# Question for all you Civils out there



## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

OK, I need some advice. My driveway has been separating from my garage slab for *awhile* now... after months of staring at it and thinking I should do something about it, I've decided to get off my duff to fix the gap between the two. Luckily the rain here has been very infrequent!

The gap is a little over an inch wide now (maybe ~1.5"). Its about 6" deep, and my driveway is 16' wide. Driveway is concrete BTW.

After a little Google searching and talking to some friends who know more about this than me, I've found that this fix should be fairly simple. Fill the gap with backer rod up to about 1/2"-1/4" to the top of the gap, then fill the remainder with self leveling sealant.

So I have two questions.

1. Is this the correct way to fill this gap?

2. Can I fill the gap with sand first, then put in backer rod and the sealant? The reason for this is that 6" is pretty deep, and will take a LOT of backer rod. The largest size I can find is 3/4" dia.

Any help you can give would be most appreciated!


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

With the gap being 1.5", I think you're going to have a tough time filling that with backer rod. I would suggest using a non shrink grout to fill in the gap.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

My question is, what caused this gap? Improper compaction of the subgrade of the driveway? Do you have swelling/collapsible soil? If you just fill the gap, and have more movement in the future, you will be chasing a problem again in a few years, IMHO. The gap is a syptom of the problem going on.


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## Fluvial (Feb 2, 2010)

^^ That's what I was gonna ask. Have you perhaps got a problem with water running in the soil beneath the driveway? If the whole driveway has moved, you can get the mudjack guy to come pump his stuff in the void and pick it back up.


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

^^ Agreed. But I don't envision him jackhammering the slab just yet.


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## csb (Feb 2, 2010)

Fluvial said:


> ^^ That's what I was gonna ask. Have you perhaps got a problem with water running in the soil beneath the driveway? If the whole driveway has moved, you can get the mudjack guy to come pump his stuff in the void and pick it back up.


Hey, he asked a serious question and you have to come in here with your filth...



Is the driveway on a slope?


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

My entire driveway/sidewalks around the house have moved. I had a mudjack guy come out and take a look, but he said it had moved too much (~2") to mudjack. I may have an expensive/time consuming fix on my hands. But I would enjoy doing it myself.


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## Fluvial (Feb 2, 2010)

2" too much to mudjack ?! What a wimp.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

The driveway is on a slope... I don't know anything about the soils unfortunately, I am but a lowly mechanical type. Energy I understand, soils and subgrades not so much.

So, should I call a mudjack guy instead of doing this myself? (BTW, what is a mudjack guy? I am completely clueless here.)


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

I have a similar situation at my house. My driveway is ok, but the sidewalk that wraps around from the front of the driveway up to the front door (including 6 concrete steps) have dropped a full 2". There's no way mudjacking would work in this situation. I know the subgrade has either washed out or just created a sinkhole (I know there's a significant void because it takes about 5 minutes with a hose pouring water into one of the cracks to get the hole filled). The only way for my walkway to get fixed would be to jackhammer, fix the subgrade, then replace the concrete. Luckily there isn't any indication the adjacent garage foundation is in any trouble.

The biggest thing I'm happy about is that I rent the house, and have no intention of buying it. I'll leave that beast for the landlord to deal with. He's aware of the problem, but since it seems to be ok for now, he's not doing anything.

The slab in the basement has also settled about 1" on one end (the opposite end of the house from the sidewalk issue). In that case, I would probably just pour a skin-patch to level it out and replace the carpet.


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## Fluvial (Feb 2, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> So, should I call a mudjack guy instead of doing this myself? (BTW, what is a mudjack guy? I am completely clueless here.)


If you don't really know what's causing it, I'd be hesitant to get him out there 'cos he's gonna be a little expensive. You might be just as well putting the non-shrink grout in there and watching to see what happens next.

The mudjack is a kind of a slurry mixture of water, red sand, and cement (that's what they use here anyway). Our mudjack guy in the area is a really insane big redneck dude who will talk your ear off the whole time his crew is working.

I've seen him pump a void full of about 5 yards of slurry; I've seen him pick up trees and even move a driveway slab vertically 4 to 6 inches. He's a wild man.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

So I should fill the whole gap with the non shrink grout? Anything else I need?

Is this the type of stuff?

http://www.quikrete.com/ProductLines/FastS...ShrinkGrout.asp


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

That looks like the right stuff. I would also suggest a sealant for the grout after it cures.

When installing the grout, I would recommend using high-pressure air to clean out the groove as best as you can (especially each face of exisiting concrete). Then moisten both faces of the crack. The moisture will help remove any additional dust and will help the grout to adhere to the existing concrete as well as helping the grout cure properly.


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## Guest (Feb 2, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> OK, I need some advice. My driveway has been separating from my garage slab for *awhile* now... after months of staring at it and thinking I should do something about it, I've decided to get off my duff to fix the gap between the two. Luckily the rain here has been very infrequent!
> The gap is a little over an inch wide now (maybe ~1.5"). Its about 6" deep, and my driveway is 16' wide. Driveway is concrete BTW.


Can you mebbe provide a picture? Not that I am disagreeing with recommendations offered but a pic might reveal something to the group that might not be obvious in your description.

JR


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

I'll see if I can get a picture when I get home... then you can all shake your fingers at me for not taking care of this sooner!


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## Santiagj (Feb 2, 2010)

How long has this gap taken to form? Mudjacking will be expensive. You will not get any return on your mudjacking investment. Most potential buyers will look at the separation and not know any better.

If this is a slow process (10+ years) this is what I would do. Fill the bottom 5 to 5.5 inches of grout. Then to top it off I would use some concrete joint sealer: Fox industries FX-66 Joint Sealant (or equal).

If this is a fast process then most likely you have a water issue where your subbase is being washed away. If this is the case you have to find where the water source is and where its going. Hopefully its not from a water main.


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## Road Guy (Feb 2, 2010)

yes post a picture, backer-rod or something similar is used on bridge joints so it shouldnt be a big problem to do, but its going to be required to be done again and again.

unless you want to dig up the whole thing get some low slump concrete (i.e. mix the concrete a little on the wet side) and fill in the voids, to be effective you really just need to pressure grout it, but its probably just the result of residential contractors not compacting the earth beneath your driveway...

I had one on a slope at my last house and I was yearly filling cracks..


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> ...but its probably just the result of residential contractors not compacting the earth beneath your driveway...


GCs taking short cuts? Blasphemy! That NEVER happens.

/sarcasm


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## Road Guy (Feb 2, 2010)

they think that since they parked there while they built the house that its compacted!


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> they think that since they parked there while they built the house that its compacted!


Sad but true.


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## Santiagj (Feb 2, 2010)

Why don't you run that track hoe back and forth a few times over that spot. Should be solid as a rock after that.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

Santiagj said:


> How long has this gap taken to form?


Well I bought the house about 4 years ago new, and the gap has slowly formed since then... I'm a bit ashamed to admit that I've probably been staring at this gap for a solid 2-3 years at least and saying to myself "you know, I should probably fix this!"

But I don't see any cracks in the garage slab or around the foundation so I'm hoping no major damage has been done so far.

A friend of mine who I work with who is a civil recommended getting some cheap fiber board that is used for sidewalk expansion joints instead of the grout. My only concern with that is cutting and fitting this fiberboard in around the rebar that is connected between the garage slab and the driveway. What do you all think about that route?

I know I know.. pictures forthcoming after work!


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

There's rebar between the garage and the driveway slab, and the driveway is still moving?


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> Santiagj said:
> 
> 
> > How long has this gap taken to form?
> ...


I would hope that the driveway slab is NOT connected to the garage slab with rebar. That is a major no-no in the geotech world. If you do that, you are asking for cracks that will form from differential movement of the garage and driveway slab. So, you shouldn't have to caut and form around the rebar. Each slab might have rebar in them, but hopefully they are not connected.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

There is definitely rebar going from the garage slab to the driveway. I might just have to leave work early to take some pictures... I don't know if I can wait


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> There is definitely rebar going from the garage slab to the driveway. I might just have to leave work early to take some pictures... I don't know if I can wait


Standard language in our reports states that exterior slabs should be separated from foundations and interior slabs. :dunno:


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> MechGuy said:
> 
> 
> > There is definitely rebar going from the garage slab to the driveway. I might just have to leave work early to take some pictures... I don't know if I can wait
> ...


yeah, different expansion rates due to varying temperature swings. This would definately lead to some significant cracking.

Unless the rebar is "sleeved" and only used to prevent vertical settling. The sleeve would allow the two slabs to expand/contract properly, but would prevent any vertical movement...


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

OK, my wife was good enough to take some pictures and send them to me! What a gal 

After looking at the pictures I realize my mistake... there is some concrete in front of the garage slab that has rebar connecting to the driveway. The garage door actually comes down directly after the garage slab.

So what do you all think? Does this shed some light on anything?


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

It's a little hard to tell from the pictures, but is the crack a uniform width along the diveway? Is it just a horizontal crack, or is there some vertical movement as well?

Edit: Also, in the third picture, there is a crack on the slab near the slip joint between the sections; this could indicate movement at the outside of the slab section with the crack.


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Those appear to be dowelled in to allow for lateral movement and restrict vertical movement. I would go with the non shrink grout option. I would use a bonding agent and paint it on the garage slab to get the non shrink grout to stick.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> It's a little hard to tell from the pictures, but is the crack a uniform width along the diveway? Is it just a horizontal crack, or is there some vertical movement as well?


I believe it's just a horizontal gap... if there is any vertical movement I think it is very small.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Those appear to be dowelled in to allow for lateral movement and restrict vertical movement. I would go with the non shrink grout option. I would use a bonding agent and paint it on the garage slab to get the non shrink grout to stick.


Agreed. Leaving the expansion material in place would also be recommended.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> Agreed. Leaving the expansion material in place would also be recommended.


OK, at the risk of sounding really dumb here -- that's the black stuff on top, right?


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Yes


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## Road Guy (Feb 2, 2010)

if you were to ask a geotech that was being paid for their opinion they would tell you to tear out the whole thing, undercut 3 feet, replace with #57 stone, and repour the driveway...

of course there usually not the ones spending the money so thats the cadillac approach (sorry geo-techs, but thats how i see it whenever we call them)


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > Agreed. Leaving the expansion material in place would also be recommended.
> ...


Fighting the urge to say something really smartass...


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> if you were to ask a geotech that was being paid for their opinion they would tell you to tear out the whole thing, undercut 3 feet, replace with #57 stone, and repour the driveway...
> of course there usually not the ones spending the money so thats the cadillac approach (sorry geo-techs, but thats how i see it whenever we call them)


Additionally, they would recommend post-tensioning the driveway, installing foundation beams, and adding #11 bar on 4" centers...


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> if you were to ask a geotech that was being paid for their opinion they would tell you to tear out the whole thing, undercut 3 feet, replace with #57 stone, and repour the driveway...
> of course there usually not the ones spending the money so thats the cadillac approach (sorry geo-techs, but thats how i see it whenever we call them)


Hey! I'm trying to help.



Dexman PE said:


> Road Guy said:
> 
> 
> > if you were to ask a geotech that was being paid for their opinion they would tell you to tear out the whole thing, undercut 3 feet, replace with #57 stone, and repour the driveway...
> ...


:brick: And the hits just keep on coming.

I agree that if it is just horizontal, fill as others have recommended. I'll take my geotech and enviro self back to writing reports. :sniff:


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

I was just going to fill it with dirt, but I figured I should at least so something that looks like I've given more than a half assed attempt at fixing the problem.

If I don't I risk my wife saying the inevitable quote: "Aren't you an engineer??"


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## cement (Feb 2, 2010)

it has been cold, so it could be shrinkage...

ok, more seriously, the rebar dowels might be bridging a void under the driveway or even the garage floor. can you see down there? if it looks like there are extensive voids, the mud jack guy might be needed.

a proper mud jack aka pressure grouting, would have a guage on the pump to see the resistance of the placement area. i.e. 0-5 psi would indicate a void, 5 to 80 would indicate poorly compacted soil, then over 80 or 100 psi the slab would start to lift. I'm picking these numbers from distant memory, but you get the idea.

the non - shrink grout is a good idea if there is little or no void under the slabs, you should work it in with a trowel to make sue it fills the space at the bottom. then top it with a sealer as described above.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Forgot to ask the obvious question: What's going on at the other end of the driveway? Is your driveway straight from the garage to the sidewalk/curb/street, or is it L shaped? I'd be curious to see what's going on at the other end.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> Forgot to ask the obvious question: What's going on at the other end of the driveway? Is your driveway straight from the garage to the sidewalk/curb/street, or is it L shaped? I'd be curious to see what's going on at the other end.


OK that sounds really dirty to me for some reason ... 

Driveway slopes straight down into the street. I don't think I can get my wife to take another picture while I'm at work... she's apt to ask what I'm doing here!


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## cement (Feb 2, 2010)

soil would wash away, and the non-shrink grout is self compacting.


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## Road Guy (Feb 2, 2010)

take a piece of steel, rod, stick, landscape nail, etc and see how deep you can push it into the ground in between the cracks, if it goes in easily then you probably have compaction / erosion issues....


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

I think the valuable lesson to take away from this thread is that you should never ever ask 7200 engineers for their opinion on something you could fix with a bag of quickrete. We've had solutions ranging from filling the crack with sand to jackhammering up the damn driveway, undercutting the subgrade, installing 57 stone, and replacing with an 8" thick slab complete with foundation beams, piles, and #11 bars at 4" oc.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Nowhere in this thread did MechGuy say co$t was to be considered.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> Nowhere in this thread did MechGuy say co$t was to be considered.


Which is why the geotechs chimed in with the "Cadillac" solutions...


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> Nowhere in this thread did MechGuy say co$t was to be considered.



Did I mention that I'm a poor lowly consultant with 3 kids? What I spend in diapers and formula this week will probably be more than what I'll spend on fixing this gap! 

But I do love all the different solutions ... thanks guys!

Pictures with the "fixed" gap will be forthcoming... probably get around to it on Saturday!


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> FLBuff PE said:
> 
> 
> > Nowhere in this thread did MechGuy say co$t was to be considered.
> ...


I consider myself one of the "geotech guys" that was commenting, but nowhere did I give a "Cadillac" solution.


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Mechguy, your house will probably cave in on itself if you don't remove the existing slab, undercut the subgrade to a depth of 2 feet, add the 57 stone, install 12" diameter auguer cast piles down to bedrock at 48" o.c., install a 12" thick pile cap with #11 bars at 12" oc each way, each face, then top with 8" thick 5000 psi driveway slab with 4x4 welded wire fabric. Just covering my liability.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Mechguy, your house will probably cave in on itself if you don't remove the existing slab, undercut the subgrade to a depth of 2 feet, add the 57 stone, install 12" diameter auguer cast piles down to bedrock at 48" o.c., install a 12" thick pile cap with #11 bars at 12" oc each way, each face, then top with 8" thick 5000 psi driveway slab with 4x4 welded wire fabric. Just covering my liability.


I'd stamp that, but only after the Final Office Review is complete. Have you prepared the specifications manual for this?


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> Chucktown PE said:
> 
> 
> > Mechguy, your house will probably cave in on itself if you don't remove the existing slab, undercut the subgrade to a depth of 2 feet, add the 57 stone, install 12" diameter auguer cast piles down to bedrock at 48" o.c., install a 12" thick pile cap with #11 bars at 12" oc each way, each face, then top with 8" thick 5000 psi driveway slab with 4x4 welded wire fabric. Just covering my liability.
> ...


It's a big one. I've got a 30 page cast in place concrete spec, a 40 page auger cast pile spec, a 20 page pile testing spec, a 10 page reinforcing steel spec, a 10 page concrete formwork spec, and a 20 page earthwork spec. Plus I have about 200 pages of front end documents. Let me know your address and I'll FedEx you a copy but I'll need a project number to charge to.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > Chucktown PE said:
> ...


Just direct bill the client.


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Mechguy, you're going to owe me and Dexman about $32,000 for "consulting fees". The good news is that we saved you approximately $146,000 in foundation repair costs. So really this is a net gain for you. Construction should cost no more than $210,000.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Mechguy, you're going to owe me and Dexman about $32,000 for "consulting fees". The good news is that we saved you approximately $146,000 in foundation repair costs. So really this is a net gain for you. Construction should cost no more than $210,000.


For an additional $16K, I could perform the CM for this. If we start the bidding process on Friday, we could have the work done by mid May.


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## MechGuy (Feb 2, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> Mechguy, you're going to owe me and Dexman about $32,000 for "consulting fees". The good news is that we saved you approximately $146,000 in foundation repair costs. So really this is a net gain for you. Construction should cost no more than $210,000.


The ROM from my contracting officer on this type of work is somewhere between $50-$100... so I'm going to have to let the KO do the negotiations with you. Good luck winning the project!  I forgot to mention my KO uses a "lowest-cost, technically acceptable" method, as opposed to "best value."


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## Fluvial (Feb 2, 2010)

I seriously cannot believe y'all left out approximately 32.6 linear feet of underdrain, including 8.4 yards of washed gravel, 25 linear feet of perforated drain pipe, 29 yards of filter cloth and one small animal guard to put in the daylight end.


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Fluvial said:


> and one small animal guard to put in the daylight end.


Yuck, why you gotta be so damn perverted on here all the time?


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Dammit, now the Water Resource people are here...

Looks like MechGuy will need to implement a Bond Program in order for these improvements to occur.


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## Fluvial (Feb 2, 2010)

Chuck: I dunno, something about calculating all that head in the pipe ....


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Fluvial said:


> Chuck: I dunno, something about calculating all that head in the pipe ....


As long as you have good flow, and seepage is minimized.


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## Dleg (Feb 2, 2010)

I don't see anyone advising you to have an erosion and sediment control plan prepared and certified by a PE or CPESC. Chucktown's specs are useless if they don't call for that - you will find yourself shut down by the CODPH faster than you can say "silt fence" if you don't get your earthmoving permit first, and you cant' get it without the ESC plan and specs.

: ldman: :rtft:


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Just put up some silt fence. It's covered in the earthwork spec.


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## Dleg (Feb 2, 2010)

That won't satisfy most permitting authorities. He'll need a certified plan and have it approved beforehand.


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## cement (Feb 2, 2010)

actually, with all those diapers you are running thru Mechguy, just take a few of them and sprinkle the filling in the crack. they will absorb any available mosture and expand to fill any void there.

and keep your disturbance under an acre and you can avoid the stormwater permit from CDHPE.

unless you are in texas, then cdhpe won't bother you there either.


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## Dleg (Feb 2, 2010)

You could also settle a permit dispute with a duel, in Texas.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 2, 2010)

Sounds like you guys have all this geotech stuff figured out. I'll go back to making inane comments and posting photos.


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## Road Guy (Feb 2, 2010)

HOF thread


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## Dexman PE (Feb 2, 2010)

^^^nice


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## PE-ness (Feb 2, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> That looks like the right stuff. I would also suggest a sealant for the grout after it cures.
> When installing the grout, I would recommend using high-pressure air to clean out the groove as best as you can (especially each face of exisiting concrete). Then moisten both faces of the crack. The moisture will help remove any additional dust and will help the grout to adhere to the existing concrete as well as helping the grout cure properly.


^^All very good advice.


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## Santiagj (Feb 3, 2010)

Micropiles! You need them!


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## MechGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

cement said:


> actually, with all those diapers you are running thru Mechguy, just take a few of them and sprinkle the filling in the crack. they will absorb any available mosture and expand to fill any void there.


This is the best suggestion yet! I may have to rethink my strategy....



cement said:


> unless you are in texas, then cdhpe won't bother you there either.


Mechguy IS in texas....


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## TranspoVA (Feb 3, 2010)

Sounds like you need a transportation engineers opinion...I recommend a longitudinal dowel retrofit with polymer coated rebar. a new pcc surface course and obviously high grade silicone filler material...this solution also works well with mudjacking...The real cost question then becomes if you want to use 3000 psi or 5000 psi concrete...obviously due to liability concerns and unknown traffic counts I naturally have to recommend the 5K concrete.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 3, 2010)

I believe the 5000 psi concrete was already recommended by the geotechs...


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

When did this become a 'pile on the geotechs' thread? Nice to know our work is as well respected in the engineering community as in the rest of the world.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 3, 2010)

We're not piling on anything. The latest geotech report didn't have any piles in it...


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm just getting tired of my work getting shat on, or being viewed as easy or 'just a checkmark on the form' that needs to be taken care of. Guess who they usually come after first when things go wrong?


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## Mutha PE PS (Feb 3, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> I'm just getting tired of my work getting shat on, or being viewed as easy or 'just a checkmark on the form' that needs to be taken care of. Guess who they usually come after first when things go wrong?


Usually the Surveyor!


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## TranspoVA (Feb 3, 2010)

Geotechs always recommend 5000 psi concrete...and oddly enough none of the geotechs brought up soil borings or mechanical stabilization so Im a little disappointed.


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## MechGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> I'm just getting tired of my work getting shat on, or being viewed as easy or 'just a checkmark on the form' that needs to be taken care of. Guess who they usually come after first when things go wrong?


If it makes you feel any better FLBuff, I appreciate your inputs  I'm probably still going to go with the cheapest, quickest option though LOL


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

I've just got something stuck up my ass this week, apparently. Sorry for over-reacting. Carry on.


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## Ble_PE (Feb 3, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> I've just got something stuck up my ass this week, apparently. Sorry for over-reacting. Carry on.


Have you been working with PE-ness?


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## TranspoVA (Feb 3, 2010)

I always felt like my ethics class in college should have been titled...100 reasons why shouldn't be a geotechnical engineer...The majority of the case studies were about foundations and poor boring data


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## Dexman PE (Feb 3, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> I'm just getting tired of my work getting shat on, or being viewed as easy or 'just a checkmark on the form' that needs to be taken care of. Guess who they usually come after first when things go wrong?


Never said geotech was easy, or "fill in the blank" type work. It's just been my experience that the geotechs I typically work with provide reports that have ultra-conservative, expensive recommendations and are typically vague and over-generalized. One report I got for a 1/2 acre lot: "The water table will most likely be encountered anywhere between 5 and 30 feet deep. The soils in the site range from gravel to silty clay." What the hell am I going to do with this report (other than post it on the internet and poke fun at it)? I'm not saying YOU do this, it's just my experience...

It reminds me of my days back in college where everyone was ragging on the civils because it was considered the "easy" engineering. "Oh, not smart enough to be a chemical engineer?" No ass-clown, I like building things. And once in a while I like to get outside and see what I designed become something other than a pretty pink liquid in a beaker.

[/rant]


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## TranspoVA (Feb 3, 2010)

I agree with Dexman...geotech reports are super vague and ultra conservative and un-informative and not to mention super boring! ha ha get it...But I will give it to the geotechs in my experience they are the easiest to work with.


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## csb (Feb 3, 2010)

I feel like ass-clown is the word of the week and like we should all scream when someone "says" it.

:wub: for the geotechs...


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

Ble_PE said:


> FLBuff PE said:
> 
> 
> > I've just got something stuck up my ass this week, apparently. Sorry for over-reacting. Carry on.
> ...


I lobbed that one hoping someone would knock it out of the park.



Dexman PE said:


> Never said geotech was easy, or "fill in the blank" type work. It's just been my experience that the geotechs I typically work with provide reports that have ultra-conservative, expensive recommendations and are typically vague and over-generalized. One report I got for a 1/2 acre lot: "The water table will most likely be encountered anywhere between 5 and 30 feet deep. The soils in the site range from gravel to silty clay." What the hell am I going to do with this report (other than post it on the internet and poke fun at it)? I'm not saying YOU do this, it's just my experience...
> It reminds me of my days back in college where everyone was ragging on the civils because it was considered the "easy" engineering. "Oh, not smart enough to be a chemical engineer?" No ass-clown, I like building things. And once in a while I like to get outside and see what I designed become something other than a pretty pink liquid in a beaker.
> 
> [/rant]


I know you didn't. That's just the feeling I get from most of my clients and GCs out here. I would get reamed a new a--hole if I put oput a report like that. I do my best not to be vague, but our reports have become 60% CYA legalease, 40% actual engineering info. I'm getting really frusterated by it. I worked as a land development civil for my first 2 years out of school. Got my degree in environmental, had a lot of chem-e's in my classes, so I've gotten it from all sides.



TranspoVA said:


> I agree with Dexman...geotech reports are super vague and ultra conservative and un-informative and not to mention super boring! ha ha get it...But I will give it to the geotechs in my experience they are the easiest to work with.


I can understand that. See above. Wading through the legal stuff can be a PITA. I guess I could write my reports in short story format. "Once upon a time, XYZ, LLC wanted to build a subdivision on expansive soil..." Something along those lines.

BTW, sorry for being the ass-clown of the day.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 3, 2010)

I can't believe no one has mentioned the safety aspects of that slick concrete surface. If there isn't some siping cut into it, dude's car is going to slide into the side of the garage.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned the safety aspects of that slick concrete surface. If there isn't some siping cut into it, dude's car is going to slide into the side of the garage.


That would damage the foundation. Need a geotech?


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## Dexman PE (Feb 3, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned the safety aspects of that slick concrete surface. If there isn't some siping cut into it, dude's car is going to slide into the side of the garage.


I think it was addressed when the transpo guys chimed in:



TranspoVA said:


> Sounds like you need a transportation engineers opinion...I recommend a longitudinal dowel retrofit with polymer coated rebar. *a new pcc surface course* and obviously high grade silicone filler material...this solution also works well with mudjacking...The real cost question then becomes if you want to use 3000 psi or 5000 psi concrete...obviously due to liability concerns and unknown traffic counts I naturally have to recommend the 5K concrete.


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## Ble_PE (Feb 3, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> I lobbed that one hoping someone would knock it out of the park.


Yea, I usually only hit the lobs. 

But in all seriousness, I agree that ya'lls (geotech engineers) hands are tied by legal crap. You've always got to CYA and there are so many unknowns with soil, that it's best to err on the side of caution.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

Ble_PE said:


> FLBuff PE said:
> 
> 
> > I lobbed that one hoping someone would knock it out of the park.
> ...


"We cannot be held liable if MechGuy's 'fix' doesn't work. We give no warranty for our work. It is only valid for about 3 years, and not valid for use by others on other sites.'


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## MechGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I can't believe no one has mentioned the safety aspects of that slick concrete surface. If there isn't some siping cut into it, dude's car is going to slide into the side of the garage.


That's assuming I actually park a car in my garage, which I haven't been able to do since I moved in because all our crap is piled in there.


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## MonteBiker (Feb 3, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> FLBuff PE said:
> 
> 
> > I'm just getting tired of my work getting shat on, or being viewed as easy or 'just a checkmark on the form' that needs to be taken care of. Guess who they usually come after first when things go wrong?
> ...


I have never said it was "easy"... I typically refer to it as "voodoo" and have always guessed that there was some sort of animal sacrifice that went along with producing the geotech report.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

MonteBiker said:


> I have never said it was "easy"... I typically refer to it as "voodoo" and have always guessed that there was some sort of animal sacrifice that went along with producing the geotech report.


Trade secrect. Sorry. :burgerking: :goat:


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## TranspoVA (Feb 3, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > I can't believe no one has mentioned the safety aspects of that slick concrete surface. If there isn't some siping cut into it, dude's car is going to slide into the side of the garage.
> ...


Sorry this is a spec issue..."raking" the surface is incidental to constructing a pcc overlay..this allows for drainage and traction


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## Fluvial (Feb 3, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> dude's car is going to slide into the side of the garage.


Wait ... what is Dude doing over there?

Does MechGuy know about this ?? hmy:


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## Dexman PE (Feb 3, 2010)

Are there unauthorized consultant visits to your client Mechguy? We may need to address this in the spec book. We can add it to the scope for pure cost ($6500).


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## MechGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

Fluvial said:


> Wait ... what is Dude doing over there? Does MechGuy know about this ?? hmy:


Its all good... the Dude abides.


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## Dleg (Feb 3, 2010)

I'm surprised JR hasn't chimed in here yet with the possibility that your house might be located over an old spill site, and the driveway separation a troubling symptom of gasoline vapor migration. You may need to temporarily relocate your family, jack the house up, install a vapor barrier, or worse.

Things could start to get really ugly if you have to start working with the enviro engineers.


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## csb (Feb 3, 2010)

nail it

soil nail it, that is...

TOP! :bananalama:


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## Guest (Feb 3, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> Never said geotech was easy, or "fill in the blank" type work. It's just been my experience that the geotechs I typically work with provide reports that have ultra-conservative, expensive recommendations and are typically vague and over-generalized. One report I got for a 1/2 acre lot: "The water table will most likely be encountered anywhere between 5 and 30 feet deep. The soils in the site range from gravel to silty clay." What the hell am I going to do with this report (other than post it on the internet and poke fun at it)? I'm not saying YOU do this, it's just my experience...


In defense of my fellow geotech engineers, I think we have all seen very POORLY conceived reports from practically any discipline in engineering where the report really offered nothing that a half-witted person (notice I didn't say retard) and an inner-net connection couldn't figure out on their own.

Just today I received a report that deserved ---&gt; 





csb said:


> I feel like ass-clown is the word of the week and like we should all scream when someone "says" it.


You mean like .... 





csb said:


> :wub: for the geotechs...


Thanks ... except you seemed to have pierced me .... 





Ble_PE said:


> But in all seriousness, I agree that ya'lls (geotech engineers) hands are tied by legal crap. You've always got to CYA and there are so many unknowns with soil, that it's best to err on the side of caution.


Not only are you dealing with so many unknowns, typically the field/lab testing doesn't offer enough insight or level of comfort to provide unqualified analysis. I am reviewing tons of geotech data now and I have to explain to my company why I am requesting even more geotechnical investigations when there is already a lot of data that has been collected.



Dleg said:


> I'm surprised JR hasn't chimed in here yet with the possibility that your house might be located over an old spill site, and the driveway separation a troubling symptom of gasoline vapor migration. You may need to temporarily relocate your family, jack the house up, install a vapor barrier, or worse.
> Things could start to get really ugly if you have to start working with the enviro engineers.


Hey there island boy .... I actually werk for a livin' now!! 

Dleg is right though - you could easily be located over a legacy release that has created upward migration of vapors that have buckled the slab. It would require immediate evacuation to avoid atmospheres that are immediately dangerous to life and health! I can recommend an incident commander and a standby hazmat response team to investigate if you like! 

When do we get to duel over our different ideas? I'm a ready ... 



JR


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 3, 2010)

The house could also be located over an old Native American burial ground. Those vapors that are escaping through that crack? Souls. I suggest moving.


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## Fluvial (Feb 3, 2010)

I hate to bring it up but I think I just saw a gopher tortoise in Mech's yard ... with an arrowhead in its mouth !!


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## MechGuy (Feb 3, 2010)

Dleg said:


> Things could start to get really ugly if you have to start working with the enviro engineers.



Did I mention that a family of toads might be living in the crack? Possibly endangered species... my project might be toast!


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## Dleg (Feb 3, 2010)

Shit. Now you're going to have to hire a PhD herpetologist to prepare a biological assessment for you to submit to the US Fish and Wildlife Service to initiate a Section 10 ESA consultation.


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## Road Guy (Feb 4, 2010)

you defin need a geotech if its a wall / bridge foundation or similar, we run into a lot of bad soil on our road projects, we have geotechs on call and we stopped calling them for road related issues, 9 times out of 10 they give a very conservative recommendation, undercut 3 to 4 feet, etc.. I know they have to because of liability, but its rare even on interstate roads (down here) to undercut more than 18 inches...not saying its not ever done, but I asked the guy who used to be over construction for the entire state dot and he is the one who gave me that info..

usually we just make the call to undercut a foot, put down some good fabric on both sides and it works...

sorry fellow eb.com geotechs is I insulted you!


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## Chucktown PE (Feb 4, 2010)

In my opinion, the only option right now is to bulldoze the house, have the lot condemned, have Mechguy apply to the federal government for disaster relief, and move to a new house.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 4, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> That's assuming I actually park a car in my garage, which I haven't been able to do since I moved in because all our crap is piled in there.


Sounds like a client/consultant issue there.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 4, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> The house could also be located over an old Native American burial ground. Those vapors that are escaping through that crack? Souls. I suggest moving.


Dang, you beat me to it.


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 4, 2010)

Chucktown PE said:


> In my opinion, the only option right now is to bulldoze the house, have the lot condemned, have Mechguy apply to the federal government for disaster relief, and move to a new house.


He can probably get a good deal on one of them FEMA trailers...


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## Road Guy (Feb 4, 2010)

ever watch Holmes on Homes on (HGTV) I like how the guy will be hired to fix a leaky shower and end up rebuilding half of the house before he is done,, you know they cut a little into this load bearing beam,even though its been like this for 40 years I have no choice but to tear the roof of the house and build it right..

although I have to say I watch that show A Lot...


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## FLBuff PE (Feb 4, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> ever watch Holmes on Homes on (HGTV) I like how the guy will be hired to fix a leaky shower and end up rebuilding half of the house before he is done,, you know they cut a little into this load bearing beam,even though its been like this for 40 years I have no choice but to tear the roof of the house and build it right..
> although I have to say I watch that show A Lot...


I watched it for the first time last night. I like how he needed 2 steel I-beams around the 4 2x10's.


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## csb (Feb 4, 2010)

FLBuff PE said:


> The house could also be located over an old Native American burial ground. Those vapors that are escaping through that crack? Souls. I suggest moving.


Oh my gosh. This brought tears to my eyes from laughter.


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