# Pot meet Kettle



## Ramnares P.E. (Aug 14, 2018)

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/13/nyregion/sexual-harassment-nyu-female-professor.html?hp&amp;amp;action=click&amp;amp;pgtype=Homepage&amp;amp;clickSource=story-heading&amp;amp;module=first-column-region&amp;amp;region=top-news&amp;amp;WT.nav=top-news


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## Supe (Aug 14, 2018)

It's so textbook, it's almost hard to believe.  I'm a bit stunned that even after the university found her guilty, they only gave her a year of leave rather than termination.


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## Master slacker (Aug 14, 2018)

See any story of a female teacher and male student.  The female teachers receive relatively little punishment compared to the male teacher / female student situations.


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## P-E (Aug 14, 2018)

Supe said:


> It's so textbook, it's almost hard to believe.  I'm a bit stunned that even after the university found her guilty, they only gave her a year of leave rather than termination.


I can't believe his name is nimrod.


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## Supe (Aug 14, 2018)

P-E said:


> I can't believe his name is nimrod.


And I can't believe a "German and comparative literature" teacher is "world renowned," yet here we are.


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## jeb6294 (Aug 14, 2018)

If it was a male prof. he would have been fired immediately upon being accused, they wouldn’t have even waited until the investigation was complete.  #metoo would probably demand that the dean of the school be fired too because obviously they must have known about it and let it happen.


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## YMZ PE (Aug 14, 2018)

What a friggin' creep. Strange how the fact that she isn't interested in men makes it even creepier.


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## goodal (Aug 15, 2018)

How does that work?  A lesbo turned on by a gay dude.  I dare say she is confused.


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## Dleg (Aug 16, 2018)

And the similarities to cases like Harvey Weinstein include the repulsiveness of the perpetrator.... yuck.

Nimrod.... heh heh


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 16, 2018)

goodal said:


> How does that work?  A lesbo turned on by a gay dude.  I dare say she is confused.


Physical attraction or desire is not a requisite for sexual harassment.


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## goodal (Aug 17, 2018)

good point...you sexy beast.


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Aug 20, 2018)




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## Ramnares P.E. (Aug 21, 2018)

^ The hypocrisy is strong with that one.


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## Dleg (Aug 21, 2018)

Another one:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/20/opinions/asia-argento-sexual-assault-allegations-alaimo/index.html
 



> On Sunday, The New York Times reported that Italian actress Asia Argento, whose allegations that she was sexually assaulted by Harvey Weinstein helped launch the #MeToo movement, has been accused of sexual assault herself.
> 
> According to documents that the Times obtained through encrypted email from an unidentified source, after Argento made her public accusations against Weinstein, she was accused of assaulting the actor and musician Jimmy Bennett and later paid Bennett $380,000. The Times reported that, at the time of the alleged assault, Bennett had just turned 17 -- and was therefore under California's age of consent, which is 18 -- while Argento was 37.


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## csb (Aug 22, 2018)

Hellooo, sex offender registry!


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## Supe (Aug 22, 2018)

csb said:


> Hellooo, sex offender registry!


It's like Tinder, but with a higher success rate!


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## csb (Aug 22, 2018)

Supe said:


> It's like Tinder, but with a higher success rate!


Swipe left! SWIPE LEFT!


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## jeb6294 (Aug 23, 2018)

Not that I had much respect for most of the whole #metoo (pound me too :rotflmao: ) group before, but this does nothing but make them look more and more like a bunch of hypocritical publicity hounds.

1. CNN says there's a picture of them in bed, but she says that clearly he's lying and only wanted money.

2. When it's a guy being accused, they're supposed to be fired, castrated and thrown in prison immediately whether there's any evidence of wrongdoing or not, but now that women are being exposed, we're supposed to "be gentle" because "none of us know the truth of the situation".


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## YMZ PE (Aug 23, 2018)

jeb6294 said:


> When it's a guy being accused, they're supposed to be fired, castrated and thrown in prison immediately whether there's any evidence of wrongdoing or not, but now that women are being exposed, we're supposed to "be gentle" because "none of us know the truth of the situation".


Not all of us who support the movement feel this way. It's kind of unfair to discredit the merit of the entire movement because of some very loud hypocrites.


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## jeb6294 (Aug 23, 2018)

Except that seems to be the mantra for the entire movement, "welp, she said he did it so obviously it must be true".


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## leggo PE (Aug 23, 2018)

Shouldn't the MeToo movement apply to everyone? All those who perpetrate others should be held accountable, and I give credit to anyone and everyone who comes forward, and discredit those who deny that they have or could have or might have perpetrated anyone in whatever capacity.

But it's really hard to deny that certain groups (gender, race, and sexual identity) are apparently targeted more than others. This is just what we know based on those who've come forward. I'm sure there are many more people out there who still don't feel safe coming forward.

Does any of this mean you should deny legitimacy to everyone? I certainly do not think so.


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## Violator (Aug 23, 2018)

Did Urban Meyer get off easy or too harsh? How do you prove hearsay?


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## Dleg (Aug 23, 2018)

My biggest problem with the meetoo movement is it's blatantly unconstitutional.  The accused are assumed guilty until proven innocent, and lives and careers are being destroyed without any due process. I am sure that many of them truly are guilty, but that's not how our society was built to work. Otherwise, lynchings would be a daily activity on the streets of America, for every popular crime, and it would be celebrated. But for the past year, you just couldn't come out and say this without being accused yourself of being a misogynist. Unfortunately, it will now take some women having _their_ lives destroyed by unproven accusations to drive that basic point home, and maybe reign in the mob mentality a little.


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## MA_PE (Aug 23, 2018)

Dleg said:


> My biggest problem with the meetoo movement is it's blatantly unconstitutional.  The accused are assumed guilty until proven innocent, and lives and careers are being destroyed without any due process. I am sure that many of them truly are guilty, but that's not how our society was built to work. Otherwise, lynchings would be a daily activity on the streets of America, for every popular crime, and it would be celebrated. But for the past year, you just couldn't come out and say this without being accused yourself of being a misogynist. Unfortunately, it will now take some women having _their_ lives destroyed by unproven accusations to drive that basic point home, and maybe reign in the mob mentality a little.


the underlined could be used to describe any of a number of current "movements".  we have the internet and human nature to blame.  Everybody and their brother (or sister) has the ability to post, comment, tweet, etc. and "news" site jump to post the most hyperbolic headlines and controversial events to get "clicks".  The comments clamor for "action":  Fire him!, Boycott! and things are more frequently tried in the court of public opinion regardless of the facts getting in the way.  In other words, people suck.


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## Dleg (Aug 23, 2018)

People do suck, but I don't think it is really all that different than the times in which the Constitution was written.  The only thing that has changed is the form of the media, but the hype and hysteria are all the same. In fact, "people suck" was the driving motivation behind writing the Constitution as they did.


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## csb (Aug 23, 2018)

It's about power. For years women were the ones who were sexually assaulted or harassed at work and they kept quiet because they didn't want to lose their jobs. They were discredited if they said something, because Mr. So-an-so is a fine upstanding character and you could ruin his life if you say anything. Even today it happens, where a woman will have to put up with blatant sexual harassment or advances and she'll need to laugh it off so that no one isolates her and labels her as a problem. 

So the #metoo movement was a pendulum swing where finally women had power. It felt good to have men be the ones instantly discredited. It felt good to have all the power. 

We'll eventually, hopefully fall somewhere in the middle, but I know it's hard to see another group in power if you're part of the group that's always been in power.


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## Dleg (Aug 23, 2018)

I understand that, but it's not how our form of government is supposed to work. There are protections that are supposed to be given to everyone. Yes, there are many groups in our society that have gotten a less than fair deal. But one great thing about America is that it is always improving itself and correcting past wrongs (maybe in fits and starts and with occasional setbacks). But wrighting a wrong should not include the element of revenge. That's not forward progress.


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## Master slacker (Aug 23, 2018)

Enter stories like this:

https://www.theadvocate.com/baton_rouge/sports/lsu/article_0a077af8-a32f-11e8-9d15-efd5e8fb5bd8.html



> The woman accusing LSU football player Drake Davis of punching and grabbing her by the throat on multiple occasions is retracting the allegations, according to Davis' attorney.
> 
> Marci Blaize said her client’s accuser provided a statement retracting the allegations to her as well as law enforcement.
> 
> ...


Now, I'm not saying he is an angel... but who do we believe?  The accuser or the accused?  Either way, he was sitting in jail because of a story that was later retracted.  I lived with the football team my freshman year and I KNOW many of them do less than legal things.  But this guy, assumed guilty already, is suspended from the team.  I'm fairly sure this is not the first instance of false (maybe) reporting of a "victim".

How is it that society can destroy or severely impact someone's livelihood based on one side of the story?  Guilty until proven innocent or Innocent until proven guilty?  And does innocent include *reasonable* doubt?  These "movements" started with high-profile people, but it's affecting less-than-notable people (sometimes innocent) because of "believe the victim (accuser) regardless".  It's a problem when someone lies.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 23, 2018)

^^^ The converse to that are the players who do the "less than legal" things and have several layers of protection in place by the school because they are the money-makers.  It makes coming forward insanely difficult because it pits young college women against well-funded and very well guarded perpetrators who will absolutely ruin the woman's life simply for saying something.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 23, 2018)

One thing to keep in mind as well, is that several of these "retractions" aren't because they are false accusations, but rather because the well-protected perpetrator is utilizing their resources to persuade the victim to do it.  Hush money, threats, harassment, etc.


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## wilheldp_PE (Aug 23, 2018)

csb said:


> It's about power. For years women were the ones who were sexually assaulted or harassed at work and they kept quiet because they didn't want to lose their jobs. They were discredited if they said something, because Mr. So-an-so is a fine upstanding character and you could ruin his life if you say anything. Even today it happens, where a woman will have to put up with blatant sexual harassment or advances and she'll need to laugh it off so that no one isolates her and labels her as a problem.
> 
> So the #metoo movement was a pendulum swing where finally women had power. It felt good to have men be the ones instantly discredited. It felt good to have all the power.
> 
> We'll eventually, hopefully fall somewhere in the middle, but I know it's hard to see another group in power if you're part of the group that's always been in power.


I was going to post that very thing until I clicked over to this page.  Everything is a pendulum...politics, societal norms, labor v. management, etc.  It's just that women have been repressed for longer than minorities in this country that is driving the #metoo movement.  I understand the motivations behind the movement, but I also agree that the pendulum swing might be a little too violent (i.e., people having their lives and careers destroyed based solely on accusations).  To use an entirely inappropriate phrase to describe the situation, everybody needs to calm their tits a little bit.  The Harvey Weinsteins of the world need to have their lives destroyed.  There is enough evidence presented against him in the court of public opinion that he doesn't really deserve his day in court.  Same with Bill Cosby.  But this shit needs to end where one woman accuses a man of sexual harassment, and his career is destroyed without any proof or defense.  Otherwise, we have the equivalent of the Salem Witch Trials in reverse.  If said man is tried and convicted of said abuse, by all means, destroy his career/life (which, coincidentally, is where the "witch trials" comparison falls apart because the courts were in on it).  He's not worthy of it anyway.


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## csb (Aug 23, 2018)

No doubt false accusations are awful. Any big movement has this kind of thing happen. I don't want this woman's actions, which are awful and illegal, to discredit every woman who has truthfully come forward about heinous things that happened to them. The tenor of the thread was "all women must be liars because this one is and women are only talking about assault because it's trendy."


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## Violator (Aug 23, 2018)

It would be nice if they would actually charge the ones making false accusations.


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## wilheldp_PE (Aug 24, 2018)

csb said:


> No doubt false accusations are awful. Any big movement has this kind of thing happen. I don't want this woman's actions, which are awful and illegal, to discredit every woman who has truthfully come forward about heinous things that happened to them. The tenor of the thread was "all women just be liars because this one is and women are only talking about assault because it's trendy."


My mind wandered and that previous post took a U-turn from my initial intent, which was to agree with you.  Stories like the ones posted in this thread expose hypocrisy of some individuals, but they shouldn't discredit the whole movement.


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## MA_PE (Aug 24, 2018)

But people being people it's sometimes hard to distinguish between "abuse" or "harassment" and a consensual relationship gone sour.  there is always the case where women use their feminine wiles to manipulate a guy/situation to their own advantage and when/if it doesn't turnout as they planned, turn the tables and claim they are the victim.  This has been going on since the beginning of time because men are men and women are women and the sheep are glad for it.


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## jeb6294 (Aug 24, 2018)

For those who don't know, "me too" has been around since before there was such thing as a hashtag.  The problem, or what I see as the problem at least, is that the media has decided that a few celebrities are now the "face" of #metoo including, ironically, Asia Argento.  When Asia Argento is accused, the message from the face of #metoo is that we're supposed to leave her alone because we don't know the whole story.  Their stance has now become, fight sexual harassment, but only if it fits into our "girl power" agenda.


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## Szar (Aug 24, 2018)

jeb6294 said:


> For those who don't know, "me too" has been around since before there was such thing as a hashtag.  The problem, or what I see as the problem at least, is that the media has decided that a few celebrities are now the "face" of #metoo including, ironically, Asia Argento.  When Asia Argento is accused, the message from the face of #metoo is that we're supposed to leave her alone because we don't know the whole story.  Their stance has now become, fight sexual harassment, but only if it fits into our "girl power" agenda.


This I think is an overall bigger issue then just the #metoo movement though.  In general, we assign pretty and marketable faces (male and female) to rally the common folk behind.  Then *que surprise*  we find out that the individual (whether it be a sports star, politician, religious leader, etc.) is revealed to be a mere mortal with skeletons in the closet and suddenly the entire movement becomes under question.

I have no idea who these women are.  I also don't care.  No one should have to suffer in the work place or in general from these acts so who cares if some random individual, even if it was one of the "founders" of the movement.  But perhaps its the human condition.  I know I was gleefully happy (albeit disappointed in myself) to see the hypocrisy in action and front stage.


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## goodal (Aug 24, 2018)

As Dleg said, mob mentality is my problem with this.  People with pitchforks and torches are rarely thinking rationally.  Yes, ANYONE that actually abuses or harasses someone else should be punished according to the severity of their infractions, but what we have seen over the last year (peoples lives ruined because of a twitter accusation) is wrong.


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## Dleg (Aug 29, 2018)

Yes, and to clarify, if they are guilty then I agree their lives should be ruined. But they are entitled to same constitutional protections that anyone else is, first, and that includes the right to due process, a fair trial, and the presumption of innocence until proven guilty. What we have been seeing is the opposite, and that is very dangerous.


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## leggo PE (Sep 28, 2018)

Here is an interesting study that took a look at the rate of false accusations of sexual assault "at a major Northeastern university over a 10-year period". 

If you don't want to read the study, here is the abstract:

"One of the most controversial disputes affecting the discourse related to violence against women is the dispute about the frequency of false allegations of sexual assault. In an effort to add clarity to the discourse, published research on false allegations is critiqued, and the results of a new study described. All cases (N = 136) of sexual assault reported to a major Northeastern university over a 10-year period are analyzed to determine the percentage of false allegations. Of the 136 cases of sexual assault reported over the 10-year period, 8 (5.9%) are coded as false allegations. These results, taken in the context of an examination of previous research, indicate that the prevalence of false allegations is between 2% and 10%."


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## jeb6294 (Sep 29, 2018)

I’ll admit, I didn’t read the whole thing top to bottom, but for hat I did read, you’re picking a quote that only portrays a part of the picture.

The article is from 8years ago.  With the way things are moving today, I’d be willing to bet all the numbers would be vastly different nowadays.

Yes, 5.9% were false reports, but you left out the part where only 35% of cases actually resulted in prosecution or disciplinary action.


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## leggo PE (Oct 1, 2018)

@jeb6294, I did not just pick a quote. I posted the abstract. Those words are what the authors of the study chose to best represent what their study is about.

Secondly, I understand the study is 8 years old. It also only took a look at cases at a specific unnamed university. But jI do not believe that just because more cases are being reported today, that anything about this study should be discounted.

Thirdly, what does the 35% of cases in disciplinary action have to say to this? I'd argue that this might have more to do with how sexual assault cases have been handled in this country, more than anything else.


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## Road Guy (Oct 1, 2018)

always believe women, 100% of the time , no questions asked!


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## frazil (Oct 1, 2018)

In the article false accusations are defined as instances where evidence has been found to show that no assault occurred.  The 35% of cases that resulted in disciplinary action found sufficient evidence to prosecute. That means in 59% of the cases there wasn’t enough evidence to say either way.  That’s the biggest hurdle with so many sexual assault cases. How do you not discount the victim while still maintaining innocent until proven guilty?


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## jeb6294 (Dec 20, 2018)

Just to briefly dig up the horse and get one more hit in, they just announced that local university has to pay $47k to a male student who was immediately expelled when a female student decided that she had been assaulted.

In case you forgot the backstory: guy meets girl on Tinder.  They talk for a while and meet once school starts, and as happens sometimes, one thing leads to another.  A month after the fact, girl decides that it wasn't actually consensual and that she was assaulted.  When she goes to the school to tell them about the awful night and how she doesn't feel safe on campus, the guy is immediately expelled.  When it's finally investigated by a neutral party (which took a little while because they also discovered that girl was screwing the cop who was supposed to be investigating) they found out that guy and girl hooked up consensually and that she felt guilty because she had a boyfriend at home.


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## jeb6294 (Dec 20, 2018)

Not trying to downplay the issue, but it just highlights my concern that punishments are being dealt based solely on an accusation.


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