# Are solutions allowed in test room?



## AHairyBeast (Mar 7, 2015)

Hello,

Can anyone tell me if problem/solution books are allowed in the test? I am wondering about things like the six minute solution books and the Practice Problems accompaniment to the MERM. I am trying to decide if I should spend more time writing down the specifics of each problem, or take a little less time so I can do more problems.

Taking the test next month and freaking out slightly.


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## The Wizard (Mar 8, 2015)

Yes, those are allowed in the exam room. Anything is allowed as long as it's a book, in a 3 ring binder etc. No loose papers is basically the only rule.


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## ptatohed (Mar 8, 2015)

I think Illinois does not allow solutions in the exam room. Not sure of any other states.


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## AHairyBeast (Mar 8, 2015)

Thank you both!!


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 8, 2015)

As ptatohed stated, this is one of those pieces of information you want to verify with your state and NCEES. I can tell you for NY specifically solutions are allowed as long as they are in bound form.


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## ptatohed (Mar 9, 2015)

Why is this in the 'Prep Class / Study Material Review' sub-forum anyway?


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 9, 2015)

No idea, I'm sure one of the mods will move it to the appropriate forums.


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 9, 2015)

ptatohed is really the authority around here on using the appropriate forums (and rightly so). Should just give him the ability to move threads as he sees fit. LOL


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## ptatohed (Mar 9, 2015)

knight1fox3 said:


> ptatohed is really the authority around here on using the appropriate forums (and rightly so). Should just give him the ability to move threads as he sees fit. LOL




I accept!


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 9, 2015)

Move all the threads! (Too lazy to apply it to the Meme)


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## maryannette (Mar 9, 2015)

AHairyBeast said:


> ....
> 
> Taking the test next month and freaking out slightly.


Don't freak out. It doesn't help. Good luck.


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## IlliniWood (Mar 25, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> I think Illinois does not allow solutions in the exam room. Not sure of any other states




The proctors at my test location in IL didn't even check materials. Basically had to sign off that you weren't using anything that you weren't supposed to. Basically IL follows the NCEES instructions that say anything is good as long as it's bound. I used the MERM practice problems w/ solutions as a reference. It's really no different than any other text book with example problems and solutions.


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## The Wizard (Mar 25, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> Why is this in the 'Prep Class / Study Material Review' sub-forum anyway?


You're a mod now. Get to work and move this thread already! :whipping: Slacker. haha


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## ptatohed (Mar 27, 2015)

Thread moved to the proper forum!


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## iwire (Mar 27, 2015)

I don't know why but I didn't even crack open mine during the test. I found its useless. Seems like those are more like Hail Mary Situation when you are hoping similar type of question. But that's just me


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## envirotex (Mar 27, 2015)

^Not so for me. The structure of some of the exam questions was very similar to the structure of the practice test questions. I was able to use the method and the equations that I needed because they were already organized and written down in one place.

I did photocopy my solutions, though because they were written in pencil...


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## adamn185 PE (Mar 29, 2015)

envirotex said:


> ^Not so for me. The structure of some of the exam questions was very similar to the structure of the practice test questions. I was able to use the method and the equations that I needed because they were already organized and written down in one place.
> 
> I did photocopy my solutions, though because they were written in pencil...


Why did you photocopy them and not just leave them in pencil?

Thanks!


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 29, 2015)

Many test takers opt to photocopy test materials that have pencil marks, or re-write it in pen, in order to prevent any trouble during the test. You don't want to take materials into the test with pencil marks and have the proctors think you're writing in your materials during the exam.

When I took the test I had a lot of notes on my MERM that were pencil. I highlighted over them just to be safe. I did take a copy of the 2001 NCEES practice exam with me that had pencil marks but I didn't open it during the exam.

I think this is one of those, "better to be safe than sorry" precautions.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 29, 2015)

It's not about being safe, they can boot you if they see pencil marks. I would not bank on them asking questions. Write it in pen or copy it.


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## ptatohed (Mar 29, 2015)

In CA, I had pencil marks all over all of my material and there was no problem any of the times I sat for the 8hr, CA-Survey, or CA-Seismic. There was no way I was going to zerox everything and/or highlight everything.


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## matt267 PE (Mar 29, 2015)

Just don't bring your exam pencil anywhere near your references. Therefore, the proctors won't feel the need to check your books.


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## ptatohed (Mar 29, 2015)

matt267 said:


> Just don't bring your exam pencil anywhere near your references. Therefore, the proctors won't feel the need to check your books.


Very true, good point. But DO bring your exam pencil home.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 29, 2015)

It's statistically proven that PE test takers who don't bring the pencil home fail the exam.


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## adamn185 PE (Mar 29, 2015)

Haha thanks for the advice guys. I think I'll call the board (NC for me). Another thing is that I usually only write on one side of a sheet of paper when solving a problem so I have a binder of solved problems, in pencil, that are blank on the back... That said I don't want to photocopy the whole 9 yards if not needed.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

2-1 copier, half the paper to tote around. Better get to 3 hole punching, times running out.


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## envirotex (Mar 30, 2015)

^^^This. Haha. That's exactly what I did.


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## iwire (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> It's not about being safe, they can boot you if they see pencil marks. I would not bank on them asking questions. Write it in pen or copy it.


True that..Between talking to a few people and a couple around got booted out before...(I think it was a dozen) and proctor randomly searching your books as well


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## iwire (Mar 30, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> matt267 said:
> 
> 
> > Just don't bring your exam pencil anywhere near your references. Therefore, the proctors won't feel the need to check your books.
> ...


then you can mail those pencils to me!


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## ptatohed (Mar 30, 2015)

iwire said:


> Ken 3.0 said:
> 
> 
> > It's not about being safe, they can boot you if they see pencil marks. I would not bank on them asking questions. Write it in pen or copy it.
> ...


I have not heard of one case of an examinee being ejected for the sole reason of having pencil marks in his/her reference material.

Also, I do not see anywhere in the NCEES Candidate Agreement that states you can't have pencil writing in your bound notes and references.

I think you guys are concerning yourselves with something that doesn't need concerning. I'd recommend you spend the valuable time it'd take to highlight/copy/erase all your pencil writing elsewhere.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

I am reading it in the candidate agreement for pencil and paper exams.

I'm not trying beat a dead horse, just not worth it when you can copy your notes and then it's a non issue.


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## ptatohed (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> I am reading it in the candidate agreement for pencil and paper exams.
> 
> I'm not trying beat a dead horse, just not worth it when you can copy your notes and then it's a non issue.


You are reading what in the candidate agreement?


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

No writing in reference materials.


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## matt267 PE (Mar 30, 2015)

When in doubt, err on the side of caution.

When in doubt, call the board.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 30, 2015)

As I read it, the NCEES exam guide does not specifically address the issue of pencil-written notes on your references. As Matt said, the safest route is to contact your state board and get verification. I have not met anyone who was removed from the exam for *bringing* reference material with pencil marks. Again, based on my experience only, I had no problems taking my Sample exam with pencil written notes into the exam.


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## ptatohed (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> No writing in reference materials.




No writing (verb) on your reference material on exam day, or no coming in with pencil notes/writing (noun) already in your reference material? Can you copy and paste the wording from the agreement you are refering to?


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

Like I said a while back, it's not worth the hassle. If there is pencil writing in your notes, can you prove it was there before the exam?

My recommendation was to photo copy it to remove all doubt as to your intent. I don't know if they will or will not be searching anybody's references. All I know is that there was no way I was taking that chance. Take it for what it's worth. Just trying to help. I guess sometimes free advice isn't worth the price.


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## ptatohed (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> Like I said a while back, it's not worth the hassle. If there is pencil writing in your notes, can you prove it was there before the exam?
> 
> My recommendation was to photo copy it to remove all doubt as to your intent. I don't know if they will or will not be searching anybody's references. All I know is that there was no way I was taking that chance. Take it for what it's worth. Just trying to help. I guess sometimes free advice isn't worth the price.


[SIZE=10.5pt]What is not worth the hassle? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt]I am just suggesting it is an unnecessary waste of time and money to photo copy everything that has pencil on it when there are no restrictions for bringing in material containing pencil writing. The simple advice I would give is to never place your pencil anywhere near your material during the exam. [/SIZE]


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

The simple advice I would give is to never place your pencil anywhere near your material during the exam.

Really?!?


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## ptatohed (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> The simple advice I would give is to never place your pencil anywhere near your material during the exam.
> 
> Really?!?


Really what?


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## envirotex (Mar 30, 2015)

NCEES Rep: Hello envirotex. How may I help you?

envirotex: Are pencil marks allowed on your reference materials that you bring into the exam room?

NCEES Rep: Yes, there is not a set rule regarding this. We suggest highlighting over these so there is no question as to when these were written

envirotex: OK. Thank you. How about hand written solutions to example questions? I know that the policy varies by state on bringing in solutions...

Sorry, can they be in pencil?

NCEES Rep: Yes, but again if you can go over with a highlighter so there is no question

envirotex: Thanks. I appreciate the answer! Have a good Monday!


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> Ken 3.0 said:
> 
> 
> > The simple advice I would give is to never place your pencil anywhere near your material during the exam.
> ...


That your advice is to not put the pencil near your references. Sorry, but that seems absurd to me.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 30, 2015)

envirotex said:


> NCEES Rep: Hello envirotex. How may I help you?
> 
> envirotex: Are pencil marks allowed on your reference materials that you bring into the exam room?
> 
> ...


That goes exactly with my original point, remove all doubt.


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## matt267 PE (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> ptatohed said:
> 
> 
> > Ken 3.0 said:
> ...


That was my advice, and I think it's damn good too. All my notes are in ink anyway.


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## ptatohed (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> ptatohed said:
> 
> 
> > Ken 3.0 said:
> ...


It does? Seriously? You would recommend placing your pencil near your reference material during the exam?? Yikes. You're funny, you'll spend who knows how many wasted hours/money/resources copying every single location in your reference material where you have pencil (even when not required to) but you have no problem moving your hand/pencil over to one of the pages of your reference material in front of the proctors on exam day?

Copying (or highlighting) an entire notebook of two-sided solutions, copying the hundreds of pages from my MUTCD, HCM, GDHS, etc., not to mention copying the hundreds of pages of bound material (CERM) with pencil notes..... no thank you.

Making sure my pencil stays near my scantron during the exam to eliminate any doubt that I wrote in a reference.... sure, easy solution.


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## knight1fox3 (Mar 30, 2015)

A habit that I got into was when going into one of my references, for any reason, my pencil went down on top of my scantron. Once I was ready to resume exam work/answers, I picked my pencil back up from the table. It was an easy solution that removed all doubt of me making pencil marks in my materials during the exam. :thumbs:


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 30, 2015)

I guess it boils down to the following:

1. If you want to remove all doubt and have the time and resources then by all means highlight/copy.

2. If you're studious about not putting the pencil near your references, don't have the time/resources, and don't see the need based on the written rules, then don't highlight/copy.


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## The Wizard (Mar 30, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> It's not about being safe, they can boot you if they see pencil marks. I would not bank on them asking questions. Write it in pen or copy it.


The only way they'll boot someone is if that person does something stupid and is caught writing in his/her books/reference material during the exam.

As ptatohed stated, some of you guys are making too much of a big deal out of this. *The rules are spelled out clear as day*. Absolutely no need to go copy stuff or highlight it to supposedly cover your ash.

I had so many pencil marks/notes in my books, it was ridiculous. Proctors walked past me all day long and didn't say squat. Why? Because they can't.


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## matt267 PE (Mar 31, 2015)

:deadhorse: If a proctor boots you from the exam, and they were wrong, you still got booted from the exam. :deadhorse:


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 31, 2015)

The proctors are human and try to interpret things the same as you and I. I was not diligent enough to remember to set my pencil down prior to opening my references. As I have stated all along, I chose to err on the side of caution.

Everyone has their choice in how they prepare for the exam. The question was asked on bringing solutions into the room, and I jumped into the chain as to why someone would copy their notes.

Can we all agree to disagree?

It's fairly apparent that we see things differently.


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## micahferguson1 (Mar 31, 2015)

I contacted NCEES months ago, and they confirmed that there is no rule against having notes in pencil. As stated many times above, only writing in your references is prohibited. They said that I could copy notes in pen or highlight as a precaution, but for anyone who has as many pencil notes as me, that is simply a waste of valuable time.


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## ptatohed (Mar 31, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> The proctors are human and try to interpret things the same as you and I. I was not diligent enough to remember to set my pencil down prior to opening my references. As I have stated all along, I chose to err on the side of caution.
> 
> Everyone has their choice in how they prepare for the exam. The question was asked on bringing solutions into the room, and I jumped into the chain as to why someone would copy their notes.
> 
> ...


In post #41, my advice of putting your pencil next to your scantron was an "absurd" idea, but now you agree it is a good idea but you just weren't diligent enough? 

I guess you could also 'err on the side of caution' and wear a hardhat to the exam in case any ceiling tiles fall on your head! 

But seriously, if a proctor thinks he/she saw you write in your reference material, I think you have bigger problems than what any xeroxing or highlighting can solve. If they truly think they saw you writing in your books, I don't think it will be a quick visit to your desk and "Oh, look, you have highlighting, forgive me, please carry on....". I suspect they'll take your material and pull you off to the side for further investigation which would take up who knows how much test time, highlighting or not.

I contend that if you just don't write on your references on exam day, you'll be golden.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Mar 31, 2015)

ptatohed said:


> Ken 3.0 said:
> 
> 
> > The proctors are human and try to interpret things the same as you and I. I was not diligent enough to remember to set my pencil down prior to opening my references. As I have stated all along, I chose to err on the side of caution.
> ...


Not certain where I agreed with you on your point. Either way, I see it differently and any test taker has the option to do whatever the heck they want. [emoji3]


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 31, 2015)

I think we've beaten this horse to death...in fact I think it's almost completely decomposed at this point. The question has been answered both in terms of strict interpretation of the rules as well as what some recommended courses of actions are. Time to move on?


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## NB15 (Mar 31, 2015)

I have a solution that works for everyone...colored pencils! That way you can still take notes in pencil (it bugs me at my core to do math in pen for some reason) and be able to erase any mistakes, and it's in color so the proctors know they weren't written with the exam pencil they gave you that day. Added bonus is that your notes stand out easier and don't get lost in the sea of black text on every page.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Mar 31, 2015)

To sidetrack a bit (much needed?) I don't know many engineers, if any, that do calculations/writing in pen. The only thing I've seen engineers do is sign their signature in pen, everything else is in pencil.

I personally am not a fan of colored pencils, although I have seen them used on piping / wiring drawings to aid interpretation.


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## MechE_in_PA_PE (Mar 31, 2015)

Never used pen for calculations until preparing for the PE....now I'm starting to only use pens at work too.

Last week I actually did a practice exam using a bic mechanical pencil (closest one I could find to the ncees pencil). Just to make sure I could use it for eight hours without smashing through lead


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## The Wizard (Apr 1, 2015)

NB15 said:


> I have a solution that works for everyone...colored pencils! That way you can still take notes in pencil (it bugs me at my core to do math in pen for some reason) and be able to erase any mistakes, and it's in color so the proctors know they weren't written with the exam pencil they gave you that day. Added bonus is that your notes stand out easier and don't get lost in the sea of black text on every page.


I'd totally agree with you if colored pencils were just as user friendly as regular pencils. I hate colored pencils, you have to push a little harder than a regular pencil or mechanical pencil to use them, the tip always seems to snap off too easily, and once you write something and you go to erase it, only 80% of it erases! Drives me nuts!!


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## ptatohed (Apr 1, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> ptatohed said:
> 
> 
> > Ken 3.0 said:
> ...


I have no idea what this means "Not certain where I agreed with you on your point."


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Apr 1, 2015)

So, obviously asking if we can agree to disagree was to subtle. So how about you're right and I'm wrong? Will that allow you to move on? Should I call my state and tell them to revoke my license because your better than me? Will I then be allowed to move on from this pointless argument? Whatever I did to piss you off, I truly am sorry. I won't ever do that again. Can we please change the topic now? Are you satisfied? Did you win?


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## IlliniWood (Apr 1, 2015)

Are the proctors generally very strict? I didn't take any chances heading into the exam last October, so everything I had was in line with NCEES guidelines, but the proctors didn't even look at our references. They would look up enough to notice when someone raised their hand to go to the restroom, but I doubt they would have noticed someone writing anything down.

"Food" and drinks were allowed, although we were required to keep beverages on the floor so we didn't screw up our scantrons. The only strange rule was that if we didn't want to wear our watches, we couldn't have them on the table.


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## Kovz (Apr 1, 2015)

IlliniWood said:


> "Food" and drinks were allowed, although we were required to keep beverages on the floor so we didn't screw up our scantrons. The only strange rule was that if we didn't want to wear our watches, we couldn't have them on the table.




That's actually a rule stated in the NCEES guideline. I thought it was strange too.


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## Lumber Jim (Apr 1, 2015)

"Thought for the day.

During the space race back in the 1960's, NASA was faced with a major problem. The astronaut needed a pen that would write in the vacuum of space. NASA went to work. At a cost of $1.5 million they developed the "Astronaut Pen". Some of you may remember. It enjoyed minor success on the commercial market.

The Russians were faced with the same dilemma.

They used a pencil."
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/business/genius/spacepen.asp#awlmeidJMj2AK0F5.99


I think the opposite applies here for the "writing in pencil in your reference material debacle"...


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## matt267 PE (Apr 1, 2015)

I bet that's why the Russians never made it to the moon.


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## ptatohed (Apr 1, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> So, obviously asking if we can agree to disagree was to subtle. So how about you're right and I'm wrong? Will that allow you to move on? Should I call my state and tell them to revoke my license because your better than me? Will I then be allowed to move on from this pointless argument? Whatever I did to piss you off, I truly am sorry. I won't ever do that again. Can we please change the topic now? Are you satisfied? Did you win?




Relax dude!


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## CivEnv (Apr 21, 2015)

After reading through this thread I was concerned about all my pencil written notes throughout my references. On a non-study night while I was watching TV, I started going through trying to highlight all the pencil markings. I probably spent 2 hours and got through half of one book. I decided it was a waste of time given that it is not an explicit NCEES or CA rule.

In the test (San Mateo, CA), the proctors checked all the calculators (I saw someone turn in their TI-83 to amnesty!) and some flipped through references to check for loose paper, but said nothing about markings, that I saw.

All of that said, if I was starting to study for the exam right now, I would use pen for notes in my references just to avoid any potential issue.


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## Kovz (Apr 21, 2015)

I'll chime in on the pencil issue. I took the exam last week and had several pencil marks in my references. I kept my pencil, scantron, and test on one side of me, and my reference books on the other. I had no issues and proctors would walk by and look over my shoulder all throughout the day.

But I agree with the post above mine... if I have to take the test again, I will be using pen from now on. I'm not going to bother highlighting all the pencil notes that are already there though.


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## lundy (Apr 21, 2015)

I believe the proctors could argue that you highlighted your book and wrote pencil over it. I made sure and erased all pencil markings on my practice tests and just had pen notes on all other references. Pencil markings anywhere would concern me.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Apr 21, 2015)

You would have to find a pretty pedantic proctor to question that lundy. If you use the NCEES chat feature, one of the common pieces of advice is to highlight the pencil marks.


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## ptatohed (Apr 21, 2015)

[SIZE=10.5pt]I have been on this forum for years and I have never seen such an unusual concern over this whole pencil thing as this spring 2015 administration. I don't want to go as far as saying it is an irrational concern but it is certainly an unnecessary concern people. Why is everyone worried that proctors will make the leap from you having existing pencil marks in your books to you cheated? I don’t get it. There are no rules against preexisting pencil marks in your references. If you don’t want to get in trouble for cheating, don’t cheat. Don’t write in your references during the exam. Period. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=10.5pt][/SIZE]

The accounts of examinees successfully bringing in references with pencil marks is countless. The stories of an examinee being disqualified due to existing pencil marks is……, well,.................... zero.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Apr 21, 2015)

Not to continuously beat a dead horse, but during one cycle I was in in Massachusetts the proctor went around and told everyone who had worked out examples that they were not allowed. The fear may be unfonded, but not irrational.


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## matt267 PE (Apr 21, 2015)

I think we should table this discussion until the October 2015 exam session.


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## MechE_in_PA_PE (Apr 21, 2015)

Nah I want to get my post count up....

I was one of the paranoid ones that did all my notes in pen.... Based on my exam day experience it was probably misplaced paranoia, but oh well

At my exam site (pittsburgh) there was no overt checking of exam materials. The proctor did a walk around to verify exam authorization, ID, and seat # / signatures were signed and perhaps glanced at our reference materials and calculators.

We were told that we had to keep watches on the wrist or on the floor and that water had to be on the floor when you were not actively drinking. They also told us that if we were found with a phone or unapproved calculator in our possession that we would be removed from the site and exam results invalidated; however they did offer an amnesty table before the exam started (one guy turned his phone in at pretty much the last second).

The only thing that I saw was that a proctor told one guy that he could not place boxes on the table (he was stacking them up like a bookcase) and said they had to be on the floor.

The proctors all seemed like reasonable folks an did not seem like they were "out to get us"


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## The Wizard (Apr 21, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> Not to continuously beat a dead horse, but during one cycle I was in in Massachusetts the proctor went around and told everyone who had worked out examples that they were not allowed. The fear may be unfonded, but not irrational.


That proctor should have been reported for not doing his job correctly. If I was at that exam and I was confronted, I'd tell him to go pound sand and come back with proof that pencil writings are not allowed. The rules are the rules.


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## The Wizard (Apr 22, 2015)

Darn it, I lost my ability to edit posts again.

Change out the words "pencil writing" for "worked out examples". I guess I still had the whole pencil writing debate in my head.

Having worked out examples (in pencil or pen) is really no different than the printed worked out examples/solutions found in the CERM and many other reference materials IMHO. With that said, I believe my original comment still holds true.

EDIT: I can edit this post but not the one above? This site has some weird functions...


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## matt267 PE (Apr 22, 2015)

The Wizard said:


> EDIT: I can edit this post but not the one above? This site has some weird functions...


Likely a glitch


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 22, 2015)

matt267 said:


> The Wizard said:
> 
> 
> > EDIT: I can edit this post but not the one above? This site has some weird functions...
> ...


Whoa, hang on there professor. We uh...."fixed" the glitch.


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Apr 22, 2015)

These things tend to work themselves out.


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 22, 2015)

I think the real question to Matt here is, what would you say, ya do here?


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## Ken PE 3.1 (Apr 22, 2015)

Did you get the memo?


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## NJmike PE (Apr 22, 2015)

&gt;https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAY27NU1Jog


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## knight1fox3 (Apr 22, 2015)

Ken 3.0 said:


> Did you get the memo?


More importantly, did it have a cover sheet?


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## matt267 PE (Apr 22, 2015)

knight1fox3 said:


> I think the real question to Matt here is, what would you say, ya do here?


SPAM!!


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