# My Application was Denied. Help me with the Appeal Letter?



## nlook (Mar 29, 2013)

Hello my fellow engineers! I'm looking for help on writing a letter to the California Board of Professional Engineers, Land Surveyors, and Geologists. My application for a Civil PE license was shot down on the grounds that there wasn't enough info to determine the work as civil engineering under their definition. Two lines is hardly enough room to describe everything I did and I was suckered into thinking that maybe they didn't care too much about it, but here I am now. Can you help me buff up the appeal letter?


Dear X:

I am a recent applicant for licensing as a Professional Civil Engineer sitting for the April 2013 exams. In a letter dated January 31, 2013, I received the Board’s determination that my application would be classified as incomplete. In response, I submit this letter further detailing my engagement period with Company X. Please accept this additional information to supplement the Engagement Record and Reference Form used to determine if my engagement would qualify as Engineering Experience under the Board’s definition.

The only project during my engagement period was the Project X: Radiological Remediation and Support which lasted from my date of hire, November 1, 2010, to the deadline of the April 2013 exam application, November 1, 2012. Its purpose was to protect the public health and welfare, and the environment from actual or potential releases of radiological contaminants with the removal of sewer and stormwater drainage piping, materials, and soil in the area that was found to contain contamination. The piping, the trenches resulting from the piping removal, the surrounding soil, and nearby buildings were screened and sampled for their specific physical quality of radiological concern. Additional excavation remediation was performed as necessary. All materials that were determined to have contamination were properly disposed of. Site restoration activities included the installation of a temporary drainage swale to manage overland storm water flow. In addition, trench excavations were backfilled to grade followed by the application of road base material.

Below I have organized a table listing my tasks and duties in contribution to the project in detail and a corresponding engineering principle beside each.

[Note: I was having too much trouble formatting a table into this post so I attached it just as a Word file instead.]

If you have any further questions or need any additional information, please call me at XXX-XXXX or email [email protected]

Sincerely,

nlook

Appeal letter table.doc


----------



## solomonb (Mar 29, 2013)

Not having any more facts than what are stated here, if I was going after this challenge, I would be very specific about each of the tasks that you did. I would identify quantities, breadth and depth of work, etc. Leave nothing to chance-- your table may be 2 pages, single spaced.

Again, I don't have enough facts or data to tell you more, however, I certainly would want to be very specific with what you send back. This is not a matter where you want to engage in a colloquoy.

I would also carefully read the California rules for appeals to Board Determinations. I would want to comform and comply with everything that they state. I suspect that this may be more of an up hill challenge than you imagine, so specific details are going to be very important. You cannot stretch the truth, however, I would want to identify everything that can be verified, if necessary, so that you can get on with the matter at hand, taking and passing the PE examination in California.


----------



## tmacier (Apr 4, 2013)

I had recieved a similiar request and responded with a four page letter expanding on my experience. If you dont have it then your not ready.

Here is a snipit to give you a sense for the level of detail.

I am currently working with XXXXXXXXX, to develop facility upgrades that would allow for a new Transuranic (TRU) Waste Box Remediation Facility to be located XXXXXXXXX.

This involves site walk downs, evaluating existing radiological conditions, and the design and development of containment modifications. These modifications are required to be performed under industry accepted codes and standards (I.E. ANSI, AISC, ASTM, UBC, NFPA, SMACNA, ect). The modifications consist of four 16’ x 16’ x 16’ (nom) structural steel airlocks with rollup doors, bi-fold doors, air louvers, back dampers, status controls lights, ect. The airlocks will provide cascading pressure gradients between process areas ensuring directional air flow from least contaminated area to highest contaminated area. Included in this design is a custom filtration system using HEPA filters, spot ventilation, and custom duct connections.

Also - remove the word "ONLY"out of your second paragraph.

Hope this helps

Tim


----------



## tmacier (Apr 4, 2013)

Another example section:

Another recent example involved a year long, critical path, team collaboration project. The projects goal was to engineer, design and build a device that would facilitate weld inspections and repairs to the core flood (CF) nozzle piping (located directly on the nuclear reactor) during a refueling outage in a commercial nuclear power plant.

This work was focused on the pipe to vessel connection, adjacent to the reactor and required access to the annulus between the reactor vessel and reactor bio-shield, at approximately a 30 ft elevation. Access was obtained by cutting and removing a portion of the reactor’s six foot thick bio-shield adjacent to the CF piping. A work platform was developed and allowed entry into the annulus space. Once operators were in position, installation and monitoring of the welding equipment was completed as well as performing all required weld repairs.

A significant radiological risk was associated with this entry due to the high radiation general work area levels from the reactor, as well as from the in-core instrumentation which was removed from the core (i.e. in the pulled position) and left within the instrumentation tubing below the CF nozzle.

This project was successfully executed in XXXXXXX.

Tim


----------



## ptatohed (Apr 4, 2013)

Don't spend too much time describing the project. Spend most of your time describing your role in the project. It's more important to demonstrate your 'Level of Responsibility' and your 'Engineering Decisions Made' on the project. http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/pubs/forms/perefsfrm.pdf

For instance, if I was filling out my application, I'd much rather list a small road widening project (in which I tracked the budget, hired survey/geotech subconsultants, coordinated with utility companies, prepared the plan and profile sheets and specs, prepared the cost estimate, etc., etc., ) than to list a huge glamorous complex project (in which I was a team member). Does that make sense?


----------



## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 4, 2013)

^^^ Agreed. You are demonstrating your skills as an engineer, not who you work for or what projects you participated in.

Colorado takes it a step further and requires the applicant to show "progressive" engineering skills, in that how you grew as an engineer and took on more roles and responsibilities and learned more engineering skills as time progressed. They want to see that you are more than a CAD monkey or a simply quantity estimator, despite the fact those may account for 90% of your work week...


----------



## Lumber Jim (Apr 4, 2013)

Put the most effort into explaining the actual "engineering" that you did and how that experience makes you an engineer. For example: How was the contamination determined. Were you responsible for determining this, what was the criteria that decisions were on, what testing was performed, What role did you have in deciding what was to be done, etc.?

Explain the science of the project, the responsibility that you had, and how it made you a "Professional Engineer". What makes the project "engineering" and not just project management, or number crunching


----------



## Road Guy (Apr 4, 2013)

Make sure you have words such as "performed calculations" or the like in there somewhere..

When I first submitted mine the first time I got a no go letter because I wrote a very weak description of my work.. I had to wait six months, but I overly used the words, calculated, designd, managed, etc in my second attemp...

I recently received my license in colorado through reciprocity, and if you need a good example, they have one of the best go bye PE applications I have ever seen, go to colorado's website for a really good example of how to write up your experience...


----------



## talal033 (Feb 10, 2014)

Has anyone been successful in appealing and overturning the Boards initial decision.


----------



## Dexman PE PMP (Feb 10, 2014)

^^^ It's been my experience that by the time you go through the appeals process, you would have gained the additional experience you were missing. Additionally if you appeal, by the time you get the response back on your appeal you'll be past the registration deadline and have to wait for the next exam anyways.


----------



## Ship Wreck PE (Feb 10, 2014)

Be very nice to them. Maybe talk to a board member on the phone. And be real nice. That's what I did and it worked out good.


----------



## solomonb (Feb 10, 2014)

nlook-- You have great advice here. I know that you are disappointed and frustrated, so its life. Get on with it. Be very clear and specific with what you duties are/were on each project that you cite. If you don't have enough time to fulfill the time requirement, you will have to achieve that before the board will accept your package. The board wants to make you a PE, however, they want to insure that you have the qualifications and experience to be a PE.

Follow the ideas provided here-- it will work.


----------



## ptatohed (Feb 10, 2014)

Dexman PE said:


> ^^^ It's been my experience that by the time you go through the appeals process, you would have gained the additional experience you were missing. Additionally if you appeal, by the time you get the response back on your appeal you'll be past the registration deadline and have to wait for the next exam anyways.




This is a very good point DPE and we probably should have brought this up to the OP 11 months ago. I agree - if it were me, I wouldn't bother appealing, I would simply apply to the next exam (incorporating the items I missed the previous time).


----------

