# Important question regarding state rules for PE/FE exams



## jharris (Jul 9, 2009)

I have a question and hopefully someone here will have answer; although I know this is a strictly PE section (I presented the same question as a topic in the FE section with only a couple not too helpful comments), but I have a question regarding state rules for repeat test takers. I failed the FE three times in a state whose law is that after three failures you must sit out for two years. I can't imagine sitting for two years, putting my professional endeavors on hold and forgetting the information that I have retained, so I decided I could possibly circumvent this by applying as a first time applicant in another state.

My logic is that since this is not an NCEES rule, rather a state law, it might not be recognized by other states. If anyone has taken the PE/FE more times than their state allotted, did you sit out or did you take it in another state? Is this common practice (to just apply somewhere else), or do you have to sit out?


----------



## Dleg (Jul 9, 2009)

I think you're right - it's just a rule in your state. You should be able to take the text in another state, as long as you meet their application requirements.


----------



## jharris (Jul 10, 2009)

Not to discredit Dleg (and I hope you're right for my sake, though I'm almost certain you are), but does anyone else know about this for certain?


----------



## goodal (Jul 10, 2009)

easy way to find out. look at a neighboring states requirements on their webiste.


----------



## CivE Bricky (Jul 10, 2009)

NY allows you to take the PE exam unlimited times with no special requirements.

The exam is typically offered in NYC, Albany, Syracuse and Buffalo.

Approval of experience can be tricky (follow directions exactly)--I did word search for "involved" "participated" and replaced those words with more specific descriptions.

Continuing Ed requirements are fairly strict compared to other states, but kick in after the first 3 years (which would give you time to get licensed elsewhere).

&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;just took PE for a third time.


----------



## snickerd3 (Jul 10, 2009)

You could always encounter a problem if you want to later get your PE in the state where you had the 3 failures...depends on how they review the application for the PE. How much time do you have between passing the FE and taking the PE?


----------



## jharris (Jul 10, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> You could always encounter a problem if you want to later get your PE in the state where you had the 3 failures...depends on how they review the application for the PE. How much time do you have between passing the FE and taking the PE?


Two years.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 11, 2009)

jharris said:


> Not to discredit Dleg (and I hope you're right for my sake, though I'm almost certain you are), but does anyone else know about this for certain?


You need to stop waiting for opinions here and get on with doing the due diligence for the state you want to apply with. It is up the the specific state board to decide and I'd think most applications for examination don't ask "have you ever applied for examination in another state?".

If you're really motivated to take the exam again, submit your application in another state and see what happens - it's only a matter of money and time... what are you waiting for?!?

The obvious advice: figure out what you need to do different to achieve better results. I recommend Testmasters. Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results is the definition of insanity!


----------



## Paul S (Jul 11, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I'd think most applications for examination don't ask "have you ever applied for examination in another state?".


I know at least several states do ask if you were ever denied a license in another state on the PE application, I am not sure about the FE application, but some states may have residency requirements also. The best bet is to do some research on the state boards, read the state laws, and ask question to the boards.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 11, 2009)

Paul S said:


> I know at least several states do ask if you were ever denied a license in another state on the PE application, I am not sure about the FE application, but some states may have residency requirements also. The best bet is to do some research on the state boards, read the state laws, and ask question to the boards.


Yeah... "licensure" is another story... though even there, I'd bet lots of beer that most states don't ask "have you ever applied", which is different than being "denied" a license. All good points above.


----------



## jharris (Jul 12, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> You need to stop waiting for opinions here and get on with doing the due diligence for the state you want to apply with. It is up the the specific state board to decide and I'd think most applications for examination don't ask "have you ever applied for examination in another state?".
> If you're really motivated to take the exam again, submit your application in another state and see what happens - it's only a matter of money and time... what are you waiting for?!?
> 
> The obvious advice: figure out what you need to do different to achieve better results. I recommend Testmasters. Doing the same thing over and over again while expecting different results is the definition of insanity!


Thanks, IlPadrino. I'm going to apply in another state this week. I've looked at Testmasters but I can't afford it. Judging by the diagnostic report, I'm inching closer to the mark, but I think I haven't given myself enough time to study and I hadn't done enough practice exams. I understand most of the material and it hasn't been hard to self-teach myself the material I wasn't familiar with. I think I'm getting burnt out in the afternoon. This time I'm going to begin studying sooner and take some practice exams a decent time in advance of the test.


----------



## Paul S (Jul 12, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Yeah... "licensure" is another story... though even there, I'd bet lots of beer that most states don't ask "have you ever applied", which is different than being "denied" a license. All good points above.


I will take some of that beer! But I still read that as if you apply to a state, and they deny you the right to take the exam, then you are denied the license.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 13, 2009)

jharris said:


> I'm going to apply in another state this week... This time I'm going to begin studying sooner and take some practice exams a decent time in advance of the test.


That's the attitude! We're pulling for you...


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 13, 2009)

Paul S said:


> I will take some of that beer! But I still read that as if you apply to a state, and they deny you the right to take the exam, then you are denied the license.


You're ON!... Allow me to start. Oregon's application makes no mention of being denied a license or having even applied. Now it's your turn to find a state that asks about being denied a license. And we'll keep taking turns.

And, still, I don't think failure to pass an exam is the same as being "denied" a license. But maybe that's just semantics.


----------



## jharris (Jul 13, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> You're ON!... Allow me to start. Oregon's application makes no mention of being denied a license or having even applied. Now it's your turn to find a state that asks about being denied a license. And we'll keep taking turns.
> And, still, I don't think failure to pass an exam is the same as being "denied" a license. But maybe that's just semantics.


I just contacted my state and was told I could take it again in another state. Thankfully the other state to which I am applying has not reached their application deadline. I guess these things are in my favor. The only thing I need to do now is determine how I'm going to execute my plan to pass.


----------



## Paul S (Jul 13, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> You're ON!... Allow me to start. Oregon's application makes no mention of being denied a license or having even applied. Now it's your turn to find a state that asks about being denied a license. And we'll keep taking turns.
> And, still, I don't think failure to pass an exam is the same as being "denied" a license. But maybe that's just semantics.


Sweet!

If you fail x amount of times, and then the application states you can not apply since you failed x amount of times, I think that the state would be denying you the license.

Ok Here is Pennsylvania's application: PA PA Application

And here is the question: _Have you withdrawn an application for a license, had an application for a license denied or_

refused, or agreed not to reapply for a license in any state or jurisdiction?


----------



## jharris (Jul 13, 2009)

Paul S said:


> Sweet!
> If you fail x amount of times, and then the application states you can not apply since you failed x amount of times, I think that the state would be denying you the license.
> 
> Ok Here is Pennsylvania's application: PA PA Application
> ...


In order for an application to be denied, you would first have to *apply*. If you understand whatever the prevailing rule is for repeat failures and don't apply, you technically would never have had an application denied. Maybe if someone had high hopes that their state would miraculously change the rules just for them, and they applied to their state even after being made aware of the rules and their application was denied, well, that counts as a denied application.

I'm just glad I've been persistent. I know a few people who gave up after their third failure and never looked to see if they could at least re-apply in another state. I can't give up on my professional goals that easily.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 13, 2009)

jharris said:


> I just contacted my state and was told I could take it again in another state. Thankfully the other state to which I am applying has not reached their application deadline. I guess these things are in my favor. The only thing I need to do now is determine how I'm going to execute my plan to pass.


I'd be careful... it doesn't matter what "your" state (I assume you mean the one you've currently been dealing with) says about "another" state. Licensing is a state function and the only thing that matters is the state you're applying with (that is, the other/new state).


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 13, 2009)

Paul S said:


> Ok Here is Pennsylvania's application: PA PA ApplicationAnd here is the question: _Have you withdrawn an application for a license, had an application for a license denied or_
> 
> refused, or agreed not to reapply for a license in any state or jurisdiction?


I'm not sure I agree that failing the exam is the same as having an application for a license denied... but I'll give you the point. OK... 1-1.

Here's my next one from VA's application:



```
9.  Have you ever taken the Principles of Engineering (PE) examination in Virginia?
```




```
15.  Have you ever been subject to a disciplinary action imposed by any (including Virginia) local, state or national regulatory body?
```

Which one of us will give up first?


----------



## Paul S (Jul 13, 2009)

jharris said:


> In order for an application to be denied, you would first have to *apply*. If you understand whatever the prevailing rule is for repeat failures and don't apply, you technically would never have had an application denied. Maybe if someone had high hopes that their state would miraculously change the rules just for them, and they applied to their state even after being made aware of the rules and their application was denied, well, that counts as a denied application.
> I'm just glad I've been persistent. I know a few people who gave up after their third failure and never looked to see if they could at least re-apply in another state. I can't give up on my professional goals that easily.


Yes, my point is based on if you apply and then get denied. If you do not apply to your state you were never denied!


----------



## Paul S (Jul 13, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I'm not sure I agree that failing the exam is the same as having an application for a license denied... but I'll give you the point. OK... 1-1.
> Here's my next one from VA's application:
> 
> 
> ...


I think this can go on forever, maybe we can buy each other a beer? :beerchug:

This is from Conneticuit: _Have you ever been refused by any State or Territory of the United States a license as a Professional Engineer, Land Surveyor, Engineer-in-Training or Land_

Surveyor-in-Training or have you ever held such license which has lapsed, suspended or revoked? YES [ ] NO [ ]

If YES, please explain.

All of these depend on how you interpret the question, but in this case if the OP sent in his application one more time, they would be denying him the EIT license. If he does not send in the application to his own state he was never denied and therefore need not worry about these questions.

Do you agree that if the OP sends in his application and their state board will not let them take the test until the required waiting period, then they are being denied the license during that time frame?


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 13, 2009)

Paul S said:


> I think this can go on forever, maybe we can buy each other a beer? :beerchug:


I'll gladly buy you a beer (whenever you're in DC), but I'm good for a few more volleys! The FL FE Application only has the following:



```
Have you ever been convicted or found guilty, or entered a plea of guilty or nolo contendre regardless of adjudication, of a crime in any jurisdiction, or have you ever been found guilty by a military court-martial? (Do not include pending charges or non-criminal traffic violations.)
```




Paul S said:


> All of these depend on how you interpret the question, but in this case if the OP sent in his application one more time, they would be denying him the EIT license. If he does not send in the application to his own state he was never denied and therefore need not worry about these questions.
> Do you agree that if the OP sends in his application and their state board will not let them take the test until the required waiting period, then they are being denied the license during that time frame?


No... I don't agree. In order to get an EI/EIT certification in any state, you need certain things. One of them is to pass the FE exam. Certain states won't let you take the exam more than three times unless you meet some other conditions (wait a period of time, for example). If you request to take the test, you have to apply. In many (most or all?) states, all you're doing is applying to take a test - it isn't a request for a license. As an example, consider FL where you apply to take the exam and then you're "certified" as an EI. If you want proof of certification, you send in another form.

Arghhh! If only jharris would have told us what state he was working with...


----------



## Paul S (Jul 14, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I'll gladly buy you a beer (whenever you're in DC), but I'm good for a few more volleys!
> No... I don't agree. In order to get an EI/EIT certification in any state, you need certain things. One of them is to pass the FE exam. Certain states won't let you take the exam more than three times unless you meet some other conditions (wait a period of time, for example). If you request to take the test, you have to apply. In many (most or all?) states, all you're doing is applying to take a test - it isn't a request for a license. As an example, consider FL where you apply to take the exam and then you're "certified" as an EI. If you want proof of certification, you send in another form.
> 
> Arghhh! If only jharris would have told us what state he was working with...


I do not agree with the generalizations of "most or all states", but I think this is a good discussion that actually may help others.

It appears that depending upon what state we are in and how denied is interpreted. I agree with your arguments, but the engineer in me needs to take the worst case! I will pose this question then, what would be an example or the definition of a denied FE/PE license? The only example (besides my previous argument) that I can think of that is close would be if you are a PE from a state that waived your FE exam applying for comity in another state that requires the FE exam. Are you denied the license because you did not take the FE or do you just not meet the requirements? Or are you denied the license until you meet the requirements?


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 14, 2009)

Paul S said:


> I do not agree with the generalizations of "most or all states", but I think this is a good discussion that actually may help others.


Yes... I think it's a good discussion, too - even if a bit confusing because there's a difference between being a "certified" EI/EIT and a "licensed" PE. Why do you consider the denial of taking an FE exam tantamount to being "denied a license"? For me, this is the real discussion.



Paul S said:


> It appears that depending upon what state we are in and how denied is interpreted. I agree with your arguments, but the engineer in me needs to take the worst case! I will pose this question then, what would be an example or the definition of a denied FE/PE license? The only example (besides my previous argument) that I can think of that is close would be if you are a PE from a state that waived your FE exam applying for comity in another state that requires the FE exam. Are you denied the license because you did not take the FE or do you just not meet the requirements? Or are you denied the license until you meet the requirements?


Good question... and your examples are probably the most common in addition to insufficient creditable experience. But what about felony convictions or moral issues?

To answer your questions specifically, I don't think ineligibility to take an exam equals denial of a license for the FE.


----------



## Paul S (Jul 14, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Yes... I think it's a good discussion, too - even if a bit confusing because there's a difference between being a "certified" EI/EIT and a "licensed" PE. Why do you consider the denial of taking an FE exam tantamount to being "denied a license"? For me, this is the real discussion.


Good question, especially since I was more focused on the PE for this argument. At least in PA, if the EIT is passed, ones name will be listed in the license database as having an EIT License and a license number is provided. So if I applied to PA to take the FE exam, and the state board denied my application for any reason, then they are in turn denying the EIT License in PA. I don't think it matters if you are qualified or not for this discussion, if the board send you a letter in the mail saying you can not take the exam, then you are denied that license.



IlPadrino said:


> Good question... and your examples are probably the most common in addition to insufficient creditable experience. But what about felony convictions or moral issues?
> To answer your questions specifically, I don't think ineligibility to take an exam equals denial of a license for the FE.


Insufficient experience and felonies are typically covered in different portions of the applications, and both of these will lead to being denied taking the exam. Can you elaborate on moral issues?

I also agree that ineligibility does not equal denial of license, as long as you do not apply. Let's say someone applies for the FE or PE by sending in the application and fees and all paperwork, and for whatever reason, that board sends back a letter stating that for whatever reason they will not allow you to take the exam. So that person, being resourceful looks to other states and finds a state in which all the requirements are fullfilled. But one of the questions on the application is "Have you ever been denied a PE or FE license or certificate previously." All I am really saying here is that morally and ethically, that person should answer yes, and then explain the situation with the other state. This answer should not change the decision of the state board as long as the applicant is eligible in that 2nd state.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 14, 2009)

Paul S said:


> Good question, especially since I was more focused on the PE for this argument. At least in PA, if the EIT is passed, ones name will be listed in the license database as having an EIT License and a license number is provided. So if I applied to PA to take the FE exam, and the state board denied my application for any reason, then they are in turn denying the EIT License in PA. I don't think it matters if you are qualified or not for this discussion, if the board send you a letter in the mail saying you can not take the exam, then you are denied that license.
> I also agree that ineligibility does not equal denial of license, as long as you do not apply. Let's say someone applies for the FE or PE by sending in the application and fees and all paperwork, and for whatever reason, that board sends back a letter stating that for whatever reason they will not allow you to take the exam. So that person, being resourceful looks to other states and finds a state in which all the requirements are fullfilled. But one of the questions on the application is "Have you ever been denied a PE or FE license or certificate previously." All I am really saying here is that morally and ethically, that person should answer yes, and then explain the situation with the other state. This answer should not change the decision of the state board as long as the applicant is eligible in that 2nd state.


It would seem that in PA, you're applying to take a test and if you pass, you're automatically given a license. What's at the top of the application form, "EI Application" or "FE Exam"?

Regardless, you agree that so long as you don't ask to take the FE test the fourth time, you're OK with checking "no" to the "ever been denied a license" question? The sea lawyer in me also suggest "a license" refers to a PE license (as opposed to a hair dresser's license).

And that leads me to another direction... I think NCEES is against the idea of "exam shopping" where candidates find a state more favorable to their situation. Anyone have any information on this?


----------



## Paul S (Jul 15, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> It would seem that in PA, you're applying to take a test and if you pass, you're automatically given a license. What's at the top of the application form, "EI Application" or "FE Exam"?
> Regardless, you agree that so long as you don't ask to take the FE test the fourth time, you're OK with checking "no" to the "ever been denied a license" question? The sea lawyer in me also suggest "a license" refers to a PE license (as opposed to a hair dresser's license).


I have run out of steam and declare you victorious in this discussion, and owe you a beer! I just perused the PA FE application and it is basically labeled as a scheduling form for the FE exam, the PE application as "Application for examination, Professional Engineer". However the FE application does ask this question:

_Have you ever withdrawn an application, had an application denied or refused, or agreed not to reapply_

for a license, certification or registration in another state, territory or country?

I do agree that if the OP does not apply to their state, then they are free to do as they wish on other state applications and have no reason to indicated anything was denied. If this was what we were arguing then I owe you several beers!

On the PA license search website you can search for PE FE, and many other licensed professionals, such as Barbers.


----------



## IlPadrino (Jul 16, 2009)

Paul S said:


> I have run out of steam...


Good thing, because I didn't have much left myself! In the interest of harmony, I'll buy *YOU* the beer but you'll have to come to DC to collect.


----------



## Paul S (Jul 16, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Good thing, because I didn't have much left myself! In the interest of harmony, I'll buy *YOU* the beer but you'll have to come to DC to collect.


Fair enough! :beerchug:


----------



## easygoing (Jul 17, 2009)

jharris said:


> Thanks, IlPadrino. I'm going to apply in another state this week. I've looked at Testmasters but I can't afford it. Judging by the diagnostic report, I'm inching closer to the mark, but I think I haven't given myself enough time to study and I hadn't done enough practice exams. I understand most of the material and it hasn't been hard to self-teach myself the material I wasn't familiar with. I think I'm getting burnt out in the afternoon. This time I'm going to begin studying sooner and take some practice exams a decent time in advance of the test.


Which state will you be taking the exam? I know in New York City, there are several options for the review classes, like PERC. It has been around for a long time and I recommend it. Some advice is to stick strickly to the NCEES exam specs. Don't get bogged down on a question...it should take you about 15 seconds to read the problem, if you don't know it, then move on. I hope this helps.


----------

