# Who's up for some NCEES reform?



## EdinNO (Jul 15, 2006)

Anyone willing to stand up and do something about the results wait time?

I'll be glad to try to organize something if there are enough people out there willing to get involved!

Ed


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## rleon82 (Jul 15, 2006)

Ed, I passed the test, have a Number, but I still cannot practice because Florida has not ratified my # yet.

Don't forget I am losing tons of side work.


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## EdinNO (Jul 15, 2006)

I wish I had side work. I KNOW I could get it, but my new company (been there for 2 weeks now) mentioned in the interview that its frowned upon.

And I'm not making a killing. Just barely enough to allow me to make the commute I'm making.

I think I'll go solo one day though.

Regardless, I feel compelled to make a difference. When I see something broken in a place where I can fix it and make a difference, I feel like that's my calling. I am more than willing to do what is necessary to make things happen. I passed and am now a PE, but I know that most people are just interested in their own thing.

If I can get enough backup, I'll consider doing whatever it takes to make a difference.

There are too many cowards and ego-centric people in the world who don't give a damn about others. I feel like if I can do some good, let me have at it.

Ed


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## rleon82 (Jul 15, 2006)

I am with you Ed. Let me know what you need for help. 2 months to grade a scanned test is crazy.


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## Timmy! (Jul 15, 2006)

Rant mode switch "on":

No two ways about it...NCEES treats us like horse shit. It is unconscionable to have to wait so long to get results from a scanned exam; if you pass, you have no idea of your score and have no right to see your test, under the pretext of "exam security". Any other profession would have raised such a hue and cry that the bastards would have been strung up. My wife is an RN and has taken Board certification tests; and she says it is absolutely shameless the way they treat us.

I was really irritated when I took the EE exam last April. They had signs on the men's room door, saying "No Talking" and EVEN had a security drone sitting beside the men's room door. Yeah, like I'm gonna schedule a piss so I can dash into the men's room so I can ask the electrical engineer in the next stall how to solve problem #12.

It pisses me off that this stupid test has spawned a cottage industry of hucksters who cash in by selling books and sample exams.

Rant mode off.


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## OR_CE (Jul 15, 2006)

I actually didn't mind the NCEES wait all that much. I'm primarily pissed about the crazy long wait time for my state (OR) to accept the results and mail letters.

We even have a law that says the Administrative Secratary of the board is to notify examinees of the results as soon as practicle. One month after the results are received from NCEES is not, IMHO, practicle.

Long story short, I'm planning to address this issue with my state board after I get all my ducks in a row. I may even try to get appointed to the board. Unfortunately one of the appointment criteria is five years experience as a licensed engineer or surveyor.

Grrrrrr :fool:


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## Timmy! (Jul 15, 2006)

While I'm in full-blown bitch mode, I'll add my comments about the FE exam...

I took it the Spring quarter of my last year in college. Some Nazi drone was in the corner with a video camcorder on a tripod, filming the entire 8-hour session to verify no one was cheating.

I was 40 years old at the time, and more than a little pissed that I was being monitored like either: 1) a kindergartener or 2) a pedophile.

Any idiot who would apply to take either the FE or PE exam, with the sole intent being to copy questions rather than actually try and pass the test, should have a psychiatric evaluation.

Plus, I submit to you that agencies such as NCEES and ELSES do this carrot-and-stick gig on us, posing these tests as both challenges and the Holy Grail. I'd wager that a decent physics student who was good at math could pass both the FE and PE exams, with the study materials now available.

Give me an AK-47 and put me on point. I'll lead the charge. Next stop: Clemson! We'll storm the Citadel!!!


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## Hill William (Jul 16, 2006)

I totally agree with you guys. That was the worst two months of my life. I would obsess about that exam at all times. I really think that they should show us the common courtesy of trying to be just a little more on the ball. Don't forget, they are not doing this non-profit. They use volunteers who are only reimbursed for travel and lodging to make the test and they probably pay the proctors about jack shit.

However, this being said, I dont think we have a snowballs chance on this one. If you try to get anything done, they are just gonna give you the old dog and pony show about how the tests are reviewed question by question in order to better serve you. And lets face it, they definitely have a monopoly on the product. No one can go and get a PE license from someone else. Ill help do whatever I can but I just dont think that we are the first and we wont be the last to raise these concerns.

Please dont ban me.


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## rleon82 (Jul 16, 2006)

Nobody is going to ban you Mr. Diaz, you bring up several great points.

I only have one more thing to say, GO I ISRAEL!


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## DrFranz (Jul 16, 2006)

> Ed, I passed the test, have a Number, but I still cannot practice because Florida has not ratified my # yet.
> Don't forget I am losing tons of side work.


RLeon, how will we know that our numbers are ratified? are they going to post something on that useless website they never update? :dunno:


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## Dark Knight (Jul 16, 2006)

Hello there,

I posted something similar some months ago, at a galaxy far far away, and there was not too much of a support for the idea  . Now I see another chance here. 

I did suggest that time to wite at our respectives Congressmen(women) : USA : and state our concern. You know, raise a red flag. Let someone know that there is something going on that requires attention.

How many candidates take the FE and PE test every year? For someone running for President : USA : , in case he/she did something to help all these poor unfortunate souls, that is a huge ammount of votes. Don't you think?

Let us attack this flank first and see what happens. Count me in.

;guns; ;guns; ;guns; ;guns; ;guns; ;guns;


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## cement (Jul 16, 2006)

Bring it on!! was never more aptly said. this is a noble cause that this board is well suited for. Admin, I recommend a sticky!

This battle needs to waged on two fronts.

1) at the national level, to put pressure on NCEES to improve their process and give timely results

2) at the state level to give prompt notification of results and immediate licensure upon passing.

this is going to require us getting our butts at State Board meetings. The boards would have the most influence on NCEES, since they are the client. The issue of release of results and licensure can be brought at the same time. We need reps in every state. I will be sounding off at the nest CO meeting.

Ladies and Gentlemen, it is time to saddle up!


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## rleon82 (Jul 16, 2006)

Dr. Franz, go to www.fbpe.org and download the spreadsheet containing all the PE and EI information (Engineering Directory). Our numbers are listed there. I even ordered my seal this morning.


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## benbo (Jul 16, 2006)

I think the wait time is the major thing to tackle. After that perhaps (two other major beefs) -

1. Give test passers the option to see their score if they want (that is probably more a State board decision).

2. Get rid of this mystery around the cut score (I mean the raw number of points to pass). I mean WTF? Let us know what the cut score is and has been historically for the various exams.

I'm willing to help out, sign something, to a point. I am afraid I wouldn't waste too much time on this because I don't see it changing.


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## EdinNO (Jul 16, 2006)

Looks like a lot of people feel the same way! That's great!

Maybe there really isn't anything we can do. But if we can come up with something and it snowballs and eventually a few hundred engineers from each state are willing to come forward and formally complain, maybe something can happen.

As someone mentioned above, I think its a slap in the face to our profession. I know several other professions who don't have nearly the wait, uncertainty, etc... that we have to deal with. I think they kick us around a likttle too much. Its BS!

Keep the ideas coming in. Right now its just a dream and a little ranting, but maybe we can make something real happen!

Ed


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## NSEARCH (Jul 16, 2006)

> Ed, I passed the test, have a Number, but I still cannot practice because Florida has not ratified my # yet.
> Don't forget I am losing tons of side work.


rleon, you have a number and can do side work as a PE. What's holding you back?

Ed....I'd be more than happy to devote some time and work into it but I just wouldn't know where to begin. I would think using ASCE as a source would be a good start though.


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## rleon82 (Jul 16, 2006)

Nothing is holding me back now, I ordered my seal this morning. Woo Hoo!


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## Kipper (Jul 16, 2006)

Ed, I am in. I would like to see how many people from this forum could get involved with our state board meetings and work together here to attack on many fronts.

Our solidarity on this forum will help each other if and when we run into the ones that have tried this before, and didn't get any where, and quit.

It is my goal to get on the board even if it does take five years. It will be nice to have the business contacts.

;guns; :dsgt:


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## EdinNO (Jul 16, 2006)

Sounds great!

At first I was just ranting I guess. But now that I see how many people feel the same, maybe we can try to get our heads together and make something happen.

Lets come up with ideas and see what happens.

Ed


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

> Dr. Franz, go to www.fbpe.org and download the spreadsheet containing all the PE and EI information (Engineering Directory). Our numbers are listed there. I even ordered my seal this morning.


THANKS!!!!

I'll order my seal today!


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

Rleon, where did you order your stamp?? any of the web sites mentioned in this board or somewhere else local??


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## rleon82 (Jul 17, 2006)

Not sure if the board sent me here or not.


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

Thanks!

I'll order mine right away so I can start my sidework  if you need for your sidework or for your company any foundations services, advanced geotechnical modeling, like FEM seepage, FEM settlement, sope stabilities, etc, let me know.


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## rleon82 (Jul 17, 2006)

Where are you out of Dr. Franz?


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

I am out of boynton beach... I used to live in Melbourne and worked a couple times in sebastian and vero beach.... long time ago


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## rleon82 (Jul 17, 2006)

Sounds like you are about 2 hours south of me. I am sure we can bouce work off of each other. I specialize in Stormwater Drainage design.


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

that's neat!

in general after we are done w/ geo, the need a SWM design... I generally include K values in my geotech reports for your convenience...

you can get some info about some other stuff that we do at

www.geo-structural.com


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## rleon82 (Jul 17, 2006)

K-values are needed for MODRET - the groundwater infiltration modeling software. You are down the in the South Florida Water Management District, I am not sure how their requirements vary from St. Johns Water Management District.


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## NSEARCH (Jul 17, 2006)

They both have pretty similar requirements WRT stormwater quantity and quality.

We're in the same field rleon.......send me some side work!!


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## rleon82 (Jul 17, 2006)

We are in competition NSEARCH, I will Bogart all the work for myself.


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

hehehe, you two can send me some side work then... and I could send you also the WM part of my projects... which county are you in, N Search?


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## rleon82 (Jul 17, 2006)

Drfranz, you going to drive up here to get a couple of borings?


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## DrFranz (Jul 17, 2006)

nope, I'd sub someone to do it...

Why? do you need some borings?


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## cement (Jul 19, 2006)

wow, this thread wandered off and died

are we riding or what? :???:


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## EdinNO (Jul 19, 2006)

OK, I was full of steam a few days ago and since then have been side-tracked! 

Should we:

- Write a letter to NSPE to be posted in PE magazine?

- Bring up the issues to whatever engineering societies where we are members?

- Complain to our boards?

- Complain to NCEES?

- Write or congress members?

- Do it individually or form a group to do so?

- Just write Big Mike and see if he can pull some strings?

And so on.....

Anyone want to throw out some ideas?

Ed


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## Kipper (Jul 20, 2006)

Yes!

Yes!

Yes!

Yes!

Yes!

Yes!

NO!!!!!!!!! :"the other board":

:lol:


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## cement (Jul 20, 2006)

Ed,

I think that contacting NSPE is a great idea. There is influence over the industry there, and prompt, uniform treatment of exam results is a desireable action. We may see an added benifit of additional interest in this website.

NCEES is funded by us, at the direction of the State Boards. Our individual complaints directly to NCEES will have an effect if enough of us act. We should also make complaints to our State Boards, since they contract with NCEES. Follow the money.

Uniform treatment of the exam results is an important issue I think. Florida got notification first, but license numbers nearly last. In Colorado received results late, but I had my license number the same day. The confusing, parochial treatment of our results led to much consternation and loss of productivity. There were alot of angry people out there (who have faded into the woodwork now?).

I think that NSPE could be a central focal point in this effort. Are you a member? I choked at the membership costs, maybe I need to research the benifits more.

Congress has no interest in this, IMO. This is an industry and practicioner issue. The next step is to decide what we want to ask for.

KB


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 20, 2006)

I blame the internet!

When I took the PE (back in the dark ages before computers), we didn't know what everyone else was going through and therefore had no point of reference. I guess I should have been upset and just didn't know it.

Of course back then it took almost 4 months to get the results so I guess things are better. But we have become an instant gratification society. Now I know what my grandparents and parents were talking about when they talked about a "simpler" time and the "good old days".


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## EdinNO (Jul 20, 2006)

Mike,

I don't think it has anything to do with instant gratification. It has to do more with capabilities vs results. We have the technology. Other industries can do better using the technilogical advances that were made available to us all. Its kind of ironic that the number one industry when it comes to technology is not keeping up.

Its kind of like when I worked for a control contractor whose very own building had 25 year old, energy inefficient, thermostatic control of their systems. They were selling sophisticated systems to others, but not using one to their own advantage. When they realized they could put an automation system in their own office and use it as a marketing piece to show customers, their thoughts changed. But they had competition. Unfotunately, NCEES has no competition. Maybe it'll be harder to get them to install the automation system? :dunno:

It seems I hear every excuse in the book to settle for the status quo: Instant gratification, change is difficult, you have it better than we did, etc.., etc... The people who are afraid to change and become better are the dinosaurs of the world. Obviously, we are all intelligent people and we believe, until proven otherwise, that something can and should be done to improve the system. I don't think their's much of an "Envelope" to push here because I think their is a lot of improvement that is needed. But, pushing the envelope is what has caused increasingly better things to come to life.

Mike, I don't mean this against you. I just see a fix that should be/ could be made and I think it should happen. Here's the clincher: it will have NO effect on me. I'm done. I passed. What more of an arguement can I give? I could just move on with my life. But it needs fixing.

Ed


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jul 20, 2006)

I agree. It could probably be streamlined. But let's look at what happens. Based on what I've read and heard (feel free to modify)

Test is at day 1.

Proctors have to account for all of the answer sheets, tests, etc., box everthing up and ship it back to NCEES. By the time NCEES gets everything, one week has passed. (My assumption).

They start running answer sheets through the scanning machines. How many? volumes of test takers is a closely guarded secret for some reason, but if I had to guess, 20,000 FE and 10,000 to 13,000 PE? So let's say 32,000 answer sheets. [EDIT - I JUST REALIZED THAT YOU HAVE AM AND PM ANSWER SHEETS - SO DOUBLE THAT TO 64,000!] I would hope that they would run them multiple times through different machines for accuracy. Including all of the kickouts that have to be looked at manually because of erasure marks or missing data or whateever, this probably takes 2 weeks. Plus I would imagine (at least I hope) that they pull a certain % to handgrade them to make sure the machines are working properly but I'll include that time in the two weeks.

Next, somebody has to start evaluating the answers to see if there are problems. I would hope that if the answer is "A" on a question but 80% of the people say "B", that someone has to look at that and determine if A or B is the correct answer. Or both. All those have to be resolved. How many are there and how long does it take? Who knows. Let's say a week. So now you have different answers to some questions. I guess you have to run all of the answer sheets back through with the revised answers. Probably multiple times again. Another 2 weeks.

So we're up to what, six weeks so far. Now they've got to determine the passing score. Based on the control questions or equating process. However that works. I bet that takes a week. Somebody has to review it and approve it for every exam (different people?) so probably another week.

So now we're up to eight weeks. Now they start coming up with all of the results and sending stuff out to the states to do their thing. That 10-12 week time frame doesn't look that far off. I guess if they don't do all of the quality control stuff that I assumed, it should be a lot shorter. Also, I'm guessing how many answer sheets there are. I didn't even think about surveying so who knows.

Fire away at my logic. Just my $0.02.


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## NSEARCH (Jul 20, 2006)

> hehehe, you two can send me some side work then... and I could send you also the WM part of my projects... which county are you in, N Search?


I'm in Polk County Franz.


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## DrFranz (Jul 20, 2006)

nice... Lakeland? Bartow? or Winter Haven?

I used to live there for a while... (some 2 years ago... I did dam design and gyp stack for the phospatic waste the mines have there - IMC, Cargil, US Agrochemicals and CF)

how about you?


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## Hill William (Jul 20, 2006)

> nice... Lakeland? Bartow? or Winter Haven?I used to live there for a while... (some 2 years ago... I did dam design and gyp stack for the phospatic waste the mines have there - IMC, Cargil, US Agrochemicals and CF)
> 
> how about you?


I am your dam guide. Welcome to your dam tour. Are there any dam questions?

Where can I get some damn bait??


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## cement (Jul 20, 2006)

would you guys get a room?


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## EdinNO (Jul 20, 2006)

Mike,

That's a good scenario. Perhaps your info is correct. That is the way its done now. There may not be enough incentive to speed things up. However, its almost an engineering problem in itself- speeding things up- and that interests me as I'm sure it does others. But, it may also have financial and other rewards for those at the top who are still not convinced.

Imagine the possibilities:

By analyzing all the existing conditions and taking into consideration the technology at hand (ie, internet distribution of test results; pre-written programs for sorting through testing anomalies, comparing control question results, determing cut scores, etc...) a solution CAN be generated. I am willing to bet that it could EASILY, EASILY be cut down to all examinees receiving results within 4 weeks- all at the same time. I say "Easily", but I mean it would take some work, effort, creativity, etc... but once all the things are in place 4 weeks and simultaneous distribution of results should be achieveable. I think I'm being quite conservative on that estimate.

Anyway, after analyzing the present situation and formulating a plan it must be implemented. That costs money- probably a good bit. Where's it gonna come from? Here is the interesting part. We all paid $200 for registration. What if you offered, to anyone interested, the opportunity to get guaranteed results within 4 weeks (and give a FIRM date) for a mere $50 premium? With your numbers (and I have a suspicion you might be correct), assuming everyone would pay the premium, that's roughly $1.6 million per administration or $3.2 million per year in additional fees. Would that cover it? So what if only half pay the premium? Those who choose not to pay up for expediting can still wait 10 weeks or so. Their test would already be graded, but NCEES can sit on it. THat's still $1.6 million per year in additional fees- a nice budget to get this done.

Talk to the powers that be. I'll be happy to consider taking on the project of heading up the new system. I'd only ask for a small portion of the budget to cover my salary. In the end, NCEES would have the following:

1) Greatly satisfied their customers

2) The process would no longer be frustrating for all examinees

3) It would be great PR for engineering in general

4) It probably would not have costed NCEES much in initial outlay, if anything

5) NCEES would likely make additional revenue off of the continued $1.6 to $3.2 million per year

6) It would cost NCEES less to run their program

7) Those in the NCEES would have a wonderful feeling of accomplishment

8) Etc....

If we can dream it, then most likely, we can do it.

Ed


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## Neko (Jul 20, 2006)

:true:

I took the PE exam back in April in California. As of today 07/20/06 the result is still pending due to the boards has made mistake on the survey score. The letter i received 3 days ago states that I have pass the PE 8 hours, Seismic, and the take home exam. However, It says "NEED TO TAKE" for the survey test. They assumed that I have not take the test! I called the board next day and the lady told me they have made a mistake on the letter, and about 400 examinee has received the same message. She then told me to just ignore it and they will amend the letter within this week. I am very upset about the wait time and the delay. It has been more than 12 weeks since I have took the test. The waiting part is stressful at this point because i have been looking for a new job for the past few months. I felt that if i have passed the PE exam. I will have a better chance to get a job and in a stronger position to negotiate for a better salary. So, I will strongly support you "Ed" for some NCEES reform!!!


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