# Basement 2.0



## Road Guy (Jun 22, 2016)

ughh.. so wife mysteriously found some $ and wants to do some work on our basement.

Her reasoning is that our same model house with a finished basement just sold for $100K more than ours appraised for.  I don't really want to deal with this but it would be nice to have some more room &amp; my daughter has said she would be interested in staying home for the 1st year of college if she had a "suite" in the basement..

Still not sure I am going to go through with this again, but this time around I am going to contract out some more stuff like framing and sheetrock to save some time.. anyways... Here is a link to my previous project if anyone wants to hire me out?



I have two areas in the basement that have plumbing and I am trying to figure out if both are set up for a full bathroom or maybe one is for a small kitchen  / bar?  These areas are close but not close enough to be the same room.

The one picture that has two pipes the same size the pipes are 4 IN and the other photos one pipe is 4 IN pipe and a 2.5 IN Pipe. I am thinking that the first photo is the one set up for the bathroom?

 I haven't looked at the codes  but I am assuming a 4 IN pipe is required for the toilet and shower? Or can you get by with a smaller drain pipe for a shower? I just did this 5 years ago  but cant remember!


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## P-E (Jun 23, 2016)

RG don't do it unless you're sure you'll never get water down there. I've seen/heard of too many finished basement disasters.   Many just from bad plumbing.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (Jun 23, 2016)

Basement? What's a basement? Lol.

Seriously, are basements counted in the square footage of living space? Do they have to be converted into a living space to count? Just curious if this is similar to us "no basement southerners" who sometimes convert a garage into a room.

P-E, is the concern from water from leaking plumbing getting into the basement and flooding it? Sump pump wouldn't work? I thought basements were supposed to have sump pumps. Then again, I know nothing about basements.


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## matt267 PE (Jun 23, 2016)

SNAPE/SMOTT PE said:


> are basements counted in the square footage of living space? Do they have to be converted into a living space to count?


In my area, basements can be counted as living space if they are finished to code with permits pulled. Therefore the town can charge you more on property taxes.



SNAPE/SMOTT PE said:


> water from leaking plumbing getting into the basement and flooding it?


Leaking plumbing is a risk no matter what. Flooding from rivers "shouldn't" be an issue if the house is out of a flood zone.



SNAPE/SMOTT PE said:


> I thought basements were supposed to have sump pumps


If the groundwater table is high, the basement should/would have a sump pump. If there is a low groundwater table you wouldn't have to worry about it. It's also important to make sure gutter downspouts empty away from the house and that the grading is sloped away from the house as well.


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## Road Guy (Jun 23, 2016)

Denver is basically the desert and I am far enough away from any water sources to worry about any of that....

The place I live is much more permit heavy than the south. Most builders won't do stuff without a permit- they have all been scared / trained to make sure the govt knows what happened to you house.


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## MA_PE (Jun 23, 2016)

bad plumbing is going to cause a problem whether it's in a basement or not.  Those stubs certainly look like the house was built with the intent of adding something.  Are these connected to a vent somewhere?  The two side by side 4 in. pipe seems to be an odd configuration.  It might have intended to be an in-law apartment with a kitchen and a bathroom.  Is your house a "typical" configuration in the neighborhood?  Maybe go to an open house of the same style and see what they have done in the basement.  If the developer built a number of the same style houses at teh same time, a finished basement might have been an option and you can see what the intent of the layout was.  The original owners of this house may not have had the resources to go with a full finished basement but paid to have the rough plumbing installed.

You might call some local contractors and see if they are familiar with this configuration and could offer some insight on the best approach to finish it off.   The intent is not have to hammer the slab and use the stubs where they are.


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## Road Guy (Jun 23, 2016)

Crap I should have went and looked at the one that just sold while it was "on the market". They took down all the photos (but they didn't show much of the basement online).

It's defin stubbed out for basement living- I just can't figure out the two 4" pipes. They are in the easier bathroom construction location but I don't see vent pipes close by.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 23, 2016)

P-E said:


> RG don't do it unless you're sure you'll never get water down there. I've seen/heard of too many finished basement disasters.   Many just from bad plumbing.


To echo what others have said above, certain home-owner insurance policies will have add-ons to protect extra items of value in a finished basement environment.  I think we have something like $20k worth of protection.

I'll send the photos over to LadyFox.  As an enviro, she might know about the (2) pipe configuration.


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## MA_PE (Jun 23, 2016)

Road Guy said:


> Crap I should have went and looked at the one that just sold while it was "on the market". They took down all the photos (but they didn't show much of the basement online).
> 
> It's defin stubbed out for basement living- I just can't figure out the two 4" pipes. They are in the easier bathroom construction location but I don't see vent pipes close by.


I know you hate them but you might consider calling the listing realtor on that house and ask for the photos or their recollection on the layout of the basement.  Worth a phone call.


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## jeb6294 (Jun 23, 2016)

You can also try googling the address. Sometimes the pictures will still be on a realty website somewhere, i.e. Zillow.

This house has a sump pump but my old house did not. There were floor drains but the storm sewer was lower thN the FF elevation. 

As said, if you want to count the square footage you have to get everything permitted who h means it'd have to have an emergency egress so so drying more than those crappy little 18" x 24" basement windows.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 24, 2016)

jeb6294 said:


> As said, if you want to count the square footage you have to get everything permitted who h means it'd have to have an emergency egress so so drying more than those crappy little 18" x 24" basement windows.


This is how it is in WI.  Our finished basement is not included in our sq. ft. calculation.


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## MA_PE (Jun 24, 2016)

On a similar note, a friend just told me his brother is selling a house in CT and he's running into issues because he'd done some renovations eithout getting permits over the years and the physical appraisel didn't jive with the assessor's database so he's got to pursue permits now and he's going to end up paying some fines to clear the house for sale.


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## Road Guy (Jun 24, 2016)

All the basements in our hood were set up to be living spaces, weve got full size windows even my fat ass could climb out of easily.  I've got a contractor coming to give a quote next week, Ill just ask him.  Wife called the realtor and she was going to send us some pictures directly but it sounded like the previous owners used the one that I think is the bathroom as the bathroom and she said she didn't think there were other pipes roughed in and that area in their house was left as storage since that is where the sump pump and rayon gas remover thing was located..

Id like to not get a permit since then they will just raise the assessment of my house.  I can always just draw up a plan and stamp it with my pe-ness if I get questioned about it later


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## Road Guy (Jun 29, 2016)

looks like this is going nowhere fast! (&amp; I'm happy)

met with 2 contactors, price to frame and sheetrock just under 1000 SF =  $20,000 (both estimates basically the same)? &amp; That's essentially only rough in of plumbing and electrical?  They said if I didn't pull a permit I could pay them around $15K just to frame and rock it and let me run the wires, but both wanted cash (different cons, I mean Residential Contractors)

No Friggin Way.. I know real estate in Denver is crazy but I will just do it myself if need be, but $%%^#$!^^^&amp;&amp;!!!


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## Ship Wreck PE (Jun 29, 2016)

I finished my 400 sq ft bonus room above garage totally by myself in 6 months for $3,500.00 and it increased my homes value $45,000.00, and I can't spell "permit"


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## Road Guy (Jun 29, 2016)

Yeah this is why I normally just do things myself, if you click the link at the beginning of this thread I did all that work for around 15,000 and I did 80% of it myself. On that one though I did have to add a separate HVAC system


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## Dleg (Jun 30, 2016)

Well, cosntruction workers gotta live in $500k houses, too.


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## knight1fox3 (Jun 30, 2016)

Dleg said:


> Well, cosntruction *contractors *workers gotta live in $500k houses, too.


Fixt.


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## Road Guy (Jun 30, 2016)

Ive done enough of that type of work to respect the craft, but I think the contractors look at the neighborhood and figure everyone is rich and can afford it. 

My engineers estimate for materials is around $4K to frame, rock, rough in electrical. so I figure usually about  twice the materials is what people normally charge to do the work, Plus it pretty wide open. I could frame it in a weekend with my kids help probably (not counting the ceiling)

I just don't want to spend all my free time on this like I did my last time, I mean there are only 3 to 4 months left until ski season


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## willsee (Jul 1, 2016)

Road Guy said:


> Ive done enough of that type of work to respect the craft, but I think the contractors look at the neighborhood and figure everyone is rich and can afford it.
> 
> My engineers estimate for materials is around $4K to frame, rock, rough in electrical. so I figure usually about  twice the materials is what people normally charge to do the work, Plus it pretty wide open. I could frame it in a weekend with my kids help probably (not counting the ceiling)
> 
> I just don't want to spend all my free time on this like I did my last time, I mean there are only 3 to 4 months left until ski season


Do what you can then hire out the rest.


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## Road Guy (Aug 9, 2016)

So I went and visited the good people at the permit office yesterday afternoon..

Holy Christ this is just dumb, they will only issue me a full permit for the complete basement and to get the permit they make me pay sales tax on all the items that will go into the project?

I know for a fact they issue developers “grading only” permits so they can do some of the work while they finish out there building plans.. I wanted to just get a permit for rough in (framing, electrical, hvac, and plumbing)

So if I assume it’s going to cost me $10 grand I have to pay them upfront the 5% sales tax ($500 bucks) and they were like, it’s really not a problem you just show the permit to the people at home depot / lowes, etc and they won’t charge you the sales tax?

I was going to take a few weekends before winter and frame the basement out  but the more and more I look at this its just a total PIA. Plus I have to build “floating” walls??


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## Road Guy (Aug 4, 2017)

well round and round.. I ended up paying some guys to do the framing and sheetrock, It sucks to shell out so much money but they framed in the entire thing in a week!

nothing sexy about these pictures, just sharing the story as we go..





Anyone else have to build floating walls? You can kind of see there are two lower sets of 2X4's on the bottom with a PK nail to allow them to shift a little?  Doesnt seem like that would really work to me, if the soil shifts more than a little the walls are still going to crack, unless it all shifts the same amount?


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## wilheldp_PE (Aug 4, 2017)

Me and two buddies from college framed my entire basement in one day (~14 hours).  I had an AutoCAD drawing showing every stud with measurements, had a local lumber company do a take-off from my drawing, and had most of the studs drilled for wiring before we started.  It cost me a case of beer and lots of pizza, but was worth every penny.


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## P-E (Aug 4, 2017)

P-E said:


> RG don't do it unless you're sure you'll never get water down there. I've seen/heard of too many finished basement disasters.   Many just from bad plumbing.


Must have been drinking when I wrote this...wait..I am now.  

The plumbing issues were a lack of sewer check valve and they got sewer/storm water flooding.  In my town even with a sump pump it's risky since the water table is high. I'd like to have a man space in the basement if I could do it without losing too much if I got water.


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## Road Guy (Aug 4, 2017)

It's a lot more work than a days effort, fire blocking, ceilings, closets bathrooms, etc... I don't think mine could have been done in a day. Plus those floating floors look like a total PIA!

If I had done this myself on the weekends it would have taken me at least a month + probably


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 6, 2017)

Floating floors really aren't that hard to build. I did a couple in my basement to frame in a storage area (keep the pets out of it). The sheetrock shouldn't be attached to the floor board at all and should be about an inch off the floor, so the floor can flex up and down without ever touching the "wall". This gap in the sheetrock is covered by the floor molding, creating a lap joint. The hard part about building a floating wall is that they are hanging from the ceiling, and can be quite difficult to hang if your wall runs parallel to the joists (but in between).


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## Road Guy (Aug 7, 2017)

what makes them a pain If your doing a lot is you cant frame them in the traditional manner where you measure, build on the ground and then lift it up and nail it in as one 8' section, you have to stick frame it and toe nail it all together. Not building a swiss watch but definitely way more time consuming..

This was most of my weekend - two 10 hour days of this bullshit... I think it should be illegal to paint your house a dark color unless you have the title / own it free and clear / etc / Also painting a room with 20' ceilings really sucks! even with shaky scaffolding.. (grown kid in photo for scale)

I thought I wouldn't want the "safety gates" at the top but HFS there was no way I would have been up there trying to lean over and paint without them....


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## MA_PE (Aug 7, 2017)

wow that definitely sux.  I hope that's a layer fo Kilz you're putting on and not finish color.  Might take 3 coats to cover that brown.

Glad to see that kid with a roller in his hands!


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## Road Guy (Sep 5, 2017)

sheetrock is hung, should be painting next weekend. (if anyone is in town?)


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## Dexman PE PMP (Sep 5, 2017)

Tape/texture is probably the worst part of the whole process. I'd offer to help, but the commute is a bit too far...


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## snickerd3 (Sep 5, 2017)

Tru dat!!!!!


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## Road Guy (Sep 5, 2017)

I am mostly writing checks.. no taping or that god awful west of the Mississippi  River texture work  for me..

I asked for prices for a smooth finish and it was like "oh we got a high roller here- you can't afford that"... 

but once the taping and mud is done then I am the painter/electrical and plumbing finisher / etc...

i spent so much of my free time doing my last project i am

aftually glad to get this one finished quicker...


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

So looking at flooring options,  &amp; I haven’t gone to the flooring store yet, but have they come out with a laminate style faux hardwood floors that will work in a basement?  I want to say I was at COSTCO last year and they were selling a rubberized laminate style floor that was water proof?  We don’t have much moisture in CO but I still don’t think I can put the regular laminate stuff?

Any type of residential labor here is just crazy expensive so my thought was that If I can save a few thousand putting in click in floors I will be better off than carpet.  &amp; I could go ahead and buy it all and just work on it when I have time / feel like it.


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

the mudding crew was basically using us a fill in work so they were only here nights and weekends, really sort of sucked, but as of yesterday the "hiring out" part is done and I just have to paint, trim electrical and do a bathroom, lol... and worry about the floors...you cant really tell but the previous owners painted the floor fairly nice and we put plastic down while we were mudding so to save Money I am just going to clean them up and use them with some rugs for a while

hard to tell due to the weird size of the basement but this first pic is where TV / Movie / Netflix and chill area will be:




this is just an open area where the guest BRB will be (to the right ) and also the bathroom will be to the right. room full of junk is just storage &amp; I had to cram what we had in the basement there while it was U/C


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## kevo_55 (Sep 15, 2017)

Why not just use that epoxy flooring stuff &amp; throw down some rugs?


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## snickerd3 (Sep 15, 2017)

the tolerance for that laminate planking on concrete is really small.  We looked at doing that in ours before put in the floating floor and we would have had to buy GALLONS of the self leveling concrete to get the floor in any shape to work with the planks.  super glad we put in the floating floor, the ground isn't as cold in the winter.


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

Floating would work - what type did you use?  I don't plan on doing any leveling concrete - except maybe in the bathroom for the tile instead of wonder board...

We are ok with temporarily using the existing painted floors with rugs but the goal is when we sell this house to get close to a $600 # so we need something that will look high end..

i can't find anyone that does the stained concrete like we did back east - I've thought about doing that myself since it can't be that hard?


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## snickerd3 (Sep 15, 2017)

we put rolls of this stuff down then the big sheets of plywood then the carpet on top it.  It lifts the flooring off the ground but would still allow air flow beneath.  The also make 2'x2' squares with this material and plywood already together and you just install like the click together flooring.  for us it was cheaper to buy the roll/plywood than the grids


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

If I do carpet I'll just put it directly on th concrete floor with a good padding - I don't want to have to bring 900 SF of plywood down there..that in itself is just too much work!


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## knight1fox3 (Sep 15, 2017)

Road Guy said:


> If I do carpet I'll just put it directly on th concrete floor with a good padding


That's how our finished basement is. :thumbs:


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## csb (Sep 15, 2017)

I also have carpet on a hard surface.


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## snickerd3 (Sep 15, 2017)

carpet on the concrete slab was what was there and there is enough moisture that the carpet/padding was pulling it up into itself and stank of mildew/musty yuck.  we needed something that would allow the floor to breath.


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## knight1fox3 (Sep 15, 2017)

^ or you need to employ dehumidification. :thumbs:


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## snickerd3 (Sep 15, 2017)

knight1fox3 said:


> ^ or you need to employ dehumidification. :thumbs:


we do. the crawl space door is on the level and even with constant dehumidifer running that little bit of moisture was a carpet killer.  The planton stuff combined with the dehumidifier has worked wonders.


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

That was the main reason we did the stained floor in our last house - so much ground moisture in GA that all our neighbors had to remove the carpet and install something else it just retained so much mousoitre..


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## snickerd3 (Sep 15, 2017)

straight up concrete floor in CO sounds too cold for the feet in the winter time, even with rugs


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

These were fairly cheap - $3/SF back during the housing recession but can't find anyone to do them out here - mainly commercial applications... but I've really thought about looking up how to do these myself? It can't be that hard - just have to make some type of template for cutting in the tile look ?


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## Road Guy (Sep 15, 2017)

But our basement is toasty in the winter since that's where the furnace is - it's always the hottest place in the house in winter


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## User1 (Sep 15, 2017)

i'm pro concrete and jealous of your basement.


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## knight1fox3 (Sep 15, 2017)

snickerd3 said:


> straight up concrete floor in CO sounds too cold for the feet in the winter time, even with rugs


Nah, that's well below the frost line. Even for WI winters, the concrete isn't bad at all.


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## Supe (Sep 18, 2017)

csb said:


> I also have carpet on a hard surface.


All that biking must be paying off.


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

my kids serving as sub contractors sure are slow but you cant beat "free"   also trying to teach them a few basic things before they hopefully soon buy their own house move out, etc


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## Supe (Jan 8, 2018)

What is he tiling?


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

its the shower in the new basement bathroom. the wood supports the weight of the tile since it goes up to the ceiling, then we have to remove the wood and finish below once the tile has adhered to the wall..

The purple box is one of those cut out "shampoo shelves / holders" and was a total PIA. Thought it would be easy but the thing is almost trapezoid shaped (the outside dimensions are slightly larger than the inside) hope it looks okay when its grouted but was just not worth the trouble for something that wont get used that much... (wifes idea)


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## csb (Jan 8, 2018)

You don't need a whole shelf. Most of those things have suction cups on the base.


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

that's for the "master" shower


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## Dleg (Jan 8, 2018)

What about tile for the floor?  You can get that tile that looks (sort of) like hardwood, if you want, but why not just 12x12 tiles  - just apply straight onto the concrete.


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

I just used one of those pre made shower pans for the floor. The tile just goes down into it. I was going to do a tile floor but this just seemed to be the easiest


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## Dleg (Jan 8, 2018)

I was talking about the entire basement. As far as I know, tile is a moisture-resistant flooring. Looks nice, feels nice, and you can put throw rugs here and there for warmth and acoustics.


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

Gotcha - we have looked at it but that wood looking tile is pretty pricey @1000 SF worth.

They have a rubberized (not sure the actual term) laminate wood looking floor that is ok for basements that a lot of our neighbors have used. That's what we are leaning too. 

But we also looked at maybe doing half the space in tile and half in carpet (the area that will serve as an extra bedroom

It's all painted and I wired all the new outlets to the sub panel so I am running out of stuff to do once the bathroom is finished


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## Supe (Jan 8, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> its the shower in the new basement bathroom. the wood supports the weight of the tile since it goes up to the ceiling, then we have to remove the wood and finish below once the tile has adhered to the wall..
> 
> The purple box is one of those cut out "shampoo shelves / holders" and was a total PIA. Thought it would be easy but the thing is almost trapezoid shaped (the outside dimensions are slightly larger than the inside) hope it looks okay when its grouted but was just not worth the trouble for something that wont get used that much... (wifes idea)


No waterproof membrane?


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

its not needed with the durarock


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## Supe (Jan 8, 2018)

Always thought it was needed at least in the corners.  Interesting.  (Debating redoing my upstairs bath myself and converting the soaker tub to a big walk-in.)


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

I might do one if I was doing an upstairs shower just to be sure -but the combo of durarock/ wonderboard and thin set should suffice in most locations.i did put the thin set in thick at the corners. 

We're going through the inspection process and it seemed like there is more opportunity to trap water and create mold that way -it was a question I asked the permit people.

Upstairs we have a never used "garden tub" and shower and I'd also like to combine the two into one big shower but I always fear when we go to sell the house it might make it an issue - but if I decide to live here another 10 years or so I wouldn't mind doing it anyways


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## Supe (Jan 8, 2018)

We have a huge garden tub in ours that is never used, and a small walk-in shower stall.  The dogs have taken more baths than we have in that tub.  I'd like to rip out the stall and the tub, replace the tub with a big walk-in shower, and put an open storage space where the stall is, since storage is really what we're lacking.  I think if I do it, I'd use one of the enamel shower floor inserts and tile the walls because its less aggravation than presloping the floor, I can reuse the drain location, and I like the contrast vs. the tiled floors.  The only tricky part is that there is an exterior sliding window in the stall, and I'm not sure exactly how to waterproof it.  I don't want to block it off because its the only natural light in the bathroom, and would have a mismatched siding patch on the exterior because its sun faded.


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## Road Guy (Jan 8, 2018)

We used to have those block window things in the shower and replaced it with a glazed regular window - it wasn't too expensive and we paid someone to do it- maybe $400 bucks total?

If the plumbing lines up it shouldn't be too bad


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## Road Guy (Jan 15, 2018)

finished most of the grout this past weekend, I think I am going to finish out the bathroom and then pay someone to do whichever floors we pick out - I just have lost all motivation to do this type stuff.. but at least I will have a "standing urinal" once I install the shower faucet


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 15, 2018)

Looking nice! What's all left to do save for the flooring?


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## Road Guy (Jan 15, 2018)

mostly just the floors, remaining in the bathroom (floor tile, toilet, sink, fart fan) and then the floors and molding &amp; a couple of doors.  People charge so damn much for bathrooms its worth it to do that myself. We have some old carpet leading down to the basement but I think I am just going to clean those the best I can and maybe pull the carpet off and stain the stair treads this summer.

I had a sub panel put in and the guy wanted to charge me nearly $2 grand to wire all the outlets, switches, and install the breakers (he had already run the wires to the new outlets), I did that a few hours a night last week and hooked up the breakers this past weekend also.

We had an area in the basement set up so we can add a bar later, but I don't think I will tackle that this year...


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## Road Guy (Jan 15, 2018)

I don't have any finished painting pics, but here is some in progress pics.. glad the painting part is over...


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## Supe (Jan 15, 2018)

I have to START painting, including redoing my daughter's room which is a bright lime green, courtesy of the previous owners.  Can't wait to see how many coats that one's going to take...


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## matt267 PE (Jan 15, 2018)

Supe said:


> I have to START painting, including redoing my daughter's room which is a bright lime green, courtesy of the previous owners.  Can't wait to see how many coats that one's going to take...


Zinsser primer. You're welcome.


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## Supe (Jan 15, 2018)

But does the 1-2-3 work as good as the oil-based stuff?


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## Road Guy (Jan 15, 2018)

we have had really good luck with the Behr primer included paint.  It wouldn't cover a crazy dark color in one coat but defin in two


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## Supe (Jan 15, 2018)

I hope its better than Valspar.  That shit covers about as well as a New Orleans Saints DB.  I've been happy with Glidden, but never had to cover paint this gnarly before.


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## Road Guy (Jan 15, 2018)

Yeah that stuff sucks 

If you go back a page in this thread our living room we repainted that shit brown with a lighter color grey and did that with only two coats of the behr paint.


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## matt267 PE (Jan 15, 2018)

Supe said:


> But does the 1-2-3 work as good as the oil-based stuff?


I don't know. I've never used an oil based primer before.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jan 15, 2018)

I had a golf buddy that was a regional manager for PPG in the area.  He got me his employee discount on all of my paint for the upstairs.  When I was getting quotes from painters, one of the painters was pissed that I already bought the paint...then he was even more pissed when he found out I paid less than his large contractor price for it.  I got the super premium PPG paint for less than the cheap stuff at Lowes.


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## Road Guy (Jan 24, 2018)

slowly but surely, may have bathroom #4 in operation by this weekend! I have already called dibs..

these rectangular tile were kind of a PIA to cut (when you have to cut them lengthwise)

Also wife isn't happy with my "sloppiness" around the toilet "area" I told her the base will cover 90% of that...

Note - outside walls are not purple, just the way the light hit it I think


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## Dleg (Jan 24, 2018)

Looking nice!  Yeah, that "sloppy" tile work will all be under the toilet base anyway. She won't be able to see it.



Road Guy said:


> Note - outside walls are not purple, just the way the light hit it I think


&lt;cough&gt; bullshit &lt;cough&gt;


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## Supe (Jan 24, 2018)

Dleg said:


> Looking nice!  Yeah, that "sloppy" tile work will all be under the toilet base anyway. She won't be able to see it.
> 
> &lt;cough&gt; bullshit &lt;cough&gt;


Just go heavy on the caulk!


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## Road Guy (Jan 24, 2018)

It should be fairly level with the grout. If she had gone with the normal 12 X 12 floor tile then it would be so choppy..

I think this is going to be my Al Bundy bathroom... But with 5 adults in the house all getting up at the same time an extra bathroom  / shower is going to be pretty handy!


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 24, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> I think this is going to be my Al Bundy bathroom... But with 5 adults in the house all getting up at the same time an extra bathroom  / shower is going to be pretty handy!


You should install a lock on it and keep the key with you at all times. :thumbs:


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## MA_PE (Jan 24, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> It should be fairly level with the grout. If she had gone with the normal 12 X 12 floor tile then it would be so choppy..
> 
> I think this is going to be my Al Bundy bathroom... But with 5 adults in the house all getting up at the same time an extra bathroom  / shower is going to be pretty handy!


until it's occupied by visiting parents/in-laws.


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## Road Guy (Jan 24, 2018)

overkill?


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## MA_PE (Jan 24, 2018)

I don't think so.


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## Road Guy (Jan 24, 2018)

I can leave the in laws the bucket I am currently peeing in when working on the basement (that gets thrown out the window)    don't want them to get too comfortable..

- question:  The tile goes up to 1/4 " away from the shower pan, I cant decide if I should just grout that normally are try and caulk it in case there is some movement over time?  the shower pan is solid but it is designed to "give a little" when you stand on it.  My last basement bathroom was a tub shower which was more rigid and I think I grouted it?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jan 24, 2018)

If that's your Al Bundy bathroom, will it have a poop knife?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/weird-news/man-baffled-every-home-doesnt-11878362


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## matt267 PE (Jan 24, 2018)

MA_PE said:


> until it's occupied by visiting parents/in-laws.


Ain't that the truth.


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## Road Guy (Jan 29, 2018)

So I didn't get to spend much time on this due to being a little sick over the weekend, but I wandered around the plumbing section of Home depot yesterday and I can't seem to make these connections work? I've got a 1 1/4" drain pipe going to the rough in schedule 40?  I know there is some combinations of reducers but I sure as shit couldn't seem to find it last night? Seemed like there is a set up to tie in a kitchen sink (1 1/2" drain pipe) to the Schedule 40 one but I cant seem to find that same set up for a 1 1/4"?


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## Supe (Jan 29, 2018)

Whats the dia. on the sch. 40?


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## Road Guy (Jan 29, 2018)

its 2" (outside)  I found a bushing that will reduce it to accept a 1 1/2" but I cant seem to find a reducer that goes from 1.25 to 1.5 (I found one that goes from 1.5 to 1.25 though) - will head to a plumbing supply store at lunch and try and get some help.. the plumbing section on a sunday at the big box stores is always a wreck!


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## Supe (Jan 29, 2018)

I suspect you'll have to order one or splice in a short section, since most rough in drains are 1.5".


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## kevo_55 (Jan 29, 2018)

https://www.homedepot.com/p/1-1-2-in-x-1-1-4-in-PVC-DWV-Trap-Adapter-C480127HD112114/100342402

Will this work?


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## Road Guy (Jan 29, 2018)

I think so, I didn't think about going to the regular PVC section and getting a reducer that I could glue in?


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## kevo_55 (Jan 29, 2018)

Once you have the glue, it'll last a long time and you'll use it on other projects.

Since it's low pressure, I wouldn't bother buying the cleaner for it. 

I assume that you would just use the compression fitting on the ABS pipe and just glue the PVC pipe into the fitting. I may have gotten that turned around but they should make  a part for that other way as well.


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## Road Guy (Jan 30, 2018)

Current state of disarray


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## YMZ PE (Jan 30, 2018)

Looking good! The marble shower tile looks awesome. Contrasts nicely with the dark floor tile too.


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## MA_PE (Jan 30, 2018)

looks very nice.  Almost there.


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## Road Guy (Jan 30, 2018)

Obviously I didn't pick out any tile colors, or that horrible yellow paint color - mainly we had some of that paint left over and just didn't want to buy any more..

got the plumbing connections figured out. even though I am a Home Depot stock holder, its so much easier to find what you need at a straight up plumbing supply store. They had a contraption that basically was a 2" to 1.25 " reducer and trap all in one piece (so easy a caveman could do it!)

And the virgin marry herself stopped by last night to take a dump in the new toilet!

For whatever reason the guy who did the plumbing rough in made the water supply line to the toilet from the hot water line?  That makes absolutely no F'n sense to me.  Guess I should have checked that a little closer before they disappeared...


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 30, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> For whatever reason the guy who did the plumbing rough in made the water supply line to the toilet from the hot water line?  That makes absolutely no F'n sense to me.  Guess I should have checked that a little closer before they disappeared...


Some plumbers actually do this on purpose (in the mid-west region) to prevent toilet sweat. I guess moisture that forms on the toilet tank and can lead to puddles and mold in the bathroom?

EDIT: But then again, it would likely take more than a gallon of water to work the hot water through the pipes from the water heater. Therefore the hot water would not be readily available at each flush. :dunno:


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## Supe (Jan 30, 2018)

Sounds like RG needs a bidet toilet!


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## kevo_55 (Jan 30, 2018)

Or better yet, one of those Japanese toilets.


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## Road Guy (Jan 30, 2018)

But for a seldom used bathroom the hot water in the bowl won't stay hot very long?

I've seen those bidet's you can attach to the toilet (like a spray wand). Thought about getting one "just for science"


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## knight1fox3 (Jan 30, 2018)

kevo_55 said:


> Or better yet, one of those Japanese toilets.


Or:


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## YMZ PE (Jan 30, 2018)

Word of caution for the in-seat bidet: my buddy just installed one and discovered the average American chode t'aint proportioned the same as Japanese chodes. You're probably better off with the spray wand kind so you can adjust the angle.


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## Supe (Jan 30, 2018)

YMZ PE said:


> Word of caution for the in-seat bidet: my buddy just installed one and discovered the average American chode t'aint proportioned the same as Japanese chodes. You're probably better off with the spray wand kind so you can adjust the angle.


So what got sprayed?  The back, the sack, or the sink?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jan 30, 2018)

If needed, I hear the Guggenheim Museum has an extra one available...

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/arts/gold-toilet-trump.html


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## YMZ PE (Jan 30, 2018)

Supe said:


> So what got sprayed?  The back, the sack, or the sink?


Oh! That was another thing. His 7 year old lost control of the stream and it drenched their wall. As for him, I'm not exactly sure but I imagine this is how it went down:


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## MA_PE (Jan 30, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> Obviously I didn't pick out any tile colors, or that horrible yellow paint color - mainly we had some of that paint left over and just didn't want to buy any more..
> 
> got the plumbing connections figured out. even though I am a Home Depot stock holder, its so much easier to find what you need at a straight up plumbing supply store. They had a contraption that basically was a 2" to 1.25 " reducer and trap all in one piece (so easy a caveman could do it!)
> 
> ...


Was your plumber from the DC area?  A relative just bought a townhouse down there and the basement toilet is connected to the hot water line.  I got a big chuckle out of the when I saw it.  Also the shower stall in the same bathroom is a one piece fiberglass unit and instead of cutting holes in the fiberglass for the faucets, they mounted them above the shower stall next to the showerhead.  That's pretty funny too.  We chocked it up to a DIYer and figured that the HW line was closest so that's why they branched it out to the toilet.  I'd never heard of using HW to prevent sweating of the bowl.  Interesting.


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## Road Guy (Jan 30, 2018)

lol, what about them short people?

What's odd is the cost to DIY tile is about the same cost as those fiberglass units and look 100X better.. I think the tile for my shower was $250 bucks?


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## MA_PE (Jan 31, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> lol, what about them short people?
> 
> What's odd is the cost to DIY tile is about the same cost as those fiberglass units and look 100X better.. I think the tile for my shower was $250 bucks?


Short people got no reason....

The shower unit is flat on the two sides and has an architectural vertical raised panel section on the back.   The faucets are on the back wall.  I suspect when it was installed they didn't want to put the faucets on the raised panels because it would be a flat surface at the faucet stems and the cover plates wouldn't sit flush so they put them up top above the fiberglass.  It oerks but it's pretty odd.


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## Road Guy (Feb 5, 2018)

bathroom is pretty much all done. kind of wish I hadn't taken the tile all the way to the ceiling now...

also regretting the light over the shower, it shows every imperfection in my tile work, gonna get a lower watt bulb!


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## User1 (Feb 5, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> bathroom is pretty much all done. kind of wish I hadn't taken the tile all the way to the ceiling now...
> 
> also regretting the light over the shower, it shows every imperfection in my tile work, gonna get a lower watt bulb!
> 
> View attachment 10782


that looks awesome. wanna do mine next?


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## snickerd3 (Feb 5, 2018)

you will be thankful for taking the tile all the way to the ceiling.  looks good


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## YMZ PE (Feb 5, 2018)

The shower and floors look awesome! Though I'm sorry, but that yellow paint is AWFUL. Can you please do your excellent tile work some justice and paint those walls greige? I recommend BM Revere Pewter or SW Repose Gray.


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## Road Guy (Feb 5, 2018)

It doesn't look quite as bad in person, the picture makes it look more mustard

Mainly I think we were just tired of going to the paint store


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## Road Guy (Feb 5, 2018)

And TJ- be happy to help, my rate is around $200 an hour?


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## MA_PE (Feb 5, 2018)

That came out great.  Kudos to you and your crew.


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## Road Guy (Feb 6, 2018)

so electrical people.. I had someone install the sub panel and run most of the wiring. I'm doing the finish work but have one 3 way switch giving me trouble.

There are three wires coming into each switch but it seems no matter which combination I use I get the following result:

Switch one will turn light on and off, until I turn the other switch either on or off and then switch 1 will no longer work until I go back and turn the switch at switch 2?

I should have looked at the wiring a little closer before the guy left (in September lol) but each switch has two black wires and one red wire, I attached the red wires to the "dark" post on the 3 way switch? I have tried almost every combination but  cant seem to make it work?

Not much intel but for those of you who didn't get a low C in circuit analysis have any tips?


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## matt267 PE (Feb 6, 2018)




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## Road Guy (Feb 6, 2018)

I think my power source is coming from the light and not the switch, but I guess then I just do it in reverse?


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## MA_PE (Feb 6, 2018)

I had the same problem when I wired a 3-way.  I was all set to live with the lop-sided behavior and someone convinced that I was wired wrong.  I forget what the magic combination was but I got it somehow and things worked properly.  :dunno:

This guy explains it pretty well

https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&amp;ei=B9N5Wv64JY6B5wLZ0afADg&amp;q=how+to+wire+a+three+way+light+switch&amp;oq=how+to+wire+a+three&amp;gs_l=psy-ab.1.1.0l10.2224.9869.0.11470.25.18.3.4.4.0.180.1742.13j5.18.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.25.1768...0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.1vBSFQ3yAOg#kpvalbx=1


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 6, 2018)

How does the yellow paint contrast with the purple in the rest of the basement? And when did you become Vikings fans?


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## mudpuppy (Feb 6, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> I think my power source is coming from the light and not the switch, but I guess then I just do it in reverse?




It'll work in reverse, but if your fixture is wired backwards it's less safe because you could get a shock by touching the bulb base.  The hot should really be connected to the little piece of metal in the bottom of the socket.


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## User1 (Feb 8, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> It doesn't look quite as bad in person, the picture makes it look more mustard
> 
> Mainly I think we were just tired of going to the paint store


Agree that it looks like it's the lighting from the vanity making it look warmer/yellowy.


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## Road Guy (Mar 16, 2018)

fuck this shit.. that's all I got to say about that...


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## MA_PE (Mar 16, 2018)

ceiling drops look nice.  It'll be great when it's finally done but the road there can be annoying.


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## Road Guy (Mar 16, 2018)

the extra trim lines were fun to paint in 

progress on floors is slow, I get a good case of FTS about 20 min into it....


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 16, 2018)

^ I hope you're doing that right with a case of beer so you're good to go when you have a case of FTS. :thumbs:


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## matt267 PE (Mar 16, 2018)

Looking good RG.


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## Road Guy (Mar 20, 2018)

Was up late waiting on the wife and kids united flight that was 5 hours late! So I finished the floors -except I am 4 boards short!

Now I just have to do some cleanup and install some molding and doors and it'll be done
















We had decided not to mess with the carpet on the stairs going down to the basement, but now that the flooring is in they absolutely need to get it replaced with something, looks like shit..


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 20, 2018)

Looking good!

Side note, is that a CO thing to have your water heater Reynolds wrapped? :dunno:


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## Road Guy (Mar 20, 2018)

stupid cat used the insulation around the water heater as a scratch pad so I just used some HVAC tape to repair it.. been meaning to get some new insulation but just haven't gotten around to it...


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## MA_PE (Mar 20, 2018)

so is the water heater typically wrapped with insulation on the exterior?  Here we have a sheet metal can on the exterior and whatever insulation is there is inboard of that.

Floor looks nice.  Wre you bale to get 4 more boards or did you leave some place bare?


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## Road Guy (Mar 20, 2018)

yeah its like a big sleeve that wraps around it. Not sure if it really works all that well or not, figured I would replace this with one of those tankless ones whenever this one goes, its 12 years old so probably soon..

I'm going to have to go find some more floor, I took the pics before I got to the end, I'll grab another pic that shows the back half. We had to special order it from HD- so It might be a while before it gets here..

We went with a semi laminate style which is water proof and ok for basements, it also had the underlayment built in, was sort of a PIA to learn the "trick" to get it all locked in but once that was figured out went fairly smooth, the main room is 24' long and that one was just sort of a PIA

I've got to get the final inspection scheduled. they said they don't need the molding and doors (or floors) up for that, but just need to get that done with..

We roughed in the plumbing and electrical for a future wet bar in one of the corners, thinking were going to want that done sooner rather than later. it was nice at our old basement to not have to lug beer glasses and cocktail glasses up and down the stairs..

also wish I had put more insulation in the ceiling, the floor above is all tile and its fairly noisy when folks (kids) are stomping about..


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## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2018)

I probably know the answer to this but figured I would ask you electrical types..

I paid a guy to wire in a new sub panel- I have my final inspection next week so I was checking all the electrical finish work that I did &amp; I hadn't noticed but it looks like he wired in one new 15A circuit breaker that has the GFI built into it. But he has like 3 lines going into this one breaker - best I can describe it as a "pig tail" connection?  I am assuming he did this just to have temporary power or something? I am assuming this is not allowed?  None of the lines need GFI protection for where they are (have them in places the City called them out when I got my permit) Assuming I just need to add individual breakers for each of those lines? (they are essentially one rooms outlets and all the can lights)


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## MA_PE (Apr 4, 2018)

I'd call the guy who wired and ask him....it's his work.


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## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2018)

I tried and he hasn't called me back, I think he is pissed cause he was planning on getting paid $1,200 to do the "finish" part (outlets, lights, and the breakers) - I think I might have $250 in those materials I have bought.. building prices are just asinine here..


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 4, 2018)

Essentially this is how a *GFCI* breaker should be installed. You can use GFCI CBs without using GFCI outlets and vise-versa.







Here's some additional info on how to configure the wiring: https://www.hunker.com/13414173/how-to-wire-a-gfci-circuit-breaker


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## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2018)

but can you have multiple lines into the one GFCI Breaker?


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 4, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> but can you have multiple lines into the one GFCI Breaker?


It depends. What are the line types feeding into the GFCI breaker (e.g. line, neutral, gnd)? Essentially the answer is yes.


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## MA_PE (Apr 4, 2018)

I'm no electrician but if I understand it correctly, the GFCI just offers ground fault protection in addition to limiting current load.  Wouldn't it be the same as having multiple lines connected to a standard breaker?  The total load through is still limited to the breaker size and all circuits would be GFCI protected and the breaker would trip if there is a fault on any of the branches.

Similar to wiring a single GFCI outlet before other outlets.  The downstream outlets are protected by the upstream GFCI.  That is acceptable.


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## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2018)

The black wires are tied into the GFCI Breaker (via a wire nut inside the breaker, with a pig tail wire going to the actual breaker) - the white wires are all individually wired to the box (where the white wires normally go)


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 4, 2018)

^ perhaps a photo would help. But as MA pointed out, it should be wired no differently than a standard CB. The only difference is that there is an added neutral element to help provide additional ground fault protection rather than relying on the full load of the breaker (i.e. 15A, 20A, etc.).

A GFCI will turn the circuit off (interrupt) when there is a current leak.  The GFCI monitors the current going to the load (black or “hot” wire) and compares it to the current coming from the load (white, “common” wire).  If there is any difference between the two, the GFCI will “interrupt” or turn the circuit off.


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## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2018)




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## mudpuppy (Apr 4, 2018)

Pretty sure you're fine.  It's a bit unusual to have a wire nut inside the breaker panel, but it's done all the time inside J-boxes.  I did a little googling of wire nuts in breaker panels and it appears to be allowed.


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## Dleg (Apr 4, 2018)

That's my understanding ^ as well. The only thing I know of as a no-no would be if he tried to connect the two blacks into the terminal on the CB itself, or two whites into one neutral terminal (i.e. two wires under one screw). Like MP said, lines are wire-nutted together in junction boxes all the time. 

But I'm no electrician....


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## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2018)

ok - cool the wire nut inside the electrical panel is what threw me for a loop. Ill just close the thing up and hopefully _forgettaboutit......_


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## Road Guy (Apr 16, 2018)

so had my final inspection on the basement Friday - FAILED! LOL I guess I didn't read the large print note on my permit that said all the outlets have to be "tamper resistant /  child proof" major PIA to rewire them - but my fault...  They did give me a temporary CO so I can move furniture down there , which is what I needed..  if its the current code they shouldn't even sell the "non child proof ones" oh well...

On a positive note, this area of the Country doesn't use the standard molding for windows, instead they finish the sheetrock and then put a nice custom made window sill on the bottom (if that's what its called) - I had never done much with a router but I bought a cheap one and made 4 of these for the 4 windows in the basement, I burned through some cheaper wood until I got the hang of it, the glare from the sun makes these hard to see but I though they turned out pretty cool - wife was worried I would lose a finger or two in the process (still have all 9!   )


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## Supe (Apr 16, 2018)

I never even knew those were a thing.


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## MA_PE (Apr 16, 2018)

"all the outlets have to be "tamper resistant /  child proof"

who knew?


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## Supe (Apr 16, 2018)

MA_PE said:


> "all the outlets have to be "tamper resistant /  child proof"
> 
> who knew?


When I googled, it, I came across some article saying that some study indicated "100% of children tested" were able to remove those plastic outlet covers.  I'm calling total bullshit, because I've been going to the gym for 2 1/2 years, and I can't get half those f*ckers off without a screwdriver.  There's no way in hell little three year old Suzy-Lue got that thing off with her hair clip.


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## youngmotivatedengineer (Apr 16, 2018)

They must have kid tested the new covers which are relatively easy to get off. The old fashioned ones are the best ones, but also the most annoying since it's hard for adults to get them off also.


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## Road Guy (Apr 16, 2018)

The tamper resistant outlets have a layer of plastic behind the prongs and when you place pressure on both or all the "holes" it releases the plastic so you can plug in your lamp/ tv/ etc...

Can't see that it's a totally flawless setup as it seems like they are fairly flimsy. I had ironically bought a couple without knowing until I installed them..

I know this is how the code works for new construction but seems kind of stupid since the rest of the house doesn't have them- guess I should be glad they are not requiring all of them in the whole house to be replaced - can see a government applying that logic..


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## matt267 PE (Apr 16, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> *government* applying that *logic*.





You said "government" and "logic" in the same sentence.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 16, 2018)

Our new house back in Denver had those stupid outlets throughout the house.  Most of them worked fine, but there were a few where the plastic "shield" wouldn't move rendering the outlet worthless.


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## csb (Apr 16, 2018)

https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Education/By-topic/Top-causes-of-fire/Electrical/Tamper-resistant-electrical-receptacles

This is fascinating. We just had some friends re-do a kitchen with an electrical overhaul. I'm sticking a paper clip in the socket the next time I'm over.


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## Dleg (Apr 16, 2018)

It wouldn't have saved my dumb ass in 6th grade batteries and light bulbs. I bent a piece of insulated wire into a horseshoe shape, and lowered it into a floor outlet in the school to see what would happen. I was "smart" enough to use a pair of pliers with rubberized grips, and to sort of drop it into the outlet rather than inserting it. I think that if it had been a child proof outlet, I would have figured that out and maybe just pushed the horseshoe wire a little harder and it still would have gone in.

(the result was a miniature explosion that shot all the grit in the floor outlet up into the air (and into my eyes), much to the delight of my "friends" who were involved)


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## Road Guy (Apr 16, 2018)

But did the bulb light up?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 16, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> But did the bulb light up?


Some would say his light bulb never really lit up...


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## Dleg (Apr 17, 2018)

Road Guy said:


> But did the bulb light up?


Yeah, about 1 minute into the class, which was why I had so much free time to electrocute myself while the other dummies were still trying to figure out how to just get a light bulb to work.


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