# Traffic Engineer experience does not qualify for Civil?



## martin.li (Jun 16, 2011)

I am planning to take the PE CIVIL exam in October 2011.

The problem. My supervisor (who has over 20 years experience in traffic design and planning) recently applied and got denied. The board disqualified all his experience because they don't consider traffic related work to be Civil work.

As I'm filing out my own application, I am lost as to what to write in the experience part. Would someone in the traffic engineering field care to help out? What exactly needs to be filled out in order to take the test?

The deadline for the application is July 7th. That gives me a little less than a week to send my app to all my engagements and have them sign it.

Someone please HELP!


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## PsychoNumber1 (Jun 16, 2011)

well what do you do typically? you may need to just be a little creative in the description (and i don't mean lie) and maybe make the answers a little vague. i had a friend denied for the same reason, but he reapplied with new descriptions and didn't have any problems. if you don't mind me asking, where do you work?


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## Boomer01 PE (Jun 16, 2011)

I just passed the PE and all of my experience is with a traffic engineering consulting firm. I had no problems whatsoever. If he is more of a planner than an engineer then maybe that's why.


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## Road Guy (Jun 16, 2011)

there is a lot in the write up, make it very focused on the traffic "ENGINEERING" part and decision making.

Use some of the "buzz words" from the NCEES exam breakdown in your descrption (Utilize Highway Capacity Manual to decide capacity of interstate system, etc, etc, etc, )


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## ptatohed (Jun 18, 2011)

Use the word 'Transportation' instead of 'Traffic'?


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## martin.li (Jun 18, 2011)

PsychoNumber1 said:


> well what do you do typically? you may need to just be a little creative in the description (and i don't mean lie) and maybe make the answers a little vague. i had a friend denied for the same reason, but he reapplied with new descriptions and didn't have any problems. if you don't mind me asking, where do you work?



I work in Diamond Bar, CA. I've been trying to word my application as vaguely as possible (not lying but its called misrepresenting the truth)


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## martin.li (Jun 18, 2011)

ptatohed said:


> Use the word 'Transportation' instead of 'Traffic'?



My manager talked to one of the expert people the board has. She was telling him not to use the word traffic in anywhere. She was telling him that signing and stripping, traffic control plans, and other traffic/transportation related descriptions don't count.


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## martin.li (Jun 18, 2011)

Boomer01 said:


> I just passed the PE and all of my experience is with a traffic engineering consulting firm. I had no problems whatsoever. If he is more of a planner than an engineer then maybe that's why.



I work for a traffic firm but we also do Civil Engineering which I am not involved in. Typically a traffic consulting firm does

Traffic Engineering

Traffic Signal Engineering and System Synchronization

Traffic Impact Study and Parking Study

Traffic Calming and Pedestrian Safety Study

Traffic Control and Detour Design

Intelligent Transportation System (ITS)

I also do

Electrical Engineering

Roadway Lighting and Control Design

Streetscape and Landscape Lighting Design

Power Design and Planning

Could I see a sample of the wording used for your application? He is both a planner/designer. We do electrical and communications, its design, and other traffic related design.


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## roadwreck (Jun 18, 2011)

martin.li said:


> PsychoNumber1 said:
> 
> 
> > well what do you do typically? you may need to just be a little creative in the description (and i don't mean lie) and maybe make the answers a little vague. i had a friend denied for the same reason, but he reapplied with new descriptions and didn't have any problems. if you don't mind me asking, where do you work?
> ...


I wouldn't recommend you misrepresent anything! Like has been mentioned before, be specific about the ENGINEERING tasks that your perform. If that is suitable experience then you will be approved for the exam. If not then you will not. I would imagine that being vague would actually hurt your cause.

I don't understand why the California board would have an issue with Traffic Engineering. I know plenty of traffic engineers who have been able to sit for the exam.


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## benbo (Jun 18, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> I don't understand why the California board would have an issue with Traffic Engineering. I know plenty of traffic engineers who have been able to sit for the exam.


It might be because California has a separate traffic engineering license category. But I'm sure there are plety of peope who've worked their whole career at Caltrans (Cal DOT) with Civil licenses. I guess tHe best you can do is read the exam specs and try to emphsize the work tyou do that relates to those.


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## roadwreck (Jun 18, 2011)

benbo said:


> roadwreck said:
> 
> 
> > I don't understand why the California board would have an issue with Traffic Engineering. I know plenty of traffic engineers who have been able to sit for the exam.
> ...


If there is a separate traffic engineering license category then why not apply for that exam? Why apply for the Civil exam?


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## benbo (Jun 18, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> benbo said:
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> > roadwreck said:
> ...


California has it all messed up and complicated.

The Civil License and the Traffic License are in separate categories. THe Civil, mechanical and electric licenses are codified under the "practice act". Traffic is under a "title act". The practice act licenses sort of carry a little more panache and technically only engineers in these disciplines can "practice" engineering -* except* the big mucky muck licenses are under the authority act - Structural and Geotechnical - these are like a step above.

http://www.pels.ca.gov/applicants/appinstpe.shtml

It depends on what you want the license for. Where I work, all you need is some sort of PE license to hit the top level pay and advance. So if people have trouble with the civil they often try out the traffic license.


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## roadwreck (Jun 18, 2011)

benbo said:


> The Civil License and the Traffic License are in separate categories. THe Civil, mechanical and electric licenses are codified under the "practice act". Traffic is under a "title act". The practice act licenses sort of carry a little more panache and technically only engineers in these disciplines can "practice" engineering -* except* the big mucky muck licenses are under the authority act - Structural and Geotechnical - these are like a step above.
> http://www.pels.ca.gov/applicants/appinstpe.shtml
> 
> It depends on what you want the license for. Where I work, all you need is some sort of PE license to hit the top level pay and advance. So if people have trouble with the civil they often try out the traffic license.


Gotcha. Leave it to California to make a complicated process even more complex. If they have a separate licensing category for traffic I would imagine it would be pretty tough for someone who does only "traffic engineering" to qualify for the civil exam.

How would California handle it if the OP registered for a Civil exam in a different state and then transferred it back to California? Would they issue someone in that situation a traffic license or a civil license?

Come to think of it, do they have a separate exam for a Traffic Engineer in California? Different from the Civil (transportation) exam NCEES would administer to the rest of the country?


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## benbo (Jun 18, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> benbo said:
> 
> 
> > The Civil License and the Traffic License are in separate categories. THe Civil, mechanical and electric licenses are codified under the "practice act". Traffic is under a "title act". The practice act licenses sort of carry a little more panache and technically only engineers in these disciplines can "practice" engineering -* except* the big mucky muck licenses are under the authority act - Structural and Geotechnical - these are like a step above.
> ...


I'm not an expert on it. THey do have a separate exam. And I have known people who basically did only traffic work and got to take the civil exam. I guess it depends on how you write up your qualifications.

In fact, I know people who have both licenses. Since you only need 2 years non-overlapping experience in Ca if you can write it up in the right way you can take both pretty quickly.


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## martin.li (Jun 19, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> martin.li said:
> 
> 
> > PsychoNumber1 said:
> ...


The rules set by the board are not the clearest.

Here is a set of the rules

6730.2. Requirement for responsible charge

It is the intent of the Legislature that the registration requirements that are imposed upon private sector professional engineers and engineering partnerships, firms, or corporations shall be 2011 8 Professional Engineers Act

imposed upon the state and any city, county, or city and county that shall adhere to those requirements. Therefore, for the purposes of Section 6730 and this chapter, at least one registered engineer shall be designated the person in responsible charge of professional engineering work for each branch of professional engineering practiced in any department or agency of the state, city, county, or city and county. Any department or agency of the state or any city, county, or city and county which has an unregistered person in responsible charge of engineering work on January 1, 1985, shall be exempt from this requirement until that time as the person currently in responsible charge is replaced.

6731. Civil engineering defined

Civil engineering embraces the following studies or activities in connection with fixed works for irrigation, drainage, waterpower, water supply, flood control, inland waterways, harbors, municipal improvements, railroads, highways, tunnels, airports and airways, purification of water, sewerage, refuse disposal, foundations, grading, framed and homogeneous structures, buildings, or bridges:

(a) The economics of, the use and design of, materials of construction and the determination of their physical qualities.

(B) The supervision of the construction of engineering structures.

© The investigation of the laws, phenomena and forces of nature.

(d) Appraisals or valuations.

(e) The preparation or submission of designs, plans and specifications and engineering reports.

(f) Coordination of the work of professional, technical, or special consultants.

(g) Creation, preparation, or modification of electronic or computerized data in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a) through (f).

Civil engineering also includes city and regional planning insofar as any of the above features are concerned therein.

Civil engineers registered prior to January 1, 1982, shall be authorized to practice all land surveying as defined in Chapter 15 (commencing with Section 8700) of Division 3.

[NOTE: The last registration number issued to a civil engineer registered before January 1, 1982 was 33,965.]

6731.1. Civil engineering; additional authority

Civil engineering also includes the practice or offer to practice, either in a public or private capacity, all of the following:

(a) Locates, relocates, establishes, reestablishes, or retraces the alignment or elevation for any of the fixed works embraced within the practice of civil engineering, as described in Section 6731.

(B) Determines the configuration or contour of the earth’s surface or the position of fixed objects above, on, or below the surface of earth by applying the principles of trigonometry or photogrammetry.

© Creates, prepares, or modifies electronic or computerized data in the performance of the activities described in subdivisions (a) and (B).

(d) Renders a statement regarding the accuracy of maps or measured survey data pursuant to subdivisions (a), (B), and ©.

2011 Professional Engineers Act 9

6731.2. Authority to offer to practice or procure land surveying

Any registered civil engineer may offer to practice, procure, and offer to procure, land surveying work incidental to his or her civil engineering practice, even though he or she is not authorized to perform that work, provided all the land surveying work is performed by, or under the direction of, a licensed land surveyor or registered civil engineer authorized to practice land surveying. Further, any registered civil engineer may manage or conduct as manager, proprietor, or agent, a civil engineering practice which offers to practice, procure, and offers to procure, such incidental land surveying work.

6731.3 Construction project management services

A registered civil engineer may also practice or offer to practice, either in a public or private capacity, construction project management services, including, but not limited to, construction project design review and evaluation, construction mobilization and supervision, bid evaluation, project scheduling, cost-benefit analysis, claims review and negotiation, and general management and administration of a construction project.

6731.4 Responsibility for construction management services

If a registered civil engineer provides construction management services pursuant to Section 6731.3, Section 6703.1 shall not limit the responsibility of the engineer for the services actually provided.

circuits is not exclusive to the practice of electrical engineering, as defined in subdivision (a).


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## martin.li (Jun 19, 2011)

benbo said:


> roadwreck said:
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> 
> > benbo said:
> ...



These people you know took the test in the CIVIL PE in CA? I know I qualify for the TE with no problems. I just need help in wording the application on the CIVIL PE (I know many people have taken it and have gotten approved)


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## martin.li (Jun 19, 2011)

roadwreck said:


> benbo said:
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> > roadwreck said:
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Basically, if you have the TE you still cannot stamp anything. It's ironic that you need a PE Civil license to stamp traffic plans and yet they don't qualify traffic (in CA) as experience.


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## benbo (Jun 19, 2011)

> These people you know took the test in the CIVIL PE in CA? I know I qualify for the TE with no problems. I just need help in wording the application on the CIVIL PE (I know many people have taken it and have gotten approved)


Yep. Other than this board, I don't know anybody who took the PE exam anywhere but California, and I work at a place where we have people will ewvery conceivable license.

I guess the first thing would be to ask your supervisor what he awrote and NOT write anything similar.

Although my expereince was electrical, and more along the lines of evaluation of design and test rahter than actual dsesign, I think CA likes design. So I would look at the NCEES specifications for the Civil Transportation license, and write up anything that could conceivably be considered design and phrase it in that manner. Or analysis with numbers and calculations involved.


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## martin.li (Jun 19, 2011)

benbo said:


> > These people you know took the test in the CIVIL PE in CA? I know I qualify for the TE with no problems. I just need help in wording the application on the CIVIL PE (I know many people have taken it and have gotten approved)
> 
> 
> Yep. Other than this board, I don't know anybody who took the PE exam anywhere but California, and I work at a place where we have people will ewvery conceivable license.
> ...



I posted the specs above. Everything my manager wrote has to do with design (traffic/tranportation/ITS). The specs above make it extremely difficult. Analyses and calculations typically relate to planning and they don't like that.


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## Boomer01 PE (Jun 20, 2011)

martin.li said:


> Boomer01 said:
> 
> 
> > I just passed the PE and all of my experience is with a traffic engineering consulting firm. I had no problems whatsoever. If he is more of a planner than an engineer then maybe that's why.
> ...


We are strictly a Traffic Firm and I had no problems. I listed projects involving traffic impact analyses, traffic signal plans, traffic classification and volume counts, roadway design plans, traffic control plans, and sign inventory.


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## martin.li (Jun 20, 2011)

Road Guy said:


> there is a lot in the write up, make it very focused on the traffic "ENGINEERING" part and decision making.
> Use some of the "buzz words" from the NCEES exam breakdown in your descrption (Utilize Highway Capacity Manual to decide capacity of interstate system, etc, etc, etc, )



What you mention above is considered planning which in CA would not count as experience according to the board.


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## martin.li (Jun 20, 2011)

Boomer01 said:


> martin.li said:
> 
> 
> > Boomer01 said:
> ...



All that you listed above is disqualified here (maybe because CA has a separate TE exam).


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## Boomer01 PE (Jun 21, 2011)

Maybe that is the case.


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## martin.li (Jun 23, 2011)

So there is no one else having this problem?


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## sikh (Sep 21, 2011)

martin.li said:


> So there is no one else having this problem?


Hello Martin,

I am in a similar situation as yours. I am working on the paperwork for California PE Civil exam in Spring 2012. I have worked for a transportation firm involving traffic engineering/planning that includes signal design,signing/striping, lighting, traffic control plans, ITS design, traffic impact studies, corridor studies, safety studies etc etc.....However the CA board does not recognize this as civil engineering experience.

what did you finally do with your application in regards to the experience part? I will greatly appreciate your response.


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## markS (Oct 18, 2011)

Like most on this thread, I believe the right choice of words and description is the key. To be fair, there are some divisions of traffic that have very tenuous connection to civil engineering. For example, a person who works on developing simulation software. He does have to use some of the traffic principles but is he really traffic engineer or a civil engineer?


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