# Pro Bono Work



## McEngr (Jun 26, 2009)

I have sent out two letters to architects saying that I will offer Pro Bono structural engineering work in hopes of starting a relationship with them for the future. I explained how we need to help each other in this economy and I'm taking the first step... something to that effect. After the fact (possibly a mistake), I thought that I may have mis-stepped because of the ethical implications of "giving to get." Can anyone site a specific example of this being unethical? I stated that I would perform pro bono for up to $3k invoice. Please comment.

McEngr


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## Paul S (Jun 26, 2009)

Are there any concerns with your liability insurance?


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## McEngr (Jun 26, 2009)

Paul S said:


> Are there any concerns with your liability insurance?


Our liability in the past has been based on a "not to exceed the fee" statement on our terms and conditions. That's all I know at this point. I'm self-employed in a sense with my firm right now (paid hourly as the work comes in).


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## Fluvial (Jun 26, 2009)

Are you still covered by their policy, then? If so, would it cover this pro-bono work?


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## McEngr (Jun 27, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> Are you still covered by their policy, then? If so, would it cover this pro-bono work?


Yes. Does that matter in regards to the ethics side of things? I would still be operating under the firm's rules and o&amp;e insurance.


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## Fluvial (Jun 27, 2009)

You're right, it's unrelated, sorry about that. My mind was wandering I reckon.

I'm still thinking about the ethics question.


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## Paul S (Jun 27, 2009)

McEngr said:


> Yes. Does that matter in regards to the ethics side of things? I would still be operating under the firm's rules and o&amp;e insurance.


If the law states you need to be insured then it could be an ethical queston.

Another question, would the work be for yourself or for the company you do work for?

If for yourself, would it compete with the company?


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## McEngr (Jun 27, 2009)

Paul S said:


> If the law states you need to be insured then it could be an ethical queston.
> Another question, would the work be for yourself or for the company you do work for?
> 
> If for yourself, would it compete with the company?


Hi Paul, Thanks for the questions/dialogue.

I am representing the company, so there is no issue with a bait &amp; switch or going behind their back. The more questions are asked, the more I'm feeling better about it. Nonetheless, I suppose I'm torn as to the ethical side of doing pro bono in order to gain a client. If you read ethics by-laws, they make it sound like marketing your services is wrong - as if clients are supposed to beat down your door. Anyone is free to chime in.


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## Paul S (Jun 27, 2009)

Here is my answer, taken form the PA PE Code Of Ethics:

"To attempt to obtain or render technical services or assistance without fair and just compensation

commensurate with the services rendered: Provided, however, the donation of such services to a civic,

charitable, religious or eleemosynary organization shall not be deemed a violation."

"To compete with another engineer, land surveyor or geologist for employment by the use of unethical

practices."

I would say yes, to offer pro bono work with the intention to acquire new clients would be unethical. I do, however, believe it is ethical to adjust "fair and just compensation" due to the existing market to remain competitive.


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## Fluvial (Jun 27, 2009)

Paul S said:


> I do, however, believe it is ethical to adjust "fair and just compensation" due to the existing market to remain competitive.


But you couldn't do that for just one or two new contracts, could you? You'd have to adjust your rates across the board, for some period of time.


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## the_gooch (Jun 27, 2009)

No doubt an unethical proposal.


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## GTjoy (Jun 27, 2009)

Paul S said:


> Here is my answer, taken form the PA PE Code Of Ethics:
> "To attempt to obtain or render technical services or assistance without fair and just compensation
> 
> commensurate with the services rendered: Provided, however, the donation of such services to a civic,
> ...


One option I would suggest is asking about/suggesting a potential pro-bono teaming opportunity with the other firms in a way that serves a local charity... For example: you can do a LEED certification application for a local non-profit. You still formalize it with a contract (and one of you can be a sub to each other with small/zero rates). I believe you can then report on your taxes the value of services rendered to the charity.


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## the_gooch (Jun 27, 2009)

GTjoy said:


> One option I would suggest is asking about/suggesting a potential pro-bono teaming opportunity with the other firms in a way that serves a local charity... For example: you can do a LEED certification application for a local non-profit. You still formalize it with a contract (and one of you can be a sub to each other with small/zero rates). I believe you can then report on your taxes the value of services rendered to the charity.


Beautiful response and a way to expose yourself w/o feeling guilty!


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## McEngr (Jun 27, 2009)

the_gooch said:


> Beautiful response and a way to expose yourself w/o feeling guilty!


I like the discussion guys. Now, if I proceed in this way, I would like to proceed without looking foolish (since I already submitted the proposal of pro bono). That's another story/discussion altogether.


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## Guest (Jun 28, 2009)

McEngr,

You might check out this document producted by the AIA, Institute Guidelines to Assist Firms in Undertaking Pro Bono Service Activities

I think the largest question here would pertain to the nature of the pro bono work. Are you prepared to offer these services in collaboration with these architects to a non-profit or other service-oriented group? If that is the case, then I don't see any ethical violations since most professional organization's canons *ENCOURAGE* civic duty via pro bono services.

However, if you are offering services 'for free' to either of the firms in an effort to solicit bid-work, then I think you are on slippery slope. Consider the NSPE Code of Ethics, following under *Section II* (Rule of Practice), *Paragraph 5* (Engineers shall avoid deceptive acts):



> b. Engineers shall not offer, give, solicit, or receive, either directly or indirectly, any contribution to influence the award of a contract by public authority, or which may be reasonably construed by the public as having the effect or intent of influencing the awarding of a contract. *They shall not offer any gift or other valuable consideration in order to secure work.* They shall not pay a commission, percentage, or brokerage fee in order to secure work, except to a bona fide employee or bona fide established commercial or marketing agencies retained by them.


I thought I would offer up some concrete information for you, though I don't really have an answer. 

JR


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## McEngr (Jun 28, 2009)

Thanks JR. I think I need to make a follow up to clarify the issue.


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## Paul S (Jun 28, 2009)

This is an interesting discussion! I wish you well in the final outcome.

The current issue of Structural Engineer magazine has an ethics article that can be read here: gostructural.com


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## Guest (Jun 29, 2009)

McEngr said:


> Thanks JR. I think I need to make a follow up to clarify the issue.


No problem - I am glad I could add something to the discussion. 



Paul S said:


> This is an interesting discussion! I wish you well in the final outcome.


I think discussion of ethics and outcomes is *VERY* important and has been pushed to the side by those who want to address the issues in a simplistic, punitive way effectively discouraging open dialogue.

I think there are MANY well-intentioned people who wander into grey areas and have few avenues to discuss issues like the one McEngr brought up. I wish that there were more venues to discuss it ...

One of the best discussions I heard on ethics came from a Raytheon recruiter when I was still in grad school. I liked the company's approach and format because they had an entire office that handled/addressed ethics in the workplace without demonizing people who tried to save money or advance product line schedules for the GOOD of the company. This lady was the corporate officer of ethics and said that 98% of all complaints brought about were really harmless in nature: only about 2% concerned serious (or potentially) serious violations of ethical conduct.

Anyways, I digress. Like Paul, I would like to know the outcome for you as well McEngr.

Regards,

JR


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## Roy T. (Jun 30, 2009)

McEngr said:


> I have sent out two letters to architects saying that I will offer Pro Bono structural engineering work in hopes of starting a relationship with them for the future. I explained how we need to help each other in this economy and I'm taking the first step... something to that effect. After the fact (possibly a mistake), I thought that I may have mis-stepped because of the ethical implications of "giving to get." Can anyone site a specific example of this being unethical? I stated that I would perform pro bono for up to $3k invoice. Please comment.
> McEngr


Not unethical but not very smart, you do yourself no favors and will likely be out of business soon as clients won't take you seriously and you won't be able to pay bills. It's a sign of desperation and one that tells people you are not very confident in your work.

People get what they pay for.


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## McEngr (Jun 30, 2009)

Roy T. said:


> Not unethical but not very smart, you do yourself no favors and will likely be out of business soon as clients won't take you seriously and you won't be able to pay bills. It's a sign of desperation and one that tells people you are not very confident in your work.
> People get what they pay for.


Hi Roy.

You make quite a few statements, which are purely speculation, and assume it to be an inevitable conclusion.


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## kevo_55 (Jun 30, 2009)

My :2cents: (for what it is worth),

There is nothing unethical for getting paid "x" amount of money. You, as the engineer, are to draw up some sort of contract (written or even oral), and as long as both parties accept the terms the deed is done. This is tort law at it's finest. It gets a little unethical (illeagal in some cases) when you start taking bribes for doing things with your seal, going behind your client's back to screw him over with other clients, and things like that.

As long as you cover yourself for any mistakes in your calcs (E&amp;O insurance), you're good to go McEngr.

Heck, you may even get to start your very own engineering company!


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## McEngr (Jun 30, 2009)

kevo_55 said:


> My :2cents: (for what it is worth),
> There is nothing unethical for getting paid "x" amount of money. You, as the engineer, are to draw up some sort of contract (written or even oral), and as long as both parties accept the terms the deed is done. This is tort law at it's finest. It gets a little unethical (illeagal in some cases) when you start taking bribes for doing things with your seal, going behind your client's back to screw him over with other clients, and things like that.
> 
> As long as you cover yourself for any mistakes in your calcs (E&amp;O insurance), you're good to go McEngr.
> ...


Well thanks kevo. I try to work with a clean slate. If my conscience feels funny, I want to check it with others before proceeding. E&amp;O isn't a problem per the principals. We've considered doing it for some nonprofits before.


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## Roy T. (Jul 2, 2009)

McEngr said:


> Well thanks kevo. I try to work with a clean slate. If my conscience feels funny, I want to check it with others before proceeding. E&amp;O isn't a problem per the principals. We've considered doing it for some nonprofits before.


I'd put yourself in the clients position before contacting them with the "free" engineering services offer. They are going to look at an engineer who is offering "free" design service and wonder how long the guy is going to be in business --- and what type of design they are going to get.

Remember, design can be anywhere from 5-15% of construction costs. A construction disaster MORE than offsets the benefits of "free" design service. I say this as an engineer who hires specialty consultants. what happens when their are problems in the field? what happens when the design needs to change?

I'd much rather spend the money on getting a good design (or geotech report) then worry about whether the engineer is still going to be around 6 months from now.

It's tough getting work out there - but my advice is to start with small jobs and build slowly. you'll have a much better reputation in the long run.


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