# Licensed Consulting Engineers - Benefits of Grad School?



## idrive (Jan 2, 2015)

Hi all,

I am a long time lurker and first time poster. These forums really inspired me to pursue licensure and helped me stay the course to thanks to all for that. I'd like to solicit some feedback from consulting engineers regarding the merits of graduate school (MS, MEng, MBA, or PhD). For the sake of privacy I don't want to divulge too much information or specifics but I am in my mid-20's, single, licensed, and currently making in the range of 120-200k annually gross. Been working as an engineer and now consulting engineer during and since graduating from undergrad. Good work flexibility, good work-life-balance, minimal travel (~10-20% time), good telecommute options as a consultant (since I left cubicle land at least). Here's my story:

I've really been struggling these past couple of years with the idea of committing the time and expenses to pursuing a graduate degree and ideally I'd like to initiate the process in a couple of years by age 28 or so if I decide to pursue. I do have some friends in engineering grad school now, but none licensed or working as consulting engineers (most were R&amp;D or design engineers for mid/large corporations) so my sample is a bit skewed. None of my close friends went straight into grad school out of undergrad due to student loans or family factors (e.g. kids) - they all took the job offers first. I worked multiple jobs during undergrad to stay out of debt so I'm no stranger to working while in school (which tbh were some of the hardest years of my life...last 2/3 years at 16-20 credit units per quarter, 2+ part time jobs &amp; research). My GPA definitely took a hit due to these circumstances, but I kept it between 3.1-3.5 cumulative so within the range of grad schools I reckon. Also was immature when I started, worked a lot, partied a lot, and basically almost failed out once so last couple of years are closer to 3.5-3.9 all upper div. Graduated with multiple offers in hand but didn't bother applying for grad schools (was pretty burned out, owed some money, and had some serious family circumstances literally during my last 3 months in school I had to sort out). Also didn't take the EIT/PE until 1/2 years out. I took an offer which relocated me a couple hundred miles closer to home and moved forward from there.

Financially I have a mortgage but no other debt (got tired of paying rent). I figure my billable hours would probably take a hit while in grad school, but I'd like to be working full time through school to pay down the house and not take out school loans. I did see a nice bump in my billing rate after the license, but am unsure if the grad degree would be as marketable and ROI would definitely be a couple of years (programs I'm looking at would probably cost me 40-60k). I consult in both the private/public sector (assume a 50/50 split in work). For my industry at least, Govt. definitely prefers the license and years of experience. Private sector is hit or miss, depends on the client. I don't sign, stamp, or seal anything. At most, work as a lone wolf, in some larger teams, or manage other mostly non-licensed engineers.

For those consulting engineers out there,

1) What was your degree program in grad school?

2) What if any merits did you see from grad school?

3) Generally, was it worth the time and expense?

4) What if any skills did you pick up from grad school?

5) Any pitfalls / regrets of pursuing the grad degree?

Thanks for your time!


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## Lomarandil (Jan 5, 2015)

I ended up completing an MS in Engineering (Thesis) and an MS in Business (kind of a hybrid MBA-Operations Research program). Otherwise, a lot of my situation is similar (mid 20s, licensed, consulting engineer).

Don't get me wrong -- I learned a ton in grad school -- including taking a few courses that in retrospect I feel should have been part of the undergraduate program. But a lot of the more technical abilities I learned (fatigue/fracture mechanics, soil dynamics, slope stability, finance, market analysis) are abilities I'll likely never get to use in a practical setting. I don't know your specific line of work, but you might end up in a similar boat.

You also raise the point of credential value. Again, industry specific, but know that outside academia, I've found that grad school is most often best seen as a break even, and often viewed as lost experience (especially at the PhD level). The people who value it most may not be the people you're looking to impress (clients, employers).

I don't regret my grad school experience -- it filled in a gap for me, I learned some things that I use now, and there may be many more things I get to use over the course of my career from here out. But I'm glad that the time and money I invested (thanks to research grants, etc) were both much lower than the "typical cost".


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## idrive (Jan 6, 2015)

Lomarandil, thanks for your perspectives and the twin MS's are fairly impressive. If you had to pick one (e.g. engineering or business) which would it be?

It also sounds like the more technical knowledge you picked up may be more specialized- I'm in a fairly similar boat where I probably wouldn't need to use most technical knowledge at the moment beyond undergrad (for which my primary takeaways were how to work hard/smart and critical thinking over specific technical abilities). Typically what I've noticed in my industry is any additional/requisite technical ability can be picked up on the job, personal time, or subcontracted out to specialty firms. Of course the argument could also be made that the additional skills would allow one to start a specialty firm and contract out services  .

From the business side, what sort of skills were you able to pick up and use/still use today?

I do agree with the "typical cost" assessment which is probably the largest deciding factor for me in my circumstance. This is also a bit of a personal goal for me, and quite frankly I have no idea where life will take me 10-20 years down the line so some intangible value there. My friends which went back all had some generous funding and prospects of salary increases heading back into industry (e.g. a no brainer). It's a lot different in product development for a large company versus consulting though so I appreciate your taking the time to respond. My next steps would probably be to research additional funding options which make sense versus funding myself through work/side projects.


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## cnata001 (Jan 6, 2015)

you've pulled 200K in a year and you're in your mid twenties? Does that include 1,000+ hours of OT and getting federal mileage rate on several cross country trips?

Sounds like grad school isn't necessary for you


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## DanHalen (Jan 7, 2015)

cnata001 said:


> you've pulled 200K in a year and you're in your mid twenties? Does that include 1,000+ hours of OT and getting federal mileage rate on several cross country trips?
> 
> Sounds like grad school isn't necessary for you


^This.


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## Jonhnny123 (Jan 7, 2015)

cnata001 said:


> you've pulled 200K in a year and you're in your mid twenties? Does that include 1,000+ hours of OT and getting federal mileage rate on several cross country trips?
> 
> Sounds like grad school isn't necessary for you




No kidding!

By default, any rate increases due to grad school will be a far lower percentage of your salary considering you're easily making well over double the amount of money an average engineer your age makes.

And from my experience, grad school is good to increase your general knowledge, but it doesn't really add monetary value in consulting (unless we're talking some rare or specialized field). The most important thing is having your license and possibly any relevant certifications in your field.

I would think an MBA would be the most profitible as that could help you start your own firm or move up the management chain in a bigger company.


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## Lumber Jim (Jan 7, 2015)

If it sounds too good to be true...

:dunno:


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## idrive (Jan 7, 2015)

I appreciate all of the input, I have a lot more struggling/thinking to do before pulling the trigger on what would benefit me most in the long term. Seems like my situation is fairly uncommon.

To answer some Q's here travel expenses are built into the budgets and expensed to the client (e.g. no surprises and don't exceed the proposed limits). I do OT at times but typically balance that out by taking some time off. Nowhere close to 1000+ hrs OT per year given the standard year is 2080. Of course there's non-billable work such as writing proposals but there is compensation for that. I live in a very high col area and most of my colleagues around my age working in the tech sector with management or business responsibilities hover around 100-150k+/yr before stock options. My friends in manufacturing are around 70-90k/yr. Same age group. Differences in personal interests and industry choices.


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## idrive (Jan 7, 2015)

Has anyone gone the MBA route/what sort of educational merits have you carried over into your work? I do heavily enjoy the technical side hence pursuing the PE but equally enjoy business development. Management I am ok with but typically prefer working as a lone wolf or in smaller close knit teams. Not really willing to go 1099 at this point in my life.


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## Lumber Jim (Jan 9, 2015)

idrive said:


> ...100-150k+/yr before stock options...




United Arab Emirates Dirham?  sorry, I hear early to mid twenties and think "entry level".

What industry are you in and what location? To me it sounds like you have a pretty good gig already. I wouldn't think the graduate degree would be necessary unless you simply want another credential or want to get out of your current situation and minimize the risk in the process.

(I might go the MBA route in the future,say within the next ten years, but for now I think the experience and time in the trenches will be worth more in the long run. I too haven't decided what I want to be when I grow up yet either)

Specifically, what doors do you think a master's degree would open for you?


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## idrive (Jan 9, 2015)

Yeah, I should clarify- mid-late 20's depending on how you slice it. So 4-9 years of experience depending on working through school/grad school/job changes/traveling after undergrad. Entry level for my cohort graduating from undergrad around here was 65-75k/yr base at that time (feels like ages ago). The upper end (120-150k+) are people I know who ended up going into IT, CS, tech-related fields. Engineering degrees and experience opened a lot of doors for them. Some consult, but again completely different industry with different rate structures, business models, etc. I do know some people in other industries who own their own consulting firms, but they're a bit older (in their early/mid-30's). Was hoping to get some feedback from consulting mechanical engineers working as mechanical engineers which is closer to my situation but of course not exact (e.g. I don't sit in front of a computer running AutoCAD 2080 hrs/yr).

Don't want to disclose location or industry, but around here decent single family homes go for anywhere around 800k-1mil+. Salaries scale to match, but the dollar still doesn't go that far if you're looking to own. I know more than a handful of people across industries who relocated due to family reasons (ex: had a kid and wanted to move closer to their family support network). They're now sitting on some acreage in low col states telecommuting with the same cashflow. Fortunately or unfortunately I'm basically staying out here as I relocated to be close to family.

At this point in time, from my perspective and situation, a grad degree probably wouldn't open more doors for me. Again, it's also a bit of a personal goal/unsure where life would take me 10+ years from now. If I look at it objectively from a cold-call/proposal submittal it's also a shot in the dark (e.g. you get weighted for having the license, and you'd get weighted for having a MS - the distribution would depend on the entity). Again, not all work comes from this avenue though; clients do call looking for work, expanding scope, etc. My rates would prob go up a bit with a grad degree, but I'd also probably be doing more business development as time in industry increases (e.g. mostly non-billables) so the absolute income level would balance itself out to probably the same amount. Not sure if this was clear, but I'm not in a salaried/tiered corporate environment with distinct levels and pay grades so the model of get grad degree = promotion + raise doesn't apply. May just end up waiting this out within the next 10 years  .

Thanks for all of the insight.


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## Lumber Jim (Jan 10, 2015)

I don't understand why you need to hide the location or industry... but whatever. If it is ultra specialized or one of many high cost of living areas then this would justify the higher wages or higher consult fees.

I guess what I am saying is good for you! If you think that an added credential could indeed raise your billable hourly rate, then justify the business plan (that's what you're asking about after all...) and go for it. that is to say, include lost wages for studying, the value of you free time, education costs, market value of the credential, and time to recover the money you sink or lose while you get to a higher ladder. (more or less what you have highlighted) if your industry is so specialized that the time and experience is more valuable and you want to stay in that industry then pick up more applicable work to highlight and market your skill set.

once you put value on either path (what you value), then I think you have your answer.

I wish you the best of luck in what ever you choose!


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## idrive (Jan 10, 2015)

Thanks Jim, I wish you the best as well.

Not trying to hide anything, if you're truly curious feel free to PM me. Some reasons in short are: 1) this is a public forum, 2) do a bit of side work (completely legal/ethical), and 3) live a pretty humble low-key life/below my means which ties back to (1). I take everyone's advice to heart otherwise I wouldn't have solicited to this forum. That paired with the cross section of people I interact with in life left me with more questions unanswered  . Who knows, I may bump into someone in the exact same situation tomorrow who would be kind enough to throw out some fresh ideas I'd never considered before.

The expertise and ideas floated around here drove me to pursue and successfully obtain a PE so hopefully the advice floated here someday will help someone else out in a similar situation.


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## Lomarandil (Jan 12, 2015)

idrive said:


> Lomarandil, thanks for your perspectives and the twin MS's are fairly impressive. If you had to pick one (e.g. engineering or business) which would it be?
> 
> It also sounds like the more technical knowledge you picked up may be more specialized- I'm in a fairly similar boat where I probably wouldn't need to use most technical knowledge at the moment beyond undergrad (for which my primary takeaways were how to work hard/smart and critical thinking over specific technical abilities). Typically what I've noticed in my industry is any additional/requisite technical ability can be picked up on the job, personal time, or subcontracted out to specialty firms. Of course the argument could also be made that the additional skills would allow one to start a specialty firm and contract out services  .
> 
> ...


Sorry for the late response --

It's tough to say, but I'd have to lean toward the business degree. Like you said, specialized skills are relatively simple to pick up on the job. And I feel my engineering degree was more heavily weighted toward learning specialized analysis methods, while the business degree was broader (almost as much about philosophies of management and leadership as anything else).

The most directly applicable benefit of the business degree was definitely in communication and presentation. I happened to pick up some skills relating to optimization/operations research/industrial engineering as well, but that was a result of my specific school. Also learned a lot about finance, management, accounting/business operations, and marketing. I don't apply all of those in my engineering role, but they've also turned out to be pretty handy personally.

Don't discount the personal goal factor -- if that is important to you, it will be easier to complete a degree earlier in your career than later. Of course, it's also worth making sure that you are really looking for a degree, and not just additional learning (in which case I'd recommend some self-study, MOOCs or just auditing a few interesting classes).


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## Dleg (Jan 13, 2015)

There's more to these types of decisions than the pure bottom line rate of return. My only regret about my Masters (MS in eng.) is not doing it sooner in my career. I am not in your same field, salary range, or age bracket, but I will say that I gained a lot of personal satisfaction from the work required to obtain my degree. I personally don't worry too much about how much it cost me. At your salary level, I would worry even less.

If you want it, get it. There will be no better time in your life to do something like than than the present. Who knows what could happen if you wait. For me, it was a wife, kids, and all kinds of other stuff that delayed me when the MS would have actually been quite beneficial.


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## idrive (Jan 14, 2015)

Thanks for the insights guys. I will definitely start auditing some classes this year as a personal goal to see if the fit is good/things "feel" right. I've been thinking about grad school on and off for a couple of years now so the "try it before you buy it" / no better time than the present resounds well with me. And I agree that the cost shouldn't factor in as much as it does. I think the underlying mental block in my head is top MBA programs would probably exceed the $60k range and that's a good ways towards a downpayment/outright purchase of a rental property. Or a new sports car and some blow. Just kidding on the blow, but $60k when you're young is a lot of chop  .


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## Lomarandil (Jan 14, 2015)

Honestly, I wouldn't put too much worry about the "Top MBA" programs unless you're looking to wholesale transition to the business world. Finding a good program is important, but as an engineer I'd be in it for the knowledge, not the credential value.


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## Dleg (Jan 15, 2015)

^I agree. MBAs are a dime a dozen and don't particularly impress me or many other engineer managers I know, but then again I am in a totally different field than you are. You could probably get the full benefit of the learning from one of the on-line diploma mill programs, at a much lower cost and from home at nights. Don't discount that option - online learning is really very effective, and I believe that some of the "diploma mills" have actually matched or even exceeded some of the big-name schools in terms of the quality of the experience. Unless you are aiming for a career in top management, hopping from company to company as a senior manager/CEO type, no one is going to even see what school your MBA was from. What school you get an engineering masters from might matter a little more, but in general if the school is ABET accredited, the programs are all going to be good. I went for a name brand MS purely because of the credibility that particular school has with my prospective employers, but even at that, it didn't cost anywhere near the amount you are thinking for an MBA. So in other words, compromise is possible.

Also - I strongly recommend you do not "audit" any classes, but take them for credit, instead. Otherwise, you are wasting your time, IMO. Your motivation level will be entirely different, and you are likely to work harder and learn a lot more. It's too easy to skip assignments, do a half-hearted job, or even give up when you've got nothing at stake. A lot of schools offer graduate certificate programs that you can start with, that offer something like 4 to 6 of the courses that would be needed for an MS, without full registration (no GRE, etc.). Later, you can transition to the full masters program with credit for every course taken so far, or just stop with the certificate, which is also something worthwhile on a resume.


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## idrive (Jan 28, 2015)

Apologies for the delay have been busy closing out a couple of projects at work. From the feedback above I've decided to pursue a credential program at a local top "brand name" uni for engineering/business with courses transferable to a masters if I decide to take it to the next level. It's a couple of classes commitment at the grad level somewhere around $5k total for 1 year part time ramping up in a couple of months. The credential is directly applicable to my line of work which is also nice for quals. Thanks again for all of the insights and feedback, I had not even considered/looking into this option prior.


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