# Qualifying Experience to obtain PE



## Civangineer

I was wondering what exactly is considered as "qualifying experience" when applying for the PE licensure in the state of VA? Would working at a construction firm that has a PE at their home office be considered as "qualifying experiece" even though you don't work under his direct supervision? Any clarification would be greatly appreciated.


----------



## Peele1

Read the NCEES and the DPOR guidelines and laws. They are specific and yet flexible.

e.g.

18 VAC 10-20-240

§ 54.1-400.

"Working at a construction firm". Doesn't mean much. What responsibilities and demonstrated use of engineering computation and problem-solving skills is there?


----------



## Jaylaw_PE

reading plans is considered an engineering activity afaik. but you do need to be working "under" a licensed PE


----------



## Civangineer

Peele1 - I actually think they're pretty vague but maybe that's just me. Well working as a field project engineering working with a project manager and site superintendent on a regular basis dealing with subcontractors, owner and the A/E. Processing submittals and what not. No design work whatsoever and not much room for problem solving as the engineer of records usually handle any situation that would come up pertaining to the overall project.

Jaylaw_PE - There's only so much you can do with reading plans. I'm pretty comfortable with reading and interpreting plans but I'm sure it won't help me much with passing my PE exam. I should say I've dealt with reading plans while working with project managers and superintendents who were not PE's. Now would it be any different if there is a PE somewhere within the firm that I could perhaps come into contact with once in a while and just chit chat as coworkers and not as my mentor/someone I should be shadowing?

I'm asking because I want to start raking up my four years of experience so that I can sit for the PE exam. So it's either working as a field project engineer at a construction firm or pursue working at a materials testing firm (there are a few project managers with their PE's and the department head also has his PE). My understanding is that at the end of the day what matters is that you pass the exam. The work that you perform to gain the four years of experience is not as important. I wanted to ask those who have already gone through the process and obtained their PE, preferably in VA, to see what kind of "sign off" is required. 

Thanks


----------



## adamgram

I am also applying to take the PE in VA and had a similar question.

The application specifically asks for the number of months the experience should be considered "Sub-Professional (non-qualifying)" vs "Professional". This leaves he door open for you to admit that when you were new you weren't really doing engineering.

It refers you to the state law for more info on what is considered "qualifying." The law also uses the words "qualifying experience" in the section stating how much experience is needed. I know of other states that make a distinction between "real engineering" and "entry level work" *within* the required number of years. New Jersey's law says "X number of years, 2 of which must be original design experience" (X depends on your education). So in New Jersey, I might say I spent 4 years drafting and helping out engineers with design details, and another 2 years designing stuff on my own. Am I reading this right that I do not want to make the distinction this way in Virginia?

In the first couple years of my career, I spent a lot of time working in CAD. Now, like plenty of licensed engineers that I know, I *still* spend a lot of time working in CAD. The point where I stopped being focusing on making it look pretty on the screen and where I started to be focused on how to make it work in the field is kind of a fine line. I want to make sure I draw it the right way on my application.

Also, for anyone else taking it in Virginia, are we really supposed to squeeze the whole description into that little box? It says that if you need more space to copy the form, but I feel like I need to submit a 4 page report.


----------



## PeonPE

I spent a lot of time working in construction as the Engineer-In-Charge, Office Engineer and Inspector. My State Agency that approved applicants to practice engineering is pretty fussy about what is "qualifying" experience. I know several engineers - myself included - who had to re-write the experience a few times to get it to "count." In a general sense, project administration and management does not count to them. People serving as technical folks in construction outfits (Office Person) or project Superintendents can find their experience - while critical to getting the job done timely and in budget - really needs a bit of finesse to get people who are academia / design minded to accept that what they do really hits the vein of what professional engineers really do. My opinion is that if you boil down all of what PEs really do - all your left with is their certification that the Standards (whatever they are) are being met. As a Construction Super who's responsibility is Quality Control (the customer is usually responsible for Quality Assurance) a big part of your job is proving to the customer that the product is being built in accordance with the Contract Documents.

With that being said I was fortunate in that I could supplement my construction time with 6 month stints in Highway Design, Structural Design, Bridge Inspection, Software Design, Training, QA/QC Support Roles and Planning. I finally got accepted to take my PE after I completed my first job as a lead designer for a major bridge rehabilitation which included the Proposal, Estimate, Design Calculations and ADP Drawings. SOME direct design experience is necessary. Personally, I think every engineer should spend time on both sides of the house: "Designin' Stuff" and "Buildin' Stuff" if they want to make the claim they truly know their business.

To your specific question on how to write up experience - I don't know about VAs forms but in NY you can include as many pages as you want. MS Word and Acrobat are your friends. I think my 8 year submission was over 30 pages - not counting signature, address and summary sheets. I had to modify the forms slightly to get it easy to follow and it was accepted. The board people I spoke to said they want lengthy and verbose. Don't embellish or lie obviously, but really map out all your duties. There is A LOT that goes into what a Resident Engineer or Superintendent does that is qualifying experience.

PM me if you want a sample write-up for us construction folks. I'll ask that you don't out-and-out plagiarize, but instead use it as a model or template for your own experiences. But in summary:

1) Say what "you" did, what "you" were responsible for

2) Even if you worked on a team, don't say "I assisted with"

3) Quote all Standards and References Used

4) Start with each project with a quick summary

4b) Break down each project to element specific operations you did - be detailed - saying "I Designed Bearings" isn't enough, every thing you needed to calculate from the AASHTO LRFD book - say it. Demonstrate you knew WHY you were calculating it, not just because you boss told you to do it.

5) Explain the challenges of your project - all of us have constraints placed on us - budget, keep existing elements, environmental, local, political, unforeseen field conditions

5b) How "you" approached the challenge and how you solved the problem / made it better

6) People often leave out testing - if you (or your sub) tested concrete, took cores, chained a deck, torqued bolts, took geotech fabric samples - say so. Say how the results impacted your design or actions in the field. Reference the Standards for the testing (ACI, ANSI, ASME, etc.)

7) Analysis on Anything - it doesn't have to be an intricate look at beam chamber - if you did a cost analysis on a Change Order for pay items and had to read some specs to see if there was a different / cheaper / better way to do it then say so. Interpreting Plans and Specifications is important. Value Engineering Change Proposals are a big part of construction.

Lastly, having the PE certify your work isn't essential but it goes a long way to not having your experience discounted. Also remember that your immediate supervisor signing off on your time sheet doesn't have to be the PE. As long as before the finished product going to the customer that you helped work on is reviewed by a licensed engineer - that is sufficient for that person to certify your competency. So if there is anyone in your firm who is a licensed professional (PE, LS, Landscape Architect, ARE) and they are Professional-of-Record for the project you worked on, it's best to try and talk that person into signing off on your work.

In retrospect, I found writing up my experience was more annoying than actually studying for the PE Exam. YMMV.


----------



## CivilConstruction

I worked for a general contractor in Texas and was accepted and just took the October 2012 exam. Look at the topics they test on the afternoon construction section - i hung this from my wall and tried to do things on that list during my time as a 'project engineer'. 

-*Equipment production rates*? Non-engineers guess from experience. Calculate how many/what size equipment you need and the amount of loose soil you will end up with.

-*Scheduling *- you calculated production rates to be able to build a schedule. A change order hits you...what is the impact on the balance of your schedule?

-*Safety/Hoisting - *some numb nuts is tied off to something. Will it hold him per OSHAs fall requirements? Calculate that bolt pull out.

I had one PE in company that I made a habit of visiting at least once a month to remind him I exist and am working towards application. I picked up the others on the job by ensuring i was the one communicating with them during field coordiation and design corrections/modifications.


----------



## PeonPE

Just wanted to follow-up on a few of the other posts - there is a difference between:

1) CAD - Computer Aided Drafting

and

2) CADD - Computer Aided Drafting and Design

The modern engineer doesn't sketch everything out on a napkin, creates spreadsheets to crunch the numbers and hands it off to the drafting technician to do it up. Instead the modern engineer creates a model in whatever software package dominates his industry (AutoDesk, Bentley, 3DS, etc.) and does additional calcs in science software, spreadsheets or what have you that the modeling software can't handle.

The drafting tool and the design tool are one. I have found that while you should indicate that you are using specific software tools (AutoCAD, Microstation, InRoads, SolidWorks, MathCAD, Excel, etc.) please note your skill level with the tool its not nearly as important as what you are doing with it. Remember that, this is not a resume to a prospective employer that is looking to make sure he doesn't need to invest years in training you on how to use a particular software suite. Instead you are gonna wanna demostrate these points in your experience:

1) Intenstive application of engineering principles to the practical solution of engineering problems

2) Knowledge of engineering mathematics, phyical and applied sciences, properties of materials, and fundamental principles of engineering design

3) Breadth of scope

4) Progressive development and maturation of engineering knowledge and judgement

5) Two years at least of engineering experience using US Codes and Practices

Now its possible you can't hit on all five of these every write up. But try your best to address as many of these as possible when you do write it up - this is what they want. You can be the greatest macro programmer for AutoCAD that ever lived - and its a great selling point to an employer, but it means precious little to these guys.

As far as designing Details versus being a lone designer versus being a lead designer - honestly I have found in my State it doesn't matter. Very few engineers I know work alone. Everyone is part of a team, lots of people check your work and you check theirs. Working as a team was taugh to me as a freshman in college man moons ago. Professors refused to even accept homework assignments unless someone else in our class signed off on it and checked it. These guys know you work on a team. But they want to know what *you* did specifically on the team.

All this said, this is why I know of very few people who graduated from school, pased their FE, worked exactly four calendar years and got accepted to the PE Exam. You really don't start doing more meaningful stuff immedately. Average age around here is probably mid-thirties by the time they actually have enough qualifying time in service to satisfy all the criterons above (especially 3 and 4). My opinion on the whole thing is, it takes about four years of spoon feeding a new college graduate to get an engineer that's worth something. Then its another four years with him or her working without the trainign wheels to get real confidence. I don't ever want to discourage anyone from having their experience rated by the licensing authority - but you need to have some practical expectations.


----------



## CivilConstruction

I even had an instance where a non-engineer inspector told me that a column was out of plumb and would have to be reworked. The engineer of record took the easy way out and issued the same direction. I busted out that steel code and calculated that for the length we were NOT out of tolerance. Construction Engineering FTW. Sorry about the font size in the last post...


----------

