# HVAC or TFS exam?



## DaisyD (Feb 3, 2020)

I’ve looked up this question a few different places but not sure if I’ve seen someone in the same situation. I didn’t pass the HVAC test in October and was wondering if I should change to TFS this year. I do HVAC design reviews in my job (QA type stuff) and basic load analysis, so on a day to day basis I’m definitely not designing large systems or sizing equipment.  My familiarity with the Ashrae books are typically limited to 62.1 for ventilation rates and maybe if I need to look up R values for construction although this is rare.  My question is do I switch to the TFS exam or stick to HVAC? To be honest I was surprised with how much thermo there was on the exam that I had to check I was taking the right exam...any insight would be helpful!


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Feb 3, 2020)

DaisyD said:


> I’ve looked up this question a few different places but not sure if I’ve seen someone in the same situation. I didn’t pass the HVAC test in October and was wondering if I should change to TFS this year. I do HVAC design reviews in my job (QA type stuff) and basic load analysis, so on a day to day basis I’m definitely not designing large systems or sizing equipment.  My familiarity with the Ashrae books are typically limited to 62.1 for ventilation rates and maybe if I need to look up R values for construction although this is rare.  My question is do I switch to the TFS exam or stick to HVAC? To be honest I was surprised with how much thermo there was on the exam that I had to check I was taking the right exam...any insight would be helpful!


Hi @DaisyD, if you haven't already, check out this video from DTC, I found it helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdspjsgN9d8 

In a nutshell, unless you're developing detailed HVAC designs 100% of your work day, go with TFS. Yes, there's a lot of overlap, but this advice generally seems good. I came from the other direction, switching from MDM to TFS. It was a life saver. In TFS, you generally use the same handful of equations over and over (and over) so that makes the exam more "passable" to me (full disclosure, I did take the TFS multiple times but that was my own fault for not studying smarter). Your call if you want to take the DTC course. I did and finally passed.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 3, 2020)

Interesting. I watched that same video. I didn't buy it, and I stuck with MDM. I'm SO glad that I did. (Easily passed on my first try with taking Dr Tom's course.) I've always been an MDM guy since before college, throughout college, and for my 15 year career. I'll buy that TFS might be easier to learn (or less to learn) if you're starting from scratch, but I have 20+ years of MDM background vs maybe 2 years of TFS classes back in college and grad school.


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## OldSquaw (Feb 3, 2020)

DaisyD said:


> I’ve looked up this question a few different places but not sure if I’ve seen someone in the same situation. I didn’t pass the HVAC test in October and was wondering if I should change to TFS this year. I do HVAC design reviews in my job (QA type stuff) and basic load analysis, so on a day to day basis I’m definitely not designing large systems or sizing equipment.  My familiarity with the Ashrae books are typically limited to 62.1 for ventilation rates and maybe if I need to look up R values for construction although this is rare.  My question is do I switch to the TFS exam or stick to HVAC? To be honest I was surprised with how much thermo there was on the exam that I had to check I was taking the right exam...any insight would be helpful!


The answer to your question lies in the diagnostic report that NCEES gave you. What areas were you below average in? What areas were you average or above average in? If you were below average in all of the HVAC stuff but average or above average in all of the overlapping topics (like fluids, heat transfer, and thermodynamics) then TFS is probably the way to go. If you were average or above average in HVAC but below average in the other topics, then switching is probably not going to help you.

I haven't taken the exam yet, but I am taking the HVAC&amp;R test. I don't do HVAC in my career, but refrigeration. I decided to go with the HVAC&amp;R test because the TFS and HVAC&amp;R were extremely similar and I know all of the refrigeration questions without having to think.


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## DaisyD (Feb 3, 2020)

Thanks for the feedback...for the dr Tom’s course did you feel like you still needed to do problems from the MERM or other books to get a more thorough review? I took the Testmasters course and although it was a good general course it certainly wasn’t extensive for problem solving and I feel like that was one of my downfalls


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 3, 2020)

Most people here will you (and I agree) that the MERM problems are too hard and way too long. They aren't representative of the actual exam. Sure if you can do the hard problems then you can do the easier ones. But focusing on problems like the MERM problems don't allow you to practice you test taking strategies and your time management. Good time management is critical for passing the exam.

Speaking on Dr. Tom's MDM course, it creates some original problems, but also includes lots of problems from the NCEES practice exam and from the "Six Minute Problems" book. I didn't have time to do anything extra. But I was well prepared. But some people like to do LOTS of extra problems. Just personal preference I guess. I've seen people actively trading/borrowing/selling old versions of the NCEES practice exam on these boards for extra problems.

@squaretaper LIT AF PE, how'd you feel about the Dr Tom TFS course? Need to work extra problems, or was the course enough?


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## OldSquaw (Feb 3, 2020)

squaretaper LIT AF PE said:


> Hi @DaisyD, if you haven't already, check out this video from DTC, I found it helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdspjsgN9d8
> 
> In a nutshell, unless you're developing detailed HVAC designs 100% of your work day, go with TFS. Yes, there's a lot of overlap, but this advice generally seems good. I came from the other direction, switching from MDM to TFS. It was a life saver. In TFS, you generally use the same handful of equations over and over (and over) so that makes the exam more "passable" to me (full disclosure, I did take the TFS multiple times but that was my own fault for not studying smarter). Your call if you want to take the DTC course. I did and finally passed.


Can you explain what you mean by studying smarter? Did you just not do enough practice problems the first time? Or did you not focus on the right types of problems?


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Feb 4, 2020)

OldSquaw said:


> Did you just not do enough practice problems the first time? Or did you not focus on the right types of problems?


Yes and yes. I was not smart about targeting weaker knowledge areas and just powering through problems without thinking. During my early attempts I didn't really need the PE for work. That all changed when I was looking for a new job so I revamped my study routine.



jean15paul_PE said:


> how'd you feel about the Dr Tom TFS course? Need to work extra problems, or was the course enough?


I'm not a good case study because I had already worked through hundreds of practice problems during previous attempts. I think the best value from DTC is some general topic refreshing (for topics I don't usually cover at work) along with pretty valuable test taking strategy were my biggest takeaways. I'd say the course is "enough" in terms of a broad review of fundamentals. DTC was good about organizing information (and therefore, optimizing my problem-solving thought process, I have high test anxiety so I flame out easily, just keepin' it real).



DaisyD said:


> for the dr Tom’s course did you feel like you still needed to do problems from the MERM or other books to get a more thorough review?


50/50. Since I worked so many problems I had a good feel for my weak areas so I chose select practice problems from all sources (SMS, MERM, the yuuuge Practice Problems book...) to bolster my knowledge (and specifically, speed) in those areas. Good luck!


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Feb 4, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> I watched that same video. I didn't buy it, and I stuck with MDM. I'm SO glad that I did.


I think your experience still jives with Dr. Tom's advice. If you're strong in MDM (or TFS or HVAC or WRE or CM or Power or whatever) then you take that concentration. I was definitely not trying to _prescribe_ TFS, I don't really think DTC is either. I think the spirit of his advice was that, in the absence of any other strong experience/interest, pick TFS. Or, to bring it to a higher level of abstraction: pick whatever you think you can pass.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Feb 5, 2020)

On the other hand, I have never personally understood the desire to take the exam in an area outside of your practice solely for the sake of passing.  I work primarily TFS so that's what I took.  If my daily job was MDM or HVAC I would take either of those disciplines.  While I understand our PE licenses don't say P.E (TFS/HVAC/MDM etc.) I've always found it an ethically gray area to take the exam in a particular area for the sole sake of passing.

Also, with the change to CBT the exam is more discipline specific which address your concern that a large number of TFS-type questions showed up on the HVAC exam.


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## OldSquaw (Feb 5, 2020)

Ramnares P.E. said:


> On the other hand, I have never personally understood the desire to take the exam in an area outside of your practice solely for the sake of passing.  I work primarily TFS so that's what I took.  If my daily job was MDM or HVAC I would take either of those disciplines.  While I understand our PE licenses don't say P.E (TFS/HVAC/MDM etc.) I've always found it an ethically gray area to take the exam in a particular area for the sole sake of passing.
> 
> Also, with the change to CBT the exam is more discipline specific which address your concern that a large number of TFS-type questions showed up on the HVAC exam.


I agree I think people should take the exam that is closest to their current work or expected work if they are taking the exam prior to experience. It’s just difficult to choose between TFS and HVAC for some people. It was a difficult choice for me.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 5, 2020)

Ramnares P.E. said:


> On the other hand, I have never personally understood the desire to take the exam in an area outside of your practice solely for the sake of passing.  I work primarily TFS so that's what I took.  If my daily job was MDM or HVAC I would take either of those disciplines.  While I understand our PE licenses don't say P.E (TFS/HVAC/MDM etc.) I've always found it an ethically gray area to take the exam in a particular area for the sole sake of passing.
> 
> Also, with the change to CBT the exam is more discipline specific which address your concern that a large number of TFS-type questions showed up on the HVAC exam.


Yeah, I definitely agree if choosing between MDM and the others. Focus on your daily work. If choosing between TFS and HVAC, there seems to be SO much overlap in exam content and often in job responsibilities, that it definitely seems like an individual decision that needs to be made.

You say the CBT exam is mote discipline specific? I wasn't aware of that. The NCEES exam specification specifically said that topics haven't changed since April 2017. What's changing to make the CBT exam more discipline specific?


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## Ramnares P.E. (Feb 5, 2020)

jean15paul_PE said:


> Yeah, I definitely agree if choosing between MDM and the others. Focus on your daily work. If choosing between TFS and HVAC, there seems to be SO much overlap in exam content and often in job responsibilities, that it definitely seems like an individual decision that needs to be made.
> 
> You say the CBT exam is mote discipline specific? I wasn't aware of that. The NCEES exam specification specifically said that topics haven't changed since April 2017. What's changing to make the CBT exam more discipline specific?


It is my understanding effective April 2020 that the "general" morning portion of the exam will be replaced by a discipline specific morning session so folks taking TFS will be tested on that both in the morning and afternoon with little if any overlap in the other areas.  The latest exam specifications here: https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/mechanical/  seem to support that also if you look at the breakdown.


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## Edgy Cheesy Graphite PE (Feb 5, 2020)

Ramnares P.E. said:


> It is my understanding effective April 2020 that the "general" morning portion of the exam will be replaced by a discipline specific morning session so folks taking TFS will be tested on that both in the morning and afternoon with little if any overlap in the other areas.  The latest exam specifications here: https://ncees.org/engineering/pe/mechanical/  seem to support that also if you look at the breakdown.


That's been the case for years now, since 2017 I think. There was no general section when I took the exam in 2018. It was all MDM morning and afternoon. THANK GOD I didn't have to answer any thermal questions.


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## Ramnares P.E. (Feb 5, 2020)

ld-025: back in my day!


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## DaisyD (Feb 5, 2020)

Unfortunately, looking back at the exam specs and even the course material for testmasters, TFS has the same study sections except there is an advanced HVAC portion and then a separate steam section for TFS..my job covers both and to be honest “advanced HVAC” seems like something you learn on the job because there were certainly no classes for that during school and I don’t do design work.  Since it’s now a CBT, do you think I should bother buying the MERM or just focus on maybe another course (DTC since it seems like people have good success with it) and the practice problems from my last one/practice exams?


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## Audi Driver P.E. (Feb 6, 2020)

squaretaper LIT AF PE said:


> Hi @DaisyD, if you haven't already, check out this video from DTC, I found it helpful: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdspjsgN9d8
> 
> In a nutshell, unless you're developing detailed HVAC designs 100% of your work day, go with TFS. Yes, there's a lot of overlap, but this advice generally seems good. I came from the other direction, switching from MDM to TFS. It was a life saver. In TFS, you generally use the same handful of equations over and over (and over) so that makes the exam more "passable" to me (full disclosure, I did take the TFS multiple times but that was my own fault for not studying smarter). Your call if you want to take the DTC course. I did and finally passed.


I was going to recommend exactly the opposite and after reading your reply I'm actually still inclined to suggest he go that way. If you've done the HVAC exam once already, you're more than halfway prepared to do it again.


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## squaretaper LIT AF PE (Feb 7, 2020)

Audi driver said:


> I was going to recommend exactly the opposite and after reading your reply I'm actually still inclined to suggest he go that way. If you've done the HVAC exam once already, you're more than halfway prepared to do it again.


That's not bad advice either. Ultimately, none of us knows OP's situation exactly so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I just wish OP is successful whatever path they choose.


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