# PE Application without PE supervised work experience



## dcgil1080 (Aug 19, 2016)

So I know that variations of this question has been asked time and time again. I've looked through the forums and haven't found exactly what I'm looking for and many of the ones that come closest to answering my questions were quite old, so when I went to try to verify that information it appeared that in many cases it had changed (or maybe was just not well publicized). At this point I'm just basically reduced to searching 50+ websites in a hit-or-miss fashion in hopes of finding the answer. If there's a forum that answers please point me in that direction and accept my apologies. 

As simply put as possible: I want to get my PE license, but I have never worked under the supervision of a PE. And for that matter I barely know any PEs. I've worked with one from other companies we've hired once or twice over the years so that they could basically stamp designs that we made. 

Is there any state that allows any exemption for this? I am in TN and from what I've learned talking to the board in the past they allow some exemptions with some heavy lifting style workarounds, but more recent conversations make those sound like avenues they're less willing to consider these days. And from what I learned from a former classmate that got his PE a few years back they basically want a portfolio of your work (and he was working directly under a PE specifically for the purposes of getting a PE license) and he had to resubmit twice. I know for a fact that the majority of the work that I did for my company over the past several years is confidential and I very highly doubt that they will just allow me to send of packages of drawings and information, especially since I just left the company. 

So are there other states that don't require that work was done under a PE? That don't care that I probably can't even produce a PE? I know that my work meets the requirements other than that. I worked for my last company for about 3.5 years doing heavy engineering and project management and I've worked for two other companies since school doing engineering work (albeit much less technical since I was younger and more inexperienced then). I meet all the requirements other than the PE supervision. 

Sadly, the more I look the more I start to think that it's not really an option. And if that's the case then I probably won't ever get my license. I am six years out of school now and if I had to start over with four years of experience at this point then I would be getting my license at 10+ years out of school (not that unheard of I know), but that would have me competing with guys that have been out of school for 4-5 years that got their license at the same time, or other engineers with the same amount of experience that have been licensed for 6+ years.


----------



## HI_ee (Aug 19, 2016)

I know for a fact that California has this exemption if you worked in the defense industry. They will still evaluate your work but it wouldn't have to be under a licensed PE. I hope that answers your question.


----------



## dcgil1080 (Aug 19, 2016)

Unfortunately I wasn't in defense. Just standard, boring manufacturing. Which I assume is why there are no PEs in sight since most everyone only did engineering internally and almost nothing got a stamp.

Generally the only reason we would go outside for a stamp is if a design looked like it really had the capacity to hurt someone if something went wrong structurally and it was just a CYA move. They all went into a drawer somewhere in case sometime in the future something happened. 

CA is one of the states I've heard better things about, and I'm actually considering a move there so I wouldn't even feel like I'm trying to beat the system, but I haven't gotten around to trying to talk to someone from the board there yet.


----------



## ptatohed (Aug 19, 2016)

Could you use the PEs that stamped your drawings as a reference?


----------



## dcgil1080 (Aug 19, 2016)

I have considered that, but it's quite a long shot. And that engineer would only be able to verify the small amount of work I did with him. He would be completely unfamiliar with any of my other work. It might be something that would help me in my application, but I don't think it would actually come very close to a solution.


----------



## cupojoe PE PMP (Aug 19, 2016)

dcgil1080 said:


> I have considered that, but it's quite a long shot. And that engineer would only be able to verify the small amount of work I did with him. He would be completely unfamiliar with any of my other work. It might be something that would help me in my application, but I don't think it would actually come very close to a solution.


You might read the definition of the states are looking for. It's been a while since I filled out Missouri, but I believe they only needed to vouch for professional reputation and character while having supervisory control over your work. So might be able to verify longer experience ranges. In Missouri your work experience is filled out by your supervisor regardless of whether they are PE or not. Though I didn't have this issue since I worked/work for an engineering firm and have worked directly for several PEs.


----------



## CU07 (Aug 22, 2016)

cupojoe PE PMP said:


> You might read the definition of the states are looking for. It's been a while since I filled out Missouri, but I believe they only needed to vouch for professional reputation and character while having supervisory control over your work. So might be able to verify longer experience ranges. In Missouri your work experience is filled out by your supervisor regardless of whether they are PE or not. Though I didn't have this issue since I worked/work for an engineering firm and have worked directly for several PEs.


This is how NYS is as well.  I don't know anyone who did not use a PE as a reference at all, but I do know of people who had non-PEs verify portions of their experience that were accepted.

http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pels/pelic.htm#educ


----------



## ruggercsc (Aug 22, 2016)

I am in TN and all of my experience was verified by non PE's.  *You will need three PE's as references, but not to verify your work experience.*  I would ask the PE's that stamped your drawings as a reference.  They know you through your business dealings and should be able to provide a  professional reference.  Most PE's sympathize with you and know what you are going through.

The most important thing is when you state your experience on the application, use the terms they are looking for.  This is listed in their website and under "What constitutes Progressive Experience".  I had to resubmit mine twice  to make it more clear state my experience.  Again, use the terminology from   "What constitutes Progressive Experience" .  Here is a link:

http://www.tn.gov/assets/entities/commerce/attachments/Arch_EICertification.pdf

For example.  In manufacturing I would state:


Practical application of Theory:  Systems Application - Talk about what you do , especially as it relates to the terms listed (evaluation of the reliability of system parts, manufacturing tolerances, etc.)

Time in the Engineering Process - Talk about what you do as it relates to workflow challenges, corrosion rates, replacement scheduling, etc.
 



Make sure you state your experience in the terms they are looking for.  I think you may surprise yourself and realize you do have the progressive experience they are looking for.

Good Luck.


----------



## Audi Driver P.E. (Aug 22, 2016)

^

|

|

This is true in WA too.


----------



## Karissa (Aug 24, 2016)

in Michigan I had 3 signatures of my managers or people with PHDs that I've worked with instead of PEs. I didn't have to send in proof of work I've done just 5 signatures total basically stating that I've worked there for as long as I claimed I had.

Rule 339.16022 (3) states that acceptable experience is to be done under the direction of a licensed professional engineer  "or a person of equivalent professional standing." so I sent an email to the board to clarify the rule and their response was

"A person of “equivalent professional standing” would apply only if you qualify for the “Industrial/Manufacturing” exemption; If you work for a company which produces a product where the company is 100% responsible for the quality of the product they produce, like an automobile manufacturer or one of the parts suppliers to an auto manufacturer, then Michigan’s statute exempts the designers of said product from the requirement of being a “licensed professional engineer”. Therefore, you can use engineering supervisors, managers, senior engineers, holders of Ph.D. degrees in engineering, etc., as references with “equivalent professional standing”. Additionally, you do not need to directly report to your reference; your reference only needs to be a person who is “familiar “ with the nature of your work. This can even be someone from another company who you have worked with on joint projects (if that person is a licensed PE)."


----------



## Panchito (Aug 29, 2016)

WA state:

"For applicants working in the manufacturing industry, experience is not required under the supervision or a professional engineer, but a PE must be employed by the firm."


----------

