# Anyone fail MD depth, then took TFS depth?



## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 22, 2014)

I'm trying to determine if I should take the TFS depth next October. I failed MD, and I don't actually "do" machine design work. I was just better at those classes back in college, so that's what I chose.

Anyone fail MD, then took TFS and passed? Any insights on doing this?


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## Mike M PE (May 22, 2014)

Smott,

From my prep class (School of PE) we had tons of folks that moved from Machine Design (the instructors said this is the toughest/broadest module) to either TFS or HVAC and I know most of them passed. It is doable I would suggest you buy the 6ms for fluids and a 2008 NCEES exam book for those subjects if you decide to make the jump.

Mike


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 22, 2014)

Thanks Mike!

I have all three 6MS books, both 2001 and 2008 NCEES sample exams. I'm looking into if my company will pay for me to do SoPE.

What I'm concerned with is the fact that fluids was my worst subject in college. But if I take a review course, maybe I will better understand it.

I'm also wondering about good reference material for TFS depth...expanded property tables, etc. that I would need.


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## Golden Eagle PE (May 22, 2014)

mmcdowell25 said:


> Smott,
> 
> From my prep class (School of PE) we had tons of folks that moved from Machine Design (the instructors said this is the toughest/broadest module) to either TFS or HVAC and I know most of them passed. It is doable I would suggest you buy the 6ms for fluids and a 2008 NCEES exam book for those subjects if you decide to make the jump.
> 
> Mike


I agree that MD is probably broader than the other depths. Keep in mind that NCEES probably adjusts the cut score differently for each depth. Does not mean they have to, but I would not be surprised if they did.

Go with your strengths. If it is TFS, then study those problems.


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## Mike M PE (May 22, 2014)

I have to say that SOPE saved my bacon. I know the morning subjects carried the day for me. The afternoon was brutal but because of the 6ms and the repetition if doing problems (I threw away 200 pages of paper with problems that I did this morning.

You can do it!


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## Bosco PE (May 22, 2014)

StillNotA PE said:


> I'm also wondering about good reference material for TFS depth...expanded property tables, etc. that I would need.




I don't know what references you guys use for machine design, but I passed T&amp;F depth and all I used was the MERM and NCEES sample exam. I did not feel like I was lacking any reference material.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 22, 2014)

bosco115 said:


> StillNotA PE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm also wondering about good reference material for TFS depth...expanded property tables, etc. that I would need.
> ...


Thanks! Good to know! I just wondered if there were any references that made things faster on this depth. Similar to how the unit conversions book makes converting easier.


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## Bosco PE (May 22, 2014)

Some people tabbed the hell out of their MERM. I'd rather use the extensive index they already created, so I printed out the index and put it in a three-ring binder. That way I could refer to this small binder of papers to get to the right section rather than flipping to the back of a huge book. That felt like a huge speed boost to me during the exam.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 22, 2014)

bosco115 said:


> Some people tabbed the hell out of their MERM. I'd rather use the extensive index they already created, so I printed out the index and put it in a three-ring binder. That way I could refer to this small binder of papers to get to the right section rather than flipping to the back of a huge book. That felt like a huge speed boost to me during the exam.


Tabbed my book first time I took the exam, and didn't use them. I used the index instead, and can see how having it in a separate binder will be beneficial.


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## Ramnares P.E. (May 23, 2014)

SMott, here's a good forum post discussing the Thermal/Fluids exam. I've been following what "MapuaTech" has recommended. Hope this is helpful:

http://engineerboards.com/?showtopic=19578

In my prep for the TF thus far I have actually used:

- MERM (of course)

- Bought all 3 SMS, used the TF one (it's very good)

- NCEES 2001, 2008 (haven't gotten to these yet)

- Steam Tables (I would not recommend the ASME one that's available, it's not particularly thorough)

- Lindeburg Conversion Book


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## Ramnares P.E. (May 23, 2014)

Haven't taken the PE yet but I also have the MERM index printed separately and during studying I've found it to be immensely helpful. Also, as I worked through the SMS for TF, I found a few key words/formulas not listed in the index so I've written them in with the MERM page.


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## Bosco PE (May 23, 2014)

MapuaTech's prep is ridiculously comprehensive and time consuming. I'm convinced that if you prepare like that, you will probably ace the exam. Unfortunately, I didn't have that kind of time to study, so I had to be tactical.

Here's my most important advice - know the NCEES Sample Exam and bring it with you.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 23, 2014)

I've always assumed the 500 Lindeburg problems people refer to are the ones in the practice problems companion book that goes with the MERM.

Right now I'm going to follow the outline in MERM, reading each chapter then working the problems from the practice problems book associated with that chapter. Even if I have done the chapter before, I'm going to do it again.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 24, 2014)

ramnares said:


> SMott, here's a good forum post discussing the Thermal/Fluids exam. I've been following what "MapuaTech" has recommended. Hope this is helpful:
> 
> http://engineerboards.com/?showtopic=19578
> 
> ...


I have everything you have, except steam tables. Where can I get some good steam tables (which ones are good)?
I'm getting ready to start studying again next week. I'm not sure I can be as thorough as MapuaTech...would be nice to have that kind of time.


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## Golden Eagle PE (May 24, 2014)

Get Keenan and keys


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 24, 2014)

Golden Eagle PE said:


> Get Keenan and keys


Thanks!


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## Golden Eagle PE (May 24, 2014)

StillNotA PE said:


> Golden Eagle PE said:
> 
> 
> > Get Keenan and keys
> ...


They are cheap too. I got mine for almost nothing on Amazon. Good luck with studying TFS.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 24, 2014)

Thanks again. I'm looking at getting the steam (water) and the gas tables.


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## Bosco PE (May 26, 2014)

Even in the T&amp;F depth, I did not need anything beyond what the MERM already had. The steam tables were adequate.

I felt like the MERM practice problems were an extraordinary waste of time. Problems typically took upwards of 20-30 minutes to solve, even if you're good. In my limited studying time, I'd rather spend those 30 minutes solving 3 problems than working on one problem where I have to look up the friction factor of a schedule 40 steel pipe, get the kinematic viscosity of water at whatever bullshit temperature they're giving me so that I can derive a Reynold's Number, then finally have the variables needed to solve for head loss in a pipe.

I was seriously annoyed going through the practice problems in the MERM.


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## Ramnares P.E. (May 26, 2014)

I agree with Bosco. The MERM is incredibly intensive and forces you to look up every value. The SMS does a much better job with its problems. Many of the SMS problems still require looking up viscosity, friction factor at specific conditions but it's not anywhere as bad. I haven't gotten to the NCEES practice yet so I can't opine on it.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 26, 2014)

I agree with you guys on MERM problems, they do take a lot if time to work. Let me tell you my delimma with it, though.

The first time I took the exam, I only used MERM and the associated practice problems to study. I only got a few chapters done before test time, due to my father having major health problems and having to travel and take care of him during a portion of time. But I did exceptionally well on those areas of the exam (100%, 90's%). My scaled score was a 61, I bombed all other sections of the exam. I knew I would fail it.

This past time I focused on sample exams: all three 6MS (only afternoon portion of MD book), both 2001/2008 NCEES sample exams, and Carlos Chapek exam. I worked them and worked them, and felt like I had prepared well. I actually felt good about the exam. I knew I didn't nail it, but really felt like I would pass. I did worse this time, with a scaled score if 55, and this has stumped me.

Feeling lost, so I'm almost positive I'm going to sign up for Dr Tom's Classroom this week, and will definitely take TFS this Oct.


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## speedbump (May 27, 2014)

I took School of PE as well and it literally helped me pass. I believe I answered all but one problem correctly in the AM, though the PM (M&amp;M) was a different animal. As others may have mentioned, all of the online classes, the way its outlined, you will ace the morning. On exam day I talked to some fellow ME's who took the PPI course ( they used the Lindeburg Practice Problems, and Sample Exam)

Some key tips from the instructors( most were good):

Machine Design (if you decide to take this portion again): Schaum's Outline, Shigley &amp; Mischke Machine Design, Dynamics (your college book).

T&amp;F: Know all of these sections in the MERM well., Crane's. Know how use the Appendix. Instructors claim that all you need is the MERM, conversions book.

HVAC: Will have to know this as well since its somewhat relevant to T&amp;F. Note: The 13ed. of the MERM is more thorough than the 12th (non- existent). 13th has ASHRAE codes, etc. Instructors claim that all you need is the MERM, conversions book.

Proj. Mgmt, Statistics/ Probability, Economics:

I chose the MD since its relevant to my career (Aerospace), but also considered the T&amp;F, since it was the claimed to be the easiest of the 3 (Though I think all 3 are hard).


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## Ramnares P.E. (May 27, 2014)

SMott it may be an issue of what type of prep is best for you as well as the material on the exam at that time. I have three friends who all took the TF and passed the first time. 2 out of the three worked NCEES sample exams and the SMS (one took it and passed this April), using the MERM as a reference and passed the first time. The third basically did what I'm aiming to do - work SMS, NCEES and the MERM problems, and he also passed on his first try.

I've worked the SMS and also the Lindeburg practice exam and I haven't used Crane's Technical Manual at any point. The Appendix in the MERM covers pretty much everything that you would use Crane for but that's just my opinion.


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## SNAPE/SMOTT PE (May 27, 2014)

Thanks guys! I'm definitely doing the TFS this time around. And since I've been out of college for 10 years, I'm going to take a review course.

I'm pretty set on taking Dr. Tom's online only version. He does a 20 week course and guides you on how/what/when to study. Seems like people have had good success, and he teaches to the breadth as well as depth.


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