# BS Engineering with Law Degree



## pavell

Hey guys I was wondering what you guys think of a BS in engineering, with a law degree. There are many lawyers out there but almost none with technical backgrounds. I know a PE professional witness that testifies in court, and he tells me a lawyer with an engineering degree with clean up. He says that most of the lawyers dont know jack squat and if you have basic engineering knowledge most lawyers cant even touch you in some cases.

Just want to know what you guys think.

Also wondering about Engineering BS, MBA, JD combination?? Would qualify you on business and engineering grounds in court.


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## Supe

Quite a few patent attorneys with that combo.


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## Capt Worley PE

^When I interviewed at the patent office, they said the turnover was really high because a lot of people got their law degrees and became patent attorneys. i guess they'd have a leg up knowing how the system worked.


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## Chucktown PE

I would be weary of law school right now. Do a little research on the number of people in law school and the demand for lawyers. If you're at a top school and have great grades you probably won't have a problem but there is an oversupply of lawyers that is causing low salaries and a lot of law graduates are getting out of school with not a hope of finding a job.


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## Fluvial

The combination of degrees is said to be a good one. Engineering school teaches you how to think in logical steps and how to best attack problems.

OTOH I don't know anyone with an MBA who uses it, so I can't speak to that.


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## udpolo15

I agree with Chucktown. Lawyers who have a chance for large salaries (150K+) starting are limited to the best schools (true even in good times). If that is what it would take for it to work with both personal and financial satisfaction, I wouldn't consider it unless you plan to go to a Top 20 school. Unfortunately, the cost for law school doesn't drop that much at a middle of the road school vs some of the top ones.

Another thing to consider that if you make it to big law, the life style is very different than engineering. Long hours, all nighters, canceled vacations, etc.

That being said, if you can swing it financially (some state law schools are very good and can be a lot cheaper) with expectation of instant riches, there is probably opportunity for long term success. Even if you don't go and practice, there are opportunities where a law degree is useful and can payoff in the long run.


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## snickerd3

several of my classmates from undergrad went straight into law school (patent law) because jobs were scarce right after 9/11. I'd say half of my classmates (ChemE) did not have jobs at graduation. Many went on to grad school.


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## dastuff

I had a partner in a law firm come and speak at one of my engineering courses and he said that it was a nice route to go.

But i think going straight from BS to a law degree won't be as helpful as if you had a few years of real life experience thrown in there. I learned more my first 3 years of working than five times what they taught me in school.


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## CivE Bricky

dastuff said:


> But i think going straight from BS to a law degree won't be as helpful as if you had a few years of real life experience thrown in there. I learned more my first 3 years of working than five times what they taught me in school.


I wholeheartedly agree. Work for an owner; work for a contractor; work for a designer.

I have a friend who did a PhD in Biochemistry/Genetics and then went to law school. (all at really GOOD schools.) She had a horrendous time finding employment--no one wanted a patent attorney without experience. She was secret shopping, delivering pizza etc.

Then she got a small break with an legal job offer 1000 miles from home.

She lived (way) apart from her husband for 2 years just so she didn't have to throw out her law education. Then she took a sweatshop attorney job for maybe $40K just live in the same house with her husband again. Now, about 5 years after law school, she's finally being paid a decent salary (perhaps no higher than a engineer with a BS who gained experience while she went to school). I think the outrageous hours are still part of the mix, though. She is finally working for a firm that needs the genetics background -- as opposed to "general" patent cases---and is overall, happy.

My guess is that the engineer/attorney combo may have similar tradeoffs -- do serious research about opportunities and lifestyle before you jump in.


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## z06dustin

A good friend of mine is a material science major (not eng but close) and he's graduating with a JD this coming spring. I think it's interesting to say the least... he's not going into patent law because he says it's boring as hell, and I think I'd have to agree from what I've seen. Make sure you do some informal interviews of people working in the field, make sure it's something you REALLY want to do. Law school is a huge investment, and when I looked into it students on average graduate $80-90k in debt. Also, like stated above, do your research about how JD grads feel about it. From what I remember some 60-odd percent regret ever going.


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## z06dustin

Oh, and as stated above, your typical lawyer makes crappy salary. The big $$$ is in comissions from huge settlements.


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## RIP - VTEnviro

I knew a girl who got a ChemE degree than planned to go into envl law. Had a law schoo lined up when we graduated. I have no idea what happened after that.


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## Dleg

I've known a few lawyers who were engineers for several years (and one guy who was a city manager). Frankly, they seem to get less respect from some of the "regular" lawyers, but mostly because they are considered "junior" lawyers because they started so late.

I've also known at least a half dozen lawyers who never hesitated to make engineering decisions, despite having no training as engineers.

I guess what I am saying is this: Lawyers are arrogant scum, as a rule. Don't become a lawyer unless you want to become a lawyer.


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## Roy T.

Never in my life did I think i would say this... but the future - in terms of well paying job - is in..... ENGINEERING

I would go so far as to say it doesn't even matter which branch you start out in - mechanical, civil, electrical, chemical... go into a high-dollar industry and the sky is the limit. lots more jobs in those industries (energy, oil and gas, process) than in law.

devon energy average salary for it's engineers is $175k. plus, even in a down market, it's a *lot* easier to start an engineering practice than a law practice.

Forget law school. Get your PE


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## Chucktown PE

^^ Are you hiring? $175k my ass. Find me an engineer making over $100k anywhere on this board and I'll be impressed. I'm making $82k and I've been out of school (with a M.S.) for almost 6 years now.


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## MGX

Petroleum engineers usually make more money than most other engineers. They also work like dogs and go places most people wouldn't.

Engineering isn't usually a way to get rich. Being a doctor/lawyer/entrepreneur is much more likely to net you big bucks.


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## Roy T.

Chucktown PE said:


> ^^ Are you hiring? $175k my ass. Find me an engineer making over $100k anywhere on this board and I'll be impressed. I'm making $82k and I've been out of school (with a M.S.) for almost 6 years now.


It takes a little bit of initiative but their are plenty of engineers who make well into 6 figures. working for county government wont get you there, nor will working for most structural AE (building structural is a low-paying gig contrary to popular belief)

6 figures is not at all uncommon for a PE in industry.

maybe you fit this profile?

http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?Job...amp;from=indeed

200-250k / yr

and yes - I make 6 figures.


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## Roy T.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/fortun....fortune/6.html


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## squishles10

that is not what engineers at devon make. that is what the average salaried employee makes. the most common salaried title at the company is engineer. read what you post and dont exaggerate.


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## Roy T.

I know what I make and the people in my industry (oil and gas) make. I recognize that is not the norm, but it is what it is. I'm sorry if that's not *your* reality, but that IS the reality of a lot of folks.

(btw. devon has a lot of secretaries, accountants etc. bringing down the "average" - do the math)


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## Road Guy

I know a lot of people with 10 years experience in *gasp* civil that make 6 figures and dont have to work in the oil fields


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## Amicus

Since I'm a patent attorney with a PE, I'll add to the responses here. The answer to the question is like the answer to every other question in law: it depends!

First, there _are_ too many lawyers. 40,000 graduates are taking the bar this week, and in a few months, at least 30,000 of them will become admitted attorneys. Few will have found employment by then, at least not in the legal field. Still, the benevolent USPTO limits the number of patent attorneys out there. Any lawyer can claim to be a "tax lawyer" or "criminal lawyer," but you must be registered with the PTO to call yourself a "patent lawyer." It's a recognized specialty. So fortunately, there is far less competition for the patent law jobs that do exist.

Still, as a civil engineer, the road to a solid position in patent law with a large firm or prestigious patent boutique is very uphill. Patent prosecution is hot right now in electrical, computer, and biotech, and lukewarm in mechanical. Civil engineering just does not represent the bleeding edge of technological development. Also, the PE license is pretty insignificant in the legal world (unless you're a expert witness).

As for money, large law firms pay well. $145-160k is the norm right now. However, keep in mind that those firms pay a ton because they have to, otherwise nobody would work there. The work-life balance is, well, nonexistent. There are late nights and long weekends, and many projects assigned to young associates are mind-numbing. To bill 2000 hours, you might end up working 2500 in a year. That's a lot of time in the office, or worse, on the road. People deal with it because they are six figures in student loan debt (which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy).

You might end up liking law better than engineering. I did, but it's not for everyone.


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## Flyer_PE

Road Guy said:


> I know a lot of people with 10 years experience in *gasp* civil that make 6 figures and dont have to work in the oil fields


I know at least one nuclear plant in WI was offering right at six figures for Systems Engineers last year. With new construction coming, the demand is pretty high for people with nuclear experience right now.


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## chaosiscash

Flyer_PE said:


> I know at least one nuclear plant in WI was offering right at six figures for Systems Engineers last year. With new construction coming, the demand is pretty high for people with nuclear experience right now.


+1


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## Chucktown PE

Roy T. said:


> It takes a little bit of initiative but their are plenty of engineers who make well into 6 figures. working for county government wont get you there, nor will working for most structural AE (building structural is a low-paying gig contrary to popular belief)
> 6 figures is not at all uncommon for a PE in industry.
> 
> maybe you fit this profile?
> 
> http://jobview.monster.com/GetJob.aspx?Job...amp;from=indeed
> 
> 200-250k / yr
> 
> and yes - I make 6 figures.


I can't tell if you're implying that I'm lacking in the initiative department or not. I'll assume you're not. I work a solid 50 to 60 hours every week and I have other sources of income (stock market and used boat sales) that makes me some more money on the side. I know plenty of people in my company that are making $100k but let's be honest, that's just not that much money any more. I just think that in general, you're not going to get rich in this profession. Even if you do open your own shop, the chances of you ever making good money are slim.


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## ALBin517

pavell said:


> Hey guys I was wondering what you guys think of a BS in engineering, with a law degree. There are many lawyers out there but almost none with technical backgrounds. I know a PE professional witness that testifies in court, and he tells me a lawyer with an engineering degree with clean up. He says that most of the lawyers dont know jack squat and if you have basic engineering knowledge most lawyers cant even touch you in some cases.
> Just want to know what you guys think.
> 
> Also wondering about Engineering BS, MBA, JD combination?? Would qualify you on business and engineering grounds in court.



I looked at law school long and hard after I became a PE. I went as far as applying and taking the LSAT.

But I looked at what I'd likely make after graduation versus what I'd make if I just kept my present course and figured the "extra" over the next 20 years would just about pay off the expense of law school.

So I am presently looking at grad schools for business / management. Tuition will be about $15k compared to $100k for law school and the investment of time is similarly less.

Not many people are successfully going to law school to make big money these days.

One of my coworkers graduated from a Big Ten law school in 2006 but stayed here until last month. He got a couple offers after graduation but they were significant pay cuts. I think he still took a smaller pay cut when he left here but I'm not sure.


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## Roy T.

Chucktown PE said:


> I can't tell if you're implying that I'm lacking in the initiative department or not. I'll assume you're not. I work a solid 50 to 60 hours every week and I have other sources of income (stock market and used boat sales) that makes me some more money on the side. I know plenty of people in my company that are making $100k but let's be honest, that's just not that much money any more. I just think that in general, you're not going to get rich in this profession. Even if you do open your own shop, the chances of you ever making good money are slim.


I'm not implying that at all. I recently moved from a place were engineers are not highly paid to an area were, by and large, they are. It was a life change and we left a rather leisurly environment of beaches, family and friends to a big dirty city with long work hours. It was not an easy decision and one I still think about.

and you're right - $100k is not what it used to be - but back to the topic of the board, there are a lot of lawyers that would kill to make six figures right now.

My point is people should not be so negative about Engineering as a profession and (if money is your interest) opportunities *are* out there.

Also, the "success" rate for all Engineering firms is about 65% (so I was told), much higher than most other businesses. A "successful" engineering firm can easily net the proprietor 6 figures. "Success" meaning a business able to provide a primary source of income for the proprietor.

Will that make you Bill Gates? no, but a decent living nonetheless.


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## Chucktown PE

I guess I've been pretty peeved with my job and my company lately and that is spilling over into resentment if you can't tell. We didn't get raises this year and the executive committee is "studying" a 10% across the board pay cut.

I really regret not going to medical school. I often think about taking a couple of classes and taking the MCAT to see what happens. But I have two kids and a wife that doesn't work and spending the next 10 years in school/residency/fellowship will mean that I'll miss thier childhood.


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## benbo

Chucktown PE said:


> I really regret not going to medical school. I often think about taking a couple of classes and taking the MCAT to see what happens. But I have two kids and a wife that doesn't work and spending the next 10 years in school/residency/fellowship will mean that I'll miss thier childhood.


These days, I don't even think it is wise to go into med school if your reason is to earn more money. I make almost as much as my GP doc. And with the new healthcare proposals, who knows what is going to happen to doctor's pay. To make a lot you have to be a specialist, and that takes even more time.

IMO Med school is something to start when you're young, single, and because you want to go into medicine.

Somewhat unrelated: If you are really interested you can go to the aamc website and take a free practice MCAT for fun. Not sure how accurate it is, but I like taking those kinds of tests. I personally think that most engineers would kick butt on these tests, compared to your typical biology major.


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## Chucktown PE

To clarify, I didn't mean I wanted to go to medical school just to become a doctor. I think it would be more rewarding than what I'm doing now and I would have enjoyed it more. Or course the grass is always greener on the other side.


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## CivE Bricky

Chucktown PE said:


> To clarify, I didn't mean I wanted to go to medical school just to become a doctor. I think it would be more rewarding than what I'm doing now and I would have enjoyed it more. Or course the grass is always greener on the other side.


I'm curious, Chucktown - what it about medicine that grabs you that you're not finding in your current job? Is there a way to add some of that to the mix, perhaps by changing jobs, but not career?


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## ALBin517

Chucktown PE said:


> I really regret not going to medical school. I often think about taking a couple of classes and taking the MCAT to see what happens. But I have two kids and a wife that doesn't work and spending the next 10 years in school/residency/fellowship will mean that I'll miss thier childhood.


I'd also considered med school a couple times - once for as long as thirty seconds. It doesn't take long to remember how bad I was at chemistry and that's the end of that daydream.


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## Amicus

ALBin517 said:


> One of my coworkers graduated from a Big Ten law school in 2006 but stayed here until last month. He got a couple offers after graduation but they were significant pay cuts. I think he still took a smaller pay cut when he left here but I'm not sure.


It's a bimodal distribution. Coming out of law school, new associates cluster around $60k or $160k, with almost nobody in the middle. Top students from top schools get $160k, and the best of the rest settle for the $60k jobs. Everyone else goes their own separate ways. Most move back in with their parents. However, they usually have undergraduate degrees in English or Political Science... :suicide1:

I work in my own law office, and most of my clients are contractors. (I also do some family law, and I hate it, but I digress.) The contractors like that I am a PE, and that is my selling point to them. I always found the claims, disputes, and arguments over extras to be the most interesting parts of engineering work. Now that is my life, so it's cool. Still, I don't make as much as most engineers, although I am trying to get there. Also, I will probably never work in patent law, and I am still coming to terms with that unfortunate reality.

I guess I'm doing this: :deadhorse:

Take home point: someone should only go to law school if law is what that person wants to do.

Even still, I think Rep. Jim Oberstar will get his way sooner or later (this is a good thing), and engineering will become hot and in demand. America is moving forward in the transportation sector, and someone is going to get a piece of that action.


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## ALBin517

Amicus said:


> It's a bimodal distribution. Coming out of law school, new associates cluster around $60k or $160k, with almost nobody in the middle. Top students from top schools get $160k, and the best of the rest settle for the $60k jobs. Everyone else goes their own separate ways. Most move back in with their parents.


FYI: My coworker was making $60k here as a planner (not an engineer). Sounds like most of his new clients are land developers who are trying to force their developments into municipalities that don't want them (going for variances, filing appeals, etc)


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## Road Guy

My grandfather was an ME, he ended being a part owner of a firm that designed and built incinerators (International Incinerators Incorporated) they dont do much work in the states since landfills ran him overseas, anyways he did pretty well for himself, but he gave me a fairly important piece of advice when I graduated.

I am going to paraphrase a little because this was a while ago when he told me this but it was pretty close to something like..

_Dont be obsessed with what you make in the first 5 to 10 years of your career, dont get consumed on what the person in the next office is making, focus on what you are getting paid to do, do it well, do whatever they ask you to do (within reason) dont turn down shitty assignments, jump on them, be a finisher, be someone thought of who gets things done, and if you do all those things then the financial part of the career will work itself out in your favor._

At the time that didnt mean a whole lot to me when I graduated but I could hear it in the background my first few years out of college, true we have to worry about our salaries to some extent, but I think what he was saying was fairly accurate and I would relay that information to any new graduate or new PE.


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## mcap8

Dleg said:


> I've known a few lawyers who were engineers for several years (and one guy who was a city manager). Frankly, they seem to get less respect from some of the "regular" lawyers, but mostly because they are considered "junior" lawyers because they started so late.
> I've also known at least a half dozen lawyers who never hesitated to make engineering decisions, despite having no training as engineers.
> 
> I guess what I am saying is this: Lawyers are arrogant scum, as a rule. Don't become a lawyer unless you want to become a lawyer.


A handful of friends of mine (and a co-worker) were engineers and later obtained JDs. The ones that made the switch into Law struggled early on from the ego blow of being considered 'junior' status. Most of them didn't go the litigation route, but rather work in codes, environmental regulatory law, etc. Then they seemed to do well, but I still like to call them lawyer scum to their faces!


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## picusld

Amicus said:


> Since I'm a patent attorney with a PE, I'll add to the responses here. The answer to the question is like the answer to every other question in law: it depends!
> First, there _are_ too many lawyers. 40,000 graduates are taking the bar this week, and in a few months, at least 30,000 of them will become admitted attorneys. Few will have found employment by then, at least not in the legal field. Still, the benevolent USPTO limits the number of patent attorneys out there. Any lawyer can claim to be a "tax lawyer" or "criminal lawyer," but you must be registered with the PTO to call yourself a "patent lawyer." It's a recognized specialty. So fortunately, there is far less competition for the patent law jobs that do exist.
> 
> Still, as a civil engineer, the road to a solid position in patent law with a large firm or prestigious patent boutique is very uphill. Patent prosecution is hot right now in electrical, computer, and biotech, and lukewarm in mechanical. Civil engineering just does not represent the bleeding edge of technological development. Also, the PE license is pretty insignificant in the legal world (unless you're a expert witness).
> 
> As for money, large law firms pay well. $145-160k is the norm right now. However, keep in mind that those firms pay a ton because they have to, otherwise nobody would work there. The work-life balance is, well, nonexistent. There are late nights and long weekends, and many projects assigned to young associates are mind-numbing. To bill 2000 hours, you might end up working 2500 in a year. That's a lot of time in the office, or worse, on the road. People deal with it because they are six figures in student loan debt (which cannot be discharged in bankruptcy).
> 
> You might end up liking law better than engineering. I did, but it's not for everyone.


To add on to the supply and demand argument, I just became aware that the NCEES will be requiring a master's degree, PhD, or 30 additional credits in order to sit for the PE exam starting either 2015 or 2020 (I have seen two different reports) along with the experience requirement. That is only going to make the license more valuble in the future.


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## EM_PS

^ it will certainly make it more costly. . .but i do not believe any additional value can be claimed (or will be paid out across the industry by employers) from the more robust requirements.


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## picusld

error_matrix said:


> ^ it will certainly make it more costly. . .but i do not believe any additional value can be claimed (or will be paid out across the industry by employers) from the more robust requirements.


The additional value will come by less people getting their PE due to not being able to obtain the education requirement. Therefore, less PEs will equal more money to the ones that have it. Theoretically...


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## Roy T.

picusld said:


> The additional value will come by less people getting their PE due to not being able to obtain the education requirement. Therefore, less PEs will equal more money to the ones that have it. Theoretically...


It's a double edge sword. Too few P.E.'s out there could have the opposite effect.

As it is now, more and more industries - even exempt industries, like the title P.E. 'cause it gives them a warm and fuzzy feeling that they are hiring quality. If it gets too restrictive, Industry will simply ignore it as irrelevant and more of an academic association and come up with there own standards - and lower salaries.


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## Dleg

I agree. I've seen this play out here: if PEs are too hard to come by, both business and government will begin to turn to foreign workers (non-PEs) to fill engineer positions, which drives down both the pay and demand for "real" PEs, and ultimately also reduces the public's respect for the profession (as quality declines....)

I truly despise all this talk about ways to increase the "status" of the engineering profession, through superficial means such as limiting the number of PEs that are licensed or through extra schooling for the sake of appearances. Society will always view engineers as engineers. What I mean by that is this: we are viewed as the technical gurus that society cannot live without, when it comes to designing, operating, and maintaining the infrastructure and technology that society depends on. The only way engineers can make themselves more valuable is to do as good a job as possible. NOT by wearing a tie, or having some fancy degree, or wearing wingtips and acting like a lawyer or doctor, and certainly NOT by artificially attempting to manipulate the market by limiting the number of engineers that can be licensed.


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## picusld

Dleg said:


> I agree. I've seen this play out here: if PEs are too hard to come by, both business and government will begin to turn to foreign workers (non-PEs) to fill engineer positions, which drives down both the pay and demand for "real" PEs, and ultimately also reduces the public's respect for the profession (as quality declines....)
> I truly despise all this talk about ways to increase the "status" of the engineering profession, through superficial means such as limiting the number of PEs that are licensed or through extra schooling for the sake of appearances. Society will always view engineers as engineers. What I mean by that is this: we are viewed as the technical gurus that society cannot live without, when it comes to designing, operating, and maintaining the infrastructure and technology that society depends on. The only way engineers can make themselves more valuable is to do as good a job as possible. NOT by wearing a tie, or having some fancy degree, or wearing wingtips and acting like a lawyer or doctor, and certainly NOT by artificially attempting to manipulate the market by limiting the number of engineers that can be licensed.


The value of the PE comes from the ability for an individual to take on the responsibility and liability for a paticular job that is sealed, not from the amount of effort that is put into the job or how good a job that is done. There are individuals at my company that are probably better designers than myself, but due to their inability to take responsibility legally for the job, I am worth more to the company.

Unfortnately, I think that your disdain and desire to set yourself apart from doctors and lawyers is shared among many PEs which is why we are ultimately not paid like them.

A quick google of a plumber's hourly rate is between 100-200 an hour. My rate is around 110. Something just does not seem right about that...


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## IlPadrino

picusld said:


> A quick google of a plumber's hourly rate is between 100-200 an hour. My rate is around 110. Something just does not seem right about that...


That doesn't sound right...

According to PayScale: Plumbers are making less than Engineers.


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## wilheldp_PE

IlPadrino said:


> That doesn't sound right...
> According to PayScale: Plumbers are making less than Engineers.


He's talking about bill rate, not pay rate. Engineers take home more of their billable rate than plumbers, but are billed out at a lower hourly rate. I have a feeling that this is due to the infrastructure required for a plumbing company. They need to have trucks, tools, some inventory of parts, heavy equipment, etc. to be effective plumbers, so the rate increases while take home pay remains the same. If you give an engineer a desk and a computer, we can do our jobs.


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## picusld

IlPadrino said:


> That doesn't sound right...
> According to PayScale: Plumbers are making less than Engineers.


I would agree that there yearly salary is less since plumbers are most likely not able to bill 40 hrs a week, but lets speculate that there hourly rate is $70-$90 with hikes during off hour services. The rate is still in the same ball park.

Plus, I don't think that they need to worry about being dragged into an ADA, trip and fall, etc... lawsuit 10 yrs after performing the service where the plaintiff could possibly go after their house if the E&amp;O insurance has lapsed at their original company for any reason.

My point is that by sealing a plan, an engineer is taking on liability that can easily be tracked through recordable plans and public testimony given to get a project approved. Even if an accident is a consequence of no design flaw, the engineer and company still have to pay attorneys to defend their position.


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## Roy T.

first off - i've found a lot of these "pay rate" web sites to provide completely bogus numbers. Generally very much on the LOW side. At the risk of sounding like a conspiracy theorist, I suspect HR departments and hiring departments influence the published numbers but don't reflect real wages they have to pay up to get qualified talent. take the published numbers, particularly the ones you find on web sites - with a huge grain of salt.

As far as the PE -- we can bark all day about how valuable we are for a company and how we take responsibility and liability and at the end of the day --- get ignored. The "PE" is simply not as established as some other professions and we must fight for recognition every day. A lot of progress has been made to earn respect - but don't kid yourself. There are still many companies out there that hire the token PE to sign and seal and take "liability" for areas where it's necessary, but really don't show the title much respect.

Also, don't underestimate corporate americas willingness to simply ignore the law AND get away with it.


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## resolve-engineering

I am a PE with A&amp;E, mechancial contractor and nuclear experience and have an MBA from a pretty decent school. The MBA _can_ help you, as it did in my case, land a position at a higher level at a younger age. I got the MBA with the intention of landing a corporate level job quicker and possibly looking to leave the A&amp;E world and entertain a more profitable business model(from a total NET standpoint, not necessarily from a margin standpoint).

*People ask: why a PE with an MBA? *

*Here is your answer:* MBA plus technical background helps you become an executive of corporation thats core business is highly technical. Having an understanding of engineering paired with finance knowledge/corporate strategy helps you lead tehcncial companies at a younger age rather than waiting your turn in line and climbing the Jr. Engr.. Sr Engr...Program Manager ladder.

I chose this path conciously as the business model for manaufacturers and contractors can be much more lucrative than a model in whcih you are billing other peoples hourly rates.

Bottom line however, do not go get an MBA without 3-5 years of expereince or else it can/will be useless. Who wants to hire someone with an MBA that screams "i know how to run a busness' without any real world experience?

Also, MBAs are like LAw degrees in that you MUST go to a top school for them to even make a real differenec in the eyes of most companies. Do an MBA at an Averitt/online school and you get coffee with that donut. No offense, but that it how it is. I kick myself for not going top 20. I went top 50. Put it this way, post MBA salaries go from 160K at a top school down to 55K(no change) at a run of the mill state university. School means everything.


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## Casey

Roy T. said:


> Never in my life did I think i would say this... but the future - in terms of well paying job - is in..... ENGINEERING
> I would go so far as to say it doesn't even matter which branch you start out in - mechanical, civil, electrical, chemical... go into a high-dollar industry and the sky is the limit. lots more jobs in those industries (energy, oil and gas, process) than in law.
> 
> devon energy average salary for it's engineers is $175k. plus, even in a down market, it's a *lot* easier to start an engineering practice than a law practice.
> 
> Forget law school. Get your PE


A bit offtopic....

Roy,

I didn't think the owner/operators generally hired civil/structural engineers. I'm on the EPC side of things and with my interactions with the O&amp;G companies, most of their engineers or managers with an engineering background are process, mechanical or electrical. How did you get in? And do you actually do any civil/structural work there?

And while the money on the EPC side is nice, I believe it is even nicer on the owner's side, with that said does Devon have any openings in the Calgary office? :eyebrows:

Thanks


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## outatime2002

Chucktown PE said:


> ^^ Are you hiring? $175k my ass. Find me an engineer making over $100k anywhere on this board and I'll be impressed. I'm making $82k and I've been out of school (with a M.S.) for almost 6 years now.


I was making 70k right out of college in 2007 only with an EIT license. I am now making around $85k still without a PE license. I'm guessing that as soon as I get my PE i will be in 6 figs. All of my superiors are making $150k plus. Where is the money at? Petrochemical facilities.


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