# When to start looking or change your attitude?



## HornTootinEE (Mar 25, 2010)

So when do you start looking for other employment or just change your outlook/attitude? Any opinions?


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## Kephart P.E. (Mar 25, 2010)

About the time you ask for advice from strangers online.

Seriously, if you dread going into work most days it is probably time, unless you think there is hope that things will improve.

To be honest with you this is why I became an Engineer and got my PE so I would never be stuck in a job I hated, but couldn't afford to quit.


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## HornTootinEE (Mar 25, 2010)

HAHA Nice... when I start asking strangers online.

No, I was more curious about people's opinions. What do you put up with from a job, what do you not put up with in a job?


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## rppearso (Mar 25, 2010)

That is a super vauge question. I dont put up with unethical people or substandard compensation and ethics spans a great distance (ex if a boss wants me to work long hours and wont compensate me as I see fit then I will just go home and he is in the wrong, its unethical to put someone in a position to sacrafice time with there family with no reward for that family for that sacrafice), if you want me to stamp something and take liability for it when it was not my work, sorry find some other schmuck. when you want me to work on a project and stamp it for inadaquate compensation that I determine based on the largest amount of money the market will bare for my time and skills. Right now I am paying off debt so I am in a bit of a vulnerable position but I am ballooning out all my debts including my mortgage so that I can afford to take staunch stances on such things while at the same time making myself a super star engineer in my market. As another poster pointed out the reason I went through the hell of an engineering degree and the PE exam as well as other misc training was so that I would not be expendable. I am also not going to tolerate micro management, if you want to micro manage someone go get a mcdonalds worker or a high school student.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 25, 2010)

dammit


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 25, 2010)

Shit...someone reopened rppearso's box.


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## maryannette (Mar 26, 2010)

Hey, djohnson, you can see I really do think it's all about attitude. I've been in some jobs from hell. I've never been in a position that I could just walk away, so I learned to tolerate and adapt. If you think you need to make a change, you probably do. It's a bad time to be looking for a better job. Most are thankful to have a job. Until you can get out, ADAPT! You will survive.


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## JoeBoone82 (Mar 26, 2010)

rppearso said:


> ... I dont put up with substandard compensation.....


That's something that I've always wondered about. In the private industry those numbers are SO private that I really do not know how I compare to others. I know that we had a good thread on here about compensation, but it's difficult to find a large pool of your discipline that is in your geographic location to compare with. I always wonder what some around me are making, perhaps based on things like same college as management, kissing tail, etc and not on quality of work. What do you guys usually compare with? I've been at the same place since the summer internship before my last year of school.


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## MechGuy (Mar 26, 2010)

Damn I thought he finally went away.

anyway, Mary is right. It's all about your specific situation and whether you can afford to leave and go looking for another position or not. If you're depending on this job for income and don't have alot in the bank, then you'll just have to find a way to deal with the situation until you can afford to look elsewhere.

If you can afford it now, then what are you waiting for? Find something else!


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## MechGuy (Mar 26, 2010)

JoeBoone82 said:


> rppearso said:
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> 
> > ... I dont put up with substandard compensation.....
> ...


Salary.com is a good resrouce to find a range of compensation for specific careers in different geographical regions...


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## Mike in Gastonia (Mar 26, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> JoeBoone82 said:
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> > rppearso said:
> ...


Or you could just have some totally unrealistic expectations based not on facts, but only what the voices in your head say. Like one person in this thread who shall remain nameless

rppearso

...........


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## mizzoueng (Mar 26, 2010)

+1 with the asking online 

I'm looking now, but I am not "changing my attitude", well, not much anyways. My supervisors supervisor (1+1) has a "sacrifice your life for the company" outlook on life. Its what he has always done and he thinks that everyone should do it as well. Now he has gotten some of the managers to go along with it, so that was my cue to start looking. I will still adapt and roll along with whatever comes my way, but it doesn't stop me from looking.


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## HornTootinEE (Mar 26, 2010)

Sorry to open a sour conversation to some, I was just curious what other people think. It was a vague question intentionally. I wanted to see what people's reactions were


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## EnvEngineer (Mar 26, 2010)

I think the most important time to look is when you feel your current postion will not meet your overall goals. I dont just mean $$. I assess all my needs and have always had a 5 year written plan of where I am going. How much time off do I need, what travel do I want, How much $$, what is my career goal and education goals, certification goals, is this a good retirement track. Goals can be a big attitude changer because it fill the blank space of why am I here doing this? Each year you can track how much progress you have made and decide if you want to make changes in your goals.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 26, 2010)

When they bring in a business consultant, it is time to update the resume and hit Monster...


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## Dexman PE (Mar 26, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> When they bring in a business consultant, it is time to update the resume and hit Monster...


I wouldn't say I am "missing" work, Bob...


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## JoeBoone82 (Mar 26, 2010)

mizzoueng said:


> +1 with the asking online
> I'm looking now, but I am not "changing my attitude", well, not much anyways. My supervisors supervisor (1+1) has a "sacrifice your life for the company" outlook on life. Its what he has always done and he thinks that everyone should do it as well. Now he has gotten some of the managers to go along with it, so that was my cue to start looking.


I got an "interview" Q/A email a while back that was related to this... here are a couple of the responses:

Q: What is your advice to professionals?

A: Like Narayan Murthy had said “ love your job and not your company because you never know when your company will stop loving you. In the same lines, love yourself and your family needs more than the company's needs. Companies can keep coming and going; family will always remain the same. Make money for yourself first and simultaneously make money for the company, not the other way around.

Q: What is your biggest pain point with companies?

A: When a company does well, its CEO will address the entire company saying, ˜well done guys, it is YOUR company, keep up the hard work, I am with you. But when the slowdown happens and the company does not do so well, the same CEO will say, It is MY company and to save the company, I have to take tough decisions including asking people to go. So think about your financial stability first; when you get laid off, your kids will complain to you and not your boss.


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## MechGuy (Mar 26, 2010)

JoeBoone82 said:


> mizzoueng said:
> 
> 
> > +1 with the asking online
> ...



I don't agree with either of those statements personally. If you don't love both your job AND your company, you'll never be truly happy or successful in my book. If you don't love your company, you should go work for someone else. I do agree that your family always should come first no matter what however.

I don't agree with the statement about making money for yourself. To me that means that the money is more important than the career. I think in the opposite fashion. Money isn't everything, but having a job you love and are passionate about is. You'll never be happy if you're always chasing money.

It's a double bonus if you can find a job that you have a passion that also brings home the bucks.

As far as the second Q/A goes, I have never been in that position with my company. But from a business point, it makes sense. Can't blame the CEO for letting people go in a downturn. It sucks, but that's just business.


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## rppearso (Mar 26, 2010)

JoeBoone82 said:


> rppearso said:
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> > ... I dont put up with substandard compensation.....
> ...


I tried thoes salery.com things and they show really low figures, im not sure what its based on. The way I find out is by asking around, if you can net work well enough you can figure out what people are making and more importantly what contracting agencies are paying vs a direct hire employee of an E&amp;C or even a client company, you can have 2 exact same position with maybe just a small amount of varience in years of experiecne (like 5 years at the most) and the salery differeance can be 100% different because one is a contractor and one is direct hire. You have to know what the largest amount of money you can make is that the market will bare, not the medium otherwise you will always be broke and forced to work somewhere you dont want to, if they can always get away with paying you a substandard wage you will never be able to stack cash away in the bank and you will always be dependant. Its a tangled web depending on area and disipline and when one of my colueges agrees to work for a reduced rate I get kind of upset becuase it effects the rest of us by setting a negitive precident, they think oh we can use the "bad market" to rip off engineers when the "bad market" really does not affect his specific position otherwise the position would not be open lolj. IF there is no work there is no work but if there is a position we should be getting full blown fatty checks otherwise what is the point of even being an engineer.


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## jeb6294 (Mar 26, 2010)

:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

Ha Ha !!!

I WIN!!!


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## mrt406 (Mar 26, 2010)

rppearso said:


> I tried thoes salery.com things and they show really low figures, im not sure what its based on. The way I find out is by asking around, if you can net work well enough you can figure out what people are making and more importantly what contracting agencies are paying vs a direct hire employee of an E&amp;C or even a client company, you can have 2 exact same position with maybe just a small amount of varience in years of experiecne (like 5 years at the most) and the salery differeance can be 100% different because one is a contractor and one is direct hire. You have to know what the largest amount of money you can make is that the market will bare, not the medium otherwise you will always be broke and forced to work somewhere you dont want to, if they can always get away with paying you a substandard wage you will never be able to stack cash away in the bank and you will always be dependant. Its a tangled web depending on area and disipline and when one of my colueges agrees to work for a reduced rate I get kind of upset becuase it effects the rest of us by setting a negitive precident, they think oh we can use the "bad market" to rip off engineers when the "bad market" really does not affect his specific position otherwise the position would not be open lolj. IF there is no work there is no work but if there is a position we should be getting full blown fatty checks otherwise what is the point of even being an engineer.



I really hope you're not expected to write reports as part of your job. Seriously... didn't you have any English/Writing classes you had to take as part of your curriculum? That is... if you did, in fact, actually go to college.

It's hard enough trying to take the stuff you say seriously without the horrendous spelling and grammar. I mean... what would your "colueges" say if they saw this?


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## rppearso (Mar 26, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> JoeBoone82 said:
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> > mizzoueng said:
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The money is your carrer, a "passion" that does not bring in the big bucks is called a hobbie, I totally agree with thoes statements, I could care less about my company, I am there to provide a service and make money I am not a share holder in my company. If I were a full share share holder then it would be a different story. Positions, company given titles, and company authority (head manager, etc) mean nothing to me, personal titles mean everything (PE, EIT, MS, PhD, PMP) becuase you take them with you. Companys come and go, but you are the engineer, you are the bad ass, you may be temporarily dependant on the company for a paycheck but your company does not define you as an engineer so long as you do good work and can net work within the organization for a good reference witha coluege you respect.


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## MechGuy (Mar 26, 2010)

rppearso said:


> MechGuy said:
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> > JoeBoone82 said:
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I'm sorry for anyone who has or will ever have to work with you.


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## rppearso (Mar 26, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> rppearso said:
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> > MechGuy said:
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People enjoy working with me and most people I went to school with and work with now did not go into engineering to work for non profiti charities so they understand that cash flow is king, they have families and aspirations that require substantial money as well, I sometimes feel like I am talking to habitat for humanity or some non profit on here. Even client company videos (oil companies) I have watched have said we are all here to make money, no one is there to work for free.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 26, 2010)

Here's rppearso's world:

&lt;$100k - Non-profit organization / poor farm / working for "free"

&gt;$100k - fatty money.

What an idiot.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 26, 2010)

Methinks rppearso doesn't understand the concept of a "non-profit" company. It doesn't mean that salaries are low or non-existent at those companies. It just means that they do not produce a profit for shareholders or owners at the end of every year. In fact, I know several engineers that work for Battelle, which is a non-profit company, that make what rppearso would consider "fatty money".


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## EM_PS (Mar 27, 2010)

I thought this article in PE mag a few months back was pretty good:



> December 2009 NSPE TODAY: OUTLOOK
> 
> Some Fatherly Thoughts for Young Professionals
> 
> ...


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## maryannette (Mar 27, 2010)

It is a good article and good advice that I will share with my daughthers.


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## rudy (Mar 27, 2010)

Agree. Excellent advice.


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## jeb6294 (Mar 29, 2010)

rppearso said:


> MechGuy said:
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> 
> > I'm sorry for anyone who has or will ever have to work with you.


I'm sorry for anyone who has to read his posts. I can feel myself getting just a little bit dumber every time I read one.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 29, 2010)

At our department meeting this morning, we were informed that since we are slow, we are expected to burn PTO days when we run out of work. If we do not have enough accumulated PTO days, we may be asked to take days off without pay. It was less than a year ago when we were busier than a 4 peckered rabbit, and they implemented semi-required overtime (for which I do not get paid). IMHO, they cannot have their cake and eat it too. I'm starting to look again because I genuinely do not feel that my job is secure at this point, and I don't really feel any loyalty to a company that thinks it's OK to treat employees like this.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 29, 2010)

after having a long talk with my wife last night, I think I'm in the job hunt as well. While I love working with the people I do and the company itself is nice to work for, some of the "unofficial policies" that seem to have become the norm is getting quite irritating. I have been listening to several key people in the company repeat the "it's going to get better....next month" crap for too long. They then ask everyone to keep their utilization/billable hours as high as possible, but then get mad when there just isn't anything to do. I've seen a few decent positions in the area open up which might be a sign it's time to move on.

Oh well, guess it doesn't hurt to check...


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## mizzoueng (Mar 29, 2010)

Boy Dex, that sounds familiar. Sure we don't work for the same company??

The "standard policy" crap drives me insane. If its not written in the employee policy manual, *THEN IT IS NOT STANDARD NOR POLICY*


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## TranspoVA (Mar 30, 2010)

Sounds similar to what I am/was dealing with here...They treat everyone like crap because the economy is slow. It pisses me off to to get company propaganda in December that says blablabla we had a stellar year keep up the good work...couldnt have done it without you, then in January they say oh no raises your lucky to have a job. Plus the attitude here is fall in line or risk being laid off...

The upside is 4 more days to go!


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 30, 2010)

I just got a call to set up a phone interview from the only resume I have sent out so far. The job looks insanely interesting (forensic engineering), so I hope something comes of it.


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## TranspoVA (Mar 30, 2010)

That sounds somewhat interesting...Is it in KY or would you have to relocate?


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## jeb6294 (Mar 30, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I just got a call to set up a phone interview from the only resume I have sent out so far. The job looks insanely interesting (forensic engineering), so I hope something comes of it.


It's not some company out of Chicago is it? Every once in a while I'll get some junk mail from some 'company' out of Chicago (I think that's where they are) that says they're looking for forensic engineers. I checked with a few other people I know around here and we decided it was junk mail that just gets sent to everyone in Ohio website with a PE.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 30, 2010)

TranspoVA said:


> That sounds somewhat interesting...Is it in KY or would you have to relocate?


Yeah, it's in Louisville.



jeb6294 said:


> It's not some company out of Chicago is it? Every once in a while I'll get some junk mail from some 'company' out of Chicago (I think that's where they are) that says they're looking for forensic engineers. I checked with a few other people I know around here and we decided it was junk mail that just gets sent to everyone in Ohio website with a PE.


It's HQ'd in Louisville, but I do believe they have an office in Chicago. I haven't ever heard of the company until I found a job listing on CareerBuilder, so I don't think it's the same joint.


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## mizzoueng (Mar 30, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I just got a call to set up a phone interview from the only resume I have sent out so far. The job looks insanely interesting (forensic engineering), so I hope something comes of it.


THere are a few listings in St Louis for Forensic Engineers as well. There are some requirements, but they say training is provided. I think its listed under Yoh Inc. or something like that.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 30, 2010)

This place is called Donan Engineering.


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## TranspoVA (Mar 30, 2010)

Thats pretty neat looking...Whens the interview


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 31, 2010)

It's really a phone screening (packaged questions from the HR director followed by a personality assessment that will then be packaged with my resume and cover letter and sent to the technical people). But it's on Monday afternoon.


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## chaosiscash (Mar 31, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> semi-required overtime (for which I do not get paid).


Thats just crazy talk. If they bill the time to the client, you should get your piece. Thats why I left my first job out of college, and haven't looked back since.



> I'm starting to look again because I genuinely do not feel that my job is secure at this point, and I don't really feel any loyalty to a company that thinks it's OK to treat employees like this.


Good luck with the job hunt.


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## NEED2009 (Mar 31, 2010)

always keep your eyes open for opportunities

attend your local society meetings and get to know people even if you are not looking where sort like saying, I do exist.

best of luck


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## Ble_PE (Apr 1, 2010)

In light of the recent layoffs and general mood around the office, I've been looking to polish up my resume a little and start browsing job sites again. I was just curious what kind of format some of ya'll are using for your resumes? It's been a while since I've used my personal one since I keep the one updated that the marketing dept. uses at my current job. Any tips would be greatly appreciated!


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## Dexman PE (Apr 1, 2010)

Just updated my resume too. I went with a traditional+marketing hybrid. First page shows Skills, Registrations.Certifications, Employment History (only companies, dates, position held), and Education). Pages 2 and 3 contain "Project Experience" where I list each of the major projects and a quick 2-3 sentence description of duties and work done.


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## mizzoueng (Apr 1, 2010)

Mine is the traditional Word version. Its the one I used 4 years ago to land my current job and was well received back then. I have just updated it to include my current position.

My cover letter is a little longer though to explain a few things. I am sure if I change the format of my resume I could shorten it.

Personally, my opinion of a resume is:

1. Education

2. Work

3. Honors/Certs/Lic

4. Random other things that are pertinent to the position

Usually 1 page, but with 5 years up to 2, and 1 page after that for 10+. Three pages tends to be a little long and if I were the hiring manager I would want to read through 3+ page resumes if I had a lot of applicants.


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## udpolo15 (Apr 2, 2010)

mizzoueng said:


> Mine is the traditional Word version. Its the one I used 4 years ago to land my current job and was well received back then. I have just updated it to include my current position.
> My cover letter is a little longer though to explain a few things. I am sure if I change the format of my resume I could shorten it.
> 
> Personally, my opinion of a resume is:
> ...


I would argue that anything over 1 page with under 10 years of experience is too much, though I am sure certain situations could warrant more. I think the order of how you lay it out depends on objective. If you are 5 years out of school and just trying to move laterally, then I would have work exp first. If you just got an advanced degree that qualifies for other jobs, list that first.

Make sure that the bullets points are strong action verbs. Also Action/Problem/Results. (ie, "Developed innovated solution for client facing XXXX saving client significant capex.")


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## Dexman PE (Apr 2, 2010)

I really wanted to shorten mine as much as I could, but I couldn't seem to get under 3 pages. The first page works well as a stand-alone resume. Pages 2 and 3 act as supplementiary material. Because the resume was crafted to apply for a specific position, I adjusted it to highlight the skills they were looking for.

I do tend to agree with the 1 page for under 5 yrs, 2 for under 10 yrs and 3 pages for anything over that, but since I'm at 7, I get 2.5 right?


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## Dexman PE (Apr 5, 2010)

When editing your resume, how much do you change the text format (Arial, Times New Roman, bold, underline, 10pt vs 12pt, etc)?

On my resume, the section headers are bold + underline, sub-section headers are only bold, and the rest is just normal. The entire thing is 10pt Arial (except my name on the top).


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## Ble_PE (Apr 5, 2010)

What I've done is using bold 14 pt for my headings and 12 pt for my text. I'm using Times New Roman. I haven't finalized it yet and I'm trying to fit it onto 2 pages, so I might play with the margins a little. I've read that you shouldn't go smaller than 11 pt on your font, but it's really a personal preference.


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## mizzoueng (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm using 12 font and 14 Font like Ble PE said, it tends to work out okay. At times though it makes it look like you are "filling in" which I know isn't true and my young eyes can handle the smaller font with ease.


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