# Are federal workers overpaid



## picusld (Apr 7, 2011)

I saw this on Yahoo and thought that it was interesting.

My wife has a federal job (non engineering), so I am a bit conflicted. Her total compensation package is about 20k more than me and we are at about the same point in our careers.

There are also some other perks that are left out of the article that should be assigned a dollar value like amount of days you can work from home, no chance of being fired, all the paid training you could want and then some...

Are federal workers overpaid

Are federal workers paid too much or unfair targets in quest for budget cuts?

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Are federal employees overpaid?

Republican leaders in Congress think so, and they are calling for an overhaul of the entire federal pay system to help slash government spending.

Democrats and other defenders of the government work force say federal workers are actually underpaid compared with their private counterparts.

A closer look at the data shows that both sides have a point but that supporters of federal workers are a bit closer to reality. The debate has heated up since the GOP budget blueprint unveiled this week calls for federal pay "to be reformed to be in line with the private sector." It says average wages "far eclipse" those in the private industry.

At a congressional hearing last month, Rep. Dennis Ross, R-Fla., said the average federal worker earns $101,628 in total compensation -- including wages and benefits-- compared with $60,000 for the average private employee. He was citing data from the federal Office of Personnel Management.

"Our taxpayers can no longer be asked to foot the bill for these federal employees while watching their own salaries remain flat and their benefits erode," said Ross, chairman of the House Oversight subcommittee on the federal work force.

But federal employee advocates claim a straight-up comparison of average total compensation is misleading. A disproportionate number of federal employees are professionals, such as managers, lawyers, engineers and scientists. Over the years, the federal government has steadily outsourced lower-paying jobs to the private sector so that blue-collar workers cooking meals or working in mailrooms now make up just 10 percent of federal employees.

That argument is backed up by a 2002 study of the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office. It found that federal salaries for most professional and administrative jobs lagged well behind compensation offered in the private sector.

The CBO study concluded that the best way to measure the difference is to compare government jobs with those in the private sector that match the actual work performed. The CBO found that salaries for 85 percent of federal workers in professional and administrative jobs lagged their private sector counterparts by more than 20 percent.

Among lawyers, for example, the average pay in the federal government was about $127,500 a year in 2009, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. The average lawyer in the private sector earned $137,540. And the starting salary at large law firms in Washington, D.C. -- where most government lawyers work -- is $160,000, and can grow to hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, according to the National Association for Law Placement.

At the lower end of the pay scale, the CBO said 30 percent of federal employees in technical and clerical fields earned salaries above those doing comparable work in the private sector. But the differences were mostly within about 10 percent -- plus or minus -- of private levels.

The government does offer, on average, more generous benefits to workers than the private sector. OPM data shows the federal employees earned an average of $27,317 in pension and health benefits in 2010. That's more than double the average private sector benefits of $10,589, according to statistics from the federal Bureau of Economic Analysis.

The CBO report pointed to what it called a "long-standing concern" with the federal pay system -- it allows no variation in pay raises based on occupation. That means federal workers in professional and administrative jobs may get smaller pay increases than needed to match the private sector, while technical and clerical workers get higher raises than needed.

President Barack Obama is seeking a two-year federal pay freeze, but that's not enough for some Republicans. The GOP budget plan offered this week by House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan, R-Wis., would impose a five-year pay freeze on federal employees, cut the federal work force by 10 percent and increase employee contributions to retirement plans.

Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., chairman of the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, said he wants to see Obama's pay freeze include a ban on step increases -- automatic adjustments within pay grades that are part of the federal pay system.

OPM Director John Berry says eliminating step increases would hasten the departure of valuable federal employees for the private sector.

Asked about the prospect of federal employees losing their jobs in the push to curb government spending, House Speaker John Boehner of Ohio angered Democrats earlier this year when he said, "So be it."

"I don't want anyone to lose their job, whether they're a federal employee or not," Boehner said. "But come on, we're broke."


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## snickerd3 (Apr 7, 2011)

maybe if there weren't so many steps....i maxed out on my steps (state, not fed) after 3 years and I am still around.

some fed employees are over paid, most are not, but they have nice benefits!!!!!!!


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## Road Guy (Apr 7, 2011)

This is the preception:

In a recession they are over paid and in "good times" they are under-paid...


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 7, 2011)

I used to be a fed. First, the bennies weren't that great. Second, you start low, accelerate fast, then gradually get more.

In my case, I was making almost double my starting salary in three years. When I left in 95, I was making under 50K. Friends who still work there doing the same jobs now make close to 100K due to step increases, COL increases, and the working level going from GS12 to GS13.


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## Dark Knight (Apr 7, 2011)

If the Reps already knew that why they did not do a jack under their administration? On the other hand I am sure that the Dems will not be fighting for this if a Republican President was in the White House.

That is the name of the game. Politics, each one looking for their own benefit and best interest. It is entertaining though opcorn:


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## maryannette (Apr 7, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> In a recession they are over paid and in "good times" they are under-paid...



I think this hits the nail right on the head. I work in a Fed Govt Office. About 3 years ago, we had people wanting to come to work even if it was a pay cut from what they were making (when they had a job that WAS overpaid). We now have people looking to leave the government jobs to go to jobs that pay better or have the potential (incentives) to pay better.


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## SSmith (Apr 7, 2011)

I'm a Federal engineer. At 31, I make a little over $100k @ GS-13. But that's largely on the back of my PE, Masters, and Six Sigma Black Belt. Is that overcompensated? Either way: when the economy was at it's high point, I had contractors supporting me that did the same kinds of work with less experience and certs and no responsibility that made over twice what I make now. Great morale booster that was.


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## jeb6294 (Apr 11, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> This is the preception:
> In a recession they are over paid and in "good times" they are under-paid...


This is generally the way it works, however, as a Gov't worker I would definitely say that we are not overpaid. I think if you really compare apples to apples, i.e. job title/duties, experience, etc, then generally you are going to have a higher salary in private industry. There are some additional perks to being with the Gov't but the benefits sure aren't one of them if you ask me. I think I'm paying more for insurance now than I was when I was at a private A/E firm and the coverage isn't even as good.


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## Kephart P.E. (Apr 11, 2011)

I agree with most here yes and no.

BUT, they are easy targets because I think the % of overpaid in this sector greatly outpaced the underpaid because when a round of layoffs happen in the private sector the incompetent overpaid guy is the first to go ............this just doesn't happen too often in Government.

I am sick and tired of hearing about underpaid teachers, the average pay for teachers here in the NW is mid 50's ---which if I had all the time off and benefits they do I wouldn't complain so loudly.


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## picusld (Apr 11, 2011)

SSmith said:


> I'm a Federal engineer. At 31, I make a little over $100k @ GS-13. But that's largely on the back of my PE, Masters, and Six Sigma Black Belt. Is that overcompensated? Either way: when the economy was at it's high point, I had contractors supporting me that did the same kinds of work with less experience and certs and no responsibility that made over twice what I make now. Great morale booster that was.


With no chance of getting fired, 6 weeks vacation/sick time per year (that you don’t lose yearly if not used), something like 14 holidays, AWS days (think that is right term), pension, a 100% match on up to something like 10% on your TSP, 100% tuition coverage on a masters degree, most likely having your entire Six sig paid for and the time into it sponsored by the government, and if your a 13 making 100k I think that would constitute no overtime...

Based only on a vacation / sick and holiday schedule above you would have about 9 weeks off a year which equal about 1720 billable hours. That would mean that you would make about $58 per hour.

If you are representing that a contractor was making around $116 per hour...based on a standard private industry vacation, sick, and holiday schedule (10,5,7), that would equal about 1904 billable hours totaling around $220k per year pre tax (which the government will get 30% back anyway).

One of 2 things is going on...You are grossly miss informed or you are representing that a contractors billable rate is what he/she is actually paid, which is very rarely the case.

Either way, I think you are getting the better deal. I think that you would be hard pressed to find a 31 year old anywhere that makes over 100k in civil engineering (I think that is the translation to military engineering), good or bad economy. If you do hear something opening up in the Philly area, let me know. I have roughly the same qualifications as you and I am guessing that I am at least 5 yrs from breaking 100k.


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## picusld (Apr 11, 2011)

Kephart P.E. said:


> I agree with most here yes and no.
> BUT, they are easy targets because I think the % of overpaid in this sector greatly outpaced the underpaid because when a round of layoffs happen in the private sector the incompetent overpaid guy is the first to go ............this just doesn't happen too often in Government.
> 
> I am sick and tired of hearing about underpaid teachers, the average pay for teachers here in the NW is mid 50's ---which if I had all the time off and benefits they do I wouldn't complain so loudly.


Average pay in my district is around 75k and they went on strike last year...


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## snickerd3 (Apr 11, 2011)

picusld said:


> Average pay in my district is around 75k and they went on strike last year...


are you talking about teachers still? 75K for 9 months a year!!!! I'm in the wrong profession/location


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## ALBin517 (Apr 11, 2011)

Just a general public versus private note: There is always a call for equity when the job market is bad. "Well we all have to take a hit ... government included."

But when times are good and salaries in the private sector are going up 10% per year, nobody says, "Well we all have to get 10% raises ... government included."


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## picusld (Apr 11, 2011)

ALBin517 said:


> Just a general public versus private note: There is always a call for equity when the job market is bad. "Well we all have to take a hit ... government included."
> But when times are good and salaries in the private sector are going up 10% per year, nobody says, "Well we all have to get 10% raises ... government included."


While a gov employee may only get 2-4% per year, they are also getting a consistent Step increase, cola increase and a bonus. All said and done, almost always over 5%, sometime near 10%...Good economy or bad.


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## jeb6294 (Apr 12, 2011)

picusld said:


> With no chance of getting fired, 6 weeks vacation/sick time per year (that you don't lose yearly if not used), something like 14 holidays, AWS days (think that is right term), pension, a 100% match on up to something like 10% on your TSP, 100% tuition coverage on a masters degree, most likely having your entire Six sig paid for and the time into it sponsored by the government, and if your a 13 making 100k I think that would constitute no overtime...


Ever heard of a RIF? I'll let you guess what that stands for, but it rhymes with Reduction In Force. Just because they don't call it getting fired or laid off doesn't mean it doesn't happen. You actually get to carry over 240 hours of vacation time which is nice but anything you don't use over that you can kiss goodbye. I doubt you could even come up with 14 holidays in a year so I have no idea which orifice you pulled that number from. And what the hell is an AWS day? The Gov't pension sucks and 5% matching is nothing special, we had the same thing on the private side.



picusld said:


> While a gov employee may only get 2-4% per year, they are also getting a consistent Step increase, cola increase and a bonus. All said and done, almost always over 5%, sometime near 10%...Good economy or bad.


Since you are so well informed, please let me know where this magical 2-4% is coming from on top of our massive COLA and step increases because I must have missed that one on my latest pay stub. Since you've apparently been living under a rock, there are no COLA increases for the next 2 years and there's no such thing a "bonus". Step increases are performance based and they are annual for the first couple years but then the frequency goes up after that so guess what...for a lot of us our increase is going to be a big fat 0%. So, you can take your imaginary 5-10% yearly increase and shove it up your a$$.


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## maryannette (Apr 12, 2011)

^ Well said.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 12, 2011)

snickerd3 said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > Average pay in my district is around 75k and they went on strike last year...
> ...


Must be a union state. Here in my area, teachers are retiring with twenty eight years service making less than 50K. And its actually 10.5 months out of the year. And they usually have to take classes during that 1.5 months (sometimes on their own dime, sometimes not) to maintain certification.


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## picusld (Apr 12, 2011)

jeb6294 said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > With no chance of getting fired, 6 weeks vacation/sick time per year (that you don't lose yearly if not used), something like 14 holidays, AWS days (think that is right term), pension, a 100% match on up to something like 10% on your TSP, 100% tuition coverage on a masters degree, most likely having your entire Six sig paid for and the time into it sponsored by the government, and if your a 13 making 100k I think that would constitute no overtime...
> ...


New Year's Day -- January 1

Martin Luther King, Jr. Day -- 3rd Monday in January

Presidents Day (Washington's Birthday) -- 3rd Monday in February

Memorial Day -- Last Monday in May

Independence Day -- July 4

Labor Day -- 1st Monday in September

Columbus Day -- 2nd Monday in October

Veterans Day -- November 11

Thanksgiving -- 4th Thursday in November

Christmas -- December 25

You are correct, I over estimated the holiday schedule. 10 days is standard + inauguration day (when applicable) + whenever a president dies...Still more than the private sector.

Step increase schedule

WITHIN-GRADE STEP INCREASES: Each pay category is identified by a grade 1 through 15 and within each grade are ten steps. Based on performance and time in grade, employees are eligible to go up steps within their grades. After one year (52 weeks) you can go from Step 1 to Step 2, 3 and then to Step 4. For Steps 5,6, and 7, it takes 2 years (104 weeks); after 3 years (156 weeks) you can go to Step 8, 9, and 10. You top out at Step 10 and try for the next higher grade.

Still more than the private sector for the past 3-4 years but may be going away with the new budget.

There are branches that get bonuses.

Is the case that you are making above that you can only carry 6 weeks vacation before use or lose? If there are any non gov employees on this board that have over 6 weeks of vacation please let me know where you work so I can send in an application.


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## Ble_PE (Apr 12, 2011)

^Can't speak for anyone else, but I can roll over an unlimited amount of vacation time. Where I work they don't have vacation, sick, or holidays, you simply have a bank of hours for time off. You do have to take 6 holidays off, but after that it's up to you. I started off with around 3 weeks of time off per year and it will go up this year on my anniversary date, so I'm not complaining about time off. I'm not going to give out my company's name, but it's an EPC company.


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## maryannette (Apr 12, 2011)

picusld said:


> If there are any non gov employees on this board that have over 6 weeks of vacation please let me know where you work so I can send in an application.


Six weeks of vacation is not earned in a year. It is earned at a rate depending on length of service. The amount that can be carried over is 240 hours, but it must be earned and built up first.

If you want to apply for a gov job, go to www.usajobs.com.


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## picusld (Apr 12, 2011)

Merrimac said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > If there are any non gov employees on this board that have over 6 weeks of vacation please let me know where you work so I can send in an application.
> ...


I have.


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## Capt Worley PE (Apr 12, 2011)

Merrimac said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > If there are any non gov employees on this board that have over 6 weeks of vacation please let me know where you work so I can send in an application.
> ...


Back when i was a gov, my AL generally hovered around 120 hours. I once got to 150, but that was a fluke.

IIRC, it was earned at 4hrs/2weeks for 0-3yrs service, 6hrs/2weeks for 3-15yrs, and 8hr/2weeks for over 15.

The pay and agency match are far better than I got anywhere else. I just hated my job and where I lived when i quit working for the gov.


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## ALBin517 (Apr 12, 2011)

picusld said:


> ALBin517 said:
> 
> 
> > Just a general public versus private note: There is always a call for equity when the job market is bad. "Well we all have to take a hit ... government included."
> ...



I am a government employee.

I have topped out, so no step increase. Nobody in my union has ever got a bonus. We have not got a COLA increase since January 2009.


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## Kephart P.E. (Apr 12, 2011)

Capt Worley PE said:


> snickerd3 said:
> 
> 
> > picusld said:
> ...



I think at the top the teachers make around 65,000 here in Oregon and yes we are a Union state, we maybe the strongest Teachers Union in the nation and on average our public schools are real dogs.


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## Kephart P.E. (Apr 12, 2011)

ALBin517 said:


> picusld said:
> 
> 
> > ALBin517 said:
> ...


I haven't had a increase since April of 2008,  but I am in the private sector.


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## jeb6294 (Apr 13, 2011)

ALBin517 said:


> I am a government employee.
> I have topped out, so no step increase. Nobody in my union has ever got a bonus. We have not got a COLA increase since January 2009.


You didn't get a COLA for '10? I thought that was the last one before they nixed it for the next two years.


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## ALBin517 (Apr 13, 2011)

jeb6294 said:


> ALBin517 said:
> 
> 
> > I am a government employee.
> ...



I am municipal, not federal.

Our old deal expired on 12-31-2009 so the only increase anybody in our union can get right now is step increase. But like I said above, I have topped out.

Matter of fact, due to no employers hiring and no employees changing jobs, all but one of our union members has topped out.


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