# In the Salary Race, Engineers Sprint but English Majors Endure



## Ramnares P.E. (Sep 24, 2019)

Thoughts?

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/business/liberal-arts-stem-salaries.html


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## leggo PE (Sep 24, 2019)

When looking at the STEM careers, this article seems to heavily focus on the tech industry. No kidding things there are moving quickly. I'm not sure it's quite so fast-paced in civil/structural engineering, though goodness knows it's useful to know how to use CAD and BIM programs as a licensed engineer these days.

Also, all structural engineers know they don't go into this profession for the money...


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## Supe (Sep 24, 2019)

Can't see it without NY Times subscription - what was the gist of it?


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Sep 24, 2019)

Interesting article. I neither agree or disagree.

I know it's not always realistic, but in my opinion people should follow their passion, whether that's engineering, science, econ, literature, or art.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Sep 24, 2019)

Supe said:


> Can't see it without NY Times subscription - what was the gist of it?


Gotta teach yall how to bypass paywalls. 

https://web.archive.org/web/20190923211500/https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/20/business/liberal-arts-stem-salaries.html


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## kevo_55 (Sep 24, 2019)

Meh.

Computers can do a lot of things but they can't replace engineers. Also this article keeps talking about how the engineering skills that we have learned in school will become obsolete. What about an engineer updating their skills to better their career? We do this every day where I am.

This article sounds like it was written by a liberal arts major.


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## Ranger1316 (Sep 24, 2019)

kevo_55 said:


> This article sounds like it was written by a liberal art major.


Bingo

It's just another article trying to argue that all majors are important/equal. Engineering and liberal arts are way too broad to paint an accurate career picture for even a majority of either one.


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Sep 24, 2019)

This quote popped out to me, for some reason...

[SIZE=17pt]A liberal arts education fosters valuable “soft skills” like problem-solving, critical thinking and adaptability.[/SIZE]


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## Ramnares P.E. (Sep 24, 2019)

Biased forum but glad to see I'm not the only one who thought this article was a load of horse manure...


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## Violator (Sep 24, 2019)

And yet another fake news story to encourage more people in the US to chose not to go into our line of work.

- I see this as an absolute win!


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## Supe (Sep 24, 2019)

I think its safe to say that "liberal arts" is way too huge of a category for comparison, and his assessment cross-contaminates the terms STEM and liberal arts.  There are STEM majors that don't get you a BS. 

I think if you polled STEM folks, the overwhelming majority would not categorize business and law degrees into the "useless liberal arts degree" bucket.  In fact, how exactly do you exclude degrees like economics and business from the "M" in STEM?

His numbers also omit the fact that the majority of engineers earn those numbers with a bachelor's degree, whereas all of his "top earners" for non STEM degrees would require graduate degrees or doctorates.  

Of course, the author is also under 40 and is a "social policy" director at Harvard, so he's even more biased than most of the people on this board.  

BTW, if you look at MEDIAN incomes and not average, there is a swing in the favor of the STEM earnings of nearly 50% for mid-career earners...


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## Dleg (Sep 24, 2019)

The major flaw in the article is revealed here:

social science and history majors earned $131,154 — an average that is lifted, in part, by high-paying jobs in management, business and law.

They are lumping lawyers and MBAs into their averages. The study should have been limited people with the bachelor's degrees only. BA history or english majors (=teachers and waiters) don't fare as well as BS engineers over time, I am pretty certain.


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## Exengineer (Oct 15, 2019)

It should be noted that the vast majority of careers after university are not available to those with a mere Bachelors degree.  One must have a higher degree for most.  For example, having a Bachelors in Economics will not get you a position as an Economist anywhere.  Similarly a Bachelors in Psychology will not allow you to be a Psychologist.  You must have a PhD!  Same thing in Physics, a Bachelors will get you some type of job, but nothing related to being a Physicist.  A Masters or higher is required.  Many high school graduates do not understand this and believe a university Bachelors degree means the start of a great career.   Better get near-perfect grades and have the time and resources to go to Graduate School in the field you choose or the four years spent obtaining a Bachelors degree is better spent going to a technical college or trade school.


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## Road Guy (Oct 16, 2019)

I disagree, I know tons of super successful people with "just" a bachelors degree.  Work comes before success, only in the dictionary...


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 16, 2019)

I agree with Road Guy on that, but I will say that engineering is one of the higher paid career paths that you can pursue with only a bachelors. Finance and software dev are the two things that come to mind that probably exceed engineering.


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## Exengineer (Nov 1, 2019)

I see that the days of just a Bachelor's degree leading to a good career even in an engineering field are on the way out.  Keep seeing Master's degree preferred or required for many positions.  But I have been following this for only 40 years so may be wrong.  My father had a good career in sales with just a Bachelor's degree in Economics (1949) but today that would get him a sales associate position in a department store chain.  Things have changed over the decades and not for the better.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Nov 1, 2019)

I have a BA in English and an MS in Engineering. That means I'm going to be a bazillionaire no matter what. Things are looking up for me, suckers!  :rotflmao:


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## Road Guy (Nov 1, 2019)

And only about 25% of the US has a bachelors and the world keeps turning. Success comes before work, only in the dictionary....


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## MA_PE (Nov 1, 2019)

Exeng.  First I need to say to you that jealousy is an ugly thing.  There are plenty of successful people that have a high school, trade school, bachelors, advanced degrees, etc.  none of these paths are guarantees of success but all have the potential.  As has been said in a number of responses so far, the primary element of success is work ethic and a passion for whatever job one pursues.  In most consulting professions these days advanced degrees are the norm.  This follows the progression of the value of a high school diploma in the 40-50s, was superseded by the value of a college degree, which has given way to the value of graduate degrees.  However if someone gets into a good company then it’s their competency and work ethic that leads to success.

i guess where I’m going with this is you need to step back and look at situations beyond your own personal experiences and stop generalizing your situation with the global circumstances.  There are no handouts and just completing a degree program doesn’t guarantee a high paying position.  It’s the work product that leads to success.


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## Exengineer (Nov 2, 2019)

Exactly what I believe.  There are no guarantees for anyone.  No one is guaranteed success, no one is even guaranteed an opportunity, anything can happen.  Hard work without the talent or ability is also no guarantee of success.   It comes down to a numbers game, if there are too many graduates chasing too few positions then someone is going to be left out.  It really is not that important that every graduating engineer has a suitable position or a long career because they can always do something else even when they get older.  I'll continue to do part time contract work and get a government pension with the knowledge that I have had a lot more free time than most engineers will ever have before age 65 and that has its own value to me.  Someone should be jealous of that.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Nov 2, 2019)

Exengineer said:


> I see that the days of just a Bachelor's degree leading to a good career even in an engineering field are on the way out.  Keep seeing Master's degree preferred or required for many positions.  But I have been following this for only 40 years so may be wrong.  My father had a good career in sales with just a Bachelor's degree in Economics (1949) but today that would get him a sales associate position in a department store chain.  Things have changed over the decades and not for the better.


It's true that many job postings list Master's degree preferred. But you should apply anyway. A rather small percentage of engineers actually have Master's. It's definitely a nice-to-have and can open some doors, but definitely not a requirement for the vast majority of positions.


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