hysterical articles from before the time pilots and teachers were allowed to smoke at work...

Great stuff.

Happy 4th!! I'm hitting the nude beach!


----------



## Ble_PE (Jun 30, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> Master slacker said:
> 
> 
> > I breezed through it. But, if it's about the woman initiative, where's the picture of the clean kitchen? Or dinner?
> ...


Ok, you know it's going to be asked: PICS?


----------



## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

There are rules of etiquette...I'm afraid pics are not allowed.

Aren't I supposed to be cooking or some$#it?


----------



## willsee (Jun 30, 2011)

when did women get on the internet

what is this


----------



## Master slacker (Jun 30, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> There are rules of etiquette...I'm afraid pics are not allowed.
> Aren't I supposed to be cooking or some$#it?


1) Edit each pic by putting a black bar across your eyes.

2) Yes.


----------



## RIP - VTEnviro (Jun 30, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> There are rules of etiquette...I'm afraid pics are not allowed.


rlyflag:


----------



## RIP - VTEnviro (Jun 30, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> Happy 4th!! I'm hitting the nude beach!


And you wonder why no guy will take you seriously.

Hope you don't get sand anywhere uncomfortable.


----------



## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

VTEnviro said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > Happy 4th!! I'm hitting the nude beach!
> ...


Who said men don't take me seriously?

Nope...never said that.

They especially take me seriously when I'm naked.

That said, my behind is usually in a comfy beach chair or frolicking in the ocean...no sand accidents whatsoever.

I gotta find that vid of the dancing bear to counter the vid of the gal jiggling her jugs...I know I have it somewhere...a bit more X rated but just as objectifying...I love objectifying men!


----------



## Kephart P.E. (Jun 30, 2011)

Dexman PE said:


> I was talking with one of the senior consultants, and he reminded me that within the next 5-10 years we will see a severe spike in open jobs (not just engineering) to accomodate all of the retiring baby boomers. I fear we won't have enough mid-level engineers to step up to fill those senior positions let alone provide enough support staff (entry &amp; newly promoted mid-levels). Now would actually be the best time to be a graduating high-schooler looking to get into college, because alot of positions will be available as they get their BS and MS degrees...


For reference I am 36 and in nearly every single meeting I attend with clients and contractors, I am very typically the youngest guy in the room. And out of the senior level customer contacts I'd say 80% of those are 55+. So I expect a huge amount of turnover in the coming decade.

But not as much as some people think. I believe many engineers/managers will stay in the workforce in some degree into their late 60's.

We have some consultants that work for us 4-6 months out of the year for example.


----------



## Kephart P.E. (Jun 30, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > mizzoueng said:
> ...


When I was there in the very late 90's it was the same sort of break down. But CEM (Const. Engr. Mgmt) was pulling lots of women, so maybe that is why there wasn't much increase in female ME's


----------



## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

Kephart P.E. said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > I was talking with one of the senior consultants, and he reminded me that within the next 5-10 years we will see a severe spike in open jobs (not just engineering) to accomodate all of the retiring baby boomers. I fear we won't have enough mid-level engineers to step up to fill those senior positions let alone provide enough support staff (entry &amp; newly promoted mid-levels). Now would actually be the best time to be a graduating high-schooler looking to get into college, because alot of positions will be available as they get their BS and MS degrees...
> ...


Good point.

I know a gentleman who finally retired from bridge engineering in his 90's. They flew his family in for his retirement party.


----------



## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

VTEnviro said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > There are rules of etiquette...I'm afraid pics are not allowed.
> ...


That's gonna hurt in the morning...


----------



## PE-ness (Jun 30, 2011)

^That's what the girls always say to me....


----------



## PE-ness (Jun 30, 2011)

VTEnviro said:


> Mine's a bit of a burden to carry around everywhere I go...if you get what I mean.


Are we related? I went to the doc recently for knee problems. I'd been having a lot of knee pain and bruising. The bruises were always shaped like an upside-down mushroom.

I have no idea what could be wrong.


----------



## PE-ness (Jun 30, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> Incorrigible!
> My dad used to say if he were a woman, he'd walk around with a mattress strapped to his back.


If I were a woman, I'd never leave the house.

If I were a giant penis, I'd never leave the house, either.

I never leave the house.


----------



## testee (Jun 30, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> Happy 4th!! I'm hitting the nude beach!


oh man I'm getting a headache.

are you a carrier?


----------



## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

testee said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > Happy 4th!! I'm hitting the nude beach!
> ...


Now I'm confused...must be that second glass of wine...long weekend, here I come!!!


----------



## XOXOXO (Jun 30, 2011)

PE-ness said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > Incorrigible!
> ...


I like your PE-ness.


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 1, 2011)

csb said:


> Same here. Civil Engineering was only outdone by ArchE in terms of women in the program. We had at least 25% representation, if not more.
> And, FWIW, I'm a civil engineer working in construction. I'm kinda amazed that the east coast is that closed minded to women in engineering/construction.


Not just the East Coast. I know/have dealt with exactly three other female engineers in the civil/structural track around here. Two of them work for the local jurisdiction, with the third being an EIT at a transportation engineering firm.

Since I didn't go to college, I don't think I'm particularly qualified to talk about the secondary education system and how it deals with women. But I can tell you that I've noticed more clients, contractors and owners that have issues talking to a female engineer, or accepting that she did the calculations correctly. I had one client have someone else check a calculation I performed... after I quadruple-checked it at his request. I've also been told by my boss that "women can be too emotional for engineers", and "I've never seen you break down emotionally like that before, try to maintain a professional decorum" (after I got some bad personal news, and left the office early to go weep... 3-1/2 hours after I got the news, because I had to get a new employee started on training).


----------



## knight1fox3 (Jul 1, 2011)

Seems you have some admirers POed Mommy. :dancingnaughty:



Dolphin P.E. said:


> DannyV said:
> 
> 
> > OK, Am I the only one who noticed how great looking POed Mommy is on that picture? I have to say that I'm completely stunt on... 10 years in the business and we almost don't get to see the opposite sex on the engineering business let along an attractive member of the opposite sex... LOL
> ...


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 1, 2011)

knight1fox3 said:


> Seems you have some admirers POed Mommy. :dancingnaughty:


(and about me)



nostradumbass said:


> wow. a woman who gets right to the point and is not afraid of hurting someones feelings...i think im in love


This is relevant to the discussion. It's *creepy* when men randomly start talking about how hot women in their profession are, and it tends to scare women off - either they don't like the attention, or the fawning becomes irritating.

[SIZE=8pt]Not that I don't agree about POed Mommy.[/SIZE]


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 1, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> csb said:
> 
> 
> > Same here. Civil Engineering was only outdone by ArchE in terms of women in the program. We had at least 25% representation, if not more.
> ...


I asked my husband to read this book...I won't post it here because no matter what I post the poopy faces around here will make fun of it...

Anyway...my husband goes, "now I know women CAN think when they are emotional." No, he's not a pig. He actually thought when I was crying/upset that I couldn't THINK straight...that my thought process was compromised...because I was "emotional."

From what I understand, that is a common MISCONCEPTION. As a matter of fact, women can be very emotional, and friggin think just fine thank you!!!

I had a terrible, traumatic experience earlier this year, and I'd throw myself into my work to forget it...I'd be on a roll...then someone would come over and say, "gosh, you're so quiet, is everything ok???"

And I had to excuse myself, go to the bathroom and cry my balls off (yes I wrote that). Then I walked to my desk while attempting to keep composure. I felt weak and stupid for not being able to control the tears.

As for all the compliments (in this post and on others) THANKS!!


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 1, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> I asked my husband to read this book...I won't post it here because no matter what I post the poopy faces around here will make fun of it...
> Anyway...my husband goes, "now I know women CAN think when they are emotional." No, he's not a pig. He actually thought when I was crying/upset that I couldn't THINK straight...that my thought process was compromised...because I was "emotional."
> 
> From what I understand, that is a common MISCONCEPTION. As a matter of fact, women can be very emotional, and friggin think just fine thank you!!!
> ...


I'd love to know which book. My boss might be able to learn from it.

As for the rest, yeah.. I was torn between wanting someone to talk to (so I could deal with the stress properly) or wanting to bottle it all up until after work. So every time someone came by, I'd start telling them and then stop as it got too personal. And yeah, the issue was about as personal as you can get.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 2, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> As for the rest, yeah.. I was torn between wanting someone to talk to (so I could deal with the stress properly) or wanting to bottle it all up until after work.


Or you could just want a bottle and be done with it! There's no problem so bad for a man that it can't be sufficiently drowned! Or is that a stereotype?


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 2, 2011)

IlPadrino said:


> Karen S. P.E. said:
> 
> 
> > As for the rest, yeah.. I was torn between wanting someone to talk to (so I could deal with the stress properly) or wanting to bottle it all up until after work.
> ...


I'm somewhat intolerant of alcohol; that is, it makes me sick to drink even a little bit of most alcohols (or fruit juices) - so far, the only one I've tried that hasn't made me immediately ill was Vodka. Though when I got home I was sitting there staring at my wife's liquor cabinet wishing I could drink and trying to decide if knowing how sick I'd be it'd still be worth it.

Also, fixed it for you.


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 3, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > I asked my husband to read this book...I won't post it here because no matter what I post the poopy faces around here will make fun of it...
> ...


The book is called "The Male Factor." It was written for a female audience, but my husband said it was very good...I met the author at a NYC event and she is great...interviewed thousands of men for the book. I attended a presentation and an "interactive" theater performance addressing main points in the book, and actually have not read it yet...


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 3, 2011)

IlPadrino said:


> Karen S. P.E. said:
> 
> 
> > As for the rest, yeah.. I was torn between wanting someone to talk to (so I could deal with the stress properly) or wanting to bottle it all up until after work.
> ...


I drown plenty of my sorrows in a hot bubble bath and a glass of red wine.


----------



## maryannette (Jul 3, 2011)

Margaritas ROCK!


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 3, 2011)

Merrimac said:


> Margaritas ROCK!


OMG we have a place by me that specializes in Margaritas...I've had five flavors to date and YES...they ROCK...


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 4, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> > Karen S. P.E. said:
> ...


I think you broke it... I've never heard of a stereotypical woman drinking her problems away. Unless you're referring to the stereotype of drowning the problem in *tears*... then, yeah, thanks for the fix!


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 4, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> I drown plenty of my sorrows in a hot bubble bath and a glass of red wine.


That's probably the healthiest way! But then there's no hangover. And without hangovers, we'd have one (or two) less blockbuster movies!


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 4, 2011)

IlPadrino said:


> I think you broke it... I've never heard of a stereotypical woman drinking her problems away. Unless you're referring to the stereotype of drowning the problem in *tears*... then, yeah, thanks for the fix!


Maybe not stereotypical women, but I know I was severely tempted to do so. I'd already tried drowning the problem in tears, and that didn't work. I'd tried drowning the problem in conversation, and while that worked for a while it was rather harder to do when nobody I trusted was around to talk to (wife was out for the evening with friends). I tried drowning it out by working, but ran out of things I could handle by myself. I tried drowning it out by distraction (video games), but that didn't work either - not distracting enough.

In any case, I'm about as far from "stereotypical woman" as you can get as a general rule.


----------



## Road Guy (Jul 5, 2011)

I'll probably get cat scrathed for saying this....but....

the succesfull women I know in engineering (&amp; there are alot IMO) dont sit around counting how many women are at a certain conference, or how many are managers at their workplace, the ones that are sucessful seem to do what most other sucessful people do, they show up at work, do their job, dont dwell on statistics and get the job done...


----------



## picusld (Jul 5, 2011)

Stated another way

the succesfull people I know don't sit around counting how many people like them are at a certain conference, or how many managers are like them at their workplace, the people that are sucessful seem to do what most other sucessful people do, they show up at work, do their job, dont dwell on statistics and get the job done...


----------



## maryannette (Jul 5, 2011)

My claws are NOT out, but you guys really don't understand.

Even if you show up at work, do your job, don't dwell on statistics and get the job done ... when there are 50 men and 1 woman, it is noticeable and notable. It is not an excuse or a crutch or worthy of more than a passing comment. It should not contribute to or distract from success. That's the way I like it.

Maybe you can understand if you have ever gotten a great assignment and somebody accused you of sleeping with the boss;

OR if you have been asked where your children are while you are at work;

OR asked what EVER made you want to be an engineer (in a shocked/discouraging way);

OR been told that there are deserving (male) engineers who are out of work because of you ....

I'm sure it's similar for male nurses. They are probably asked why they don't wear a cute little white uniform.

Maybe one day gender and race will be "invisible" professionally. I look forward to that day.


----------



## envirotex (Jul 5, 2011)

^^^ lusone:


----------



## CbusPaul (Jul 5, 2011)

However, it doesn't seem like PO'd Mommy ever tried to take her sex out of the conversation. Including bringing up her going to a nude beach over the weekend. It seems like she enjoys being the only female around and it seems to be THE topic of conversation every time she comments.


----------



## maryannette (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, there are some engineers I work with who think they are the greatest gift to the world because of their knowledge. I don't judge all engineers to be so conceited.


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 5, 2011)

Merrimac said:


> My claws are NOT out, but you guys really don't understand.
> Even if you show up at work, do your job, don't dwell on statistics and get the job done ... when there are 50 men and 1 woman, it is noticeable and notable. It is not an excuse or a crutch or worthy of more than a passing comment. It should not contribute to or distract from success. That's the way I like it.
> 
> Maybe you can understand if you have ever gotten a great assignment and somebody accused you of sleeping with the boss;
> ...


Well said.

It's been a particularly nasty shock for me, since I'm transgendered, and only "recently" out - I've had more issues with clients and others disrespecting me in the past 8 months that I've been visibly female than I had in the 10 years or so prior to that. I've gotten comments about how I must be PMSing, I've had clients hit on me randomly, and I've been told that women are too emotional for this line of work.


----------



## Road Guy (Jul 5, 2011)

I think women get hit on in all lines of work, my wife is a nurse and will have fat half dead guys hit on her while they lie in the bed shitting themselves...

Just because women get "hit on" doesnt necessarily make engineering any worse a career field than others...


----------



## envirotex (Jul 5, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> I think women get hit on in all lines of work, my wife is a nurse and will have fat half dead guys hit on her while they lie in the bed shitting themselves...
> Just because women get "hit on" doesnt necessarily make engineering any worse a career field than others...


It does happen occassionally...I just pretend that I don't have any idea that they are hitting on me, and steer them back towards the task at hand...They usually get the message.

If that doesn't work, I suggest that they should meet my husband, since they have similar interests.


----------



## csb (Jul 5, 2011)

I use the same approach to getting hit on...just pretending it's not happening. I've rarely had someone cross a line that I'm not comfortable with and in those instances it's been easy enough to buddy up with another engineer (male or female) so I'm not alone.

I've heard men say to each other "oh, is so and so pms-ing" but no one would dare say something like that to me. Most of the insults around here are general and not gender based.


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 5, 2011)

envirotex said:


> Road Guy said:
> 
> 
> > I think women get hit on in all lines of work, my wife is a nurse and will have fat half dead guys hit on her while they lie in the bed shitting themselves...
> ...



Yeah, I generally ignore it. Married, plus I've been out of the dating game for so long that I can't even tell half the time if I'm being hit on or the other person's just friendly. It's mostly the PMS comments and similar things that bug me. Or having my opinion (as the licensed P.E. on a project) being ignored by the client, who then asked a subordinate what he thought. That one enraged me.

Fortunately, the coworker said "Karen's right", or a variant thereof.


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 5, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> However, it doesn't seem like PO'd Mommy ever tried to take her sex out of the conversation. Including bringing up her going to a nude beach over the weekend. It seems like she enjoys being the only female around and it seems to be THE topic of conversation every time she comments.


Why on earth would I ever take sex out of a conversation?

The point of this rant take-over is that I am a women, and WE are not equally represented on the executive level, or any level below that and I'm damn PO-ed about it!

MEN can talk about sex, joke about sex, talk about porn, etc. but if PO-ed mommy does it all of a sudden I'm an attention seeker?

And if YOU men can put girls with jiggly boobs to be funny, then I can talk about being naked all I damn well please.

Thank you very much.


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 5, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> Merrimac said:
> 
> 
> > My claws are NOT out, but you guys really don't understand.
> ...


Karen, God bless you for sharing that.

Merrimac...been there, done that...gender and race...sexual orientation...people don't want "preferential" treatment, but if that's what it takes to get us where we need to be, then so be it.

I work VERY hard...but what jackasses at worked noticed was that I had to be out for a week for a family issue, and requested (and was approved) to have a modified/reduced work week while I handled the previously mentioned trauma...

But they patted the guy who became a new dad on the back for showing up to his wife's c-section and returned to work a couple of days later. I was shocked he didn't take off several weeks to be with his wife, who just had major surgery, and his new baby.

There are differences...yes, and they need to be understood. We are not the same...and there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with that. Just "doing your job" may be different for me...and that shouldn't be a negative thing. The point of this discussion is to understand how women fit in to a working world dominated and designed by men.

I'm sure that totally benign sentence above is going to generate all sorts of negativity...here we go!


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> There are differences...yes, and they need to be understood. We are not the same...and there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with that. Just "doing your job" may be different for me...and that shouldn't be a negative thing. *The point of this discussion is to understand how women fit in to a working world dominated and designed by men.*


I find it interesting that you respond to gender bias with your own brand of gender bias.

A few definitions from dictionary.com before you become PO'd at me:

*bias *: a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question; prejudice.

*prejudice (n, v)*: unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, especially of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.

So, in my humble opinion, characterizing the work world dominated and designed by men, suggesting by extrapolation, it is oppressive to women perpetrates generalizations of a class of people, in this case men.

Don't get me wrong - I believe the points made by you, Mary, Karen, csb, and envirotex are not only valid but certainly not isolated. At the same time, it isn't right or fair to make sweeping generalizations about men in the workplace. For that is, by definition, the very nature of prejudice.



POed Mommy said:


> I'm sure that totally benign sentence above is going to generate all sorts of negativity...here we go!


It's not benign if cloaked in reverse-bias/prejudice.

Again, I am all for making the workplace diverse and free from harrassment. Casting aspersions towards men, in general, isn't the way to achieve fair treatment, in my humble opinion.

JR


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 5, 2011)

jregieng said:


> POed Mommy said:
> 
> 
> > There are differences...yes, and they need to be understood. We are not the same...and there sure as hell isn't anything wrong with that. Just "doing your job" may be different for me...and that shouldn't be a negative thing. *The point of this discussion is to understand how women fit in to a working world dominated and designed by men.*
> ...


I love how anything that is said FOR one group, is somehow AGAINST another...

I know men are into sports (generalization/stereotypical yes, stated for the sake of argument since we are now dissecting everything)...and they have to pick a team, and fight/kill/die for that team...but that is not necessary here. I don't hate men...in fact I think they are great!

That said...if I talk (or even hint) about anything even remotely sexy, it is frowned upon. Why? Are we not all adults here? I just had a female colleague tell me that her boss (follow me here) told her that a principal from another firm (still with me) complained that she used an expletive at a meeting. Now for me, I would never curse in a meeting, ever. But she explained to her boss that not only had it been done before (and even in his presence) it was totally unfair for her to be singled out...but she agreed to stop. Not even a day later, her boss goes to her and apologizes. Seems he had a meeting and he threw around inappropriate language, as did the others in the room (oh, did I mention it was all men?)...AND (almost finished) he couldn't believe that he never noticed before...until someone complained about (you guessed it) HER. And he said...you know what? There is a double standard. And my friends, there is.

So in my not so humble opinion, you've got it all wrong and are unfortunately missing the point. We can obviously argue till the cows come home (or bulls for that matter)...nothing written/implied is of any bias/prejudicial nature...

Just sayin...


----------



## Guest (Jul 5, 2011)

Well, if you want to respond to factual statements with anecdotes and take limited experiences to apply to a broader group and call it truth, well, then you are correct. I can't argue with THAT truth no more than I can argue that Christianity is greater than Islam.

I don't deny your experience, or that of the other ladies who posted within this thread. I honestly believe you have been subjected to hostile, unfair work practices by the examples provided. It is not fair.

I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth.

As far as talking sexy, offensive, or in any manner you feel - it's a free country, I hold nothing against you or any other person for doing so. I think you should talk anyway you like. 

As for me, I don't dislike women. To the contrary, I like women very much. I not only appreciate your points but I am not discouraging your voicing out of your experiences.

I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.

JR


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 6, 2011)

jregieng said:


> Well, if you want to respond to factual statements with anecdotes and take limited experiences to apply to a broader group and call it truth, well, then you are correct. I can't argue with THAT truth no more than I can argue that Christianity is greater than Islam.
> I don't deny your experience, or that of the other ladies who posted within this thread. I honestly believe you have been subjected to hostile, unfair work practices by the examples provided. It is not fair.
> 
> I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth.
> ...


Not sure about others. But for me, I would prefer to be treated overall as just one of the people working there. No more, no less. I don't want other people to do inspections instead of me so I can keep my clothing clean (I keep inspection clothes in the car), I don't want clients or coworkers to skip over me and ask my male colleagues questions, and I don't want to be treated differently - well, not in a greater sense - than I was a year and a half ago.


----------



## Guest (Jul 6, 2011)

^^^ That's completely fair and should be expected from your employer/workplace.

JR


----------



## csb (Jul 6, 2011)

Karen S. P.E. said:


> Not sure about others. But for me, I would prefer to be treated overall as just one of the people working there. No more, no less. I don't want other people to do inspections instead of me so I can keep my clothing clean (I keep inspection clothes in the car), I don't want clients or coworkers to skip over me and ask my male colleagues questions, and I don't want to be treated differently - well, not in a greater sense - than I was a year and a half ago.


This IS how I'm treated at work. I've had more troubles being young than I ever have had being a woman. My most hostile work environment was one that was dominated by women- a female boss with other female managers. I was shocked at how they operated...expecting me to let things slide because, hey, we're all girls. It was horrible...I couldn't question something in a meeting without it turning into a very special talk about feelings. Totally ridiculous. My boss felt that all men must disrespect her because she's a woman and that's how she operated, to her detriment.

I've had instances in this job where men have been in meetings with me and not made eye contact and not spoken to me, because they either 1. have a problem with women or 2. don't know my position. I just pipe up and let them know I'm the one in charge and things change. I've got too big a mouth to let that happen.


----------



## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 6, 2011)

No one at the office gave me a hard time about the youth thing, but contractors would try to pull shit on me all the time on site. If something smelled fishy, but I didn't have a great answer for the guy, I'd grab my phone and say I'm going to check in with my boss before we proceed. They'd almost always immediately drop it and do it per spec. It was a good technique.


----------



## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

jregieng said:


> I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.
> JR


I don't know the answer to that...hence my playing devil's advocate on this board.


----------



## Guest (Jul 6, 2011)

^^^ If your motivation is to provide entertainment while delivering a public service announcement, that's okay by me. 

JR


----------



## Exception Collection (Jul 6, 2011)

VTEnviro said:


> No one at the office gave me a hard time about the youth thing, but contractors would try to pull shit on me all the time on site. If something smelled fishy, but I didn't have a great answer for the guy, I'd grab my phone and say I'm going to check in with my boss before we proceed. They'd almost always immediately drop it and do it per spec. It was a good technique.


Oh yes this happened to me regularly. Not a gender thing, an inexperience or corrupt thing. Fortunately/Unfortunately, these days I know exactly where the borders of OK changes and not OK changes are.

I angered a contractor off a few weeks ago; he had "missed" half of the anchor bolts in a structure (had the same all around, when some shear walls had them specced out at as close as 12" o.c.)... he asked if wedge anchors would be acceptable, I told him "yes in these areas, no in those" - with the no (top of a retaining wall; they were failing in shear due to the edge distance) comprising the vast majority of the locations.

The speed at which he got things fixed tells me he had the anchors on site, he just hadn't bothered installing them.

(That was the one inspection I wish someone else had been able to do - not because I'm a girl, but because sending the acrophobe out on wet &amp; muddy scaffolding to look at a 10' retaining wall seems a bad idea... not that I didn't get it done. I just wish I'd asked someone else to take care of it instead.)


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## Exception Collection (Jul 6, 2011)

csb said:


> This IS how I'm treated at work. I've had more troubles being young than I ever have had being a woman. My most hostile work environment was one that was dominated by women- a female boss with other female managers. I was shocked at how they operated...expecting me to let things slide because, hey, we're all girls. It was horrible...I couldn't question something in a meeting without it turning into a very special talk about feelings. Totally ridiculous. My boss felt that all men must disrespect her because she's a woman and that's how she operated, to her detriment.
> I've had instances in this job where men have been in meetings with me and not made eye contact and not spoken to me, because they either 1. have a problem with women or 2. don't know my position. I just pipe up and let them know I'm the one in charge and things change. I've got too big a mouth to let that happen.


It's pretty much how I'm treated here as well - but I'm pretty sure I'm only treated this way because everyone knows me so well. If I had started out female, I'm pretty sure I never would've gotten the job. I do know we've *never* had female technical staff here. We've had 5 female receptionists/office managers, but no drafters/designers. And the one female receptionist that requested AutoCAD be installed on her computer so she could learn drafting (so she could help out in busy periods), was fired shortly after.

I've also been turned down for at least one job due to issues - but that was due to gender identity discrimination, not gender discrimination.

Oh, and my wife worked at a place like you described, with the almost fully female staff. Something like an 80/20 split girls/guys overall at the local office (200-300 people total) - her dept was the only one that was majority male, and even it had a female manager.


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

I worked in insurance for years (I also delivered pizzas for a time) prior to becoming an engineer. The insurance place was predominantly female, and it was catty, petty and annoying (but this wasn't a professional environment...we were data entry peeps, nothing more...some customer service too).

I'd avoid a place with a "full" female staff...I'm not saying we should send men to the moon and have all female engineering firms...good God no.


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## CbusPaul (Jul 6, 2011)

Karen, you weren't always a woman? I'm confused and I've read that several times.


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## csb (Jul 6, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> I worked in insurance for years (I also delivered pizzas for a time) prior to becoming an engineer. The insurance place was predominantly female, and it was catty, petty and annoying (but this wasn't a professional environment...we were data entry peeps, nothing more...some customer service too).
> I'd avoid a place with a "full" female staff...I'm not saying we should send men to the moon and have all female engineering firms...good God no.


Ours was a "professional" environment and it was catty, petty, and annoying, with most of the women managers using the few men as sounding boards.


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> Karen, you weren't always a woman? I'm confused and I've read that several times.



I was wondering when some one was gonna bring that up.

When I read her posts and viewed her profile I gathered she is a transgendered woman. Must be because I'm from New York.


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## envirotex (Jul 6, 2011)

jregieng said:


> I am also stating that characterizing a large population with a gross generalization, is, by definition bias. If you don't see the irony, I am not going to clobber you with it. I am simply offering a counter-point to what you appear to believe is an apparent truth....
> 
> I do wonder though, what would equalize the hostile, unfair work practices that you have either observed or subjected to? Just curious.
> 
> JR



I don't think that any of the examples cited on this thread are the universal truth for all work situations, and like some of the other posters, some of the worst experiences I've had at work involve other women. It is one of the reasons I think I like working in a male dominated field...not near as much sniping, and women can be vicious.

I'm not sure what would equalize the environment because I don't think it's just the men that I work with, it's society in general, that is still somewhat uncomfortable with women (particularly, women with children) who work outside the home. And I know that there are plenty of men on this board who are very proud of the fact that their wives work, and work hard, my husband is the same, I just think that it takes a really long time for some cultural changes to occur. To again, cite a specific example from Merrimac, a man generally wouldn't ask another man who watches his kids while he's at work...it's an innocent question, and the questioner might not even realize that a female colleague could take exception. So, by the same token, while we're waiting for the cultural shift, you kind of have to take the good with the bad..."we've come a long way, baby."


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

^ concur on the "particularly women with children who work outside the home."

I've been criticized at work for needing time (flex and otherwise) to tend to my three children...

and I've been criticized by neighbors/family/friends for working too hard...and in their words "neglecting" my children.

I was actually asked, "but then what kind of mother are you going to be?" when explaining my aspirations to another woman.

Also concur on the cultural shift wait. That is what the point is.

Still waiting...


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## Exception Collection (Jul 6, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> Karen, you weren't always a woman? I'm confused and I've read that several times.





Karen S. P.E. said:


> Well said.
> It's been a particularly nasty shock for me, since I'm transgendered, and only "recently" out - I've had more issues with clients and others disrespecting me in the past 8 months that I've been visibly female than I had in the 10 years or so prior to that. I've gotten comments about how I must be PMSing, I've had clients hit on me randomly, and I've been told that women are too emotional for this line of work.





POed Mommy said:


> I was wondering when some one was gonna bring that up.
> When I read her posts and viewed her profile I gathered she is a transgendered woman. Must be because I'm from New York.



Probably because you'd read it and acknowledged it yesterday.



POed Mommy said:


> Karen, God bless you for sharing that.


It's even in the same thread!

In any case, yes, I was always a woman - in my brain, and in my soul (if you believe in that. I do.) - It just didn't match the physical. I started my full time transition last October, after notifying my employer and coworkers in March '10. So yes, I've experienced the "male privilege", and I must say that while I never really believed in it previously, the differences in my experiences pre and post transition - even amongst those that don't know that I'm transgendered - have been significant.

Take for example a post I made on another thread here on EB. I commented that someone that had failed the exam 3 times may want to reconsider taking it again without refresher courses (they were trying to find out if they could get around the requirement), or something along those lines. Last year, I would've been told "harsh", or maybe "harsh but reasonable". Instead, I got blasted somewhat, and one person made the following comment:



nostradumbass said:


> wow. a woman who gets right to the point and is not afraid of hurting someones feelings...i think im in love


Now, while I'm not going to (directly) comment on the appropriateness of the nickname, that to me seemed massively inappropriate to use during a professional discussion between peers and prospective peers.


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

No I knew before you wrote it...you then confirmed it...you were talking about your wife in your first post, before mentioning anything else, and I also read your profile, prior to you spelling it out.

And I think you obviously offer a unique perspective to all of this...


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## MGX (Jul 6, 2011)

So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?

There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.


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## Supe (Jul 6, 2011)

Correct proportion of women in the office = the number to fill my own position - 1


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## MGX (Jul 6, 2011)

It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.

I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

MGX said:


> So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?
> There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.


I am so gonna have my cake and eat it...

Dunno any magic...I just know that is is disproportionate. And to quote my two year old, "I don't like that."


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## DVINNY (Jul 6, 2011)

Very interesting thread to say the least.

I have to add a new variable: the size of the company.

I have worked at smaller companies, one had 20-25 employees at any given time, one had 600-800 employees at any given time, and now one that has 13,000+ employees.

I can tell you that the atmosphere for women working in the different sized companies is quite different. At least from my (non-female) perspective.

I think the 13,000+ company offers the best environment, with less discrimination, and the small 20 person company was too small and personal for any 'cliques', everyone was like family. The 600-800 employee company, I witnessed things similar to what was mentioned above, and was probably the worst of the three for a female worker. In my opinion.

So what size companies are the women in this thread working in?


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

DVINNY said:


> Very interesting thread to say the least.
> I have to add a new variable: the size of the company.
> 
> I have worked at smaller companies, one had 20-25 employees at any given time, one had 600-800 employees at any given time, and now one that has 13,000+ employees.
> ...


Interesting question...first firm was less than 200 ee's (where the "things we do not speak of" mentioned above occurred). Granted, excellent firm/reputation/experience...but frustrating to say the least...rich heritage of an old boys club, and that is what I respected most about it...thought to myself "I got in!" They are like the ivy league of specialized design firms. I think they are making great strides though now...I got the timing wrong. There is one special "hard hitter" woman they brought in (possibly to change the aforementioned perceived (will throw that in) problem).

Current firm is 1000+ employees, better, but yes, cliquey as you say. Definitely few women engineers, but two are in charge, very seasoned, plenty of women in HR etc. Very very difficult transition (and I thought I saw it all)...hard to explain without being specific and I'm not into self-sabotage.

I haven't hit the 10,000+ level yet...but have considered it, and surmised what you wrote above...that it would probably be "better."


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

MGX said:


> It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.
> I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?


Let's stop the browbeating...and I will ignore your last sentence (for now)...

Here are some of the facts as I knew it (late 80's to 2003...I was in middle school/high school/and college in this era...and started my career as an engineer in 2003, the end of the data presented here).

Am working on locating stats for 2003 to the Present (and am going on the assumption that it has improved in some sectors).


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## envirotex (Jul 6, 2011)

MGX said:


> So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?
> There must be a correct proportion, again I'll ask what that magic proportion is. At what percentage of women engineers will this criteria be satisfied? It doesn't seem like you can have your cake and eat it too.



What I said was that I chose to work in a field where I knew there would be more men than women, and that works for me, personally. I don't know if there will ever be any equality for the numbers of men and women working in engineering fields. What I see happening and what I am hopeful for is a shift in the attitudes towards gender in the workplace...



MGX said:


> It all seems a nebulous argument without an agenda or achievable, measurable goals. Without data, these arguments tend to devolve into a club to browbeat people with.
> I will stir the pot further - is there any evidence that a higher percentage of women result in a higher quality product or service?


There are plenty of data to show that there are less women in engineering fields than men (look in your own office, if you don't believe me), and a number of studies that indicate that reason leave engineering and science professions is because of the workplace culture. (See also the 2011 NSF study on why women leave engineering...)

In terms of evidence for whether or not more women in the engineering workforce, think of the overall labor pool for qualified engineers...If you believe that men and women are equally intelligent, then what we are seeing is a significant loss to the talent pool of qualified engineers when women decide not to pursue engineering careers, and so we lose technical expertise in engineering fields where we otherwise could have made significant advances. It's kind of like saying all of the best football players are from Texas...


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

envirotex said:


> MGX said:
> 
> 
> > So you want more women in engineering but not an office full of women because they're "catty and vicious"?
> ...


Am compiling some info/data and ran across this...you just mentioned it...

http://www.time.com/time/business/article/...1976774,00.html


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## MGX (Jul 6, 2011)

Thanks for the information. I will agree that women can be stifled in the engineering workplace. Being in construction, there is a noticeable dearth of women in the field and office. However PO said time will change this and to that I must agree. Once the old boys are retired and gone we should see more women encouraged to pursue engineering as a profession and be promoted. In fact, my undergrad class (civil) is near 50/50 male female. Camaraderie is good in spite of the gender differences so the only variable that is obvious is the age difference between younger students and workers and the management in engineering firms.


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## Exception Collection (Jul 6, 2011)

DVINNY said:


> Very interesting thread to say the least.
> I have to add a new variable: the size of the company.
> 
> I have worked at smaller companies, one had 20-25 employees at any given time, one had 600-800 employees at any given time, and now one that has 13,000+ employees.
> ...


I work in a small office. 5 design staff, with 3 licensed engineers (Structural &amp; Civil) and 2 designer/drafters. They're all men; as I mentioned above, I don't think they've (knowingly) hired any women at all for engineering positions.


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## XOXOXO (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm a bit of a fighter, and I tend to get my point across by about the fifth round...I'm working on that. I'd like to wrap it up by the first.

"More than two-thirds of women still think men resent powerful women, yet women are more likely than men to say female bosses are harder to work for than male ones. Men are much more likely to say there are no longer any barriers to female advancement, while a majority of women say men still have it better in life."

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages...1930309,00.html #ixzz1RNNZ4vVK

I never thought to google this stuff...just kinda knew it was happening around me...

But it has been great to bring it up, and understand that I have to present the facts and back my argument up. I appreciate the feedback. Thanks EB!


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## DVINNY (Jul 7, 2011)

It isn't always one way, with gender bias....

example:

my Wife works full time (is primary bread-winner, has out earned me 12 straight years now), and I am proud of her work and what she does. It has never bothered me at all, except maybe this once..

I was walking my daughter to the front door of the school one day, and while holding my hand, looks up and says "Dad, when are you going to get a GOOD job so that Mommy doesn't have to work?"

Talk about being kicked in the nads.

I'd say that question may even trump a co-worker saying to a female engineer "Who's watching your kids?"

It's very harsh coming from a Kindergartener (at the time). Come to find out, one of the other students' Mom would come in to read to class all the time, and when my daughter asked her how she can come to class all the time, she said "So-and-so's Daddy has a really good job and I don't have to work", but didn't find this out until after questioning my wife on what kind of $h!t she was feeding our kids.


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## Road Guy (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm a stay at home son


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## MGX (Jul 7, 2011)

I really hope my soon to be wife gets a really good job so I don't have to work. Collecting from the couch has always been a dream of mine. Restoring vintage sports cars in my garage while wifey is out working hard bringing home the bacon would be ideal. I've told her that any business I start will be hers for the tax breaks and gov benefits!


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## Exception Collection (Jul 7, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> I'm a stay at home son


I have a stay at (my mother's) home brother. It's ridiculous. He causes me issues.

He's half a decade (give or take) older than I am, was almost a National Merit Scholar, was able to go to a decent private college (between my parent's payments, the loans, and a scholarship), and doesn't have the same "social issues" I do. Yet he's still living at my mother's home, not working, living off her largesse. He's had decent jobs handed to him (drafter at my father's residential design co.), and never made anything of them. Didn't even bother trying to learn.

But by god, he's never accepted any sort of handout!

Yes, seriously. We were talking politics a few weeks ago, and the point was raised that welfare is screwed up... and he was very proud of the fact that he "wasn't a drain on society". I literally started choking; last time I discuss that topic over lunch...

/mini-rant over

Edit: Oh yeah, and my wife and I both work; I of course as an engineer/designer, her as an independent contractor working from home. When it's possible to survive reasonably well with a single income, one of us will probably stop working. Which one is still somewhat up for debate. We don't have kids, and probably never will. So that's not an issue for us.

(And contrary to the common picture, yes, it is possible to make money as an independent contractor - last year, she made more than I did.)


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2011)

POed Mommy said:


> I'm a bit of a fighter, and I tend to get my point across by about the fifth round...I'm working on that. I'd like to wrap it up by the first


So, I looked at bias in a different way - statistically, and found that women do end up on the short end of the stick based on the Stable Marriage Problem

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stable_marriage_problem

The stable solution yields a more favorable solution for the Gentleman (proposer) than the woman.

And, if want to watch the bias unfold in mathmatical form, I provide you with the graphical solution to the Gale-Shapely Algorithm:







JR


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## envirotex (Jul 7, 2011)

MGX said:


> I really hope my soon to be wife gets a really good job so I don't have to work. Collecting from the couch has always been a dream of mine. Restoring vintage sports cars in my garage while wifey is out working hard bringing home the bacon would be ideal. I've told her that any business I start will be hers for the tax breaks and gov benefits!


Wait, have you met my husband? Have you seen the picture of my garage?


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## csb (Jul 7, 2011)

My total company size is 1800, with 400 locally.


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## Master slacker (Jul 7, 2011)

My company can beat up your company. 

36000ish and 2000ish respectively.


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## CbusPaul (Jul 7, 2011)

But does your company have enough women?


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## Ble_PE (Jul 7, 2011)

Master slacker said:


> My company can beat up your company.
> 36000ish and 2000ish respectively.


Not positive anymore since we've had a lot of lay offs, but last I heard we are around 45000 or so and only around 80 in my office.


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## Master slacker (Jul 7, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> But does your company have enough women?


too many... :lmao:


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## Dark Knight (Jul 7, 2011)

My company has lots of women. Let us say that they like diversity so much that the ratio of women:men in management is 1:1.

Sadly for the company half of the management staff are idiots...and the other half too.


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## MGX (Jul 7, 2011)

Time to join NO MAAM (National Organization of Men Against Amazonian Masterhood)


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## maryannette (Jul 7, 2011)

Or, NO SIR (National Organization of Stupid Idiots Ranting).

ha ha ha ha hahaha


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2011)

Well played, Mary .... touche!

JR


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## Slugger926 (Jul 8, 2011)

Dark Knight said:


> My company has lots of women. Let us say that they like diversity so much that the ratio of women:men in management is 1:1.
> Sadly for the company half of the management staff are idiots...and the other half too.


You must work where I work. It is frustrating when many in management may have no more than a GED, and I have two master degrees and no openings.


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## csb (Jul 8, 2011)

Master slacker said:


> My company can beat up your company.
> 36000ish and 2000ish respectively.


Um...we have a lot of heavy machinery?


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## picusld (Jul 8, 2011)

CbusPaul said:


> But does your company have enough women?


sure no shortage of women on this board.


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## Master slacker (Jul 8, 2011)

csb said:


> Master slacker said:
> 
> 
> > My company can beat up your company.
> ...


We have 8 gas turbines with rotors weighing 50 tons each (not including the generators) and 5 steam turbines with rotors between 20 and 30 tons each (w/o generators).

If your heavy machinery is bigger, then I congratulate thee. Otherwise... well...


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## csb (Jul 8, 2011)

Well, at least ours is mobile. We're like X-Wing fighters going up against your AT-ATs.

+5 SW


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## Exception Collection (Jul 8, 2011)

csb said:


> Well, at least ours is mobile. We're like X-Wing fighters going up against your AT-ATs.
> +5 SW


as opposed to the Enterprise-D vs. DS9?


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## Master slacker (Jul 8, 2011)

We have more of a Death Star feeling. There's always something going wrong and operators are oblivious to the brown-robed dude on the bridge sabatoging the tractor beam.


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## csb (Jul 8, 2011)

^ nice


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 8, 2011)

Mine's more like Tatooine...slave labor.


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## Exception Collection (Jul 8, 2011)

VTEnviro said:


> Mine's more like Tatooine...slave labor.


Sounds familiar.


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## NCcarguy (Jul 11, 2011)

see what happens when you don't visit all the time??? I think I saw one post about a nude beach!!!

We have 5 here...no women, and let me tell you, I could use a couple. I'm accepting resume's with photos only...the more nude, the better.


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## envirotex (Jul 11, 2011)

^^^lol


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## Master slacker (Jul 11, 2011)

NCcarguy said:


> I'm accepting resume's with photos only...the more *d*ude, the better.


Fixt it just for you.

And stop sending me messages.


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## Slugger926 (Jul 11, 2011)

csb said:


> Master slacker said:
> 
> 
> > My company can beat up your company.
> ...


My company is an army of 196,200. There are rumors that we have time travel technology hidden away.


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## csb (Jul 11, 2011)

I can make 10 minutes of work take 8 hours. Does that count?


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