# Deciding Between TF & MD



## Clydeman (Dec 2, 2010)

Hello All!

I signed up officially for the PE earlier this week so I am officially comitted. For me it has been 14 years since graduation so I have not looked at most of this stuff in a long time.

Anyway I am wondering whether to do the Thermal/Fluids emphasis or Machine Design. I was pretty good (and enjoyed) thermo, fluids and heat trasfer in school. The machine design class were we covered Shigley was not good (the class ended up focusing on projects rather than the text book)

Based on the comments in the "PE Mechanical October, 2010" thread it sounds as though the PM section for T&amp;F was pretty brutal. Am I better off trying for MD (is the content easier)?

If I choose T&amp;F can I rely on MERMs or do I need to study textbooks extensively?

Thanks for the help!


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## navyasw02 (Dec 2, 2010)

Nathan Satter said:


> Hello All!
> I signed up officially for the PE earlier this week so I am officially comitted. For me it has been 14 years since graduation so I have not looked at most of this stuff in a long time.
> 
> Anyway I am wondering whether to do the Thermal/Fluids emphasis or Machine Design. I was pretty good (and enjoyed) thermo, fluids and heat trasfer in school. The machine design class were we covered Shigley was not good (the class ended up focusing on projects rather than the text book)
> ...


I had the same debate and eventually I settled on MD. I initially felt better about MD, but after studying for TF I felt equally comfortable with the material. It's really a toss up. If you can, I'd recommend doing one of the practice exams to see which one you like better. The MD section practice exam I would say is heavier on the actual statics/dynamics/kinematics/solid mechanics concepts than on the stuff in Shigley's. For the true MD stuff, I think every practice exam had a spring problem, some of them had bolt design, some had fatigue and cyclic stress problems, sometimes a basic gear question, all of them had at least one basic welding problem.


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## Clydeman (Dec 2, 2010)

I have ordered the NCEES 2010 Fluid and Thermal test (unfortunately it looks like they now sell the three tests serparately). I also ordered the Lindeburg practice PE exam which I have read mixed reviews about.

Also I already have MERMs (of course) and companion "Practice Problems for the Mechanical Engineering PE Exam". I actually get quite frustrated with some of the practice problems in this text because I am pretty sure some of them are far too complicated and length to be on the test. Isn't it somewhat of a waste of study time to burn 30 minutes to an hour on one problem?

How does one go about getting older NCEES tests (2008 and older)?


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## navyasw02 (Dec 2, 2010)

Nathan Satter said:


> I have ordered the NCEES 2010 Fluid and Thermal test (unfortunately it looks like they now sell the three tests serparately). I also ordered the Lindeburg practice PE exam which I have read mixed reviews about.
> Also I already have MERMs (of course) and companion "Practice Problems for the Mechanical Engineering PE Exam". I actually get quite frustrated with some of the practice problems in this text because I am pretty sure some of them are far too complicated and length to be on the test. Isn't it somewhat of a waste of study time to burn 30 minutes to an hour on one problem?
> 
> How does one go about getting older NCEES tests (2008 and older)?


Interesting, they broke up the sample exam now to get more money. I wonder if they're new questions or just the same as the 2008 ones. NCEES used to sell the 2008 exam on their study materials page. You can probably find it on the yard sale section here or on ebay. 2001 is harder to come by and I think it's not as good as the 2008, but still worth having. To figure out which one you want to do, I'd start with the 2001 and do the AM and both TF and MD pm sessions. Save the 2008 for a few weeks before the exam. The Practice problems book you have is actually pretty good. They're harder than the actual, but good preparation and more straightforward than some of the other sources. See the reference roundup post for more info on the reference books.


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## Relvinim (Dec 3, 2010)

Nathan Satter said:


> I have ordered the NCEES 2010 Fluid and Thermal test (unfortunately it looks like they now sell the three tests serparately). I also ordered the Lindeburg practice PE exam which I have read mixed reviews about.
> Also I already have MERMs (of course) and companion "Practice Problems for the Mechanical Engineering PE Exam". I actually get quite frustrated with some of the practice problems in this text because I am pretty sure some of them are far too complicated and length to be on the test. Isn't it somewhat of a waste of study time to burn 30 minutes to an hour on one problem?
> 
> How does one go about getting older NCEES tests (2008 and older)?


I personnally favored the Six Minute Solutions booklet. The problem is you need to know which depth you want to take before you buy one of them since they are separated by depth. THe Machine Design had lots of mistakes on it but I still learned alot.


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## MadDawg (Dec 4, 2010)

Nathan Satter said:


> Hello All!
> I signed up officially for the PE earlier this week so I am officially comitted. For me it has been 14 years since graduation so I have not looked at most of this stuff in a long time.
> 
> Anyway I am wondering whether to do the Thermal/Fluids emphasis or Machine Design. I was pretty good (and enjoyed) thermo, fluids and heat trasfer in school. The machine design class were we covered Shigley was not good (the class ended up focusing on projects rather than the text book)
> ...



How did you sign up for the PE but did not have to choose already between the afternoon sections? When I signed up I had to choose...

Anyway, in my opinion (which doesn't count for much since I don't know if I passed yet), I think you should take T&amp;F based on liking thermo, fluids, and heat xfer in school. If you don't have a strong background in machine design you're going to have to spend a lot more time preparing for the exam (and preparing in a topic you might not enjoy).

I thought the afternoon T&amp;F was easier than the morning this past October, and as you'll read on these boards the test changes between each offering, so next time the MD might be awful and the T&amp;F really relatively easy.

Good luck, and hopefully i'm not taking the test with you in April. :mail-296:


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## navyasw02 (Dec 4, 2010)

MadDawg said:


> Nathan Satter said:
> 
> 
> > Hello All!
> ...


I think there's a window where you can still change out before you're locked in. I remember that from the last cycle because I was on the fence.

I agree though, do the subject you *like*. I was good with T&amp;F, but I went with MD because I got to the point where I'd rather be waterboarded than look at another damn enthalpy problem.


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## HerrKaLeun (Dec 5, 2010)

I would whichever is closer to your daily work. In my opinion MD and T/f are pretty far apart. i can see how someone is unsure about if one would take HVAC or T/F. At least for me MD is like a complete opposite discipline to HVAC/TF.

the test has many questions that require some everyday knowledge. some questions you can answer in a second if you work int he field. so if your work is MD, do MD. If your work is T/F, do that. If you buy the Lindeburgh sample exam, you can see the different disciplines and decide. If you can get a 2008 NCEES exam, that is a good indicator too (i can sell you mine the day I get the letter that I passed


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 6, 2010)

Nathan Satter said:


> Hello All!
> I signed up officially for the PE earlier this week so I am officially comitted. For me it has been 14 years since graduation so I have not looked at most of this stuff in a long time.
> 
> Anyway I am wondering whether to do the Thermal/Fluids emphasis or Machine Design. I was pretty good (and enjoyed) thermo, fluids and heat trasfer in school. The machine design class were we covered Shigley was not good (the class ended up focusing on projects rather than the text book)
> ...


You sound like me four years ago.

MD professor was a complete moron, so the MD classes I had were a waste, but that was what I was interested in. Got my Masters in 1991, and the thermo professors were awesome, so i left truly understanding that.

Fast forword to late 2006, and I'm trying to decide, MD or TF. My work had been most near MD, and I had an interest in it. tried a few problems in the thermo section, but had completely forgotten everything I know.

So, I went MD.

Benefit of that is you can take in the MERM and Shigley's, and pretty much pull it off. I took a few other books, but really didn't use them.


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## HerrKaLeun (Dec 6, 2010)

You should evaluate if your daily work experience in MD is relevant to the test.

In many cases you will be able to guess if one of the 4 options is reasonable.

For example, if you need to calculate piping choices, with experience in the filed you know that 2 of the 4 options are completely unreasonable. this helps you verifying your result. If you didn't have that experience all 4 options would look the same.


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## Clydeman (Dec 6, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Nathan Satter said:
> 
> 
> > Hello All!
> ...


Funny I am like you but the opposite. I started out my career in "heavy industry" working at Hyster and another similar company (incidently where PEs were quite common among the MEs). More recently I have been working designing consumer products where heat transfer/fluids is far more applicable than anything in Shigley.

Do you guys think that you forget more in 14 years than say 6 years? Sadly I have had few need to crack the textbooks over my last 14 years (and 6 companies). So for the most part I have forgotten everthing (save for simple statics and stress cals which I still do on occation).

Anyway I have been hitting it pretty hard, getting up at 5:00 am every morning and then studying in the evening (as that is one of the few quiet times in my household). In college I tended to overprepare. It helped with my confidence level, and am appraching this test in the same way. I just hope I can maintain this level of study over the next 4 months witout getting burned out.


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## HerrKaLeun (Dec 6, 2010)

Nathan Satter said:


> Funny I am like you but the opposite. I started out my career in "heavy industry" working at Hyster and another similar company (incidently where PEs were quite common among the MEs). More recently I have been working designing consumer products where heat transfer/fluids is far more applicable than anything in Shigley.
> Do you guys think that you forget more in 14 years than say 6 years? Sadly I have had few need to crack the textbooks over my last 14 years (and 6 companies). So for the most part I have forgotten everthing (save for simple statics and stress cals which I still do on occation).
> 
> Anyway I have been hitting it pretty hard, getting up at 5:00 am every morning and then studying in the evening (as that is one of the few quiet times in my household). In college I tended to overprepare. It helped with my confidence level, and am appraching this test in the same way. I just hope I can maintain this level of study over the next 4 months witout getting burned out.


Ironically the higher you climb on the career ladder (which shows you are a good engineer), the less you actually deal with things that are part of the test. As a young engineer you likely do some calculations every day. but after 14 years you are more like a manager and have those young engineers do the calculations for you.


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## navyasw02 (Dec 6, 2010)

HerrKaLeun said:


> Ironically the higher you climb on the career ladder (which shows you are a good engineer), the less you actually deal with things that are part of the test. As a young engineer you likely do some calculations every day. but after 14 years you are more like a manager and have those young engineers do the calculations for you.


That's usually the case in all jobs. The higher you are the less you actually "do" and the more you're responsible for. By the time you're at the top, you just go to meetings, think lofty thoughts, and someone else writes them down and executes your vision.


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## HerrKaLeun (Dec 7, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> That's usually the case in all jobs. The higher you are the less you actually "do" and the more you're responsible for. By the time you're at the top, you just go to meetings, think lofty thoughts, and someone else writes them down and executes your vision.


Except in most other professions you don't need to write a test to be in management. For an MBA it doesn't matter if he still can do the calculations...there is no license required to juggle billions of $ :mf_followthroughfart:


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## navyasw02 (Dec 7, 2010)

HerrKaLeun said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> > That's usually the case in all jobs. The higher you are the less you actually "do" and the more you're responsible for. By the time you're at the top, you just go to meetings, think lofty thoughts, and someone else writes them down and executes your vision.
> ...


Are most managers licensed PEs? I'm in the Navy so my situation is a bit different.


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## MadDawg (Dec 7, 2010)

navyasw02 said:


> HerrKaLeun said:
> 
> 
> > navyasw02 said:
> ...



My managers aren't PE's, but I'm in an exempt industry...


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## DynaMechEng (Jan 2, 2011)

Nathan Satter said:


> Hello All!
> I signed up officially for the PE earlier this week so I am officially comitted. For me it has been 14 years since graduation so I have not looked at most of this stuff in a long time.
> 
> Anyway I am wondering whether to do the Thermal/Fluids emphasis or Machine Design. I was pretty good (and enjoyed) thermo, fluids and heat trasfer in school. The machine design class were we covered Shigley was not good (the class ended up focusing on projects rather than the text book)
> ...


I think comfort level is everything, and if you enjoy it, you're probably comfortable with it. I did my masters in Machine Design, so naturally, I was more comfortable with that. Also, my study methods may be a little different, but I didn't "study" textbooks to prep for the exam. I worked hundreds of problems and looked at textbooks when I was stuck or needed conceptual help. I brought MERM, Shigley, &amp; Mark's to the exam and passed first try. Less is more with reference material IMHO.


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## tmacier (Jan 3, 2011)

I took thermo/fluids and failed it in October- it was tough, really tough.

My advice is to get your hands on the NCEES sample problems 2008 edition (must be able to buy it new/used somewhere) and do some sample problems in each area.

Once you pick an area stay focused!

Tim


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## chaocl (Jan 3, 2011)

tmacier said:


> I took thermo/fluids and failed it in October- it was tough, really tough.My advice is to get your hands on the NCEES sample problems 2008 edition (must be able to buy it new/used somewhere) and do some sample problems in each area.
> 
> Once you pick an area stay focused!
> 
> Tim


Don't worry, you will pass it next time. By the way can you give us your am/pm score? Thanks.


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## Clydeman (Jan 3, 2011)

tmacier said:


> I took thermo/fluids and failed it in October- it was tough, really tough.My advice is to get your hands on the NCEES sample problems 2008 edition (must be able to buy it new/used somewhere) and do some sample problems in each area.
> 
> Once you pick an area stay focused!
> 
> Tim


I am curious what your study approach was.

How many hours of study did you put in and over how many months? Did you work that many problems?


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## tmacier (Jan 3, 2011)

Nathan Satter said:


> I am curious what your study approach was.
> How many hours of study did you put in and over how many months? Did you work that many problems?


I took a refresher course at a local college and spend three months preparing.

Mostly working thru problems and reteaching myself many areas that I had forgotten -

Total time studying was about 150 hours.

Not to make excuses, but to offer myself some mental justification - I was pretty busy with work 3rd quarter, we had just moved into a new home and my wife gave birth to our daughter the week before the exam -

Jan, Feb and March are pretty slow personaly so I have begun the process.

I need to focus on the heat tranfer arena -

I spent alot of time working thru many problems (NCEES and SMS) - I plan to purchase some more problems and continue work them all -

This method forces you to learn were everything is in your referances -

Let the fun begin!

Tim


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## mechitsimple (Jan 4, 2011)

Tim,

Good luck with the exam this time, I am sure you will pass.

I took the same T&amp;F exam in October and I passed (with a score of 80). I prepared for 3-4 hrs a day for 1.5 months. I felt that I did well in the morning session of the exam and I did badly in the afternoon session. The afternoon session was much harder in the sense that there was not much time and the problems were hard! At the end of the exam, I felt that even if I had put in more preparation, it may not have been possible to do better in the afternoon session as some of the problems were too hard to solve given the time constraints.

Based on my experience, it helps a lot to do well in the morning session where the problems are shorter and relatively easier. It is also absolutely critical that you know how to find information quickly from the books you have, and maybe its a good idea to just take a few books with you.



tmacier said:


> Nathan Satter said:
> 
> 
> > I am curious what your study approach was.
> ...


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## Clydeman (Jan 4, 2011)

tmacier said:


> Nathan Satter said:
> 
> 
> > I am curious what your study approach was.
> ...


Wow that is a lot of stress having a baby and being busy with work. I sympathize.

I started studying very seriously toward the end of November. I find (for my schedule and having a family) it works best for me to get up really early (around 4:30 or 5) and put in a few hours every morning and then try to study more at night. I put in around 100 hours in December (got up early every morning except for 2 days). Being 14 years out of college, I feel I might need to study more than most.

I am no expert (as I have not passed this thing yet) but I find that making flash cards works pretty well. As I am reading through the chapters, I make flash cards covering key concepts or equations. Then I review the flash cards throughout the day (and then re-review a few days later). I am no expert at learning but it seems as though this will help to get concepts more into long term memory rather than short term. So I will get out the flash cards at work and go over them in my mind (while I am working on things in Solidworks, running on the treadmill or during other lulls in my day). I got this idea from the PPI PE Exam Flash Card App for the iPhone.

Also I checked out the ASME PE review courses from the library. I am not that impressed. Some of the lectures are okay, but some are downright horrible. I would definitely not spend the $500 ASME is asking for them.

I start a PE refresher course at the local university tonight.

I am currently going over heat transfer in MERMS. It seems to me that this area is not covered well. Also I do not feel the practice problems are very good (and there are not many of them). I am going to have to go find my Incropera/Dewitt textbook.


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## Clydeman (Jan 4, 2011)

mechitsimple said:


> Tim,
> Good luck with the exam this time, I am sure you will pass.
> 
> I took the same T&amp;F exam in October and I passed (with a score of 80). I prepared for 3-4 hrs a day for 1.5 months. I felt that I did well in the morning session of the exam and I did badly in the afternoon session. The afternoon session was much harder in the sense that there was not much time and the problems were hard! At the end of the exam, I felt that even if I had put in more preparation, it may not have been possible to do better in the afternoon session as some of the problems were too hard to solve given the time constraints.
> ...


So you were able to cover depth sections with MERMS alone? You did not need thermo and fluids textbooks.


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## principal (Jan 4, 2011)

Nathan Satter said:


> mechitsimple said:
> 
> 
> > Tim,
> ...


Nathan-

I passed T/F, I thought MERM was sufficient for the depth sections. I had a fluids text that I did not use. I wanted a thermo book when I was studying but didn't think it was necessary. I did buy some steam tables...


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## MadDawg (Jan 4, 2011)

principal said:


> Nathan Satter said:
> 
> 
> > mechitsimple said:
> ...


I passed T&amp;F as well and used the MERM for 79/80 questions on the test and 99% of my (non-sample exam) studying. The only other reference I used was a steam tables book, which I definitely could have just used the back of the MERM but didn't feel like flipping back and forth.

Textbooks are more driven towards deriving formulas and the theory behind it--stuff that is hard to ask in multiple choice format and even harder to do within the time constraints of the exam. Look through the NCEES-provided breakdown of the test topics and look through the NCEES sample problems and you'll get a good feel for the kind of questions you can expect.


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## mechitsimple (Jan 4, 2011)

I used the MERM alone.



Nathan Satter said:


> mechitsimple said:
> 
> 
> > Tim,
> ...


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## tmacier (Jan 4, 2011)

I agree that the MERM should be enough -

I did poorly on the HEAT MASS areas - I know I was week there - just need to study more.

Anyone use the Passing Zone as a studying tool?

I only have six minute solutions and the NCEES practice problems. I would really would like more problems to work similiar to ones in the PE.

I am not a rocket scientist engineer so I need to work problem after problem to drill in the concepts.

Tim


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## DynaMechEng (Jan 4, 2011)

tmacier said:


> I agree that the MERM should be enough -
> I did poorly on the HEAT MASS areas - I know I was week there - just need to study more.
> 
> Anyone use the Passing Zone as a studying tool?
> ...


I did MD and passed in October, and the key for me was exactly what you said... work problem after problem until you know it inside and out. There's really only so many different types of problems they can ask...work enough of them and you'll be fine.

I studied for three months and used a tiered study method. The first month I studied 10 hours a week, the second month 20 hours a week, and the third month 40 hours a week. That's 300 hours. My wife hated that I stayed home every weekend and studied instead of going out and doing things, but she understood that she was better off if I put the time in and did it once instead of doing it again and again.

Best of luck in April! I'm sure you'll knock it out of the park.


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## wongdaisiu (Jan 4, 2011)

I took the T/F and passed. To be honest, I guessed on a lot of it. There was a concept that NCEES harped on that I did not learn back at U, but was mentioned in MERM. I brought a few of my old text books mainly for the refrigerant tables, and steam tables were easier to use. Both Lindeburgh practice books did have long problems and definitely were not indicative of what was on the exam. However, when you are looking at a power cycle or a boiler feedwater system, NCEES will give you a portion of it, and you will need to know what the assumptions are, so having those huge problems beat it into you is a plus.

Good luck.


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## Clydeman (Jan 5, 2011)

tmacier said:


> I agree that the MERM should be enough -
> I did poorly on the HEAT MASS areas - I know I was week there - just need to study more.
> 
> Anyone use the Passing Zone as a studying tool?
> ...


There are brand new 2010 NCEES Sample exams (unfortunately they now break them up into three separate books, by depth, to make more money). So if you get this new exam and mange to track down the 2001 &amp; 2008 test, that should give you quite a few problems to work. This combined with the SMS books should keep you plenty busy.

Also pull out your heat transfer and thermo textbooks and try working some of the more simply problems out of there.

I am going to make sure I know power cycles inside and out. Sure they are long (and you will get an abbreviated version on the test) but you really need to feel comfortable and be able to jump into those problems at any point and solve for the remainder.

I think I am like you in that I have to solve a lot of problems and feel very comfortable for my confidence level to be high.


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## Trev... P.E. (Jan 5, 2011)

Nathan Satter said:


> tmacier said:
> 
> 
> > I agree that the MERM should be enough -
> ...


The 2010 exams are the exact same questions as the 2008 books, just broken up by afternoon session. So now you have to buy 3 books if you want all the questions. The morning session is the same across all three.


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