# Detroit's worse than I thought



## Capt Worley PE (May 24, 2012)

Will the last person out of Detroit please turn out the lights? oh, wait...the city's got it.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-05-24/half-of-detroit-s-streetlights-may-go-out-as-city-shrinks.html


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## Krakosky (May 24, 2012)

Lol now you know why I want to escape.


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## mudpuppy (May 24, 2012)

Downtown has actually improved since I was a kid, with the casinos, Ford Field and Comerica Park.

The rest of the city, not so much.

I had a friend that bought a house in one of the nicer neighborhoods of the city. Had a car set on fire in his front yard, fence ripped out of his back yard to steal his lawnmower, and house broken into and everything he owned was stolen.


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## Krakosky (May 24, 2012)

^ Daaaaamn. That sucks.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 24, 2012)

I hear the taxes were pretty high, too. I looked up one of those houses for sale for 20K and the taxes were listed at 6K/year. Don't know how accurate that was, though.


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## snickerd3 (May 24, 2012)

what are these things you call street lights?

If we want outdoor nighttime illumination we have to put up our own light. I think the downtown strip is the only place lit up at night.


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## mudpuppy (May 24, 2012)

The millage rate is about 67, which is high, but not $6k on a $20k house. More like $670 (maybe they slipped a significant figure).


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## EM_PS (May 24, 2012)

Yeah I heard Haiti was going to host a benefit concert for Detroit....


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## Capt Worley PE (May 25, 2012)

mudpuppy said:


> The millage rate is about 67, which is high, but not $6k on a $20k house. More like $670 (maybe they slipped a significant figure).


What was throwing me is that apparently some really nice old homes are in bad hoods and selling for cheap. Couple that with the fact that I KNOW there tax info is wonked on local properties I actually know about, and you have confusion on the veracity of the info.


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## mudpuppy (May 25, 2012)

Yes there are lots of absolutely beautiful houses in Detroit. Back in the 20s to 40s it was a really nice place. It's just not safe to live in most of them now.


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## Krakosky (May 25, 2012)

Kwame followed me to TX when he left Detroit. He lived about 30 minutes away.


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## mudpuppy (May 25, 2012)

LOL, did he send you texts too?


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## Krakosky (May 25, 2012)

Nope. Too bad. Maybe I could've gotten an Escalade out of it.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 25, 2012)

mudpuppy said:


> Yes there are lots of absolutely beautiful houses in Detroit. Back in the 20s to 40s it was a really nice place. It's just not safe to live in most of them now.


Shame, isn't it?


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## mudpuppy (May 25, 2012)

It is. . . don't get me started. . . All the the infrastructure, the nice houses. . . Detroit has everything you need for a great city. But people don't want to live in the city, they want new houses and to live in suburbia so they keep moving farther out and developing the greenfields. When I was growing up, Hall Road, about 20 miles north of downtown Detroit, was a 2-lane road through open farm fields. Fifteen years later it was an 8-lane divided highway surrounded on both sides by miles of strip malls and giant tract houses. It's waste on an absolutely massive scale, all so people can live somehwere "nice." And 40 years from now it'll be an abandonded wasteland like Detroit as people move on to next new deveopment. It's sad.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 25, 2012)

mudpuppy said:


> It is. . . don't get me started. . . All the the infrastructure, the nice houses. . . Detroit has everything you need for a great city. But people don't want to live in the city, they want new houses and to live in suburbia so they keep moving farther out and developing the greenfields. When I was growing up, Hall Road, about 20 miles north of downtown Detroit, was a 2-lane road through open farm fields. Fifteen years later it was an 8-lane divided highway surrounded on both sides by miles of strip malls and giant tract houses. It's waste on an absolutely massive scale, all so people can live somehwere "nice." And 40 years from now it'll be an abandonded wasteland like Detroit as people move on to next new deveopment. It's sad.


The important questions here are:

1) Why did people wish to leave the city?

2) What did the city do to address question 1?

People vote with their wallets. In my experience, cities have taken the short sighted view of pointing out their attributes when responding to citizens' concerns, rather than addressing the concerns.

Now some of them the cities can't do much about, like people wanting more personal space, but taking this as an example, I've seen cities respond to this with, "But, we have parks." Parks aren't personal space.


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## Krakosky (May 25, 2012)

Hall Road makes me want to barf. Everyday it's stop and go traffic nearly all day long. Saw a pretty bad accident a couple days ago bc someone obviously wasn't paying attention and rear ended the car in front of them hard. Thinking about moving to an apt in Royal Oak. Should be a nice change of scenery.


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## Dexman PE PMP (May 25, 2012)

Denver has been fairly pro-active when it comes to "in-filling" some of the run-down areas of the inner city. The city planning department has started to make it easier for developers to come in and redevelop these areas to attract residents.

One of the bigger redevelopment projects in the area revolves around the new Fitsimmons campus. Within the last few years, the area has really started to pickup after two new regional hospitals were built (University of Colorado Hospital &amp; Children's Hospital), and it's easy to see that money is getting pumped back into the neighborhood again.


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## EM_PS (May 25, 2012)

Alot of cultural &amp; racial action at play in the demise of Detroit, and other MI cities too. The 1968 MLK assassination really affected alot of industrial 'burgs up this way w/ hastening 'white flight' from the downtown areas. Big cities like Chicago, NY, etc were better able to absorb that strife. But Detroit's fall started more around the 50's anyways.


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## Kephart P.E. (May 25, 2012)

mudpuppy said:


> It is. . . don't get me started. . . All the the infrastructure, the nice houses. . . Detroit has everything you need for a great city. But people don't want to live in the city, they want new houses and to live in suburbia so they keep moving farther out and developing the greenfields. When I was growing up, Hall Road, about 20 miles north of downtown Detroit, was a 2-lane road through open farm fields. Fifteen years later it was an 8-lane divided highway surrounded on both sides by miles of strip malls and giant tract houses. It's waste on an absolutely massive scale, all so people can live somehwere "nice." And 40 years from now it'll be an abandonded wasteland like Detroit as people move on to next new deveopment. It's sad.


A lot of the Political Right likes to take shots at my home city of Portland OR, but the land use laws and urban planning the city has done over the last 30 years has insured Portland didn't become a mini-Detroit.

We have our issues, but even in a down economy, rainy weather, and a high cost of living people are still moving here. I live in a older established neighborhood. My house was built in 1946 and is probably about the median for the city. I don't always appreciate some of our laws and city regulations, but it is pretty obvious this is the way to do it.

Wait 20 years and a lot of cities in the South/Texas are going to be in the same boat as they are making the same mistakes that Detroit did, ie allowing the "free market" to determine how and where developments are built and just building more freeways to connect them.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 25, 2012)

Portland's land use restrictions and mass transit plans are interesting. Not my cup of tea, but it is interesting to see how it has worked and what the consequences have been over the years.

I'm not sure the fifty years within the city limits thing is going to work, but who knows.


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## mudpuppy (Aug 28, 2012)

Thought the Capt might find this interesting:  http://www.marketwatch.com/story/out-of-money-detroit-cuts-back-fights-back-2012-08-28



> The most alarming effect of the population exodus is the huge inventory of abandoned and derelict buildings stretched out over a city that geographically is larger than Manhattan, Boston and San Francisco combined. Entire neighborhoods are hollowed out. Detroit has from 40,000 to 70,000 abandoned buildings, many of which have become havens for drugs and other criminal activity. Bing promises to tear down 10,000 buildings by the end of next year.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 28, 2012)

Holy carp! $10 billion _in debt_? SC's whole budget is only 7$ billion!


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## mudpuppy (Aug 28, 2012)

Some interesting comparisons to draw. . . the population of South Carolina is about the same as Metro Detroit.

Looks like the Columbia, SC city budget is $250 million. . .scale that up to a population of 1 million and it would be about $2 billion, so you can see why when the city of Detroit shrank 40% the deficit and debt climbed.

Also pretty easy to see why property taxes are so high.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 28, 2012)

^^FWIW, Columbia is on the same track (which is why I don't live there), and is frequently compared to Detroit in the media outlets comment sections.


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## csb (Aug 28, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Holy carp! $10 billion _in debt_? SC's whole budget is only 7$ billion!


I think my state has a $7B surplus...


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## EM_PS (Aug 28, 2012)

Thank fracking for that


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 29, 2012)

csb said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > Holy carp! $10 billion _in debt_? SC's whole budget is only 7$ billion!
> ...


Wyoming, where men are men and sheep are scared.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 29, 2012)

Wyoming would be nice if it wasn't so danged cold.


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## Ble_PE (Aug 29, 2012)

Plenty of room to go off-grid and not be bothered by anyone...


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 29, 2012)

Cabin in the woods....


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## Dexman PE PMP (Aug 29, 2012)

csb said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > Holy carp! $10 billion _in debt_? SC's whole budget is only 7$ billion!
> ...


Mostly because there aren't enough people there to spend it...


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## csb (Aug 30, 2012)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Cabin in the woods....


That's our neighbors to the north...wait, you already know that.


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## Capt Worley PE (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm guessing it is contract negotiation time???



> *DETROIT (WWJ) – *The men and women of the Detroit Police Department believe the city is too dangerous to enter, and they want citizens to know it.
> 
> Detroit Police Officer Association (DPOA) Attorney Donato Iorio said officers are holding the “Enter At Your Own Risk” rally at 3:30 p.m. Saturday in front of Comerica Park to remind the public that the officers are overworked, understaffed, and at times, fearful for their lives.
> 
> “Detroit is America’s most violent city, its homicide rate is the highest in the country and yet the Detroit Police Department is grossly understaffed,” Iorio told WWJ’s Kathryn Larson. “The DPOA believes that there is a war in Detroit, but there should be a war on crime, not a war on its officers.”


http://detroit.cbslo...e-for-visitors/


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## MA_PE (Oct 8, 2012)

> “These are the men and women who we look to protect us… and police officers can’t protect you if they’re not there. Officers are leaving simply because they *can’t afford* to stay in Detroit and work 12 hour shifts *for what they are getting paid*… These police officers are beyond demoralized, these officers are leaving hand over fist because *they can no longer afford to stay* on the department and protect the public,” he said.


I'd say so.


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## kevo_55 (Oct 9, 2012)

Time to get Robocop on the street!!


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## knight1fox3 (Oct 9, 2012)

kevo_55 said:


> Time to get Robocop on the street!!


LMAO! Best idea ever kevo!

_"Come with me, or there will be........TROUBLE!"_


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 7, 2012)

Looks like Detroit is gearing up to go bankrupt.



> Even as the state Treasury prepares to begin another financial review of Detroit's books, a plan is being solidified in the governor's office that would guide Michigan's largest city through what is being called a managed bankruptcy.
> 
> The working concept, still evolving, assumes that the state's financial review would find severe financial distress in Detroit, that Mayor Dave Bing and City Council would be unable to push through overdue restructuring, and that the process would culminate in appointment of an emergency financial manager under Public Act 72.



From The Detroit News: http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121207/OPINION03/212070365#ixzz2ENuXExmK


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## mudpuppy (Dec 7, 2012)

The Detroit city government has been notoriously corrupt for decades, and while Mayor Bing has been trying to change things he can only do so much with the council. Perhaps going through bankruptcy can change things, but we'll see.


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## ALBin517 (Dec 11, 2012)

Detroit has been - as they say in public management - "kicking the can." The council has avoided making tough decisions and cuts, instead telling residents what they want to hear. Then new council comes in and does the same thing until their term is up.

Well, the can has been kicked as far as it can go.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Dec 11, 2012)




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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 20, 2013)

> DETROIT (AP) — The fiscal crisis plaguing Detroit is now in the hands of Michigan's governor after a state-appointed review team determined the city was in a financial emergency with "no satisfactory plan" to resolve it.
> 
> Republican Gov. Rick Snyder has 30 days to decide if Detroit needsan emergency manager to take charge of its finances and spending, and come up with a new plan to get the city out of its financial mess.
> 
> ...




http://news.yahoo.com/detroits-financial-crisis-now-governors-hands-080206730.html;_ylt=A2KJ2PZ84iRRRz8AI5fQtDMD


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## ALBin517 (Feb 22, 2013)

Understatement of the year: "the city's bureaucratic structure makes it difficult to solve the financial problems."

And who is still loaning Detroit money? As a Michigan resident, God bless you. But hopefully you don't need it back soon... or ever.


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 18, 2013)

> Former Detroit Mayor Kwame Kilpatrick was found guilty of multiple counts of racketeering and extortion, a jury decided Monday. Kilpatrick was convicted of 24 charges, including racketeering, extortion, attempted extortion, bribery, mail fraud, wire fraud and filing false tax returns. Both Kilpatrick and contractor Bobby Ferguson were found guilty on most counts. Kilpatrick's 71-year-old father, Bernard Kilpatrick, was only found guilty of one tax count.




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/11/kwame-kilpatrick-guilty-detroit-trial_n_2784873.html


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## snickerd3 (Mar 18, 2013)

^at least Illinois isn't the only state with politicians in jail...


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## ALBin517 (Mar 19, 2013)

snickerd3 said:


> ^at least Illinois isn't the only state with politicians in jail...


Unfortunately, that is not new for Detroit. City Council President Monica Conyers just got done doing 27 months for selling her vote.

Probably most embarrassing was that she sold her deciding vote to approve a billion-dollar contract and only got $3000 in return.

Her chief of staff (Sam Riddle) served time too.

By the way, she is also married to congressman John Conyers (U.S. House, Michigan 14th District).


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## mudpuppy (Mar 19, 2013)

The difference is they are starting to get caught now. This crap has been going on for decades, but they (Coleman Young) managed to get away with it because the public loved them for some reason.

Kwame is definitely not lovable, lol!

I heard this morning Kwame is trying to get let out on bond to see his family in Texas. . . .gee, he wasn't thinking about his family when he was having the affair with the woman that eventually got him caught.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 14, 2013)

http://news.yahoo.com/detroit-broke-could-bankruptcy-lie-ahead-185859786.html

Buried waaaay down in the article, you find:



> "My gut feeling is that *taxes are going to have to be raised* at some time,"* possibly a temporary surcharge on businesses* to keep the city afloat, McTevia added.


Oh, I see that working really well attracting bidness to Detroit.


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## mudpuppy (May 14, 2013)

There will be no surcharge on businesses, not as long as Gov. Snyder is around. He is an un-ashamedly pro-business politician.

He has no qualms about raising taxes though. Already created new taxes on pensions in order to finance his business tax reduction, and he also wants to raise the gas tax. He is definitely not a tea party republican, he is a business party republican.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 15, 2013)

mudpuppy said:


> He is definitely not a tea party republican, he is a business party republican.




I wish the ®s could find a lot more of them and not the "GAYS, FORNICATORS, AND LIBRULS ARE EEEEEVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIL!!!!!" types.


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## ALBin517 (May 15, 2013)

That emergency financial manager in Detroit is going to earn his money. Detroiters seem to think their financial condition is no need for concern. So when the EFM starts trimming the fat, folks will think he is making unnecessary cuts.

And regarding the Detroit Police, the biggest head-scratcher is that Detroit spends more per capita on police protection than nearly every other major city in the country. The cash is obviously not getting to the officers though.


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## Master slacker (May 15, 2013)

And how unionized is Detroit?


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## nafta (Jun 8, 2013)

Here's my thoughts; having only driven through Detroit a long time ago. I've seen many other cities and towns, some successful, some not.

Urban planning is good, especially planning that forces people to live in the city by making suburban development difficult, as long as you do it smart. Otherwise, sprawl inevitably happens because it's the path of least resistance to actually fixing urban neighborhoods. Ultimately, sprawl is not sustainable because we have to drive farther and farther, waste more gas, be more isolated, etc...

Detroit needs to be downsized and a lot of it needs demolition. Detroit is one of the biggest cities in the US by corporate area, and has the most abandoned buildings for a city its size. But we can't force Bubba X from his house because he's a citizen, and he has rights, even though it makes no sense for him to live there at great taxpayer expense.

The problem is our antiquated and weak eminent domain laws, plus local governments that spread power to too many people. NYC has fixed a lot of that, Mayor Bloomberg took power out of the myriad of school boards, and other boards. We're in 2013 big cities, not little towns in New England, most people haven't a clue who the heck is on this board or that; they might know their mayor, and they know the President. So give that mayor power, because he's the only one that Joe Schmo holds accountable.

In a place like Singapore, I doubt Detroit would be allowed to happen. The Prime Minister there would have demolished and downsized the city already...but here, it's all talk, little action from the government. Something like Detroit, a national embarassment, ought to be handled at Federal level and fixed. The fixes are staring us in the face, but nobody seems to be able to get it done.

You need to be business friendly and tough on crime. The two go hand in hand...but again, we have political correctness, racial tensions, and all this other stuff that keeps us from doing what we should.

Finally, we have a failure of keeping it real. We live in a Democracy, which in Detroit's case, means the blackest, poorest, and least educated population in the USA is voting for those city council members and mayor. The people might pick a decent leader here and there, but can we really expect anything to change given who the voting base is?


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## ALBin517 (Jun 10, 2013)

nafta said:


> In a place like Singapore, I doubt Detroit would be allowed to happen. The Prime Minister there would have demolished and downsized the city already...but here, it's all talk, little action from the government. Something like Detroit, a national embarassment, ought to be handled at Federal level and fixed. The fixes are staring us in the face, but nobody seems to be able to get it done.




When the new mayor (Bing) was elected, he started knocking old houses down at an awesome rate. Then folks started asking about asbestos and such. Demolition has been slow since then.


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## snickerd3 (Jun 10, 2013)

^that darn pesky mineral...causes so much trouble.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 10, 2013)

snickerd3 said:


> ^that darn pesky mineral...causes so much trouble.




But it is so darn useful!


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jun 10, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> snickerd3 said:
> 
> 
> > ^that darn pesky mineral...causes so much trouble.
> ...


And there's no problem as long as you don't sniff it.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 10, 2013)

Dexman PE said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > snickerd3 said:
> ...




Shingles made of that stuff last a looooooong time, too. And do a good job of not letting the heat in.

They were popular in the south (along with metal roofs).


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## Master slacker (Jun 10, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Dexman PE said:
> 
> 
> > Capt Worley PE said:
> ...




My house has 80+ year old asbestos shingle siding. Not a bad product. Our house doesn't have insulation in the walls and the summer heat influx isn't all that bad.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 11, 2013)

Master slacker said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > Dexman PE said:
> ...




Yep, forgot about the siding. that was big down here, too.

Asbestos was a great product that was completely overreacted to in the media.


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## Master slacker (Jun 11, 2013)

The non-friable stuff (siding, shingles, etc...) is alright as long as you don't put it through a blender and snort it.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jun 11, 2013)

^Yeah, but it is like aliens landed and the decontamination team came out when that stuff is being removed. I understand its a problem for folks in daily contact with the dust, but for the vast majority of the populace, that's a non-issue.


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## mudpuppy (Jul 18, 2013)

So, Detroit filed for bankruptcy today, to reorganize its $18.5 billion in debt. This has been 30 years coming, should be interesting. Largest municipal bankruptcy ever.


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## knight1fox3 (Jul 18, 2013)

Just saw that on MSN: http://www.nbcnews.com/business/reports-detroit-files-bankruptcy-6C10678946


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## blybrook PE (Jul 18, 2013)

Yet another reason I'm glad I don't live in MI anymore...


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## ALBin517 (Jul 19, 2013)

Yeah this bankruptcy looks like rock bottom for Detroit... bout time.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 19, 2013)

I heard a quote on the radio from a resident of Detroit that [paraphrasing] "it sucks that the city had to declare bankruptcy, plus they can't even get reliable bus routes to run." Talk about missing the point.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 22, 2013)

I think the retirees are going to have to realize that x% of current pension is better than 0%.


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## Master slacker (Jul 22, 2013)

But their lawyers who are working on their own in the retirees' best interest, will do everything they can to convince them otherwise.


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## EM_PS (Jul 22, 2013)

Ack, when it comes to Detroit, stupid continues to beget stupidity (ie why things never get fixed):

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/index.ssf/2013/07/judge_calls_detroit_bankruptcy.html

Interesting to see how / why a state judge thinks she has the power to in any way impact a federal proceeding.


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## mudpuppy (Jul 23, 2013)

What's even worse than Detroit?

Flint. Most violent city in the U.S. Seven homicides last week. http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2013/07/congressman_dan_kildee_urges_a.html

For comparison, Atlanta was #8 for violent crime in 2012, with a violent crime rate 60% of Flint's.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 23, 2013)




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## blybrook PE (Jul 23, 2013)

Ah, good ol' Dort Highway. Good scrap yards over there.

Sure didn't want to be in that area after dark though.

I know several guys who went to Kettering Univ. and always stated that they would take the tunnels across campus rather than walk in the open.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I'm so glad I didn't go to kettering


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 23, 2013)

^Me too. It was GMI back then.


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## knight1fox3 (Jul 23, 2013)

I sure don't miss my days doing start-ups at the Detroit Chrysler axle plant. We were told 3 things when arriving. Don't p#ss anyone off, don't leave the plant alone after 10pm, and make sure to stay at least 20 mi outside of town. When I first heard this, I had sort of a stunned look wondering if I would get some sort of extra hazard pay or something. LOL


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## mudpuppy (Jul 23, 2013)

snickerd3 said:


> I'm so glad I didn't go to kettering




They keep the campus itself pretty safe, but yeah you wouldn't want to hang out in "town." Ten miles from Flint is pretty nice though.



knight1fox3 said:


> I sure don't miss my days doing start-ups at the Detroit Chrysler axle plant. We were told 3 things when arriving. Don't p#ss anyone off, don't leave the plant alone after 10pm, and make sure to stay at least 20 mi outside of town. When I first heard this, I had sort of a stunned look wondering if I would get some sort of extra hazard pay or something. LOL




My brother worked down that way for a while. His work van had a bullet hole in it. The story is his coworker was driving in Detroit when a pedestrian walked right out in front of him. The driver honked and flipped off the guy and got shot at in return.


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## Master slacker (Jul 31, 2013)




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## mudpuppy (Jul 31, 2013)

^Oh man, that's hilarious in so many ways!


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## csb (Jul 31, 2013)

Our homicide rate is 1.5 per year...with many years seeing 0. Usually the people killed know the person killing them. Hmm...it's almost like murder needs a date rape equivalent...

And everything I needed to know about Flint I learned from Michael Moore when I was forced to watch the film in 10th grade.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 31, 2013)

^I loved Roger and Me. Only good film Moore ever made.


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## EM_PS (Jul 31, 2013)

csb said:


> Our homicide rate is 1.5 per year...with many years seeing 0.




Wait! That doesn't seem to jive with Longmire ...


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## knight1fox3 (Oct 10, 2013)

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/10/10/ex-detroit-mayor-sentenced-to-28-years-in-prison-for-corruption/


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## Supe (Oct 10, 2013)

Gee, what a shame.


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## mudpuppy (Nov 13, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


>






Flint recently elected to their city council two felons, including one who was in prison for 19 years for murder, and two people with bankruptcies. I'm sure they'll run the city well.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2013/11/flint_voters_elect_two_convict.html


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 13, 2013)

For some reason, I didn't think felons could hold elected office.


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## mudpuppy (Nov 13, 2013)

Apparently they can on the Flint City Council, lol. Maybe not in Congress though (surprisingly, since they're all crooks).


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 13, 2013)

^You crystaliized my thoughts perfectly on congress.


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## ALBin517 (Nov 13, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> For some reason, I didn't think felons could hold elected office.




Michigan recently passed the Kwame law, that says folks who commit felonious acts while in office can't run again. But these folks became felons before running for office, so they're cool.


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## ALBin517 (Nov 13, 2013)

Also in the news today is a story about Detroit's botched new jail project.

Detroit and Wayne County started construction but it's already so far over budget that they can't afford to finish it.

They started looking at different options.

State of Michigan offered to GIVE them a recently-abandoned state prison, located in the city.

Detroit and Wayne County say no, the state will have to do better than free.

I don't know what leverage the city and county think they have in the situation.


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## Capt Worley PE (Nov 13, 2013)

ALBin517 said:


> Detroit and Wayne County started construction but it's already so far over budget that they can't afford to finish it.




I worked in a prison where they built a new cell block, but couldn't afford to staff it. It was basically a pigeon roost the whole time I worked there.


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 4, 2013)

http://money.cnn.com/2013/12/03/news/economy/detroit-bankruptcy-ruling/index.html?iid=Lead



> A federal judge has given a green light for Detroit to proceed with its bankruptcy, the largest municipal bankruptcy in history.
> The ruling opens the door for the city to cut billions of dollars in payments that are owed to city employees, retirees, investors and other creditors.
> 
> 
> ...



Nice pic:


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## ALBin517 (Dec 5, 2013)

Retirees were out picketing, when Detroit first filed for bankruptcy. The picketer photographed on the front page of the Freep Press was a city retiree, trying to defend his full pension. Dude was 45 years old.

So as a municipal employee, I feel bad for Detroit retirees. But the city has been spending too much for decades. Seems like those employees would have looked at the city's finances and thought maybe their pensions were not 100% secure.


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## ALBin517 (Dec 5, 2013)

This bankruptcy situation is being watched closely by lots of cash-strapped cities. Many municipal leaders have looked short-term and avoided employee raises while agreeing to absurd pensions. 

Those same cities - and their new managers - are now sitting back and watching Detroit, seeing if they can get out of their pension burden by simply declaring bankruptcy.


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 5, 2013)

ALBin517 said:


> This bankruptcy situation is being watched closely by lots of cash-strapped cities. Many municipal leaders have looked short-term and avoided employee raises while agreeing to absurd pensions.




I don't think it'll be too long before state start declaring bankruptcy to rid themselves of pensions.


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## EM_PS (Dec 5, 2013)

Long (but interesting IMO) read on D's spiral into bankruptcy.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130915/NEWS01/130801004/Detroit-Bankruptcy-history-1950-debt-pension-revenue


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## knight1fox3 (Dec 5, 2013)

Capt Worley PE said:


> ALBin517 said:
> 
> 
> > This bankruptcy situation is being watched closely by lots of cash-strapped cities. Many municipal leaders have looked short-term and avoided employee raises while agreeing to absurd pensions.
> ...


That's an interesting thought...


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Dec 5, 2013)

I'm not too worried about my state going bankrupt anytime soon. Absolute zero, possibly.


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## EM_PS (Dec 5, 2013)

State (MI) did away w/ pensions in the mid-90's, its all 401 'junk' now. Detroit could have done same, but opted not to.


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## CbusPaul (Dec 6, 2013)

It's interesting that the signs say "The Banks Owe Us" and "Make the Banks Pay". That boogeyman must have played better than saying, "Taxpayers owe us." I'm at a loss for exactly what the banks could possibly owe them.


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## ALBin517 (Dec 6, 2013)

EM_PS said:


> State (MI) did away w/ pensions in the mid-90's, its all 401 'junk' now. Detroit could have done same, but opted not to.




That is a lot of it - there were lots of good / unpopular moves that the Detroit city council could have made over the years. But they didn't have the plums to make them. So here we are...


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 6, 2013)

CbusPaul said:


> It's interesting that the signs say "The Banks Owe Us" and "Make the Banks Pay". That boogeyman must have played better than saying, "Taxpayers owe us." I'm at a loss for exactly what the banks could possibly owe them.




I think the OWS crowd is heavily involved in the Detroit protests. As par the course for that group, they have no idea what's going on. All they can process is 'banks are eevil' apparently.


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## Capt Worley PE (Dec 6, 2013)

knight1fox3 said:


> Capt Worley PE said:
> 
> 
> > ALBin517 said:
> ...




From a bidness standpoint, that's really the only way out. Look at what the liabilities will be fifteen years down the road. You just can't pay that many people not to work. Not on the revenues collected through taxes.

The cold, hard truth is we live waaay to long for traditional retirement/pensions as we know them.


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