# Easiest State to pass PE EXam in?



## member_deleted_77

What is the best and easiest state to pass the PE exam in.... I've had it with my state board and am considering applying in another state to sit for the exam. I've heard Nevada and Arkansas are easy. Is there any truth to this?????????


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## navyasw02

moesha711 said:


> What is the best and easiest state to pass the PE exam in.... I've had it with my state board and am considering applying in another state to sit for the exam. I've heard Nevada and Arkansas are easy. Is there any truth to this?????????


I believe the exam is the same regardless of your state. The licensing requirements vary (ie work experience, references, etc) depending on state.


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## wilheldp_PE

navyasw02 said:


> I believe the exam is the same regardless of your state. The licensing requirements vary (ie work experience, references, etc) depending on state.


Correct. The only way to know the requirements for each state to sit for the exam is to either ask, or peruse their website. Once you are approved to sit, you will be taking the same exam as everybody else.


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## bigray76

I know several people from NJ that have opted to take the PE in DE or CT because they aren't generally as critical on experience, but I really think it is more a matter of how you present your experience than one state or another being easier to get approved in... just my $.02


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## raisinbran

Military friendly state Georgia! It is.

They give you extra 5 points to your score. If you are eligible for veteran's preference points.

Join the military and have yourself ship to war zone for at least 90 days.

http://sos.georgia.gov/plb/faqs/09%20faqs.htm#Q. How does the NCEES


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## willsee

raisinbran said:


> Military friendly state Georgia! It is.
> They give you extra 5 points to your score. If you are eligible for veteran's preference points.
> 
> Join the military and have yourself ship to war zone for at least 90 days.
> 
> http://sos.georgia.gov/plb/faqs/09%20faqs.htm#Q. How does the NCEES


So if you get a 65 + 5 in Georgia I guess that means you can't apply for license in other states since you wouldn't have passed otherwise?


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## Road Guy

correct. in general I think its a bad idea because 8 years down the road you may have a need to move to another state and then your basically screwed and would have to take the test and pass it...'

I'm in Georgia, and a veteran but I didnt check the veteran status because I didnt want to have to worry about it later... also not everyone gets the full 5 points, I have known some people who qualify for only 1 point, etc they assign them based on active duty time during war time / zone.. (I think...)

but the actual exam is the same state to state..


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## Bman

Personally, I think I would rather study a little harder than spend no less than 90 days in a war zone.....


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## navyasw02

Bman said:


> Personally, I think I would rather study a little harder than spend no less than 90 days in a war zone.....


The way its worded is you just have to serve 90+ days during a time of war, not in a war zone. That's everyone who's been in since 2001, even if you haven't deployed.


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## Bman

navyasw02 said:


> Bman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Personally, I think I would rather study a little harder than spend no less than 90 days in a war zone.....
> 
> 
> 
> The way its worded is you just have to serve 90+ days during a time of war, not in a war zone. That's everyone who's been in since 2001, even if you haven't deployed.
Click to expand...

Still pretty sure I'd rather study a few extra hours.... If you passed the test only becuase of the extra points, is it noted on your record? Would other states know that you didn't technically pass the exam? Since the exam is pass/fail in most states and no score is provided, I would think that it would just show that you passed...


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## Paul S

Bman said:


> Still pretty sure I'd rather study a few extra hours.... If you passed the test only becuase of the extra points, is it noted on your record? Would other states know that you didn't technically pass the exam? Since the exam is pass/fail in most states and no score is provided, I would think that it would just show that you passed...


I believe it does show up if you try for license in other states, which will do more harm than good to get the 5 points. I think getting 5 points for serving the country is simply stupid for this exam. Why not reward the vets a different way, maybe reduced fees to take the exam, or reduced renewal fees, or even waive those fees?


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## New2WR

I think some states easier than others in terms of their passing score which depends on the demand of the state for registered Engineers vs. the number of examinees every year but anyways this difference is very small 1-2% So I second the opinion if you study little harder you will pass the exam with any state.


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## wilheldp_PE

I just applied for a license by comity in West Virginia, and they have a form that your home state board has to fill out. It has an entry on there for raw exam score and any adjustments made to the score. I think that is where the Georgia military adjustment would show up, and might keep you from getting the license in another state.


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## Mike in Gastonia

Georgy said:


> I think some states easier than others in terms of their passing score which depends on the demand of the state for registered Engineers vs. the number of examinees every year but anyways this difference is very small 1-2% So I second the opinion if you study little harder you will pass the exam with any state.


That's a pretty bold statement. Do you have any proof that this is done?

Here's what ncees says on their website:



> NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way.


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## navyasw02

Mike in Gastonia said:


> Georgy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some states easier than others in terms of their passing score which depends on the demand of the state for registered Engineers vs. the number of examinees every year but anyways this difference is very small 1-2% So I second the opinion if you study little harder you will pass the exam with any state.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a pretty bold statement. Do you have any proof that this is done?
> 
> Here's what ncees says on their website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Do states determine the cut score or NCEES?

I agree with the poster a few above who recommended reducing the fees instead. As active duty myself, I dont think it's fair to lower the standard that is set for the exam just because of military service. However, I'd love to have the impact on my wallet be a little less for a license that I dont need for my military career. I added it all up and so far I'm in for about $730 between exam fees, study materials, and a hotel for the night before.


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## civilized_naah

moesha711 said:


> What is the best and easiest state to pass the PE exam in.... I've had it with my state board and am considering applying in another state to sit for the exam. I've heard Nevada and Arkansas are easy. Is there any truth to this?????????


I would tend to say "Calm Mental State" Now, what highway you take to get there, don't ask me! I haven't been there is years ...


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## benbo

> Do states determine the cut score or NCEES?


This is how I understand it:

Technically, the states determine the cut score, but since the state boards are all affiliated in one way or the other witrh NCEES, and need to arrange for comity, they all accept the NCEES cot score (with the exception of Georgia and maybe a handful of other places that give extra credit to veterans).

That's what I've read every time I read anything authoritative on this.

Some states require less experince - in CA you can take it with an MS and one year experience.


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## OaklandPE

benbo said:


> Do states determine the cut score or NCEES?
> 
> 
> 
> This is how I understand it:
> 
> Technically, the states determine the cut score, but since the state boards are all affiliated in one way or the other witrh NCEES, and need to arrange for comity, they all accept the NCEES cot score (with the exception of Georgia and maybe a handful of other places that give extra credit to veterans).
> 
> That's what I've read every time I read anything authoritative on this.
> 
> Some states require less experince - in CA you can take it with an MS and one year experience.
Click to expand...


But you also have to take 2 other CA special exams (seismic and surveying), and cannot get your PE license until you pass all 3.


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## benbo

OaklandPE said:


> But you also have to take 2 other CA special exams (seismic and surveying), and cannot get your PE license until you pass all 3.


Yes, that's true. If you want a Civil license. For other disciplines, just one exam


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## afewgood

Paul S said:


> Bman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still pretty sure I'd rather study a few extra hours.... If you passed the test only becuase of the extra points, is it noted on your record? Would other states know that you didn't technically pass the exam? Since the exam is pass/fail in most states and no score is provided, I would think that it would just show that you passed...
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it does show up if you try for license in other states, which will do more harm than good to get the 5 points. I think getting 5 points for serving the country is simply stupid for this exam. Why not reward the vets a different way, maybe reduced fees to take the exam, or reduced renewal fees, or even waive those fees?
Click to expand...

Maybe just give them the "PE" title without the right to stamp engineering work.

for lack of professional knowledge and given right circumstances, those vet. can kill as many people as they could in the battlefield.


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## navyasw02

afewgood said:


> Paul S said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Still pretty sure I'd rather study a few extra hours.... If you passed the test only becuase of the extra points, is it noted on your record? Would other states know that you didn't technically pass the exam? Since the exam is pass/fail in most states and no score is provided, I would think that it would just show that you passed...
> 
> 
> 
> I believe it does show up if you try for license in other states, which will do more harm than good to get the 5 points. I think getting 5 points for serving the country is simply stupid for this exam. Why not reward the vets a different way, maybe reduced fees to take the exam, or reduced renewal fees, or even waive those fees?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe just give them the "PE" title without the right to stamp engineering work.
> 
> for lack of professional knowledge and given right circumstances, those vet. can kill as many people as they could in the battlefield.
Click to expand...

I think that's a bit harsh of a statement. Your score on a multiple choice test is not directly proportional to your competence as an engineer. Your PE license on your wall doesn't say you got 95% of the test right vs. barely above the cut score and doesn't mean you're that much less likely to make an error.


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## HerrKaLeun

so in Georgia they basically say that veterans are not as smart and need a 5 score head start? :withstupid:

the test is about testing if someone is fit to make important decisions and designs. There is no rewarding of anything else than knowledge and ability...

what about nurses, cops, teachers... that all serve their country? Or engineers in general, where would the country be without engineers? Why not give everyone a 5 score advantage? 

Preferential treatment is the worst form of discrimination... it also doesn't help the veteran. Since every veteran who is a PE won't get the same respect because everyone thinks he wouldn't have passed without the 5 scores.


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## IlPadrino

Oh, not again!

http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=10968

and the much longer and in-depth version: http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=6950


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## Dark Knight

HerrKaLeun said:


> so in Georgia they basically say that veterans are not as smart and need a 5 score head start? :withstupid:
> the test is about testing if someone is fit to make important decisions and designs. There is no rewarding of anything else than knowledge and ability...
> 
> what about nurses, cops, teachers... that all serve their country? Or engineers in general, where would the country be without engineers? Why not give everyone a 5 score advantage?
> 
> Preferential treatment is the worst form of discrimination... it also doesn't help the veteran. Since every veteran who is a PE won't get the same respect because everyone thinks he wouldn't have passed without the 5 scores.


I hope you are kidding. I cannot believe somebody trully think in that way. While I do not agree with the 5 point buffer it is also true that if someone can be good enough to take a weapon and defend our country, he/she must be good enough to receive some benefits out of it. If that benefit is a 5 points head start in the PE test so be it. Who am I to go against that? Who are you?

About the test, IMHO, it is just a measure of mental endurance and there is a lot of luck involved. I would like to know how many of us, that already passed, will be willing to give a 100% guarantee that they will pass it again if they have to take it again.

More than that, How many of the Gods at the NCEES Mountain would pass the test if they have to take it. It is very easy when you have the answers...is not it?

I have met good engineers that were not able to pass the PE and morons who were able to pass it. Five points do not make a difference.


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## navyasw02

Dark Knight said:


> I hope you are kidding. I cannot believe somebody trully think in that way. While I do not agree with the 5 point buffer it is also true that if someone can be good enough to take a weapon and defend our country, he/she must be good enough to receive some benefits out of it. If that benefit is a 5 points head start in the PE test so be it. Who am I to go against that? Who are you?


I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.


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## IlPadrino

navyasw02 said:


> I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.


You can disagree all you want, but the fact remains: not everyone is treated the same. Take a look at the NCEES webiste http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Special_accommo...ommodations.php.


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## navyasw02

IlPadrino said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.
> 
> 
> 
> You can disagree all you want, but the fact remains: not everyone is treated the same. Take a look at the http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Special_accommo...ommodations.php website.
Click to expand...

That's not the same as getting blanket bonus points for being in subgroup X like with the GA military deal.


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## HerrKaLeun

Dark Knight said:


> I hope you are kidding. I cannot believe somebody trully think in that way. While I do not agree with the 5 point buffer it is also true that if someone can be good enough to take a weapon and defend our country, he/she must be good enough to receive some benefits out of it. If that benefit is a 5 points head start in the PE test so be it. Who am I to go against that? Who are you?


I'm not saying they shouldn't get their benefits. They should get all benefits they are entitled to and were promised when they signed up. The same way other people were promised a pension, health care for working etc. Be it soldiers, firemen or anyone else.

What I'm against, is giving people an advantage for something that is unrelated to the test or the profession. And that advantage wasn't part of the benefit deal anyone was promised when signing up for service, nor was it the reason to sign up.


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## IlPadrino

navyasw02 said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.
> 
> 
> 
> You can disagree all you want, but the fact remains: not everyone is treated the same. Take a look at the http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Special_accommo...ommodations.php website.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not the same as getting blanket bonus points for being in subgroup X like with the GA military deal.
Click to expand...

It is "preferential treatment to subgroups" and it is "lowering a standard" - those are your specific words. How can it be OK to have a different standard for a learning disability but not OK for other groups?


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## navyasw02

IlPadrino said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.
> 
> 
> 
> You can disagree all you want, but the fact remains: not everyone is treated the same. Take a look at the http://www.ncees.org/Exams/Special_accommo...ommodations.php website.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That's not the same as getting blanket bonus points for being in subgroup X like with the GA military deal.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It is "preferential treatment to subgroups" and it is "lowering a standard" - those are your specific words. How can it be OK to have a different standard for a learning disability but not OK for other groups?
Click to expand...

Giving away points is getting something free without it being earned. Having different testing conditions still requires people to earn their passing score. That's the difference.


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## IlPadrino

navyasw02 said:


> Giving away points is getting something free without it being earned. Having different testing conditions still requires people to earn their passing score. That's the difference.


OK... now we're getting somewhere. This has nothing to do with "earning [a] passing score". Each and every state in the union is responsible for their own licensing of professionals. There is *no* national interest in licensing PEs (at least not yet) and so each and every state is free to decide how they want to manage the process. PEs are little different than Massage Therapists in many states.

Each and every state uses some combination of education, experience, and examination for licensing PEs. Georgia has chosen to let some experience offset some examination. If you consider this "lowering the standard" and you live in Georgia, write your legislature and let them know.

Have you read the other thread? Do you think there's a big difference between a 65 tester and a 70 tester?


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## navyasw02

IlPadrino said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Giving away points is getting something free without it being earned. Having different testing conditions still requires people to earn their passing score. That's the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> OK... now we're getting somewhere. This has nothing to do with "earning [a] passing score". Each and every state in the union is responsible for their own licensing of professionals. There is *no* national interest in licensing PEs (at least not yet) and so each and every state is free to decide how they want to manage the process. PEs are little different than Massage Therapists in many states.
> 
> Each and every state uses some combination of education, experience, and examination for licensing PEs. Georgia has chosen to let some experience offset some examination. If you consider this "lowering the standard" and you live in Georgia, write your legislature and let them know.
> 
> Have you read the other thread? Do you think there's a big difference between a 65 tester and a 70 tester?
Click to expand...


No, I dont think there's much difference between a 65 tester and a 70, but if there wasn't a difference, why is the 70 the minimum? The Olympic committee doesn't take 5 seconds off the Jamaican bobsled team's time. Is there a difference between a team that comes in 32nd vs the team that comes in 31st? Neither is going to medal. Now if taking 5 seconds off the time means that they'll get on the podium, then that's a problem. In this case, we're letting guys stand on the podium that wouldn't necessarily be there.


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## IlPadrino

navyasw02 said:


> No, I dont think there's much difference between a 65 tester and a 70, but if there wasn't a difference, why is the 70 the minimum? The Olympic committee doesn't take 5 seconds off the Jamaican bobsled team's time. Is there a difference between a team that comes in 32nd vs the team that comes in 31st? Neither is going to medal. Now if taking 5 seconds off the time means that they'll get on the podium, then that's a problem. In this case, we're letting guys stand on the podium that wouldn't necessarily be there.


Can we stick with just one analogy?!?

There's not just one "Olympic committee" deciding how to treat all the professionals in the world. There are 53 "Olympic Committees" in the U.S. alone that exercise their authority over their jurisdiction (the 50 states, DC, PR, and Guam... if I haven't missed one or more) - and they're free to choose how they "qualify their athletes". NCEES is *not* the Olympic committee.

NCEES provides a service that just about everyone follows unchanged. Georgia is an exception. The cut score of 70 is deemed the border of "minimally competent" by NCEES. There has to be *some* number but there's also got be be a fairly large 95% confidence interval!

Bottom line (for me): If you accept that someone who takes the exam five times before passing with a 70 is "competent enough" to be a registered engineer, then you should accept that someone who fails with a 65% is probably "good enough". And remember, no state looks at just the exam on its own - they all use a combination of education, experience, and exam.


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## Santiagj

navyasw02 said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are kidding. I cannot believe somebody trully think in that way. While I do not agree with the 5 point buffer it is also true that if someone can be good enough to take a weapon and defend our country, he/she must be good enough to receive some benefits out of it. If that benefit is a 5 points head start in the PE test so be it. Who am I to go against that? Who are you?
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.
Click to expand...

I don't think the conjoined twin should be allowed to sit for the exam. Art History majors should not be allowed within 100 yards from a testing facility.


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## navyasw02

IlPadrino said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> No, I dont think there's much difference between a 65 tester and a 70, but if there wasn't a difference, why is the 70 the minimum? The Olympic committee doesn't take 5 seconds off the Jamaican bobsled team's time. Is there a difference between a team that comes in 32nd vs the team that comes in 31st? Neither is going to medal. Now if taking 5 seconds off the time means that they'll get on the podium, then that's a problem. In this case, we're letting guys stand on the podium that wouldn't necessarily be there.
> 
> 
> 
> Can we stick with just one analogy?!?
> 
> There's not just one "Olympic committee" deciding how to treat all the professionals in the world. There are 53 "Olympic Committees" in the U.S. alone that exercise their authority over their jurisdiction (the 50 states, DC, PR, and Guam... if I haven't missed one or more) - and they're free to choose how they "qualify their athletes". NCEES is *not* the Olympic committee.
> 
> NCEES provides a service that just about everyone follows unchanged. Georgia is an exception. The cut score of 70 is deemed the border of "minimally competent" by NCEES. There has to be *some* number but there's also got be be a fairly large 95% confidence interval!
> 
> Bottom line (for me): If you accept that someone who takes the exam five times before passing with a 70 is "competent enough" to be a registered engineer, then you should accept that someone who fails with a 65% is probably "good enough". And remember, no state looks at just the exam on its own - they all use a combination of education, experience, and exam.
Click to expand...

Whatever - I dont really need a whole lecture correcting the flaws of an analogy that I made to illustrate a point.

My bottom line is this - If you set a minimum on a "standardized" exam, then stick to it. People aren't declared competent because they have a PE license, they're declared liable.


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## Dark Knight

navyasw02 said:


> My bottom line is this - If you set a minimum on a "standardized" exam, then stick to it. People aren't declared competent because they have a PE license, they're declared liable.


:fencing:

That is the real bottom line.


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## IlPadrino

navyasw02 said:


> Whatever - I dont really need a whole lecture correcting the flaws of an analogy that I made to illustrate a point.
> My bottom line is this - If you set a minimum on a "standardized" exam, then stick to it. People aren't declared competent because they have a PE license, they're declared liable.


I'm starting to wonder if you're serious in trying to make yourself understood.

But I'm sure of this: People aren't declared liable because they have a PE license.


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## navyasw02

IlPadrino said:


> But I'm sure of this: People aren't declared liable because they have a PE license.


Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Just because you ARE a PE doesn't mean someone's going to fire off lawsuits to random PEs. If you want to keep bickering over semantics, then maybe you should be on lawyerboards.com.

Of course people are declared liable with a PE. The whole point of licensing in general is to establish industry regulations and qualification standards, and enforce those regulations on those who are licensed and practice their respective field. Having a PE license allows you to be liable in court if the design that has your stamp on it fails. It also allows consumers to take action and report you to the state if you violate the regulations of the industry. It has NOTHING to do with whether you're GOOD at your job, it just means you CAN do your job and you've met the requirements to hold a license, to practice your field, and that you are legally responsible if you screw up.


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## Paul S

I think the answer to the original question is: Alaska. Go there and take the exam, it is way easy up there.


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## IlPadrino

navyasw02 said:


> Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?


I give up... you've got it all figured out and you see this as an argument. I've no interest in arguing; I was just trying to help you see another perspective.


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## navyasw02

IlPadrino said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
> 
> 
> 
> I give up... you've got it all figured out and you see this as an argument. I've no interest in arguing; I was just trying to help you see another perspective.
Click to expand...

I appreciate your perspective and discussion, but when you start criticizing the semantics of a metaphor it comes across like you're trying to argue pointlessly.


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## Slugger926

navyasw02 said:


> Mike in Gastonia said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Georgy said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think some states easier than others in terms of their passing score which depends on the demand of the state for registered Engineers vs. the number of examinees every year but anyways this difference is very small 1-2% So I second the opinion if you study little harder you will pass the exam with any state.
> 
> 
> 
> That's a pretty bold statement. Do you have any proof that this is done?
> 
> Here's what ncees says on their website:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> *Do states determine the cut score or NCEES? *
> 
> I agree with the poster a few above who recommended reducing the fees instead. As active duty myself, I dont think it's fair to lower the standard that is set for the exam just because of military service. However, I'd love to have the impact on my wallet be a little less for a license that I dont need for my military career. I added it all up and so far I'm in for about $730 between exam fees, study materials, and a hotel for the night before.
Click to expand...

NCEES does it statistically along with help of a Cut Score Panel consisting of PE's in that field supplied by the appropriate engineering society.


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## ironman

raisinbran said:


> Military friendly state Georgia! It is.
> They give you extra 5 points to your score. If you are eligible for veteran's preference points.
> 
> Join the military and have yourself ship to war zone for at least 90 days.
> 
> http://sos.georgia.gov/plb/faqs/09%20faqs.htm#Q. How does the NCEES


Wow that has to be the dumbest thing I have ever heard, why should military experience excuse you from not knowing your stuff if your going to call yourself a professional engineer. I could see having the fee waived for veterans or something like that, but if you want to be a PE you ougth to know your shit and a 65 is not knowing your shit. Texas had some deal like this where at one point you could get a PE based soley on experience and no exam but you can not transfer your PE to any other state, well maybe to Georgia lol.


----------



## ironman

Dark Knight said:


> HerrKaLeun said:
> 
> 
> 
> so in Georgia they basically say that veterans are not as smart and need a 5 score head start? :withstupid:
> the test is about testing if someone is fit to make important decisions and designs. There is no rewarding of anything else than knowledge and ability...
> 
> what about nurses, cops, teachers... that all serve their country? Or engineers in general, where would the country be without engineers? Why not give everyone a 5 score advantage?
> 
> Preferential treatment is the worst form of discrimination... it also doesn't help the veteran. Since every veteran who is a PE won't get the same respect because everyone thinks he wouldn't have passed without the 5 scores.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are kidding. I cannot believe somebody trully think in that way. While I do not agree with the 5 point buffer it is also true that if someone can be good enough to take a weapon and defend our country, he/she must be good enough to receive some benefits out of it. If that benefit is a 5 points head start in the PE test so be it. Who am I to go against that? Who are you?
> 
> About the test, IMHO, it is just a measure of mental endurance and there is a lot of luck involved. I would like to know how many of us, that already passed, will be willing to give a 100% guarantee that they will pass it again if they have to take it again.
> 
> More than that, How many of the Gods at the NCEES Mountain would pass the test if they have to take it. It is very easy when you have the answers...is not it?
> 
> I have met good engineers that were not able to pass the PE and morons who were able to pass it. Five points do not make a difference.
Click to expand...

Thats because your definition of good and moron is subjective and likely based 99.9% on personality issues not on technical competence. The PE is a purely objective measurement and thats why its used. I have known "good" engineers that can get the day to day engineering stuff done but when it comes to complex design they fold, I would call someone like that a glorified designer not an engineer. Just becasue engineers have to do mundane things to put food on the table does not mean that is the esense of our profession. There is alot of balony in our profession (as there is in any profession) but just becasue you are good at the bolony which is likely even 80-90% of someones time does not make you a good engineer. I have my doubts about some on this site considering how emotional they get over things and yet claim to be engineers or technical people yet act like a woman on her period.


----------



## ironman

navyasw02 said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Giving away points is getting something free without it being earned. Having different testing conditions still requires people to earn their passing score. That's the difference.
> 
> 
> 
> OK... now we're getting somewhere. This has nothing to do with "earning [a] passing score". Each and every state in the union is responsible for their own licensing of professionals. There is *no* national interest in licensing PEs (at least not yet) and so each and every state is free to decide how they want to manage the process. PEs are little different than Massage Therapists in many states.
> 
> Each and every state uses some combination of education, experience, and examination for licensing PEs. Georgia has chosen to let some experience offset some examination. If you consider this "lowering the standard" and you live in Georgia, write your legislature and let them know.
> 
> Have you read the other thread? Do you think there's a big difference between a 65 tester and a 70 tester?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> No, I dont think there's much difference between a 65 tester and a 70, but if there wasn't a difference, why is the 70 the minimum? The Olympic committee doesn't take 5 seconds off the Jamaican bobsled team's time. Is there a difference between a team that comes in 32nd vs the team that comes in 31st? Neither is going to medal. Now if taking 5 seconds off the time means that they'll get on the podium, then that's a problem. In this case, we're letting guys stand on the podium that wouldn't necessarily be there.
Click to expand...

If thats the case why dont they graduate engineers with a 1.0 GPA after all its only 1 point between 1 and 2 LOL. Seriously your handle suggests your in the military so you should know about standards and testing.


----------



## ironman

Paul S said:


> I think the answer to the original question is: Alaska. Go there and take the exam, it is way easy up there.


Alaska is actually one of the harder states to get your PE in. Your experience has to be in the specific disipline you are testing for and you have to take an arctic engineering class regardless of which test you sit for. They probably ought to have the seismic exams here for civils as well but we dont have the infrastructure of cali.


----------



## IlPadrino

ironman said:


> If thats the case why dont they graduate engineers with a 1.0 GPA after all its only 1 point between 1 and 2 LOL.


I hope you were drinking when you wrote this (LOL!) because if you think 65 is to 70 as 1.0 is to 2.0 then you need to retake some 6th Grade math.


----------



## benbo

IlPadrino said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If thats the case why dont they graduate engineers with a 1.0 GPA after all its only 1 point between 1 and 2 LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you were drinking when you wrote this (LOL!) because if you think 65 is to 70 as 1.0 is to 2.0 then you need to retake some 6th Grade math.
Click to expand...

Maybe they teach this in his "Advanced Engineering Math" course.


----------



## navyasw02

benbo said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If thats the case why dont they graduate engineers with a 1.0 GPA after all its only 1 point between 1 and 2 LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you were drinking when you wrote this (LOL!) because if you think 65 is to 70 as 1.0 is to 2.0 then you need to retake some 6th Grade math.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Maybe they teach this in his "Advanced Engineering Math" course.
Click to expand...

I'm wondering if he even went to school with his functional math skills, poor spelling, and awful grammar.


----------



## benbo

navyasw02 said:


> I'm wondering if he even went to school with his functional math skills, poor spelling, and awful grammar.


Shockingly, he passed the PE exam. A fact which in itself makes me question the validiity of the test.

Seriously, rppearso (aka ironhead) may very well be good at math or chemical engineering. His grammar and spelling on a message board, atrocious as they are, really don't matter much as long as he can improve it for professional interactions. But some of his questionable ideas, and his obsession with "fatty pay" get old very quickly.


----------



## Paul S

ironman said:


> Alaska is actually one of the harder states to get your PE in. Your experience has to be in the specific disipline you are testing for and you have to take an arctic engineering class regardless of which test you sit for. They probably ought to have the seismic exams here for civils as well but we dont have the infrastructure of cali.


Please tell us about the arctic engineering class you took.


----------



## ironman

benbo said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if he even went to school with his functional math skills, poor spelling, and awful grammar.
> 
> 
> 
> Shockingly, he passed the PE exam. A fact which in itself makes me question the validiity of the test.
> 
> Seriously, rppearso (aka ironhead) may very well be good at math or chemical engineering. His grammar and spelling on a message board, atrocious as they are, really don't matter much as long as he can improve it for professional interactions. But some of his questionable ideas, and his obsession with "fatty pay" get old very quickly.
Click to expand...

I have not once brought up fatty pay in this thread or even in a while, because your right going on and on about one topic is boring. seriously if you cant get at least a 70 on the PE you have no buisness having the title, considering they throw out questions to modify scores in the first place. And actually its not to far off from saying a 1.0 is the same thing as a 2.0 because a 65 is functionally a D so if 65 is the same as a 70 then they should pass everyone thought with a D average (we could make it a 1.5 if that makes you feel better). So the cut score on the PE is no different than on a university exam, a C average. This is similar to the chineese and indians they import on H1 visas with "engineering" degrees who dont know what the hell they are doing because their degree programs are a sham. If you dont have hard ridgid standards then pretty soon you dont know who is really an engineer and who is a poser that can talk louder than others but is functionally retarded (people with degrees from questionable universities or 65's on PE exams).


----------



## ironman

benbo said:


> navyasw02 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm wondering if he even went to school with his functional math skills, poor spelling, and awful grammar.
> 
> 
> 
> Shockingly, he passed the PE exam. *A fact which in itself makes me question the validiity of the test.*
> 
> Seriously, rppearso (aka ironhead) may very well be good at math or chemical engineering. His grammar and spelling on a message board, atrocious as they are, really don't matter much as long as he can improve it for professional interactions. But some of his questionable ideas, and his obsession with "fatty pay" get old very quickly.
Click to expand...

Maybe you should bring this up to the board, if you think the exam is a piece of cake that anyone can pass and that you think it should be more rigorus. I think they will disagree with you since the first time fail rate is non trivial. You will probably need to talk to someone after I get my masters in electrical as well, since if I get a masters then it must have been a piece of cake LOL.

Just because you disagree with someone politically does not have any bering on their engineering skills (because this is not about grammer, this is about my opinions clashing with others) becasue only tool bags derail discussions to micro analyze spelling and grammer. I know people that correct other peoples speach and no one will converse with them because its anti social behavior.


----------



## ironman

Paul S said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Alaska is actually one of the harder states to get your PE in. Your experience has to be in the specific disipline you are testing for and you have to take an arctic engineering class regardless of which test you sit for. They probably ought to have the seismic exams here for civils as well but we dont have the infrastructure of cali.
> 
> 
> 
> Please tell us about the arctic engineering class you took.
Click to expand...

Send me a PM.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ironman said:


> This is similar to the chineese and indians they import on H1 visas with "engineering" degrees who dont know what the hell they are doing because their degree programs are a sham. If you dont have hard ridgid standards then pretty soon you dont know who is really an engineer and who is a poser that can talk louder than others but is functionally retarded (people with degrees from questionable universities or 65's on PE exams).


Generalizing people on a visa as not being educated enough is pretty offending. India and China have some very good schools rivaling the top US schools. Obviously they also have bad schools. But the US also has many more questionable schools (i.e. University of Phoenix) that give out worthless degrees to anyone. But we wouldn't say all US engineers are bad because of that.

Among all the OECD countries the US doesn't have best average education system and is dropping even further. However, some of the best schools are in the US.

Many of the engineers, that come on a visa that you despise so much, attend graduate school in the US and get their MS and PhD degrees from the top US schools. So their fundamental education cannot have been that bad.


----------



## benbo

ironman said:


> Just because you disagree with someone politically does not have any bering on their engineering skills (because this is not about grammer, this is about my opinions clashing with others) becasue only tool bags derail discussions to micro analyze spelling and grammer.


I have no idea if I agree with you politically or not because I don't bother to read the rambling blather you post. But if you think anybody has to "micro analyze" your posts to see that they contain about the worst grammar and spelling anywhere on this site (or probably most any other site on the web) you have an amazing lack of self awareness. It is almost painful to read.

Also, it is not your political point of view that many find offensive, but your positions on moral matters. You know what we're talking about rppearso.


----------



## ironman

HerrKaLeun said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> This is similar to the chineese and indians they import on H1 visas with "engineering" degrees who dont know what the hell they are doing because their degree programs are a sham. If you dont have hard ridgid standards then pretty soon you dont know who is really an engineer and who is a poser that can talk louder than others but is functionally retarded (people with degrees from questionable universities or 65's on PE exams).
> 
> 
> 
> Generalizing people on a visa as not being educated enough is pretty offending. India and China have some very good schools rivaling the top US schools. Obviously they also have bad schools. But the US also has many more questionable schools (i.e. University of Phoenix) that give out worthless degrees to anyone. But we wouldn't say all US engineers are bad because of that.
> 
> Among all the OECD countries the US doesn't have best average education system and is dropping even further. However, some of the best schools are in the US.
> 
> Many of the engineers, that come on a visa that you despise so much, attend graduate school in the US and get their MS and PhD degrees from the top US schools. So their fundamental education cannot have been that bad.
Click to expand...

I have worked with people who have over seas degrees and PhDs from the US and when it came down to core thermo design work they were not much help, I would think a PhD would be busting out PDE's to solve equations but thats not what was happening. As far as Indian and Chineese schools it is offensive but its the truth, China has no good schools I have heard of that rival top notch US schools and their academic credibility as a nation is weak (heck they were asking companies to turn over proprietary designs and technology as part of doing buisenss in china becasue they are too inept to do anything orginal themselves), India does a little better but still no where on par with the top notch US schools. I do have to say there are some indians who know what they are doing (I have never worked with them lol) but per capita they are non existant and the chineese have none (the ones that are smart come to the US and get US degrees). I agree the US is going down the toilet as far as quality individuals and engineers etc but thats becasue I believe the bill rate is getting so marginal that these fields cant attract the best and brightest becasue of the reasons I mentioned above of which H1 visa workers is part of the problem. What top notch US kid wants to compete with an indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box who is willing to work for 10-20$/hr? Why not use that talent to go work for goldman schachs. University of phoenix is kind of a red herring in my opinion.

And its not an ethnic issue, I had a VERY intellegent chineese decendant professor that taught P chem in college but guess what his degrees were from the US, so no problems. I have a good friend I work with from Tunisia, again degrees from the US. Europe has good schools too but india and china we need to close the doors tight and calk around them, let them sink or swim on their own merit, if for no other reason than I dont think we should have to compete with them as it drives our own quality of life down. IF they are so great let them develop their own industry with out western help and technology (of course we have already held their hand through much of their industrial revolution giving them a huge leg up compared to what we had during ours).

The political correctness is going to sink this nation, call a spade a spade, the chineese are worthless as well as the indians and are the greatest national security risk to our nation, like a parasite.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

@ ironman: if the Chinese are so worthless... how come that the mighty US need to borrow money from them just to get by on a day to day base?

Here in WI I don't see any H1 visa engineers (if they are other ethnicity they are born here, or have a green card). I'm myself German on greencard and I don't work for less money than everybody else (still too little, though. The mediocre designs I see are from US born white people that call themselves "designer"and don't have an engineering degree, or non in the field they work in (i.e. architectural engineering degree is doing mechanical engineering design work).

You are correct that engineering rates are too low and Wall Street jobs pay more and take brains away. But that is because our industry now is based on financing schemes and not on actually doing anything productive. But that is our own fault, not the Chinese. Getting their best people into our country is beneficial. If a company hires mediocre people, that is their own fault (whether US or Chinese). i believe the H1 visa is more for interns.. not much damage done with an intern who doesn't know much. that is normal. when the company let's that $ 10-$ 20 guy do higher-paid work - that is their problem and the company is responsible for the outcome.

China and India will kick our butt... it will be less painful if we adapt and don't seal the doors.


----------



## ironman

HerrKaLeun said:


> @ ironman: if the Chinese are so worthless... how come that the mighty US need to borrow money from them just to get by on a day to day base?
> Here in WI I don't see any H1 visa engineers (if they are other ethnicity they are born here, or have a green card). I'm myself German on greencard and I don't work for less money than everybody else (still too little, though. The mediocre designs I see are from US born white people that call themselves "designer"and don't have an engineering degree, or non in the field they work in (i.e. architectural engineering degree is doing mechanical engineering design work).
> 
> You are correct that engineering rates are too low and Wall Street jobs pay more and take brains away. But that is because our industry now is based on financing schemes and not on actually doing anything productive. But that is our own fault, not the Chinese. Getting their best people into our country is beneficial. If a company hires mediocre people, that is their own fault (whether US or Chinese). i believe the H1 visa is more for interns.. not much damage done with an intern who doesn't know much. that is normal. when the company let's that $ 10-$ 20 guy do higher-paid work - that is their problem and the company is responsible for the outcome.
> 
> China and India will kick our butt... it will be less painful if we adapt and don't seal the doors.


I do agree with you that companies hire "designers" who have had a 2 week auto cad course and thoes can be H1 or US citizens so thats an issue all its own that I have put comments in for an AELS open forum. So I agree there are significant domestic issues to engineering as well. However, china would not be where they are without the know how from american or western countries technology, they simply are a sub par nation that relys on their cheap labor to entice greedy CEO's. If we told them screw you we are not paying the debt and are pulling ALL western technology and resources they would be totally crippled because they are incompetent. We are borrowing money because all our manufacturing base is going over seas so we no longer have a GDP, alot of US jobs are service based. If we keep up this same political suicide they will stomp us with our own technology and know how. There was a day when you could be put in prison for doing what some companies are doing now with building things that use high technology in a hostile nation, it was called treason and was a breach of national security. And as I said before India is a little better but not much better, at least we are not in debt to them nor do we build factorys there to exploit slave labor.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ironman said:


> If we told them screw you we are not paying the debt and are pulling ALL western technology and resources they would be totally crippled because they are incompetent. We are borrowing money because all our manufacturing base is going over seas so we no longer have a GDP, alot of US jobs are service based. If we keep up this same political suicide they will stomp us with our own technology and know how. There was a day when you could be put in prison for doing what some companies are doing now with building things that use high technology in a hostile nation, it was called treason and was a breach of national security. And as I said before India is a little better but not much better, at least we are not in debt to them nor do we build factorys there to exploit slave labor.


OMG, not even nations like North Korea or Cuba would consider to just not pay their debt.. besides the fact that at the moment we don't pay off our debt, no sane person or country will ever ever lend us money again. and money borrowing is what we do all day.

And unless you can convince every other industrialized country to join your technology boycott (what technology doe the US actually have that Western Europe, Japan etc. don't have something better?). and I'm sure those countries have some technology we need. Software etc, mainly is developed in India nowadays.

for everyone believing in protectionism I'd recommend this book before you make the mistake of bringing the US even more behind other nations.


----------



## wilheldp_PE

Herr, you are barking up the wrong tree by trying to use logic, proof, and especially books to prove your point to ironman. There's a reason we all just call him names and critique his grammar. He is truly a delusional idiot, and no amount of proof to the contrary of whatever nonsense he is promoting at the time will convince him to view things differently. I understand that he is being very bigoted at the moment which offends you as a legal immigrant, and on behalf of the sane population of this forum, I apologize. But believe me when I tell you that your well-formed arguments are falling on ironman's deaf ears.


----------



## ironman

HerrKaLeun said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If we told them screw you we are not paying the debt and are pulling ALL western technology and resources they would be totally crippled because they are incompetent. We are borrowing money because all our manufacturing base is going over seas so we no longer have a GDP, alot of US jobs are service based. If we keep up this same political suicide they will stomp us with our own technology and know how. There was a day when you could be put in prison for doing what some companies are doing now with building things that use high technology in a hostile nation, it was called treason and was a breach of national security. And as I said before India is a little better but not much better, at least we are not in debt to them nor do we build factorys there to exploit slave labor.
> 
> 
> 
> OMG, not even nations like North Korea or Cuba would consider to just not pay their debt.. besides the fact that at the moment we don't pay off our debt, no sane person or country will ever ever lend us money again. and money borrowing is what we do all day.
> 
> And unless you can convince every other industrialized country to join your technology boycott (what technology doe the US actually have that Western Europe, Japan etc. don't have something better?). and I'm sure those countries have some technology we need. Software etc, mainly is developed in India nowadays.
> 
> for everyone believing in protectionism I'd recommend this book before you make the mistake of bringing the US even more behind other nations.
Click to expand...

So how would you recommend that we defend our national interests to keep us from going down the toilet into a 2nd world nation quality of living? I suppose you are right that to much technology and know how has already been given away so we dont really have much else to offer as a nation other than trying to compete with slave labor. Thats what made this nation great is we protected our inginutiy and know how so we were not reduced slaves.


----------



## ironman

wilheldp_PE said:


> Herr, you are barking up the wrong tree by trying to use logic, proof, and especially books to prove your point to ironman. There's a reason we all just call him names and critique his grammar. He is truly a delusional idiot, and no amount of proof to the contrary of whatever nonsense he is promoting at the time will convince him to view things differently. I understand that he is being very bigoted at the moment which offends you as a legal immigrant, and on behalf of the sane population of this forum, I apologize. But believe me when I tell you that your well-formed arguments are falling on ironman's deaf ears.


I will pay attention when something starts working. Right now all you are doing is blathering as our nation circles the drain, I guess thats why we are circling the drain though is because no one cares, people like me just become a laughing stock as we are sold out by politicians and CEO's.

I have no problem with full blown legal immigrants with US educations, I have a problem with H1 visa workers. You must be a liberal since you seem to like to use the race card. Its not about race its about survival, I guess since a few of you on here can still get decent counter offers to force a raise you could care less but your world is shrinking. When thoes counter offers start to dry up dont come crying.


----------



## wilheldp_PE

ironman said:


> I will pay attention when something starts working. Right now all you are doing is blathering as our nation circles the drain, I guess thats why we are circling the drain though is because no one cares, people like me just become a laughing stock as we are sold out by politicians and CEO's.
> I have no problem with full blown legal immigrants with US educations, I have a problem with H1 visa workers. You must be a liberal since you seem to like to use the race card. Its not about race its about survival, I guess since a few of you on here can still get decent counter offers to force a raise you could care less but your world is shrinking. When thoes counter offers start to dry up dont come crying.


When the hell did I use the race card?

If you knew anything about me, which you don't, you would know that I have been predicting the end of the American Empire for quite a while now. But our demise is not going to come because immigrants, either legal or illegal, are taking our jobs. It's because our government spends about a billion dollars a day more than they take in tax dollars.

You seem to think that if you say "fatty money", "slave labor", or "third world country" enough times, we are all going to awaken to the fact that you are a genius. But your body of work reminds us all that you are still a delusional idiot.


----------



## ironman

wilheldp_PE said:


> Herr, you are barking up the wrong tree by trying to use logic, proof, and especially books to prove your point to ironman. There's a reason we all just call him names and critique his grammar. He is truly a delusional idiot, and no amount of proof to the contrary of whatever nonsense he is promoting at the time will convince him to view things differently. I understand that *he is being very bigoted *at the moment which offends you as a legal immigrant, and on behalf of the sane population of this forum, I apologize. But believe me when I tell you that your well-formed arguments are falling on ironman's deaf ears.


Here is the race card, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with visa status and where your BS degree came from.


----------



## ironman

wilheldp_PE said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I will pay attention when something starts working. Right now all you are doing is blathering as our nation circles the drain, I guess thats why we are circling the drain though is because no one cares, people like me just become a laughing stock as we are sold out by politicians and CEO's.
> I have no problem with full blown legal immigrants with US educations, I have a problem with H1 visa workers. You must be a liberal since you seem to like to use the race card. Its not about race its about survival, I guess since a few of you on here can still get decent counter offers to force a raise you could care less but your world is shrinking. When thoes counter offers start to dry up dont come crying.
> 
> 
> 
> When the hell did I use the race card?
> 
> If you knew anything about me, which you don't, you would know that I have been predicting the end of the American Empire for quite a while now. But our demise is not going to come because immigrants, either legal or illegal, are taking our jobs. It's because our government spends about a billion dollars a day more than they take in tax dollars.
> 
> You seem to think that if you say "fatty money", "slave labor", or "third world country" enough times, we are all going to awaken to the fact that you are a genius. But your body of work reminds us all that you are still a delusional idiot.
Click to expand...

You are correct about the spending, and the spending should have been reined in during boom times. Its to late to rein in that spending now because a vast percentage of the population is relying on unemployment beniftis, social programs or some other sort of tax break/incentive. If the gov pulled the rug out now without good paying jobs for people to fall back onto, you would see roiting and total social break down.

I agree that our debt and spending is a major threat to national security but to believe that NAFTA and out/in sourcing has no effect on our current crisis is dilusional. You cant collect taxes from a population that has no jobs or has a job but their pay is marginal. You cant tax people that dont make squat (which is roughly 90% of the population), most of the wealth is held in the upper 1 or so % and thats another non starter.

I would love for you to point out where I am a dilusional idiot becuase it may help me sleep better at night, knowing that my ideas were dilusional and that all will be well and that im over reacting. I would love to be proven wrong about all my political assertations because that means everything is hunky dorry and there is no cause for alarm.


----------



## wilheldp_PE

ironman said:


> Here is the race card, it has nothing to do with race, it has everything to do with visa status and where your BS degree came from.


*bigot*: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.

If I was pulling the race card, I would have called you a racist. You are just a generally intolerant idiot, which makes you a bigot. There's a difference. There...I've done my part to expand your vocabulary today. There are many ways in which you can misspell the word bigot as well. Enjoy.


----------



## wilheldp_PE

ironman said:


> You are correct about the spending, and the spending should have been reined in during boom times. Its to late to rein in that spending now because a vast percentage of the population is relying on unemployment beniftis, social programs or some other sort of tax break/incentive. If the gov pulled the rug out now without good paying jobs for people to fall back onto, you would see roiting and total social break down.
> I agree that our debt and spending is a major threat to national security but to believe that NAFTA and out/in sourcing has no effect on our current crisis is dilusional. You cant collect taxes from a population that has no jobs or has a job but their pay is marginal. You cant tax people that dont make squat (which is roughly 90% of the population), most of the wealth is held in the upper 1 or so % and thats another non starter.
> 
> I would love for you to point out where I am a dilusional idiot becuase it may help me sleep better at night, knowing that my ideas were dilusional and that all will be well and that im over reacting. I would love to be proven wrong about all my political assertations because that means everything is hunky dorry and there is no cause for alarm.


I know arguing with you does me about as much good as slamming my dick in a car door, but dammit, it's just fun.

For starters, China, India, and European nations are not part of NAFTA. You really need to organize your thoughts before you start arguing. Are you bitching about Mexicans taking low wage jobs from Americans, or are you bitching about legal immigrants taking high skill jobs based on H1 Visas?

Next, your delusions come from the fact that you believe that the flood of immigrants taking high skill jobs in America is some sort of conspiracy to put us all out of work. The fact of the matter is that there is demand for engineers, and American schools are not meeting that demand. If American companies wanted to save money on engineering talent, they would outsource to India-based firms (which some of them do). They certainly wouldn't want to pay the same Indians higher wages, in addition to fees to keep their H1 visas current, to get the same talent that they could get by outsourcing.

As for your obsession with wages, that's where your real delusion lies. Your entitlement philosophy has convinced you that you should command a six figure salary. From what I have gathered, some of your co-workers apparently worked during some sort of boom time in your industry in which they made "fatty money". Now, you think that you should get that salary. Booms occur in certain industries in certain locations (such as the tech boom in Silicon Valley), and if you are lucky enough to have the right skills at the right time in the right location, you can make "fatty money". That certainly doesn't mean that people with the right skills at the wrong place at the wrong time deserve to make those salaries. This is the part that you don't ever seem to grasp, no matter how many ways it is explained to you. Hence, you are a delusional idiot.


----------



## ironman

wilheldp_PE said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> You are correct about the spending, and the spending should have been reined in during boom times. Its to late to rein in that spending now because a vast percentage of the population is relying on unemployment beniftis, social programs or some other sort of tax break/incentive. If the gov pulled the rug out now without good paying jobs for people to fall back onto, you would see roiting and total social break down.
> I agree that our debt and spending is a major threat to national security but to believe that NAFTA and out/in sourcing has no effect on our current crisis is dilusional. You cant collect taxes from a population that has no jobs or has a job but their pay is marginal. You cant tax people that dont make squat (which is roughly 90% of the population), most of the wealth is held in the upper 1 or so % and thats another non starter.
> 
> I would love for you to point out where I am a dilusional idiot becuase it may help me sleep better at night, knowing that my ideas were dilusional and that all will be well and that im over reacting. I would love to be proven wrong about all my political assertations because that means everything is hunky dorry and there is no cause for alarm.
> 
> 
> 
> I know arguing with you does me about as much good as slamming my dick in a car door, but dammit, it's just fun.
> 
> For starters, China, India, and European nations are not part of NAFTA. You really need to organize your thoughts before you start arguing. Are you bitching about Mexicans taking low wage jobs from Americans, or are you bitching about legal immigrants taking high skill jobs based on H1 Visas?
> 
> Next, your delusions come from the fact that you believe that the flood of immigrants taking high skill jobs in America is some sort of conspiracy to put us all out of work. The fact of the matter is that there is demand for engineers, and American schools are not meeting that demand. If American companies wanted to save money on engineering talent, they would outsource to India-based firms (which some of them do). They certainly wouldn't want to pay the same Indians higher wages, in addition to fees to keep their H1 visas current, to get the same talent that they could get by outsourcing.
> 
> As for your obsession with wages, that's where your real delusion lies. Your entitlement philosophy has convinced you that you should command a six figure salary. From what I have gathered, some of your co-workers apparently worked during some sort of boom time in your industry in which they made "fatty money". Now, you think that you should get that salary. Booms occur in certain industries in certain locations (such as the tech boom in Silicon Valley), and if you are lucky enough to have the right skills at the right time in the right location, you can make "fatty money". That certainly doesn't mean that people with the right skills at the wrong place at the wrong time deserve to make those salaries. This is the part that you don't ever seem to grasp, no matter how many ways it is explained to you. Hence, you are a delusional idiot.
Click to expand...

I guess I have come to grasp it, it just sucks is all. Hopefully there is a boom time that I can benifit from sometime in my life while I have the health to enjoy it, if not then thats just life, your born, you do the best you can and you die. It creates some issues with my fiance and I sometimes because she sees people around us that are/were in the same job field as me making WAY more money but I cant seem to make that rate. I try to explain that it was through a series of fortunate events that these friends are where they are. I missed the last mini boom by the skin of my teeth because I was still in the 0-5 year range trying to get my PE, now that I am in the 6 year range with my PE the economy is in the shitter, but I never got to money up my savings acount so it is very apparent in my standard of living vs thoes around me (even including thoes with less experience than me because they are given hand outs from parents who lived during earlier boom times and profited from them.

I guess I want to have as little barriers in place to facilitate the next boom that I can actually profit from and I dont see a flood of H1 visa workers helping that situation any, it all boils down to supply and demand and if companies have the whole world to pull from the odds of seeing another boom are slim. I only have to deal with this shit for another 40-50 years so I guess thats not that bad lol.

Why do you think im going to try to build my own hangar with scrap metal and a hand concrete mixer lol. I am even thinking about building my own acrobatic plane to cut down expenses (we will see how long it takes me to save 70k for a pitts S2C/B).


----------



## Santiagj

Seems like you are about the same age as I am. I missed the boom too. Graduated in 2005 with my BSCE. However, I do feel lucky. New graduates right now can't find a job to save their lives. When I graduated I had several job offers which made it easier. Imagine if we had graduated in 08, 09 or even this year? Most just continue on to obtain their master's. I had mine paid for by my employer which is great. One thing to note that alot of people dont realize is that student loans do not get cleared through bankrupcy. They will hound you your whole life. Its a double edged sword now.

I don't think their will be a boom for a long time. Maybe in the energy sector? The US population will have to learn how to live with less.


----------



## navyasw02

So is this all a big whine that you missed out on what our parents had? Maybe you dont realize it, but there hasn't been some magical glorious time in quite some time. There's been recession after recession since the 80's and it just goes to show you that you're not entitled to shit in this life, you have to go earn it. If you're so bitter about not having shit, get a better job and quit bitching about how everybody else in the world done you wrong. Yes, there are jobs out there, go get one. Move out of Alaska, there's a world outside of Palinopolis.


----------



## benbo

> Move out of Alaska, there's a world outside of Palinopolis.


Ironhead may live in Alaska, but his point of view is at least equally reminiscent of the TV ads Barbara Boxer is running out here in my state. The nasty, money-grubbing corporation makes it impossible for us to find work. Balderdash. I've never in my life worked with an HB-1 visa holder, and I worked several years for a silicon valley company. I know they exist, but they are no problem for qualified, educated American engineers.


----------



## jmbeck

Okay, so if this clown is still around, what exactly did T.McKeon do?

Think about it.


----------



## roadwreck

jmbeck said:


> Okay, so if this clown is still around, what exactly did T.McKeon do?


you don't get banned for having and expressing differing opinions.


----------



## Santiagj

This thread is awesome. "Move out of Alaska, there's a world outside of Palinopolis" LOL thats one sweet quote. Benbo said balderdash!

This year I saw 2 H1B job postings hung up next to the water cooler. I don't think there is a requirement to post them. I think someone in the organization was pissed and hung it up so everyone would know. Both positions were for an engineer II or III doing System Protection and Control with a salary range of 60-86k depending on experience. In my organization the minimum requirements for an eng II is 3 years exp or Masters + 1 year exp. For an eng III it is 3 years exp + Masters or 5 years exp. I know both postions were open for a while.


----------



## Chucktown PE

I've worked with two guys in our company in the past 8 years that were foreign. They both had green cards, one was from Colombia and did his undergrad there and got a Master's degree in the US, the other was from Kenya and got a Bachelor's degree in the US. They were both extremely hard workers/bright/intelligent and I was fortunate to be able to work with them. What impressed me about them was that they knew they had one chance to make a living in the US and they persevered and achieved. That is quite contrary to quite a few people that I went to school with, who farted around knowing that if they failed out of school they could come back a year later and live off of mommy and daddy for a few years. Like it or not, IMHO foreign workers are often more motivated and work much harder than their US counterparts. It seems that ironman is resentful of that.


----------



## benbo

> Like it or not, IMHO foreign workers are often more motivated and work much harder than their US counterparts.


I don't know if you can generalize about this. I've worked with some lazy foreign born and educated engineers, and some hard working ones.

What I do know is that this thread is full of employed engineers. And this website is full of engineers getting job offers. Where I work, the utilities are constantly grabbing up our engineers, making it hard for us to keep them. Native born engineers.

From what he writes, ironhead is not doing all that bad, except in his own metallic brain. He wants an easy path to fatty money. That just isn't happening - visas or no visas.


----------



## ironman

benbo said:


> Like it or not, IMHO foreign workers are often more motivated and work much harder than their US counterparts.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if you can generalize about this. I've worked with some lazy foreign born and educated engineers, and some hard working ones.
> 
> What I do know is that this thread is full of employed engineers. And this website is full of engineers getting job offers. Where I work, the utilities are constantly grabbing up our engineers, making it hard for us to keep them. Native born engineers.
> 
> From what he writes, ironhead is not doing all that bad, except in his own metallic brain. He wants an easy path to fatty money. That just isn't happening - visas or no visas.
Click to expand...

Never said I wanted an easy path, I hardly call a BS and a PE working on an MS in a different disipline "easy", it would just be nice if "fatty money" were even avalible. As the Navy guy so eliquently and with so much couth (rolls eyes which is why im not military any more lol) put it is we are all going to have to work harder and live on less, thats because the gov and CEO's are selling us out. The whole point of a first world nation is so that you can work hard and live a good life, not so you can work hard to live like a slave, that would be 2nd or 3rd world.

Maybe some of you live to work but I work to live. I see alot of the live to work mentality on this site and other places. I never advocated lazyness I just think we are all being shafted. I do agree though that I dont think the boom times are comming back and we need to start teaching our kids to be worked like dogs for marginal compensation because thats the direction we are heading and we ourselves need to start adjusting our life styles and rethinking core values (like college educations get you somewhere). I paid off my student loan debt and my only debt is my condo which I am getting ready to sell just in case. However student loans and education dont make sense anymore becuase the cost of education, time and energy is not really worth the pay off. Once the incentives to work hard are gone your society denigrates and you fall as a nation, I wonder what the freshmen enrollment for engineering looks like this fall, I know I am taking E&amp;M and there are like 8 people in my class. I know people who are lazy and I was pushing the whole BS degree thing for years and now I am only making marginally more than they are so I cant even prove that it was worth it other than the fact that I sit in a chair and they sit in a car.


----------



## ironman

navyasw02 said:


> So is this all a big whine that you missed out on what our parents had? Maybe you dont realize it, but there hasn't been some magical glorious time in quite some time. There's been recession after recession since the 80's and it just goes to show you that you're not entitled to shit in this life, you have to go earn it. If you're so bitter about not having shit, get a better job and quit bitching about how everybody else in the world done you wrong. Yes, there are jobs out there, go get one. Move out of Alaska, there's a world outside of Palinopolis.


What exactly are you fighting to defend anyways?


----------



## wilheldp_PE

ironman said:


> I do agree though that I dont think the boom times are comming back and we need to start teaching our kids to be worked like dogs for marginal compensation


This. This is why you're a delusional idiot.

Working 40 to 50 hours per week for a salary that puts you in the upper middle class of America is FAR, FAR from being "worked like a dog for marginal compensation." People at or below the poverty line that are working 2 to 3 jobs just to feed themselves and/or their families meet that description, but nobody on this forum does.

Look at this chart. The median income for a 25+ year old that is employed full time and has a Master's degree is $61,273. Like everybody has told you a freakin' million times, unless you are in a boom time, or you live in a high cost of living area, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE SIX FIGURES until late in your career.

I think I'll argue with my stapler now because it's more productive.


----------



## Paul S

Just last night I watched a show on the Ancient Aliens and the Ancient Astronaut Theory, and it turns out that a real long time ago, some aliens came to earth to mine gold, since there planet needed more gold. But the aliens decided it was too much work and cross-breed with homo-sapiens to create human slave workers, the Sumerians.

Based on this, us humans are all slaves to the gold mine.


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## benbo

> Never said I wanted an easy path, I hardly call a BS and a PE working on an MS in a different disipline "easy".


It's not that hard. Most of us have done it.


----------



## ironman

wilheldp_PE said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do agree though that I dont think the boom times are comming back and we need to start teaching our kids to be worked like dogs for marginal compensation
> 
> 
> 
> This. This is why you're a delusional idiot.
> 
> Working 40 to 50 hours per week for a salary that puts you in the upper middle class of America is FAR, FAR from being "worked like a dog for marginal compensation." People at or below the poverty line that are working 2 to 3 jobs just to feed themselves and/or their families meet that description, but nobody on this forum does.
> 
> Look at this chart. The median income for a 25+ year old that is employed full time and has a Master's degree is $61,273. Like everybody has told you a freakin' million times, unless you are in a boom time, or you live in a high cost of living area, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO MAKE SIX FIGURES until late in your career.
> 
> I think I'll argue with my stapler now because it's more productive.
Click to expand...

I never said I was, im just saying the trend is going that direction, I had an older co worker do a time value of money calculation (becuase he was bored) and said that based on inflation the entry level salery of someone 30-40 years ago was MUCH higher than it is today and that trend is steadily going downwards. The costs of goods and services is going up at a much faster rate than engineering wages. I am not dilusional I know exactly what is going on, we now label what were once a regular decent salery as "boom time money" and the regular saleries are now deflated and steady decreasing compared to inflation and the cost of goods and services.

So I agree that I myself am not being "worked like a dog" but I am doing much worse than my engineering counter parts that started in the 50's and 60's and even 70's. By the time my kids are of age THEY will be worked like dogs and college will not even be practical because the degrees wont pay anything and if they do the competition will be so cut throat that it wont be worth the effort....unless things radically change RIGHT NOW.

Back in the day an engineering salery could buy you a single family home in a few years a paid for car and your wife could stay home and take care of the kids with a little extra money left over. My grandpa worked at a coal mine in the 40's through the 60's or when ever he retired and was able to have a house paid for and his wife stayed at home and raised 3 kids AND he was able to buy a PA-18 super cub and several decent rifles and go on hunting trips. I am lucky if I can put a new laminate floor in my 100 sq ft kitchen, thats just the way it is, I agree thats just life, but dont piss on my head and try to make me believe its raining, our generation is being ripped off big time and our kids will be the equivalent to endentured servants. No one will be buying air planes or the like with an engineering degree unless they have saved for it half their lives and have one foot in the grave already. I will probably be the last in my generation that will be able to undertake such things but I will have to sink my entire life into having a nice plane, for my kids things like that wont even be an option (I guess they could fly my plane when I die, if thats their thing).

I think we all agree thats just the way it is but I think some of you are happy about it. To each their own I guess.


----------



## wilheldp_PE

You can buy anything you want on any salary as long as you are intelligent with your money. I seriously doubt that any of the old timers owned their own house free and clear, plus an airplane, by the time they were 30, which is what you appear to feel entitled to.

Your example is pretty damn funny, I must admit. Your grandpa worked his ass off in a coal mine for 20 years, and in the end had a house, an airplane, and a family that was well taken care of. How is it that you feel entitled to that same lifestyle at 6 years into your, admittedly cushy, career?


----------



## navyasw02

Must be one hell of a union if a coal miner can afford a plane.

Look, I'm not disagreeing with you that times have changed and that we aren't as well off as our parents, but we're not too bad off. I make more now by myself than my parents did when I was growing up and I cant afford the house my parents bought then and still have now. Am I living paycheck to paycheck? No. I'm doing pretty damn well and I save about a quarter of my take home pay and still live within my means quite comfortably.

I'm also realistic enough that I dont expect that my standard of living in my early 30's to be the same as what my parent's in their mid 40s when I went off to school. My/our generation for some reason wants to jump out of college and have it as good as our parents without having to earn it and pay our dues. Thems the breaks.


----------



## Santiagj

Damn, I don't know anybody who owns their own private plane. Only people from these boards. I'm content with owning my own log splitter and a STIHL MS310 chainsaw. That thing is a beast. If my house were on fire the chainsaw would be 2nd on my list to get. 1st is my dog and I assume my wife will get herself out on her own.


----------



## roadwreck

Santiagj said:


> If my house were on fire the chainsaw would be 2nd on my list to get. 1st is my dog and I assume my wife will get herself out on her own.


lol, I'm sure your wife would love to hear she must fend for herself b/c you are getting the dog and the chainsaw first.


----------



## Santiagj

Okay....the chainsaw will be 3rd then.


----------



## roadwreck

Santiagj said:


> Okay....the chainsaw will be 3rd then.


they don't call it the widow-maker for nothing.


----------



## Chucktown PE

FWIW, I know plenty of engineers that have really nice boats and houses. They're 15 to 20 years older than I am but they live pretty damn good lifestyles. I'm not saying that I'm happy with my current pay, which is why I'm leaving my current employer, but I see no reason why I can't achieve a quality of life as good as my parents......provided our government doesn't screw up our economy any more than they already have.


----------



## willsee

ironman said:


> Back in the day an engineering salery could buy you a single family home in a few years a paid for car and your wife could stay home and take care of the kids with a little extra money left over. My grandpa worked at a coal mine in the 40's through the 60's or when ever he retired and was able to have a house paid for and his wife stayed at home and raised 3 kids AND he was able to buy a PA-18 super cub and several decent rifles and go on hunting trips. I am lucky if I can put a new laminate floor in my 100 sq ft kitchen, thats just the way it is, I agree thats just life, but dont piss on my head and try to make me believe its raining, our generation is being ripped off big time and our kids will be the equivalent to endentured servants.


I doubt back in the day he was paying 100+ a month for cell phone, 100+ a month for internet/cable tv/landline, and various other things either that people feel entitled to.

I make enough money right now to support a wife, mortgage payment, apartment rent (while we are trying to sell our house), car payment + insurance, 2 student loan payments, and all the other bills that go along with that. You must be doing something really wrong with your salary if you can't put laminate floor in your tiny kitchen.

Not to mention I probably make the least amount of all of my friends that I graudated with. I don't have my PE yet and I don't make a high salary for my area. I had to move from Louisville, KY to Paducah, KY (the country) just to land a job that I wanted. Also paid more than what certain MEP firms in Louisville were offering.


----------



## ironman

navyasw02 said:


> Must be one hell of a union if a coal miner can afford a plane.
> Look, I'm not disagreeing with you that times have changed and that we aren't as well off as our parents, but we're not too bad off. I make more now by myself than my parents did when I was growing up and I cant afford the house my parents bought then and still have now. Am I living paycheck to paycheck? No. I'm doing pretty damn well and I save about a quarter of my take home pay and still live within my means quite comfortably.
> 
> I'm also realistic enough that I dont expect that my standard of living in my early 30's to be the same as what my parent's in their mid 40s when I went off to school. My/our generation for some reason wants to jump out of college and have it as good as our parents without having to earn it and pay our dues. Thems the breaks.


The dollar amount might be more but what that dollar can buy is MUCH less, I mean heck my dad step mom and my fiance and I went out to pizza and it was like50-60$ with a decent coupon. Just to have pizza (thank God my dad was buying). I am able to save around 60% of my net pay but thats a drop in the hat when you start looking at what things like a wedding cost, house repairs etc. We are thinking about getting rid of the condo and renting a small apt so we can save more, not that my small condo is all that but its like almost 40% of my net income. Even with my bills cut down to nothing its still pretty staggering to look at saving 70k for a pitts S2C and thats not including the hangar kit and air port lease plus having it inspected and taking the wings off and shipping it up.

Its going to get harder and harder for our kids to shift money around to be able to do anything truely useful other than just eat and pay bills living nearly pay check to pay check (not totally but close enough). We will see what happens in the years to come.


----------



## Chucktown PE

Again with this airplane nonsense. An airplane is a very expensive *LUXURY* item. If you can afford an airplane, you're doing just fine money wise. Just because I can't afford an airplane and a hangar doesn't mean I'm living the life of a pauper.


----------



## ironman

w0cyru01 said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> Back in the day an engineering salery could buy you a single family home in a few years a paid for car and your wife could stay home and take care of the kids with a little extra money left over. My grandpa worked at a coal mine in the 40's through the 60's or when ever he retired and was able to have a house paid for and his wife stayed at home and raised 3 kids AND he was able to buy a PA-18 super cub and several decent rifles and go on hunting trips. I am lucky if I can put a new laminate floor in my 100 sq ft kitchen, thats just the way it is, I agree thats just life, but dont piss on my head and try to make me believe its raining, our generation is being ripped off big time and our kids will be the equivalent to endentured servants.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt back in the day he was paying 100+ a month for cell phone, 100+ a month for internet/cable tv/landline, and various other things either that people feel entitled to.
> 
> I make enough money right now to support a wife, mortgage payment, apartment rent (while we are trying to sell our house), car payment + insurance, 2 student loan payments, and all the other bills that go along with that. You must be doing something really wrong with your salary if you can't put laminate floor in your tiny kitchen.
> 
> Not to mention I probably make the least amount of all of my friends that I graudated with. I don't have my PE yet and I don't make a high salary for my area. I had to move from Louisville, KY to Paducah, KY (the country) just to land a job that I wanted. Also paid more than what certain MEP firms in Louisville were offering.
Click to expand...

I think people use the word "entitlement" to liberally, there is a difference between an entitlement and a reasonable expectation, everything I am talking about is reasonable expectation. An entitlement means you dont work for it. If you work then you expect to be paid, its not an entitlement, and an expectation of wages that keep up with the cost of living is also not an entitlement, its not wanting to be an endentured servant. Also as technology progresses there is an expectation that certian things become the status quo and are not entitlement if you are working, however, when thoes status quo technologies exceed a certian percentage of the average guys income it becomes an extortion, which is what cell phone and cable companies are doing right now.

That is why there are limitations on patents so the original inventor can make some money on his ingenuity but that people cant keep milking it forever, at a certian point it has to just be common knowlage to the benifit of society. The problem with cell phones and cable companies is the gov has not applied utility status to them and price fixed them like they do with gas and electric so its become a huge racket. I have a prepaid cell phone but its kind of a joke that I cant just have a cell in place of a land line without spending a fortune becuase there are no government controls on cell companies as a utility.


----------



## ironman

Chucktown PE said:


> Again with this airplane nonsense. An airplane is a very expensive *LUXURY* item. If you can afford an airplane, you're doing just fine money wise. Just because I can't afford an airplane and a hangar doesn't mean I'm living the life of a pauper.


The point is if I wanted to be a pauper I would not have become a PE, the point is the doors to thoes "luxurys" or a better way of putting it is "a better life" are closing. The whole point of all this is not so that I can eat and have a basic vehical, I could work at a liquor store and do that. The luxurys are the motivation to go above and beyond (which is what communist countries lack, is that incentive). If the desire/expectation for a "luxury" through above and beyond performance/degrees/etc is going to be met with scorn then why work any harder than the next guy for your twinky.


----------



## Dark Knight

opcorn: Daaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnn.

This thread took a dive with a spiral included. How did it go from the easy state to pass the PE exam to...ahhh fill the blank.

As I said... opcorn:


----------



## willsee

ironman said:


> Chucktown PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again with this airplane nonsense. An airplane is a very expensive *LUXURY* item. If you can afford an airplane, you're doing just fine money wise. Just because I can't afford an airplane and a hangar doesn't mean I'm living the life of a pauper.
> 
> 
> 
> The point is if I wanted to be a pauper I would not have become a PE, the point is the doors to thoes "luxurys" or a better way of putting it is "a better life" are closing. The whole point of all this is not so that I can eat and have a basic vehical, I could work at a liquor store and do that. The luxurys are the motivation to go above and beyond (which is what communist countries lack, is that incentive). If the desire/expectation for a "luxury" through above and beyond performance/degrees/etc is going to be met with scorn then why work any harder than the next guy for your twinky.
Click to expand...

I think you need to take a personal finance course. Again I afford many things on just my salary and it isn't even the median that wilhelm posted earlier.


----------



## ironman

Dark Knight said:


> opcorn: Daaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnn.
> This thread took a dive with a spiral included. How did it go from the easy state to pass the PE exam to...ahhh fill the blank.
> 
> As I said... opcorn:


Making the test easier for any group is a joke, the test is not about vets rights its about technical competency, I think every one agreed with that and the conversation segwayed.


----------



## ironman

w0cyru01 said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Chucktown PE said:
> 
> 
> 
> Again with this airplane nonsense. An airplane is a very expensive *LUXURY* item. If you can afford an airplane, you're doing just fine money wise. Just because I can't afford an airplane and a hangar doesn't mean I'm living the life of a pauper.
> 
> 
> 
> The point is if I wanted to be a pauper I would not have become a PE, the point is the doors to thoes "luxurys" or a better way of putting it is "a better life" are closing. The whole point of all this is not so that I can eat and have a basic vehical, I could work at a liquor store and do that. The luxurys are the motivation to go above and beyond (which is what communist countries lack, is that incentive). If the desire/expectation for a "luxury" through above and beyond performance/degrees/etc is going to be met with scorn then why work any harder than the next guy for your twinky.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think you need to take a personal finance course. Again I afford many things on just my salary and it isn't even the median that wilhelm posted earlier.
Click to expand...

If by personal fiance you mean living in a tent squating on city property in order to save nearly 100% of your take home in order to complete personal financial goals in a timely manner then I guess so, the thing is it should not be that way. Maybe it would get me on the news then.

I remember a quote I read in a stock/investing paper about the dangers of being overly optomistic when a stock is tanking, sometimes people will say oh well it will eventually go back up its not like they are going out of buisness and the writer of the article responed to the hypothetical statement with, yea and we all eventually die too.


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## Insaf

5 points is a big difference, because I know hundreds of engineers are getting failing grade for just shy of 2-3 points.


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## Callan74

Jesus..I just lost a few IQ points reading this whole thread. I will never pass the PE now!!!


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## Coastal Engineer

w0cyru01 said:


> raisinbran said:
> 
> 
> 
> Military friendly state Georgia! It is.
> They give you extra 5 points to your score. If you are eligible for veteran's preference points.
> 
> Join the military and have yourself ship to war zone for at least 90 days.
> 
> http://sos.georgia.gov/plb/faqs/09%20faqs.htm#Q. How does the NCEES
> 
> 
> 
> So if you get a 65 + 5 in Georgia I guess that means you can't apply for license in other states since you wouldn't have passed otherwise?
Click to expand...

This is absolutely mind boggling. I would never have believed this if I didn't just read it on the Georgia's Licensing Board web page. Makes no sense to me. You were in a war zone so let's give you a few extra points. Lost a limb? Here is a few more for good measure.


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## Coastal Engineer

navyasw02 said:


> Dark Knight said:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope you are kidding. I cannot believe somebody trully think in that way. While I do not agree with the 5 point buffer it is also true that if someone can be good enough to take a weapon and defend our country, he/she must be good enough to receive some benefits out of it. If that benefit is a 5 points head start in the PE test so be it. Who am I to go against that? Who are you?
> 
> 
> 
> I disagree. Benefits/recognition is one thing, lowering a standard is another. Giving preferential treatment to subsets of people only waters down the whole process. Should we give an extra 5 points to people with ADD or learning disabilities? How about people with one arm who cant write as quickly? People with deadbeat dads who had a tougher time growing up? Fat people who cant sit in the chair as easily? Conjoined twins with one twin being an art history major? Where does it end? A standard is a standard for a reason, and as applicants it is our responsibility to make sure we meet it.
Click to expand...

Funny stuff.


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