# e-submitting permits



## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 9, 2007)

So the Vermont DEC is going to an electronic filing program for their permit submittals. You send drawings in a dwf form and reports and stuff in pdf form. The only thing "hard copies" of anything are forms requiring signatures, fee check, hand calcs, and anything you can't physically do in an electronic form.

I think this is a great idea because it saves the cost and effort of printing all the sets of plans and reports. Just put it on a CD and drop it in the mail.

The only thing I'm worried about is document assembly. Like when you've got a report that includes text, plan sheets, spreadsheets, model output, etc. How will you pull that off now?

Anyone else work somewhere where they've gone/are going to e-filing?


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2007)

Actually, the final approval is in play from EPA to utilize a portal that accepts everything electronically. My Department has been using some program called e-Post to send out correspondence for awhile. It still has some bugs, but we are working on it. We have also been accepting electronic deliverables (correspondence, reports, etc.). Typically, the reports are submitted in PDF format. Sometimes things can be mis-translated or out of sort, but mostly it works okay.

Overall - I say it is a mixed bag.

JR


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## JohnNevets (Feb 9, 2007)

I'm a bit surprised that they are not using PDF for everything, drawings and reports. I guess all those lobbyist Autodesk hires are earning there money. Don't get me wrong, I use AutoCAD on a daily basis at work for 2D work and love it, but I have a big issue with proprietary file formats. I think it is great that they are starting to go to more electronic submittals. But in my dream/fantasy world a group like ASCE, ASME, IEEE, ASTM, or one made up of all 4 would lead the way to developing an open format that all programs could use, work in a bunch of meta tags and abilities to set use rights, and play well with other parts or smaller drawings (depending on if 3D or 2D). Then people could buy what ever program fit there needs, not worry about what format is most popular.

Sorry about the rant, but I work in an industry that makes architectural products (commercial windows) and I think it's a shame that you cant "build" the buildings fully electronically before building them in real life. We end up redrawing, tons of things that are not even our product, just things next to our product, even when we get electronic files from the architects. And we still have to ask tons of RFI's for dimensions and conditions, where if all the subs could just plug there parts into an architects master building it would save a ton of time and frustration. Then the only battle would get the builders to build it like it is on the screen :beerchug: .

Have a good weekend all,

John


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## Dleg (Feb 11, 2007)

^^ I agree completely. It's easy to make a pdf from an Autocad file, so why not? We folks in government are supposed to be keeping records not just for our own use but the public's as well. If Joe Public comes in to question why we granted the permit for Mr. Porky's Pig Farm down by the beach, and all I have is .dwf files, I'd be looking over my shoulder for lawsuits....


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## grover (Feb 13, 2007)

My last office (federal) implemented an all-electronic policy about 8 years ago, mainly to ease archiving costs. It worked out pretty well, I think- was a big paradigm shift for the old guys, but since everyone already prepares all the drawings in electronic format, it wasn't that big of a deal to change. For drawing review we would accept hardcopies or electronic copies in any format, but for final issue, we required an editable copy, preferably in AutoCAD, although others were acceptable. Anything proprietary (mostly output from special software) must have a pdf of xml version in addition to the data file. Word and Excel were taken as Word and Excel. Hand calcs were generally scanned into pdf. Signatures were no longer actually ever signed- approval switched from a signature to a verbal or emailed "it's approved". Since this was federal, PE stamps were not required and were thus not an issue.

I implemented a similar policy last year in my new office when I was promoted.


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## Ugly Kid Joe (Feb 14, 2007)

our clients are pdf'g is to death (with requests)

but I guess it s a good way for them to make sure the consultnats are on their toes.

every week we seem to get "hey can you pdf me the utility plans" or something similar..


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 15, 2007)

pdf's don't always work so hot for .dwg drawings. I prefer the .dwf form which is basically "read-only CAD."

But of course 99% of the time you are sending the drawings to a layman who can barely turn on a computer, much less has any sophisticated software knowledge.

I had one guy complain to me that he wanted his pdf's at 24x36, and we kept sending it to him at 8.5x11. I eventually had to step the genius through how to change which printer it was directing the file to, as it was set to an office printer with letter/legal capability only.


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## JohnNevets (Feb 15, 2007)

VTE,

After i made my comment, I did a bit more reaserch. And to be honest, the .dwf meets most of what I said an "Ideal" format would. The problem is though that since it was started by Autodesk, there is little chance that other software producers are going to support it. Even thought we don't send any stamped drawings out electronically, we do send review sets to customers quite often. We have used a couple of commercail programs that plugin to AutoCAD, the best seems to be Acroplot (SP). However, since we are too cheep to put it on each seat of cad we have, I use a free program called Primo-PDF to convert a lot of my stuff, and it works pretty good. Also because it basically acts like a printer, you can send any file type through it, so I use it for a lot of the calculations/ stuctural progam outputs as well.

Just thought I'd add another 2 cents to the pile,

John


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## Guest (Feb 16, 2007)

I was just told that my Department (Florida Dept of Environmental Protection) was in the process of rulemaking to accept a Federally Standardized portal for accepting electronic documents called COMAIR (I don't know if this is the right acronym, but that was how it was pronounced). The rulemaking covers documents that are submitted electronically to the agency under programs governed under Chapter 40 of the CFR. Apparently authorized states must go through rulemaking to adopt those standards for electronic acceptance of documents because of 'security' protocols.

I am looking more into this because there are a number of implications for the program I work in.

JR


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## FusionWhite (Feb 17, 2007)

The Kentucky DEP takes paper permit applications and then scans them with a high speed scanner into a propriatery (sp?) format which can only be accessed by the state system. This system works pretty well except for the fact that A) it costs a lot of money to pay people to scan all that stuff in and :thumbs: if they ever move over to another program they're screwed because the format of the documents is so screwy.

Good thing I got out of there.


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2007)

I was in a meeting today regarding the electronic acceptance of permitting files.

I was incorrect - the name of the EPA program is called CROMERRR which stands for Cross-Media Electronic Reporting Rule. The final rules for this program are promulgated in Federal Register: October 13, 2005 (Volume 70, Number 197, Page 59847-59889). For more information:

CROMERR Information and Rule

Written Comments opposing CROMERRR received from Chem Manufacturer's Assoc.

Testimony to House Committee for SBA by Chemical Manufacturer's Assoc

I am still trying to figure out how professional seals are carried through this process. I did not receive an answer to that in the meeting. I will update as I come across additional information.

JR


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 20, 2007)

I've submitted documents with my stamp and seal electronically scanned into the drawing and haven't had much of a problem with it.

The stamp business really varies deaprtment to department here. In some cases, we've been close to a permit and have just "pdf'd" them the revised sheet and got the permit.

In other cases, they won't even review our first submittal unless it's all been signed and sealed. I think it depends on the admin person who logs the submittal into the review queue. Some are normal people, others are mindlessly following a checklist and are totally unreasonable.


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## jeb6294 (Feb 21, 2007)

I just ran across this thread, but I've been using a program to do this kind of thing for a little while now. It's called PDF995. It's a free .pdf writer and when it's installed, it just shows up in your list of printers same as any other printer. When you hit print it just brings up a window asking you where you'd like to save the .pdf to. To use the free version you have to put up with a stupid little "sponsor" window that pops up, but that's about it. They've also got a .pdf edit program that's also free. One of the nifty things it'll do is merge .pdf's into one file. Just pick the .pdf's you want to merge and sort them in whatever order you want them and it makes them into a new file.

I've been using this for a while now whenever I want to send a drainage report to someone via email. Makes it really nice...I can have one .pdf file that is my Excel spreadsheet, TR-55 sheets and drainage maps all in one.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 21, 2007)

> They've also got a .pdf edit program that's also free. One of the nifty things it'll do is merge .pdf's into one file. Just pick the .pdf's you want to merge and sort them in whatever order you want them and it makes them into a new file.


Now that is a nice function. One of the hurdles with e-submitting things is how the hell do you submit your report that contained a Word narrative, Excel spreadsheets, some model output, and a couple .dwg sheets. Does this overcome that well?


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## jeb6294 (Feb 22, 2007)

Between the writer and the editor it works pretty well. The nice thing about the writer is that you still do your print setup the same way you would for any other printer. The only difference is that instead of coming out on a printer it spits out a .pdf file so you have a lot of control over how it looks.

When you want to compile .pdf's it opens a little window with a button that says "Add PDF..." That opens an "Open" window same as any other program and you just pull .pdf's from anywhere on your computer or network. Once you have all your files there's a "Move Up" and "Move Down" button that lets your rearrange where each file is in your list. The new .pdf is each of your files in the same order they are in your list. All you do then is hit the button and tell it where to save your file and what to call it.

PDF995 Download

Here's a link if you want to give it a try. It's free to use the "sponsored" version (you get an ad pop up whenever you make a .pdf or open the editor, not a big deal) but it's only $20 to upgrade it if you end up using it a lot.


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## FusionWhite (Feb 23, 2007)

Ill try that program out. We have major issues in our office with creating .PDF's. Only select computers have a .PDF conversion program so its a bastard to get one created.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Feb 23, 2007)

We've got a couple of those virtual pdf printers here as well that work fairly well. They just churn out pdfs though, nothing you can edit or fill in.

This pompous guy who works here who thinks he's the deal but has the computer skills of an 80 year old granny. He was waiting by the printer making a big stink about why his document wouldn't come out. Someone checked to see what his problem was. He said I've been trying to print this out as a pdf 10 times but it still won't print. Dummy. :thumbs:


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