# Changing Computer En.vs. to Pharm D( Pharmacist)



## RealUnReaL (May 2, 2009)

Hi guys,

I would like to share view of my point with you guys, and see what do you guys think about?

your advise will be important for me as a engineers or pre-engineers.

I am currently in computer engineering program. but last couple months ago, I decide to change my major to Pharm.D which is pharmacist.

I did a lot of research about both of these majors and unfortunately, Pharm D field looked like better from most of the ways.

I will be honest with you guys, I am changing my major because of financial things, like; computer engineers salary vs. to pharm D sallary.

I am sure ,I will love been an engineer but on the other hand, I just don't want to do something because of I love it, I want to be think straight.

according to my researches , a computer engineers are making 55k a year,right after from school. He needs to work like 2 years at least to get his experience and then change his job to get a nice salary around maybe 55k to 65k, after than ,he/she has to work hard his/her ass off to show up him/her self to his boss ir his supervisor, so he/she can get a raise. and also politics.I don't even want to get in to politics.

but according to my researches again , a pharm D will get 80k a year right after school. he/she doesnt really have to worry about job options. and he can go up to 150k a year. An engineer can go up to max (if it is not your company) 97k-100k around 50 years old.

so I maybe wrong about this post or my thoughts , thats why I want to share with you guys , so I can get ,what are you guys thinking about this?

Thank very much


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## benbo (May 2, 2009)

RealUnReaL said:


> Hi guys,I would like to share view of my point with you guys, and see what do you guys think about?
> 
> your advise will be important for me as a engineers or pre-engineers.


I would say if you don't have any real passion either way, go for the Pharm thing. You can always go back and get a computer engineering degree later. But if you really prefer engineering, and are *only* doing it for the money and job security, I'd stick with the engineering. Remember, it was only a few short years ago that computer people could make a fortune, and nobody knows what will happen in the medical arena in the next few years, with all the talk about universal healthcare. It will always be needed, but will it always pay? Who knows?


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## benbo (May 2, 2009)

RealUnReaL said:


> go up to 150k a year. An engineer can go up to max (if it is not your company) 97k-100k around 50 years old.


By the way, this depends on where you live. I make more than what you quote here in Cal, and I know a lot of people that do. Of course if you're talking a national average, this is probably true.


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## chaosiscash (May 2, 2009)

I'm with Benbo, do what you like. And like he said, money is very situation dependant. A good buddy of mine (we're the same age) is a PharmD in Charleston (which is a higher cost of living than where I live), and he makes about 10k a year more than I do. But he has about 80k in student loans (from the med school), and I have none. And while you might have less "office politics" as a pharmacist, you also get the wonderful job of dealing with the public for 50-60 hours a week. It completely depends on your specific situation and what you want to do.


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## maryannette (May 2, 2009)

I have another thought. I don't know many engineers who work nights and weekends, but I know a LOT of pharmacists who work nights and weekends.


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## MGX (May 2, 2009)

If you have no passion for it I would not go through the trouble of school to do it just for the salary.

I disagree in that I think you should do what you love to do whether it be a pharmacist, engineer or salesman. All whom I've met and considered successful in their careers love what they do so I took that to heart.

Even if engineering payed lousy (and it does depending on who you ask) I would still do it because I enjoy it and most days doesn't feel like 'work'. I also get the pride of knowing I designed something that people use whether they're aware of it or not.


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## RealUnReaL (May 2, 2009)

Thanks for your all advises and informations. I will really take these advises seriously.

I really am not against to engineering nor Pharmacy. I am just a guy who is try to make a best decision for his life. You know most of us has those moments.

if you guys don't mind I would like to bring up a posts who is going to pharmacy school right now. And just et you know please, I am not trying to prove anything in this community. I am just trying to put all the facts on the table.

One again I am not trying to prove that, your statement is wrong.

Here is his post ,I would like to share with you guys,

*04-20-2009, 10:51 PM*

solzont;

You're in luck! My undergrad degree was computer engineering and I worked at Intel for ~7 years. I'll be starting Pharmacy School this summer. Most importantly, you need to realize that computer engineering is not a professional degree. You'll have to work hard to leverage your projects, research, and academics to land a choice job. There's often 2-3 different interview sessions including a rigorous technical interview. I was compensated at about 60k without a graduate degree. Jobs at 80k+ will require a graduate education in CompE, masters minimum, PhD preferable if you intend on working in microarchitecture design or process engineering. The academic commitment is thus, not much different than that necessary to achieve a PharmD, and a bit cheaper to boot since your research can pay the way. The earning potential can be much higher considering your compensation package often includes stock options, discount stock purchases, and cash-based retirement accounts above and beyond your base pay. Some of the options are "protected" meaning their value doesn't drop below a floor level (aka recession-proof). That's the problem with salary statistics...they're only quoting BASE salaries for engineers and computer scientists, no stock, no cash retirement, no options. It's potentially much more, as mine was, above their base pay.

My colleagues and I have identified several downsides with CpE but don't think they're aren't any with pharmacy. As a CpE, you generally live in a cubicle at your computer, you may be on-call (manufacturing and design esp.), foreigners with your education are 1/2 to 1/3 the price of your salary (they don't have to be licensed here like Pharms do), you're job is vulnerable to economic turbulence, and CE is vital to the preservation of your career. Real CE...not what we have for pharmacy. I'm talking about learning new HDL programming languages, manufacturing techniques, and design principles...on your own. Large technology corporations like Intel have excellent internal training programs but there's no agency cracking a whip, it's your job. Of course, there's always management when you get tired of adding value to the company. Unlike the local hospitals which are flush with middle managers with little or no substantial contribution, Intel lays off middle managers in droves before they even consider one technician/engineer layoff.

Compensation is an important factor, but there are also others to consider. I was very successful at Intel, so maybe I'm not the average case. In my experience pharmacy isn't much, if any, of a pay raise if you're an accomplished CpE with an MS or PhD in the right company, I worked with several. If salary is the arbiter of your future career, how about being an MD? Nurse? Dentist? I have a strong interest in chemistry, esp. biochemistry; additionally, the personal reward I get from care-giving on a daily basis, interacting with the public, and the empowerment of knowing I can make a major difference in the quality of their lives is extremely motivating.

I'm curious how your grades are and how close you are to getting a degree in CpE? Have you done an internship or at least applied for one? Have you found a mentor to shadow or work with in CpE and Pharm? It sounds to me like your research is all 3rd hand and cash compensation based, my advice is to get out of the web and into the workplace. If you impress enough people you'll attract a good mentor to help you find out what it's really like. Good luck

Please take your time and read his post. And also her is an other post from a different Computer Engineer;

museabuse;

04-13-2009, 01:52 PM

Exact same credentials here. Graduated in '99 with computer engineering, worked for Intel ~3 years then to pharmacy school now I am a pharmacist(at least you made it to your sabbatical.... nice). because I went to a private pharmacy school I am in debt ALOT. If I stayed with Intel I would be much better off right now financially. Even though I am now making more base salary pay, you are right the benefits with Intel was far superior than pharmacy. From the time I left Intel I was able to start making money as a pharmacist within 5 years.

If you leave your engineering job making 60-70K base salary and go to a private pharmacy school, I think the break even point would be probably over 20 years. You have to take in account at least 4 years no salary while in pharmacy school and doing pre reqs. You also have to take in account loss salary from a full time job and also the 150000 dollars in debt from pharmacy school.

So if you are switching to pharmacy for the money then you better rethink your decision because it would be a long time before you see an ROI. I however am glad I made the switch. I hated being salary working 60+ hours and getting paid a salary based on 40. I hated sitting in a cubical. I hated being on call to fix software issues at 2am. I hated the red tape and butt kissing, corporate computer jobs are all about who you know and who you kiss up too. I hated all the pointless meetings that you have to attend. I hated that you could be the best programmer or worker but not get the best raise because you didn't make yourself known to random people who didn't know you but had inut into your raise. Think Office Space, that is what a computer job is like, for real.

I like the job I have, and as of right now there is job security, not like in the computer field where they will cut you loose to pay an Indian 1/8 the pay in a second. However things are changing and not sure if the job security is a for sure thing, have to see how things pan out in the next few years. All I can say is I am happier now with my job than I was and that is what counts even though I am in financially worse shape.

Anyways if you have any questions feel free to ask me.

and here is the same Engineer's answer;

solzont

04-13-2009, 04:52 PM

Thanks for your insight Muse, it's nice to see a fellow former Intel person on these boards. Thanks for backing me up on the salary, it's very real. I'd swear people think I'm lying when I start my "Why do you want to be a pharmacist" conversation without any reference to salary. You did touch on a couple things that I didn't include in my post. Specifically, the work hours and politics. Yes, I also worked about 54-60 hours per week, but I really enjoyed my job under good-great management so I was OK with it. You do need to make yourself visible to decision makers outside your department, productive skip level meetings and strong projects with a large multi-group scope that save/make lots of money are very important for long term success. If you're a pharm at a large hospital, you may find the same rules of politics apply as well...it's all the people, not the job per se.

Anytime you add 10's to 100's of people to an organization the juice (see Stephen Covey's book about trust) can start to flow like oil in winter. It takes good relationships among people to get it moving, but it can still be done with real work. Those who don't want to do the work lean hard on personality and ass-kissing to try and get around the work. The problem for most is navigating the politics and having the will/endurance to market yourself and your ideas to strangers repetitively. It's like applying to 50 different graduate schools all with different applications and essay nuances while doing your job. All the while your completing your assigned work, but that won't get you raises or promotions. Doing your job is not enough, you must go above and beyond. In fact, it's your own initiative-based brain children that do it. It goes something like this...work hard, master the elements of a problem/system, get idea, gather data, process data, gather more data, interpret data, bounce interpretation/project off peers and bosses, tweak implementation, repeat 10x. Oh wait, you new boss doesn't feel the project is "value added", your data is flawed, nobody cares, the strategic direction of the company has changed, or (the best) a jealous coworker is erecting barriers to your success (woot!).

Quartel is mostly right about the 40's-50's comment. As you get older, it's imperative you constantly keep up with technology so you can compete with the newest crop of talent or you'll be indirectly forced into management or less desirable position within the company. If you're a good primary engineer, you can still be viable into your 40's and 50's but, most likely will move into some type of project management or strategic role eventually. Many secondary or lower engineers eventually opt for the clock-in clock-out, minimum work does it, I'd like to spend more time with my family route.

Computer engineering and/or software is a tall challenge to say the least. When people see lazy pharmacists (yes, yes...they're not *all* lazy, but breakneck demand has dropped the standard significantly) making $100k+ for little work or getting arrested for drug theft at one pharmacy only to find a new job two days later at Walmart, it's tough to sell a demanding and unpredictable technology career. That being said, there's a lot of folks at Intel and Microsoft on the corporate welfare program too.

One of our favorite "anger management" websites, as employees, was this one.

I'm glad to hear you're happier Muse, that's really what we're all after eh? Our little slice

I'll live out of a van if I have to lol....tomato (ketchup) soup anyone?

Here is in the same community an other engineer;

loveyoursmile

04-20-2009, 03:12 PM

Hi Guys,

I am another fellow of integrated electronics company. I got my EECS BS in top engineering school and landed a design job at the company ~3yrs ago. Yes, my total compensation now is more than just the base salary. And the same thing here with politics. I hate it. I am considering a career change to pharmacist now. solzont and museabuse, you guy make me feel much better now that i am not alone.

if you take a look at and read their statements ,maybe they all have some rights ,according to them.

if you like to read the all post about these conversation , you can go on this website

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=618470

as I said before , All of your advise are really important and I am thinking about your advise very seriously.

Thanks very much for taking your time and giving me a hand.


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## maryannette (May 2, 2009)

It is your decision, so your opinion counts more than any other. My grandfather taught me a very good way to make a decision was to get a lot of opinions from people you trust, then make YOUR decision. Good luck.


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## Dexman1349 (May 2, 2009)

I personally HATE doing customer service. Pharmacy (like most of the health-care industry) is customer service. Yeah, it's not like working at Old Navy, but the concept is still there. I understand that we as engineers serve our clients, but those are long term. They are true relationships. You work with individuals. I would kill myself if I had to repeat "Hello, how are you doing? What can I do for you today?" every 5 minutes to a new face for 50-60 hours per week; days, nights, and weekends. Another thing to consider is that a Pharm-D's require a master's degree = more student loans which means your extra salary goes towards getting that paid off for at least the first 10 years.

I know what the life is like because my mother is a pharm-d. She's been doing it for over 20 years now, and I have seen more "bad" days than good ones. While most of the time she's in auto-pilot and works through the monotony, all it takes is 1 or 2 customers to absolutely distroy her day and mood. Granted, she works retail pharmacy (worked for Walmart, King Soopers, and a pair of local drug stores), and a hospital setting is considerably different. unfortunately hospital pharmacies are harder to get jobs with because more and more experienced pharm-d's are bailing on the retail side since the boomers are beginning to retire and are a complete pain in the ass. Think about it: could you stand dealing with your parents and their friends' medical demands on a full time basis?

From a job security point: Engineers are being hit hard with the government cuts (at least those of us relying on public projects), but it's hard to guage what will happen with the medical field as the push continues towards universal healthcare and as the Baby-Boomers begin to retire.

From a pay-scale point: Pharm-D's make more than engineers here in Colorado. but they also have higher requirements towards getting your license (master's degree minimum), keeping it (continuing ed, which isn't required for engineers here in CO), and paying off schooling (masters degrees are not cheap). I know the requirements for engineers are getting stronger (the bachelor's +30 rule), but it's not the same.

Just my 0.02, but if I were you, I'd go with my gut and do what I want. Only you know what the local scene is like towards both industries.


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## benbo (May 2, 2009)

Like everyone else says, you need to do what you like. As for me, I only know of two jobs that pharmacists do - either working in a hospital, or working in a drug store or other pharmacy. I'm sure there may be others but I am not familiar with them. I don't know what it is like working in a hospital pharmacy, but just from what I have seen waiting in line for medicine at my local pharmacy, I could never do it. It seems like a lot of pill counting and calling doctors and insurance companies, sort of like working at a fast food restaurant or filling orders in a store. And way too much contact with annoyed bellyaching customers. I know a lot of this gets delegated to pharmacy techs, but at my pharmacy the pharmacist is there, and often has to get into the battles.

Now hospital work, or other pharmacy work may be completely different. I love my current job, and have actually enjoyed all my engineering jobs so I would never change.

Update Note: I wrote this before Dexman's post went up, but from reading his post it looks like my intuition may have been correct. It is not for me, that's for sure.


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## geofs_PE (May 2, 2009)

I have 2 sons and the advice I give them is something I read somewhere some time ago, "Find something you love to do and you'll be great at it." I also think that if you're good enough at whatever you do, the $ will come. And, life is too short to work at something for 30-40 years that you don't thoroughly enjoy. From what I see of most pharmacist jobs, they count pills or supervise others who count pills. I don't think I would find that very rewarding after a while. There are probably other avenues in pharmacy like research, etc. that one could get involved in, but I think you'd be wise to base your decision more on what you enjoy and less on the financial aspects. Just my $.02...


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## RealUnReaL (May 2, 2009)

Thanks very much for sharing your ideas and advises to me,

I guess , I won't be sleeping for couple of nights for thinking all about these.

But it is good that , I can get advise from experienced engineers like you people.

This is going to be harder than all of my science classes.

Respectfuly,thanks very much to all of you.


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## RealUnReaL (May 15, 2009)

Still considering pharmD vs Computer engineer


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## JoeBoone82 (May 15, 2009)

RealUnReaL said:


> Still considering pharmD vs Computer engineer


What made you choose between these 2 fields? I would not think that they are even the least bit similar, but I'm in Structural Engr, so I could be wrong. It seems that they would be so different though, that it would be an easy decision.


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## RealUnReaL (May 15, 2009)

JoeBoone82 said:


> What made you choose between these 2 fields? I would not think that they are even the least bit similar, but I'm in Structural Engr, so I could be wrong. It seems that they would be so different though, that it would be an easy decision.


Well, I am thinking for PharmD. But honestly I am not hundred percent sure. Do you also want to give me some advise or your thoughts , that would be helpful.

Thanks


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## JoeBoone82 (May 16, 2009)

RealUnReaL said:


> Well, I am thinking for PharmD. But honestly I am not hundred percent sure. Do you also want to give me some advise or your thoughts , that would be helpful.Thanks


There probably are not many people who have worked in both fields, so it is tough for someone to say why one is better than the other. The enjoyment in any field depends on the person, what you like, and what you make of it. Go with the one that you think you would be the most happy with (not the best money), and go for it. Try going to speak to someone in person who works in those fields, or try job shadowing, etc to maybe help your decision. Good luck.

Wikipedia:

"The fundamental role of pharmacists is to distribute drugs that have been prescribed by a medical practitioner to patients. Additionally, pharmacists advise patients and healthcare providers on the selection, dosages, interactions, and side effects of medications. Pharmacists monitor the health and progress of patients to ensure the safe and effective use of medication."

Computer Engineering is a discipline that combines both elements, Electrical Engineering and Computer Science. Computer engineers usually have training in electrical engineering, software design and hardware-software integration instead of only software engineering or electrical engineering. Computer engineers are involved in many aspects of computing, from the design of individual microprocessors, personal computers, and supercomputers, to circuit design. This field of engineering not only focuses on how computer systems themselves work, but also how they integrate into the larger picture.

Usual tasks involving computer engineers include writing software and firmware for embedded microcontrollers, designing VLSI chips, designing analog sensors, designing mixed signal circuit boards, and designing operating systems.[citation needed] Computer engineers are also suited for robotics research,[citation needed] which relies heavily on using digital systems to control and monitor electrical systems like motors, communications, and sensors."


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## RealUnReaL (May 16, 2009)

Thanks for your respond. I will do just you said. and I am going to go the one I most in loved.

that is going to be hard decision.


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