# California Engineers Exempt from overtime?



## lomenop (Apr 24, 2013)

I'm not sure how to read the below. If you're unlicensed and employed as an engineer (assuming you have your BS), do you fall under 3(b) ? Or is the intent of 3(b) for those that have on-the-job training and perhaps have attended a few specialized training courses/seminars/have special training certificates?

Are you an unlicensed engineer in California (or prior to getting your PE) that gets paid salary (no overtime)? I guess I'm trying to figure out if unlicensed engineers in California are improperly classified as exempt employees that are not entitled to overtime.

_3) Professional Exemption. A person employed in a professional capacity means any employee who meets all of the following_

_requirements:_

_(a) Who is licensed or certified by the State of California and is primarily engaged in the practice of one of the following_

_recognized professions: law, medicine, dentistry, optometry, architecture, engineering, teaching, or accounting; or_

_(b) Who is primarily engaged in an occupation commonly recognized as a learned or artistic profession. For the purposes of_

_this subsection, “learned or artistic profession” means an employee who is primarily engaged in the performance of:_

_(i) Work requiring knowledge of an advanced type in a field of science or learning customarily acquired by a prolonged_

_course of specialized intellectual instruction and study, as distinguished from a general academic education and from an apprenticeship,_

_and from training in the performance of routine mental, manual, or physical processes, or work that is an essential part of or necessarily_

_incident to any of the above work; or_

_(ii) Work that is original and creative in character in a recognized field of artistic endeavor (as opposed to work which can_

_be produced by a person endowed with general manual or intellectual ability and training), and the result of which depends primarily on the_

_invention, imagination, or talent of the employee or work that is an essential part of or necessarily incident to any of the above work; and_

_(iii) Whose work is predominantly intellectual and varied in character (as opposed to routine mental, manual, mechanical,_

_or physical work) and is of such character that the output produced or the result accomplished cannot be standardized in relation to a given_

_period of time._

_Reference: http://www.dir.ca.gov/Iwc/IWCArticle4.pdf_


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## Judowolf PE (Apr 24, 2013)

shouldn't this be an employer/employee issue, not a government interaction issue??


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## solomonb (Apr 24, 2013)

I need to know more context for this paragraph before I am able to render an observation. I am NOT a lawyer-- however, have had some legal training. What is the context for this post?


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## lomenop (Apr 24, 2013)

Judowolf PE said:


> shouldn't this be an employer/employee issue, not a government interaction issue??


Labor laws are there to protect some from being taken advantage of.



solomonb said:


> I need to know more context for this paragraph before I am able to render an observation. I am NOT a lawyer-- however, have had some legal training. What is the context for this post?


The link to the entire notice is at the bottom of the paragraph. It's basically establishing a criteria for who is and is not exempt from the labor laws in the following sections of the notice (one of which deals with overtime pay).



ngnrd - PE said:


> I am not a California Labor Attorney, nor do I play one on TV. Heck, I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But, as I read it, unlicensed EIT's should not be classified as overtime exempt employees. (They should get paid OT.)
> I would base this on the premise that bachelor's degree in engineering (like other bachelor's degrees) would be considered 'general academic education' and not 'a prolonged course of specialized intellectual instruction and study'. I would think that a position that required a master's degree would qualify under the latter criterion.
> 
> Of course, they didn't ask me what I thought when they were assigning definitions, either. So... there's that.
> ...


I wish It were more clearly defined. I've tried google, mainly to see if there were any publizied trials that may have hinted to some judge's interpretation, but no luck.

To answer your question, yes you can be employed as an engineer without a license or EIT. This occurs in government positions and for my observations, your upward mobility is limited until you obtain a PE (unless its a specialized branch of engineering).

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I guess I was looking to see what others in CA have experienced. I'm in the private sector and have always been salary (no overtime), regardless of licensure status.


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