# Renewable Energy Credits?



## C-Dog (Dec 7, 2007)

Can someone explain them? They don't make sense to me. They kind of seem like they take double credit for renewable power generation.

I also don't get the whole choosing your electric generator thing. I mean if I choose company X that has a plant 50 miles away, but company Y has a plant 10 miles away, my e- are probably coming from Y?


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## benbo (Dec 7, 2007)

C-Dog said:


> Can someone explain them? They don't make sense to me. They kind of seem like they take double credit for renewable power generation.
> I also don't get the whole choosing your electric generator thing. I mean if I choose company X that has a plant 50 miles away, but company Y has a plant 10 miles away, my e- are probably coming from Y?


RECs are sort of weird to me but as I understand it they are traded where utilities are required to produce a certain percentage of their power from renewables - places that have Renewable Portfolio Standards. In the same way that a utility can buy carbon credits that in effect allow them to pay in order to pollute, they can buy RECs to allow them to get out of some of their renewable generation requirements. And like everything, there is now a market for these things. I'm not sure what you mean by double credit - but then again, I don't understand any of this that well. There are others here who are on the transmission side of things that maybe understand it better.

As far as paying a certain plant to generate - all the electrons are just on the grid. You don't actually get the electrons straight from the plant. THat's how we can import power, and wheel it through the state. The plants (suppliers) sell all their generation into the market at a certain cost, and the users, either utilities or indvidual customers in your case, purchase out of the pool. Groups like the ISOs and others do all the arbitrage transactions in the middle. If you want to buy from source X at price Y they will buy that amount of power from them out of the pool. Again, somebody else will probably explain it better than I.


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## Wolverine (Dec 7, 2007)

I stopped by my local nationwide bicycle shop awhile back and was interested to see that they are dedicated *Green Energy* enthusiasts, declaring that they "*purchase renewable wind energy credits that will offset 100% of the electricity used by all of our retail stores*."

That was interesting because I was heavily involved in generator interconnection and I knew that there was *no *wind energy in my state - none, zip, zero, nada - and only one green energy applicant, not even online yet. They were buying *Green Energy*  _*credits*_ from elsewhere to offset local use.

So that's when I developed my own brilliant business plan (_and here is where we depart from reality into satire_). I decided to use the _*credit bit*_ to start selling bicycle credits. Here's how it works: you decide (or your doctor states!) you are too fat. You must lose weight. But you don't like exercise; it's too hard, you get sweaty, there's no gym nearby, and it's too much work anyway. So what you do is buy _*credits*_. You sit on the couch and eat *Cheetos*, while I go ride my bike, which I'm going to do anyway. I sell you the exercise credit, and you give it to your doctor to show him you're doing your part to be healthy. I get paid, you get to relax on the couch, and everyone feels better. Especially me if I'm getting government subsidies for my new bike anyway.

Now back to reality: Locally, the power grid is a complex network of interconnected facililties - generators, lines, transformers, etc. It's not one simple linear thing. Everybody puts into it, everybody draws out of it, almost like the internet. The local utility grid planners/operators work to ensure that power flows freely and no individual piece gets overloaded. They try to plan for the worst contingency during the one peak load hour of the year, but remember, it's not a linear system. There are a thousand different variables that make it difficult to determine where the power is going to go, and those variables are constantly changing (see Blackout 2003). So we mark the overall trends and try to do the least amount of work to get the most amount of system security.

In reality, some wind farm in Wyoming has virtually no impact on load in Peoria. I confess to being a cynic and not a fan of global planning for local solutions, but energy credits make some feel better (and carbon credits too, and fat credits).

(_Now for my real soapbox - I do not believe conservation can ever keep up with our growth rate, and I do not believe renewables can replace fossil fuels with out massive government subsidy, barring discovery of cold fusion or perpetual motion. Answer: Nuclear, baby!._)


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## FLBuff PE (Dec 7, 2007)

Wolverine said:


> I stopped by my local nationwide bicycle shop awhile back and was interested to see that they are dedicated *Green Energy* enthusiasts, declaring that they "*purchase renewable wind energy credits that will offset 100% of the electricity used by all of our retail stores*."
> That was interesting because I was heavily involved in generator interconnection and I knew that there was *no *wind energy in my state - none, zip, zero, nada - and only one green energy applicant, not even online yet. They were buying *Green Energy*  _*credits*_ from elsewhere to offset local use.
> 
> So that's when I developed my own brilliant business plan (_and here is where we depart from reality into satire_). I decided to use the _*credit bit*_ to start selling bicycle credits. Here's how it works: you decide (or your doctor states!) you are too fat. You must lose weight. But you don't like exercise; it's too hard, you get sweaty, there's no gym nearby, and it's too much work anyway. So what you do is buy _*credits*_. You sit on the couch and eat *Cheetos*, while I go ride my bike, which I'm going to do anyway. I sell you the exercise credit, and you give it to your doctor to show him you're doing your part to be healthy. I get paid, you get to relax on the couch, and everyone feels better. Especially me if I'm getting government subsidies for my new bike anyway.
> ...


I am interested in joining your exercise co-op (?) and be your Colorado division. I ride a bike all spring-fall, and ski/snowboard in the winter. Let me know how we can set this up! (BTW, can anyone set up a hangover credit system?)

Thanks for the explanation. As an Enviro, I felt fuzzy about credits, but kinda wondered exactly what it meant when "Company X offfsets all carbon emmissions with credits". I was not sure if the credits were bought locally, or globally. You may have created another cynic!


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## Wolverine (Dec 9, 2007)

lusone:


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## C-Dog (Dec 10, 2007)

Great way to look at them W. Thanks. You can probably sell your bike miles as RECs too, since you are not driving!

To eliminate our thirst for fossils, it will have to be a multi-pronged approach. Energy Efficiency, conservation, and generation. There is a difference between efficiency and conservation. Efficiency is buying a car that gets +50 mpg. Conservation is turning down the thermostat 2 degrees in the winter.

In the long run what will drive us there is high oil prices. They will drive us to greater efficiency and to new sources.


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