# What grade do you give the Engineering Community for Diversity?



## Road Guy (Jun 8, 2020)

Last week was pretty shitty for me on the home front, unrelated to the demonstrations but work and home life didn't have me in the best place  - but I've had the weekend to digest the current state of the world and I've been going back and forth with this page open for a while and am just at a loss as what to type, mostly because I have a tendency to put my foot in my mouth, not that I condone any type of hate.  I have two nephews who were adopted from Ethiopia and a few lifelong friends who are cops.  I don't want to see either of them hurt or hurt other people.  

~This forum has been going on for 15 years? And it seems that other than the occasional troll there is always good and helpful discussion (although we have strong opinions and as engineers we want to "fix" everyone's problem and sometimes that causes vibrant discussions ) - Id like to think that this mentality is the norm in our industry and in the workplace and our lives, but I know it likely isn't.  

I know from my 25 years in the industry we are far from perfect but I have seen growth, how do you think we do as an engineering community?  

A friend refers to me as _the white devil,_ so I probably have rose colored glasses on the subject I presume. without  looking at any metrics, I am in the B+ /A- category, am I being to good on ourselves?


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Road Guy said:


> how do you think we do as an engineering community?


As a person of color, I would (based ONLY on personal experience/observation) give our industry a soft B-/C+.

Overall, I've been REALLY lucky because whatever assumptions are made of me happen err on the side of positive, earned or otherwise. As a "model minority" which, I admit, is a kinda/sorta cringe-y term to my ear, and especially as someone with NO other technical/engineer-y/science-y family or other influence, I am totally self-made from that standpoint and have had to either meet, exceed, or fall short of certain expectations based only on my race from time to time, so that's kind of crummy. Sorry, I'm addicted to using commas!

Needs improvement: First, all but one of my supervisors and managers have been Caucasian. Nothing inherently wrong with that (again, in my experience only), but I think we can all acknowledge that senior management, in almost all industries, are overwhelmingly white and male. However, again based on my personal experience/observation only, nearly all my supervisors have been super nurturing to me as a professional, so that's good! Secondly, while I do have peers who are Asian (common), South Asian (little less common at least in mechanical engineering), Latinx/Hispanic (rare), colleagues are overwhelmingly Caucasian and I have only had one Black colleague in ~14 years working.

So, not sure I can draw any real conclusions from my VERY limited lens into our industry, but I can say we have a LONG way to go with respect to achieving true equality in our biz. I also acknowledge that I've been blessed, just by the sheer dumb luck by accident of birth, to have worked and grown up in a fairly or EXTREMELY (depending on where you, my dear reader, live) diverse region in America so I've been somewhat sheltered from overt/explicit racism (at least, any that I've personally noticed), though I have heard from family members who live elsewhere about their experiences to the contrary. So, that's lame.

I would close with an expression of appreciation for bringing up the topic at all @Road Guy. I mean, to even ask the question, think about its implications/consequences, and acknowledging that we can improve is half the battle and we definitely need more of it.

Lastly,_ white devil_ is a pretty pejorative term in Chinese. BUT! Depending on context, can also be very endearing. As in, you're welcomed as a trusted member of the in-group, cool! LS happens to be Caucasian so my dad calls her "round-eye" which is SO BAD but since it comes from a place of love/humor, it's acceptable (but, I admit, only barely). YMMV :rotflmao:


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## Master slacker (Jun 8, 2020)

Road Guy said:


> And it seems that other than the occasional troll there is always good and helpful discussion (although we have strong opinions and as engineers we want to "fix" everyone's problem and sometimes that causes vibrant discussions ) - Id like to think that this mentality is the norm in our industry and in the workplace and our lives, but I know it likely isn't.
> 
> I know from my 25 years in the industry we are far from perfect but I have seen growth, how do you think we do as an engineering community?
> 
> A friend refers to me as _the white devil,_ so I probably have rose colored glasses on the subject I presume. without  looking at any metrics, I am in the B+ /A- category, am I being to good on ourselves?


Here is my opinion, for the profession and life itself, regarding race, ethnicity, etc...  Stop frickin' seeing people as a color.  You want to continue problems?  Continue classifying people as a color.  Keep seeing differences and all you'll ever do is see people as different.

For engineers - are you white?  are you black?  are you mauve?  WTF cares.  Can you perform the duties of an engineer?  That's what I care about.  Same for nurses, teachers, astronauts, janitors, train conductors, art historians, chemists, and on and on and on.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Master slacker said:


> are you mauve?  WTF cares.  Can you perform the duties of an engineer?  That's what I care about.


150,000% agree! @Master slacker 2020? Yay!

Unfortunately...there still exist those who DO care, and sometimes in the worst way. So, that's just lame. Boo!


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Master slacker said:


> Keep seeing differences and all you'll ever do is see people as different.


My favorite takeaway at this time, and always will be, is this:







People are the problem.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

For the record, I would never hire a mauve engineer. Can't trust 'em.


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## Master slacker (Jun 8, 2020)

That picture doesn't contain my skin tone.  Here, I'll help.


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## JayKay PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Master slacker said:


> That picture doesn't contain my skin tone.  Here, I'll help.
> 
> View attachment 17906


I'm more concerned that it appears your arm is not attached to anything.  r u ok?


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

JayKay PE said:


> I'm more concerned that it appears your arm is not attached to anything.  r u ok?


Stop with your ableism @JayKay PE. Clearly @Master slacker gets on just fine.


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## Master slacker (Jun 8, 2020)

JayKay PE said:


> I'm more concerned that it appears your arm is not attached to anything.  r u ok?


That's not nice.  The part of my arm that's showing has had exposure to the sun so it's more tan.  The rest of me is so pale that I'm clear.


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## txjennah PE (Jun 8, 2020)

I appreciate this conversation. As a white person, there's not much I can add other than listen to different perspectives listed here.

But one thing I wanted to bring up about the "I don't see color perspective" - from the BIPOC activists that I follow, the issue with "not seeing color" is that it is then too easy to dismiss real systemic issues and injustices that DO happen to BIPOC on a daily basis.  

@squaretaper LIT AF PE I am dying at that photo.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Master slacker said:


> The rest of me is so pale that I'm clear.


@Master slacker are you so pale this is your *actual* skin tone?


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## Master slacker (Jun 8, 2020)

txjennah PE said:


> I appreciate this conversation. As a white person, there's not much I can add other than listen to different perspectives listed here.
> 
> But one thing I wanted to bring up about the "I don't see color perspective" - from the BIPOC activists that I follow, the issue with "not seeing color" is that it is then too easy to dismiss real systemic issues and injustices that DO happen to BIPOC on a daily basis.


And we all only have one vote, so why vote when there are hundreds of millions cast every four years?


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## P-E (Jun 8, 2020)

JayKay PE said:


> I'm more concerned that it appears your arm is not attached to anything.  r u ok?


That’s not his arm.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 8, 2020)

P-E said:


> That’s not his arm.


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## kevo_55 (Jun 8, 2020)

As a "白魔鬼" (white devil) I would give the engineering community a B-. 

Like MS said, we basically just look for people who can do the job. Race doesn't play too big of a role there. The real issue is getting the education to be able to do the job.

When it comes to race equality for education, I think this is where we should REALLY do most of the hard work.


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## blybrook PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Based on the few conferences I've gone to, along with personal experiences, I'd rate the engineering community at a B to B- in terms of diversification / understanding.

Personally, if the individual can do the job, I don't care what color they may be. I've worked with several individuals that don't appear "white" and each has brought their own experiences to the office which can sometimes help build the team moral &amp; understanding.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Maybe it has to do with my fields (material handling machinery, AE firm, and forensic engineering), but I have seen very little racial diversity in my career.  Out of 5 companies, I have had 3 black and two Indian colleagues.  Far less than the population percentages would suggest.  I haven't seen/heard any outright racism in hiring or treatment of coworkers of color, but I can't speak to whether there was racism in screening of resumes (I've never been responsible for hiring).  

I can say that each of my employers have been very diverse on the male/female spectrum...just not on the race spectrum.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Jun 8, 2020)

Oh, this is a difficult one to assess, based on my limited experience.  I think we maybe get a C, at most.  I know a lot of white male engineers. I also know quite a few female engineers, although that is partially because of my professional organizations I am a part of.  Let's look only at engineering, (we are full service, so have survey, landscape architecture, architecture and interior design), for just the office I work in.

There are lets say 31 engineers/engineering techs. We have 7 women. So, almost 25%, eh, ok. Of the 31, we have 1 person who is not Caucasian.

If you add in other departments, these numbers look better, but not by much. It goes to 4/60 non Caucasian, and 23/60 are women.

Of the interview panels I have sat on, all but one were white males.

We need to do better, but if the people we are seeing come in the door aren't very diverse (and I don't know, I only see the resumes of the people we interview), we have to start younger to get more diversity into the system.


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## mudpuppy (Jun 9, 2020)

I thought a lot about this during my 2.5-hour lawn mowing yesterday.

I'll start by saying I think as a whole the country has come a long way in a relatively short time.  My wife was shocked to learn my elementary school played "Song of the South" in class.  We sang songs in school talking about putting down "injun" uprisings.  I clearly remember my teacher explaining that "injun" was just another word for Indian when in reality it's pejorative.  I remember my grandparents talking about the "coloreds" and using the N-word.  Obviously none of this would be acceptable in open society, let alone in school, any more.  Granted there is still plenty of overt racism out there and there probably always will be, but society is changing and recognizing it's out there and isn't acceptable.

On the other hand obviously there is still a long way to go.  I also remember my grandparents talking about how their parents were invited to KKK meetings and attended a couple but decided it wasn't for them.  My grandparents seemed proud of that, but didn't draw a line from that to their own racism.  I think we're in a similar situation when we say things like we don't see color.  That is great, but it doesn't mean there isn't more that needs to change.  My wife's grandfather said he didn't see what the problem was--that there is no color to him.  Which knowing him I know he truly lives that.  But at the same time he can walk down the street and not have to worry about being killed by a police officer or a group of vigilantes like in Brunswick, but a black man can't.  (And I don't blame the police for that per se, but it's a real societal problem.)

I don't pretend to have any answers, but my point is we should be proud that we've come a long way, but at the same time recognize we have a long ways to go yet.

Turning to engineering specifically, I used to feel like my group was really diverse--we have, or have had, quite a few women and minorities--up to 50% of our group.  But in the marathon lawn-mowing it started to dawn on me that _all_ of the minorities I've worked with are foreign-born.  We've had Africans, but no African-Americans.  We have Asians, but no Asian-Americans, we've had middle-eastern people, but none born in the US.  Which got to me thinking about why that is? 

I do a  lot of recruiting for my company and when we go to universities we talk to lots of foreign students, but the American students are almost all white males, with a few white females in the mix.  It's not for a lack of looking because we go to every diversity event we can find for engineering and still have a hard time coming up with a diverse candidate pool.  Why is that?  I don't know really, but suspect it is a combination of a lack of opportunity for minorities coupled with bad schools.  But I can't pretend to know what it's really like growing up as a minority.

I mirror what others said above, that in general in engineering if you have the skills to get the job done, you're accepted into the community.  I give engineering an A for accepting diversity in that respect.  But as far as _actually_ being diverse, I think we're more like a D (but not for a lack of trying.)


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## Supe (Jun 9, 2020)

mudpuppy said:


> I mirror what others said above, that in general in engineering if you have the skills to get the job done, you're accepted into the community.  I give engineering an A for accepting diversity in that respect.  But as far as _actually_ being diverse, I think we're more like a D (but not for a lack of trying.)


Agreed, though I'll give us a B- on the "accepting diversity" front.  

I think it has less to do with the profession itself - I don't think the profession cares for the most part, there are just too many contributing factors at the pre-collegiate level that influence the overall makeup.  Excluding those that have "the knack" (and there are plenty of engineers who don't), I think most of it comes down to poor education at the K-12 level and lack of understanding and difficulty of getting the financial assistance needed to enroll in college, and that comes down to socioeconomic status, which has a strong correlation with race in many (most?) parts of the country.

I'm basing the above comments on American-born population - I think there IS segregation in the industry at the managerial level, but from what I've seen, I think that's attributed more towards a combination of how academics are handled internationally vs. in the states, and the economic status of the country of origin.  I do think US colleges focus more on collaborative efforts/personal interaction than schools from India and China as an example, and when coupled with language barriers, the people with better verbal communication and interpersonal skills gets the promotion, placing the foreign-born workers at an inherent disadvantage.  In respect to overall hiring practices, I think there are also many volume-based engineering firms that know they can hire foreign Engineers on the cheap, with little to no intent to ever promote or offer them professional development opportunities.  

I do know of one manager who is of Asian decent (I'm not sure exactly which country), has a thick accent, but is a nice, intelligent guy.  The company has no problem sending him to ASME meetings, etc. on his own to try and pitch work/build relationships, but when they go to some of the operating plants to try and do the same (e.g. WV/PA area), the company sends the slick-talkin' good ol' boy along with him to try to make the sale.  Shit like that is why I can't give the industry an A - I can't fault the company for recognizing the bias and adjusting for it, but the fact that they know up front that their clients across the country have various inherent prejudices says quite a bit about the profession.


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## Dean Agnostic (Jun 10, 2020)

We've come along way and now is the perfect time to create real reform and change at local, state, and federal level. Although my skin color is yellow, bad driver, cannot speak proper English and with a great smile; certainly, there are hierarchies of competence in my view. So for example, in your local and federal courts, you'll see the preponderance of attorneys/prosecutors are white males. In the NBA and NFL, the majority of players are black. In my psychology class, the majority of students were white intelligent females. Also, there are irreconcilable differences, so, regardless of skin color, if you were left to your own devices, you would certainly choose a career that you enjoy, grow and become very  successful.


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## Road Guy (Jun 10, 2020)

Federal contracts require a percentage of the contract to be DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprises) - and I find it odd that there really are not a lot of these firms around, we work on projects all over the US and we have a hard time filling this requirement on many jobs we have to pull from firms in other states where we would prefer local firms who know the area -

Ive even tried to talk my wife into going back to school because female owned would meet this requirement - but I wonder what is the push that gets someone to be able to make that leap? The engineering community certainly consists of individuals who have the skills to make this jump, I know some friends I have talked to just lack that first years loss of income they would lose in between leaving "working for the man" and putting out your own shingle?


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## Supe (Jun 10, 2020)

I think that's a huge part of it.  I'd say the overwhelming majority of engineers are risk-averse, and there are few professions that can be viewed as riskier than consulting.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 10, 2020)

Road Guy said:


> Federal contracts require a percentage of the contract to be DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprises) - and I find it odd that there really are not a lot of these firms around, we work on projects all over the US and we have a hard time filling this requirement on many jobs we have to pull from firms in other states where we would prefer local firms who know the area -
> 
> Ive even tried to talk my wife into going back to school because female owned would meet this requirement - but I wonder what is the push that gets someone to be able to make that leap? The engineering community certainly consists of individuals who have the skills to make this jump, I know some friends I have talked to just lack that first years loss of income they would lose in between leaving "working for the man" and putting out your own shingle?


yep.  Same issues here.  One of the labs/consulting I work with started out by a male owned company, passed onto the next generation, also male.  They made the decision to sell to the females in the family so they could get Fed work and keep the company alive.  The wives own the company and manage the lab while the hubby's manage the environmental consulting side.


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## csb (Jun 10, 2020)

Maybe a C? 

I don't know that white guys are still the majority for all of engineering in America, but they definitely hold the majority of leadership positions. 

It's still been in the last few years that I know I've heard, "Yeah, but will it be a 'thing' to hire a (insert non-white-male characteristic here)?" 

My grandfather was an immigrant to America. He came from Colombia where he was a doctor and continued to be a doctor in America. My mother has some of those kid-of-an-immigrant quirks, but it's not the same at all when someone says The Immigrant Experience. I definitely don't look like I have an immigrant grandfather. 

I am frequently the only woman in the room at work, but that doesn't follow me out into my normal life. I think there's a much bigger difference to be a POC in the engineering world. In my state, Latinos are the most likely person you will see making up the diversity. We've still had issues at work where even in the last twenty years smaller towns won't serve non-white people at restaurants. 

I dunno.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 10, 2020)

We are the complete equal opportunity employment package place from race to LGBTQ, but overall I'd Agree with csb on the C rating.


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## envirotex (Jun 10, 2020)

Road Guy said:


> Federal contracts require a percentage of the contract to be DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprises) - and I find it odd that there really are not a lot of these firms around, we work on projects all over the US and we have a hard time filling this requirement on many jobs we have to pull from firms in other states where we would prefer local firms who know the area -
> 
> Ive even tried to talk my wife into going back to school because female owned would meet this requirement - but I wonder what is the push that gets someone to be able to make that leap? The engineering community certainly consists of individuals who have the skills to make this jump, I know some friends I have talked to just lack that first years loss of income they would lose in between leaving "working for the man" and putting out your own shingle?


Just waiting until the side-hustle can pay the rent and the insurance...but maybe before then.


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## envirotex (Jun 10, 2020)

snickerd3 said:


> We are the complete equal opportunity employment package place from race to LGBTQ, but overall I'd Agree with csb on the C rating.


Same.  Most of the meetings I attend and  projects that I am on are still majority Caucasian and male, but a lot of my work focuses on an industry that lags behind other sectors, for sure.


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## Road Guy (Jun 10, 2020)

I work for a company that is based out of one of the flyover states, although its a huge company, most of senior management are white men - My boss was a female up until 2 weeks ago I was reorganized into the West Division - and I work for a guy out of Vegas that I have never met -  

But we are hiring literally all over the country and moving people to Denver and our office is getting more diverse than when I was hired a year ago.

My previous employer in Denver, although fairly vanilla, had a much larger female management presence.  But the vanilla part of that is just do to the demographics of Colorado I imagine.  I found it interesting that when our European, Asian, and even African "Big Wheels" [talking about the Continents] came for a visit (this was ATKINS) there wasn't a single person of color or a woman in the group. This was a group of around 20 + people and there handlers that came over to visit the US Peasants.

I have had many many clients whose POC with me was female &amp; maybe that is more due to the governments role out of a EEO plan?  - but at the same time these women were very much on top of there game.

At my County job, we had a county of just under a million people, probably 65% Caucasian, and we had a black county manager, even though he was a serious hard ass, he was excellent - the only county manager I can think off that lasted more than 20 years (most are not able to survive the politics) - but he had no black department heads (Parks, DOT, Library, Police, etc) - he got a lot of grief from that from the community and he felt that we didn't hire enough people of color at the entry level to feed into the county system- so he had staff make a push at career fairs but we never really got much attention from minority applicants - Actually we had a hard time hiring period because at the time our hiring salary range was way less than the private sector, even during a recession we didnt get many sniffs from our jobs postings and they would take months to fill. 

I am glad to hear your opinions,  I think its healthy to have these in writing at some level..

I know I look back on my career and have actually had more female bosses than male bosses. But that doesnt really mean anything.  I watched our County DOT hire a female director (they are now on there 2nd female director) - The first one was my boss.  It was interesting watch the old guys visibly upset that they now worked for a woman, and most got drummed out or moved to other departments.  She straight up transferred 4 old guys she knew would be problems on day 1 (&amp; those guys were worthless - even though we didnt replace their slots it was addition by subtraction.

So after reading my own post above I revise my score to a C


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Jun 12, 2020)

I'd give engineering as an industry a C- at best. People of color and women are significantly underrepresented in engineering and in STEM fields in general. The causes are too numerous and complex to try and get into here. But this has been recognized in the past 5 or so years, and there are many efforts to work on this. We'll probably have to wait a decade to see if these efforts are really working. 

I know all personal experiences are anecdotal in nature, but speaking for my experience. All of my workplaces have been mostly white males by a large majority. Women and minorities definitely exist but statistically speaking are very underrepresented as compared to the population. That's not necessarily the fault of the company or industry, like I said lots of causes of that. What really bothers me is that, the women and minorities who are there don't ever seem to make it into management or leadership positions. I do hold the companies and their leadership accountable for that. I don't think is blatant prejudice. I can only clearly identify one instance of blatant prejudice that I've experienced in my career, which I reported to HR. HR basically told me, (paraphrasing) "We know the guys in the field are racist; we can't do anything about that, so we focus on the office." WTF! Are you serious?! (Sorry, I'm off on a tangent, back to hiring of women and minorities) Rather it's just that people gravitate to, and feel most comfortable with, the people they most relate to and identify with. This leads to white men continuing to promote white men. It's a very subtle and hard to identify bias, but it's there. There's no individual situation where I can say this specific person was passed over due to race. But when you observe the patterns, it's actually quite clear.

And that brings me to the whole "I don't see color" thing. I find that offensive. If you don't see color then you don't see racism. If you don't see color you won't be able to see the patterns of under-representation or injustice. If you don't see color then you can't value racial diversity, which has been objectively shown to result in better and faster business outcomes. (True of all diversity, not just racial). If you don't see color then you're not working toward achieving equality for all people. Not seeing color equals ignoring race, which isn't good enough. Everyone, especially white people, need to be actively fighting against racism.
(I don't intend that as a personal attack on whoever said that. I don't know you and can't know your heart. But I don't feel like enough people understand why that thinking is problematic, so I felt it necessary to speak on it.)


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## csb (Jun 12, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> And that brings me to the whole "I don't see color" thing. I find that offensive. If you don't see color then you don't see racism. If you don't see color you won't be able to see the patterns of under-representation or injustice. If you don't see color then you can't value racial diversity, which has been objectively shown to result in better and faster business outcomes. (True of all diversity, not just racial). If you don't see color then you're not working toward achieving equality for all people. Not seeing color equals ignoring race, which isn't good enough. Everyone, especially white people, need to be actively fighting against racism.
> (I don't intend that as a personal attack on whoever said that. I don't know you and can't know your heard. But I don't feel like enough people understand why that thinking is problematic, so I felt it necessary to speak on it.)


I completely agree with this.


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## JayKay PE (Jun 12, 2020)

First off, I agree a ton with what JP has written.  Maybe it's because I was in NY/LI, but the lack of minorities and women in an office is grating when you're one of them, especially when you saw so much diversity in the general population just walking out the door.  My first office used to 'boast' that they had an almost 50% ratio of men to women, but that was total employment.  So it included HR and accounting (which seem to be predominantly women, yet the supervisors of those departments were men), and it was a geology firm that turned to engineering, so geologists seem to be predisposed towards having a few more women.  In that office there were 15 principals.  One was a woman.  Two were men POC.  The other offices associated with this firm were even less diverse...I think I remember one other female Principal in LA, but none others off the top of my head and I worked there for 5 years.



jean15paul_PE said:


> What really bothers me is that, the women and minorities who are there don't ever seem to make it into management or leadership positions.


This.  THIS IS A HUGE THING.  It's why I left my last company, and they seemed surprised that I stood up to them.  A big thing that has happened with me, not sure if this is a woman thing or a minority in the STEM field thing, is that I am promised something when hired, like a promotion or a raise or training that would help me move up the ladder.  As the date approaches, I'll touch base with the OM or my supervisor.  My OM kept pushing it off and then when I put in my two weeks notice he asked what they as a company could have done to keep me and was super surprised when I said, "Given me the promotion you promised me 18-months ago". The...lack of support when I actually want to move up the ladder and take more responsibility is super frustrating.  I've never been included in 'development' activities unless I fight to be included, throwing extra hours and backup materials to show I'm worth it, whereas the white guy hired after me with less experience is an auto-invite.  



jean15paul_PE said:


> "We know the guys in the field are racist; we can't do anything about that, so we focus on the office."


I'm not going to even go into the amount of unsolicited dick pics I've been shown/sent by contractors or some of the shit spoken to me while I was working on sites.  It's not worth it to even fight it, because they're "field guys" and "it gets rough" and "we do a lot of work with that drilling company, don't rock the boat".

I agree with JP.  I give it more of a solid C- than a C.  There is a lot of stuff I've seen and experienced that shows there is a long road for the engineering community to get more diverse.  People shouldn't be hired because of the color of their skin or their sex, but I also think some companies need to branch out from where they're recruiting to actually see there are more people who can do the work than those who are able to come to a job fair in the middle of the day (when most people who need to work are working).


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## Sirian (Jun 12, 2020)

As a female engineer (still white) .... I can say that I was lucky not to be harassed *more*, probably in no small part to meeting crews as part of a group rather than arriving alone to a site. I have been hit on and harassed multiple times to the point where it is something I can expect and shrug off when it happens.

To me it's a sort of an eyeroll reaction: 'Oh no, here we go again.'

Let's be real: this general experience is common for women, whether or not they are at work. Men just have a hard time respecting that I am trying to do a job here and no, I don't care how attractive you are, or that you just want to 'shoot your shot' because you only see me at work -- work is not the place for that. Wait until the end of the day after your shift! Give me an out! I cannot tell you how many times the whole 'having someone try to figure out whether I might or might not be interested' is just ... couldn't you have waited? To be honest I'm never interested in anyone that approaches me while I'm working because I find it so offensive.

The number of mildly or overtly misogynistic comments, the times when people turn a room or a meeting into a 'boys club' environment (because for them that's inclusive, that's bonding) ... the number of times my male colleagues complain about having families or about keeping a wife happy, or ask me if I have children (spoiler alert: childfree), or make comments that are "just a joke."

I have developed a potpourri of equally joking responses to all of this nonsense: "Sir, you're telling me you can operate an excavator, but a washing machine is too confusing for you?"

It's just mind-boggling.

And I love my job. Don't get me wrong. My job is the best job in the world.

*I hate how those comments and awkward moments ruin my day at my awesome job and make me feel like I don't belong.*

Solid C- from me for the industry. Because at least I have my awesome job, even with some crappy days. And I will put up with all the stupidity in the world to be able to do what I love.


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## Road Guy (Jun 12, 2020)

I assume the dating comments are guys your age or are they the old grey haired dudes (they are the worst)

Also I agree on the “don’t see color” comments - when I was in boot camp our CO said something to the effect of “were all green in his eyes” (US military In general is probably the most diverse entity on the planet) later our 3 black drill sgt’s told us that was Bullshit and if we ever said that they would smoke us for a week...

But anytime I hear someone say they don’t see color I think of the green comment for some reason—-


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## DoctorWho-PE (Jun 15, 2020)

Road Guy said:


> I assume the dating comments are guys your age or are they the old grey haired dudes (they are the worst)
> 
> Also I agree on the “don’t see color” comments - when I was in boot camp our CO said something to the effect of “were all green in his eyes” (US military In general is probably the most diverse entity on the planet) later our 3 black drill sgt’s told us that was Bullshit and if we ever said that they would smoke us for a week...
> 
> But anytime I hear someone say they don’t see color I think of the green comment for some reason—-


The amount of racism I remember as a child is limited. Due to growing up in a military family I remember people being singled out more for rank of their sponsor than anything else.  But really, that is neither here nor there in this conversation.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Jun 15, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> I know all personal experiences are anecdotal in nature, but speaking for my experience. All of my workplaces have been mostly white males by a large majority. Women and minorities definitely exist but statistically speaking are very underrepresented as compared to the population. That's not necessarily the fault of the company or industry, like I said lots of causes of that. What really bothers me is that, the women and minorities who are there don't ever seem to make it into management or leadership positions. I do hold the companies and their leadership accountable for that. I don't think is blatant prejudice. I can only clearly identify one instance of blatant prejudice that I've experienced in my career, which I reported to HR. HR basically told me, (paraphrasing) "We know the guys in the field are racist; we can't do anything about that, so we focus on the office." WTF! Are you serious?! (Sorry, I'm off on a tangent, back to hiring of women and minorities) Rather it's just that people gravitate to, and feel most comfortable with, the people they most relate to and identify with. This leads to white men continuing to promote white men. It's a very subtle and hard to identify bias, but it's there. There's no individual situation where I can say this specific person was passed over due to race. But when you observe the patterns, it's actually quite clear.


I am fortunate that the office I work in has had strong female leadership.  My mentor, and my first full time job supervisor, is the current office director/VP and has been selected to be the next president. However, of the 6+ (I think it is actually 8 now with some recent acquisitions) offices, only one has a female OD, and as far as I am aware, she was the first female OD in the company. She will be the first female president. 125 years of company history, and we have our first female president.  

As for field people, or clients in general, there have been a handful of times that I have really felt disrespected in the field.  Typically, it is because they see me and think I am young and inexperienced, in addition to being female. 

Tangent: at my last job, when I was an architect, I had a client who was 2 hours late for a meeting, walks into the office at closing time, then berated me because my male boss was not there to assist him with his project. I pointed out that as I was the one responsible for the design of his project, I was the person he was to meet with.  Then he yelled at me because his time was valuable, and I was wasting it. Excellent dude, really.


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## csb (Jun 15, 2020)

vhab49_PE said:


> Tangent: at my last job, when I was an architect,


Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're tolerant of a lot of things here, but we draw the line at architect.


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## DoctorWho-PE (Jun 15, 2020)

csb said:


> Whoa, whoa, whoa. We're tolerant of a lot of things here, but we draw the line at architect.


I know I know I know.  I saw the error in my ways.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Jun 15, 2020)

csb said:


> We're tolerant of a lot of things here, but we draw the line at architect.


@csb this NEEDS to be in your tagline or signature.


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## Dleg (Jun 16, 2020)

Great thread idea and conversation.

I've been a white guy in engineering for almost 30 years now, and definitely fell into the "I don't see color" camp when I was younger. I also felt like I got myself to where I am purely on my own accord, and that everyone in America has the exact same opportunity I have had, and they only fail because they don't work at it hard enough. It's only been in the past few years that I have realized that none of this is true, and like others have said here, it has only served as an excuse for me to continue ignore my own prejudices and, especially, the plight of others and my role in ignoring the problem.

I'd give the engineering industry a C- or even a D for diversity, personally. I base this in part on simple statistics that I have observed: the nationwide, governmental organization I currently work for is amazingly diverse. I am sure this stems from years of helpful policies that have made it an accepting place for all. However, when you split out the engineers (about 400 of us), it's a totally different story. We have some diversity, but nowhere near the rest of the professions. Of those 400, I can think of only 3 that were black. I don't know where to lay the blame for that, but I am sure it is more reflective of our industry than my organization.

And honestly, it was only in the past two weeks that I started to see the problem from a different perspective. Someone I know on this very forum said something about the people rioting, that they must be insane because they keep doing the same thing (rioting) and expecting different results. And it hit me all of a sudden that WE are the ones who must be insane, because WE keep doing things the same way yet expecting things to change. Now that I am thinking in this way, the problems all look very different to me. I think that's the same situation with engineering diversity. We need to stop thinking that the profession will just become more diverse because we are good people, or don't see color, or whatever. Well, it hasn't happened yet and it isn't going to unless we do things differently.  I'm just not sure what those things are, at this time, but I am willing to approach the problem with my eyes and ears open now.

(and for what it's worth I agree with @mudpuppy that it probably has to include fixing the disparities in the education system, which basically means our entire society.)


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## Ble_PE (Jun 16, 2020)

I've been thinking about this thread ever since RG started it and I've come to the same conclusion that a lot of others have. I'd love to say that we're doing great as a community, but I realize that we aren't. Like dleg just said, I grew up believing that I got myself to where I am based on my own merits and that everyone else had the same opportunities that I had if they would only use them. Lately I've realized just how wrong I was. 

I've been thinking back over my career and there has really not been much diversity at all amongst my fellow engineers. In my first two jobs out of school I didn't work with any minorities at all and only 3 female engineers out of about 20. My next job also didn't have much diversity. I think I remember 1 or 2 black engineers and a few more female engineers, but that's about it. I have worked with several Indian and Asian engineers, even some in management positions, but my current job is the first place I've been that has had a black engineer as a manager. There are quite a few female engineers at my current company, as well as several minorities, but again, blacks are very under-represented. I have no idea what the solution to this is other than what @mudpuppy and @Dleg mentioned in regards to our education system. But if I had to give a score, it would probably be a C-.


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## leggo PE (Jun 16, 2020)

I honestly wouldn't give the engineering industry even a C-.

If I'm going by "school grades", a "C" is considered adequate. A "B" is above average. And an "A" is the top. So by that metric, I'd give the engineering industry (based on my experience and general understanding) a D-. I cannot fathom how the industry is anywhere NEAR "acceptable" or "adequate" in terms of racial diversity. What even is "acceptable"? Is it even a 50% White / 50% BIPOC mix? I don't know. This has entirely everything to do with the American white supremacist society that I (and all of us) live in, and that I, personally, have benefited from, as a cis white woman.

I have definitely experienced sexism, that's for sure. I've seen very little female leadership in my 8 years in this industry. I can think of maybe two companies in the area I'm in that are run by women. That's not a lot, for where I live.

Currently, I think I work in a relatively diverse office in a pretty NOT diverse company. Of the 40 people in our office, we are close to 50/50 in terms of racial diversity (white and BIPOC). There is only one Black person in my office, and much of the diversity comes from Asian (Chinese and Indian, primarily) or Asian-American people, whom there are a lot of in the SF Bay Area; we also have three Mexican and Mexican-American engineers, who are all young and a few years out of college. There are seven women in my office, two of which are admin, two of which are on our drafting team, one who is new out of college, one who is in upper-management managing her own three person team, and me (and mid-level, not management). Our office is led by the two older white men who founded it.

I fully understand that my experience is completely influenced by where I have worked, which has nearly entirely been in very white areas of either the city I was living in, or the general region I was living in. But again, this speaks to the broader racial injustices that this entire country has been built on since its very beginning.

There will be no fixing the diversity issue in the engineering industry until broader changes are made in the way society is run, the way laws are written, the urban planning is designed, reparations are paid, etc.


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## mudpuppy (Jun 17, 2020)

leggo PE said:


> What even is "acceptable"? Is it even a 50% White / 50% BIPOC mix? I don't know.


I don't have a lot of answers on this stuff, but this question at least has numbers involved.  In the dealings I've had with recruiting, our HR says the affirmative action targets want the employee population to mirror the general population.  Which sounds fair at least on the surface.  When we get into recruiting, though, we find engineering students don't make up the same percentages as the general population, so it becomes much more difficult to achieve those targets.

I don't have the specific numbers for our company, but in general the US population is about 60% white alone, 18% hispanic, 13% black, 6% asian, which obviously has huge regional variations.


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## Road Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

I dont know the numbers, but the engineering world (Transportation) in Atlanta was much more diverse than Denver.  Many owners of medium and smaller firms were minorities, leadership roles in larger engineering firms tend to have a more diverse makeup (other than white women). 

I recall an event the City of Atlanta held to introduce DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise)  firms to the established (large and medium sized) engineering firms for teaming opportunities, and the City of Atlanta  staff that hosted the event was fairly irritated that so many (white) female owned firms showed up.  Under the Federal rule they are considered a DBE for federal projects, but the COA would judge your proposals based on if your were meeting or exceeding the DBE requirements based on _who_ your DBE partners were. 

I dont have any experiences working for the boutique sized firms that are often owned by 1-3 individuals, but in the Civil / Transportation world, the general rule of thumb is that "winning work" pays better and leads to more opportunities than "doing work" -I've often advised many younger people that I have mentored over the years that if they want that corner office and the larger responsibility / salary they need to do good work, but also to get out on your own and make some contacts,  its very strange how a long commitment to (the right) professional organization can pay dividends down the road - Actually in Denver the largest Professional Organization is WTS.


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## leggo PE (Jun 17, 2020)

San Francisco has a similar regulation where (I'm sure I'm loosely paraphrasing) construction projects of a certain size must include, for a pre-determined portion of the work, what is called here "Minority Owned Businesses" (which must have at least 51% minority ownership) and local businesses. I guess they also have wording for "Women-Owned Businesses" and "Small Business Enterprises". The company I used to work for was a Minority Owned Business and, I'm guessing, also a Small Business Enterprise.

I'd also also like to point out that most of the locations BIPOC live in this country is very intertwined with and often defined by the history of race and racial injustice in this country. This has happened with Native American populations, Black people, Japanese immigrants, and simply immigrants of all types. This inherently compounds the issue of diversity in the engineering industry, and truly, in all industries and in society country-wide.

Honestly, I'm very much learning about all of this right now, in a broader context. To echo and expand on what others have said, I have lived the vast majority of my life not even realizing I have been complicit in a white supremacist society that continuously beats down BIPOC and builds up white people. I have a long road of personal learning and outward action ahead of me.


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## csb (Jun 17, 2020)

I'm humored that there's a MOB hiring requirement. 

I was able to hear a talk a couple years ago that took issue with the word minority. He gave an example that Swedish-Americans make up a very small portion of the population, but that's not who we're talking about when he say minority. What it really means is non-white. The word itself has some negative connotations. For instance, the minority in Congress is the party that didn't win as many seats. It's the losing party. So when we say minority, it's like saying, "Yeah, not the winners." http://bellevillemessenger.org/2018/04/bishop-urges-us-to-listen-learn-think-pray-act-in-deans-lecture-on-race-law-and-society/

(bracing for "It's just a word!" arguments)


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## Road Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

I always thought the DBE phrase was strange too to be honest, &amp; I imagine it took several weeks for someone to come up with the term (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) - ?/


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Jun 17, 2020)

Focus on diversity rather than meritocracy is error, IMO. I'm looking for the best skilled and most capable and I couldn't care less whether they be blue, 20 ft tall, or have feathers.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Jun 17, 2020)

Audi driver said:


> Focus on diversity rather than meritocracy is error, IMO. I'm looking for the best skilled and most capable and I couldn't care less whether they be blue, 20 ft tall, or have feathers.


Sure, in a perfect world I would completely agree with that. The problems is that the traditional metrics of measuring who is most capable have bias and prejudice baked into them. Grades, previous work experience, recommendations, salary history, etc... all of those things provide an inherent advantage for incumbent and the people in the majority. In America that's white men. Minorities and women are inherently disadvantaged because there were biases in school, then there were biases when applying for job, then there were biases in who provides recommendations for whom, and the wage gaps are well documented.

My point is not to throw all that stuff away. It's still important. But other factors need to be considered. If you're basing your meritocracy only on the traditional metrics then you're potentially missing the best candidates and instead selecting the privilege candidates.

EDIT: Also regarding diversity. It's been proven that diverse groups consistently produce better solutions than homogeneous groups. There is definite value in having a wide variety of perspectives.


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## Dleg (Jun 17, 2020)

Like I have said, I previously thought like Audi driver, but I have come to realize how superficial that attitude is, and how it completely misses the real problem, which is the difficulty non-white people have in even making it to that point.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Jun 17, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> Sure, in a perfect world I would completely agree with that. The problems is that the traditional metrics of measuring who is most capable have bias and prejudice baked into them. Grades, previous work experience, recommendations, salary history, etc... all of those things provide an inherent advantage for incumbent and the people in the majority. In America that's white men. Minorities and women are inherently disadvantaged because there were biases in school, then there were biases when applying for job, then there were biases in who provides recommendations for whom, and the wage gaps are well documented.
> 
> My point is not to throw all that stuff away. It's still important. But other factors need to be considered. If you're basing your meritocracy only on the traditional metrics then you're potentially missing the best candidates and instead selecting the privilege candidates.


I don't think you understand an engineering meritocracy. It's where the project is done on time, within or under budget, and meets or exceeds the specifications. Those are the traditional metrics and they give fuck all about what color skin a person has or if they choose to marry a puppy. Your points about how, when, or where an individual (or duality, depending on how folks choose to identify) gains their education or qualifications aren't engineering metrics that need adjustment. If (and there probably are) biases in education exist, that's an education problem, not an engineering meritocracy one.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Jun 17, 2020)

I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a white male like myself was at a disadvantage going into engineering school. There was no "white male" or "white" or "male" scholarship I could apply for. The entrance review committee consisted of several non-white foreign nationals. Once I got in,  a person could make an argument I was still at a disadvantage. A healthy portion of the the professors I had teaching my engineering courses had accents that were difficult to understand. At least half where neither white or were female and there were exactly zero "white male" study groups I could join.

If there was one advantage I had, it was being a native English speaker whose text books were written in English (though at least one was written in English by my prof whose first language was not English).

All that said, I'm not trying to convey any "poor me" attitude about it. Just wondering how in 2020 there's still strong evidence of white male bias in education?


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## Dleg (Jun 17, 2020)

Edit: I posted a snarky GIF, but decided to delete it since everyone else in this thread have responded in a more mature manner. So far. 

But I will say that I do not agree with the viewpoint of Audi driver. I used to believe some of that stuff, but now I do not, at all. In the organizations that I have been a part of where diversity is encouraged (or enforced), I have only seen it result in stronger teams - yes I do believe stronger than would have been accomplished on the basis of meritocracy, had we just picked all of the people based on resumes.  

Some of the hardest working and most driven people I have met have come from very modest to even poor backgrounds, and often can't even get their foot in the door because of that. And some of the most mediocre people I have worked with have graduated from the best schools and with the highest GPAs, had the best looking resumes, etc. The concept of a "meritocracy" is deeply flawed.


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## JayKay PE (Jun 18, 2020)

Audi driver said:


> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a white male like myself was at a disadvantage going into engineering school. There was no "white male" or "white" or "male" scholarship I could apply for. The entrance review committee consisted of several non-white foreign nationals. Once I got in,  a person could make an argument I was still at a disadvantage. A healthy portion of the the professors I had teaching my engineering courses had accents that were difficult to understand. At least half where neither white or were female and there were exactly zero "white male" study groups I could join.


See.  If the rl was like college/academia, then a majority of the engineering supervisor positions would be POC or women, and yet, they're not. 

So there may have been a 'disadvantage' for you going through college, but that's because you're the norm.  The scholarships are there for those who wouldn't have even thought of going to college, much less going to engineering.  There are so many people I know who were amazing in my high school that just...haven't gone anywhere due to limitations, accidentally getting pregnant in high school, being shot and killed, etc. etc.  If they had the 'base' of being a white male, maybe none of that would have happened and they would have thought about going through higher education, but when you have bills that need to be paid now or else your electricity will be shut off, it tends to make putting everything on hold for a four (maybe 5) year degree less appetizing.


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## JayKay PE (Jun 18, 2020)

Dleg said:


> Edit: I posted a snarky GIF, but decided to delete it since everyone else in this thread have responded in a more mature manner. So far.


Um.  I demand this snarky gif.  Sometimes when things get too serious on EB I get confused.


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## JayKay PE (Jun 18, 2020)

Trrrrrrrrrrriple post to avoid the double post banhammer


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Jun 18, 2020)

Dleg said:


> Edit: I posted a snarky GIF, but decided to delete it since everyone else in this thread have responded in a more mature manner. So far.
> 
> But I will say that I do not agree with the viewpoint of Audi driver. I used to believe some of that stuff, but now I do not, at all. In the organizations that I have been a part of where diversity is encouraged (or enforced), I have only seen it result in stronger teams - yes I do believe stronger than would have been accomplished on the basis of meritocracy, had we just picked all of the people based on resumes.
> 
> Some of the hardest working and most driven people I have met have come from very modest to even poor backgrounds, and often can't even get their foot in the door because of that. And some of the most mediocre people I have worked with have graduated from the best schools and with the highest GPAs, had the best looking resumes, etc. The concept of a "meritocracy" is deeply flawed.


There are definitely advantages to having varied viewpoints and differing inputs, so don't mistake what I am saying for an argument for a team to be of all one makeup of race/color/gender/footwear -- it's how unique solutions to problems are created and developed. That said, it can have a negative influence as well, so balance it important (something not borne out absent a meritocracy). If everyone disagrees on a path forward or they can't come together to work as a team, those things are destructive to the outcome in a meritocracy, but if the goal is diversity no product gets delivered and you can say "yea diversity" and pat yourselves on the back as everyone walks out the door with their pink slip trophy.


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## csb (Jun 18, 2020)

Audi driver said:


> I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that a white male like myself was at a disadvantage going into engineering school. There was no "white male" or "white" or "male" scholarship I could apply for.


Is the disadvantage is that no one batted an eye that you wanted to attend college and get a technical degree? 

When there isn't a special group for you, it's because your group has always had the upper hand. 

Yesterday I was on a video call with 51 people and four of us were women. The main people driving the conversation were white males. When we're in person, they dominate the conversation. I have frequently experienced in that group those same men discounting my expertise and calling me sweetie and asking me where to find the snacks. This is a national committee of engineers. 

So forgive me if I'm not buying your disadvantage.


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## leggo PE (Jun 18, 2020)

csb said:


> I'm humored that there's a MOB hiring requirement.
> 
> I was able to hear a talk a couple years ago that took issue with the word minority. He gave an example that Swedish-Americans make up a very small portion of the population, but that's not who we're talking about when he say minority. What it really means is non-white. The word itself has some negative connotations. For instance, the minority in Congress is the party that didn't win as many seats. It's the losing party. So when we say minority, it's like saying, "Yeah, not the winners." http://bellevillemessenger.org/2018/04/bishop-urges-us-to-listen-learn-think-pray-act-in-deans-lecture-on-race-law-and-society/
> 
> (bracing for "It's just a word!" arguments)






Road Guy said:


> I always thought the DBE phrase was strange too to be honest, &amp; I imagine it took several weeks for someone to come up with the term (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) - ?/


A friend of mine who I've been having racial conversations with mentioned the word "marginalized" instead of "minority". I thought it made a lot of sense. I mean, heck, a group may not actually be the minority in a given scenario, but that doesn't mean they aren't marginalized.


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## leggo PE (Jun 18, 2020)

I really think it behooves us all (all being mainly white people, which I know is definitely not everyone here on EB) to do our best to educate ourselves and question how we have been looking at society.

I sure as heck know that over the course of the past month, my view of society has definitely shifted, and I intend to become a lifelong learner of the racial injustices in this country.

Audi, I don't know that we will ever agree on this. But, what you're saying is making me think you can't see the forest for the trees. An "engineering meritocracy" cannot be separated entirely from the society in which it exists. Such a meritocracy is entirely _informed _ by the broader society, in which it exists.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Jun 18, 2020)

csb said:


> Is the disadvantage is that no one batted an eye that you wanted to attend college and get a technical degree?
> 
> When there isn't a special group for you, it's because your group has always had the upper hand.
> 
> ...


I definitely know what it feels like to have folks discount your experience and to have folks dominate a meeting. I'd definitely help you fight those battles even if we disagree and even if you're completely willing to dismiss my perspectives.


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## csb (Jun 18, 2020)

I'm not dismissing your perspective. I'm more saying that you can't see past your own experiences to see what privileges you have.


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## kevo_55 (Jun 18, 2020)




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## Audi Driver P.E. (Jun 18, 2020)

csb said:


> I'm not dismissing your perspective. I'm more saying that you can't see past your own experiences to see what privileges you have.


But you've already been willing to assume things that aren't true.


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## csb (Jun 18, 2020)

What did I assume?


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## Dleg (Jun 18, 2020)

JayKay PE said:


> Um.  I demand this snarky gif.  Sometimes when things get too serious on EB I get confused.








(in the context of Audi driver's double posts)


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## aog (Jun 18, 2020)

The question for is about engineering as a career choice/job/community.  I think of it as "If two (or more) equally qualified candidates exist for a position or assignment, does the engineering community have a bias when picking the successful person?"  Or "Are certain people favored when performing engineering work?"  I have not personally witnessed (qualifier: in my own limited experience) racism or sexism as our society defines it today.

Earlier posts regarding the education system that funnels into the engineering field make sense to me.  It would be irresponsible to give engineering work to someone who is not qualified on a *technical *basis--hence engineering requires the meritocracy system which has already been referenced.  If there is a systemic problem in our field, the education (K-12) is where it starts.  And that systemic problem does not just feed into the engineering field.  It is a societal problem.

I give the engineering community a C+.


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## JayKay PE (Jun 19, 2020)

aog said:


> Or "Are certain people favored when performing engineering work?"


I mean, when the choice boils down to "White Guy A" and "White Guy B, but with a beard", of course no bias is going to be seen.


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## Dean Agnostic (Jun 25, 2020)

csb said:


> I have frequently experienced in that group those same men discounting my expertise and calling me sweetie and asking me where to find the snacks.


I completely empathize with you. What would be the appropriate way to address women in general, professional, formal, and casual settings?


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## Supe (Jun 25, 2020)

Dean Agnostic said:


> I completely empathize with you. What would be the appropriate way to address women in general, professional, formal, and casual settings?


I'm guessing by their name, and without the sexual innuendo.


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## Dean Agnostic (Jun 25, 2020)

leggo PE said:


> I have definitely experienced sexism, that's for sure.


Can you elaborate a little bit more? How did you handle it when you were in that situation?


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## Dean Agnostic (Jun 25, 2020)

JayKay PE said:


> I'm not going to even go into the amount of unsolicited dick pics I've been shown/sent by contractors or some of the shit spoken to me while I was working on sites.  It's not worth it to even fight it, because they're "field guys" and "it gets rough" and "we do a lot of work with that drilling company, don't rock the boat".


I can't imagine how you must feel. At the time were you able to report to your HR? How did you handle it?


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## csb (Jun 25, 2020)

Dean Agnostic said:


> I completely empathize with you. What would be the appropriate way to address women in general, professional, formal, and casual settings?


How would you address a man in that situation?


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## matt267 PE (Jun 25, 2020)

Dean Agnostic said:


> I completely empathize with you. What would be the appropriate way to address women in general, professional, formal, and casual settings?


My rules of conduct are to treat all women the same way I want my wife and two daughters to be treated.


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## Sirian (Jun 26, 2020)

matt267 PE said:


> My rules of conduct are to treat all women the same way I want my wife and two daughters to be treated.


All I want is professionalism, with respect for my qualifications, training, and experience.

As I joke with my friends who get frustrated with a racist, sexist society and who may or may not even send in their applications to jobs, because they lack the self-confidence and wonder if they're "good enough" for the standards of the mainstream meritocracy: "What would a mediocre white man do?"

If your competence is always questioned you begin to doubt yourself.

Here's a really good story about what happened when a male coworker signed email with his female coworker's name. I promise you both his and her perspective are worth a read. This is so true it's painful.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Jun 27, 2020)

Sirian said:


> ...
> 
> As I joke with my friends who get frustrated with a racist, sexist society and who may or may not even send in their applications to jobs, because they lack the self-confidence and wonder if they're "good enough" for the standards of the mainstream meritocracy: "What would a mediocre white man do?"
> 
> ...


Yeah, impostor syndrome affects a lot of people, but can be particularly bad among women and minorities.


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## csb (Jun 29, 2020)

Sirian said:


> As I joke with my friends who get frustrated with a racist, sexist society and who may or may not even send in their applications to jobs, because they lack the self-confidence and wonder if they're "good enough" for the standards of the mainstream meritocracy: "*What would a mediocre white man do?*"


I need this on a coffee mug.


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## ChebyshevII PE PMP (Jul 1, 2020)

Ok, I've held off on posting here for a little while on this subject, but here goes.

I used to completely identify with Morgan Freeman when he said that the solution to the race problem is to "stop talking about it" (This, to me, sounds a lot like the "I don't see color" mantra that's floating around lately). I think I now both agree and disagree with these types of statements; I agree in the sense that I should not treat anybody differently, in any sense, just because they are of a certain race or ethnicity (or gender, to pull that into the discussion). I no longer agree in the sense that we should simply ignore our differences or look past the systemic racism that exists. I honestly think these are two entirely separate issues, but are often taken to be one in the same (especially right now).

As a white male in a predominantly white geographic region, I do often find it difficult to see the struggles that people that are not my race (or gender) experience. If there's one thing these past few weeks have helped me realize, it's that I'm not the only person "in the room," and the struggles that exist are very real and often overlooked (if not outright dismissed) by people in my race/gender. To be sure, it has been an eye-opening experience, and I feel like I can start making changes in my personal behavior to help bridge that gap. Maybe that won't completely solve the systemic issues in our society, but I feel like it's at least a first step.

In terms of the engineering community's grading on diversity...I think we need to be sure to quantify the assessment a little more. Are we talking about hiring? Lack of harassment? Opportunity for advancement? I think the grade is different based on which you are talking about. For each of those categories, and from my limited perspective (obviously, I haven't worked everywhere, so I can't give an accurate score for the entire community), I think I'd give the following grades:

In terms of hiring, I would say the community gets a B/B-. Like others have said, I think the engineering community does a good job of hiring people based on whether they can do the job, regardless of the race or gender of the person in question. A lack of hires seems to point to a systemic issue elsewhere (probably higher education, like others have suggested).

In terms of lack of harassment, I would say the community as a whole gets a C- at best.

In terms of opportunity for advancement, I would say the community as a whole gets a D at best.

It's really difficult to quantify some of these, not just because I have a limited perspective, but also because a lot of these issues are invisible and difficult to prove. In light of these, my ratings are also influenced by what everyone else on this board has already said. So to all, thanks for helping me see some of these invisible issues. It is helpful.


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## Dean Agnostic (Jul 2, 2020)

csb said:


> How would you address a man in that situation?


It depends on the situation and context (e.g. body language, tone, aesthetic-perhaps these men like what they see, or maybe their digging your style,  and most men can see through your bones, etc.). 

You said these men dominate the conversation, discounting your experience, and in person they dominate the conversation and calling you sweetie. The way I would address it is to preemptively refute in  middle of the conversation, not in the beginning because that will put you in a defensive posture. Another way is  to change your mindset immediately and in your internal thoughts would be like: 1) OK mo$her$uc&amp;e#! I got this. I'm gonna refute somewhere in the conversation , or 2) OK mo$her$uc&amp;e#, I love this, or 3) OK mo$her$uc&amp;e#, I am the GOAT. Also, to be less agreeable in that situation will work. You get my point @csb.

Very Respectfully Yours,

Dean


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## Dean Agnostic (Jul 2, 2020)

I'll see you later @csb!


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## csb (Jul 6, 2020)

I like that you think I needed your advice.


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## matt267 PE (Jul 6, 2020)

Dean Agnostic said:


> I'll see you later @csb!


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Jul 6, 2020)

Sirian said:


> All I want is professionalism, with respect for my qualifications, training, and experience.
> 
> As I joke with my friends who get frustrated with a racist, sexist society and who may or may not even send in their applications to jobs, because they lack the self-confidence and wonder if they're "good enough" for the standards of the mainstream meritocracy: *"What would a mediocre white man do?"*
> 
> ...


I'm very very late to this party but OMG-this is my career mantra and it has served me well. I don't overthink what I want to say before saying it. I rarely apologize unless I really do something wrong.

Women tend to over-apologize about everything so I never over-apologize. I give a lot of thought before apologizing. The last apology that I gave was from forgetting that my team stopped the design on a particular element of a project because of a perceived funding shortage. We actually have the money. My bad... so I apologized. Before that? I called the owner of a company a child. lol That actually felt good. That guy is a pain in the neck. It was unprofessional so I apologized.

I apply for jobs with a "why not?" attitude and it's how I got the job I have.  I also ask for ridiculous salaries. Worst thing that could happen is they say no. I've received one 'no'. One.


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Jul 6, 2020)

As a professional with an intersectionalist identity (Black and a Woman), I give the community a D. 

Have you gone to a professional engineering/construction orgs national conference, attended the opening plenary, and actually LOOKED AROUND!?!? Balding. White. Males. 

EVERYWHERE!

It's not nearly a fraction of representation of the population in no way, shape, or form. I'm in the room and at the table for a number of design reviews. And on more than one occasion, I've had to say "as a woman and a mom, I am telling you this isn't going to work. I'm not asking, I'm telling you." 

Slowly but surely, we're getting more people of color involved in the industry but I'm not meeting them on the executive levels. I'm also watching how young women join our ranks and they eventually teeter out into Business Development, Marketing, etc. and not really staying on the technical side. I can tell you that there's a lack of mentorship at many firms. 

I grew up with the old African-American soundtrack of "You need to work twice as hard to get half as far" because I'm Black and a woman. I knew that I had to work hard. But it wasn't until I had a mentor (wonderful Bald White guy lol) who told me to make sure I knew my stuff frontwards and backwards and nobody could mess with me. So when I was in the field, and new to engineering, I came up against lots of older men who didn't like receiving direction from a "kid" or someone who was "younger than their daughter". Instead of doubting myself, I leaned in and told them how many ways they were wrong and the one way to fix it. It helped me to build a level of confidence in my management style and in my craft that no one could break down. So I stayed. But watched a number of young women eventually shy away from the field to hide away in the office.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Jul 6, 2020)

civilrobot said:


> I'm very very late to this party but OMG-this is my career mantra and it has served me well. I don't overthink what I want to say before saying it. I rarely apologize unless I really do something wrong.
> 
> Women tend to over-apologize about everything so I never over-apologize. I give a lot of thought before apologizing. The last apology that I gave was from forgetting that my team stopped the design on a particular element of a project because of a perceived funding shortage. We actually have the money. My bad... so I apologized. Before that? I called the owner of a company a child. lol That actually felt good. That guy is a pain in the neck. It was unprofessional so I apologized.
> 
> I apply for jobs with a "why not?" attitude and it's how I got the job I have.  I also ask for ridiculous salaries. Worst thing that could happen is they say no. I've received one 'no'. One.






civilrobot said:


> As a professional with an intersectionalist identity (Black and a Woman), I give the community a D.
> 
> Have you gone to a professional engineering/construction orgs national conference, attended the opening plenary, and actually LOOKED AROUND!?!? Balding. White. Males.
> 
> ...


There are a large number of excellent points here. But the one that I'd like to specifically comment on is mentorship. Mentoring (both formal and informal) is an underrated aspect of career growth. It's extremely important to have a good mentor to help you and to advocate for you when you're trying to reach the next level. The best mentoring relationships happen naturally. In my experience those organic mentoring relationships rarely happens for black employees; I assume that's also true for women. Like I said in my previous post, people are most comfortable with and most identify with people that look like them. This creates a disadvantage for women and minorities because their white male counterparts are much more likely to have those relationships.


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## csb (Jul 6, 2020)

civilrobot said:


> As a professional with an intersectionalist identity (Black and a Woman), I give the community a D.
> 
> Have you gone to a professional engineering/construction orgs national conference, attended the opening plenary, and actually LOOKED AROUND!?!? Balding. White. Males.
> 
> EVERYWHERE!


My *favorite* is when they ask me what company I'm a rep for because surely if there's a woman at the conference she must be a marketing person.


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Jul 6, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> There are a large number of excellent points here. But the one that I'd like to specifically comment on is mentorship. Mentoring (both formal and informal) is an underrated aspect of career growth. It's extremely important to have a good mentor to help you and to advocate for you when you're trying to reach the next level. *The best mentoring relationships happen naturally.* In my experience those organic mentoring relationships rarely happens for black employees; I assume that's also true for women. Like I said in my previous post, people are most comfortable with and most identify with people that look like them. This creates a disadvantage for women and minorities because their white male counterparts are much more likely to have those relationships.


My best mentoring relationships happened naturally. I was very fortunate to run across people who just took interest in guiding me and giving me opportunities. All were men and almost all were white. I had a client who was a Black man - stern, retired Army Colonel who loved war history. Other than us both having brown skin, I never really thought much about us having anything in common. The one thing I really admired was how deliberately he made his decisions, and in the consultant world this was rare - he actually stuck with his decisions, unless more information was provided and he was asked to change his decision. So anyway, I was leaving my company and this project, and that man pulled me aside and gave me some amazing advice about leading senior level professionals and how to navigate on a few different levels, one being race. He actually told me to always look around and see if your team is as diverse as your community. If not, fix it. Everybody brings something to the table. I rushed to my car and started downloading everything he told me into OneNote on my phone. I never wanted to forget it. I had one formal mentor, a woman. She was okay. She mentored me into wanting a new job. I knew I didn't want to end up like her. She did that thing where she learned to mute herself and the things about her identity that gave her a unique voice. She just operated like everybody else and didn't want to make any waves. Boooo!

Even if I don't have a formal mentor, there's one thing that I always try to do. I pay attention to communication styles, and other stuff, and I pick up on it, try it on and see if it suits me. I learned de-escalation techniques from a woman that I worked with when I was an intern in construction. When things got heated in a meeting, she didn't use cheeky charm or anything like that. She used the word "we" a lot. "It seems like there's a miscommunication on what is being asked and what's being understood by everyone. We can work through it and figure out what we need to do." I notice that the CEO of my org asks a lot of questions before making a decision, similar to the client I mentioned above. He also takes physical time to think before asking another question. I've had other leaders think, and then say "I can't make a decision right now. When do you need it by?" Just that straight forward controlled honesty. Keeps everything clear.

So watch the people you work for and the people you work with. Pay more attention to the good qualities rather than the bad.


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Jul 6, 2020)

csb said:


> My *favorite* is when they ask me what company I'm a rep for because surely if there's a woman at the conference she must be a marketing person.


Say it louder for the people in the back. lol


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## Dleg (Jul 6, 2020)

@civilrobot will you be my mentor? Just kidding - but only partially - it sounds like you have picked up a lot of valuable wisdom that most or all of us could benefit from. 

The organization I am a part of has a formal mentoring agreement program for engineers, spread all around the country. I've never participated in the formal program, but have had several of the "naturally occurring" mentoring relationships you mention, usually as the mentee. Those have been great. I am not so sure about the assigned mentors. I know several "mentors" who are in it for promotion credit, etc. and knowing them personally, I am not sure I could get much of value from a mentoring relationship (I know that's terrible to say, but true).  A couple of them who tried to mentor me, ended up being like the woman you mentioned - they showed me what I did _not_ want to end up like.

I think one of the things I have been learning from this most recent national discussion is that I need to step up, as an older white guy (not yet totally bald), and actively help those around me who are less privileged. Your post now gives me some great ideas on how to do that in the workplace, as a mentor.


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Jul 7, 2020)

Dleg said:


> @civilrobot will you be my mentor? Just kidding - but only partially - it sounds like you have picked up a lot of valuable wisdom that most or all of us could benefit from.
> 
> The organization I am a part of has a formal mentoring agreement program for engineers, spread all around the country. I've never participated in the formal program, but have had several of the "naturally occurring" mentoring relationships you mention, usually as the mentee. Those have been great. I am not so sure about the assigned mentors. I know several "mentors" who are in it for promotion credit, etc. and knowing them personally, I am not sure I could get much of value from a mentoring relationship (I know that's terrible to say, but true).  A couple of them who tried to mentor me, ended up being like the woman you mentioned - they showed me what I did _not_ want to end up like.
> 
> I think one of the things I have been learning from this most recent national discussion is that I need to step up, as an older white guy (not yet totally bald), and actively help those around me who are less privileged. Your post now gives me some great ideas on how to do that in the workplace, as a mentor.


It sounds like you've got it figured out but if you ever want to bounce anything off of me, I'm here. Shoot me a message and we can chop it up!


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Jul 7, 2020)

mudpuppy said:


> I thought a lot about this during my 2.5-hour lawn mowing yesterday.
> 
> I'll start by saying I think as a whole the country has come a long way in a relatively short time.  My wife was shocked to learn my elementary school played "Song of the South" in class.  We sang songs in school talking about putting down "injun" uprisings.  I clearly remember my teacher explaining that "injun" was just another word for Indian when in reality it's pejorative.  I remember my grandparents talking about the "coloreds" and using the N-word.  Obviously none of this would be acceptable in open society, let alone in school, any more.  Granted there is still plenty of overt racism out there and there probably always will be, but society is changing and recognizing it's out there and isn't acceptable.
> 
> ...


*brakes*

So, I can answer this (rhetorical) question. You're welcome in advance. lol

I've mentioned mentoring before and to be honest with you, it starts before college... or at least the encouragement part does. It's so important for kids to see themselves in our profession. I try my best to speak at events for middle schoolers and high schoolers as much as I can. I'm also involved in hands-on volunteer opportunities, going into city schools and introducing kids to the fun side of our industry. Last Fall, I went to a high school and introduced a bunch of young Black and Brown girls to aviation by building gliders, and having a contest to see whose could fly the farthest (tbh, I have way more fun than they do). I talked to some of them about their kids (yep! some of the 15 year olds had kids) and I just treated them like...people and not a charity case or anything. I also talked about where I grew up, what inner city schools I went to and what it was like in college. I'm honest. I tell them that it was hard and I didn't see many people who looked like me. I also told them that I was one of two Black women who graduated in my program and that I didn't let it stop me because I was focused on my goal. Kids sometimes feel defeated before they even start so I try to offer them a real life version of a possibility. I'm the "what if?" factor.

I also tell them stories about all of the lovely microaggressions from other White people who "didn't see color". Why? To show them that it happened and I survived it. I didn't run away.

Here's some of my _favorite_ hits:

1. I had a Calc 3 teacher write a letter of disapproval in place of a requested letter of recommendation for college. I went to a predominantly Black STEM high school btw. I was 17.

2. I had a Chemistry prof in college accuse me of cheating on my labs because I "couldn't possibly write that neat". Again, I went to a STEM high school where it was DRILLED in us to write in block lettering for everything...even non-engineering/architecture classes. She ran it up the flag pole and demanded that I receive a failing grade. I was dumbfounded. I was 18.

3. I had a the University Police Officer stop me on a college campus where I was taking summer classes because someone "reported that a Black woman was casing the offices and looking for something to steal." I was trying to find the badging office so that I could get my campus ID before classes started and I was lost. I was shaking and crying and the police kept yelling at me while their hands rested on their holster - "CALM DOWN! CALM DOWN OR WE WILL HAVE TO TAKE YOU IN!!!!" I was 19.

4. An oldie but a goodie! (and please, if you do this, just stop)  "OMG! In the summer, I almost get as brown as you!" (whips out arm and places it up to my arm to compare and giggle). Cringe-worthy for sure.

Btw, I'm not even 40 yet so these incidents didn't happen that long ago. 

Back to what I was saying before... so I know that sitting in a room where nobody looks like you isn't easy. It should go without saying but for those of you who are saying "everything is great! I don't see color!" yeah, it's awesome...for... you. But for those of us who have to face these ridiculous micro-agressions every day or almost every day, well, it's exhausting. We have to stay calm, don't make everybody uncomfortable, do our work, be the best, in some cases represent an entire race of people or a particular gender, and act like nothing bothers us. It's a lot.


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## csb (Jul 7, 2020)

civilrobot said:


> We have to stay calm, don't make everybody uncomfortable, do our work, be the best, in some cases represent an entire race of people or a particular gender, and act like nothing bothers us. It's a lot.


I feel this in my bones.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Jul 14, 2020)

I saw this and thought of our discussion. (Which has been surprisingly good by the way).

"Diversity" is a great first step, but it's not the finish line.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Aug 13, 2020)

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/doj-accuses-yale-discriminating-against-white-asian-american-applicants-n1236680


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Aug 13, 2020)

civilrobot said:


> micro-agressions


Um, your examples don't count as microaggressions. Those are regular-sized aggressions!



civilrobot said:


> But for those of us who have to face these ridiculous micro-agressions every day or almost every day, well, it's exhausting. We have to stay calm, don't make everybody uncomfortable, do our work, be the best, in some cases represent an entire race of people or a particular gender, and act like nothing bothers us. It's a lot.


I can relate! As a POC in a not-very-diverse office it's just easier to keep quiet, keep my head down, and be the "model minority" I'm expected to be...but the comments I hear (on multiple current event topics) are pretty cringe-y. My personal (and online) demeanor is pretty different from my office/professional one and I kind of wish I could be more outspoken in my professional life. I guess I'm not convinced that it's worth the effort/exposure yet.



jean15paul_PE said:


> Yeah, impostor syndrome affects a lot of people, but can be particularly bad among women and minorities.


@jean15paul_PE I definitely struggle with this in my professional life. I'm still a work in progress...

Aaanyway, regardless, I'd just like to reiterate that we are all scum. :rotflmao:


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## civilrobot PE etc etc (Aug 18, 2020)

Audi driver said:


> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/doj-accuses-yale-discriminating-against-white-asian-american-applicants-n1236680


I listened to a podcast about this. Disgusting. I'm angered by this. Why feign diversity by easing standards for one group and raising them for another? Kids are out here dealing with mental illness, anxiety, stress, and depression while trying to meet their goals and this is what's happening? I would be outraged if I was one of the rejected students knowing I did everything and more.


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## Dean Agnostic (Oct 26, 2020)

matt267 PE said:


>


LOL! I didn't mean it like that. It was actually a term of endearment/greeting, and I love her, respectfully.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Oct 26, 2020)

Dean Agnostic said:


> LOL! I didn't mean it like that. It was actually a term of endearment/greeting, and I love her, respectfully.


Respectfully @Dean Agnostic.

There was a whole lot of "man-splaining" in response to what I'm pretty sure was a rhetorical question. I think that's what the gif was in response to. 



Dean Agnostic said:


> It depends on the situation and context (e.g. body language, tone, aesthetic-perhaps these men like what they see, or maybe their digging your style,  and most men can see through your bones, etc.).
> 
> You said these men dominate the conversation, discounting your experience, and in person they dominate the conversation and calling you sweetie. The way I would address it is to preemptively refute in  middle of the conversation, not in the beginning because that will put you in a defensive posture. Another way is  to change your mindset immediately and in your internal thoughts would be like: 1) OK mo$her$uc&amp;e#! I got this. I'm gonna refute somewhere in the conversation , or 2) OK mo$her$uc&amp;e#, I love this, or 3) OK mo$her$uc&amp;e#, I am the GOAT. Also, to be less agreeable in that situation will work. You get my point @csb.
> 
> ...


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## csb (Oct 26, 2020)

This again?!


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## Road Guy (Oct 26, 2020)

yes dear

:mf_Flush:


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## Dean Agnostic (Nov 4, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> Respectfully @Dean Agnostic.
> 
> There was a whole lot of "man-splaining" in response to what I'm pretty sure was a rhetorical question. I think that's what the gif was in response to.


You're probably right my ninja. I think @deanagnostic thought he was talking to his sister.


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## Dean Agnostic (Nov 4, 2020)

Racial balancing or to mandate a certain number of specific race is unconstitutional according to U.S. Supreme Court and lower court case laws.


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## Dean Agnostic (Nov 4, 2020)

Racial balancing or to mandate a certain number of specific race is unconstitutional according to U.S. Supreme Court and lower court case laws.

Fisher (Plaintiff) V. University of Texas, Et.al. (defendants),

Decision: 4 to 3

Majority: Associate Justices-Sotomayor, Notorious RBG, another female judge who recused herself, etc.


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