# Attorney with liberal arts background looking to take FE Exam



## SoftIPLawyer (Jun 19, 2014)

Hello All,

I am currently an attorney looking to take the FE Exam so that I will be eligible to sit for the Patent Bar. My undergraduate background is in the liberal arts and I have absolutely no background in engineering or science. Traditionally, I've actually been pretty horrible at math.

I realize that engineers work very hard in learning their craft and by no means do I mean to underestimate the time and preparation needed to pass this exam. Passing this test for me is a route to being more marketable to practice Patent Law, really just copyrights and trademarks, which have absolutely nothing to do with engineering.

What discipline would be the best self-study for someone just learning about engineering and has a weak math background? What aids would you recommend to begin this long journey?

I was thinking of taking the Environmental Engineering Exam or the Civil as my current work is environmentally related and I heard that Civil was the easiest of the bunch (as if any of the disciplines are easy). Which would you recommend?

Thank you in advance.


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## roadwreck (Jun 19, 2014)

I think step one would be to determine if you are eligible to sit for the FE. Rules vary by state.

http://ncees.org/exams/ncees-member-boards/


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## Road Guy (Jun 19, 2014)

You probably cant take the FE without some type of engineering / Math / Physics degree in most states (or 8 years experince in the field)

Most people that are terrible at math but want to work in the engineering field generally take this exam https://www.planning.org/*aicp*


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## iwire (Jun 19, 2014)

...see we all engineers should become a patent lawyer..we are destined to be..


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## solomonb (Jun 19, 2014)

You will need to acquire some engineering background in order to sit for the Fundamentals of Engineering examination. You can do this, however, there is significant stem work required before you will acquire the education necessary to sit for the examination. Like the bar, there are only a few states that allow you to sit for the bar exam without having gone to law school. California is one of those states-- and notoriously, has one of the toughest bar exams in the country!!!! 5 Days, as I recall. Engineering does not work that way.

If you wish to take the FE examination, my suggestion is to enroll at the undergraduate level in an engineering program in a discipline that is of interest to you. Engineering has a lot of math associated with it. You will have to learn significant math in order to qualify to sit for the FE examination. Again, not an impossibility, but not something that can be done overnight either-- especially if you don't have adequate and robust preparation.


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## SoftIPLawyer (Jun 19, 2014)

Thank you all for your comments. I am eligible to take the FE Exam in a couple of states that have no requirements to sit. Michigan is one of those states.

To be clear, I am not interested in taking another test nor am I interested in working as an engineer. Again, I am interested in taking and passing the FE test solely to be eligible to sit for the Patent Bar. Without having an undergraduate degree in science, passing the FE exam is the only feasible route for me to sit for the Patent Bar.

So I ask, "What discipline would be the best self-study for someone just learning about engineering and has a weak math background? What aids would you recommend to begin this long journey?" 

"I was thinking of taking the Environmental Engineering Exam or the Civil as my current work is environmentally related and I heard that Civil was the easiest of the bunch (as if any of the disciplines are easy). Which would you recommend?"

Thank you all again in advance for your advice.


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## SoftIPLawyer (Jun 19, 2014)

Solomonb

Thank you for the advice.

Again, I am eligible to sit for the FE Exam in a couple of states. Also, I realize that a lot of preparation, in math as well as in other subjects is necessary. I have studied relevant undergraduate courses at an ivy league institution, although years ago, and I am not totally incapable of understanding this type of material. I also understand the amount of study involved and the time it may take.

Please, I only ask the board for your personal opinion of what discipline specific test you recommend in my case and what materials you believe will best assist me in this endeavor.

Thank you


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## Peele1 (Jun 19, 2014)

The FE tests you on your ability to pass the FE. You might want to take a look at NCEES's site to see what types of questions are on each type of exam. You might find one that has a good mix of what you are interested in as well as what you can get correct.

I changed my mind 3 times when I was preparing for the PE based on the example questions and available resources.

I have an Engineering degree and a PE. I've been very curious about the Patent Bar. Where can I find out more information about it? Would I be eligible to take it?


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## SoftIPLawyer (Jun 19, 2014)

Hello Peelel,

My issue is NOT regarding by eligibility to sit for the FE exam. I have already conducted research and I am eligible to sit in a few states that have no educational nor work experience requirement. My sole question is what specific discipline would be best suited for someone who wish to engage in SELF- STUDY, who a general layman knowledge of the basics through an undergraduate degree that is not in engineering and what materials do you recommend using in order to achieve the basic level of knowledge needed to pas the FE exam in that discipline.

Peelel- you can go to the United State Patent &amp; Trademark Office website for more information. (USPTO) To becoming a patent ATTORNEY, you need to become an attorney (which requires 3 years of law school and passing the bar of some state). I believe if you would simply like to become a Patent Reviewing AGENT with the USPTO, then that will be an easier route for you.


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## SoftIPLawyer (Jun 19, 2014)

*Please excuse the multiple spelling and grammatical errors in my last post.


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## envirotex (Jun 19, 2014)

You can review the exam specs here: http://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/

I would not attempt the exam without college level instruction in calculus, chemistry, and physics. So I would start there. Try your local community college. Some even offer online courses.

FWIW, I would also be pretty unlikely to have you review or file my patent application as my legal counsel if you did not have the scientific background to do so. All of the the patent attorneys that I know also have engineering degrees or other scientific backgrounds.


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## Peele1 (Jun 19, 2014)

Here is the link to NCEES FE exam types:

http://ncees.org/exams/fe-exam/

Review them all.

They all have math, statistics, ethics, economics.

In Civil it has things like: Statics, Dynamics, Materials, Transportation, hydrology, Mechanics, structural, geotechnical, and _*environmental*_.

Environmental has: Materials, Fluids (hydrology), wastewater, hazardous waste, water, and air quality.

Industrial is good for many people. (Actually, looking at it now, I might should have done that one...)

"Other" has a little bit of everything. It might be the easiest, since the questions are less deep, but more broad.

If I were you, I would get the free 291 page Reference Handbook here: http://ncees.org/exams/study-materials/download-fe-supplied-reference-handbook/

In case you didn't know, you can use the Reference Handbook on the exam itself.

And, Pick up a few (or all) of the sample exams here: https://account.ncees.org/exam-prep/store/category/FE

And see what you like to work on.


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## Road Guy (Jun 19, 2014)

another option, &amp; serioulsy If I was in your shoes, and now that the test is a computer based test, I would just sign up and take it, use that as a study guide and then you can get a feel for it and then go study....Its not like it cost $1,000 to take the exam..

what i remember from the FE was pounding a lot on my calculator and lots of units, units, units, there was some calculus, I was always week in chemestry.. I took it it was general in the AM and Civil in the PM.. So I had to suffer through all the EE, ME, crap (no offense)..

and by units I mean they ask a problem and throw in lots of odd english and metic units and leave it up to you to determine which ones they intended to be answered in...KG,M,LF,lbs,tons,moles,g,mg,in, etc...

1"=2.54 cm.....


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## DanHalen (Jun 19, 2014)

I'll skip the usual bs and get to the point. I know several of you "patent attorney" types and since you don't have an engineering degree I would shoot for the general FE exam. Everyone takes the same morning session but the afternoon is where you get more specific. Unless you have a *strong* environmental engineering background don't even think about taking that exam. Civil is only easy if you have a civil degree and have a strong understanding on the main five topics; Construction, Structures, Transportation, Geotech, and Water Resources/Environmental Engineering. The FE exam allows you to take more general type questions that aren't as specific say as Civil, Mechanical, Electrical, etc., in the afternoon and thus should give you a better chance of passing. Take a good prep class like the School of PE to help you weed out the junk you don't need to bother studying. That's probably all you will need to take and pass the FE exam. If you want to practice some problems on your own try a few study guides. This is a list of things I would get if I were in your situation:

Good study guide: http://ppi2pass.com/1001-solved-engineering-fundamentals-problems-efprb3.html

FE Reference Handbook - you must be familiar with this!: http://ppi2pass.com/ncees-fe-reference-handbook-9-0-version-for-computer-based-testing-ncees9.html

Good study guide: http://ppi2pass.com/999-nonquantitative-problems-for-fe-examination-review-fesp.html

I highly recommend you get this calculator and get use to using it: http://ppi2pass.com/casio-fx-115-es-plus-advanced-scientific-calculator-fx115esp.html

This is a great reference and will help you a great deal: http://ppi2pass.com/engineer-in-training-reference-manual-eit8-2005.html

NCEES Practice Exam: https://account.ncees.org/exam-prep/store/category/FE/product/fe-other-disciplines-practice-exam-1

Great Prep Class: http://www.schoolofpe.com/ and you can also try these people as I've heard lots of good things about them: http://www.eet-california.com/

This is the exam you will study for: http://cdn4.ncees.co/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/FE-Other-CBT-specs_with-ranges.pdf

Plan to spend about 6 months preparing for this exam realistically. If it were me I would order the study guides, reference manual, calculator, and FE handbook now and go through that material by end of this summer. This fall take a review class and review that material. Once you feel comfortable with the material sign up to take your exam and forget about it....

You might want to shop around on Amazon and/or eBay to get the best deals on your study material. That stuff adds up quick! I'm pretty sure you can get that Casio calculator about $10 cheaper at Wal-Mart. Good luck and hope you do well on your studies and exam.


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## SoftIPLawyer (Jun 20, 2014)

Thank you Envirotex, Peele1 and DanHalen for your advice. I truly appreciate it!!! I will look into all of your good suggestions, many resources I was already familiar with, some not so much, but I just wanted some confirmation from those more knowledgeable . Thank you again.


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## Ivory (Jun 22, 2014)

Are patent attorneys in big demand? and do they pay well?


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## slickjohannes (Jun 22, 2014)

Take the Other Disciplines (or General, or whatever it's called).

Go get yourself the FE Reference Manual. The first few chapters are math; go as far as you possibly can in the math sections and then see if you can complete the other chapters (fluids, thermo, statics, etc., etc.) without what you haved deemed as difficult math. I'd get a couple of sample exams from NCEES or PPI (the sample exam in the FE Reference Manual is significantly more difficult than the real deal) and see how you do. Or, do as someone here suggested- go take the test right off the bat and see how you do. If you fail, they send you a dianostic report to help you focus on your weak areas.

You're likely going to need more than just exam prep material. In my preparation, there was very little that was covered in my $100+ text books from college that I couldn't find on the internet. Don't bother looking at wikipedia, in my opinion- nothing is ever in layman's terms there. Seek out other sources (like a professor's notes posted on a university website or even youtube videos) that step you through things and give you the background. Had these resources been availble to me when I was in school I would have never bought a text book.

I once saw a course offered that appeared to be an instruction on "how to guess your way through the exam". I don't advocate that methodology, but it goes to show you that someone _believes_ you can guess your way to passing. Considering that the exam is all multiple choice, consiting of 4 answers per question, and that the passing score is usually around 60%, I'd say you got a good chance if you study your butt off for 6 to 9 months focusing on the basics. You must be halfway inteligent if you're an attorney, though, your ethics may be questionable (j/k).

Honestly, I find it admirable if you really do attempt this. I doubt you'd find a lot of PE's over on Lawyer Boards.com...


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## Road Guy (Jun 22, 2014)

What's the difference in a dead lawyer in the road and a dead snake in the road?


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## Flyer_PE (Jun 23, 2014)

Road Guy said:


> What's the difference in a dead lawyer in the road and a dead snake in the road?




There are skid marks leading up to the snake.


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## Ship Wreck PE (Jun 23, 2014)

^^^^ that's funny


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## John QPE (Jul 7, 2014)

There are really states that have no requirements for the FE?

I find this hard to believe.


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## matt267 PE (Jul 7, 2014)

John Q said:


> There are really states that have no requirements for the FE?
> 
> I find this hard to believe.


Some states let you take the PE without the FE if you have "X" years of qualifying engineering experience. In RI, you can take the PE without the FE if you have an accredited degree and 12 years experience.


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## Flyer_PE (Jul 7, 2014)

Wisconsin has some interesting rules also. Last time I checked, WI would issue a PE license based on years of experience only. No FE or PE required. Not much in the way of reciprocity for somebody in WI who gets the license that way though.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 7, 2014)

Flyer_PE said:


> Wisconsin has some interesting rules also. Last time I checked, WI would issue a PE license based on years of experience only. No FE or PE required. Not much in the way of reciprocity for somebody in WI who gets the license that way though.


But that's something like 20+ years of progressive engineering experience.


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## Road Guy (Jul 7, 2014)

I worked with a guy who did that in GA, he just never fully graduated. in the 70's they just needed people to work and didnt care so much for pedigrees. so at guess at some point in time he just never finished his degree but had worked his way up in the company.... but he went back like 30 years out of college and passed both the EIT and the PE (first attempt each one).. he actually lived in Tennessee and commuted to Atlanta (that had to suck) but he coulndt get his license in Tennessee (or many other places)

He was a very book smart person and a good engineer as long as you had unlimited schedule and bugdet, but he was a subdtandard decision maker and very piss-poor project manager...


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## JB66money (Jul 14, 2014)

SoftlPLawyer,

First of all I believe that each engineering discipline is equal in level of difficulty, so I would suggest that you choose an area that you are most interested in. In order for you to pass the FE exam you will have to do like everyone else who have passed it has done which is to study learn all of the material that will be on the exam. There is no magic formula other than studying and learning. The same way that if any of us engineers want to be able to pass the bar exam we would have to study and learn law in the respected state that we would like to take it in.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Jul 16, 2014)

SoftlPLawyer,

This thread http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=22926 might be of some interest to you.

Most on the this board passed the "old" format of the FE exam, so you definitely need to talk to those who have taken the new format.

Best of luck!


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## mysticpots (Nov 7, 2022)

SoftIPLawyer said:


> Hello All,
> 
> I am currently an attorney looking to take the FE Exam so that I will be eligible to sit for the Patent Bar. My undergraduate background is in the liberal arts and I have absolutely no background in engineering or science. Traditionally, I've actually been pretty horrible at math.
> 
> ...


Hi! I'm trying to accomplish the same thing. I was wondering if I could pick you brains on your journey and if it worked. I also don't have a background in any engineering related field. Please let me know if you were able to take the FE exam and if you took the parent exam. Thank you!!!


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## pvtblunt (Nov 15, 2022)

SoftIPLawyer said:


> Thank you all for your comments. I am eligible to take the FE Exam in a couple of states that have no requirements to sit. Michigan is one of those states.
> 
> To be clear, I am not interested in taking another test nor am I interested in working as an engineer. Again, I am interested in taking and passing the FE test solely to be eligible to sit for the Patent Bar. Without having an undergraduate degree in science, passing the FE exam is the only feasible route for me to sit for the Patent Bar.
> 
> ...



Follow this link to find out the question breakdown of each of the exams: NCEES FE exam information

If you are weak in math, I would suggest you spend a considerable amount of time building your strengths there. If you can't do math, then you will not be able to perform the calculations necessary to deduce correct answers for the rest of the exam.


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## Reverse Polish (Dec 5, 2022)

mysticpots said:


> Hi! I'm trying to accomplish the same thing. I was wondering if I could pick you brains on your journey and if it worked. I also don't have a background in any engineering related field. Please let me know if you were able to take the FE exam and if you took the parent exam. Thank you!!!



Understand that "FE" is the Fundamentals of Engineering. The exam is designed to test everything you are expected to learn in an undergraduate engineering curriculum. In other words, people spend four years (or more) learning the concepts covered on this exam. 

Just know that your insistence that you can "walk in off the street", pass an exam for which most of us busted our butts, and then ask us to tell you how to pass so that you can make double or triple our salaries?... Well, that may not be received very well by some. 

Engineering isn't easy. If it was, you would have done it as an undergrad too.


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## Stewie (Dec 23, 2022)

Call your state licensure board. You are probably able to sit in the FE exam and pass it. However, to obtain the EIT license is another story. I am not sure if the patent bar requires the FE pass result or the EIT license. Just saying...


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