# Useless degrees are useless



## wilheldp_PE (Apr 22, 2012)

http://news.yahoo.com/1-2-graduates-jobless-underemployed-140300522.html



> "I don't even know what I'm looking for," says Michael Bledsoe, who described months of fruitless job searches as he served customers at a Seattle coffeehouse. The 23-year-old graduated in 2010 with a *creative writing degree*.
> 
> Initially hopeful that his college education would create opportunities, Bledsoe languished for three months before finally taking a job as a barista, a position he has held for the last two years. In the beginning he sent three or four resumes day. But, Bledsoe said, *employers questioned* his lack of experience or *the practical worth of his major.*


Seriously, what can you do with a creative writing degree other than be a writer? Even he admits that he doesn't know what he is looking for because his degree is utterly useless. The real reason that 1 in 2 college graduates are un- or under- employed is that they go to college for 4 years to earn a degree that doesn't make them any more marketable than a high school diploma. It has absolutely nothing to do with the job market or some mythical oppression by society.


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## YMZ PE (Apr 23, 2012)




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## YMZ PE (Apr 23, 2012)

In all seriousness I don't care what other people choose to major in, if they're paying for it themselves. What burns me is when people take out government loans to get useless degrees, then default on those loans and burden the rest of us when they can't get a decent job.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Apr 23, 2012)

What bothers me are the folks who get the loans and schoarlships and go back to their old high school job after graduating, depriving someone who could have used the opportunity in the first place.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 23, 2012)

I knew a girl who was a dang super-genius when when was a kid that got a Masters or PhD in Ancient American Indian Studies.

She was cute, so maybe she was planning on marrying well.


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## Supe (Apr 23, 2012)

Maybe there was a boom in non-profit museum curator positions at the time?


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## Chucktown PE (Apr 23, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> In all seriousness I don't care what other people choose to major in, if they're paying for it themselves. What burns me is when people take out government loans to get useless degrees, then default on those loans and burden the rest of us when they can't get a decent job.


The good news is that they can't default on those loans. Federally guaranteed student loans are not bankruptable or dischargable. It's similar to IRS debt as far as the consequences for not paying it.


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## cdcengineer (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah - a creative writing degree would not have flown with my Dad and older brother when i was choosing my major. I remember the old man saying something like, "You're not taking archaeology, it might be a fun and interesting job, but only rich kids get to play in the dirt. You gotta get a useful degree where you can get a job".

What he meant was, you gotta get a job and get out on your own. I was already living on my own at the time, but he never wanted me coming back.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 23, 2012)

cdcengineer said:


> ...it might be a fun and interesting job, but only rich kids get to play in the dirt.


Does that mean I'm rich since I get to play in the dirt (construction management)?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 23, 2012)

IIRC, wasn't there a member here on eb.com who seemed to think all degrees were useless except his own?


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 23, 2012)

cdcengineer said:


> Yeah - a creative writing degree would not have flown with my Dad and older brother when i was choosing my major.


I thought about going in to advertising. I was advised by dad that i better get serious about picking a real major.


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## csb (Apr 23, 2012)

I nearly quit engineering to try marketing, but luckily my schedule filled up before I could take that class. I later got an MBA, but remain grateful I got the engineering degree.


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## Chucktown PE (Apr 23, 2012)

My wife was a marketing major in college. She found a good job after school but it seemed like a very easy major to me with very fluffy concepts. I always wondered what was so hard about it.


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## snickerd3 (Apr 23, 2012)

or there are those that have decent degrees and let them become useless. My BIL's wife went to a private college to get a teaching degree, music teacher, even though she couldn't play the piano...yet she never left working for the photo department at osco other than a year working as an assisstant at a daycare center. she never even looked for a music teacher position. Never used her expensive education, but let my BIL pay her student loan debt.

another example...a friend from college graduated with ChemE degree and didn't want to relocate to find a job...he still works at walmart...10 yrs later.


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## Road Guy (Apr 23, 2012)

My wife's cousin went to Harvard, majored in archeology....

None the less she received dozens of six figure job offers (none of them with Indiana jones) but IBM, Microsoft, top shelf firms who for some reason like to hire the Harvard types.... While at a family function my father in law (life long big wheel at Gold Kist, he managed millions in dead chickens basically) overheard the new Harvard grad boasting of her job offers but said that she wasn't going to sell her soul to corporate America.. My FIL, the career businessman, the kind that didn't Expense mileage, meals while traveling, went to worl early, stayed late, weekends, ect.. ..leaned over to her and said "you may not like corporate America but who do you think pays for all those archeology digs?"

The look on her face was.... Priceless...

She worked at a SAT test prep place for a while, helping other 9 year olds learn to take the sat at an early age...

Her parents worked themselves to death almost literally to pay for her degree. She was living in a one room apartment with a lot of cats....her mom became a beer distributor, and ended up owning several medium size beer distributors in Texas, she has beer in trader joes, Costco (I dont know the names of them) but she basically handed the business over to her daughter to run, and yeepppp.. She ran it into the dirt, said it was to hard, occupied too much of her time..pissed off her moms contact with Costco and almost lost the ability to sell beer there...

Just fuckin ludicrous... Can you imagine how many times you have to bug someone to walk in off the street and get fucking Costco to sell your beer?

While her education level is higher than your average creative writer, I think she has a lot in common with the average bachelor of arts degree owner.. Success comes before work, only in the dictionary....


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## YMZ PE (Apr 24, 2012)

^^ While I would like to feel bad for her parents, they're probably a big part of why she's as dysfunctional as she sounds.


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## cdcengineer (Apr 24, 2012)

^ RG, that's Awesome..


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## wilheldp_PE (Apr 24, 2012)

I think coming from a middle class family is the butter zone for future success. In poorer households, the parents usually don't give a shit about education or success for their children, so they breed lazy, welfare queens. In richer households, the children are spoiled rotten, handed high-priced education on a silver platter, and they expect success without work (a la RG's example above). Of course, these are broad generalizations with scores of exceptions, but I'd wager that it's accurate more often than not.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 24, 2012)

I don't know, wil. My Dad came from a poor family, and he raised a cow to pay for college. He's the only one who finished college, but they've all (two brothers and two sisters) been extremely successful, mostly in the finance world.

Then again, that was the fifties.

Now, a vast majority of people, across the economic spectrum, don't care about education. They expect stuff to be handed to them. Witness RGs story. Witness generational welfare.

Oh, well. American idol is on.


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## Road Guy (Apr 24, 2012)

Ive tried to tell her mom (my wifes Aunt) that I would be happy to take over their business for them!

Her dad was a pilot in Vietnam, flew B-52's, then flew for southwest for years, they werent "fatty rich" but were upple middle class...

I am just worried about the same thing in my kids as well.. my parents were teachers in avery rural county in Georgia, I think after 30 years my mom retired making $38K, Dad a little higher but not much.. we werent dirt poor but for example when I was in middle school my dad still drove a 60's VW Van (with star wars curtains).. it always made me work harder at whatever I was doing, but if I hadnt joined the army out of high school I would have probably been a typical college fuck up at the University of Georgia (where i was headed before I decided to kill people for a living)

I try and make my kids mow the grass, do chores around the house, there good with that as long as they get a little coin in exchange, but I dont see much "desire" to maybe mow the grass and go back and look for strips of grass that were missed.....its like they have no problem doing the work, but dont have much internal motivation to do it "well"...


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## Supe (Apr 24, 2012)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I think coming from a middle class family is the butter zone for future success. In poorer households, the parents usually don't give a shit about education or success for their children, so they breed lazy, welfare queens. In richer households, the children are spoiled rotten, handed high-priced education on a silver platter, and they expect success without work (a la RG's example above). Of course, these are broad generalizations with scores of exceptions, but I'd wager that it's accurate more often than not.


Depends on how you measure success. Financially, I'm not too sure. In terms of being a productive member of society, I'm inclined to agree.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Road Guy said:


> I try and make my kids mow the grass, do chores around the house, there good with that as long as they get a little coin in exchange, but I dont see much "desire" to maybe mow the grass and go back and look for strips of grass that were missed.....its like they have no problem doing the work, but dont have much internal motivation to do it "well"...


I read this in an old Reder's Digest back in the seventies. I think it came from a mid-sixties edition. made an impression on me, but not what they wanted, as I fall squarely in the 'good enough is done' category.

http://emp.byui.edu/SmithS/GradingTheCountessandtheImpossible.htm


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## Chucktown PE (Apr 24, 2012)

I came from a middle class family. My dad is a veterinarian and owns his own practice, so I learned a lot about running a business from him. While his business isn't huge, he makes a very nice income and manages it meticulously. My mom stayed home with the kids. My parents paid for my college with the caveat that I make A's and B's, which I did, as did my brothers. Of all the people we grew up with, my siblings and I are a very rare case in that we all worked in high school, did well in high school and college, and are living independent, self sufficient life styles. My youngest brother is finishing his last year of college (chemical engineering) and is planning on going to medical school so I can't say that he's independent yet, but I suspect he will be. Most of my parents' friends have at least one kid that's a total f-up, some times all of their kids are f-ups. A lot of them are 28, still living at home, got a worthless degree from an overpriced private school, and have no plans for the future. It baffles me how these people can get out of bed every morning.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 24, 2012)

My dad knows some real horror stories about some of his friends' kids. One father's day he almost broke into tears telling us how glad he was that he raised two kids that didn't ask for money or return home to live.

I've seen plenty of college educated kids around here bleeding their parents dry.


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## Chucktown PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> My dad knows some real horror stories about some of his friends' kids. One father's day he almost broke into tears telling us how glad he was that he raised two kids that didn't ask for money or return home to live.
> 
> I've seen plenty of college educated kids around here bleeding their parents dry.


My parents' financial advisers are constantly telling them that raising self sufficient kids is the best thing they could have done for their financial future.


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## Road Guy (Apr 24, 2012)

ive got two neighbors whose kids have been to college, but didnt finish, there at least 24 or 25 now, living at home and working half the time.. one of their parents told me they are going to sell there house and move into one of those 55 and older communities so there kids wont be able to stay with them anymore... I just dont want to be in that position! the econom aint the greatest in the world, but I just cant imagine why you wouldnt even try and go back to college and finish, or decide upon some full time retail job or something. the thought of being 25 and living in the same room as when I was in high school would just cause me some major emberassment...

I started working fast food jobs at 15, I want my kids to do the same, I think it gives them an eye into the world, i remember being a teenager and there were also people workign their full time that had kids and were trying to get by on $4. hour (min wage at the time)


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## csb (Apr 24, 2012)

I've said a job in food service provides two things:

1. Respect for higher education.

2. Respect for people who are serving you food.


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## Flyer_PE (Apr 24, 2012)

I didn't have a paying job until I was in my freshman year of college. I worked on my uncle's farm every summer from age 8 and stayed there full time through the end of high school. The pay was pretty much food and shelter but I think I gained an awful lot in the work ethic department. The idea of moving back in with my parents after college never even occurred to me. In my mind, that would have made the investment in my education a total failure.


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## Ble_PE (Apr 24, 2012)

^The same can be said for jobs in retail as well. I've always said that people should have to work in a customer service position at some point. It will make you think twice about getting pissed off at the cashier when something doesn't ring up the right price, etc.


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## YMZ PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Chucktown PE said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > My dad knows some real horror stories about some of his friends' kids. One father's day he almost broke into tears telling us how glad he was that he raised two kids that didn't ask for money or return home to live.
> ...


Problem is, too many parents don't know how to set boundaries or standards, or are unwilling to. I blame the "self-esteem" movement of the 70s. It gave people an excuse to opt out of the tough parts of parenting.

My brother has ADHD and dyslexia and was constantly flunking, but my tough immigrant parents spent tens of thousands of dollars pushing him through private schools and never gave him an out. Now he's making fatty money in IT and does a great job managing it. Meanwhile my parents' friends' kids, who are older than I am and have expensive degrees, live at home and use their retired parents' credit cards to buy gas. They were spoiled brats when we were kids and they're no better now.


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## YMZ PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Major Highway said:


> In some cases, sure the parents probably are to blame, but not in all and a generalized statement like the one you made is not really fair or accurate.


 I didn't mean to generalize - I just meant RG's wife's cousin based on his description. It seemed like although she kept making poor choices, her parents sacrificed a lot for her without asking anything in return. But I really don't know the whole story so it was unfair to assume.
*Edit* For being so opinionated, I'm probably going to be eating humble pie with my own kids when they're grown. =P


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 24, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> Chucktown PE said:
> 
> 
> > Capt Worley PE said:
> ...


Probably. I first became aware of it in the late seventies watching the interactions between parents and kids slightly younger than me. I remember thinking, "My mom would have my azz for that.."


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## cdcengineer (Apr 24, 2012)

Major Highway said:


> So, that being said, how could one son from the house on the left be doing good and the other son from the same family, given the same opportunities get a useless degree, get in legal trouble, and be living at home? You can't really blame that on the parents (well, maybe allowing him to live at home, but not his choices). And the family on the right side pretty much giving their kid the same opportunities as the other house, and their kid makes a good choice.
> 
> In some cases, sure the parents probably are to blame, but not in all and a generalized statement like the one you made is not really fair or accurate.


They don't call it dope for nothing.


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## cdcengineer (Apr 24, 2012)

^ Agreed. There's no way to control kids. I think / hope that it's just a matter of teaching / drilling / driving the right ideas into their heads and as they face choices (and make bad ones), that ultimately they know the difference between good and bad or right and wrong and end up making the best decisions for them.

It's only the parents fault if they don't try and supply the tools for success (be that knowledge, structure, education, morals, etc.). I lived on the edge as did my brothers for years. But ultimately we all turned out OK. We have jobs, homes, families and speaking for myself, happiness. My Dad was an SOB. We all grew up determined to get out of the house. As soon as I made it out, I realized how much I loved and respected him.

I got to hand it to my parents, they did something right. I just wish i could've extracted some of his parenting skills and knowledge before he was gone. I'll teach my kids the only way I know how. Through what I know and think, assuming it is how I was trained. They will shovel, mow, empty DW, take out trash and anything else i feel they are capable of. They will learn that if they want something, they will have to earn it. There's no more satisfaction than earning something. That's a lesson I remember getting and it's my guess that too many kids now with their god given iphones can't comprehend.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 24, 2012)

And to a certain extent, sometimes good decisions and good intentions just don't turn out the way they should. People get laid off and struggle with rebounding, some can be "sabotaged" by friends/coworkers, etc.

Even the best poker players lose with pocket aces sometimes...


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## YMZ PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Major Highway said:


> I caveat this by saying, there are many, many parents who do in fact contribute to the downfall of their children, I do not deny this. I am simply trying to call attention to the fact that it isn't always the case.


I think most of us agree with this. If it's any encouragement for you, Major Highway, I have family and friends whose children have autism, and while there is certainly a huge spectrum of severity, there's a noticeable difference in behavior and decision-making between the kids being raised by parents who are doing everything they can to provide consistency and discipline, and those who are unable to due to difficult life circumstances. You do the best you possibly can for your son, and I hope it continues to yield fruit.


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## wilheldp_PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Chucktown PE said:


> I came from a middle class family. My dad is a veterinarian and owns his own practice, so I learned a lot about running a business from him. While his business isn't huge, he makes a very nice income and manages it meticulously. My mom stayed home with the kids. My parents paid for my college with the caveat that I make A's and B's, which I did, as did my brothers. Of all the people we grew up with, my siblings and I are a very rare case in that we all worked in high school, did well in high school and college, and are living independent, self sufficient life styles. My youngest brother is finishing his last year of college (chemical engineering) and is planning on going to medical school so I can't say that he's independent yet, but I suspect he will be. Most of my parents' friends have at least one kid that's a total f-up, some times all of their kids are f-ups. A lot of them are 28, still living at home, got a worthless degree from an overpriced private school, and have no plans for the future. It baffles me how these people can get out of bed every morning.


My parents had a similar deal with me. They paid for my undergraduate degree and my first car and told me that I was on my own after that. My sister is a lawyer and I'm an engineer. If they had given us free reign to "find ourselves" in college, one or both of us might be living at home. A perfect example is a guy I went to HS with. He had a similar financial situation to me growing up, but he never applied himself at school. If he had spent 1/4 of the time he spent trying to get grades changed on actually doing homework, he would have done fine in school. His parents sent him to a private school where he proceeded to party for 2 semesters and flunk out. He's still a wart on the ass of society, and takes jobs where his parents indirectly support him (i.e., he was a waiter at a local mexican restaurant where his parents would frequently eat and tip him $100+. He now sells satellite TV service, and his parents were his first customers.) He's very self conscious of his stupid decisions in life, and whenever I hang out with him, he makes a big deal about how he's "not stupid, he just never put in the work at school." Well, if you are intelligent enough to do the work, but don't do it, that's still pretty damn stupid.

In his case, I blame his parents for not forcing him to do his homework every night (like my parents did) or make him get a useful college degree or refuse to pay for the education.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 24, 2012)

Saddest thing I ever saw was when a bunch of us that used to work together at a pool got together for a fifteen year 'reunion.' Everybody had a successful career: prosecutor, engineer, business owner, etc

Except one guy who pretty much partied his way through the eighties. He lugged bounce castles around and set them up. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I really got a sad vibe off of him when we were all talking about what we were up to, career-wise.


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## snickerd3 (Apr 24, 2012)

Flyer_PE said:


> I didn't have a paying job until I was in my freshman year of college. I worked on my uncle's farm every summer from age 8 and stayed there full time through the end of high school. The pay was pretty much food and shelter but I think I gained an awful lot in the work ethic department. *The idea of moving back in with my parents after college never even occurred to me. In my mind, that would have made the investment in my education a t*otal failure.


THis



Ble_PE said:


> ^The same can be said for jobs in retail as well. I've always said that people should have to work in a customer service position at some point. It will make you think twice about getting pissed off at the cashier when something doesn't ring up the right price, etc.


this. I worked at toyrsus starting at 15 through high school and some college breaks...


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## engineergurl (Apr 24, 2012)

In all reality my degrees are pretty useless... if I chose for them to be. But because I have always been open to what employment comes my way, I have been able to expand on that "useless" major and build a semi-career from it. Granted, I didn't major in creative writing, but Forest Ecosystems Management was probably not the best choice either.


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## cdcengineer (Apr 24, 2012)

Wil - parents can't force kids to do homework. They force that the TV is off or video games, etc.. But what parents can do is to try and instill the competitive drive and desire to succeed. I speak from my experience only, and maybe some of you can back me up, I had the desire to get good grades. School came easy to me, and that's probably partially due to the fact that I attended a flunky high school. But I enjoyed and derived satisfaction from being viewed as a flunky yet blowing test scores out of the water. It's like I had something to prove to everyone. I wanted to out perform at my job which was school.

Now-a-days all the kids are winners just for showing up - at least that's what I hear about on the news (my son is too young yet to participate so I have no direct experience). How about we teach American kids that winning is important and fun and that competition is good and promotes advancement of all kinds. There has to losers to have winners. And somebody's kids have to dig ditches and / or wash dishes. It's OK to be second or last, but being 1st provides opportunity for success. The easiest way to succeed is to try. Or they can always sit back and with a ton of luck, hope to be pro - athletes, musicians, whatevers - (insert pipe dream here).


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## YMZ PE (Apr 24, 2012)

cdcengineer said:


> Wil - parents can't force kids to do homework. They force that the TV is off or video games, etc.. But what parents can do is to try and instill the competitive drive and desire to succeed.


This. But the hard part for parents is figuring out _how_ to instill the desire to succeed (in a healthy way). I don't know if chores or working a job would do it if the kid isn't naturally competitive.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 24, 2012)

My son developed alot of his competitive drive through video games... :true:


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## EM_PS (Apr 24, 2012)

My brother graduated w/ a degree in communications (paid for by the 'rents). Upon graduation, he traveled down to Atlanta w/ a 4-person band to "break" into the music biz. That mercifully lasted only a year - he now works for a major office furniture manufacturer (hi-lo operator) &amp; is actually doing just fine.

A friend of mine who served in Iraq got a surveying engineering degree paid for by the Army. Upon graduation, he found the recession had pretty much killed all surveying opps in MI anyways. He went to work for a directional drilling company and last I heard was making over 250K / yr, though arguably, he has no life.

As parents, you try to give all the tools you can to your kids so that they can succeed....but they actually have to believe that they _can_ succeed, whatever path they choose. It can't just be "I completed 'A', so now 'B' happens. _You / They_ pretty much have to make 'B' happen.


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## envirotex (Apr 24, 2012)

engineergurl said:


> In all reality my degrees are pretty useless... if I chose for them to be. But because I have always been open to what employment comes my way, I have been able to expand on that "useless" major and build a semi-career from it. Granted, I didn't major in creative writing, but Forest Ecosystems Management was probably not the best choice either.


Yep. My husband has an art degree. He is a general contractor and makes decent $ from that, but people seek him out for his his attention to detail and iron work designs...Most people would say that his degree is useless, but in reality it gives him an advantage because he received design training in school that most of his competitors didn't. BUT, in the end, it's really about taking advantage of what you can do well, not about your degree.


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## engineergurl (Apr 25, 2012)

envirotex said:


> engineergurl said:
> 
> 
> > In all reality my degrees are pretty useless... if I chose for them to be. But because I have always been open to what employment comes my way, I have been able to expand on that "useless" major and build a semi-career from it. Granted, I didn't major in creative writing, but Forest Ecosystems Management was probably not the best choice either.
> ...


my little two year engineering technology degree balances me out so that I really am a perfect NEPA person. I understand construction, I know the processes so I tend to be the glue that binds our department with progress.... or at least that is what I like to think... most of the people here don't know a lick about project management, how to read plans, or the information about other impacts, they just get a request for analysis and focus on the environmental impacts for their section and that is that. I'm the person that bounces around saying.... well, logically... we can bury a cultural site even further, and the plans show this is a fill area so we really should APPROVE this not say no....


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## humner (Apr 25, 2012)

My neice has a degree in Museum Curator. I remember her telling me that her college counselor raved about the position. I responded that I would do my own research if I were her. She works at a clothing store in the mall after 5 years of college.


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## YMZ PE (Apr 25, 2012)

Speaking of considering a major based on what an authority figure says, when I was a senior in high school my mom chewed me out for choosing to study engineering instead of medicine. She told me I was going to end up homeless. That still cracks me up, especially since I bought a house when I was 24.


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## wilheldp_PE (Apr 25, 2012)

To those with success stories for people with seemingly useless degrees...do you think the degree either helped that person with knowledge gained or doors opened by having the degree? Or are those people just self-motivators that didn't have the book smarts or ambition to get a useful degree in college? Wouldn't they be just as successful with a high school diploma or vocational degree?


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## engineergurl (Apr 25, 2012)

wilheldp_PE said:


> To those with success stories for people with seemingly useless degrees...do you think the degree either helped that person with knowledge gained or doors opened by having the degree? Or are those people just self-motivators that didn't have the book smarts or ambition to get a useful degree in college? Wouldn't they be just as successful with a high school diploma or vocational degree?


No I wouldn't be as successful. I learned my motivation while in college getting that useless degree. I was always a B-student, just enough to get by, more focused on my job and sports in high school. Not having to go to the community college like nearly everyone else in my class made me realize that if I put a little extra effort, I may actually get somewhere. My first degree was technically a vocational degree (Forest Technology), and then I transferred to the 4 year school and realized, I picked a really stupid major... I finished because I had started it and was pretty far into it.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 25, 2012)

I would also argue that degrees are worth what you do with them. My wife's first degree was in Urban Planning. With that degree, she ended up working for Home Depot in the customer service desk. In this case, her degree was truly worthless. 

However, a couple years later, she used her degree to get accepted into an accelerated nursing program at a local university. The program was opened up to anyone with a bachelor's degree, and after 10 months of classes &amp; clinicals, she earned a 2nd bachelor's degree (Nursing). So in this case, her degree was NOT worthless, as without it she wouldn't have been able to get into the program. If she had to go back to a regular BSN program at any other university, she would be graduating this spring instead of already celebrating her 3 yr anniversary at her current job. She is already looking into master's programs for next year so she can climb the ladder into the management ranks...


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## MGX (Apr 25, 2012)

I always play Devil's Advocate with this argument. Some say colleges and universities are vo techs for smart people; that is people enroll to gain marketable skills. Personally I think the role of the colleges and universitites is to educate people.

If one wants to be formally educated they should attend a university. That seems to be the point IMO. I did study engineering not just because the skills are marketable but because it is something I enjoy and find interesting.

Some people can study things others find dumb but the importance of education is that anyone can learn lots of skills while at university. It seems that these skills are what is marketable, not just the title of the degree.


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## envirotex (Apr 25, 2012)

wilheldp_PE said:


> To those with success stories for people with seemingly useless degrees...do you think the degree either helped that person with knowledge gained or doors opened by having the degree? Or are those people just self-motivators that didn't have the book smarts or ambition to get a useful degree in college? Wouldn't they be just as successful with a high school diploma or vocational degree?


In my husband's case, it has helped just to be able to check the box that says you have a college degree...I think it garners a little more respect from his clients. Plus, he can also say that he is an "artist".


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 25, 2012)

However, if one wants to drop $20k a year to be "educated", wouldn't it also be in their best interest to do so with some kind of long-term financial plan (ie. job) in place?


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## Dexman PE PMP (Apr 25, 2012)

envirotex said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > To those with success stories for people with seemingly useless degrees...do you think the degree either helped that person with knowledge gained or doors opened by having the degree? Or are those people just self-motivators that didn't have the book smarts or ambition to get a useful degree in college? Wouldn't they be just as successful with a high school diploma or vocational degree?
> ...


Additionally, some companies adjust their baseline for pay based on whether you have a degree or not. I know my wife gets an extra $1-2 per hour just because she has a second BS degree, despite the fact that said degree is "worthless".

It's fairly common for big box stores (namely Walmart), to reject applicants with degrees for the sole reason that their company policy is to pay college grads more.


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## cdcengineer (Apr 25, 2012)

Obtaining a degree can teach a person how to learn. For me at least - it wasn't what I was learning (although the fundamental engineering was there), it was more how to continue life long learning.


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## EM_PS (Apr 25, 2012)

wilheldp_PE said:


> To those with success stories for people with seemingly useless degrees...do you think the degree either helped that person with knowledge gained or doors opened by having the degree? Wouldn't they be just as successful with a high school diploma or vocational degree?


I think in the case of my brother, the degree did nothing, and he'd be just as far w/out any college. For my buddy, the degree def helped, as did 4 yrs in Uncle Sam's Army.


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## envirotex (Apr 25, 2012)

Dexman PE said:


> However, if one wants to drop $20k a year to be "educated", wouldn't it also be in their best interest to do so with some kind of long-term financial plan (ie. job) in place?


Except, my husband's degree cost only $4000/year...subsidized public universities in Texas. (See my post about my ridiculous property taxes). Well worth the money.


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## Flyer_PE (Apr 26, 2012)

Cost is a big part of it. A college degree is an investment. If you are borrowing money to make that investment, you had better have a good idea of just how much you will be earning in relation to how much you will owe. There are a lot of kids/parents spending a lot of money for negligible returns on the investment.


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## wilheldp_PE (Apr 26, 2012)

Flyer_PE said:


> There are a lot of kids/parents spending a lot of money for negligible returns on the investment.


Their return on investment is being able to tell their other snobby friends that their kid went to Haaavaad.


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## kevo_55 (Apr 26, 2012)

Flyer_PE said:


> Cost is a big part of it. A college degree is an investment. If you are borrowing money to make that investment, you had better have a good idea of just how much you will be earning in relation to how much you will owe. There are a lot of kids/parents spending a lot of money for negligible returns on the investment.


Well said. :thumbs:


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## Chucktown PE (Apr 26, 2012)

Along those lines, now we have this shit:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/47171658

We bailed out the worthless banks and the worthless auto manufacturers, now it's time to bail out a bunch of stupid kids who borrowed money for overpriced educations and can't pay it back.

Why is this my f-ing problem?


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## Master slacker (Apr 26, 2012)

Sh*t, if Uncle Sam is going the way of bailing us out of our student loans, you bet your ass I'm going to try. This may be the one time I get any benefit from the countless dollars the gubment pulled from my paycheck.


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## Supe (Apr 26, 2012)

I don't have a problem with capping interest rates on student loans, but maybe if they spent more time looking for a f*cking job rather than petitioning for free money, they wouldn't have a problem to begin with.


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## wilheldp_PE (Apr 26, 2012)

Supe said:


> I don't have a problem with capping interest rates on student loans, but maybe if they spent more time looking for a f*cking job rather than petitioning for free money, they wouldn't have a problem to begin with.


After seeing the list of demands from the Occupy Wall Street movement, do you really have any faith that this is possible?


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## Chucktown PE (Apr 26, 2012)

This video is getting a lot of press now. Not sure it belongs in this topic but it's powerful nonetheless.


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## snickerd3 (Apr 26, 2012)

Around here none of us really do anything related to our degrees, they like to say they hired us because college taught us how to think logically/solve problems, etc... in otherwords our ability/willingness to learn. WHich is true those of us with degrees use our brain to work, those without degrees push a cart or sort mail...mindless busy work


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## engineergurl (Apr 26, 2012)

snickerd3 said:


> Around here none of us really do anything related to our degrees, they like to say they hired us because college taught us how to think logically/solve problems, etc... in otherwords our ability/willingness to learn. WHich is true those of us with degrees use our brain to work, those without degrees push a cart or sort mail...mindless busy work


I have actually heard this about my useless degree before. It really hasn't been all that useless, but the point is that a lot of my college buddies ARE sitting at home not doing anything somewhat related or working minimum wage jobs.


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## Supe (Apr 26, 2012)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Supe said:
> 
> 
> > I don't have a problem with capping interest rates on student loans, but maybe if they spent more time looking for a f*cking job rather than petitioning for free money, they wouldn't have a problem to begin with.
> ...


I have as much faith now as when I saw the same idiots parading around Charlotte (including the ones who pulled their kids out of school to stand on the sidewalk and protest) - none whatsoever.


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## MGX (Apr 28, 2012)

Dexman PE said:


> However, if one wants to drop $20k a year to be "educated", wouldn't it also be in their best interest to do so with some kind of long-term financial plan (ie. job) in place?


Personally I can't fathom the lack of foresight of studying something that doesn't lead to a productive job while incurring tens of thousands of dollars in debt. If your program requires you to be in debt it should be worth the risk you take obviously. I want to avoid painting with a broad brush those who study the humanities as being drains on the system.

Right out of high school I took classes that were interesting until I woke up and decided to pursue engineering. I didn't take out any loans for my dicking around and it is clearly wrong to assume others took the same action.


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## Jayman_PE (Apr 28, 2012)

My wife's cousin's daughter (aka Lazy) is about 20, maybe 21. Lazy not only does not have her high school diploma, she does not have a drivers license and works odd jobs when she feels like it. So what's going on you ask? Her parents make excuses for her at every turn. For example, the last time Lazy failed her drivers exam, it really wasn't her fault, her mom said, because the examiner was mean. Lazy's mom told us recently that Lazy landed a "management" job at a local sporting good store. My b.s. meter redlined on this one, because Lazy knows nothing about anything with the word sport (or insert anything meaningful) in it. Apparently Lazy was asked to work a Saturday and said no. And the parents stand behind her, yet complain they have no money and are running out of unemployment.

Smile - fellow taxpayers. Smile, and just keep on working to support this nonsense. This chronic behavior will slowly sink our country until we elect individuals with practical experience, hard chargers who can read and discern, and eliminate this leech syndrome from our burdens.

Jason


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## Jayman_PE (Apr 28, 2012)

engineergurl said:


> snickerd3 said:
> 
> 
> > Around here none of us really do anything related to our degrees, they like to say they hired us because college taught us how to think logically/solve problems, etc... in otherwords our ability/willingness to learn. WHich is true those of us with degrees use our brain to work, those without degrees push a cart or sort mail...mindless busy work
> ...


Engurl,

You are precisely right. It doesn't matter so much what your degree is, except it should have "legs" to it, like yours in that someone who is highly motivated, like you appear to be, can move onward and upward. Your degree enables you see things from a different perspective, and that is priceless.

Thanks for sharing.

Jason


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 30, 2012)

A friend of mine has a niece that is/was smoking hot, and had two VERY successful parents. She barely made it through high school, became a waitress, and hooked up with every ne'er do well she came across. Ended up an addict and did some prison time for possession or dealing.

Her parents are still, to this day, making excuses for her, but the general concensus among all her family members, absent her parents, of course, is that her parents pretty much dropped the ball in raising her.


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## cdcengineer (Apr 30, 2012)

Don't let money raise your kids.

What's a ne'er?


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## YMZ PE (Apr 30, 2012)

You ne'er know. A close relative was in a similar situation, had anger and drugs issues, didn't get anywhere in life because they were always getting into trouble. We only found out recently they were molested as a child - their parents didn't even know, only had suspicions that were never confirmed. They finally got their life together but only after extensive therapy.

Sorry that was a bummer, but just saying there might be more to it.


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## Lumber Jim (Nov 28, 2012)

I know this thread died about 7 months ago but I find it extremely interesting after having the opportunity to read it now and have a great deal of respect for the people that posted comments. The logic here, in my opinion, is top notch! Therfore, I would like to get your opinion on a situation that I have recently been made aware of. I know this new college grad (this past May) that earned his Bach Sci engineering degree. Excellent GPA at graduation and had very good grades throughout college. Completed school in four years (took me 6... but thats a story in itself) and has held jobs prior to and through school that required a work ethic (food service first and then construction). He has had a few interviews since May but has not landed anything yet. I have even tried to steer him to some opportunities that I know exist but for some reason he has not followed up and has now announced that he's is going to Dex's neighborhood to "manage" a ski hill with his buddy for $9.50 an hour. This is a seasonal position that won't even cover his student loans that have recently started requiring payment. No plan for housing, how he'll pay to get out there, he's just going to "wing" it. I'm not even sure he can ski...

My question: How does, what I have alway thought, a good degree like engineering become a useless degree? Especially for some one that seems to have everything going for them. I can honestly say that his situation is much better than mine was and things have worked out well for me...

I'm sure he likes engineering and had some "ideal" jobs not work out for him but I know there are similar jobs that would get him started and comfortably pay the bills. His parent have helped in the past but don't have the means to support the guy so that option is out. What gives? :dunno:


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 28, 2012)

Lazy bum would be my first guess.

Maybe trying to live on $9.50/hr will help motivate him.


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## snickerd3 (Nov 28, 2012)

No offense to the friend, but it sounds like one of a couple things...he is discourged because the job offers didn't come pouring in, he wants the job handed to him on a silver platter with little work on his part or he has the dream job pictured in his head and he isn't willing to do anything else until he finds it...even if it means bumming it for awhile.

He might just have so many unrealistic expectations that is is prohibiting him from finding a job. Like my friend that didn't want to relocate.


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## MA_PE (Nov 28, 2012)

Lumber Jim said:


> he's is going to Dex's neighborhood to "manage" a ski hill with his buddy for $9.50 an hour. This is a seasonal position that won't even cover his student loans that have recently started requiring payment. No plan for housing, how he'll pay to get out there, he's just going to "wing" it.





> His parent have helped in the past but don't have the means to support the guy


These two statements tell me that (just like the country) he's headed for a financial cliff. You cannot spend money that you don't have and you cannot simply ignore financial obligations without some sort of consequences. Good luck to him.



> My question: How does, what I have alway thought, a good degree like engineering become a useless degree? Especially for some one that seems to have everything going for them. I can honestly say that his situation is much better than mine was and things have worked out well for me...
> I'm sure he likes engineering and had some "ideal" jobs not work out for him but I know there are similar jobs that would get him started and comfortably pay the bills. so that option is out. What gives? :dunno:


I'm confused by this statement. What do you mean by "that option is out"? Seems in this case the engineering degree is only useless because your friend is choosing not to use it, therfore,rendering it "useless" (or a waste of time) for his personal situation. With luck it will be there to fall back on when his current "plan" fails.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 28, 2012)

Too many people today come straight out of college expecting a salary that requires 5-10 years experience to attain. They have this false belief that they can get this salary, so they turn down anything less.


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## YMZ PE (Nov 28, 2012)

I really doubt he's a "lazy bum" or feels entitled, considering how hard he worked through school.

It could be insecurity about what he has to offer after being rejected a few times. Or it could be doubt about whether he wants to work an 8-5 the rest of his life (this mindset is a common affliction in my generation).

Insecurity and doubt can be paralyzing to one's ambitions.


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## csb (Nov 28, 2012)

Knew a mechanical engineer who graduated with honors, TBP member, extra projects in 2002 and he could NOT find a job. Ended up working at Applebee's while he looked for other jobs. Knew another MechE who was in the same boat and built houses with his dad for a couple of years until a job opened up. Some engineering majors are harder to place than others.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 28, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> I really doubt he's a "lazy bum" or feels entitled, considering how hard he worked through school.


Lazy bum is kinda a default response. He probably isn't.

But, I've seen the entitlement mentality across the board in younger folks during my teaching time a few years ago. Pretty disenheartening.

On the other hand, I'd say a good 5% of my old students will probably be movers and shakers.



csb said:


> Some engineering majors are harder to place than others.


Especially if you want to stay in a certain area.


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## envirotex (Nov 28, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> ... doubt about whether he wants to work an 8-5 the rest of his life (this mindset is a common affliction in my generation).


This isn't a necessarily bad thing...if this is the reason, and he can meet his obligations (his loans), and he's happier than working in a cubicle, then why not?


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## EM_PS (Nov 28, 2012)

Lumber Jim said:


> He has had a few interviews since May but has not landed anything yet. I have even tried to steer him to some opportunities that I know exist but for some reason he has not followed up


He's not following up b/c for first time in his life he's charting his own course - zany &amp; reckless though it may be.



Lumber Jim said:


> My question: How does, what I have alway thought, a good degree like engineering become a useless degree?


Allowing certain degrees have better utility than others, any degree is only as useful as the recipient makes it to be. I wouldn't sweat too much on this friend, his degree will be just as good a year or two after graduation as it is now. 9 x out of 10 it'll come down to 'who he knows' anyways over 'what he knows'. Anyways, hopefully a year down the road he'll have some fire in his belly for something bigger.


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## Lumber Jim (Nov 28, 2012)

All Excellent comments! ( I'll do my best to respond...)

Capt - Not sure about the entitlement/Lazy statement but he might be used to things coming fairly easily. Passed the FE in school by studying way less than I did...

He's Mechanical and therefore, in my opinion, less constrained on the type of engineering that he could potentially get into.

snickered - he seems like the type that could get discouraged for not having things work out just right.

MA_PE - What I meant is that Bills + Income = negative total on the bottom line and his parent won't be able to bail him out (mixture of ability and willingness to do so...)

I see the consequences as bad but I don't think he sees them or he wouldn't even be consideringing relocating for $9.50/hr

Maybe the way that i'm thinking about this is wrong. The degree is not useless but he's change his direction to where he's definately not applying it to his benefit.

YMZ- I agree with "Insecurity and doubt can be paralyzing to one's ambitions" but I think he has the support group that should help him drudge onward and now that loan

payments are due his motivation should be elevated.

CSB- The applebees job could probably allow you to pay the bills if you lived at home and worked as many hours as you possible could with a dependance on tips coming in.

(tips being the risk that you are taking) While not ideal, this could be a workable solution.

The Ski hill manager gig won't even get his loans payed much less allow him to eat but I'm sure he will have lots of fun...

Envirotex- There is no way that this will work out for meeting his financial obligations. The math just doesn't add up.

EM_PS- I agree with the what you know vs. who you know. The "what you know" comes quickly and later from working in the field. The problem here is that he has the connections

to be sucessful but won't apply them. Maybe this is another one of those details for sucess that needs to be learned.

Final question: What should I tell the guy the next time that I see him - "When you find yourself starving, keep it to yourself cause I'm not driving to Colorado to pick your ass up!"	???


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## YMZ PE (Nov 28, 2012)

From talking with him, do you get the sense he's flippant about his decision? If so, a verbal bitch slap may be in order, but if it seems like there's more going on in his head, I'd just ask questions and withhold judgment until you get his perspective.


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## snickerd3 (Nov 28, 2012)

if you feel obligated to say anything, maybe give him the name of some technical/professional staffing agencies like manpower professional or kelly services...even their min $per hr is likely to be better than the ski hill.


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## MA_PE (Nov 28, 2012)

you tell him "Good for you. Have fun". Some folks need to learn things on their own. Unless you feel some dire obligation, if he calls you to come and get him...just say "no can do". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

Edit: If he gets a place to stay in ski country, make sure you take a trip out there to stay with him and get some partying and free skiing in before the walls come crashing down.


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## EM_PS (Nov 28, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> From talking with him, do you get the sense he's flippant about his decision? If so, a verbal bitch slap may be in order,


I'd lean more towards a verbal donkey punch in this case



MA_PE said:


> you tell him "Good for you. Have fun". Some folks need to learn things on their own. Unless you feel some dire obligation, if he calls you to come and get him...just say "no can do". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
> 
> Edit: If he gets a place to stay in ski country, make sure you take a trip out there to stay with him and get some partying and free skiing in before the walls come crashing down.


^This - he's an adult w/ debt in his name; presumably, he'll find his way, like we all had to


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## cdcengineer (Nov 28, 2012)

MA_PE said:


> you tell him "Good for you. Have fun". Some folks need to learn things on their own. Unless you feel some dire obligation, if he calls you to come and get him...just say "no can do". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
> 
> Edit: If he gets a place to stay in ski country, make sure you take a trip out there to stay with him and get some partying and free skiing in before the walls come crashing down.


^ This!

There's nothing wrong with paddling your own canoe and living your life the eay you choose. He has his whole life to work, maybe now is his time to have some fun.

Consider this, you may only live once. You can never be young and crazy when you're 40 with children. There's a fine line between having money and no time, or having time but no money. He may be trying to find the balance between them.

FWIW, I followed a similar path and nearly 20 years later I have no regrets. Life is good. Live it!


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## Lumber Jim (Nov 28, 2012)

cdcengineer said:


> MA_PE said:
> 
> 
> > you tell him "Good for you. Have fun". Some folks need to learn things on their own. Unless you feel some dire obligation, if he calls you to come and get him...just say "no can do". You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
> ...


^This changes my perspective a bit. When I graduated, I had a wife and baby on the way (no regrets for me either). He's more free to do whatever he wants... But working on a ski hill with no life insurance or medical benefits? Zero chance of bringing in enough to pay the bills and feed yourself? This seems absolutely insane to me!

Oh well. I'll keep my mouth shut unless there is a hint of hesitancy. At which point I may go the "verbal donkey punch" route...

Thanks all!! I'm very impressed with the insight that you have from the short and poorly written statements that I have provided.


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## YMZ PE (Nov 28, 2012)

I think the one thing we can all agree on is that graduating with an engineering degree and taking a minimum wage job first thing out of school is still better than graduating with a liberal arts degree. Period.


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## Supe (Nov 29, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> I think the one thing we can all agree on is that graduating with an engineering degree and taking a minimum wage job first thing out of school is still better than graduating with a liberal arts degree. Period.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 29, 2012)

Lumber Jim said:


> He's more free to do whatever he wants... But working on a ski hill with no life insurance or medical benefits? Zero chance of bringing in enough to pay the bills and feed yourself? This seems absolutely insane to me!


That's his problem, not yours.

No sense borrowing other people's problems.



YMZ PE said:


> I think the one thing we can all agree on is that graduating with an engineering degree and taking a minimum wage job first thing out of school is still better than graduating with a liberal arts degree. Period.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Nov 29, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Lumber Jim said:
> 
> 
> > He's more free to do whatever he wants... But working on a ski hill with no life insurance or medical benefits? Zero chance of bringing in enough to pay the bills and feed yourself? This seems absolutely insane to me!
> ...


Until he ends up in the ER and can't pay his medical bills. Congrats America, your rates are now higher to cover it!!


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 29, 2012)

Dexman PE said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > Lumber Jim said:
> ...


I'm fine with that.


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## Slugger926 (Nov 30, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> I think the one thing we can all agree on is that graduating with an engineering degree and taking a minimum wage job first thing out of school is still better than graduating with a liberal arts degree. Period.


I did that coming out of undergrad, and it was an engineering job (basically at intern pay). After 6 months, I found something else with experience under my belt.

Now coming out of grad school, I wish it was easier to find someone that will take a chance on me. Now they look at me and say I am overqualified for the frontline jobs, and fear that I will leave after a year. Following the people they already hire on LinkedIN, it looks like most of them leave after a year anyway.


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## snickerd3 (Nov 30, 2012)

I think that says more about their work environment than the people they are hiring. Something isn't right if people are still looking


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## Exengineer (Feb 11, 2017)

Seems like over half of students in college would have been better off pursuing something else, perhaps vocational training, trades or technical institute.  Not everyone benefits from a university education.  Looks like most do not.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Feb 11, 2017)

Would be interesting to see the breakdown for that claim.  If your degree is in Liberal Arts or something equally useless then it probably shouldn't be counted.


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## P-E (Feb 11, 2017)

Had a roommate once who majored in East Asian studies.    He liked to party a lot.


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## Road Guy (Feb 11, 2017)




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## P-E (Feb 12, 2017)

This topic is troll-bate.


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## Road Guy (Feb 12, 2017)

Coincidentally my son received this in the mail (from some snowflake college in Michigan)

I can't believe someone would actually print this and mail it out (unless their target audience is people that have never left the parents basement)


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## Ramnares P.E. (Feb 12, 2017)

If I received that in the mail I'd just drop all aspirations for college and go work in Micky Ds.


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## Road Guy (Feb 13, 2017)

weve been getting some odd ones for sure, mostly the ones like these tend to be private colleges.

He is getting phone calls from CO School of Mines so I am hoping that is where he is headed! (they don't have any trying to be funny graphics like this though)


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