# Garbage Fire



## apford (Apr 24, 2017)

That was a brutal test. I thought I was prepared, I took the 2016 NCEES practice exam the week before and got three wrong answers. On the actual test I had to straight up guess on like 10 questions. 

I literally flipped the test booklet over three or four times to make sure I had been given the right test. "Surely this isn't a TFS question, I must have the wrong book! .... no? Uh-oh."

Anyone else feel blindsided by the content of the test? General feelings only, no specifics!

*Mods - if this is too close to the line please delete.*


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## starquest (Apr 24, 2017)

Very sorry to hear.   But straight up guess for 10 questions isn't too bad. How did you feel on the others? 

I'm really curious to hear how different the exam was for the re-takers due to the new format.


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## ercan (Apr 24, 2017)

I have the same feelings about the actual exam. I took HVAC exam. Especially, Morning Session was very tricky and I saw unexpected questions based on their difficulties when you compare with NCEES sample exam.


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## apford (Apr 24, 2017)

starquest said:


> Very sorry to hear.   But straight up guess for 10 questions isn't too bad. How did you feel on the others?


Mixed bag. Some I know I got right, some I'm not so sure about. I know there were a few questions that I may have been more comfortable with if i could have had time to work them another way, or double check my results. As it was, I worked to the buzzer on the morning session and only had half an hour at the end of the afternoon session. I was too drained to do any actual focused review of my work at the end of the afternoon session though, so I spent that time staring off into the distance with a forlorn look on my face.


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## engineerdude123 (Apr 24, 2017)

I took the MDM.

The morning I feel pretty good about.  There were only a couple of problems that I had to make educated guesses on.  I am sure I made some silly mistakes but overall I went into lunch feeling rather confident.

The afternoon portion was much, much more challenging.  Many of the problems were extremely complex.  I am sure in some cases you didn't need all of the info to solve the problem (which NCEES seems to like to do) but 6 hours into a test it can be hard to sort through the fluff and I found myself taking wrong paths to answer problems that ended up wasting valuable time.  I probably answered 20 to 25 questions with decent confidence, 10 questions with educated guesses, and the last 5 I just picked C.

That being said, this is my second time taking the exam.  The last time I took it I felt much less confident and scored a 67% which I assume means that I was 2 or 3 questions short of passing.  The general feel that I am getting from most is that this was a pretty tough version of the test so I assume/hope that there should be another healthy curve to achieve that magical 70%.


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## J_MEC (Apr 24, 2017)

Engineerdude123, I felt the exact opposite about the Machine Design &amp; Materials (MDM) exam.

The morning I felt was much tougher and was very general/extremely broad. Although neither the morning/afternoon had any questions where I felt I needed to straight up guess, I did have a fair amount of educated guesses in the morning. I felt like there were some really out there/nebulous questions in that you either know this or you don't. I think in the morning there was around 28-30 that I answered with decent confidence, around 5-6 that involved some educated guessing, and another 5-6 I am pretty sure I got wrong/fell for the traps.  

The afternoon went very smoothly for me. I don't think there was a single question I said, let me come back to this one later. There were only 2 that I felt were kind of tricky in the wording and pretty sure I got wrong. There are another 2 or 3 that were educated guesses/afraid I might have fell for the traps after thinking about it later.

I felt similar to apford about the morning exam. A little blindsided by the content of the test. With hindsight I kind of wish I had signed up for PPIs exam cafe to answer some non-quantitative questions. I read the PPI exam cafe isn't that great, but I think it would have helped me solidify some things.

I hope we all passed! It was a much more stressful/brutal exam than I was anticipating. I hope I am just overthinking it.


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## engineerdude123 (Apr 24, 2017)

MEC_SBU said:


> Engineerdude123, I felt the exact opposite about the Machine Design &amp; Materials (MDM) exam.
> 
> The morning I felt was much tougher and was very general/extremely broad. Although neither the exam/afternoon had any questions where I felt I needed to straight up guess, I did have a fair amount of educated guesses in the morning. I felt like there were some really out there/nebulous questions in that you either know this or you don't. I think in the morning there was around 28-30 that I answered with decent confidence, around 5-6 that involved some educated guessing, and another 5-6 I am pretty sure I got wrong/fell for the traps.
> 
> ...


Hmmm that is quite interesting!  I am fairly sure that fatigue played a significant role in some of my struggles in the afternoon and I am sure if I took it again with a fresh mind there would be some problems I would not struggle as much with.

Are there different versions of the exam given out?  FWIW I have talked to 4 other people who took the MDM and you are the first who has said that the afternoon was easier.


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## J_MEC (Apr 24, 2017)

I do not think there are different versions of the exam given out, although I don't know for sure. I have not talked to anybody about the MDM exam as I didn't know anyone at the exam site or anybody personally taking it this session. This forum has been my only real support for the exam.

In general I am not a morning person, so I am wondering if that had something to do with it?


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## engineerdude123 (Apr 24, 2017)

J_MEC said:


> I do not think there are different versions of the exam given out, although I don't know for sure. I have not talked to anybody about the MDM exam as I didn't know anyone at the exam site or anybody personally taking it this session. This forum has been my only real support for the exam.
> 
> In general I am not a morning person, so I am wondering if that had something to do with it?


It could be.  The morning definitely had some broader questions but I didn't have any problem finding solutions to them with the resources I brought.  But yeah without having the necessary books you would be SOL.

The afternoon had a lot more quantitative problems IMO which (at least for me) required some harder thinking and my brain was already reaching fried mode so that didn't go together well.  Looking back now with a clear mind, I know the approach to use to solve most but I just couldn't connect the dots at the time.

I think it will really boil down to what the cut score is.  Last October it was in the high 40s.


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## justin-hawaii (Apr 24, 2017)

I feel that when I took the exam, I had no basis for how I did and I wish I had this forum and your discussions at the time.  I want to put your discussions into a survey, such that we could share the data with the next set of test takers.  Please take the survey, when you have some time, so we can help out the next set of test takers.  The survey is only 7 questions and I am open to suggestions on how to better improve the survey.  

Machine Design &amp; Materials:  https://goo.gl/forms/yrfjMD3EznbL7QcG2

HVAC &amp; Refrigeration:  https://goo.gl/forms/4zuYXveCzswI70d93

Thermal &amp; Fluids:  https://goo.gl/forms/zaEMML2Dy0IN9p9Y2

Congratulations everyone on being done with the exam!


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## berk10 (Apr 24, 2017)

I took the MDM portion and felt like the morning was a lot of conceptual/broad topics that weren't necessarily hard - but if you didn't have a resource saying the exact answer, there were always 2 that boiled down and either could have been the answer. Concerns me how many of them could really go either way (for me) in the morning.  

The afternoon was definitely more difficult for me, but I really welcomed being able to grind out some answers and work the problems. There was a stretch of about 5 problems towards the very end where the material seemed completely off the wall - to the point where I had never heard of what they were trying to reference. Those problems I couldn't even make an educated guess at...


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## amats42 (Apr 24, 2017)

Anyone take the TFS?

I felt that the problems that were really emphasized in the practice exam weren't all that tested in the real exam which was a huge bummer. Definitely felt that the new breadth is deceptive as they threw in a number of other disciplines than pure TFS. Overall, not that confident especially if people have failed in the past with ~70%


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## justin-hawaii (Apr 24, 2017)

berk10, it seems like more people were confident in the morning portion as opposed to the afternoon portion of the exam.  I only have 3 responses right now, but hopefully we get more feedback.  

amats42,  according to the survey, it seems like the cooling/heating topic was a struggle for most people.  Most people felt like they only guessed on less than 15 problems on the afternoon portion.  It was a mixed response on the morning session.  I only have 3 responses right now, but hopefully we get more feedback.  

I have 19 responses on the HVAC exam.

Machine Design &amp; Materials:  https://goo.gl/forms/yrfjMD3EznbL7QcG2

HVAC &amp; Refrigeration:  https://goo.gl/forms/4zuYXveCzswI70d93

Thermal &amp; Fluids:  https://goo.gl/forms/zaEMML2Dy0IN9p9Y2


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## J_MEC (Apr 24, 2017)

engineerdude123, berk10, What references did you bring? All I brought was the MERM, Shigley's, FE Reference Handbook and Machinery's Handbook. I also had a binder and some practice problems books(NCEES practice exam, Six Minute Solutions, PPI MERM Companion and PPI practice exam) but I never opened them. My references didn't seem to cover everything that was asked for the morning, at least not completely and definitively. They did give me what I think I needed to make an educated guess, but not to where I feel 100% confident in the answer. 

Justin-hawaii, I think the survey for the MDM looks good. I think that it might be a cool idea to add a question whether or not you passed and have people fill it out after they get their results. It'd be interesting to me at least to see how many people felt very confident walking out of the exam and then failed.


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## engineerdude123 (Apr 24, 2017)

J_MEC said:


> engineerdude123, berk10, What references did you bring? All I brought was the MERM, Shigley's, FE Reference Handbook and Machinery's Handbook. I also had a binder and some practice problems books(NCEES practice exam, Six Minute Solutions, PPI MERM Companion and PPI practice exam) but I never opened them. My references didn't seem to cover everything that was asked for the morning, at least not completely and definitively. They did give me what I think I needed to make an educated guess, but not to where I feel 100% confident in the answer.
> 
> Justin-hawaii, I think the survey for the MDM looks good. I think that it might be a cool idea to add a question whether or not you passed and have people fill it out after they get their results. It'd be interesting to me at least to see how many people felt very confident walking out of the exam and then failed.


-Various binders of notes and problems that were made through Dr. Tom's Class which I signed up for. (Used these the most)

-MERM  (Used a few times)

-MERM Practice Problems (Didn't even open)

-6-minute solutions (Didn't even open)

-2 NCEES practice exams (Opened once)

-Kennedy's PE review book (Used a few times)

-Shigley's (Didn't even open)

-Roark's  (Didn't even open)

-Machinist Handbook (Used a few times)

-EMJ Blue Book  (Didn't even open)

-Engineering Unit Conversion Book  (Used a few times)


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## justin-hawaii (Apr 24, 2017)

J_MEC, I will email everyone who took the survey to answer the pass/fail question after we get the results.  Thank you for the suggestion.  

Machine Design &amp; Materials (4 responses so far):  https://goo.gl/forms/yrfjMD3EznbL7QcG2

HVAC &amp; Refrigeration (22 responses so far):  https://goo.gl/forms/4zuYXveCzswI70d93

Thermal &amp; Fluids (6 responses so far):  https://goo.gl/forms/zaEMML2Dy0IN9p9Y2


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## berk10 (Apr 24, 2017)

J_MEC said:


> engineerdude123, berk10, What references did you bring? All I brought was the MERM, Shigley's, FE Reference Handbook and Machinery's Handbook. I also had a binder and some practice problems books(NCEES practice exam, Six Minute Solutions, PPI MERM Companion and PPI practice exam) but I never opened them. My references didn't seem to cover everything that was asked for the morning, at least not completely and definitively. They did give me what I think I needed to make an educated guess, but not to where I feel 100% confident in the answer.
> 
> Justin-hawaii, I think the survey for the MDM looks good. I think that it might be a cool idea to add a question whether or not you passed and have people fill it out after they get their results. It'd be interesting to me at least to see how many people felt very confident walking out of the exam and then failed.


J_MEC, I had the exact references with the exception of the FE Handbook and having the PE version. I also had a unit conversion book that I found pretty helpful and I did reference the NCEES practice exam and 6MS for a couple of problems.


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## aakrusen (Apr 25, 2017)

Took the MD&amp;M, I felt like there were too many questions that weren't covered in my study material.  What I mean is, there were questions on obscure areas that were referenced in the material as maybe a paragraph or two, but not in major areas or not in much depth.  I was surprised how little there was in questions that required some "working out" at the same time I was surprised how many questions were looking for a word answer, not a mathematical answer.

Here's what I brought and their usage:

-Binder of notes and problems that I made from 6MS, 2001, 2011, and 2016 NCEES Practice Exams, as well as what I put together from the MERM. (Used these the most)

-MERM  (Used a lot)

-MERM Practice Problems (Once or twice)

-6 Minute Solutions (2-3 times)

-3 different NCEES practice exams (2-3 times)

-Machinist Handbook (2-3 times)

-Engineering Unit Conversion Book  (Used a lot)

I did not bring:

Shigley's (2 different Editions)

2008 NCEES Practice Exam (essentailly the same as the 2011, but the book is worn out)

Three other generic PE study books, they're so bad I won't even give them credit here.  But to be fair, they're old and there's a reason I got each one for less $15.

Pro tip:  Get you all your hand notes and other study material, that you would have put in a binder, made into a Spiral Bound binder.  A regular binder takes up too much real estate not only when you're studying, but when you take the test too.  The down side is that it's not easy to add to it once it's bound, so just get it done a few days before the exam.  You can get it done for cheap at Fedex/Kinkos.


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## Saad85 (Apr 25, 2017)

justin-hawaii said:


> I feel that when I took the exam, I had no basis for how I did and I wish I had this forum and your discussions at the time.  I want to put your discussions into a survey, such that we could share the data with the next set of test takers.  Please take the survey, when you have some time, so we can help out the next set of test takers.  The survey is only 7 questions and I am open to suggestions on how to better improve the survey.
> 
> Machine Design &amp; Materials:  https://goo.gl/forms/yrfjMD3EznbL7QcG2
> 
> ...


I have already participated in the survey and I believe that engineering pro guide for the PE thermal and fluid exam is the most valuable referance for the PE exam since it gives you a clear path for the studying and narrow the topics that you need for the studying


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## Hugh Jass (Apr 25, 2017)

ehat references did the HVAC people bring?


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## apford (Apr 25, 2017)

amats42 said:


> Anyone take the TFS?
> 
> I felt that the problems that were really emphasized in the practice exam weren't all that tested in the real exam which was a huge bummer. Definitely felt that the new breadth is deceptive as they threw in a number of other disciplines than pure TFS. Overall, not that confident especially if people have failed in the past with ~70%


Yeah, I took the TFS and I agree. There were subjects that were the emphasis of the practice test that were completely absent on the actual exam. That threw me for a loop, I feel like I was back on my heels for the entire test because of that. 

I barely used any of my notes, the problems that were on the materials I studied I knew enough without having to look them up. The stuff I didn't study I was lost on. The MREM didn't seem to be any help deciphering those problems either. 

I hate feeling like it came down to how well I guessed vs. everyone else who took the exam. Even if I end up passing this time, it kind of feels like I didn't accomplish as much as I wanted. I wanted to walk out of the test knowing I killed it, instead I feel like I failed miserably. Hope this is all just post-test anxiety.


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## Viper5 (Apr 25, 2017)

I took TFS as well.  Thought morning was pretty difficult, afternoon was not as bad but still found myself guessing on several.  I too wanted to feel confident coming out of that test.  Now, I'm dreading the wait because I know if I don't pass it will be just barely which makes it that much worse.  Spent a good 250 hours in preparation including the practice exam.  I suspected this new format would bite everyone and judging by the comments I was not mistaken.


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## Nevill24 (Apr 25, 2017)

Agree with everyone on the TFS.  The practice exam definitely emphasized different material than the actual exam.  However I will say the exam did stick to the spec.  Unfortunately this material was not covered well in any of the practice material that I used during studying.

Based on Justin's survey I should feel extremely confident as I only guessed on 1 problem on the exam, but for some reason I don't feel that way. Overall I thought the exam was "tricky" and there were a good bit of problems where I could have fell for the trap.


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## apford (Apr 25, 2017)

Nevill24 said:


> However I will say the exam did stick to the spec.


Yeah, I'll agree to that. I should have taken a closer look at the actual spec and tried to incorporate some additional studying into my routine instead of trusting the review course I took to cover everything. I think the review class is mostly based on the topics covered in the practice exam, that should have tipped me off to the need to take a closer look instead of letting it lull me into a false sense of being prepared.


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## RayEng84 (Apr 25, 2017)

I took the Machine Design &amp; Materials.  I found it to be harder than all previous samples tests.  Although I guess anything is harder when the solutions aren't in the back of the book.  I flat out guessed on 1 question.  Then tried to use judgement on about 15 questions.  I thought both the AM &amp; PM were equally tough, but my endurance faded in the PM part for sure.  All the questions were appropriate for the test, but a lot were pretty obscure.


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## turbodudey (Apr 25, 2017)

I took MD&amp;M. Overall I liked the test. I agree it was pretty different than the NCEES practice exams, but in a good way. For the most part, I liked the questions and felt they were applicable to what I had studied. There were 3 or 4 questions in the morning that I wasn't 100% sure about, but I finished about an hour early, so I had time to go back and check those. Same for the afternoon - about 2 or 3 that I wasn't sure about. Didn't have quite as much extra time in the afternoon though. Only about 15-20 minutes to go back and double check everything.

Neat idea with the survey above. It's interesting to see other people's perspectives.


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## JHW 3d (Apr 25, 2017)

turbodudey said:


> I took MD&amp;M. Overall I liked the test. I agree it was pretty different than the NCEES practice exams, but in a good way. For the most part, I liked the questions and felt they were applicable to what I had studied. There were 3 or 4 questions in the morning that I wasn't 100% sure about, but I finished about an hour early, so I had time to go back and check those. Same for the afternoon - about 2 or 3 that I wasn't sure about. Didn't have quite as much extra time in the afternoon though. Only about 15-20 minutes to go back and double check everything.Neat idea with the survey above. It's interesting to see other people's perspectives.


Sounds like you rocked it. For the benefit of others, especially given the new exam format, which materials did you use for your studying?


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## landolakes (Apr 25, 2017)

I agree with TF... some of the "support knowledge" threw me off.

My guess is thaT since this was first test of new spec that they tossed in those "what the hell" problems to gauge how ppl will do and use that to refine the future tests.

my first run in morning i had 23 that i did no problem... 5-7 were researchable and i answered best to my abilities... others i did educated guess.

afternoon was much smoother, at least 27i ran through...another 5 im decent about and rest were guesses.

Only reason i end up guessing is i was either fried and couldnt think or just couldnt locate source material.

Lets hope for the GREEN PASS!


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## amats42 (Apr 25, 2017)

Glad to know others felt exactly as I did! Ya, I guess it's harsh to say that the material didn't match the stated breadth, but a few questions felt like they were coming out of left field.

I definitely made guesses/educated guesses on more problems than I expected to. Good luck everyone.


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## spacebanjo (Apr 26, 2017)

I felt pretty good about passing TFS but feel it was a lot harder than practice exam. I finished the morning in 2 hrs and was able to go back and check each problem - I found 4 errors mostly stupid math or units related -lots of traps. The afternoon I finished in 3hr and checked some of the hard ones but was too tired to check all of them effectively.  I"m sure I made some more silly mistakes in the afternoon. 

One interesting strategy I used was using NCEES "tricks" to confirm I had the right answer. For example the multiple choice answers are often silly mistakes apart. If I got an answer I wasn't sure on sometimes I could see the other multiple choice answers were my correct answer but in the wrong units or forgot to divide by a constant. Thus, the 'traps' confirmed I had the correct answer.


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## Jeepmaster5000 (Apr 27, 2017)

Well, as a first time test taker, I feel like I performed decently on the TFS test.  I seemed to finish both the morning and afternoon with 30-45 minutes to spare and was able to research a few questions I left blank or felt uneasy about and find an answer that appeared correct.  Although, as I noticed with the practice exams, I think it will really come down to whether I was sloppy with units or simple things like including an efficiency in my calcs.  The test definitely had a topic or two that I discounted since I assumed that only one or two questions would be on the test (which was apparently way off).  

Did any other test takers find the test, in a weird sadistic way, somewhat fun?  For me, I enjoyed it simply because I knew I would not have to do a postmortem analysis on the test.  You know, checking answers, figuring out where I went wrong, determining the correct course of action to avoid a mistake in the future, etc.  Something liberating about arriving at an answer, quick check of the math and units, selecting the answer and moving on to never think about that question again.


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## P-E (Apr 27, 2017)

Jeepers, Fun??? Holy mother of gad what are you talking about!  When I took it I felt like my brain was put through a blender and all I wanted to do was sleep and forget the whole thing.  Nightmares for weeks, followed by the sh!ts, the shingles and other unmentionables.


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## Jeepmaster5000 (Apr 28, 2017)

P-E, I don't know why I derived some sick pleasure out of it.  I found it very strange.  Perhaps it was simply the knowledge that with each question completed, I was one step closer to being free from studying, at least for a couple of months.  Perhaps it was because I knew of a great brew pub fairly close to the test center and the thought of heading home with a frosty growler of a great sour.


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## landolakes (Apr 28, 2017)

Jeepmaster5000 said:


> P-E, I don't know why I derived some sick pleasure out of it.  I found it very strange.  Perhaps it was simply the knowledge that with each question completed, I was one step closer to being free from studying, at least for a couple of months.  Perhaps it was because I knew of a great brew pub fairly close to the test center and the thought of heading home with a frosty growler of a great sour.


Argghh you are the dude in college who ruins the curve for everyone.


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## P-E (Apr 28, 2017)

Jeepmaster5000 said:


> P-E, I don't know why I derived some sick pleasure out of it.  I found it very strange.  Perhaps it was simply the knowledge that with each question completed, I was one step closer to being free from studying, at least for a couple of months.  Perhaps it was because I knew of a great brew pub fairly close to the test center and the thought of heading home with a frosty growler of a great sour.


I can understand the beer part.  More of an IPA guy, but some sours I find okay.


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## Jeepmaster5000 (Apr 29, 2017)

P-E:  I never could develop a taste for an IPA.  Personally, my favorite beers are hefeweizens.  But, I feel life sour beers are on the same order as fine single malt scotch.  A rare treat for a great accomplishment or failure!  The P.E. test seemed to fit the bill.

landolakes:  Well, I was accused of ruining the curve in two classes in college.  Although, one was a quantum physics course that Electrical Engineers were required to take and I took it as an elective.  I feel like the EE's were very confused and angry that a MechE was killing the curve, especially since I didn't need to take the class.  The class was awful, but pissing off EE's gave me a similar sadistic pleasure.  EE's are the worst.


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## landolakes (Apr 30, 2017)

Im an EE, taking the ME due to what my job duties are. 

I also ask for A1 at fancy steakhouses.


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## turbodudey (May 1, 2017)

JHW 3d said:


> Sounds like you rocked it. For the benefit of others, especially given the new exam format, which materials did you use for your studying?


I hope so. Primarily used the PPI materials (Lindeburg). Read thru all the chapters in the MERM, then did most of the practice problems - about 400 problems. Then did all the six minute solutions problems, and finally 2 NCEES practice exams. It took about 2 1/2 months to get thru all the material.

Oh, I had a subscription to PPI's Exam Café (included with the bundle of books I got from them). So I went thru all the problems they had on the topics that were relevant - materials, vibrations, statics, dynamics, etc. I didn't mess with the HVAC, thermodynamics, fluids, or heat transfer materials very much.


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## J_MEC (May 5, 2017)

turbodudey said:


> Oh, I had a subscription to PPI's Exam Café (included with the bundle of books I got from them). So I went thru all the problems they had on the topics that were relevant - materials, vibrations, statics, dynamics, etc. I didn't mess with the HVAC, thermodynamics, fluids, or heat transfer materials very much.


What did you think of the PPI exam cafe?

I know the questions on the exam cafe aren't quantitative but the practice exams, MERM companion and Six Minute Solutions didn't have a lot of non-quantitative practice and were almost all quantitative. I felt like I didn't struggle with any questions that were quantitative. I felt like the non-quantitative questions on the actual exam were where I struggled the most. At least they were the ones that gave me the most headache because they seemed so obscure which is likely due to my lack of practice.

There were a lot more non-quantitative questions than I originally thought there would be on the exam. I think that having that exam cafe practice might have helped. If I fail, it is something I am definitely going to consider adding to my exam prep.


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