# The basement boys



## Capt Worley PE (Mar 4, 2010)

Interesting editorial by George Will

http://www.newsweek.com/id/234248



> Current economic hardships have had what is called in constitutional law a "disparate impact": The crisis has not afflicted everyone equally. Although women are a majority of the workforce, perhaps as many as 80 percent of jobs lost were held by men. This injury to men is particularly unfortunate because it may exacerbate, and be exacerbated by, a culture of immaturity among the many young men who are reluctant to grow up.
> Increasingly, they are defecting from the meritocracy. Women now receive almost 58 percent of bachelor's degrees. This is why many colleges admit men with qualifications inferior to those of women applicants—which is one reason men have higher dropout rates. The Pew Research Center reports that 28 percent of wives between ages 30 and 44 have more education than their husbands, whereas only 19 percent of husbands in the same age group have more education than their wives. Twenty-three percent of men with some college education earn less than their wives. In law, medical, and doctoral programs, women are majorities or, if trends continue, will be.
> 
> In 1956, the median age of men marrying was 22.5. But between 1980 and 2004, the percentage of men reaching age 40 without marrying increased from 6 to 16.5. A recent study found that 55 percent of men 18 to 24 are living in their parents' homes, as are 13 percent of men 25 to 34, compared to 8 percent of women.
> ...


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## MA_PE (Mar 4, 2010)

I say "get a haircut and get a real job"


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## Fluvial (Mar 4, 2010)

_Cross says the large-scale entry of women into the workforce made many men feel marginalized, especially when men were simultaneously bombarded by new parenting theories, which cast fathers as their children's pals, or worse: In 1945, Parents magazine said a father should "keep yourself huggable" but show a son the "respect" owed a "business associate."_

1945 ?? Surely we're over the shock by now. Surely.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 4, 2010)

I found this statisitc amazing:



> But between 1980 and 2004, the percentage of men reaching age 40 without marrying increased from 6 to 16.5.


That's a pretty big increase.


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## EM_PS (Mar 4, 2010)

sounds like shrinky-dink twaddle to me...

but, I do agree there are 'issues' with the current generation (millenials or Y or wtf ever). My 18 yo stepdaughter has a bf about to turn 19. Kid doesn't own a car, works part-time at Papa John's (stepdaughter parttime at a restaurant) - between the two of them, they're lucky to see maybe 24hrs combined in a typical week. They're looking at apartments(!) - He paints little LOTR men &amp; is a rabid x-box'r. He doesnt wanna go to school cuz he doesnt want to take out loans for it. School &amp; stepdaughter = lost cause. He carps about his parents charging him rent (we dont...yet).

Lazy...sense of entitlement...poor handle on how the world really works...holding out for their perfect job made to order...Likelihood of either teen actually leaving home in foreseeable future = sqrt(-1)

i disagree that this is a male only trait in this generation, disagree that women in the work place somehow are responsible &amp; even disagree that a generation (boomers) are somehow responsible. Just appears to be the unfortunate evolution of cultural ethos in the western world


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 4, 2010)

I've heard it explained that a generation or two of men have been raised by women only with the babydaddy unaccounted for and thus have no 'man training.'


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## OSUguy98 (Mar 4, 2010)

EM_PS said:


> but, I do agree there are 'issues' with the current generation (millenials or Y or wtf ever).



I've always called it the "Entitlement Generation"... but I'm beginning to think it more of an "Entitlement Era" because it's not just the early 20s and younger that want everything free, without consequence, and without any work or $$...

Edit--- Or better yet, rather than the "Age of Enlightenment", the "Age of Entitlement"


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 4, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I've heard it explained that a generation or two of men have been raised by women only with the babydaddy unaccounted for and thus have no 'man training.'



Tyler Durden said something similar to this in Fight Club. I think we are raising/have been raising a generation full of a bunch of pansy asses. It has a lot to do with the fact that it's no longer "cool" to be tough. Hunting, fishing, football, boxing, etc. aren't in vogue. In organized sports, kids can't lose games, everyone gets a trophy, and they don't keep score.

All that being said, the most important thing to prevent the further emasculation of the American male is for dads to spend time with their sons, be engaged in their lives, and make sure to point out the bullshit that they are constantly being bombarded with from our culture. A healthy respect for discipline, God, and country is also paramount. I believe the same thing is true for dads spending time with daughters, but it appears that the subject at hand has more to do with males than females.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Mar 4, 2010)

It's so true.

I went to my 10 year HS reunion a couple years ago. Half the people there were 28, living with mom and pop, and 'trying to figure out what to do next' - which basically meant not working but not looking, or working a McJob so they didn't have to try that hard.

They'd get so resentful and up in arms when someone who was working hard and carving out a decent life for themselves. Lines like 'Well isn't that great for you' and 'Life's not fair I never get a break' were common.

Like suddenly when they were 25 someone was going to give them a corner office and their dream home.


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## Santiagj (Mar 4, 2010)

I can't believe its acceptable for a man to wear skinny jeans.

wtf.


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## chaosiscash (Mar 4, 2010)

I may have mentioned this here before, but it amazes me how many guys I know my age (I'm 29) who can't DO anything. I was lucky enough to be taught by my dad from an early age how to do things, like car repair, home repair, landscaping, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm no master mechanic, but I can change my own oil and diagnose most problems. It completely has to do with my father taking the time to teach me how to do things, which gave me the confidence to learn on my own as well. I know guys like me my own age, but we're outnumbered (best I can tell) by those that are scared to death to try and fix anything thereselves.

When I realized this a few years ago, I made sure to thank him. He told me the reason he taught me all that stuff years ago was because when he was in his 20's, just starting a young family, he would never have been able to make it financially if he hadn't been able to do a lot of repair work and whatnot himself. He wanted to make sure that when I got older I'd be able to do the same thing.

I'm my dad's only son, but I have a stepbrother and three brothers-in-law. All four fit in the category of nobody ever taking the time to teach them to do anything. And all four have had to go to my parents, at some time or another, for financial help. Its unfortunate that they didn't grow up being taught how to be independent.


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 4, 2010)

I've mentioned it before but my brothers-in-law are still sucking on the teat of my MIL and FIL. My wife used to think I was weird because I won't accept that for us. Over the last 6 years of marriage I've gradually made her realize that it's not me that's weird.


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## EM_PS (Mar 4, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Over the last 6 years of marriage I've gradually made her realize that it's me that's weird.


fixed it, and i think she got that before 6 years... :lmao:


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## maryannette (Mar 5, 2010)

Very interesting article. I don't think that any one thing is to blame. Like EM said, it is a cultural evolution. We have 2 daughters - both raised the same. Same parents, same schools, same experiences growing up, BUT different personalities. They are very different. The older one has always been "younger" and the younger one has always been "older". They will both be okay. Just different. And we have never accepted not growing up as an option, as hard as it may be.


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## Kephart P.E. (Mar 8, 2010)

I had an interesting experience with this topic on Sunday.

My GF had a friend of her's over and her 7 year old son came along.

Generally he is a pretty good kid, attention span of a knat, but I like him well enough. We me and his mom were talking and she mentioned to me that the boy had recently started acting up in school and being insolent at home. And I commented it sounded like it was time for the Playstation to go into a box in the closet.

Her response? "Well that will probably just make him resent us even more that he already does."

I was speechless. I think I said something witty like: "So?"

I really doubt my parents ever uttered something similar or even gave a shit what my little 7 year old brain thought. Of course they were just a couple of high school educated, hard working blue collar folks so what would they have known about raising children?


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## TouchDown (Mar 8, 2010)

When my kids act up and we take away their favorite thing... they look at me and say, "you're the worst dad in the whole world, you hate me!!!!"...

My general response is pretty much always - "sounds like I made the right decision. Life's not easy, better you learn now than when important things are on the line."

I honestly don't understand the "incapable" of sustaining life outside of parents either. I think it must have been the home I was raised in, I grew up on a farm, and you had to participate in "life" - I was part of a family, and everyone helped. There were no options to go and play XBox, or even for that matter watch a lot of TV - we had 1 station.

To allow yourself to become so unbelievably dependent upon your parents sounds a lot like my sister who's a drunk, and was in a relationship where they were co-dependent. The kids wanted it a certain way, but the parent's never said no for fear of hurting the kids feelings.

NOT IN EVERY SCENARIO - but if my kids needed a good kick in the ass (they are 1,6, and 8 right now, so it's easier said than done...) , it would be a dis-service to take away that learning experience from them, let your kids fail. It's OK, it's called parenting.

You know what my parents got me for college? They paid for my car insurance, took out a few loans to get me started my first 2 semesters, and purchased me a set of luggage.

A set of luggage - message received.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 8, 2010)

TouchDown said:


> You know what my parents got me for college? They paid for my car insurance, took out a few loans to get me started my first 2 semesters, and purchased me a set of luggage.
> A set of luggage - message received.


+1


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## Supe (Mar 8, 2010)

On one of the local morning shows today, a mom called in to try to talk her 24 year old son into moving out. He had a job, paid her rent, but was just too cheap to move out and get his own apartment so he could keep mooching. His response was, "this is ridiculous, I don't see why you want me out of the house so bad, there are tons of parents who want their kids to move back hom. Dave's mom would love to have him back living home."

To which she replied, "of COURSE she wants David to move back home. She's in a wheelchair!"

"I don't see what that has to do with anything."


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 8, 2010)

My parents told me very clearly what was expected of me. They told me they would pay for me to go to college anywhere in the country that I wanted to go as long as I made As and Bs. Anything less than that and I was to get a job and move out of the house. If I got arrested I was told very clearly that I should call someone else because my parents weren't coming to bail me out of jail. I never tested them on these things. I plan to offer my kids the same deal.

We already do the taking toys away thing and my kids are 2 and 4. If they refuse to listen then we start taking toys away. Eventually that seems to get through to them. We haven't spanked yet because we don't think they'll understand it. I'm hoping we never have to.


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## Dleg (Mar 8, 2010)

Cool article! I read a similar column in Time a few months ago, and letters the month after, about how the modern approach to child-rearing isn't necessarily producing good results. The most interesting point was raised by one of the letter writers, who noted how, when he was a kid in the Great Depression, his Dad was away at work all the time, and his Mom was busy keeping the house, and the kids went to school and otherwise played pretty much unattended by the adults. No after school soccer, no other close-parent-involvement activities. BUT - they would get spanked when they did anything bad or disrespected an adult, and have their mouths washed out with soap if they said bad words, etc. The letter writer noted that he and his friends grew up to become "The Greatest Generation".

I think it's the discipline and respect that's the big missing element. I use the islands as a good example: here, kids get left pretty much unattended just like in the 1930s. BUT - there's no discipline. Kids run wild, tell adults "f--k you!", don't do homework, get in fights, and smoke pot. And as a result, many kids grow up to be incredibly rude, poorly educated, disrespectful, unable to compete in the job market, and often turn to crime.

Or politics.


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 8, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> My parents told me very clearly what was expected of me. They told me they would pay for me to go to college anywhere in the country that I wanted to go as long as I made As and Bs. Anything less than that and I was to get a job and move out of the house. If I got arrested I was told very clearly that I should call someone else because my parents weren't coming to bail me out of jail. I never tested them on these things. I plan to offer my kids the same deal.


My parents had almost exactly the same deal with me and my sister. They also bought us our first cars. My sister is a lawyer and I'm an engineer and neither of us have had the need to move back home since we got our undergraduate degrees, so I think their plan worked out just fine


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## Supe (Mar 9, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> We haven't spanked yet because we don't think they'll understand it. I'm hoping we never have to.



We keep away from smacking MIAF's daughter on the butt. More so because she talks about everything, and with a custody battle on the horizon, pre school teachers, etc, we can envision a nightmare on that front. Sad part is, she's a total bastard whenever she comes back from her visitations with dickface on the weekends, because she's so bored there and they just let her run wild.

In lieu of spankings, we have done a number of things. If she doesn't eat dinner, no dessert and no cartoons before bed. Time outs a-plenty. Worse than that, I make a "phone call" to Santa to put her on the bad girls list. If she's worse than that, she comes home to see her room COMPLETELY devoid of just about every toy except maybe one or two.

The funny part is that now, I barely even have to raise my voice. On the rare occasion that she misbehaves or decides to whine or cry, I just give a stern "excuse me," and she shuts up INSTANTLY, lets me say what I need to, makes the proclamation that she wants "to be a good girl now", and is on her merry way.


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## Flyer_PE (Mar 9, 2010)

We rarely have to spank my son. Taking away toys and privileges almost always does the trick. My favorite is the "That's not fair!!" comment. My response usually "Life's not fair son, get used to it.".


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 9, 2010)

Supe said:


> Chucktown PE said:
> 
> 
> > We haven't spanked yet because we don't think they'll understand it. I'm hoping we never have to.
> ...


We have definitely been able to discipline without spanking so far, but we (Mrs. Chucktown and me) are on the same page on just about all of our parenting issues. If we aren't we talk about it after the kids are asleep. I could imagine that it would make it very confusing for the kid and very difficult for the responsible parents to be in a situation like yours.

I thought your custody troubles were over because dickface was convicted of assault or something?


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## jmbeck (Mar 9, 2010)

chaosiscash said:


> I may have mentioned this here before, but it amazes me how many guys I know my age (I'm 29) who can't DO anything. I was lucky enough to be taught by my dad from an early age how to do things, like car repair, home repair, landscaping, etc. Don't get me wrong, I'm no master mechanic, but I can change my own oil and diagnose most problems. It completely has to do with my father taking the time to teach me how to do things, which gave me the confidence to learn on my own as well. I know guys like me my own age, but we're outnumbered (best I can tell) by those that are scared to death to try and fix anything thereselves.
> *When I realized this a few years ago, I made sure to thank him.*


Exactly. I never realized how much I was learning from my father (and mother, for that matter) until I got my own place. As you said, I have friends that have to call a "handyman" for everything at their house. It's not just people our age either. I dated a girl in 2005 and her father called an electrician to replace a light fixture in their bathroom. Total cost, $350. I just looked at him in shock. Here was a man in his mid to late 50's, and has zero ability to do anything around a house.

My parents also never got upset when faced with a problem. I know people that totally lose their mind when things go a little bit south. That is one of the greatest gifts I received from my parents is the ability to focus on the solution rather than the problem.

In closing, I blame the weeniefication of the American Male on all you little yankee wusses.


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 9, 2010)

jmbeck said:


> In closing, I blame the weeniefication of the American Male on all you little yankee wusses.



lusone:


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## Mutha PE PS (Mar 9, 2010)

Moral of the story: Not everyone gets a trophy in real in life. There are winners and losers. Kids need to learn this fact early on so they can cope with real life situations. I have an 8yr old and a yr old and have been told many times already that "I'm the worst Dad in the world!"; But I'm ok with that. They are learning there are consequences and hard gets rewarded and bad choices have consequences. They should be able life when everything doesn't always go as planned.


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## Supe (Mar 9, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> I thought your custody troubles were over because dickface was convicted of assault or something?



He was convicted, but they have yet to extradite him to VA, and they wouldn't even amend the restraining order to give supervised visitation. The legal system shines yet again.


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## Supe (Mar 9, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> jmbeck said:
> 
> 
> > In closing, I blame the weeniefication of the American Male on all you little yankee wusses.
> ...



BTW, I was a "Yankee Wuss" (wasn't born in TX, but got there as fast as I could?), but got my fair share of ass whoopings. My father wasn't mechanically inclined whatsoever, but did show me the handy man basics. Despite both my parents being die hard democrats, I managed to stray from the pack, and was raised as lower middle class, not the Greenwich snoots who had to call Martha Stewart to wipe their ass for them.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 9, 2010)

My Mom said she ended up spanking us because nothing else worked. She said we were such happy children that we just dealt with any other form of punishment as a new thing to experience.

Seperate us, we were happy, send us too our rooms, we were happy, take away toys, we were happy, send us outside we were happy. She once said, "Honestly Captain. I sent you to your room once and later found you pulling hair off your teddy bear. I asked what you were doing and you pulled a tuft out then watched it slowly descend to the bedspread. You said, "Look, mommy! Its the Lunar Lander!"

"Spanking was the only thing that made you get the point you were being punished."


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## MA_PE (Mar 9, 2010)

yes I did it. I deserve a good spanking.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Mar 9, 2010)

Thank you sir, may I have another?


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 9, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I asked what you were doing and you pulled a turd out then watched it slowly descend to the bedspread. You said, "Look, mommy! Its the Lunar Lander!"
> "Spanking was the only thing that made you get the point you were being punished."



Gross. If my children were dropping turds on their beds I think I would resort to spanking them.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 9, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > I asked what you were doing and you pulled a turd out then watched it slowly descend to the bedspread. You said, "Look, mommy! Its the Lunar Lander!"
> ...


The turds looked like the Command Module.


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## Kephart P.E. (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't think you need to hit or spank your kids, yes it was done to me on rare occasion, but outside of the child doing something pretty dangerous, say running across a busy parking lot (saw this a couple of weeks ago) I don't think it is warranted.

It seems to me the main problem is that my friends with children don't seem to understand discipline, the purpose of discipline is to help a child learn how to control their behavior and emotions.

It seems most parents today are much more concerned about positive reinforcement and self esteem of their kid. I am not saying that isn't important just that I would rather have a highly disciplined child with average self esteem than the other way around.

Maybe this is because so many adults today were raised by just one parent and grew up with low self esteem and are now trying to fix a problem in their own lives thru their children.


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## Santiagj (Mar 9, 2010)

I remember vividly the last time I got a "spanking". I was 13 at the time and was hanging out with the wrong crowd. I got home really late and my Dad asked me where I was. My response to him was "Why don't you go fuck off." Next thing you know I caught the quickest back hand to the mouth. I swear my dad was trained by Bruce Lee. That was the one spanking that really straightened me out. I know I deserved it and I'm glad my parents didn't take my BS or else I would not be where I am now.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 9, 2010)

My BIL said he was spanked every day until his younger sister got too old to spank.

Mom's favorite implement of punishment in the car was a flyswatter with a smiley face on it. I think that's where my sense of irony came from.


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## Supe (Mar 9, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> My BIL said he was spanked every day until his younger sister got too old to spank.
> Mom's favorite implement of punishment in the car was a flyswatter with a smiley face on it. I think that's where my sense of irony came from.


I always got the wooden spoon.

One day I snuck it down to the basement and blasted it to pieces with a pellet gun.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 9, 2010)

Supe said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > My BIL said he was spanked every day until his younger sister got too old to spank.
> ...


We had the wooden spoon at grandma's while growing up. It had a 3" dia end on a 2' handle. The most torturous part was that she made us go get it for her. It only took one snap and we remembered it forever. If she even threatened "the spoon", we started crying and instantly promised to be nice. It ultimately snapped across my sister's ass when she was about 8 (because it was old, not because we got wailed on).

We try to employ several of the above discussed strategies (minus the wooden spoon). Usually starts with a threat to take away a toy/activity (TV, karate class) or to get sent up to their room which usually works. If the threat doesn't work, then we follow through with the removal of toy and/or sent to the room. If they are sent to their room, it means they are to sit quietly on their bed (no toys, stuffed animals, or even blankets/pillows). Then if after the above has been employed and they still act out, they'll get a swat on their butt. The only challenge is adjusting the swat to what the child is wearing (i.e. a lite tap is worthless if my daughter is wearing a pullup &amp; jeans).


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## Supe (Mar 9, 2010)

The spoon I got would never break on its own. The more it was used, the tighter and more compact the grain structure became, and the harder it felt.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 9, 2010)

Yeah, I only remember grandma's spoon used only a few times between me, my brother &amp; sister. It wasn't used enough to strengthen itself, combined with the dry weather led to it's demise.


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## Chucktown PE (Mar 9, 2010)

My mom had a wooden paddle (about 6 inches in diameter) that she employed if the "wait until your father gets home" verbage didn't calm us down. It was stored above the refrigerator and if we saw her reach for the paddle we ran for the hills.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 9, 2010)

My mom actually kicked me in the butt one time for calling my sister a smarty pants. I guess she was tired of my surly teen attitude.


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## Ble_PE (Mar 9, 2010)

I never really cared when my mom would spank us, cause it was more like a pat. But as soon as the words "wait til dad gets home" were said, we shut up quick. Dad used a belt and while he didn't use it often, it still kept me straight. My grandma would make me go pick my own switch for my whoopin. Now that's punishment!!

We haven't made it to the point of disciplining mini-ble yet, but when we do, spanking will be the absolute last resort.


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## EM_PS (Mar 9, 2010)

Santiagj said:


> I remember vividly the last time I got a "spanking". I was 13 at the time and was hanging out with the wrong crowd. I got home really late and my Dad asked me where I was. My response to him was "Why don't you go fuck off." Next thing you know I caught the quickest back hand to the mouth. I swear my dad was trained by Bruce Lee. That was the one spanking that really straightened me out. I know I deserved it and I'm glad my parents didn't take my BS or else I would not be where I am now.


that's usually how any spankings have occurred for me with my kids - no foul language retorts yet, they're 5 &amp; almost 4 - but they will be doing something or guilty of something that prompts that lightening quick whap on the butt. Usually like I'll catch my son whip a block or something and it hits my daughter square in the head...or daughter pushes son down the stairs type of stuff. Only once have I "laid into" one of them, and this after giving multiple outs &amp; chances to avoid discipline escalation...sometimes kids have to see the escalated result or threat carried thru to remember to be scared of it. Fortunately, any spankings (relatively rare anyways) have tapered off as they get out of the pigheaded toddler years.



Kephart P.E. said:


> I don't think you need to hit or spank your kids, yes it was done to me on rare occasion, but outside of the child doing something pretty dangerous, say running across a busy parking lot (saw this a couple of weeks ago) I don't think it is warranted.
> It seems to me the main problem is that my friends with children don't seem to understand discipline, the purpose of discipline is to help a child learn how to control their behavior and emotions.
> 
> It seems most parents today are much more concerned about positive reinforcement and self esteem of their kid. I am not saying that isn't important just that I would rather have a highly disciplined child with average self esteem than the other way around.
> ...


i don't take his viewpoints or opinion wholesale verbatim, but I do think Dr. Dobson's observations on child-rearing &amp; strong willed kids are pretty succinct.


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## Flyer_PE (Mar 9, 2010)

EM_PS said:


> i don't take his viewpoints or opinion wholesale verbatim, but I do think Dr. Dobson's observations on child-rearing &amp; strong willed kids are pretty succinct.


Ditto.

The main thing my wife and I concentrate on is follow-through. Doesn't matter whether it's a punishment or reward, if we tell him something will happen, we make sure it happens. I've only had to resort to spanking him two or three times. Since he knows it's not an idle threat, he usually straightens up long before I have to actually lower the boom.


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## Dleg (Mar 9, 2010)

My mom used a paint-stirrer that she had painted kind of colorfully with the title "The Board of Education". It didn't really hurt (she only ever used it on our fully-clothed butts), but it got the point across.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 10, 2010)

Dleg said:


> My mom used a paint-stirrer that she had painted kind of colorfully with the title "The Board of Education".


My parents had a paddle with painting of a bear sneaking up on a deer in the woods. It was captioned, "For the little dear with the bare behind."


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## snickerd3 (Mar 10, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> My parents had a paddle with painting of a bear sneaking up on a deer in the woods. It was captioned, "For the little dear with the bare behind."


too cute


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## MA_PE (Mar 10, 2010)

snickerd3 said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > My parents had a paddle with painting of a bear sneaking up on a deer in the woods. It was captioned, "For the little dear with the bare behind."
> ...


yeah. in a "Happiness is a warm gun" kind of way.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 10, 2010)

It's only cute because it's not your bare ass...


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## FLBuff PE (Mar 10, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> It's only cute because it's not your bare ass...


Are you disparaging snick's bare ass?

Sorry. Couldn't resist.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 10, 2010)

Well, I haven't seen her bare ass so I couldn't say for sure. Maybe pics would help...


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