# --~~ Ask A Female Engineer Anything ~~--



## Guest (Jul 11, 2009)

Dear Female Engineers,

I was out shopping with FMJR. It started off as nothing unusual, she pleaded with me to get out with her since I had been gone so much during the week. I figured it was cool - grab a bite to eat, run some errands, pick up a a few things, etc.

Well, one of the things she said she needed were some pants or slacks since she is volunteering at the hospital while still looking for work. As we are walking through the ladies' apparel, she wanders into the 'intimates' section. As a man, I have always wondered what the appropriate protocol is in this situation: do I follow, stay behind, what exactly am I supposed to do in this situation?

Thanks for your insights!!

- Trying not to be a perv in the ladies' section


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## Paul S (Jul 11, 2009)

I am not your intended target audience, but here is my 2 cents.

FMJR wanted you to go shopping with her, and if she went in there, you should follow. Those things are just clothes, no need to fear them!


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 11, 2009)

jregieng said:


> Dear Female Engineers,
> I was out shopping with FMJR. As we are walking through the ladies' apparel, she wanders into the 'intimates' section. As a man, I have always wondered what the appropriate protocol is in this situation: do I follow, stay behind, what exactly am I supposed to do in this situation?
> 
> Thanks for your insights!!
> ...


If you can act at ease and focus on FMJR's interests, being there is fine.

However if you make loud bad jokes like asking if they have your size or can they double that order for your mistress...or pay excessive attention to others selections,... or paw the merchandise, that would be annoying.....and any other shoppers would feel really sorry for FMJR.

Collaborative lingerie buying can be a good thing -- women want flattering (&amp; in the right color) and well....you know what men want. Usually everyone can be happy. Just keep discussions quiet...

PS. We think it's charming when a guy shops for lingerie alone and is really focused on trying to figure out what his dear sweet wife would like (ask the sales help, not other shoppers for assistance) and come prepared with some idea of the right size. We'll overhear and pipe in if we have something helpful to add......

Good luck...


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## Fluvial (Jul 11, 2009)

You stand around with your hands in your pockets, and whenever she asks you about something say "Yes dear!"

(I'm kidding)

Guys who don't look out-of-place in the lingerie department or store are the ones who just look nonchalant ... kind of laid back, showing mild interest if their SO brings their attention to something, smiling politely to other shoppers, engaging in small talk with other men who are trapped in the store accompanying their ladies.

Of course, as Bricky says, don't be loud or tell obnoxious jokes or anything like that. I don't think you'd do that anyway.

Paul is also right. Lingerie isn't supposed to be scary.


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## Ble_PE (Jul 11, 2009)

I always have fun picking out the skimpiest outfit and holding it up to see if the wife like how it looks on me. She never seems to find it funny, but I get a lot of funny looks!


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 12, 2009)

I think you should buy a leopard skin man-thong while you are at it. To set the tone for future relations.


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## PE-ness (Jul 12, 2009)

Dear Female Engineers:

I have a problem: I am designing an aeration basin that is supposed to treat domestic wastewater with an average strength of 200 mg/L, at an average flow of 6.5 MGD, and a peak flow of 8 MGD. What confuses me is that I have a sidestream from a fish processing plant that is only about 50k gallons per day, but up to 400 mg/L BOD, and large grease loads.

My question is this: what does it feel like to have, you know.... boobies?


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## snickerd3 (Jul 12, 2009)

definitely follow her...she is the FMJR. I'd suggest even looking for an outfit you'd like to see her in, don't necessarily hold it up to show her but linger around it. If she sees you doing this she might just surprise you one day by wearing it. we know what we like, but sometimes its nice to see you like.


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## Fluvial (Jul 12, 2009)

PE-ness said:


> Dear Female Engineers:


The answer is:

We finish our wastewater calculations faster becasue we're not thinking about boobies.


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## Fluvial (Jul 12, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> I think you should buy a leopard skin man-thong while you are at it. To set the tone for future relations.


Don't do it JR !!! You'll lose your man card !!


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## frazil (Jul 12, 2009)

PE-ness said:


> Dear Female Engineers:
> I have a problem: I am designing an aeration basin that is supposed to treat domestic wastewater with an average strength of 200 mg/L, at an average flow of 6.5 MGD, and a peak flow of 8 MGD. What confuses me is that I have a sidestream from a fish processing plant that is only about 50k gallons per day, but up to 400 mg/L BOD, and large grease loads.
> 
> My question is this: what does it feel like to have, you know.... boobies?


what a dick!


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## maryannette (Jul 12, 2009)

frazil said:


> what a dick!



I agree. And I'm turning avatars off because of the animated boobs that VTE has.


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> If you can act at ease and focus on FMJR's interests, being there is fine.


Well, I was certainly doing that - my disease is that I am in the lingerie section of a store. If I were only with people I knew (friends and such) no biggie ... with strangers; it feels a tad wonky.



CivE Bricky said:


> However if you make loud bad jokes like asking if they have your size or can they double that order for your mistress...or pay excessive attention to others selections,... or paw the merchandise, that would be annoying.....and any other shoppers would feel really sorry for FMJR.


Definitely not like that at all!!!



CivE Bricky said:


> Collaborative lingerie buying can be a good thing -- women want flattering (&amp; in the right color) and well....you know what men want. Usually everyone can be happy. Just keep discussions quiet...


That's fair ... and I would say that FMJR and I would be quite discreet. 



CivE Bricky said:


> PS. We think it's charming when a guy shops for lingerie alone and is really focused on trying to figure out what his dear sweet wife would like (ask the sales help, not other shoppers for assistance) and come prepared with some idea of the right size. We'll overhear and pipe in if we have something helpful to add......


That's actually going to be a challenge for me ... I think I would certainly go solo with the thought of picking out something tasteful for FMJR. Of course, I have no idea how to even begin sizing things up .... but I am willing to learn!! 



Fluvial said:


> Guys who don't look out-of-place in the lingerie department or store are the ones who just look nonchalant ... kind of laid back, showing mild interest if their SO brings their attention to something, smiling politely to other shoppers, engaging in small talk with other men who are trapped in the store accompanying their ladies.


Well, that *IS* a good point. I just have to remember to keep that in mind. 



Fluvial said:


> Paul is also right. Lingerie isn't supposed to be scary.


Generally it isn't ... I was just surprised when FMJR strolled into that section of the store. Keep in mind .. I was previously married for 12 yrs, so I am having to re-learn habits. Ex-mrs. JR had very different habits - I would go grocery shopping and run errands with her so we could have 'together' time ... but she never wanted to do anything fun, exciting, imaginative, or the least bit creative. She was a major stick in the mud. FMJR is A LOT different - I just need to be better about erasing the old and getting into the new. 



snickerd3 said:


> definitely follow her...she is the FMJR. I'd suggest even looking for an outfit you'd like to see her in, don't necessarily hold it up to show her but linger around it. If she sees you doing this she might just surprise you one day by wearing it. we know what we like, but sometimes its nice to see you like.


I will definitely keep that in mind!! 

Thanks for the answers ladies!! 

- Trying not to be a perv in the ladies' section


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## Fluvial (Jul 12, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> I agree. And I'm turning avatars off because of the animated boobs that VTE has.


His was a silly question anyway because men have boobs too.

And, several of the message boards I'm on don't allow animated avatars (for many reasons). Y'all might want to consider implementing that.


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## Road Guy (Jul 12, 2009)

Never go shopping with any girlfriend, you set yourself up d

for a long trm shopping commitment, you also don't have to worry About the underwear section.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

I routinely went shopping for lingerie with that trollop known as Corset Girl. Even bought her some myself. It worked to my benefit at the time, but I'm sure she'll be enjoying it with someone else now, so IMO, it's a wash.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 13, 2009)

Never been to the naughty undies department.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

I'm somewhat surprised at the level of underpants shyness coming from this board in particular. I had, at the very least, been in Victorias Secret with EVERY girl I ever dated.


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## Ble_PE (Jul 13, 2009)

Supe said:


> I'm somewhat surprised at the level of underpants shyness coming from this board in particular. I had, at the very least, been in Victorias Secret with EVERY girl I ever dated.


I've been in VS with multiple girlfriends, but now that I'm married, I let the wife go in there while I relax on the mall bench.


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## chaosiscash (Jul 13, 2009)

Supe said:


> I'm somewhat surprised at the level of underpants shyness coming from this board in particular. I had, at the very least, been in Victorias Secret with EVERY girl I ever dated.


I'm in the same boat. Actually, my wife worked there while in college. She was always amazed at how little men knew about the size of the women they were shopping for. Apparently, every girlfriend or wife of any guy in there shopping alone was "about her size". It was a running joke among VS salesgirls, like these guys think that the salesgirls are going to try stuff on for them if they think the girl they are shopping for is the same size. I think some guys watch way too much porn.


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## Santiagj (Jul 13, 2009)

Ive been to Victoria's secret once. I felt like a deer in headlights.


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## maryannette (Jul 13, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> Never been to the naughty undies department.


Me, neither.


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## Fluvial (Jul 13, 2009)

I've only been in Victoria's Secret once or twice myself, come to think of it.

I'm not much of one for shopping though. I like to buy things online - going to the store is such a hassle.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 13, 2009)

If I showed up with some $75 frilly little number that covers no more than a wash cloth, I'd get smacked for wasting money.

A pair of running shorts will go farther in the brownie point department for me than crotchless panties.


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## TouchDown (Jul 13, 2009)

Funny. I'm sure there will be some getting "comfortable" with the SO for you JR. But, just do what feels right, be yourself.

My wife and I have been together 12 years, I've tried purchasing things for her from VS, and other places. She told me a long time ago... what's the purpose of buying all this fancy underwear when you want to take it off anyway. Don't buy me any of that crap - I'll wear it for like 10 seconds.

I'd say we're past the honeymoon stage, and the trying to impress each other stage. A little excitement is nice every once in a while, but again, just be yourself - don't be intimidated, speak up about what you like (just not too loudly).

Enjoy it.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

You guys are boring.

You can see how me and the little lady spiced things up for the 4th in my av.


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## Santiagj (Jul 13, 2009)

Is that a KFC bucket on her head?


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2009)

Santiagj said:


> Is that a KFC bucket on her head?


Gives all new meaning to original or extra crispy!! hmy:

JR


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 13, 2009)

jregieng said:


> Gives all new meaning to original or extra crispy!! hmy:
> JR


yuk.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

Santiagj said:


> Is that a KFC bucket on her head?


Yes. The added grease comes in handy.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 13, 2009)

Supe said:


> Yes. The added grease comes in handy.



now thats yuk


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## Kephart P.E. (Jul 13, 2009)

Santiagj said:


> Ive been to Victoria's secret once. I felt like a deer in headlights.


My 2nd and 5th girlfriends worked there. So yeah, been down that road. I don't think there is anything strange at all about just being around the clothing.

Honestly going to a Used Car Dealership/Hospital/Chuck-E-Cheese creeps me out way more.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 13, 2009)

Santiagj said:


> Ive been to Victoria's secret once. I felt like a deer in headlights.


The hubby has to go with me. The VS here only uses the registers in the perfum/lotion part of the store... even if you are buying underware you have to go over there. I have to hold my breath just passing stores like that in the mall (allergies) let alone waiting in line in the middle of the stink. The hubby gets the honors of waiting in line and I go wait out in the mall.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> The hubby gets the honors of waiting in line and I go wait out in the mall.



Now that's dedication.

What kills me more though, are how stores like Abercrombie and Hollister actually pump that cheap cologne stank through their air ducts. I damn near have an asthma attack anytime I go past them (although even if they didn't stink, you still couldn't get me to go in one.)


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 13, 2009)

^ I'm like that at any of those bath and body shops. Between the stench of fake vanilla and cucumber scented stuff, and the aromatherapy stuff they've got going on that smells like $1 cologne, it's disgusting.

What's so bad about Vaseline Intensive Therapy that you need that smelly stuff.

My Mom works in the beauty section of a drug store. She is always getting my wife samplers, discontinued seasonal stuff and other free shit. She keeps some of it, but throws the truly hideous stuff out. The other day she smelled like strawberry Quik mix.


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## Paul S (Jul 13, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> The other day she smelled like strawberry Quik mix.


Great, another smell to associate with something else.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

Paul S said:


> Great, another smell to associate with something else.



So you're going to drink VT's wife? :blink:

Bath and Bodyworks isn't too bad. In the words of the man show, "you could break wind in there all day and nobody would ever notice."


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 13, 2009)

> So you're going to drink VT's wife?


Ooh, can I watch?


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## Fluvial (Jul 13, 2009)

D. Kephart said:


> Honestly going to a Used Car Dealership/Hospital/Chuck-E-Cheese creeps me out way more.


Chuck E Cheese is a festering boil on the a$$ of life.


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> Chuck E Cheese is a festering boil on the a$$ of life.


Probably because it has children in it.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 13, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> now thats yuk


You think that's disgusting, look at this. I think I can see her kidneys.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 13, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> You think that's disgusting, look at this. I think I can see her kidneys.


If ya posted something, I can't see it...probably a good thing


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## Supe (Jul 13, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> If ya posted something, I can't see it...probably a good thing


X2. Have to check it when I get home!


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 13, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> You think that's disgusting, look at this. I think I can see her kidneys.


I 'saw' it. :bananalama:

Way to spit water in the face of life.


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## Hill William (Jul 14, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> You think that's disgusting, look at this. I think I can see her kidneys.


I'm not even supposed to be here today


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## maryannette (Jul 14, 2009)

So, is there a question here, in "Ask the Female Engineer"? Or is it just turning into gross guy stuff?


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## snickerd3 (Jul 14, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> So, is there a question here, in "Ask the Female Engineer"? Or is it just turning into gross guy stuff?


The boys ruined it again.


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## Ble_PE (Jul 14, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> The boys ruined it again.


Boys will be boys!


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 14, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> If ya posted something, I can't see it...probably a good thing


Nah, obligatory Clerks reference.



VTEnviro said:


> I 'saw' it. :bananalama:
> Way to spit water in the face of life.


You know, I showed that movie to my wife right after we met. She laughed so hard at that scene that SHE spit beverage out, almost choking herself in the process. She got many bonus points for liking that movie.



ble31980 said:


> Boys will be boys!


We can't help ourselves.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 14, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> The boys ruined it again.


We jinxed it by putting "Keep it Clean" right there in the title. That almost assures that it won't be kept clean.


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## Road Guy (Jul 14, 2009)

okay so here is a question...

The engineering firms I have worked at normally have less women than men, and the women usually get more than their fair share of attention from the guys at work (stopping by chatting, flirting, etc)

So do you enjoy this attention or is it ,, oohh gross the old guy is hitting on me again?


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

At the firm where I worked right out of college, chatting and wasting other people's time was frowned on. Severely. So anybody doing too much 'visiting' and not enough work was subject to reprimand. That tends to make one nervous, if a 'chatty Cathy' stops you and begins to tell you all about his collection of stuffed fleas or whatever. You worried about the boss catching you 'visiting'. So there's that.

One thing that I *really* hate is to be trying to have a serious discussion and then some bozo trying to make suggestive or lewd comments. We all went to Junior High, buster. Put a sock in it.  ther than that, 'creepy old guy' is purely subjective. Some people like the extra attention, and some don't.

On a more serious note, I had a construction job one time and the old man owner happened to come by the construction trailer where I was working on some quantities or something. He reached around from behind me and squeezed my boob. I was totally shocked! Needless to say, after that I always arranged for someone else to be there with me when he was coming by. The job had a 'government inspector' who was obliging enough to eat lunch there with me when the old man was going to be around. I remember one time the old man getting visibly angry to find the inspector there. Heh.

Corollary to that is the issue of attire - since I came into the professional world at a time when women engineers were few and far between, I've always been careful with my attire and attitude. Too much cleavage or chumminess and folks tend to peg you as 'less than professional'. I think that's changed somewhat, and I think it's good that people are lightening up a bit. I still think some attire is improper for business wear but not because of some moral hangup of mine, but simply because it's distracting and not conducive to getting work done. I like for people to take work seriously enough to give a good effort, not be clowning around or ogling each others' naughty bits.

I hope that doesn't make me appear draconian. I can joke and flirt around with the best, I just don't like to waste too much time doing it. A little goes a long way.


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## csb (Jul 14, 2009)

The problem is that EVERYONE wants to talk to you and you never get work done. My first job had an office right at the cross of two hallways. Everyone would stop and talk...and I would struggle to get them to leave. If a guy says, "Boy, Bob, I'm really busy, can we talk later?" Bob will be fine with it but if some young girl says the same thing, one of two things happens:

1. Bob is fine with it, because Bob is a decent human being

2. Bob is pissed, because Bob doesn't get that girl's don't have to be nice all the time.

I like talking, but I like that my current office knows the limits on talking and working.


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## TouchDown (Jul 14, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> On a more serious note, I had a construction job one time and the old man owner happened to come by the construction trailer where I was working on some quantities or something. He reached around from behind me and squeezed my boob. I was totally shocked! Needless to say, after that I always arranged for someone else to be there with me when he was coming by. The job had a 'government inspector' who was obliging enough to eat lunch there with me when the old man was going to be around. I remember one time the old man getting visibly angry to find the inspector there. Heh.


Not cool. I'm a little sad that the jackass didn't get a more "physical" response. ie. unloading a swinging kick to the crotch. What a bastard.


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> What a bastard.


Yeah, in retrospect ... I was just a dumb kid of 18. I should have turned him in or at least told somebody. I never did, just didn't know better.

My inspector buddy got really good at spotting the old man coming (this was a road project and the job trailer was located about the halfway point down the road). So he'd beat the old man up to the job trailer. One day he was sitting there when the old man came in, looked at inspector and gruffly barked "Don't you have work to do somewhere!". The inspector just looked at him with his goofy grin and said, "Nope.".


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## maryannette (Jul 14, 2009)

I've always been more conservative on what to wear, too, because I entered engineering almost 30 years ago. Also, I try to make sure that what I wear to work is functional for the work I'm doing.

An old guy once came up to me when I was in my early 20's and said, "I want to give you a screw." He then quickly opened his hand and revealed a threaded mechanical fastener. HA HA! Another one, walked up and asked if he could give me a kiss. He opened his hand and showed me a half melted Hershey's kiss. YUK!!! The kiss guy was also the one who would buy mis-shaped vegetables that looked like genitals and bring them to work for show and tell. He was deranged. Very deranged. I've also made announcements that if anyone comes up behind me and touches me that I have a reflex reaction with either an elbow or a back-hand.

Really, what could they be thinking?


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## Supe (Jul 14, 2009)

I don't know, Mary. I think vegetable guy would be a big hit at bachelor parties!


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## maryannette (Jul 14, 2009)

Bachelor party might be okay for veggies, but not an engineering office.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 14, 2009)

> Really, what could they be thinking?


My cucumber, it's bigger...


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## maryannette (Jul 14, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> My cucumber, it's bigger...


Not Garden-scale, though.


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## Supe (Jul 14, 2009)

Yeah, VT's cucumber will never be big enough to make the G. It's barely big enough for his HOs.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 14, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> Not Garden-scale, though.


:appl:



Supe said:


> Yeah, VT's cucumber will never be big enough to make the G. It's barely big enough for his HOs.


Well played.


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## Wolverine (Jul 14, 2009)

Here's my question for the Ask The Girls:

One day, I went for a bike ride at lunch while wearing the appropriate cycling related apparel, otherwise known as bike shorts. On my entry back into the building, I was very clearly eye-groped by the female security guard. I mean, I was looking at her, and she was looking at me, and then she was not looking at my eyes anymore.

So, I'm not saying I've ever done anything even remotely similar, but just strictly hypothetically speaking, since you ladies might have more experience, if my eyes were to accidentally flick away for just a moment within the first ten seconds of meeting you, do you notice?

Also, is there such a thing as Ick Radar? Can you telepathically sense when there is ogling going on, especially when I'm ...uh...I mean someone else is wearing sunglasses?


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

Wolverine said:


> if my eyes were to accidentally flick away for just a moment within the first ten seconds of meeting you, do you notice?


Sometimes. Sometimes not.



> Also, is there such a thing as Ick Radar? Can you telepathically sense when there is ogling going on, especially when I'm ...uh...I mean someone else is wearing sunglasses?


Absolutely. 'icky guy' has almost a ... smell to it. Like desperation does, yanno?

ETA: there is a difference between 'icky ogling' and 'checking out'. Checking out can be done with some dignity, and sometimes it's an ego-booster. The icky stuff ... ew. I'm not calling you an icky guy!


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 14, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> Sometimes. Sometimes not.
> 
> 
> Absolutely. 'icky guy' has almost a ... *smell to it*. Like desperation does, yanno?
> ...


Like after a lunchtime bike ride?


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## csb (Jul 14, 2009)

Wolverine said:


> Here's my question for the Ask The Girls:
> One day, I went for a bike ride at lunch while wearing the appropriate cycling related apparel, otherwise known as bike shorts. On my entry back into the building, I was very clearly eye-groped by the female security guard. I mean, I was looking at her, and she was looking at me, and then she was not looking at my eyes anymore.
> 
> So, I'm not saying I've ever done anything even remotely similar, but just strictly hypothetically speaking, since you ladies might have more experience, if my eyes were to accidentally flick away for just a moment within the first ten seconds of meeting you, do you notice?
> ...


I SO notice. In fact, the other day I caught a co-worker looking at my fun bags. Unless I'm actively looking elsewhere, I'm going to notice.

I used to work construction and I can vouch that there is Ick Radar. I used to get the feeling and then I'd notice a gaggle of concrete finishers staring.

Oh, and I must fess up to eye groping muscular guys in bike shorts.


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## ALBin517 (Jul 14, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> I had a construction job one time and the old man owner happened to come by the construction trailer where I was working on some quantities or something. He reached around from behind me and squeezed my boob. I was totally shocked! Needless to say, after that I always arranged for someone else to be there with me when he was coming by. The job had a 'government inspector' who was obliging enough to eat lunch there with me when the old man was going to be around. I remember one time the old man getting visibly angry to find the inspector there. Heh.


Yeah, by not smacking the oldtimer, he probably figured you were into it and inspector guy was c-blocking him.


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

I think old dude was used to it being 'acceptable' to paw at young girls - he must have been 70 at the time (it was 1978).


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 14, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> I think old dude was used to it being 'acceptable' to paw at young girls - he must have been 70 at the time (it was 1978).


Just relish in the fact that he's dead now.


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## csb (Jul 14, 2009)

He could be 100 somewhere, pawing at nursing home staff


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

csb said:


> He could be 100 somewhere, pawing at nursing home staff


That's a freaky thought. :blink:

I should tell y'all the story about when I walked out of class one time. I was pregnant at the time and you *know* how grumpy pregnant women are. Heh.


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## csb (Jul 14, 2009)

and flatulent!

ahem

Story!


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 14, 2009)

If there's a Fudgey story coming, give us some warning first.


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## MGX (Jul 14, 2009)

So do men or women design brassiers?


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## snickerd3 (Jul 14, 2009)

MGX said:


> So do men or women design brassiers?


got to be male...some are so uncomfortable I don't think a woman would have ever let it leave the design table


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> If there's a Fudgey story coming, give us some warning first.


Never. I never tell TMI stuff. :blush:


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## MGX (Jul 14, 2009)

Women complain to me; that its my fault bras don't fit.

Why not use an injection-molded form in lieu of a piece of steel wire? I think such an idea should be called die ueber buestenhalten.

With the amount of time spent every day thinking about boobs, I've no doubt a superior design could be produced from my office.


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## csb (Jul 14, 2009)

like a storm trooper?!


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

MGX said:


> Why not use an injection-molded form in lieu of a piece of steel wire? I think such an idea should be called die ueber buestenhalten.


There's all different kinds - all bras aren't underwire. Some have molded cups etc. Price has a lot to do with it - cheaper bras, of course, don't support as well.

From wikipedia:

_The major engineering weakness of the bra, particularly if poorly fitted, is that it acts as a pulley, transferring the weight of the breasts from the lower chest wall to higher structures such as the back, shoulder, neck, and head. This can result in pain and injury in those structures_


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## MGX (Jul 14, 2009)

Where the lower boob intersects the chest, a small circular triangular region is created. If a lightweight foam or suitable material could match said void perhaps the bra could be more comfortable.

However this condition could leave to the rest of the boob being cantilevered over the injection molded form, resulting in tension created in the upper boob region. Surely a strain condition would be the result.

A type of tension member could pick up the cantilevered boob to relieve stress and cause the appearance to be more pert. What manner of attachment in between the foam region, lower boob, upper boob and neck anchor still needs to be determined.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 14, 2009)

[No message]


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## csb (Jul 14, 2009)

damnit! Why do my prom pictures keep popping out  up?


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## Fluvial (Jul 14, 2009)

FL that is so old, dude.

MGX, 80% of the support is supposed to come from the chest band, not from the straps. Iif you put too much weight on the straps it is bad for the neck and back.

So the cup is supposed to be supported from below by the band. Get the band right and you won't even need straps.

That pic is more weird 'cos it looks like silver tubes are growin out of their heads.


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## maryannette (Jul 14, 2009)

Well, I have made some decisions about my comfort. I'm 51 years old. I don't HAVE to have perfectly shaped boobs at the expense of my comfort. No underwires. I also gave up wearing mascara a few years ago.


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 15, 2009)

Road Guy said:


> okay so here is a question...
> The engineering firms I have worked at normally have less women than men, and the women usually get more than their fair share of attention from the guys at work (stopping by chatting, flirting, etc)
> 
> So do you enjoy this attention or is it ,, oohh gross the old guy is hitting on me again?


I work mostly with men--but few are available and I haven't been available for a long time either. Although it rarely happens now to me, what's really annoying is when your excellent brain gets overlooked or ignored. That pushes my button vs. flirting which is usually easy to squash. You may be sitting in a group brainstorming and come up with a great insight. No one acknowledges it until some guy repeats it and suddenly its golden. I've learned to compensate by jumping in a bit and being more aggressive than I'd naturally be. I clearly request instead of suggesting etc. etc. The problem is that I sometimes find it hard to recalibrate when I'm with females.

I usually cut people slack and zero in on the intention. If an old guy makes some inappropriate joke, but routinely gives me credit for good ideas and treats me (mostly) as another engineer, I can think of him "as a product of his generation".....but I'm never going to see him as modern male that might have had potential if I wasn't married. I married a very modern man and those are the people I'm going to trust and share my true self with--someone on my wavelength that respects my interests and my sense of humor. If an attraction seems to have developed, I'll just chill out and back off and be 100% business for a while until it passes....sometimes it can be amusing or even endearing when some guy just obviously has a huge crush all of sudden...I'm not one to wear the skirt and pumps and cross my legs on the day I have to negotiate the 20K change order, but if some guy has trouble focusing on the work at hand and it's his problem, yeah, I'll push harder on my negotiation...especially if in looking at facts, I deserve to win that one.

I've developed a bit of authority over time -- lots of body language. People didn't touch my belly when I was pregnant. I use that to "encourage" others to treat me how I want to be treated.

A young really beautiful super talented engineer coworker dealt by never wearing makeup, jewelry, or dressy clothes to work -- because doing so aided people in seeing "her" -- and it mostly worked and gave her more authority and credibility with contractors and peers (although she still wanted more). It was always a shock to see her outside work when she was effortlessly drop dead gorgeous. She manipulated her looks and behavior to encourage the behavior she preferred in others.

Here's another intention story - when I was much younger, a 60ish contractor who I knew fairly well just swung his arm around my back and gave a friendly brief one arm buddy hug - it surprised me a little but then I realized he was treating me exactly as he'd treat a male in my role...it made me realize how seldom that happens.....I find I make lots of friendships and establish a comfort level, but it can sometimes take a little longer for me to have everyone comfortable than it might take a male in my role. Usually my projects are long enough that the little lag amounts to nothing in the end. It helps that I had every-hobby-there-ever-was Dad and three brothers, so I find it pretty easy to establish a rapport with men by talking hobbies.

Before I was married, I always had zillions of male friends (yeah, I know) but they treated me a real friend, regardless of how they might have changed our friendship given the opportunity. That's what I want out of male coworkers, too. No flirting at work -- but back in my single days if there was mutual interest, I was all for getting together outside of work to see what developed (as long as there wasn't an ethical issue with our business roles). Now that I'm married, I find it's lots harder to maintain male friendships outside of work...not 'cause my husband cares, but because no one does it, so it tough to get all interested parties comfortable with it and on the same page. It's just too hard - especially with my age group lacking much free time anyway.

So to sum up - if you think you're building brownie points by flirting every chance you get, you're likely wrong. If there's an attraction, either act on it by suggesting lunch, a "grab some coffee with me?" or a drink after work (ie bring it outside the office). If she says "no - I'm busy.", give it up. If she says, "I'm busy, but how's next Monday?" she's interested.

Lots of women will humor you or tolerate your flirting -- but resent it and wish you'd stop (at least at work). Again, if there's mutual interest, outside of work is another story. And if you hit it off outside work, don't bring that back in the office--continue to be professional at work - out of consideration for coworkers and your own careers if nothing else.


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 15, 2009)

Wolverine said:


> Here's my question for the Ask The Girls:
> One day, I went for a bike ride at lunch while wearing the appropriate cycling related apparel, otherwise known as bike shorts. On my entry back into the building, I was very clearly eye-groped by the female security guard. I mean, I was looking at her, and she was looking at me, and then she was not looking at my eyes anymore.
> 
> So, I'm not saying I've ever done anything even remotely similar, but just strictly hypothetically speaking, since you ladies might have more experience, if my eyes were to accidentally flick away for just a moment within the first ten seconds of meeting you, do you notice?
> ...


I'm gonna give away a few closely held woman secrets here - use the new knowledge wisely.

The one day bike shorts wearing is usually seen as a cheap play for an opportunity to show off assets. If you've got appeal, women will make note and appreciate whether they're secretly disgusted or intrigued--but you'll never get anywhere with that. If on the other hand, you wear them all the time because you're a hard core cyclist and get right to riding without touring the entire office first, you'll get respect and potentially high level interest. (Doing something for attention is either cute or pathetic -- but either way, not what you're going for. Doing something because you love it and well this is what you have to wear for that love --is hmmm...intriguing. So...it's all in how you do it.) BEWARE: b ike shorts are just a step above Speedos. You can only get away with Speedos at swim practice or during competition or by being foreign AND in a foreign country.

The security guard either:

was deliberately making a pass at you

curious

couldn't help herself

or wanted to objectify/minimize you.

I can't begin to guess which.....it's all in her facial expression, body language.

Do we notice your eye flicks? Yeah....usually and think "he's being a guy"... And you rarely lose points for that...but if it's more than a flick or you don't look at our faces or we need to repeat ourselves, we get disgusted. And if it happens routinely, we lose respect for you professionally and talk about it and you get a rep. And if you make us angry - we'll confront you directly... ("Stiff neck - should see a chiropractor for that.........&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;loser&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;.) And for the record, we do it too -- but try to be way way more clever about it than you guys are....and convince ourselves that you NEVER catch us.

Ick Radar? Oh yeah....finely tuned. Classic is the guy in the bar who hits on 90% of the women there - going in an obvious progression along his idea of most to less attractive. They reek of sleaze or desperation and come across as super needy -- which repels women. Don't be that guy. If he gets a woman, it's someone worse off than he is.

They are very very different from the classic bad boy/"gas station attendant". That's all about charisma/true confidence - every woman in the place will be (discretely) noticing this guy and well "taking him in"....perhaps not one will talk to him, but we're all on it. Sometimes he's too out there to consider(too dangerous, too bad, too scruffy/dirty, too something), but other times he's a realistic choice. Next time you're in a bar, ask who the women are noticing.......it's fun! "Ya know, women on this message board told me there's always a few guys all the women are very discretely noticing - I don't buy it -- did my leg get pulled?"

One of the funnest conversations I ever had was with a few girlfriends on the steps of the National Art Gallery. We sat there for an hour or two talking about what was sexy for us (looks and behavior). There wasn't complete consensus, but there was an awful lot. This kinda cute guy who looked like he'd use the knowledge wisely was listening in the entire time and thought we didn't know....he made our conversation more fun and we didn't steer him wrong.

Sunglasses? Outdoors, they give you a little cover, but we notice head tilt and such - you gotta be good to avoid suspicion. Indoors? You're so caught, it isn't funny---drunk, drugged, oogling or all of the above.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 15, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> MGX, 80% of the support is supposed to come from the chest band, not from the straps. Iif you put too much weight on the straps it is bad for the neck and back.
> So the cup is supposed to be supported from below by the band. Get the band right and you won't even need straps.


Tube top?


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## Supe (Jul 15, 2009)

I say just use a big foam insert for breast support. Sort of like those toe separators you gals use when painting your toenails.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 15, 2009)

Precast concrete retaining wall with #4 bars 12" O.C., each side.


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## frazil (Jul 15, 2009)

Wolverine said:


> Here's my question for the Ask The Girls:
> One day, I went for a bike ride at lunch while wearing the appropriate cycling related apparel, otherwise known as bike shorts. On my entry back into the building, I was very clearly eye-groped by the female security guard. I mean, I was looking at her, and she was looking at me, and then she was not looking at my eyes anymore.
> 
> So, I'm not saying I've ever done anything even remotely similar, but just strictly hypothetically speaking, since you ladies might have more experience, if my eyes were to accidentally flick away for just a moment within the first ten seconds of meeting you, do you notice?
> ...


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## csb (Jul 15, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> Precast concrete retaining wall with #4 bars 12" O.C., each side.


I can't wait to see the commercial for that on tv


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## Road Guy (Jul 15, 2009)

&amp; just to clarify my question, the old creepy guy flirting is not me (just something I witnessed... a lot)

I used to work in a mini-cube farm and was the only guy in my section, I was borrowing a cube in the water resources area which happened to be all chics, I mean women (just kidding) one of them got so tired of it she taped a sign to the back of her chair that said "only necessary interuptions please!" or something similar, it was pretty funny....


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 15, 2009)

Road Guy said:


> &amp; just to clarify my question, the old creepy guy flirting is not me


I'd never dream of making that assumption (cough, cough)


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## Wolverine (Jul 15, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> The security guard either:was deliberately making a pass at you
> 
> curious
> 
> ...


 I can't say that I'd never be interested in a 250#, six foot two, African-American-Amazon woman, filling out a size 6 uniform with only a little bit spilling out over the sides, I'm just saying it wasn't on my radar at the time. But never say never. I was quite flattered.


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## maryannette (Jul 15, 2009)

250 lbs in a size 6? Sounds like a sausage stuffing.


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## Fluvial (Jul 15, 2009)

I don't know how a six-foot two would be a size 6 either, unless they were stick-thin. Perhaps he meant size 16?


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## Guest (Jul 15, 2009)

Well ladies, I discovered something new. I took FMJR with me to an outlet mall yesterday. After going through a few stores, she wanted to stop at the L'eggs, Haines, Bali, Playtex store - apparently this store was set-up for women's undergarments. This time I entered without intrepidation!! 

Well, it turns out that FMJR was having issues with her existing undergarments - they had reached the end of their service life. She looked around a bit, but eventually said, okay, let's go. Now .. yes, I tend to be dense ... but I figured there is something I am missing, so I asked. After some prying, she told me about the undergarment dilemma (spelled correctly) but didn't want to "spend that much money" on undergarments. I guess she was a bit sheepish spending 'my' money on her undergarments.

I got a pretty good laugh ... and I told her to buy what she thought was necessary. When she came up with her number ... I multiplied by two since I figured she was fudging. That made her happy. 



CivE Bricky said:


> I'd never dream of making that assumption (cough, cough)


QFTW !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

JR


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 16, 2009)

jregieng said:


> This time I entered without intrepidation!!  That made her happy.


Fast learner, JR -I'm so proud. Nice job!


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Do L'Eggs still come in thos plastic eggs? I didn't even know they were around any more.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Do L'Eggs still come in thos plastic eggs? I didn't even know they were around any more.


Nope - these hose in this store were all in plastic wrap; no eggs. I remember the eggs too. ldtimer:

JR


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2009)

I used to cut the eggs in half, and use them as bows for my soda can boats.

You could make four boats from one container. I think there were still a few of the boats (with copious BB holes) left when my dad tore down the chicken house.


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

You are a clever guy, Cap'n.


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## OSUguy98 (Jul 16, 2009)

And here all we used them for was for the "Grand Prize" Easter Egg... hard as hell to hide... but usually had something worth it inside...


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 16, 2009)

^Panty hose are 'worth it' to you? :huh:

Not that there's anything wrong with that...


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## Wolverine (Jul 16, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> I don't know how a six-foot two would be a size 6 either, unless they were stick-thin. Perhaps he meant size 16?


 Nope, I meant what I said. Sausage-stuffing comes pretty close.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2009)

To borrow a phrase from FLBuff: yuk.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

jregieng said:


> Well ladies, I discovered something new. I took FMJR with me to an outlet mall yesterday. After going through a few stores, she wanted to stop at the L'eggs, Haines, Bali, Playtex store - apparently this store was set-up for women's undergarments. This time I entered without intrepidation!!
> Well, it turns out that FMJR was having issues with her existing undergarments - they had reached the end of their service life. She looked around a bit, but eventually said, okay, let's go. Now .. yes, I tend to be dense ... but I figured there is something I am missing, so I asked. After some prying, she told me about the undergarment dilemma (spelled correctly) but didn't want to "spend that much money" on undergarments. I guess she was a bit sheepish spending 'my' money on her undergarments.
> 
> I got a pretty good laugh ... and I told her to buy what she thought was necessary. When she came up with her number ... I multiplied by two since I figured she was fudging. That made her happy.
> ...


You'd assume outlet = entire store clearance and cheap, but those undergarmet outlet stores are not cheap, unless you go on a holiday weekend when they are running super sales, the prices are really only about 10-20% less than a department store. Or if you can find your size on the clearance rack.


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## Supe (Jul 16, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> You'd assume outlet = entire store clearance and cheap, but those undergarmet outlet stores are not cheap, unless you go on a holiday weekend when they are running super sales, the prices are really only about 10-20% less than a department store. Or if you can find your size on the clearance rack.



You know, most of the outlet stores I've been to in the past few years (I'd say at least 4-5 different outlets), the prices were EXACTLY the same as the department stores unless it was the toss-in-a-bin clearance stuff.


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## OSUguy98 (Jul 16, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> ^Panty hose are 'worth it' to you? :huh:
> Not that there's anything wrong with that...



the $20 was worth a hell of a lot more than the piece of gum or chocolate inside the other eggs


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## maryannette (Jul 16, 2009)

I had a HORRIBLE dream last night that I had to start wearing dressy business clothes to work again, with pantyhose! That would be horrible.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> You'd assume outlet = entire store clearance and cheap, but those undergarmet outlet stores are not cheap, unless you go on a holiday weekend when they are running super sales, the prices are really only about 10-20% less than a department store.


It was interesting ... we looked at several things during the visit. The only things that were *REALLY* on decent discount were at the Columbia Store - a very nice sale 30% - 70% off. I was disappointed that the parkas weren't marked down very much, so I took a pass.

Undergarments were decent - $15.00 if you bought them in threes.



snickerd3 said:


> Or if you can find your size on the clearance rack.


The problem was that FMJR is a bit .. shall we say endowed. I never realized just how much until I purchased undergarments for her.



Supe said:


> You know, most of the outlet stores I've been to in the past few years (I'd say at least 4-5 different outlets), the prices were EXACTLY the same as the department stores unless it was the toss-in-a-bin clearance stuff.


That was very true for most of the shops we entered. In fact, we went into the Bose shop because we are interested in a speaker-system to run our iPods from - same model, same price. Very disappointing to say the least.



Mary :) said:


> I had a HORRIBLE dream last night that I had to start wearing dressy business clothes to work again, with pantyhose! That would be horrible.


Is it that horrible? I am just asking ...

JR


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## Supe (Jul 16, 2009)

Please, read up on Bose sound and quality before even remotely thinking about buying anything from them. As a relatively hardcore audiophile (I've been building my own speakers and subwoofers since I was 15), I cringe when I even hear that brand name. They are 100% marketing, and about 1000% overpriced.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Supe said:


> Please, read up on Bose sound and quality before even remotely thinking about buying anything from them. As a relatively hardcore audiophile (I've been building my own speakers and subwoofers since I was 15), I cringe when I even hear that brand name. They are 100% marketing, and about 1000% overpriced.


This.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

jregieng said:


> The problem was that FMJR is a bit .. shall we say endowed. I never realized just how much until I purchased undergarments for her.


Full figure is the horrible term applied to those who have been generously blessed. Its hard finding cute full figure stuff, regardless of where you are looking. They do look strange on a hanger though, I'll give you that.


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## Dexman1349 (Jul 16, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> Full figure is the horrible term applied to those who have been generously blessed. Its hard finding cute full figure stuff, regardless of where you are looking. They do look strange on a hanger though, I'll give you that.


On the flip side, what is the point of a bra if the wearer is smaller than an A cup (especially if the wearer has no intention of trying to enlarge the contents)? Just curious...


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> On the flip side, what is the point of a bra if the wearer is smaller than an A cup (especially if the wearer has no intention of trying to enlarge the contents)? Just curious...


to cover/prevent nippleage?


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## Dexman1349 (Jul 16, 2009)

^^^ but why the $5 bra when the same effect could be made with a 3-pack of Hanes tank-tops for $5 at walmart?

My wife refuses to answer this question. She simply says, "you just don't understand." It must be like my signature...


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> ^^^ but why the $5 bra when the same effect could be made with a 3-pack of Hanes tank-tops for $5 at walmart?
> My wife refuses to answer this question. She simply says, "you just don't understand." It must be like my signature...


The hanes tank tops would be the route Id go if I were in that situation, but maybe its more of a pychological thing that women wear bras, little girls wear the trainers or tank tops.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2009)

^never thought of that.


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## frazil (Jul 16, 2009)

Dexman1349 said:


> ^^^ but why the $5 bra when the same effect could be made with a 3-pack of Hanes tank-tops for $5 at walmart?
> My wife refuses to answer this question. She simply says, "you just don't understand." It must be like my signature...


I would love to wear just tank tops (and do sometimes), but they do not prevent the 'nippleage'.


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

Agreed. If you have serious nipples, a padded bra is the only thing that will smooth them out. Even then sometimes it's noticeable.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 16, 2009)

Father: Hold! You cannot yet caress my daughter's awesome boobage!

Gerald: Huh... how come?

Father: There is... another suitor. [Kenny walks into view]

Gerald: What? [sees who it is] Get out of here, kid!

Kenny: Hey! [mumbles something, but makes it clear Gerald should be the one leaving.]

Gerald: You're too young for this stuff!

Father: This must be decided at the Brestriary in Nippopolis!

(Sorry, that was the first thing that came to mind when nipping out was mentioned)


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 16, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> (Sorry, that was the first thing that came to mind when nipping out was mentioned)


Really? Not this?


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> To borrow a phrase from FLBuff: yuk.


Point of clarification: This phrase was coined by sschell/the Dude. With him not being around as often as he once was, I have taken up the torch.


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## MGX (Jul 16, 2009)

Band aids can prevent nippleage.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Point of clarification: This phrase was coined by sschell/the Dude. With him not being around as often as he once was, I have taken up the torch.


the dude should be in the process of getting hitched or on the honeymoon by now.


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

MGX said:


> Band aids can prevent nippleage.


Who wants to have to wear a couple of band-aids every day?


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> Who wants to have to wear a couple of band-aids every day?


not too mention the pain induced when removing them. ouch


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Question for the ladies: What affects your sexual drive? Ther wife and I seem to be on different wavelengths. She keeps saying 'It's not you, it's me. I'm just stressed out right now...' It has gotten to the point that I don't initiate anything, cuz the answer is usually 'I'm too tired, not in the mood, etc.' I've tried all sorts of romantic things, and nothing seems to make a difference, and she gets really upset when I want to talk about it. Help!

&lt;---disgruntled husband


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Question for the ladies: What affects your sexual drive? Ther wife and I seem to be on different wavelengths. She keeps saying 'It's not you, it's me. I'm just stressed out right now...' It has gotten to the point that I don't initiate anything, cuz the answer is usually 'I'm too tired, not in the mood, etc.' I've tried all sorts of romantic things, and nothing seems to make a difference, and she gets really upset when I want to talk about it. Help!
> &lt;---disgruntled husband


where's chucktown...he just got past this.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

she could just be telling you the truth...stress does play a role.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

I don't doubt that she is, but it is the common theme. I'm more curious what the 'major' inhibitors to the female libido are. I'm usually ready to go when asked.

Edit: I'm not trying to get into TMI stuff, or be a whiny b!tch, just curious.


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## Wolverine (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> &lt;---disgruntled husband


I've got a suggestion for you, but it might cost up to $150k in legal fees and besides, this is the _ladies _answer forum.

   :huh: :blink: :smileyballs: :i_cry:


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 16, 2009)

> I'm more curious what the 'major' inhibitors to the female libido are.


That rash on your unmentionables?


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> I don't doubt that she is, but it is the common theme. I'm more curious what the 'major' inhibitors to the female libido are. I'm usually ready to go when asked.
> Edit: I'm not trying to get into TMI stuff, or be a whiny b!tch, just curious.


smells are a big one for me.


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## MA_PE (Jul 16, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> smells are a big one for me.


so I guess the dutch oven thing is not a turn-on for you.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Wolverine said:


> I've got a suggestion for you, but it might cost up to $150k in legal fees and besides, this is the _ladies _answer forum.    :huh: :blink: :smileyballs: :i_cry:


I know your answer, and that is not in the cards. We have agreed to work through things, and not go the legal route. And besides, I don't want to. I love her with all my heart. /sap off

Maybe I need a Wolf shirt...


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> I know your answer, and that is not in the cards. We have agreed to work through things, and not go the legal route. And besides, I don't want to. I love her with all my heart. /sap off
> Maybe I need a Wolf shirt...


or go buy a banana hammock and run around the house wearing in it.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> or go buy a banana hammock and run around the house wearing in it.


How 'bout bike shorts?


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## maryannette (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Question for the ladies: What affects your sexual drive? Ther wife and I seem to be on different wavelengths. She keeps saying 'It's not you, it's me. I'm just stressed out right now...' It has gotten to the point that I don't initiate anything, cuz the answer is usually 'I'm too tired, not in the mood, etc.' I've tried all sorts of romantic things, and nothing seems to make a difference, and she gets really upset when I want to talk about it. Help!
> &lt;---disgruntled husband


A lot of things can make a difference. I suggest that you offer to ease her stress by taking care of some of her stressful responsibilities for a day or two and offering a back rub or a long hot bath to relax her.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> How 'bout bike shorts?


not quite the same effect but it might work.


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## TouchDown (Jul 16, 2009)

It's not a girl answering, but coming from a similar place...

Keep in mind that just like you said in another thread about "loss of independence" with a baby in the house. Combine that with the "I'm a Mom now" factor and multiply that by everything else going on that you will never have time to complete pile... It's difficult to keep up on a relationship.

But, as others can probably attest - you have to be able to find perspective that your relationship is as important to mini-Buff as mini-Buff's needs. If this is your "only" issue, then (although probably an uncomfortable conversation/argument) discuss how you feel (girls like that I hear).

Mary's right - studies have shown that "chore-play" is the new thing, where if a guy will help to take stress off the wife, it CAN end up being a good thing all around.

Again, do you have any "couple's" celebration coming up? Anniversary? Any damn excuse to spend some time just together? Time together is essential to remember that your relationship is just as important as family needs.

If you are like me and you just go around being pissy because you haven't been laid in 10 weeks... well, that doesn't seem to excite the wife into jumping into bed with you.

OR. You could just give up now, your sex drive will fall off in another 10 years and you will be beat down and won't give a shit anymore... j/k (sort of).


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Along similar lines to TD's response, Mrs. Buff figured out what caused mini-Buff and doesn't ever want to do that again.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Our anniversary is on Tuesday. Both she and I will be in Denver, but due to some extenuating circumstances, so will mini-Buff. We don't get much time together alone.

I meant this more as a general question to the ladies, what affects your drive? Not a pity/whiney party for me.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> Along similar lines to TD's response, Mrs. Buff figured out what caused mini-Buff and doesn't ever want to do that again.


Well played, wil. Well played.


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## Guest (Jul 16, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> the dude should be in the process of getting hitched or on the honeymoon by now.


I believe that is a correct answer.

JR


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> I meant this more as a general question to the ladies, what affects your drive?


If I am in the situation where I have a lot of things I'm responsible for ... I get to obsessing over all that stuff and I forget all about 'marital relations'.

One thing about wimmins, their sex drive is connected to their feelings about themselves - when they feel good about themselves, and feel rested and emotionally "full", they feel like giving back emotionally which includes expressing love sexually. If a woman feels all frazzled out and emotionally drained then sex turns into "one more thing I have to do", kind of like another chore.

I also think that ladies don't like to ever feel taken for granted, but that is true for men too. The thing is, if you hurt a man's feelings he might still have sex with you. If you hurt a woman's feelings, she won't. I think a woman feels more vulnerable in the sexual act itself; so it's like "I'm not going to open myself up to you because you hurt me" or "took me for granted" or whatever.

What would make all this easier to understand would be for women to be encouraged/taught to express this stuff clearly, instead of being taught to be coy and to soften their requests with a bunch of flowery language. You have to tell a guy straight up what your concern is. Men don't want to listen to a bunch of blah blah blah.

In my experience, anyway.

:2cents:


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## TouchDown (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Our anniversary is on Tuesday. Both she and I will be in Denver, but due to some extenuating circumstances, so will mini-Buff. *We don't get much time together alone.*
> I meant this more as a general question to the ladies, what affects your drive? Not a pity/whiney party for me.


Sorry dude, sounds like things with the Anniversary aren't going "according to plan".

So, girls FL sounds desperate, what say ye?

Sounds like Snick's drive is closely related to banana hammocks, or plum smugglers, anything to accentuate your junk.


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## TouchDown (Jul 16, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> If I am in the situation where I have a lot of things I'm responsible for ... I get to obsessing over all that stuff and I forget all about 'marital relations'.
> One thing about wimmins, their sex drive is connected to their feelings about themselves - when they feel good about themselves, and feel rested and emotionally "full", they feel like giving back emotionally which includes expressing love sexually. If a woman feels all frazzled out and emotionally drained then sex turns into "one more thing I have to do", kind of like another chore.
> 
> In my experience, anyway.
> ...


Are you my wife? h34r:


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## klk (Jul 16, 2009)

I apologize for not remembering how old mini-Buff is, but could she be affected by a change in hormone levels with respect to having a baby? I've never given birth so I can't say how that affects hormone levels, but I do know that changes in hormone levels (whether synthetic or natural) can have a huge impact on the drive. Yes, I can imagine stress and lack of alone time are also factors, so if nothing changes after the stress is reduced and alone time is acheived, then there might be underlying issues to consider.

I've also heard/read that women who give birth have a "changed perspective" of their bodies (especially after breast feeding), and in some cases feel "less attractive" than they used to be, no matter what their guy may be telling them. You might try increasing how many times you compliment her looks and give her positive feedback in case her "real" reason is related to body image insecurities. Many women, no matter how beautiful, always notice the flaws that they think makes them ugly. Maybe some of the women here who have given birth can give some their opinion on this.

The other things Fluvial said are factors too.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> Sorry dude, sounds like things with the Anniversary aren't going "according to plan".
> So, girls FL sounds desperate, what say ye?
> 
> Sounds like Snick's drive is closely related to banana hammocks, or plum smugglers, anything to accentuate your junk.


More resigned to my fate than anything else.


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

klk said:


> Maybe some of the women here who have given birth can give some their opinion on this.


I think you are spot-on with both of your points.


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## Ble_PE (Jul 16, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> Sounds like Snick's drive is closely related to banana hammocks, or plum smugglers, anything to accentuate your junk.


As long as it smells good.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

klk said:


> I apologize for not remembering how old mini-Buff is, but could she be affected by a change in hormone levels with respect to having a baby? I've never given birth so I can't say how that affects hormone levels, but I do know that changes in hormone levels (whether synthetic or natural) can have a huge impact on the drive. Yes, I can imagine stress and lack of alone time are also factors, so if nothing changes after the stress is reduced and alone time is acheived, then there might be underlying issues to consider.
> I've also heard/read that women who give birth have a "changed perspective" of their bodies (especially after breast feeding), and in some cases feel "less attractive" than they used to be, no matter what their guy may be telling them. You might try increasing how many times you compliment her looks and give her positive feedback in case her "real" reason is related to body image insecurities. Many women, no matter how beautiful, always notice the flaws that they think makes them ugly. Maybe some of the women here who have given birth can give some their opinion on this.
> 
> The other things Fluvial said are factors too.


No worries, klk. Mini-Buff is ~1.5 years old.



Fluvial said:


> I think you are spot-on with both of your points.


Thanks for the discussions and taking me seriously (which is how I meant it).


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## TouchDown (Jul 16, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Thanks for the discussions and taking me seriously (which is how I meant it).


In all seriousness... other things that haven't been mentioned:

1. birth control pills (- sex drive)

2. Other medications, ie. anti-depressants (- sex drive)

3. Health problems, ie. herniated disc in back or just being sick MORE because you have a kid now (- sex drive)

I've asked my wife to approach her doctor about "counteracting" the drugs / etc. and she's too embarassed to ask if there are drugs available to "boost" her drive. But, I'm sure there may be options there as well if you're dealing with a medical / medication side effect.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 16, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> In all seriousness... other things that haven't been mentioned:1. birth control pills (- sex drive)
> 
> 2. Other medications, ie. anti-depressants (- sex drive)
> 
> ...


#1 is a posibility. Mrs. Buff asked her OBGYN about it (at my request), and the OBGYN said it's likely just stress. Which never seems to ease.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 16, 2009)

sorry i can't be of more help flbuff...every women's tastes are a bit different. I wouldn't give up trying.


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

How old is the mini-Buff? The first two to three years with a child seem to keep moms in a frazzled state. Not that later years are easier, just that the mom has gotten her 'sea legs' by then.

Oh, and you're welcome. I could tell it wasn't just a juvenile question like the boobs one.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 16, 2009)

Fluvial said:


> How old is the mini-Buff?





FLBuff PE said:


> Mini-Buff is ~1.5 years old.


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## Dleg (Jul 16, 2009)

I like this thread.

I've had an interesting work history with women. My first job was in the oil field, and almost immediately after finishing the 6-month training period, I was given a brand-new female engineer to train. She was a tough girl and wanted to show everyone how tough she was. There were very, very few women in the oil field at that time (1991 - and probably hasn't changed). We got along very well and remained friends outside work as well, and she even dated one of my roommates for a while. (I lost track of her though and have no idea how she turned out). As far as the way she fit in to the work environment, she was one of those who seemed to want to try very hard to show the men that she could do anything they could, but the problem was that us men engineers didn't have to do all the things the regular crew did, and she ended up kind of insulting the crew by taking away some of their work, and then also occasionally messing up the engineer's job by spending too much time on the stuff the crew could have been doing, and neglecting the stuff the engineer needed to be doing. So, IMO, she ended up hurting herself by trying too hard.

She eventually burned out and quit, like 99% of the engineers there, but she just burned out a little faster. To us men, there was never any doubt she was a hard worker and could do the job. So she kind of messed up by over-compensating. And, I have to say, the vast majority of men we worked with treated her exactly the same as the male engineers. The only bad treatment she would get was from the rig hands, but they didn't work for the company, and it was somewhat expected, and it never got out of hand because her crew was always there.

After that, I worked at an A&amp;E firm out here and got to see another situation - our architect was a former Dallas Cowboys cheerleader. Drop-dead gorgeous. I think the A&amp;E office is a far worse place than the oil field when it comes to the treatment of women - it seemed like half the guys in that office were always over "chatting" at her cubicle. But she handled it well - that didn't last very long after she made it clear that she had no interest in anyone and needed to work. She ultimately married one of the younger engineers in the office, but you would have never know they had anything going on between each other. It was very covert. But once it was out in the open, her troubles at the office were over.

On the other hand, I worked in a field office for that firm, and had a local secretary who was one of the most fun women I ever worked with. She didn't work very much, but she was hilarious and knew how to "command" if you know what I mean. The other engiener I worked with on the project would always tease her about stuff, and sometimes she would get genuinely mad and then throw stuff at him. Beaned him in the head with a stapler once. But it was a very family-like atmosphere in that office, and we are all still friends today.

Working in the environmental field has been totally different. It seems like there are a lot more female professionals in the environmental world than any other technical profession I am familiar with. I rarely see any discrepancies in the way women are treated (beyond the local islander culture that is, which is very chauvinistic). And because of that, all the female professionals I work with seem to be very much at ease, and I don't sense any "gender issues" at all, except for the occasional young, freshly-graduated environmental professional. I've run into a few of them that seem like they're tryingt o hard to impress, but that goes for both genders, to be honest.

Me, I am a perfectly modern male and have never offended any woman I have ever worked with. 

:BS:

But I do try. (and I married a co-worker - so my workplace flirting succeeded at least once)


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## Fluvial (Jul 16, 2009)

Nice boobys, Dleg.

Oh, and great post too.


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## MA_PE (Jul 16, 2009)

I came across this and I immediately thought of the bra discussion here:


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 17, 2009)

Who doesn't like tower cranes?


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 17, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Who doesn't like tower cranes?


It's the national bird of Hong Kong.


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## Supe (Jul 17, 2009)

I'm not sure large birds would be particularly effective on this jobsite. Though I would love to see thousands of birds flapping to bring the turbine up to the tabletop when the time comes.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 17, 2009)

wilheldp_PE said:


> It's the national bird of Hong Kong.


I have to remember that one.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 17, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I have to remember that one.


Actually, I screwed that up. They don't use tower cranes in Hong Kong. They use bamboo scaffolding. It's crazy to see that stuff built up to over 100 stories.

That joke came from Chicago or NYC or something.


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 20, 2009)

Dleg said:


> I like this thread.


Me too!



Dleg said:


> .... in the oil field, and almost immediately after finishing the 6-month training period, I was given a brand-new female engineer to train. She was a tough girl and wanted to show everyone how tough she was. There were very, very few women in the oil field at that time (1991 - and probably hasn't changed)....and she ended up kind of insulting the crew by taking away some of their work, and then also occasionally messing up the engineer's job by spending too much time on the stuff the crew could have been doing, and neglecting the stuff the engineer needed to be doing. So, IMO, she ended up hurting herself by trying too hard.


I knew a woman engineer who went to that work environment in Texas in the early 80's. She was asian (rare) and a woman (unheard of) and found the good ol' boys appreciated originals and mavericks and just gave her her own category in their own minds....she did great and had lots of fun. If she had ever crossed paths with your former coworker, they might have compared notes....to your coworker's benefit.



Dleg said:


> I think the A&amp;E office is a far worse place than the oil field when it comes to the treatment of women.


I think largely you get what you expect...but on the other hand, a lack of other women (or short stays) is usually a bad sign. Being too sensitive loses you the discretionary information and friendly tips that adds up to something significant. Someone I work with now goes in for the kill and reports to the boss whenever someone slips up a little (sticking up for herself!)....and as a result, many people choose not to give her "heads up" or extra info and she feels like "people just don't like me".....If she'd just chill a little I think she'd enjoy work much more.



Dleg said:


> I don't sense any "gender issues" at all, except for the occasional young, freshly-graduated environmental professional. I've run into a few of them that seem like they're tryingt o hard to impress, but that goes for both genders, to be honest.


I caused a stink a few years ago when I attended a student professional society meeting and later followed up with their faculty advisor. I let the advisor know that I found I was behaving differently toward the women that attended and were dressed either in revealing (in-style show the belly) clothing or looked like they were going to a party, with cleavage or clubbing clothes. I discounted them and didn't make any effort to connect professionally--treated them as if they were there for the food or to be dates, not to network. I realized how I'd behaved later and asked around to see if my reaction was unique - and it wasn't. After the event, I attempted to point out through their advisor that they should know what reaction they were sending to people who were no longer college students and to consider if they were OK with that. (I didn't tell them how to dress....) What really struck me was that all the males hit the exact right note and conveyed they were serious about careers by what they choose to wear. I didn't want the females to miss out just cause they didn't know any better.



Dleg said:


> But I do try. (and I married a co-worker - so my workplace flirting succeeded at least once)


Good going!


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## Wolverine (Jul 21, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> I caused a stink a few years ago when I attended a student professional society meeting and later followed up with their faculty advisor. I let the advisor know that I found I was behaving differently toward the women that attended and were dressed either in revealing (in-style show the belly) clothing or looked like they were going to a party, with cleavage or clubbing clothes. I discounted them and didn't make any effort to connect professionally--treated them as if they were there for the food or to be dates, not to network. I realized how I'd behaved later and asked around to see if my reaction was unique - and it wasn't. After the event, I attempted to point out through their advisor that they should know what reaction they were sending to people who were no longer college students and to consider if they were OK with that. (I didn't tell them how to dress....) What really struck me was that all the males hit the exact right note and conveyed they were serious about careers by what they choose to wear. I didn't want the females to miss out just cause they didn't know any better.


So you're saying I shouldn't wear my bike shorts to IEEE meetings anymore?


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## Supe (Jul 21, 2009)

I don't think you should wear them anywhere.


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## Fluvial (Jul 21, 2009)

^^ Party pooper !!


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## Guest (Jul 21, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> Who doesn't like tower cranes?


Hmmm ... I am wondering about the rating.

Also, wouldn't it be more appropriate to have a stacker crane rather than a tower crane for this case?

JR


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## Chucktown PE (Jul 30, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> More resigned to my fate than anything else.



Sorry I missed this FLBuff. As most of you know I was in the doldrums for a while in this department. I found a few things helped.

1. Planned some alone time for us. We had a romantic weekend away together, date nights, etc. We couldn't really afford it but we needed it. This is probably wrong but I looked at it as being a LOT cheaper than a divorce. Not to say we would have gotten a divorce had I not done those things but occasionally we need to "invest" in our marriage.

2. I found out she wan't feeling to good about herself. Her body shape changed a little after our 2nd was born and even though she lost all the baby weight she didn't feel young and hot any more. I still think she looks great and the occasional well placed compliment seemed to give her a lot more confidence.

3. We got into a rut of putting the kids to bed and both flopping down in the living room to watch TV. We would talk very little, I would fall asleep in the chair and she would fall asleep on the couch and we would wake up at 11:30, get in the bed and the next interaction we had would be in the morning when I was getting ready for work and the kids were awake. This is a constant struggle because after a long day at work I need some down time but now we try to go for a walk after dinner with the kids (and we get some time to dialogue) or we go sit on the back porch and talk without the TV. I found that a couple of nights of this really make our relationship better and that leads to “fringe benefits”.

4. My wife likes back rubs. But she doesn’t like them if she knows she is going to have to put out every time she gets one. So I try to surprise her every now and again. She’s usually in the mood after one anyway but if not I’ve earned brownie points so win-win.

5. Occasionally I'll suprise her by cooking a nice romantic meal on Friday or Saturday night after the kids go to bed or start the bath tub up and suprise her with some champagne. Sort of a date night for after the kids are in bed. Those both tend to make her very happy. And the occasional bouquet of flowers that I pick up on the way home does the same.

I’m certainly no expert but the main thing I am learning is that sex shouldn’t be the goal. Having a healthy relationship is the goal and the sex will follow. I probably lost my man card in all this but I will say that our sex life has gotten much better. Some of it was due to some of the advice I got here.


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## frazil (Jul 30, 2009)

Chucktown - could you talk to my husband??


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## Chucktown PE (Jul 30, 2009)

frazil said:


> Chucktown - could you talk to my husband??



You know that brings up another point, I think a lot of these issues get swept under the rug and I'm not sure why. The woman often keeps these feeling to herself when if she'd just say, "It would really make me feel good if you did ......" instead of hoping by chance that the man will jump through hoops x, a, c, y, r, t, and o in that particular order (which almost never happens).

I finally got frustrated enough where I made my wife tell me, and even then she gave me a couple of clues and insights in to what was going on. Even then, most of it I had to figure out on my own.


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## Road Guy (Jul 30, 2009)

I think your man card is safe, you didnt mention scrapbooking!

probably pretty good points to be honest, summer has been great without all the... get up, throw kids on bus, run to work, pick kids up, run to baseball,scouts, etc, rush home eat, baths, etc, etc, etc, I am really dreading next week when school starts because it has been fairly relaxing and has helped our relationship by not having all the hustle and bustle


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## klk (Jul 30, 2009)

Chucktown, your previous points are right on target. You seem to grasp what so many men don't get.



Chucktown PE said:


> You know that brings up another point, I think a lot of these issues get swept under the rug and I'm not sure why. The woman often keeps these feeling to herself when if she'd just say, "It would really make me feel good if you did ......" instead of hoping by chance that the man will jump through hoops x, a, c, y, r, t, and o in that particular order (which almost never happens).
> I finally got frustrated enough where I made my wife tell me, and even then she gave me a couple of clues and insights in to what was going on. Even then, most of it I had to figure out on my own.


However, I disagree with the notion that a woman has to come out and say exactly what they/we want. Doing things unexpectedly and without being asked makes you seem considerate and caring to her needs (back rubs, romantic dinners, bubble baths, etc), so she's more likely to be considerate and caring to your needs (sex). If we had to tell you to do those things to make us happy, then it makes it look like all you care about is your needs (sex). When you tell a woman that your needs aren't being met, yes we feel bad, but our needs still aren't being met and it makes it look like all you care about is you.

Lets treat it like a points system, and while you might get 1 point for doing something when specifically asked, you get bonus points (lets say 3 points) for doing them without specifically being asked to do it, but she had to drop several hints to get you to see she wanted it. Then, you get super duper bonus points when you do something for her when it's least expected and a total surpise. Then, lets say it takes a certain number of points to get the woman to have sex (the number of points required depends on the woman, her mood, her self image, etc which can be positively/negatively changed depending on the man's actions). Once you have sex, the points drop down to zero and you start over. The more often you perform random acts of kindness towards your wife, the more often she will want to reciprocate.

I fully admit I think its irrational for us to expect you to read our minds and know what we want, but we can't help it if its the way we feel (for most women, sex is directly tied to feelings). On the other hand, it seems like guys knew what to do when dating a girl to get them into bed (I'll call it "courting"), but those actions stop once you say "I do" because the husband thinks that he "deserves" sex anytime since he's now married. Funny how the sex stops once the courting stops . . .


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## TouchDown (Jul 30, 2009)

klk said:


> Lets treat it like a points system, and while you might get 1 point for doing something when specifically asked, you get bonus points (lets say 3 points) for doing them without specifically being asked to do it, but she had to drop several hints to get you to see she wanted it. Then, you get super duper bonus points when you do something for her when it's least expected and a total surpise. Then, lets say it takes a certain number of points to get the woman to have sex (the number of points required depends on the woman, her mood, her self image, etc which can be positively/negatively changed depending on the man's actions). Once you have sex, the points drop down to zero and you start over. The more often you perform random acts of kindness towards your wife, the more often she will want to reciprocate.
> I fully admit I think its irrational for us to expect you to read our minds and know what we want, but we can't help it if its the way we feel (for most women, sex is directly tied to feelings). On the other hand, it seems like guys knew what to do when dating a girl to get them into bed (I'll call it "courting"), but those actions stop once you say "I do" because the husband thinks that he "deserves" sex anytime since he's now married. Funny how the sex stops once the courting stops . . .


Chuck / klk - you're right that doing nice/caring things for one another (and it goes both ways) is important in keeping the fire going, but I'm a guy - I'm going to tell you what I think... no beatin' around the bush (so to speak). I'm sure if you read my earlier post, you can tell that this is a sore subject. Every individual is complex and everyone has their own history which feeds into thoughts and feelings about how a relationship should be handled.

I understand klk where you're coming from... but, knowing that someone is "keeping score", ie. points, is pretty rediculous. If sex has anything to do with feelings like you say most women feel (and I happen to think it's a more emotional experience than my wife), then there wouldn't be an "if you do this... then you get that". I consider that just as one sided and selfish as a person who's "just in it for the sex" - a person who's "just in it only if they get x,y,and z and keeping score in their head.

If you're in a loving and caring relationship all that good stuff that makes a marriage work (doing nice and caring things for each other) should come naturally, but with effort (believe me I understand there is effort required). Agreed, ruts can occur, but give me a break - points system. I think your points description is an oversimplification of a very complex relationship that for each couple is a little different. Points. That kind of pisses me off. The purpose of a trusting and loving relationship is to have the ability to not keep score, and love each other despite your faults.

Maybe it was just a bad example of describing how important that being thoughtful to your spouse is... from that standpoint, the lack of a satisfying sexual relationship can just be an indication of real problems that couples need to discuss openly and freely and talk about how they may be feeling underappreciated, etc. If you can't talk with each other about these things, then get someone to mediate, like a therapist, who can help you work through issues.

Fact is, if you are with this person forever, that looks fade, bodies falter, life is short and when it comes down to it, sex may be "important", but if it's the foundation of a relationship - then that marriage won't get far.


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## Fluvial (Jul 30, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> I understand klk where you're coming from... but, knowing that someone is "keeping score", ie. points, is pretty rediculous. If sex has anything to do with feelings like you say most women feel (and I happen to think it's a more emotional experience than my wife), then there wouldn't be an "if you do this... then you get that". I consider that just as one sided and selfish as a person who's "just in it for the sex" - a person who's "just in it only if they get x,y,and z and keeping score in their head.
> If you're in a loving and caring relationship all that good stuff that makes a marriage work (doing nice and caring things for each other) should come naturally, but with effort (believe me I understand there is effort required). Agreed, ruts can occur, but give me a break - points system. I think your points description is an oversimplification of a very complex relationship that for each couple is a little different. Points. That kind of pisses me off. The purpose of a trusting and loving relationship is to have the ability to not keep score, and love each other despite your faults.
> 
> Maybe it was just a bad example of describing how important that being thoughtful to your spouse is...


Although I've known some people who actually *do* seem to keep track of 'points', the way I read klk's post, she was just using it as an example. Perhaps a better way to put it would be a 'good will' bank, 'cause what each partner is doing (when they are being considerate and supporting each other) is creating a warm fuzzy feeling in the other one. Those good feelings, if kept alive by frequent positive interactions, build up into a 'good will' bank. That keeps each partner looking at the other in a positive light; keeps the woman feeling 'wanted' and keeps her wanting to be 'close' to her husband; and therefore is conducive to a good sex life.

That knife cuts both ways; in a perfect world, the woman should be supporting/encouraging her husband too. One of the things I've learned over time is to try to keep an upbeat attitude about my hubby. That is, to think of his pluses rather than his minuses. If you start thinking negative things about the other person, soon you will convince yourself that he's not lovable.

Another thing is to communicate about it; like Chuck describes, he was sucessful in getting his wife to tell him about her needs. If one partner is uncommunicative, the other may think 'he/she doesn't care'. Or if one partner isn't getting their needs met, they may tell themselves "well I don't care about that'. And one day they wake up and find out 'I don't care' has come true - they no longer care about the marriage.


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## Dleg (Jul 31, 2009)

I got kind of worked up about the points thing, too, when I first read it. After my experiences with a few girlfriends in the mainland, the whole "keeping score" thing seemed to me to have somehow become institutionalized among American women as a perfectly acceptable rationalization of selfishness.

But then I re-read klk's post and I think she was just trying to explain it in a way that made engineering sense. Even with more evenly-tempered Asian and Pacific Islander women, like my wife, it still goes a long way to do the things klk suggests. Point system or not. I just happen to also get the benefits of having the same treatment in reverse, on a much more regular basis... :eyebrows:


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## klk (Jul 31, 2009)

^Thanks Fluvial for stating what I meant in a much more eloquent manner. A good will bank is a much better example. I was just trying to demonstrate with an example that being considerate and doing nice things for your wife without being asked is likely a better approach than constantly asking why you never have sex anymore and what can be done about it. I didn't mean that people should "keep score" literally (although I'm sure there are people who do, and I don't necessary thing that's healthy either), but was trying to explain why it's usually not as simple to expect a woman to tell her man what she wants, because it doesn't really "fill" the goodwill bank in the same way or as fast as it would if the husband just did nice, considerate things once in a while without being asked. While I think communication is definitely important, I don't think many women are willing to actually discuss their needs in terms of what will increase the sex life in their marriage. I think Chucktown's suggestions are great ideas for men to implement if their wives are either making excuses or not communicating at all with respect to this issue.


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## MGX (Jul 31, 2009)

I don't mind the points system. If she remembers everything I've ever done wrong, I can keep track of all the right things I've done!

Besides I think we're all trained to spot patterns; the points make logical sense.


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## Supe (Jul 31, 2009)

I'd just like to thank everyone in this thread for reminding me why I have no desire to ever get married. I'm terrible at math!


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## Katiebug (Jul 31, 2009)

klk said:


> ^Thanks Fluvial for stating what I meant in a much more eloquent manner. A good will bank is a much better example. I was just trying to demonstrate with an example that being considerate and doing nice things for your wife without being asked is likely a better approach than constantly asking why you never have sex anymore and what can be done about it. I didn't mean that people should "keep score" literally (although I'm sure there are people who do, and I don't necessary thing that's healthy either), but was trying to explain why it's usually not as simple to expect a woman to tell her man what she wants, because it doesn't really "fill" the goodwill bank in the same way or as fast as it would if the husband just did nice, considerate things once in a while without being asked. While I think communication is definitely important, I don't think many women are willing to actually discuss their needs in terms of what will increase the sex life in their marriage. I think Chucktown's suggestions are great ideas for men to implement if their wives are either making excuses or not communicating at all with respect to this issue.


The concept of a good will bank is really an accurate one, IMO.

Stress does crazy things to a woman's libido. I'll be honest - when Mr. Bug was laid off for 9 months, it did NOT help matters in that department at all. Stress over finances (being the sole provider) and over his job hunt made me very uninterested. He could clean the house and mow the lawn and all of that, and it didn't freaking matter. Yet when he started working again, things started getting better in the libido department, despite him being gone more often. I'm not stressed out anymore over being the sole provider, and that stress reduction has made a big difference in our intimacy.

I haven't had a baby yet, but my friends who have say that it's tough to go straight from being someone's mom to being someone's lover. It doesn't always work to put the baby down for the night and then go get your groove on 10 minutes later - especially with dirty dishes in the sink, laundry to do, and lunches to get ready for work the next day. I don't know if Mrs. Buff works outside the home or not, but if she does those pressures of just getting through the day are probably even more of a factor.

I wouldn't overlook the impact of hormonal birth control. I know that Mrs. Buff's OBGYN said it wasn't likely, but depending on the woman and the specific BC in question, it really can cause problems. I was on the Pill for years and was fine, then switched to the patch and all of a sudden had zero interest. It wasn't until I went off hormonal birth control completely that things began to improve in that department. My previous GYN said that she didn't believe in that because SHE had never experienced a loss of libido on hormonal BC, but it was pretty much like night and day to me, and I suspect her motive was to get me on that Mirena IUD (getting more $$$ out of my insurance company in the process). My new OBGYN (a male doctor) said that it's very possible to have a certain type of hormonal birth control that diminishes libido and many of his patients have described just that phenomenon.

Mr. Bug knows that "Acts of Service" is a primary love language for me (this is from the book The Five Love Languages). I love it when he chooses to do something nice or helpful without my having to ask. Nothing will make me happier than if he comes home with a bouquet of flowers, or if I get home from work and discover that he cleaned both bathrooms and vacuumed the living room before he left for work. At the same time, Mr. Bug's primary love language is "Words of Affirmation" - he needs for me to tell him how I feel and to appreciate his efforts. If he kept doing nice, helpful things and I never thanked him for his hard work, he wouldn't feel rewarded. At the same time, words of affirmation don't do much for me, just as acts of service don't do much for him. So we make an effort to fill the other's good will bank in the other's "currency", if you will. It's not at all unusual for the two halves of a couple to have totally different "currency" when it comes to the good will bank. You can be an awesome spouse and do your best and still not be banking where it counts.


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## Chucktown PE (Jul 31, 2009)

Supe said:


> I'd just like to thank everyone in this thread for reminding me why I have no desire to ever get married. I'm terrible at math!


You're welcome



Katiebug said:


> The concept of a good will bank is really an accurate one, IMO.


Agreed. I think Steven Covey calls it emotional debits/credits.



Katiebug said:


> I haven't had a baby yet, but my friends who have say that it's tough to go straight from being someone's mom to being someone's lover. It doesn't always work to put the baby down for the night and then go get your groove on 10 minutes later - especially with dirty dishes in the sink, laundry to do, and lunches to get ready for work the next day. I don't know if Mrs. Buff works outside the home or not, but if she does those pressures of just getting through the day are probably even more of a factor.


Mrs. Chucktown often says this. She needs time after the kids go to bed to just be by herself for a little while because she's had 2 kids crawling all over her all day long.



Katiebug said:


> I wouldn't overlook the impact of hormonal birth control. I know that Mrs. Buff's OBGYN said it wasn't likely, but depending on the woman and the specific BC in question, it really can cause problems. I was on the Pill for years and was fine, then switched to the patch and all of a sudden had zero interest. It wasn't until I went off hormonal birth control completely that things began to improve in that department. My previous GYN said that she didn't believe in that because SHE had never experienced a loss of libido on hormonal BC, but it was pretty much like night and day to me, and I suspect her motive was to get me on that Mirena IUD (getting more $$$ out of my insurance company in the process). My new OBGYN (a male doctor) said that it's very possible to have a certain type of hormonal birth control that diminishes libido and many of his patients have described just that phenomenon.


The pill had a huge effect on Mrs. Chucktown's libido. She quit using it and we used other methods, now we have two kids. She is on the Mirena IUD now and loves it. I wish I could buy stock in Bayer.



Katiebug said:


> Mr. Bug knows that "Acts of Service" is a primary love language for me (this is from the book The Five Love Languages). I love it when he chooses to do something nice or helpful without my having to ask. Nothing will make me happier than if he comes home with a bouquet of flowers, or if I get home from work and discover that he cleaned both bathrooms and vacuumed the living room before he left for work. At the same time, Mr. Bug's primary love language is "Words of Affirmation" - he needs for me to tell him how I feel and to appreciate his efforts. If he kept doing nice, helpful things and I never thanked him for his hard work, he wouldn't feel rewarded. At the same time, words of affirmation don't do much for me, just as acts of service don't do much for him. So we make an effort to fill the other's good will bank in the other's "currency", if you will. It's not at all unusual for the two halves of a couple to have totally different "currency" when it comes to the good will bank. You can be an awesome spouse and do your best and still not be banking where it counts.


What all women have to understand is that sex is all mens' love language.


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## maryannette (Jul 31, 2009)

I think a good marriage requires more than 50 - 50 from each partner. A successful relationship happens when each is willing to give more than 50% AND give up more than 50%.


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## OSUguy98 (Jul 31, 2009)

Katiebug said:


> You can be an awesome spouse and do your best and still not be banking where it counts.


I think this is where alot of issues pop up (at least in my marriage)...

back story/info.... I work 7:30-4 everyday, 30-40mins from home... She watches her cousin's little one (she'll be 4 in Sept.) at odd hours (recently, it's 10am-8:30pm, Sun, Mon, Wed, Thurs, Fri) and a friend's little boy (~18 months) for 4 or 6 hours on Mon-Thurs (9-3 or 12-4, depending on the day)... She gets almost no money for watching her cousin's little one ($5 a day), and gets paid a decent amount for watching the little boy ($120 a week, currently)...

the short version.....

We decided to take on a few projects this spring, and we all know that one thing leads to another and more often than not (esp. with a 50 yr old house), it leads to alot more... We wanted new (2) toilets... We wanted/needed new exterior doors, the old ones were the originals and they were warped or bowed or drafty or all 3.... We wanted to remove the 70s paneling in the living room...

The toilet installs went well, at least as well as you can hope... Every project takes longer than you want it to....

While the door were on order, we took on the paneling in the LR... because of the glue used, that quickly became a re-drywall the LR project.... which meant new crown molding, and a new mantle, etc... we got all that done, short of the mantle and I still have to fill the nail holes in the crown....

The doors were installed over the course of 3 weekends.... we ran new wire for the Door bells during each door's removal... the new storm doors followed shortly after each door was installed... minor things still need to be done (painting the new thresholds, and I still have to seal around the brick mold and the brick on one door)...

Then came replacement of the leaky/leaking outside faucets... which required installing shutoff valves where applicable... and new copper to replace a leak discovered (tiny tiny hole, not sure the cause... it's an old leak because of the green scaling,etc around it... I think I disturbed the plug made by the patina....)

Then there's the new door knobs to make the rest of the house match the new doors.... which requires drilling the hole in every door to the current std.... and chiseling, to make the strike plate fit... etc... etc...

Not to mention helping her dad gut and remodel their cabin along the river..... and me helping the secretary at work remodel her bathroom (mainly for extra money to fund the above listed projects)

But anyway, you guys get the idea... I haven't stopped since... well... February....

I took Tuesday off to stay home and spend time with my wife... and since we only had to babysit one kid (12-4... so it's play, feed, nap, snack, play, go home), I figured it was a good day to relax, tackle a door knob replacement or two... and generally, just spend some time with the wife...

We slept in a bit, 8ish... after we ate, she asked what the plan was, so I told her what I had in my head... she wanted the faucet outside replaced, and I can take care of the door knobs anytime since they "only take, what, like 5 min to replace?"... so I start working on the faucet.... the old one comes out easy enough, but the new frost-free ones are a bit bigger than the 1/2" copper pipe.... so 2 hours into it, I'm chipping away at brick and mortar trying to make a hole big enough to fit the new faucet... needless to say, most of the day was spent working on that faucet (and fixing the small leak in the supply line I talked about earlier)...

During the baby's nap, my wife was tired and wanted to lay down.... so I got cleaned up, and went to lay down with her... as I'm crawling into bed, she mentions the warranty claim we still hadn't made with the storm door company (defective screen) and the Sears issue we had while shopping on Sat..... So I go call Sears... an hour later, she wakes up... we work on getting the pics/info/etc for the storm door claim done, and then the baby wakes up... his parents come and get him... I go back to plumbing/etc... well, after a run for parts to fix the leak.... 8:30 rolls around and I haven't really stopped all day, and I finally finish everything in the basement and get things cleaned up (for the most part).... I head upstairs and get cleaned up again... we start watching TV/etc and she says "we never spend time together anymore".... which turned into "we're always working on the house"... which turned into "well you still haven't fixed this this this and that"...

So how do you balance the "This has to get fixed" and the "We want to replace/redo/etc this" and still stay sane? And moreover, how in the world do you keep your wife happy if the "honey-do" list never... ever... ends and she has the "oh, you finished this.... can we work on this now" mentality?

sorry for the long almost-rant-like post.....


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## snickerd3 (Jul 31, 2009)

OSU - The hubby and I tackle the home improvement/repairs as a team...we both do the work and get to spend time together. More limited now that I can't do heavy lifting stuff, but when we first started improvements in this house, we removed/replaced the drywall together. He plastered it while I primed and painted the rest of the house. I was the one in the attic rewiring light fixtures while the hubby was working in the rooms working on the outlets. I hold trim/doorways while he hammers or uses the nail gun...things like that.


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## OSUguy98 (Jul 31, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> OSU - The hubby and I tackle the home improvement/repairs as a team...we both do the work and get to spend time together. More limited now that I can't do heavy lifting stuff, but when we first started improvements in this house, we removed/replaced the drywall together. He plastered it while I primed and painted the rest of the house. I was the one in the attic rewiring light fixtures while the hubby was working in the rooms working on the outlets. I hold trim/doorways while he hammers or uses the nail gun...things like that.


Yup, that's that way it had been for the last 2-2.5 years, but this spring she's turned into a sit and watch type... claiming she can't help me with this stuff (lack of self confidence, a general theme)... and some of that's true.... I'd never installed a toilet before... or a door... or a storm door.... And since I've been fumbling through the last few projects with limited experience (or none), she's basically taken the role of gopher... She helps, but not like she used to.... I think we're both just burnt out...


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## maryannette (Jul 31, 2009)

It sounds like you need a break, OSU. Can you get away for a weekend - important to get away because the house is part of the problem. Or, just a day-trip spending time together. Or, when you need something for a project, go together and stop for a bite to eat. We did a lot of projects and are planning more in the next year, so I can relate. Sometimes life gets in the way of love, but it shouldn't. Tell your wife you need a break.


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## Santiagj (Jul 31, 2009)

OSU I see what you are coming from. Me and the wife tackle projects together. She helps me out alot. But I would be very frustrated if I did not get any help and my to do list got infinitely longer. Right now I am working on finishing a basement. Last weekend I put in a rough in for a full bath and now I'm onto the framing. The one thing that I get agrivated with is that my wife volunteers me to help with her family's projects. For example, we are finishing a basement now and at the same time I am helping my SIL build a deck. My SIL and BIL are not the do it yourself type so I wind up doing most of the work. So it feels like I have no time to just take a break. I do enjoy building things and breaking things but sometimes I just want to sit down and be a vegetable. I finally told my wife that a few days ago. I just said I needed a break. She was very understanding.


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## frazil (Jul 31, 2009)

OSUguy98 said:


> we start watching TV/etc and she says "we never spend time together anymore".... which turned into "we're always working on the house"... which turned into "well you still haven't fixed this this this and that"...


Sorry, but this made me laugh! so true!


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## TouchDown (Jul 31, 2009)

Santiagj said:


> OSU I see what you are coming from. Me and the wife tackle projects together. She helps me out alot. But I would be very frustrated if I did not get any help and my to do list got infinitely longer. Right now I am working on finishing a basement. Last weekend I put in a rough in for a full bath and now I'm onto the framing. The one thing that I get agrivated with is that my wife volunteers me to help with her family's projects. For example, we are finishing a basement now and at the same time I am helping my SIL build a deck. My SIL and BIL are not the do it yourself type so I wind up doing most of the work. So it feels like I have no time to just take a break. I do enjoy building things and breaking things but sometimes I just want to sit down and be a vegetable. I finally told my wife that a few days ago. I just said I needed a break. She was very understanding.


My wife typically doesn't help me on house projects, not because she can't or hasn't offered... more because, I'm impatient and end up doing things quicker if I'm doing them by myself. She's cool with that, most of the discussion revolves around scheduling and priorities.

I've let her know that in most cases, her priority will be my priority as far as house jobs go - she's the one that's in the house 95% of the time, so she should get the majority of project priority input.

For example - putting up a bulletin board for the kids to have an art area OR cleaning out the garage so I can park inside again... priority = bulletin board

When frost / snow hits, I'll negotiate to accelerate the priority of the garage...


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## squishles10 (Jul 31, 2009)

This will fix your nipple problem from the last page...


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## Santiagj (Jul 31, 2009)

squishles10 said:


> This will fix your nipple problem from the last page...



Why do you get 5 pairs? Are they not re-usable?


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## OSUguy98 (Jul 31, 2009)

frazil said:


> Sorry, but this made me laugh! so true!


It is funny... when you can remove yourself from the situation.... but at that moment.... I don't know of any more of a defeated feeling hearing that..... besides maybe working all day on a project, being tired as hell, and having someone come in to point out the one flaw (usually not of your doing) and completely disregarding all the work you put into it....



TouchDown said:


> My wife typically doesn't help me on house projects, not because she can't or hasn't offered... more because, I'm impatient and end up doing things quicker if I'm doing them by myself. She's cool with that, most of the discussion revolves around scheduling and priorities.
> I've let her know that in most cases, her priority will be my priority as far as house jobs go - she's the one that's in the house 95% of the time, so she should get the majority of project priority input.
> 
> For example - putting up a bulletin board for the kids to have an art area OR cleaning out the garage so I can park inside again... priority = bulletin board
> ...


That's the other problem.... priorities... If you can't agree/compromise/give in/etc, then someone will end up unhappy... being the engineering-minded person that I am, I tend to aim for "do it right the first time", while my wife aims for "but it's cheaper to ____"... Much like the state DOT and say, our governor... so most of our arguments/etc end up being about something she doesn't even register on her priority list, or something she assumes I care nothing about...


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## frazil (Jul 31, 2009)

squishles10 said:


> This will fix your nipple problem from the last page...


I love this site! Here's another product I could use: Cleavage cupcakes


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## TouchDown (Jul 31, 2009)

frazil said:


> I love this site! Here's another product I could use: Cleavage cupcakes


I so am not even tempted to pull up those sites from my work.

Not 'gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.


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## FLBuff PE (Jul 31, 2009)

TouchDown said:


> I so am not even tempted to pull up those sites from my work.
> Not 'gonna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.


SFW. It is a women's apparel website.


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## Chucktown PE (Jul 31, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> SFW. It is a women's apparel website.



Apparently not. It's blocked for me.


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## klk (Jul 31, 2009)

Yeah, I'm not even going to attempt if from work, if victoria's secret website is blocked, I'm sure that one is as well.


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 31, 2009)

OSUguy98 said:


> So how do you balance the "This has to get fixed" and the "We want to replace/redo/etc this" and still stay sane? And moreover, how in the world do you keep your wife happy if the "honey-do" list never... ever... ends and she has the "oh, you finished this.... can we work on this now" mentality?


I think this sort of scene is the default lifestyle if you don't fight against it - HARD. No one likes living that way, but it's really really easy to fall into. And yes, it pretty much eliminates the chance for the kind of intimacy and warm fuzzy feelings you're missing.

A weekend away alone at a place where you can focus on each other is HUGE. Aside from being a great time, the memories from it will give you lots to go on -- a look across the table of screaming kids can bring back that weekend - if you've been there and made that memory. A special scented soap or certain drink or appetizer can zing you right back into that weekend's memories -- and that's never a bad thing.

The other thing to do is schedule time you both agree household concerns are off-limits....maybe even make a fun penalty to levee if someone slips up. (I'm not listing suggestions, but I'm sure someone here is up to the challenge....)

We do lots of renos also -- and although the natural flow isn't to make one room perfect, I find that really helps with the anxiety of living in one big "to do" list. Last summer I spent maybe 20 hours making our main bathroom "perfect for now". I cleaned EVERYTHING like it had never been cleaned before, purged all the old potions and cleaners, got several sets of matching towels (no more "is the company set of towels in the laundry?" panics), got wall art, washed curtains, got a funky bamboo rug, new soap dishes etc. .... everything! Although it was loads of work, and maybe not the most important thing, having one room just the way it should be was really calming....and made the rest of the list matter less.

For the list, maybe post it and have a space for the one top priority....honey dew item? It may also help to keep a running list of everything that gets done -- and taking before/after pics for an album. It's so easy to feel like you're not making progress when you really are humming right along.

Right now, we're trying to come back from a hugely messy house that got that way because neither my husband or I did any housework but some kitchen and bathroom cleaning while I was studying for the PE. (The laundry got done, kids got fed and helped with homework and sometimes the bills got paid.) It was so bad that even though we've been working at it for 3 months now, we haven't hit the big payoff yet -- of a completely calm orderly room. I think we'll get there this weekend -- I can't wait. It's going to make a big difference in my life.

We're planning a getaway soon for our anniversary - every year we switch who makes the plan and I really like that--odd years are mine! (We each get some "big" years....the return to our honeymoon B&amp;B shortly after the second kid's birth was an especially memorable one....so was our 10th anniversary on East Coast blackout night -- we'd planned a free outdoor movie because he was unemployed then, but the blackout led to champagne at home in front of the kids -- but all the right feelings...." All it takes is something you don't normally do --as simple as a game of mini-golf alone to remember why you chose to be together....and continue to do so. Even sitting outside to look at stars with a beer or calling each other when you see a rainbow can do it...

I'd sum up as:

draw a box around home improvements - where and when

and hold a box open - time and place - for quality time together.


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## csb (Jul 31, 2009)

My husband and I are both engineers, so the two of us trying to do any home improvement together is actually a disaster. Too much thinky for one project, too much control, etc. The way we handle things is to get out of the other one's way...one of us will take on the lead for any project and then ask for help if needed. It's helped us a lot to do things separately, because together we just bicker.

And I agree...don't bite off more than you can chew. Set a clear definition for a project and STOP. Don't go the extra mile now, because you don't have the energy to go for it. It will be okay if it's not perfect now and if you can't deal with that, pick smaller projects. No more drywall!


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 31, 2009)

csb said:


> My husband and I are both engineers, so the two of us trying to do any home improvement together is actually a disaster. Too much thinky for one project, too much control, etc. The way we handle things is to get out of the other one's way...one of us will take on the lead for any project and then ask for help if needed. It's helped us a lot to do things separately, because together we just bicker.


Same story here - two engineers. (Our friends can't wait to see how our kids rebel.) We both want to run the show - no matter what it is.

We can't even make dinner together unless one person is in the charge and the other is a helper. I'm stronger on design/decor so I often do that, and we trade off on lots of the other tasks. The exception is that he does plumbing electrical and car repair on his own. (I might shop for parts.) We both do most of the other stuff -- we both sanded floors and both applied finish, both paint, both do tile, both do landscaping -- but always working out who does what when, considering who's tired and who's reved up and who has better skills. We don't even have a rule for who drives when we're together, other than if you're waiting on the other person, you usually grab the driver's seat to save time.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 31, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> We don't even have a rule for who drives when we're together, other than if you're waiting on the other person, you usually grab the driver's seat to save time.


This one is easy for us...the hubby drives since he gets car sick as a passenger, no matter who is driving.


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## bigray76 (Jul 31, 2009)

klk said:


> Yeah, I'm not even going to attempt if from work, if victoria's secret website is blocked, I'm sure that one is as well.


Ditto.


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## EM_PS (Jul 31, 2009)

I like BLT pizza

edit - oh, and Sazarac Rye


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## klk (Jul 31, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> This one is easy for us...the hubby drives since he gets car sick as a passenger, no matter who is driving.


Okay, the driving topic reminded me of a question. Who ends up being the navigator when you drive with your spouse? My hubby and I share driving responsibilities depending on whose car we're driving (the only exception is driving my car in the snow/ice, b/c I'm a typical NW driver who freaks out driving in the snow). Anyhoo, back when my car was the newest/nicest car, we always took my car everywhere, thus I would do most of the driving (this was true for approximately 5 yrs of dating &amp; 2 years of marriage). When I drive, I sort of feel it's my responsibility to be paying attention to and looking out for directional signage and to implement the necessary lane changes and exits to reach our destination (e.g. - if we're going to Seattle, I follow the signs that direct me to Seattle) .

For the last 3 years of our marriage, my hubby has the newer car and so he does the majority of our driving now. He seems to expect me to know when he needs navigation help and to be prepared to help him at any time. Thus, I get yelled at when we miss an exit because I didn't point out which exit he needed to take, and when I finally did realize that he was in the wrong lane and told him so (maybe 1/2 a mile away), he refused to take corrective action to make the exit because he was too passive (I'm not an aggressive driver, but if there's no room between cars that prevents me from making an immediate lane change and I really need to make it to an exit, I'll turn on my turn signal and see if a nice driver will let me in - my hubby on the other hand, will assume it's a lost cause and refuse to even try). In the last year or so, I've been giving him directions all the time (including lane changes) since he often seems to be inattentive to road signs and I never know which times he needs my help. But when he doesn't need help or I tell him something he already knows, he gets frustrated with me.

I understand that he might need navigation help when we are driving in a new city that is completely unfamiliar (although most of the time, I can easily navigate in a new city without assistance - that's what road signs are for), but I sort of expect someone to be fully capable to read road signs and follow them when you are driving in the city in which you were born and raised and have lived in for the majority of their adult life. Am I being unreasonable? Is it possible he is simply unable to remember details about the various highways in our city unless he travels them a lot?


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## Katiebug (Jul 31, 2009)

klk said:


> Okay, the driving topic reminded me of a question. Who ends up being the navigator when you drive with your spouse?


The Garmin.  Seriously! We both suck at navigating, so the GPS does the work and we stay stress-free.

I usually drive because I've always had the newer car and therefore it's the one we take out more often. I don't mind being a passenger in his car, but I hate being a passenger in my car under most circumstances. It simply doesn't feel right to me, and I hate not having control over my own vehicle.

It's rare that we drive the other's car, by the way. I can count the number of times I've driven the Camry on one hand. I don't dislike it, I just don't often get the opportunity. He's driven the Beetle more often because my car is the one parked closer to the street and if he runs an errand, he'll just take my car rather than having us go through the hoopla of switching cars, then switching when he gets back. Other than that, we stick to our own cars. This is going to change with my new vehicle, and especially when we have kids, because I don't always LIKE being the driver to family events and outings.


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## csb (Aug 1, 2009)

TomTom does the navigating and nagging for me...it'll chime when he's speeding and slowing down and speeding and slowing down...you get the picture. That thing is wonderful.


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## maryannette (Aug 1, 2009)

Some very good discussion here. Lots of good suggestions for making a relationship better. The only thing I would add is to share what you've shared here with your spouse. Maybe not quite as bluntly - add some love in with it. Communications, even when it is awkward, usually helps. It might take a few days for the sting to subside, but communication is good.

Some time ago, my husband was in a generally grouchy mood all the time. Our daughters hated to be around him and so did I. We decided to have an "intervention". We waited until we could all sit down to talk without being rushed. We explained that we wanted to share our feelings because we missed being the family that we used to be. It was a tough time for a couple days and now it is much better. We joke that he is slipping into his "Walter" mood. (Walter is one of Jeff Dunham's puppet characters - a grumpy old man.)

Communication is necessary and the more you do it, the easier it is.


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## snickerd3 (Aug 1, 2009)

klk said:


> Okay, the driving topic reminded me of a question. Who ends up being the navigator when you drive with your spouse?


Depends on where we are going. If it is around where I grew up then I give directions but mostly the garmin tells him where he needs to go...we learned early on that our driving/navigation styles were too different. He uses street names...i turn left at the old house with purple shutters sort of thing.


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## tymr (Aug 1, 2009)

^ I also recommend the Laugh Your Way to a Better Marriage by Mark Gangor. Good stuff.


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## rudy (Aug 1, 2009)

klk said:


> I understand that he might need navigation help when we are driving in a new city that is completely unfamiliar (although most of the time, I can easily navigate in a new city without assistance - that's what road signs are for), but I sort of expect someone to be fully capable to read road signs and follow them when you are driving in the city in which you were born and raised and have lived in for the majority of their adult life. Am I being unreasonable? Is it possible he is simply unable to remember details about the various highways in our city unless he travels them a lot?


Totally agree with Mary about communication. For the long term, perhaps some ideas on how to approach the talk. For the short term, maybe pretend sleeping. :huh:

My hubby does the driving on family outings, gives me time to sleep or at least pretend.


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## csb (Aug 1, 2009)

I've started crafting in the car...it keeps me from critiquing too much. I also applaud communication...the real kind, not the kind that happens while the TV is going and the kid is talking.


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## Master slacker (Aug 1, 2009)

What's the color of love?


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 3, 2009)

Chuck, they just follow you around the web and block stuff


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## maryannette (Aug 3, 2009)

Master slacker said:


> What's the color of love?



I think the color of love is clear. No covering anything up.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 3, 2009)

Forget everything I wrote in this thread last week. It's all bullshit. I'm off to the "sometimes you need to scream" thread.


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## EM_PS (Aug 4, 2009)

^


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

^^ F*@) the mother f&amp;!^ing care bears. I'd like to punch those little turd bags in the teeth.


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## OSUguy98 (Aug 4, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> ^^ F*@) the mother f&amp;!^ing care bears. I'd like to punch those little turd bags in the teeth.


do they have teeth? lol


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## frazil (Aug 4, 2009)

what happened chuck? Did she see through your nicey-nice and realize it was all just for sex?


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## maryannette (Aug 4, 2009)

Hmmmm. Paradise is not good.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

frazil said:


> what happened chuck? Did she see through your nicey-nice and realize it was all just for sex?




No, not at all. We're having diagreements about other things right now. One of which is the fact that her parents are out of control with buying our children stuff. It drive me crazy. I lost my temper and said some things I shouldn't have.

The other is that I had her younger brother's bachelor party this weekend. They rented a limo on Saturday night. The limo was going to pick up at 10:00 and drop off at 3:00. I knew they were going to the :Banane20: club the entire time because that's what they did for her older brother's bachelor party and it's basically the same crowd. So over a week ago I told her older brother (who was planning the thing) that I wasn't going to throw in on the limo ($60 a person) because I didin't want to spend 5 hours at the :Banane20: club. So after dinner Saturday night I drove the hour and a half home and went fishing on Sunday. Then her older brother tells me I owe him $60 for the limo. I told my wife I thought that was bullshit and she tells me that I should have told him earlier. So to me, I stayed out of a :Banane20: club, behaved myself, and I'm still in the dog house. Not so much as a mention that behaved myself, just that its my fault for not telling her brothers that I didn't want to go to the :Banane20: club all night earlier. Oh, and I towed my boat up there (my car gets 10 miles per gallon towing the boat) and paid for gas for the boat and took people out in the boat on Saturday and how much money do you think they're discounting me for that?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


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## csb (Aug 4, 2009)

Female Engineer Opinion- The woman is always right. Do not question the woman.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

So I should have just spent all night getting lap dances with her brothers?


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## EM_PS (Aug 4, 2009)

Seriously though, that Sux Brew! So essentially needed to give more than a weeks notice evidently? I'm glad i'm advanced enuff in age for it to not be a faux pas if I pull an El Paso on the Bachelor's party scene


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## csb (Aug 4, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> So I should have just spent all night getting lap dances with her brothers?


When she told you to quit your bitching about the $60, you should have quit your bitching.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

The thing that pisses me off is my older BIL knew that I wasn't going to do that. He could have easily collected an extra $5 from everyone and covered my share.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

csb said:


> When she told you to quit your bitching about the $60, you should have quit your bitching.



She was the one bitching about the $60, not me. I was pissed about it but I didn't verbalize it.


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## CivE Bricky (Aug 4, 2009)

Chuck,

I'm totally with you on this one...you're 100% right.

Still...

ultimately it comes down to:

how much would you pay have your wife happy? If it's more than $60, just fork over the cash. If you do, there's a good chance she'll apologize or thank you for indulging her even if....

We all have a bit of a blind spot when it comes to brothers' behavior.

&lt;------has 3 brothers

Sounds like this is a fight you could win, but winning won't be all that great.


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## Flyer_PE (Aug 4, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> Seriously though, that Sux Brew! So essentially needed to give more than a weeks notice evidently? I'm glad i'm advanced enuff in age for it to not be a faux pas if I pull an El Paso on the Bachelor's party scene


Ditto. Although I'm not sure whether it's not a faux pas, or I it is and I just don't give a damn.

I'm finding, as I grow older, that there are a lot of things that used to upset me that just aren't worth getting worked up over.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

See, that's the thing. I'm damned if I do, damned if i don't. She's mad because i didn't tell my older BIL two days earlier that I wasn't going in on the limo (like it would have made a difference). I said i'd pay the $60, she's pissed that we're paying it at all but it's her brother that's at fault.


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## chaosiscash (Aug 4, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> Sounds like this is a fight you could win, but winning won't be all that great.


And being able to recognize those type of situations is what makes, in my opinion, a marriage work. You've got to pick your battles.

Chuck, I might be way off, but from a couple of things you've said I'd guess you're not a huge fan of her family. There is nothing wrong with that, I not a big fan of my inlaws either. But when in-law BS happens, in my opinion it really comes down to one thing. She's either worth putting up with her family for, or she's not. Because you're going to be stuck having to deal with them at times, whether you like it or not. Its going to be a rare occurance for you to win a you vs. her family argument, and its going to be even more rare for that win to be worth it.

Like I said, I may be way off base in regards to the situation, and if so, I apologize for my presumptions. The only reason I'm even chiming in is that I have my own set of bat-shit crazy in-laws to deal with.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 4, 2009)

Flyer_PE said:


> I'm finding, as I grow older, that there are a lot of things that used to upset me that just aren't worth getting worked up over.


I'm in the same boat. I can't decide if that comes from apathy or wisdom.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 4, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I'm in the same boat. I can't decide if that comes from apathy or wisdom.


I notice the same thing, even since my early 20s. I think its both. You experience more big meaning of life shit as time goes on, so it puts smaller things in perspective. That's the apathy part.

You also realize when its a good time to make a stink or not, based on what the outcome will be. That's the wisdom part.


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## Fluvial (Aug 4, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> I'm in the same boat. I can't decide if that comes from apathy or wisdom.


Why can't it be both?

Chuck: I'm with you, that's just not right. I personally would be thrilled that you didn't go to the 'gentlemans club' and doubly thrilled that you saved the $60.

But, I wonder if ... your wife is pissed at the brother but she's taking it out on you instead? Maybe she doesn't feel as though she can 'challenge' him or tell him he's wrong, so she is (wrongfully) taking it out on you.

:2cents:


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## kevo_55 (Aug 4, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> I notice the same thing, even since my early 20s. I think its both. You experience more big meaning of life shit as time goes on, so it puts smaller things in perspective. That's the apathy part.
> You also realize when its a good time to make a stink or not, based on what the outcome will be. That's the wisdom part.


:appl:

Well said man!


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## csb (Aug 4, 2009)

chaosiscash said:


> And being able to recognize those type of situations is what makes, in my opinion, a marriage work. You've got to pick your battles.
> 
> Chuck, I might be way off, but from a couple of things you've said I'd guess you're not a huge fan of her family. There is nothing wrong with that, I not a big fan of my inlaws either. But when in-law BS happens, in my opinion it really comes down to one thing. She's either worth putting up with her family for, or she's not. Because you're going to be stuck having to deal with them at times, whether you like it or not. Its going to be a rare occurance for you to win a you vs. her family argument, and its going to be even more rare for that win to be worth it.
> 
> Like I said, I may be way off base in regards to the situation, and if so, I apologize for my presumptions. The only reason I'm even chiming in is that I have my own set of bat-shit crazy in-laws to deal with.


This one is huge...because it sounds like the real problem is not the money. It might also be a listening thing...did she ask you to tell her brother you weren't going and you forgot? Or maybe this is like another situation? It's got to be something deeper, I'm guessing. If it's not, I would echo the pick your battles.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

csb said:


> This one is huge...because it sounds like the real problem is not the money. It might also be a listening thing...did she ask you to tell her brother you weren't going and you forgot? Or maybe this is like another situation? It's got to be something deeper, I'm guessing. If it's not, I would echo the pick your battles.



The real problem is that I lost my temper on Friday about her parents buying too much stuff for our kids. She's been pissed off at me ever since. In retrospect, the $60 is a side issue but one of the many that's being heaped on the pile.


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## MA_PE (Aug 4, 2009)

so you threw $60 away on a limo.

How much would you have spent had you actually gone to the club? In my case, it would probably have been a lot more + the $60.


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## BluSkyy (Aug 4, 2009)

sounds like its time for a weeklong fishing trip in canada.


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## EM_PS (Aug 4, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> The real problem is that I lost my temper on Friday about her parents buying too much stuff for our kids. She's been pissed off at me ever since. In retrospect, the $60 is a side issue but one of the many that's being heaped on the pile.


You did provoke the bull, you're def getting the horns. I love my wife to death, but she disses on my immediate kin (even when I f'n know where she's coming from), it raises up my hackles. Its no diff for her &amp; her (whacko imo) side of the familia. Some skirmishes simply cannot be won no matter how in the right or justified your position may be. marriages truly are realizing that never ever are you in sole control of, or at the helm all by yourself - nor should you be.

Scale back on the wedding gift.


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## FLBuff PE (Aug 4, 2009)

error_matrix said:


> ...Scale back on the wedding gift.


I would say an about $60 reduction should do the trick...


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## csb (Aug 4, 2009)

or send a stripper...


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

Maybe I'll go to the titty bar instead of the wedding?


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## EM_PS (Aug 4, 2009)

^ now you're making sense!


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## snickerd3 (Aug 4, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> Maybe I'll go to the titty bar instead of the wedding?


and you think your troubles are bad now... :sharkattack:


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## Road Guy (Aug 4, 2009)

I just avoid her family, she avoids mine, its made a huge difference, probably not the best but it works..


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## jmbeck (Aug 4, 2009)

I'm sorry, this is where I'd stand on my principles. You told him a week ahead, you took a boat and paid for the gas in the boat. Screw it.

Then again, this is coming from about 10 years of realizing that no one ever "hits you back". I used to buy rounds of drinks for my friends, assuming they would get the next one. Yeah, they never do.

Maybe that's the bitter guy in me that was taken advantage of on numerous occasions for years, but I wouldn't pay it. Be damned if I paid it in fact.


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## maryannette (Aug 4, 2009)

Sometimes, you just have to give up your money, give up winning the battle, say you're sorry, and move on. That's just part of being in a relationship. Do you want to keep the battle going or keep the relationship going?


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

I have already apologized, paid the money, and attempted to repair the damage. I'm not a f*#@ing idiot.


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## jmbeck (Aug 4, 2009)

That's just it, sorry for what? Sorry for not wanting to throw their cash away?

Apologizing when you think you're doing the best thing for you and your family makes a man very resentful. Eventually, it will become too much.

I don't agree with apologizing just for the sake of ending a fight. That only, in my experience, leads to a bigger fight down the road. Agree to disagree, but don't blindly apologize.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 4, 2009)

I apologized for losing my temper on Friday. And yes, I've been in the doghouse since Friday.


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## jmbeck (Aug 4, 2009)

I understand apologizing for that. Heck, I have to do that a lot.

Maybe I'm just youngish and a fool. I concede to those that have been married for a long time.


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## Dleg (Aug 4, 2009)

I don't think you can survive any long-term relationship without developing the ability to apologize for things you KNOW are not your responsibility. Whether it's marriage or even work.

The older I get, and the fewer and fewer "successful" people I meet (successful in work, marriage, etc.), the more I believe in "amiable indifference" as a way of being..... It really doesn't hurt you to just let it go.... and those who can't.... don't last.


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## Dexman1349 (Aug 5, 2009)

csb said:


> or send a stripper...


In a limo...


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## bigray76 (Aug 5, 2009)

csb said:


> or send a stripper...


I hear VTE works cheap!


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## jmbeck (Aug 5, 2009)

Dleg said:


> I don't think you can survive any long-term relationship without developing the ability to apologize for things you KNOW are not your responsibility. Whether it's marriage or even work.
> The older I get, and the fewer and fewer "successful" people I meet (successful in work, marriage, etc.), the more I believe in "amiable indifference" as a way of being..... It really doesn't hurt you to just let it go.... and those who can't.... don't last.


I guess I'm taking it to the extreme.

I'm relating this to a different yet similar situation in my life. Not with my wife, but with someone else I care about.

All I know is that years and years of always being the "wrong" one and having to apologize for the sake of ending an argument has lead me to be indifferent to her fits. She's mad now, and it really doesn't bother me. And that's sad.

I understand what most of your are saying, and I do try to live that way. I'd rather be happy and wrong than unhappy and right. But, I just know what years of always being the wrong one leads to.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 5, 2009)

bigray76 said:


> I hear VTE works cheap!


Be sure to ask for the Business Man's special to get the super discounted rate.

:bananapowerslide:


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> See, that's the thing. I'm damned if I do, damned if i don't. She's mad because i didn't tell my older BIL two days earlier that I wasn't going in on the limo (like it would have made a difference). I said i'd pay the $60, she's pissed that we're paying it at all but it's her brother that's at fault.


Well, can I tell you what I hear ... if I may?

I hear you saying .. there are some on-going lingering issues bubbling beneath the surface that are reaching escalation over 'small' change. Bad place to be .. I have been there and forced to eject based on the continued escalation of hostility and decline in healthy relationship.



chaosiscash said:


> And being able to recognize those type of situations is what makes, in my opinion, a marriage work. You've got to pick your battles.


Very true.



chaosiscash said:


> Chuck, I might be way off, but from a couple of things you've said I'd guess you're not a huge fan of her family. There is nothing wrong with that, I not a big fan of my inlaws either. But when in-law BS happens, in my opinion it really comes down to one thing. She's either worth putting up with her family for, or she's not. Because you're going to be stuck having to deal with them at times, whether you like it or not. Its going to be a rare occurance for you to win a you vs. her family argument, and its going to be even more rare for that win to be worth it.


This is probably one of the areas where couples have a hard time reaching common ground because you cannot 'control' or 'influence' family - not in the way you would want them to act. It's a matter of accepting or not accepting ... and that is very, very complicated.

I got spun into an increasingly sick and vile web with ex-Mrs. JR's family. They were absolute leeches on our relationship and for all practical purposes they just didn't care because she let them to that to our relationship. Have you considered talking to your wife about specific things that your in-laws do that damage your relationship ... or in the case of her parents, unduly influence your children in a way that you do not approve?

And .. you cannot say .. they suck ... or they are bad ... you have to present your position in a rational way and why it hurts or offends. I realize it is more complicated than it sounds - I ended my marriage because it reached a point of impossibility. Talking about it may continue hostilities .. but at some point you have to resolve differences and reach a point of common ground.



Chucktown PE said:


> The real problem is that I lost my temper on Friday about her parents buying too much stuff for our kids. She's been pissed off at me ever since. In retrospect, the $60 is a side issue but one of the many that's being heaped on the pile.


Having one issue compound another is not a good place to be - I would wait to redress your concerns until a time where things aren't as sensitive.



Road Guy said:


> I just avoid her family, she avoids mine, its made a huge difference, probably not the best but it works..


I tried that one with ex-Mrs. JR ... I avoided the inevitable for about five years and compounded the cost from exiting the relationship.

That's not to say avoidance doesn't work ... just realize there may be a larger price later down the road for avoiding.



jmbeck said:


> Maybe that's the bitter guy in me that was taken advantage of on numerous occasions for years, but I wouldn't pay it. Be damned if I paid it in fact.


From a non-bitter guy who has also been in the taken-advantage position, I actually agree - I started to put my foot down on principle issues (in my case prohibiting people from using/selling drugs from my home) and that brought things to a rapid end. I think if there are princples that are important, you *DO* have to stand up and say no.



Dleg said:


> I don't think you can survive any long-term relationship without developing the ability to apologize for things you KNOW are not your responsibility. Whether it's marriage or even work.


I agree with being able to have the ability to do that ... but I do not advocate doing it for the sake of reaching peace. Too many unresolved issues leads to a bigger explosion down the road. And, as I found out, you *DO* reach a point of not being able to fix your relationship. Some things do become irretrievably broken ... and a delicate tight rope walk to maintain that bond ensues. Again - apologies are good, but not if you saying it to avoid the argument or reaching a common ground.



Dleg said:


> The older I get, and the fewer and fewer "successful" people I meet (successful in work, marriage, etc.), the more I believe in "amiable indifference" as a way of being..... It really doesn't hurt you to just let it go.... and those who can't.... don't last.


Completely agree - you do have to be able to say, as a couple, we agree to disagree but I have enough respect for you not to cross your line. Tough one ... and it doesn't always work out as history has taught me. 



jmbeck said:


> I guess I'm taking it to the extreme.


It's not extreme - that's REAL!!!



jmbeck said:


> All I know is that years and years of always being the "wrong" one and having to apologize for the sake of ending an argument has lead me to be indifferent to her fits. She's mad now, and it really doesn't bother me. And that's sad.
> I understand what most of your are saying, and I do try to live that way. I'd rather be happy and wrong than unhappy and right. But, I just know what years of always being the wrong one leads to.


It's a valid point ... and important because if one choose to 'give-in' for whatever reason, you have to find your own inner-peace with making that choice. The problem is that nobody wants to be continually on the receiving end of the apologizing line ... that's why I say ... you must be cognizant of your actions - why are you apologizing? Are you okay with apologizing? Is there something that still needs to be discussed or addressed?

There are no single right answers to any given problem .. but there are always many wrong answers. I just say ... think and act with purpose. 

JR


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## TouchDown (Aug 5, 2009)

WWABD?


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## Katiebug (Aug 5, 2009)

jregieng said:


> This is probably one of the areas where couples have a hard time reaching common ground because you cannot 'control' or 'influence' family - not in the way you would want them to act. It's a matter of accepting or not accepting ... and that is very, very complicated.
> I got spun into an increasingly sick and vile web with ex-Mrs. JR's family. They were absolute leeches on our relationship and for all practical purposes they just didn't care because she let them to that to our relationship. Have you considered talking to your wife about specific things that your in-laws do that damage your relationship ... or in the case of her parents, unduly influence your children in a way that you do not approve?


Family issues are so tough to deal with. We live within a 30 minute drive from my parents, my father in law, and my sister in law and her family. It is wonderful for us to have our families so close, and sometimes it sucks.

I grew up with a very distinct nuclear family and having virtually no relationship with grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. Extended family were people we spoke to once a year at Christmas and who we got a birthday card from. Part of this was due to the fact that both of my parents' families of origin were/are somewhat disfunctional and they chose to move halfway across the country and limit contact. Anyways, Mr. Bug grew up with a rich and involved and local extended family. He's used to spending holidays with family, celebrating birthdays together, having random barbecues and parties for the heck of it, etc.

We fought for years over what to do for Christmas and Thanksgiving. His family (FIL, SIL, etc.) expect that we will spend part of the holiday with them regardless of the fact that my parents are local as well, and that we might wish to enjoy the holiday at OUR home rather than traipsing all over the state. When we first started declining SIL's Thanksgiving invitation, she pulled out all the stops - even invoking my deceased MIL - in order to guilt-trip us into coming. Despite our resolution to enjoy Christmas day at home as a family, every.single.year he caves and we wind up spending half the day at SIL's house (of course to make it convenient since they have children and we don't). To my in-laws, our wishes don't matter because we don't have kids and thus should have no objection to a frazzled, rushed holiday.

My FIL clearly plays favorites. First it was that SIL was the perfect child who could do no wrong, while Mr. Bug was the little black sheep of the family (because he took so long to finish college and *gasp* worked retail for several years). Then when SIL and BIL had our nephew, we became persona non grata due to the fact that he's grandbaby-crazy and we have not provided him with a grandchild to dote on (yet another example of how his son is a "disappointment"). The niece's arrival has only served to further his complete lack of involvement in our lives. We don't matter except on birthdays and holidays, at least not until we have children. For Christmas last year, we got a $100 Chili's gift card, and SIL/BIL got a $500 digital camcorder. Shit like that. I have zero expectation that things will change radically once we start a family - SIL beat us to it, and that's that.

We've had issues with my parents, too. When they started to see how my FIL treats Mr. Bug and me, they decided to step in and fill the gap. My mom has a naturally overbearing personality to begin with and has always been disappointed that she and I are not "best friend" mom-and-daughter. She comes to our home and criticizes our decorating choices. We're buying me a new car now, and she's tried to have me bring HER on test drives rather than my husband (that got shot down quickly). With my brother deployed overseas, she has more time to focus on us. Establishing boundaries is difficult for me and for many women, because we're people pleasers. Especially an oldest daughter. When my mom cried over us not coming over for a last-minute dinner invite, I knew it was manipulation, no different from what SIL does - yet I still felt guilty.

Anyways, if there's one thing I've learned it's that for family to not unduly influence a marriage, you must establish boundaries and make the marriage/family the priority over parents, siblings, etc. It took a long time to communicate this to my parents and brother, but if it comes down to him versus them, he's going to win. I am not going to put my family of origin above my marriage and (future) children. We're working on this with my in-laws right now, too. And when necessary, I am the one who stands up to my family, and he has to be the one to stand up to his family.


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## Ble_PE (Aug 5, 2009)

Katiebug said:


> Anyways, if there's one thing I've learned it's that for family to not unduly influence a marriage, you must establish boundaries and make the marriage/family the priority over parents, siblings, etc. It took a long time to communicate this to my parents and brother, but if it comes down to him versus them, he's going to win. I am not going to put my family of origin above my marriage and (future) children. We're working on this with my in-laws right now, too. And when necessary, I am the one who stands up to my family, and he has to be the one to stand up to his family.


This is exactly how my wife and I feel. We are lucky in that we both get along with our in-laws, but we do know that each family has their quirks and that we always come before them. There have been times that we have turned down invitations from both in-laws because we simply didn't want to do it. The best thing is that our families get along, so we have get togethers a lot with all the in-laws quite often, so that's nice.


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## Supe (Aug 5, 2009)

After reading this page of the thread, I must say, I do not envy most of you. In a similar light, I'd like to thank you all once again for reminding me why I have chosen a life without marriage or meaningful relationship.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 5, 2009)

Perhaps I have given the wrong impression here. I love my wife very much and I couldn't imagine anything that would ever cause a divorce (except for maybe if she cheated on me and I am 100% sure she would never do that). I was just venting a little bit and this seemed like the place to do it.

The bottom line is that I lost my temper and said things that I shouldn't have said. Regardless of the fact that I have a reason to be pissed off over her parents constantly buying shit for our kids, if I had not lost my temper we probably could have had a reasonable conversation and this would all be over.

I have had some underlying anger over this issue for a couple of months now because back in early June I went out and bought Mrs. Chuck a new dress. I knew she had been looking for a dress and I was walking through the shopping district on the way to lunch one day and saw a nice dress in a store window and bought it. That was one of those things that I was trying to do more often. The dress didn't fit so I took it back but Mrs. Chuck was very appreciative and of course told everyone (including her mother) what I did. So now you can guess what my MIL does next. Goes out and buys my wife a new dress to one up me. Of course this one fit and noww my MIL is the hero. So I was pissed for two reasons, 1) I don't think her parents need to be buying us clothes seeing as how we are adults, 2) this was a deliberate attempt by my MIL to one up me. So long story short, I calmly told Mrs. Chuck that was the last time I would do something like that again.........EVER.

So then I found out on Friday that there were plans for Mrs. Chuck and her mom to go shopping for our kids for clothes this weekend while I was at my BIL's bachelor party, which is why I lost my temper.

So Mrs. Chuck was pissed off at me for the things I said (and she had every right to be) and the $60 thing was just something else she could be irritated about.

Things seem to be calming down a little but we have not had a conversation about the underlying issues.


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## OSUguy98 (Aug 5, 2009)

Speaking of family and relatives/etc... Try living &lt; 1/2 mi from your parents... and ~8 mi from the in-laws... farthest immediate family is about a 30 min drive...

Family issues have been a staple of frustration and arguments between my wife and I. Esp. since my dad passed away. My dad did everything for my mom, so now, she doesn't know how to start the lawn mower, or replace the light bulbs in ceiling fan(enclosed).... So the rash of phone calls at very inconvenient times, late at night,etc has frustrated my wife to no end... Now, when the phone rings and its my mom, her mood will change from great/happy/stress free to pissed/angry/short/etc.... She will fully admit that there is a double standard with my mom and her parents... She's actually volunteered me to replace a toilet at their house before even mentioning it to me...

Holidays are another issue... I came from a fairly close family... she didn't... I forgot most of the time that she had an older brother (6 or 8 years older than her, he never lived at the house when I was around).... On the opposite side, my brother is my best friend.... we did everything together growing up (he's 7 years older, and we have similar interests/etc).... Once I got married, I get to see my brother once a month if I'm lucky... I've taken a day off from work before just to have a "guy day" where we can sit around and play video games, etc... and my wife gives me the "You never take a day off to stay home with me".... I do, frequently, but we always end up working on the house.... When we try to plan for holidays, it's chaotic at best.... ALL of our families live in a 40 mile radius.... so her family will have something at noon.... and at dinner.... some people can make it to one, some can make it to the other..... my family is the same way.... I always try to aim to go whenever my brother is going to be there... she always aims to go whenever her great-nephew will be there.... and, it's always the same time.... without fail.... so we try to do both.... we go to her family stuff, stay for a few hours.... head to my family stuff, stay for a few hours.... but somehow the extra 30 minutes that we spent with my family (travel time must count, apparently) ends up causing hard feelings....

Holidays aside, if I try to plan something with my immediate family (Mom, brother, SIL, niece), I get the "I only get to see my brothers maybe 4 times a year, I don't understand why we have to do something with them all the time".... Is the fact that her brothers can't pick up the phone and talk to her or each other or her parents really my fault??? why should my family interactions resemble her's if she complains about it so much??


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## CivE Bricky (Aug 5, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> I have had some underlying anger over this issue for a couple of months now because back in early June I went out and bought Mrs. Chuck a new dress. I knew she had been looking for a dress and I was walking through the shopping district on the way to lunch one day and saw a nice dress in a store window and bought it. That was one of those things that I was trying to do more often. The dress didn't fit so I took it back but Mrs. Chuck was very appreciative and of course told everyone (including her mother) what I did. So now you can guess what my MIL does next. Goes out and buys my wife a new dress to one up me. Of course this one fit and noww my MIL is the hero. So I was pissed for two reasons, 1) I don't think her parents need to be buying us clothes seeing as how we are adults, 2) this was a deliberate attempt by my MIL to one up me. So long story short, I calmly told Mrs. Chuck that was the last time I would do something like that again.........EVER.


Once the dust settles, the two of you need to deal with this issue:

You bought a dress, Mrs. Chuck loved it, and (I think) due to no action of Mrs. Chuck you got angry at Mrs. Chuck and said you'd never buy her a dress again even though she loved it.

(I'd be infuriated if I were Mrs. Chuck.)

You both have an issue to address with MIL, and together, you need to come up with a plan to deal with it. Clearly, MIL is a scheming manipulator competing with you for Mrs. Chuck's attention and devotion. That only works if Mrs. Chuck lets her do it. You and Mrs. Chuck together have to choose something that's workable for both of you that takes away MIL's ability to push your button.

Maybe (if you both agree):

restricting MIL gifts to holidays only. Gifts given in disregard of the rule are donated to charity. (Where's that bunny I just got Freddy? And the living room curtains? "Well as you know, we're teaching the children to share extras with the less fortunate and we need to lead by example." Just like training a kid, you must be ruthlessly swift and consistent with no exceptions.....of course, if Mrs. Chuck likes all the stuff and wants it, then you need some other agreement. And yes, there will be either be an epic battle with MIL or a deep chill, but if you both stand firm, eventually all will be better for everyone.

OR

restricting gifts to items the whole family can enjoy together.

My brother and SIL had lots of toy gifts coming their way -- they included tax deductable stuff donation in their family budget and would scrounge up $500 or so of toys and clothes every half year to donate. If they hadn't, their home would have become a giant storage unit. That approach was easier for them than stopping the buying.

The key is you and Mrs. Chuck need a plan you can both live with. And Mrs. Chuck is the communicator with MIL, not you. And she can't just say, "Chuck wants you to....," she needs to say, "Chuck and I have decided that your generosity is overwhelming us and WE...."

**************

My FIL favorite was when he broke down and cried with Mr. Brick about what a tragedy it was that he'd ruined his life by marrying a poor housekeeper who refused to be his helpmate and support him in his career. (This was when we had a new baby, I was finishing college and working full-time.....lazy wife!) Mr. Brick and I talked about it and decided how to deal with it (ignore it). Now 13 or so years later, I still hold FIL at arm's length -- his loss. We didn't shut and lock the door, but we live a half country away and visited only every 2 years, until very recently. (Need to check on MIL -- who is divorced from FIL, but in the same town.)


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 5, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> Once the dust settles, the two of you need to deal with this issue:
> You bought a dress, Mrs. Chuck loved it, and (I think) due to no action of Mrs. Chuck you got angry at Mrs. Chuck and said you'd never buy her a dress again even though she loved it.
> 
> (I'd be infuriated if I were Mrs. Chuck.)



Ahh, but what I didn't mention is that Mrs. Chuck picked out the dress and let her mom pay for it. They were in the store together. So Mrs. Chuck can get infuriated if she wants but I'm not buying her anything like that again.


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## csb (Aug 5, 2009)

If my husband treated me like a child, I'd be mad at him as well. There's a male in my house that's prone to hyperbole, but I'm not married to him. It's my three-year-old.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 5, 2009)

csb said:


> If my husband treated me like a child, I'd be mad at him as well. There's a male in my house that's prone to hyperbole, but I'm not married to him. It's my three-year-old.


I don't see how that is treating her like a child. If she wants her mom to buy her clothes then great. I'm not going to waste my f-ing time trying to compete with my MIL. And it isn't hyperbole because it isn't an exaggeration.


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## jmbeck (Aug 5, 2009)

csb said:


> If my husband treated me like a child, I'd be mad at him as well. There's a male in my house that's prone to hyperbole, but I'm not married to him. It's my three-year-old.


Frankly, I'm surprised it made it to page 6 before the bashing began.


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## EM_PS (Aug 5, 2009)

csb said:


> If my husband treated me like a child, I'd be mad at him as well. There's a male in my house that's prone to hyperbole, but I'm not married to him. It's my three-year-old.


ummm, the pot calls the kettle 'black'?



csb said:


> Female Engineer Opinion- The woman is always right. Do not question the woman.





csb said:


> When she told you to quit your bitching about the $60, you should have quit your bitching.


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## csb (Aug 5, 2009)

Obviously the Female Engineer thing was a joke...it is a thread about female engineers, right? And the quit your bitching is totally about picking your battles. If every little argument needs to be won, a relationship won't hold up.

In my opinion, if my husband bought me something and it didn't fit and I was appreciative, he'd be happy that he tried. If I then went shopping with my mom and it caused him to tell me he was never buying me anything ever again, I'd be insulted, because that is something I'd expect of a parent to a child, but not spouse to spouse. Interpret it as bashing, but when his wife has been mad for days I'd still say it was a deeper issue and I'm guessing that issue is the lack of respect between them.

So, call me a hypocrite, call it bashing, but I'm standing by my opinion. I'm happily married.


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 5, 2009)




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## maryannette (Aug 5, 2009)

I just want to say that some of what I've been reading is normal marriage/relationship. Some of it is childish. Some of it is bitter. All of it is part of life. The trick is to learn from difficult times and challenges and make adjustments from what you learn. You have to keep a very good line of honest communication with the people you want to continue relationships with. It is an investment in the future. And, it is still give and take.

My husband and I have been married almost 30 years. We've been through most of the problems described in this thread. In the whole picture, those things don't matter. If that is what you want to base a relationship on, there are a lot of things missing.


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## EM_PS (Aug 5, 2009)

csb said:


> So, call me a hypocrite, call it bashing, but I'm standing by my opinion. I'm happily married.


I know, it just seemed there was a pattern developing there where the claws were coming out for Chucktown -

Pride, men are stupid with it. . .at least i am. . .i'd like to blame my mom ( :joke: )


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 5, 2009)

Say what you will. I'm just choosing to stay out of a pissing contest with my MIL over who can win my wife's affection with material objects. My MIL has a lot more money than I do so I choose not to compete. I do thank you all for your insights but I feel like I'm right on this one and I don't think I'm going to change my opinion. I would like to drop this issue now and talk about boobs.


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## jmbeck (Aug 5, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> I would like to drop this issue now and talk about boobs.


You forgot college football, for the total hijack.


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## bigray76 (Aug 5, 2009)

^^^Oh c'mon guys, this is the ask a woman engineer a question thread, not a place to talk about boobs and college football... you are supposed to ASK the women engineers about their boobs and college football...


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## jmbeck (Aug 5, 2009)

I'm sorry.

Ahem, Ladies...

Where do you think Tommy Tubberville will be coaching this time next year?

I think it will be Texas A&amp;M. It seems as though it will be a good fit, and we all know Mike Sherman is not the man you want leading a college program. Not saying it was the worst hire ever, but is 4-8 really what they expected? Another sub .500 season, and Sherman is out.

Then again, I think the leash may be short on Randy Shannon down in Miami. It will be unfair, considering that Larry Coker recruited like he was playing EA Sports NCAA 05 football, and Randy has really improved this team (good recruiting classes coming in). But, their schedule opens up with FSU, GT, Va. Tech, and Oklahoma. It's reasonable to believe the will begin 0-4, and with that the best they can hope for is 7-5. After a 12-13 start to his career, 19-18 is not what the U demands. Unfortunately, I don't think he'll be in Miami much longer.

With all the new coaches in the SEC, do you see anyone getting fired/leaving soon? Neither do I, so I think that's out.

All in all, I think aTm will be the most likely candidate. I think we can all agree that this time next year Tommy T will be preparing for fall ball, don't you?


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## MGX (Aug 5, 2009)

Good thread. My SO and I have been through many of the topics covered in this thread, sounds like we're normal.

Some of her family is absolutely crazy (eg Black Belt Southern Baptist types) so dealing with them is always fun.


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## roadwreck (Aug 5, 2009)

MGX said:


> (eg Black Belt Southern Baptist types)


h34r:


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## maryannette (Aug 5, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> ... over who can win my wife's affection with material objects. My MIL has a lot more money than I do so I choose not to compete.



YOU have a bigger problem that you want to admit. Why are you trying to buy your wife's affection? That doesn't speak very highly of either one of you. Do you have a business agreement or a marriage?


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## jmbeck (Aug 5, 2009)

MGX said:


> (eg Black Belt Southern Baptist types)


Bible belt maybe?

The visions that popped in my head were pretty humorous though.


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## benbo (Aug 5, 2009)

MGX said:


> Black Belt Southern Baptist types


Accept the Lord, or a flying side kick.

Your choice.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 5, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> YOU have a bigger problem that you want to admit. Why are you trying to buy your wife's affection? That doesn't speak very highly of either one of you. Do you have a business agreement or a marriage?



I'm done talking about this. I'm glad you're able to judge my entire marriage based on a couple of stupid ass posts on the interwebs. I shouldn't have used the words "winning my wife's affection".


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## frazil (Aug 5, 2009)

benbo said:


> Accept the Lord, or a flying side kick.
> Your choice.


LMAO!


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## frazil (Aug 5, 2009)

MGX said:


> Good thread. My SO and I have been through many of the topics covered in this thread, sounds like we're normal.
> Some of her family is absolutely crazy (eg Black Belt Southern Baptist types) so dealing with them is always fun.


I agree. We've dealt with a lot of in-law issues. Many of them on my side. This thread is making me feel normal.


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## jmbeck (Aug 5, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> YOU have a bigger problem that you want to admit. Why are you trying to buy your wife's affection? That doesn't speak very highly of either one of you. Do you have a business agreement or a marriage?


That was sort of taken out of context.

He didn't say he was trying to, he said his mother-in-law was able to.

And I don't think that was so much a "my wife can be bought" as much as a "my mother-in-law can do 'such and such' and everything be forgiven/forgotten".

My MIL is like that. She can be hateful as ever to my wife, and one random act of quasi-kindness and she's back up to Mother of the Year in her eyes.

If there is one thing I've learned from this board, it is that engineers are extremely judgmental. There have been a lot of harsh comments made by people that only know bits and pieces of a whole story.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 5, 2009)

benbo said:


> Accept the Lord, or a flying side kick.
> Your choice.


Are there any Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons out there? You'd walk in the door from work and find them already sitting on your couch with a full spread of literature on your coffee table.


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## FLBuff PE (Aug 5, 2009)

And now to try to right the thread to where it started...

Have any of the female engineers here found it useful to be a woman in the engineering field? In what ways?


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## maryannette (Aug 5, 2009)

frazil said:


> This thread is making me feel normal.


Me, too. :blink: I LOVE my husband! :wub:


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## maryannette (Aug 5, 2009)

jmbeck said:


> If there is one thing I've learned from this board, it is that engineers are extremely judgmental. There have been a lot of harsh comments made by people that only know bits and pieces of a whole story.


You're absolutely right. I jumped into that without thinking. My intent is usually to help the situation, and if my comments did harm, I'm sorry.


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## CivE Bricky (Aug 5, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Have any of the female engineers here found it useful to be a woman in the engineering field? In what ways?


I'll bite.

I find I'm rather memorable....I don't have to struggle to be noticed or remembered. Now and then, this is embarrassing if I can't return the favor, but all in all it's a plus.


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## maryannette (Aug 5, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> Have any of the female engineers here found it useful to be a woman in the engineering field? In what ways?


Occasionally, there is consideration given to a female engineer that would not be given to a man, BUT it doesn't make up for the crap.


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## CivE Bricky (Aug 5, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> Occasionally, there is consideration given to a female engineer that would not be given to a man, BUT it doesn't make up for the crap.


overall I agree that female engineers get undeserved crap at times

but everyone gets some bias:

there's the "kid" who looks fresh out of college who can't get respect and the greybeard who is assumed to be a has-been...even though they're both great engineers.

Us females don't get to try living out our careers as male engineers -- so I guess we'll never really know for sure how much we're treated differently (or not?).

I expect to be respected for what I know and for my talents -- and usually, I get what I expect. I also assume the best of people until I have no other choice. It's really easy to take offense when none is intended if you go looking for it.


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## FLBuff PE (Aug 5, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> overall I agree that female engineers get undeserved crap at times
> but everyone gets some bias:
> 
> there's the "kid" who looks fresh out of college who can't get respect and the greybeard who is assumed to be a has-been...even though they're both great engineers.
> ...


What do you mean by that?! j/k


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## csb (Aug 5, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> I'll bite.
> I find I'm rather memorable....I don't have to struggle to be noticed or remembered. Now and then, this is embarrassing if I can't return the favor, but all in all it's a plus.


This happens to me all the time at big work conferences. They can all remember who I am, but I struggle to keep all the middle aged white men separate. They all kinda look the same 

Sometimes there is the advantage of someone wanting to take care of you, just because you're a girl. Maybe it's the secretary, maybe it's a contractor...but just for gender, they are looking out for you. On the flip side, sometimes there are people who want to make your life hard because you're a girl...especially secretaries. It's a wash in the end.

Overall, I come into work to do my job just like any male would. I don't necessarily approach things any differently. Once I walk in the door, I'm an engineer.


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## snickerd3 (Aug 5, 2009)

FLBuff PE said:


> And now to try to right the thread to where it started...
> 
> Have any of the female engineers here found it useful to be a woman in the engineering field? In what ways?


I know others might disagree but when I'm out in the field it brings out the gentleman qualities in the roughest/toughest field guys.

Being remembered like others said is definitely true.


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## Dleg (Aug 5, 2009)

I think this thread needs a does of bunny-hamster-kitten-puppy.


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## maryannette (Aug 5, 2009)

AAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW.


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## csb (Aug 5, 2009)

:wub:


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## Capt Worley PE (Aug 6, 2009)

The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


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## maryannette (Aug 6, 2009)

I had my first baby at 28, second at 33. It is VERY hard to be a working professional mom. You need a support system. It can be family, friends, a good daycare system, a nanny, a good husband/daddy. I am seeing now how easy it is to be a little more dedicated to my work without worrying about the mom responsibilities.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2009)

snickerd3 said:


> Being remembered like others said is definitely true.


Probably the highest compliment paid to me lately has been when I invited a group of female engineers to a project site to explain what was that I was doing and explained the different aspects and phases that were important. They all thanked me profusely for not only thinking of them but taking the time to include them in something like that effort. 



Capt Worley PE said:


> The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


Last night my supervisor was commenting on the notion that a person could reduce their carbon footprint by reducing/eliminating having children. Given that my supervisor is a wildlife biologist, he said, "Well, that's not entirely true - the most critical component in this notion of reaching a zero-population growith movement is the age of the female when she gives birth to her first child. In other words, the woman delays having children in her life, the closer you get to achieving the zero-population growth model."

So, if you think about it, women engineers are spot-on in an environmentally, socially responsible way. 

JR


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## csb (Aug 6, 2009)

I was 26, and I think we're done with one. I imagine it is MUCH easier to study for the PE when you don't have a kid. Additionally, I think I spent the first few years of my career trying to convince people that I was more engineer than woman and being pregnant is like a giant billboard about gender.

It is hard, but I am glad to be both a mom and an engineer. I wouldn't be happy any other way, but also respect people who make other choices in life.


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## CivE Bricky (Aug 6, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


I think it's because none of us end up in this career by accident. No one suffers through those endless problem sets without wanting the prize at the end -- when instead, we could be taking classes with some reading and a midterm and maybe a final paper.

We know we can support ourselves and don’t need to go find someone to take care of us, although most of us are interested in marriage, we don’t NEED it. And although many of us want kids, we want other things too...and choices are required - you cannot just have it all and function well.

I believe education generally delays marriage and I’d assume there could be more of a delay in tech majors.

I can tell you about me:

I got married at 31 (to a 28 yo Mr. Brick who had previously purchased a house).

In my particular case, I was working as a construction manager then, but hadn’t yet completed my degree. (Most people assumed I had it.) I was in the process of taking a class per semester on my employers’ dime to finish up. The local college had all engineering classes mid-morning, so I left and made up hours in the early evening.

I had hoped to complete my degree before I had children, but it didn’t work out that way—I had our first at 34. So I got to be a new mom, working full-time and going to school. When I got down to my last semester, we sucked up paying the full tuition bill and losing part of my salary to get it done – so I had a one year old, went to school full-time and worked part-time (although people still treated me as if I was full-time – not recommended).

My husband was always a very ambitious engineer and went to work for a startup an hour away just before our first was born. I knew he needed to do that and there wasn’t going to be a better time until kid(s) finished college.

I got my degree when my oldest was two and around then the startup looked shaky and we decided to unload our hard-to-sell house to stay light on our feet. (It was a starter home on a kid-unfriendly busy street and had 40 acres of land value that most potential buyers preferred to dump into a better house.) The need for both of us to do prep-to-sell renos delayed our second pregnancy until I was 37. Our house sold mid-way through that pregnancy and we shifted to rentals.

A bit later, the startup was looking really good, staff of 30, decent salaries, so we (along with many others) moved nearby and bought a house. I switched to commuting.

We talked about a third child, and consensus was: I will if you want to. Since there was no one with a “I really want to,” that’s been it so far.

Unfortunately the startup died within 2 years of our home purchase and although Mr. Brick was able to find another good job in town very quickly, he started over with little vacation time (not negotiable with this employer). Our family couldn’t function with two working parents with minimal vacation, so I’ve stuck it out with the commute and worked on FE and PE in the meantime (with lots of sacrifice from the entire family).

Now I’m approaching 20 years at my job and a big jump in future pension benefits, so I’m waiting that out (and the economy) for a few more months and hope to soon join Mr. Brick with employment in the same town that we live in. A huge run of overtime for him hit right after my PE exam, so we’ve just continued in one parent mode—so that’s how my wait to job hunt time is being used – and I’m fine with that.

My husband and I have taken turns helping each other with career and education goals…but all in all, I have to say he’s been much smarter and more successful with career than I’ve been. (Plenty of people would envy what I’ve done too—I just know I’m no where near potential.) I do think it’s nearly impossible to raise kids and have two high-powered careers (the kind that require serious travel and frequent overtime)…..so that’s OK with me for now.

Lots of my female engineer friends (married and not) joke about needing a wife....our society just isn't set up with the support structures that we all want....except for the lucky few who have available and competent extended family willing to help out.


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## snickerd3 (Aug 6, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


I'll be 29 by the time this baby is born and it will be our first. We waited a while for kids...I was 22 (hubby 23) when we got married.

Waiting until you can afford it is not always pipe dream, it is possible. Both cars and my student loans (hubby's parents pd for him))are paid off. We just have the mortgage, and we have been able to travel the world.


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## Katiebug (Aug 6, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


It seems pretty typical. In general, the more educated a woman is, the fewer kids she has and the older she is at first birth. It's not just in engineering; you see that trend among doctors, lawyers, accountants, and especially women in academia.

Nearly all of the older female engineers here in my workplace (all EEs and software types) have college- and high school-aged kids right now but worked part time the entire time they had young children. Some are still PT now, some went back to FT when their kids went to college. There are no female MEs here who are moms. When I have a baby, I'll take my 12 weeks of combined short term disability and unpaid FMLA, and put my kid in daycare and head back to work. I have no choice but to work full time. Finances won't permit me to drop to part time, as much as I'd like to - I earn more than Mr. Bug and I carry our insurance.

We're in sort of a situation where we feel we don't want to wait much longer to start a family. We've been married for almost 4.5 years and we already wish we hadn't waited this long. We want to be DONE by the time I'm 35. Mr. Bug is already 30 and by the time I get pregnant I'll likely be 29. I also have no intention of having less than 2 years between kids, and we'd like to have 2 or 3 (if we can afford a third). The numbers game is starting to add some pressure in the last year or so.

It's pretty clear to me that I don't want to become a manager. I'd like to stay on the technical career path at work. In theory, having children will impact my job a lot less than if I went to a management path - far less travel, a normal 40 hour workweek rather than a 60 hour workweek, and less overall stress. I still want to progress in my career, though. Right now I worry because my boss wants to put me up for promotion next year and I may well be pregnant enough by then that I can't hide it. I worry that I'll be mommy-tracked if I'm up for promotion when management knows I'm pregnant. Kind of like, "Why promote her when she's going out on leave in a few months?" That's discrimination of course, but it doesn't mean it can't happen. They'd just find another reason to put on paper for not promoting me. I'm also heading up a pretty significant effort next year and the prospect of needing to hand it off to someone else for several months while I'm out on leave is daunting.

My career is important to me, but so is having a family.


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## maryannette (Aug 6, 2009)

CivE Bricky said:


> We know we can support ourselves and don't need to go find someone to take care of us, although most of us are interested in marriage, we don't NEED it.
> Lots of my female engineer friends (married and not) joke about needing a wife....


I think women who can support themselves can have less problems in marriage. You don't own me and I don't own you, so we need to be nice to each other to make this work. You can't hold anything over my head.

I used to joke about our nanny being my wife. I really hate to degrade the definition of wife like that. She did what some people consider "wife duties".


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## MA_PE (Aug 6, 2009)

Mary :) said:


> I think women who can support themselves can have less problems in marriage. You don't own me and I don't own you, so we need to be nice to each other to make this work. You can't hold anything over my head.
> I used to joke about our nanny being my wife. I really hate to degrade the definition of wife like that. She did what some people consider "wife duties".


sounds like you husband was a lucky guy! :GotPics:

Mary: I hope you know I'm only joshing with you.


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## jmbeck (Aug 6, 2009)

> She did what some people consider "wife duties"


Yes, we all saw it. Yes, it's too easy. Don't bother.


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## MGX (Aug 6, 2009)

Do female engineers have "The Knack"?


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## jmbeck (Aug 6, 2009)

MGX said:


> Do female engineers have "The Knack"?


I don't think so. If they did, they'd be paid better.

I kid, I kid.


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## Dleg (Aug 6, 2009)

jregieng said:


> In other words, the woman delays having children in her life, the closer you get to achieving the zero-population growth model."
> So, if you think about it, women engineers are spot-on in an environmentally, socially responsible way.
> 
> JR


NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!

Don't give in to this crazy idea! The only people who will actually follow this "advice" are the smart and educated of the world. Meanwhile, the idiots continue to breed unchecked.

Go rent "Idiocracy" if you haven't seen it yet. Women engineers: reproduce!!!! The world needs more of you!



CivE Bricky said:


> Lots of my female engineer friends (married and not) joke about needing a wife....our society just isn't set up with the support structures that we all want....except for the lucky few who have available and competent extended family willing to help out.


Well, for all its drawbacks, a "guest worker" program like Bush was advocating has, at the very least, this advantage: affordable houseworkers. Supposedly Bush was modeling his proposal on the system used here where I live, where we have been able to afford a full-time, live-in "wife" which has enabled my true wife to work a fulfilling career and dedicate the necessary time to it.

Unfortunately, it was too good to last and the Dems took it away from us the moment they got the majority in Congress 2.5 years ago.... Now we have only 2 years left until all the houseworkers are deported..... My son will be 8 by then, so maybe we squeeked through.


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## tymr (Aug 6, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


I don't think it's typical. I know as many women engineers with children as without. For me, I love my job. I can slide into workaholic mode with little to no effort, which isn't conducive to family life. I like kids but they're not for me. I enjoy my mobile, spontaneous lifestyle, and I know that's not for everyone either.


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## CivE Bricky (Aug 6, 2009)

MGX said:


> Do female engineers have "The Knack"?



very thought-provoking question.....

My husband is one of the natural engineers who can make anything work and even predict with reasonable accuracy how long it will take him to invent a unique, never been done successful solution. And he's good enough with theory that he can translate between the math PhD's and the lab techs or machine shop staff and have real work get done. He's the guy when no one can figure out if it's the software, the hardware design or faulty or off-spec components. There's very very few of those natural kinds of engineers in the world. I'd say he's got some version of the knack shown in the clip.

I don't have the strong interest and overwhelming curiousity about mechanical and electrical components, but I do see the big pic and can come to really understand how it works. I have mad 3D visualization skills and can do the systems overview checks pretty easily...(will users know what to do? will people like how it looks? how do we up the design life while controlling costs? what will that do to the construction schedule?)

I think I concurrently annoyed and made my (engineer) Dad proud when he was putting up a mega radio antennae and struggling a bit with his brother to lift it and I asked why he didn't throw another pulley into the mix because that would be so much easier.

I was the one who realized my husband and I could install a dishwasher on the no sink side of the stove by tying into the washing machine plumbing just below the kitchen--who needs a stinkin' sink?

I easily could reason through all the potential cheating methods for a parking system and corresponding hardware/software fraud control tactics and their feasibility in operational requirements and install costs. (Will users put up with waving a card more than once? How much will antipassback annoy the honest parker who leaves after hours when the gate is up but forgets to use the card? I just get all that.)

So maybe I have a different "the knack" related to integrating design and construction with the real world, picking up new material and judging someone else's take on stuff I may not be well-versed in....I do that by asking the right questions and really listening to the answers. If I get the snap judgement that "He's just guessing what's wrong and how to fix it and hoping I take him at face value," I'm nearly always right.

Other women engineers? I'd say a majority have some sort of knack, but it might not be the tinkering, fix stuff knack (although some women for sure do have that one--I lived with a female EE savant for 5 years). Especially for young engineers, sometimes the knack gets missed or overlooked by others, or even hidden for a variety of reasons..that's just sad -- if you can even tell it's happening. Sometimes women lose their confidence or just get tired of fighting to be heard. And I see that happening right in my own office....people will go two rooms over to ask some guy stuff that I know as well or better than he does. I can get annoyed or I can be happy my work got interrupted one less time. I can assume it's because they don't respect what I know or I assume they started a conversation earlier and it just makes sense to keep going with the original participants. Being everyone's favorite go-to is a double-edged sword.....as my husband well knows.

So direct answer to your literal question? for me, probably not. But...I've probably got a different knack that's just as relevant and valuable.


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## nashbmattPE (Aug 7, 2009)

nicely said CivE Bricky


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## Katiebug (Aug 7, 2009)

Dleg said:


> NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!!
> Don't give in to this crazy idea! The only people who will actually follow this "advice" are the smart and educated of the world. Meanwhile, the idiots continue to breed unchecked.
> 
> Go rent "Idiocracy" if you haven't seen it yet. Women engineers: reproduce!!!! The world needs more of you!


Amen to that. The movie was meant to be a comedy, but Mr. Bug and I looked at each other and went "Damn, that's how it's sort of shaping up to be..."

Re: being handy/having The Knack. I do feel like I have it, but not to the extent that some other engineers do (both male and female). Mr. Bug is not the handiest guy - he can manage a cordless drill and a Skilsaw but that's about it. When it comes to home improvements, the burden is usually on me to figure out how to do things correctly. It's cool with both of us, that's just how it is. He's not an engineer. I do find that I'll look at objects/devices/systems and puzzle them over in the back of my head. I like to think about how things work; I've always been fascinated by that sort of thing. I'm just not one for tinkering outside of the office.

It's funny how a car salesman will react to a woman. I suspect most of them think women are vapid airheads who couldn't possibly have any idea what the difference is between an inline four and a flat four. I saw this firsthand at the Subaru dealership on Tuesday. Mr. Bug found it hilarious, especially since the salesman talked to him like he was in the know and treated me like a dumb blonde - "Ma'am, let me tell you what all wheel drive means. Sir, am I right that ladies just don't know why they need AWD?" It was absurd! I did Formula SAE in college, I'm quite familiar with cars. Even if I wasn't, there's no reason to treat any random woman in the dealership like she's a moron.


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## MGX (Aug 7, 2009)

That's a black mark against car salespeople for certain. I think selling cars is the only sales field where absolutely no knowledge of your product is necessary.

I think my girlfriend is a closeted engineer. While she studies meteorology, she is constantly thinking of better designs for things or how global-scale systems work and how we humans might mess around with them. She does have the knack to some extent, but better theoretical performance.

In vo-tech a girl was in my graduating class who could outshine most anyone, myself included. The jocks in class were really threatened by her, probably because they were so stupid and their performance proved it. Her mechanical intuition lead her right to where whatever malfunction was.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 7, 2009)

I'm starting to see a little bit of the knack in my daughter. She's 18 months right now. My son (3-1/2) definitely has it. She copies everything he does so it's hard to tell if she is imitating him or really has it. For instance, I was replacing the lift motor in my grandmother's car the other day and both of them were out there helping me. I was using a multimeter to determine whether it was the swich or the motor that was screwed up and I really think they understood my explanation as to what they were doing. My daughter kept saying I'll fix it, I'll fix it. They can both operate the home theater (know what buttons to press in what order to make everything work correctly). This morning my wife finished getting ready and found them both in the living room watching a documentary on airplanes. The both can name most of the major parts on an airplane now.


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## maryannette (Aug 7, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> ... found them both in the living room watching a documentary on airplanes. The both can name most of the major parts on an airplane now.


That's pretty cool. The hardest thing is to allow them to develop in their way and not force them into what you would have them be.


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## Chucktown PE (Aug 7, 2009)

^^ Agreed. My dad is a veterinarian and I know he wanted one of us to follow in his footsteps but it doesn't look like that is going to happen. He never pressured us and just kind of let us do our own thing. Two of us are engineers and the youngest starts engineering school this year.

The thing that gets me with my kids is if I ever say the word "fix" they are both wanting to help. Yesterday I was fixing the tires on the jogging stroller. They were both out there trying to figure out how to use a wrench and playing around with the air pump to see how it worked.

I bought them a little bath toy as a stocking stuffer this year for Christmas. It is a little pump similar to the old red hand well pumps. One my proudest moments was at the pool last week when a little girl was asking my son what the parts were. He knew the terms and used them correctly (piston, ball check, seal ring, nozzle). I was absolutely amazed, so was my wife and the other mom.


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## nashbmattPE (Aug 7, 2009)

my son (22) graduated college this year with an economics degree at 5 he said he didn't want to do what daddy does. my daughter (16) wanted to do engineering up until last year now she wants to do nursing. i am very proud of each one. my daughter was a little bit of a surprise to me because she was always right with me fixing everything, but if you think about it a nurse fixes the ailing person. so again i am very proud of each one of them.


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## maryannette (Aug 7, 2009)

Good parents help their children grow up so they will be happy, independent adults. When they become happy, independent adults, we should be very proud of them.


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## Supe (Aug 10, 2009)

Womgineers: Is it bad that some of my friends have started calling me Dorian Gray?


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## BluSkyy (Aug 10, 2009)

Katiebug said:


> Mr. Bug found it hilarious, especially since the salesman talked to him like he was in the know and treated me like a dumb blonde - "Ma'am, let me tell you what all wheel drive means. Sir, am I right that ladies just don't know why they need AWD?" It was absurd! I did Formula SAE in college, I'm quite familiar with cars. Even if I wasn't, there's no reason to treat any random woman in the dealership like she's a moron.


He may have been trying the "divide and conquer" negotiating strategy. Salesmen are devious like that.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Aug 10, 2009)

What, like get the women so convinced she needs AWD (even if she doesn't) that she will make it a sticking point to the husband, and he will eventually just relent and say OK?

That does sound like something a salesman would do.

The pendulum totally swings the other way when you go furniture shopping. I bought a dining room set last winter and until I spoke up about it and asking some pointed questions, the saleswoman basically regarding me as the clueless guy stuck there with his wife who will do nothing but spill stuff on the table once we get it.

Same thing with kitchen appliances.


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## roadwreck (Aug 10, 2009)

VTEnviro said:


> Same thing with kitchen appliances.


and scrap booking supplies


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## Katiebug (Aug 10, 2009)

Yeah, the Subie salesman was a bit red-faced after he finally got around to asking me what I do for a living. I lean towards him just being a pushy dude; he's called me twice already today to pester me about buying the Forester (I haven't made up my mind yet).

Car salesmen aren't dumb; they know that the average woman is swayed heavily by things like safety and interior comfort AND that women hold considerable veto power over a family vehicle purchase. Since this will be our family hauler, those things _are_ very important to me in this car purchase. I do want AWD, I want to know about the LATCH attachments for car seats, I want to know about the airbags and other safety features. I just don't need it explained to me as if there was _no_ possible way that the little woman could understand the mere concept of all wheel drive. I'm all for being an educated consumer. I feel like a better way would have been to ask if we had questions about AWD, rather than to just assume that the husband knew about it and the wife didn't.

Re: scrap booking supplies. I assume buying those is like going to a yarn shop? I don't drag Mr. Bug to those; it's just torture for him and there's only so much yarn petting that the man can handle before he makes his escape to the car.

Re: furniture shopping. We had the same experience where the salesman directed all comments and questions to me, treating Mr. Bug like he was an accessory of sorts. Made me nuts. In the end, it's been our cat and dog who've scratched the new furniture, not him!


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## Guest (Aug 10, 2009)

Katiebug said:


> Car salesmen aren't dumb; they know that the average woman is swayed heavily by things like safety and interior comfort AND that women hold considerable veto power over a family vehicle purchase. Since this will be our family hauler, those things _are_ very important to me in this car purchase.


Interesting ....

FMJR was just telling me yesterday that when I purchase a new vehicle she would like me to get something a bit sturdier than my crappy POS Kia. She said she really didn't care about the gas mileage or the effect it would have on the environment ... she was just concerned about what might happen to me if I were to get into a car accident since I do a fair bit of travel.

Wow .. it must be like :wub: ... or something. 

JR


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## Dleg (May 10, 2010)

This thread deserves a bump


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## engineergurl (Jun 5, 2010)

Okay ladies I've got a woman to woman question. Having seen nothing but military doctors for the past five years I have finally been granted the request to switch to a civillian practice. I'm not sure if anyone out there is familiar with the military care provided to dependents, but you make an appointment, and you talk to the doctor about that specific item, and then you leave. If you have questions regarding anything else, it requires another appointment (I have to say this is based on my experience only). With this said, I'm not too sure what to expect or what questions to ask at my appointment since I've not had a "physical" in nearly 12 years (other then the obvious once a year female appointment) and I want to make sure that I can tell if I've chosen the correct practice to go to and that this appointment is productive.

I am assuming at my current age (30) I should have my cholesterol checked, since that tends to be a problem with both parents and grand parents, as well as heart disease... diabetes runs in the family as well as thyroid issues and I have already been diagnosed with OCS and have had two cysts removed off my spine over the years. So I know to ask about all these things.

How much time should I expect to be able to spend with the Doctor addressing my concerns and questions? Are there any other common tests that should be run that you are aware of that I should make sure I ask for? How long should I expect to have to wait for any results? Any other advice?


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## klk (Jun 7, 2010)

That's a great question. You seem to already know all of the things to ask that I would think of (with respect to things to get tested for). I would also add iron to the list.

How long you spend asking questions can vary from doctor to doctor. One thing you'll probably find is that you'll go in for your first appointment where they weigh you, take your blood pressure, and ask questions regarding diet and lifestyle. Then they'll order the bloodwork, and then if anything is out of the ordinary, you'll have to come back for a follow up visit to get the results and figure out treatment if necessary. As a new patient, they'll want to meet with you first prior to ordering bloodwork, which means an extra visit.

I have three doctors I see on a regular basis:

1) My OB, for obvious reasons.

2) My Allergist, because my allergies were horrific and I ended up doing immunotherapy (allergy shots).

3) My primary care physician: he's treating my hypothyroidism, and I also see him for anything else (injuries, illnesses, etc). Whenever I go in to see my PCP, I usually have a list of questions/issues unrelated to my actual reason for seeing him. I figure I should get as much as I can out of one co-pay.

I think the most important thing about finding a good doctor is to make sure you agree with their general treatment philosophy, whatever that might be for you. For example, I tend to prefer doctors who are willing to prescribe me drugs if it will make me feel better (I don't request antibiotics for colds or other nonsense like that). My OB and allergist both are willing to be proactive with my care so I don't have to suffer through whatever it is that ails me. My PCP on the other hand, will only prescribe stuff if its "really bad". When my thyroid levels came back high, he didn't even want to treat it since it "wasn't high enough" compared to some of his other patients, although I felt like I was having symptoms and wanted to be treated for it to see if it helped. It was only when I reminded him that we were trying to have children that he reluctantly agreed to treat it.

However, if you are like my husband and like to suffer through every illness or ailment with as few of drugs as possible, you won't be happy seeing a doctor who wants to prescribe lots of drugs.

So, depending what you want from the doctor (with respect to their treatment style) I would ask them about their treatment philosophy to see if it meshes well with yours. If you tend to have recurring issues (for example, sinus infections) ask the doctor what are the thresholds for treatment and how they would go about treating you.


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## neabob (Jun 7, 2010)

Capt Worley PE said:


> The women engineers I know tend to wait a good bit later to have kids (in their mid thirties), or have none at all. I've always wondered why. And, is it typical.


I had my first at 28 and my second (and last) at 30. I've never been one to let others tell me how to raise my kids so either the company I worked for understood that my babies came first, and were ok with that, or I found another company. The place I work for now is super family-friendly so things are good.

Truthfully, I've found it's hard to get people to take me seriously until I looked older. Having kids can knock down a mama engineer's credibility a bit (ie will she stay? does she care?) and so being a bit established first eased that transition.

My mom, a physicist, always told me that she found folks were much more respectful of her abilities when she had gray hair - that's why she never dyed it at all. Me, I'm hoping for Emmylou Harris hair.


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## engineergurl (Jun 7, 2010)

Thanks for the input klk!

I can honestly say I don't think I've ever left a doc appointment with out a perscription since I've been in the military system... but they prescribe us motrin and benadryl and other over the counter drugs so you don't have to purchase them out of pocket... I hadn't considered anything about what I really want because I've just been happy with what was available.... something to think about!!!


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## Ona (Jun 8, 2010)

One of the items that you might consider is actually how much time the doctor spends with you as well.

I find that when I go, I get weighed, have my bp taken, and initial questions asked by a nurse (i.e. why are you here? anything hurt? etc). After, the doctor comes in and chats with you. I personally have found that doctors who are D.O.'s are more whole-istic - meaning that they do try to look at the whole picture rather than smaller symptoms.

For example, I had a problem with my saliva duct 8 years ago. The dr I had at the time (not a D.O.) sent me to a specialist. They said that the duct kept getting infected so I was on antibiotics for 8 months! Finally, the specialist said; "well, we've tried, so now we're just going to have to go in and remove that salive duct - it's OK, you have 3 others."

I then went to a different dr (who was a D.O) and he did a full work up on me and explained that he wanted to check everything out. He found that I have one of those autoimmune diseases that affects your parotid gland which would squeeze my salive duct - it was never getting infected.

This might be TMI, but just my two cents.


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## engineergurl (Jun 8, 2010)

Ona said:


> One of the items that you might consider is actually how much time the doctor spends with you as well.
> I find that when I go, I get weighed, have my bp taken, and initial questions asked by a nurse (i.e. why are you here? anything hurt? etc). After, the doctor comes in and chats with you. I personally have found that doctors who are D.O.'s are more whole-istic - meaning that they do try to look at the whole picture rather than smaller symptoms.
> 
> For example, I had a problem with my saliva duct 8 years ago. The dr I had at the time (not a D.O.) sent me to a specialist. They said that the duct kept getting infected so I was on antibiotics for 8 months! Finally, the specialist said; "well, we've tried, so now we're just going to have to go in and remove that salive duct - it's OK, you have 3 others."
> ...


This is interesting because I wasn't aware of what DO meant, but after researching it and examining the practice I choose, there are three MD's on staff, two DO's and a PA. (The gentleman who started the practice and the CEO are the DO's) The lady that I will be seeing is an MD, and her bio says that she focuses on Women's Health... when I made the appointment, the staff was very helpful and asked a lot of questions and seemed to search for an appointment with this Doc so I am assuming that the receptionist was taking the time to select the one that would fit my needs best (I hope). The practice came highly recommended by many co-workers, one who's life was saved by the staff.

I can honestly say that I'm actually excited to get some questions answered, although I don't think anything is "wrong" with me more then I already know, I have plenty of annoying things that would be awesome to understand the root of the issues...


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2012)

I am reviving this one ....

Dear ladies of EB,

Now that I am back on the dating scene, one of my criteria that I feel is important is that she can cook very well. Not creating any other expectation other than when she does cook, it is good.

Does this seem unreaonsable or unduly sexists? I am complimented on my cooking often, so I guess I would look for the same in a potential date.

Sincerely,

In search of GREAT food


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## YMZ PE (Jul 8, 2012)

I don't see how that's sexist. If being a talented cook makes a woman more attractive to you, I think it's reasonable to have that as a selection criterion.

Refusing to date someone who isn't a woman, now THAT is sexist.


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## engineergurl (Jul 8, 2012)

I think that as long as you are not expecting a gourmet meal each and every night.

It would be sexist for you to say to a woman who wants to work outside of the home that she can't because you expect your laundry done and a 6 course meal on the table each and every night. It would probably be a bad thing to expect those things even if she did work out of the home.

Food and Cooking could be a common interest, and it's good to have a mate that you have common interests with... but if you find the perfect woman in all other aspects, and she can't cook... would that be a deal breaker?


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 8, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> Refusing to date someone who isn't a woman, now THAT is sexist.


I think that's also know as :f_115m_e45d7af: . Not that there's anything wrong with that.

I'm with EG on this one - I love to cook, and love to try new kinds of food and recipes. I appreciate a woman who also has that in common with me. I'm not interested in a diet of Hamburger Helper and Kraft Dinner every night. This was one of the things I like about my ex. I cooked savory food well, she was a dessert champ. Teaming up in the kitchen is fun to me, especially once you've done so enough time where you can anticipate the other's move.

Plus chicks love a dude than can cook.

And ones that use pics of his dog squeezing a teddy bear as his av. Sometimes it takes a canine to get a bit of the feline.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 8, 2012)

I cook diner maybe once a week. I tend to make things if we are using the oven and mr snick if it is the grill. Cooking can be a great togeher thing but if you are expecting diner to be cooked for you everynight you will be sad and alone...just saying. Evening when I was on maternity leave and home I didn't make diner.

If you just want her to at lease know how to cook I dont think that is bad. Mr snicks best friend and his wife, neither can cook ANYTHING....they burn pasta.


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## knight1fox3 (Jul 8, 2012)

We both alternate doing the grocery shopping. Whomever does the shopping basically does the cooking. We both like it so it works out well.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 8, 2012)

I'm all for Tuesday night tacos or pasta with sauce for weeknight dishes, but I like to make something more elaborate on weekends or if company is coming over.


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## Krakosky (Jul 8, 2012)

^ this. I used to cook a lot more before studying for the PE and then moving. Need to get back at it. I always feel better about myself when I make something for dinner rather than eat out or eat something cheap. I wish I had someone to cook for me sometimes tho.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 8, 2012)

Cooking for one sucks.

It's more of a chore necessary to do rather than something enjoyable.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 8, 2012)

VTEnviro said:


> Cooking for one sucks.
> 
> It's more of a chore necessary to do rather than something enjoyable.


Yup. I usually only cook big meals that are easily reheatable. Otherwise, I'll just make sammiches or some other single-serving meal. I do cook for family, friends and neighbors on occasion, but not enough to keep my skills sharp.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 8, 2012)

It's tougher in the summertime to cook a giant batch of chili or ziti or stuff that makes lots of leftovers though. I've got AC, but I hate slaving over the stove in August.

I'm big on chef's salad. Quick, easy, cheap, and no cooking involved.


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## Guest (Jul 8, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> I don't see how that's sexist. If being a talented cook makes a woman more attractive to you, I think it's reasonable to have that as a selection criterion.


Yes, yes it does. 



YMZ PE said:


> Refusing to date someone who isn't a woman, now THAT is sexist.


Ouch ...



engineergurl said:


> I think that as long as you are not expecting a gourmet meal each and every night.


Absolutely not ... and not even to cook every night. I think they just should be able to cook. The ex Mrs. JR #2 wasn't such a good cook. Despite some of the other problems, I think her lack of culinary skill led to some of our problems. Not directly ... but indirectly ....



engineergurl said:


> Food and Cooking could be a common interest, and it's good to have a mate that you have common interests with... but if you find the perfect woman in all other aspects, and she can't cook... would that be a deal breaker?


I see this as a common interest to help build a relationship but certainly not an absolute dealbreaker. It just seems almost like a good screening measure ...



VTEnviro said:


> Plus chicks love a dude than can cook.
> 
> And ones that use pics of his dog squeezing a teddy bear as his av. Sometimes it takes a canine to get a bit of the feline.


I will have to remember that ...



snickerd3 said:


> Cooking can be a great togeher thing but if you are expecting diner to be cooked for you everynight you will be sad and alone...just saying. Evening when I was on maternity leave and home I didn't make diner.


My only real expectation is that if you are going to cook .... it should be good so the potential date doesn't have to feel sheepish about offering a bad meal or I should feel obliged to say, um yeah, not so much.



knight1fox3 said:


> We both alternate doing the grocery shopping. Whomever does the shopping basically does the cooking. We both like it so it works out well.


I think you are accelerating things on me just a little bit there buddy! Still dating ... 



Krakosky said:


> ^ this. I used to cook a lot more before studying for the PE and then moving. Need to get back at it. I always feel better about myself when I make something for dinner rather than eat out or eat something cheap. I wish I had someone to cook for me sometimes tho.


I really got out of routinely cooking when I got married and then my wife just got lazy and wanted to eat out all of the time. So, I am forcing myself back into cooking ... I mostly like poultry, fish, and seafood but still have some lean beef occasionally. After all, it is Michigan, right?!

I motivate myself with cooking if I know it is going to come out okay. 



wilheldp_PE said:


> Yup. I usually only cook big meals that are easily reheatable. Otherwise, I'll just make sammiches or some other single-serving meal. I do cook for family, friends and neighbors on occasion, but not enough to keep my skills sharp.


I have never handled eating the same thing for more than two nights in a row very well. I have really tried, but it doesn't work for me.


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## YMZ PE (Jul 8, 2012)

jregieng said:


> YMZ PE said:
> 
> 
> > Refusing to date someone who isn't a woman, now THAT is sexist.
> ...


My point was, who cares if your criteria are "sexist"? People shouldn't be judged for their dating preferences - it's not like you have control over what you're attracted to. A guy I liked told me he would never date me because he didn't like girls of my race. No fault of his, so I moved on but we're still buddies. I refused to date any guys who didn't have more earning potential than me, which I knew was sexist but not something I could force myself to get past.

I'm reading this thread for the first time today and it's been pretty entertaining. Props to JR for reviving it so the noobs can experience it anew!


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## snickerd3 (Jul 9, 2012)

Krakosky said:


> I wish I had someone to cook for me sometimes tho.


if we ever won the lottery, hiring a personal chef to cook diner during the week is the first thing we would do....kind of sad that we both came to this idea first of all the things we could do.


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## Krakosky (Jul 9, 2012)

On a separate but semi related note....JR, where are you finding these single ladies? I have no idea where to find single decent guys.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 9, 2012)

JR is a chick magnet, always has been. I'm jealous as hell.

All I have are random people who don't know me trying to play matchmaker.

It starts with, "I know this girl..."

And always involves one or more of the following:

A. Has a 'healthy appetite' for life

B. The new medications are really helping her

C. Looks pretty good considering how many miles she has on the tires

D. After what that crazy ex did to her last boyfriend, it's a good thing he's doing 10-15 in Supermax.

E. She's got the cutest little boy. No clue who the father is, but he's sweet nonetheless

F. She drinks herself half blind every night. What can I say, it's her thing.

G. ...and that's why they call her Sandpaper Sally


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## Krakosky (Jul 9, 2012)

^ wow. Maybe being single isn't that bad.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 9, 2012)

Female engineers become irresistible at the age of consent and remain that way until about thirty minutes after their clinical death. Longer if it's a warm day. -- Scott Adams


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 9, 2012)

He must not have gone to college with the ones I went with. Woof.

Why do you think I got such good grades? No distractions.


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## Rockettt (Jul 9, 2012)

hahaha I hear ya there.... you keep your eyes to your books when theres nothing to look at!


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## Ble_PE (Jul 9, 2012)

Reading this once again reminds me how lucky I am to have tricked Mrs. ble into dating and then marrying me.


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## envirotex (Jul 9, 2012)

However...the women of this site are making a babes of engineering calendar. Or so I've heard.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 9, 2012)

until there is a Dudes of Eb calendar there will be no babes of eb caledar


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## envirotex (Jul 9, 2012)

That sounds like a fair deal. But I'm not sure I want to see it.


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## snickerd3 (Jul 9, 2012)

exactly!!!!


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 9, 2012)

^No one wants to play "How many of VT's ribs are sticking out"?


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## Krakosky (Jul 9, 2012)

We need to plumpen you up a bit.


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## goodal (Jul 9, 2012)

This is a weird coincidence. You know how those off the wall thoughts go through your mind every now and then. The other day I went through the thought process of what I would look for in a wife if (God forbid) Mrs. Badal ever passed away. At the very top of the list was "Can she cook like the old Mrs. Badal?". I've got it pretty awsome. My wife takes care of the cooking, while me and the (three) boys take care of putting it away. I am pretty sure I could never get it again as good as I do now. Thank God for small miracles.


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## Guest (Jul 9, 2012)

Krakosky said:


> On a separate but semi related note....JR, where are you finding these single ladies? I have no idea where to find single decent guys.


LOL!!

It all depends on what you want to do. I see you have qualified you are looking for decent guys .... it is generally tough to find decent people these days to be honest with you. I liken it to peeling an onion .... it almost seems like an infinite number of layers that you have to get through. Patience and perserverance.

For me, I don't actually have to be dating someone - I would be just as happy getting out with someone to do activities. I think it is easy to fall into lots of traps if you aren't careful about being clear and honest with yourself about who/why you want to go out with a particular person.



VTEnviro said:


> JR is a chick magnet, always has been. I'm jealous as hell.


LOL!! I am like the little lost puppy .... there is something generally adorable about it.



YMZ PE said:


> My point was, who cares if your criteria are "sexist"? People shouldn't be judged for their dating preferences - it's not like you have control over what you're attracted to. A guy I liked told me he would never date me because he didn't like girls of my race. No fault of his, so I moved on but we're still buddies. I refused to date any guys who didn't have more earning potential than me, which I knew was sexist but not something I could force myself to get past.
> 
> I'm reading this thread for the first time today and it's been pretty entertaining. Props to JR for reviving it so the noobs can experience it anew!


No problem! Lots of good threads out there like this one.


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## mudpuppy (Jul 10, 2012)

jregieng said:


> I am complimented on my cooking often, so I guess I would look for the same in a potential date.


You cook??!?!? Since when???


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## Guest (Jul 10, 2012)

Shush!! You just haven't been around to see it.


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## engineergurl (Jul 10, 2012)

I make good Chocolate Chip Cookies


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## ElCid03 (Jul 11, 2012)

With or without walnuts?

Most of the girls I went to college with were from the former Eastern Bloc; let's just say East German Olympic Teamish.


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## engineergurl (Jul 11, 2012)

The nuts all depend on who I'm making them for...


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## MA_PE (Jul 11, 2012)

I prefer the female cookies. no nuts.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 11, 2012)

ElCid03 said:


> Most of the girls I went to college with were from the former Eastern Bloc; let's just say East German Olympic Teamish.


I think most of the girls I went to college with were from Mordor.


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## Freon (Jul 11, 2012)

Granted I went to Texas, and we all know that Austin is the land of beautiful women.  But we had quite a few stunning young ladies in the ChemE Department.


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## envirotex (Jul 11, 2012)

Most of the girls in UT engineering were not trolls. You see, the girls at Texas were smart...If you did didn't go to the engineering buildings you didn't have a chance at getting a husband with a good degree...


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## Rockettt (Jul 11, 2012)

"help keep austin weird" haha. dont think they need any help!

every woman is beautiful in his or her own way. haha!


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## Krakosky (Jul 11, 2012)

Freon said:


> Granted I went to Texas, and we all know that Austin is the land of beautiful women. But we had quite a few stunning young ladies in the ChemE Department.



On a side note: In my opinion the guys were cuter in TX than I've seen thus far in MI. There also appeared to be a larger community of young people. (DFW area)


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## mudpuppy (Jul 11, 2012)

jregieng said:


> Shush!! You just haven't been around to see it.


Apparently not in the past three YEARS.


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## YMZ PE (Jul 11, 2012)

Civil engineers were generally attractive at both of the Universities of California I went to. Though there were a couple times we did field work with students from other schools, which made us wonder whether women outside of LA and the Bay Area care about not looking frumpy. I've heard the same thing from some of my friends in medical school.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 11, 2012)

My school was interesting like that. Instead of people stumbling into 8 AM class in sweatpants, they showed up looking like they just left a night club. In some cases, this was true. I can't tell you how many times I'd be walking from my car to the engineering school and see my classmates stumbling out of the subway station across the street. Fortunately, they were on enough speed or whatever that they had no problem staying awake.


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## engineergurl (Jul 11, 2012)

my second year, there was 5 woman in the whole school, and two of them were married, one was in her late 30's and the other her early 40's... and then me....


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## Rockettt (Jul 11, 2012)

Great odds for you!


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## pbrme (Jul 11, 2012)

Caught myself up on this thread, good read.

We only had three girls in the mechanical program at my school (out of a class of 24). One of them was in the "stinky" club, which also consisted of one other buck. I swear those two were competing for the most stinky unhealthy/hygienenic classmate award. Both of them were clueless, and I doubt they even passed their EIT's, let alone received their degrees.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 11, 2012)

As my ex wife used to say, the odds are good, but the goods are odd.


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## Krakosky (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm odd and prime.


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## MA_PE (Jul 11, 2012)

Are you 17, 29, or 37?


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## engineergurl (Jul 11, 2012)

This is the ask a female engineer anything thread... probably the only place acceptable to ask that question...


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## Krakosky (Jul 11, 2012)

29


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## Rockettt (Jul 11, 2012)

Then onto ...oh my....thirties!


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## Krakosky (Jul 11, 2012)

Let the downward spiral commence.


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## Rockettt (Jul 11, 2012)

25 was my worst. 30 was no problem. ! I find it easier to deal with and associate my age with the women I date haha. So im still young at heart!


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## Master slacker (Jul 11, 2012)

Rockettt said:


> 25 was my worst. 30 was no problem. ! I find it easier to deal with and associate my age with the women I date haha. So im still young at heart!


Half your age plus four is the low limit for dating age of ladies. Just keep that in mind.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 11, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> Rockettt said:
> 
> 
> > 25 was my worst. 30 was no problem. ! I find it easier to deal with and associate my age with the women I date haha. So im still young at heart!
> ...


fixt

An 18 year old should not be dating a 13yr old.


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## Master slacker (Jul 11, 2012)

Rules is rules. I can't change it.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 11, 2012)

I believe the "half plus 7" rule was posted somewhere else here on eb.com. I was simply restating that rule.


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## Master slacker (Jul 11, 2012)

Well... I don't know what to say except that it's wrong. The +4 has been around since at least Marie Antoinette. She got married at 13.


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## mudpuppy (Jul 11, 2012)

Half +7 is quoted on xkcd.com. Your argument is irrevelevant.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 11, 2012)




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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

Krakosky said:


> On a side note: In my opinion the guys were cuter in TX than I've seen thus far in MI. There also appeared to be a larger community of young people. (DFW area)


That is generally known to be true in the younger, upwardly mobile community. 



mudpuppy said:


> Half +7 is quoted on xkcd.com. Your argument is irrevelevant.


FTW


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

Dear ladies of EB,

I have been thinking about how to keep things in a relationship from becoming routine. It is too easy to get caught up in day-to-day activities that keep you away from being, shall we say, a bit more spontaneous.

I am really not big into giving flowers and gifts seem to be more catered towards celebrating special milestones.

What I would like to do is simply be more spontaneous and just go somewhere. However, I get stuck in the planning part of this - any thoughts about how to keep the "surprise" factor in tact while working out schedules?

-Really Trying my Hand at This Romance Stuff


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## ajosh (Jul 11, 2012)

Here is a question?

My wife don't want me to drink. Not that i am an alcoholic, or drink a beer a day. I drink maybe a beer once in six months , on some social event or something. She cares for my health, but i don't think this might be a health hazard.

Any thoughts?


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## frazil (Jul 11, 2012)

I'm at a meeting all day today and tomorrow and I'm the only female in a room full of crusty old men. Well to be fair, most of them aren't that old.


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## engineergurl (Jul 11, 2012)

ajosh said:


> Here is a question?
> 
> My wife don't want me to drink. Not that i am an alcoholic, or drink a beer a day. I drink maybe a beer once in six months , on some social event or something. She cares for my health, but i don't think this might be a health hazard.
> 
> Any thoughts?


you poor poor man... maybe get a new wife? (j/k)


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## EM_PS (Jul 11, 2012)

ajosh said:


> Here is a question?
> 
> My wife don't want me to drink. Not that i am an alcoholic, or drink a beer a day. I drink maybe a beer once in six months , on some social event or something. She cares for my health, but i don't think this might be a health hazard.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Not that I'm a female engineer....or even an engineer - Tell her that 1-2 adult beverages a day is healthier than zero. Also, beer is as good for you as red wine - again, in the moderate 1-2 beverages a day. Builds up the Killer T cells or something


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 12, 2012)

Dexman PE said:


>


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## MA_PE (Jul 12, 2012)

ajosh said:


> Here is a question?
> 
> My wife don't want me to drink. Not that i am an alcoholic, or drink a beer a day. I drink maybe a beer once in six months , on some social event or something. She cares for my health, but i don't think this might be a health hazard.
> 
> Any thoughts?


My thought is that you should have a beer and take some grammar lessons.


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## roadwreck (Jul 12, 2012)

engineergurl said:


> ajosh said:
> 
> 
> > Here is a question?
> ...


Seriously! I drink a beer or glass of wine (that's not :ghey: is it?) every day, usually with dinner. One drink every six months is not a problem at all. Your wife is nuts. :screwloose:


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## Rockettt (Jul 12, 2012)

Yea a beer or two at night is fine in my eyes though to all its a problem. Some say its too much and some say not enough! :respect:


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## mudpuppy (Jul 12, 2012)

jregieng said:


> Dear ladies of EB,
> 
> I have been thinking about how to keep things in a relationship from becoming routine. It is too easy to get caught up in day-to-day activities that keep you away from being, shall we say, a bit more spontaneous.
> 
> ...


I'm not a lady of EB but. . .

You don't have to go whole-hog with a big trip. In fact I've been told this kind of surprise may not be welcome. In my experience something small and simple can go a long way. Like flowers. Or mail her a card. Really, it sounds cheesy but but they eat this stuff up. If you really want to go for a surprise, cook her dinner or plan a quick day trip to a nearby place for a few hours--something with a romantic opportunity like watching a sunset or walking on the beach.


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## Krakosky (Jul 12, 2012)

Buy her a kitten. Irresistible.


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## roadwreck (Jul 12, 2012)

Krakosky said:


> Buy her a kitten. Irresistible.


Do not buy anything for someone that will require years of attention. My wife's mother got into the habit of buying pets as gifts...

...we acquired a rat one year for Christmas, the following year we got a cat, we were afraid a dog was next (and who knows where it would go from there) so we had to tell her to stop.


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## MA_PE (Jul 12, 2012)

Krakosky said:


> Buy her a kitten. Irresistible.


quid pro quo.

I like the way you think.


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## YMZ PE (Jul 12, 2012)

We try to be spontaneous yet organized by making a reservation at a restaurant we've never been to in a busy area like downtown or a shopping center, then walk around after dinner to find something to do. Sometimes we'll catch a movie, try an interesting dessert shop, check out a comedy club, etc. It keeps the fun factor intact while still having a set destination.



ajosh said:


> Here is a question?
> 
> My wife don't want me to drink. Not that i am an alcoholic, or drink a beer a day. I drink maybe a beer once in six months , on some social event or something. She cares for my health, but i don't think this might be a health hazard.
> 
> Any thoughts?


Does your wife worry a lot in general? If she does, I would try to ignore the nagging. You can also mention that studies suggest there are health benefits to drinking in moderation, such as protecting against bone density loss.


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## Rockettt (Jul 12, 2012)

NOOOOOO live animals unless discussed! haha that mistake will haunt you from 8-18 years depending on what it is hahaha. but yes kittens are irresistable....but maintenance is required! shots food litter....then vet bills and so on and so on.

my 2 pennies. I like low maintenance gifts.


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## willsee (Jul 12, 2012)

ajosh said:


> Here is a question?
> 
> My wife don't want me to drink. Not that i am an alcoholic, or drink a beer a day. I drink maybe a beer once in six months , on some social event or something. She cares for my health, but i don't think this might be a health hazard.
> 
> Any thoughts?


...

Seriously?


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## YMZ PE (Jul 12, 2012)

^ I'm going to be a wet blanket here and point out that this is very much a cultural thing. My mom finds reasons to nag my dad (and me) for pretty much anything beyond drinking water and staring at the wall.


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## roadwreck (Jul 12, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> ^ I'm going to be a wet blanket here and point out that this is very much a cultural thing.


Thank God my heritage doesn't frown upon drinking. In fact if you aren't drinking people think something is wrong with you.


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## Dexman PE PMP (Jul 12, 2012)

The only nagging I've faced from my better half is along the lines of "Why isn't the backyard landscaping done". The answer is simple and always the same, "I'm an engineer and I spend my fatty money on hookers &amp; blow."


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## Krakosky (Jul 12, 2012)

YMZ PE said:


> ^ I'm going to be a wet blanket here and point out that this is very much a cultural thing. My mom finds reasons to nag my dad (and me) for pretty much anything beyond drinking water and staring at the wall.


I feel your pain.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 12, 2012)

Where is PE-ness, his dating advice is solid gold.

As for spontaneous fun, here is my suggestion:

/&gt;http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/147621141.html


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## EM_PS (Jul 12, 2012)

mudpuppy said:


> jregieng said:
> 
> 
> > Dear ladies of EB,
> ...


JR, I'm about to punch you in the face w/ some tuff love:

LAY OFF WORRYING BOUT THIS SHIT TILL THE INK IS DRY ON YOUR F'N DIVORCE!! :16:


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## Master slacker (Jul 12, 2012)

jregieng said:


> mudpuppy said:
> 
> 
> > Half +7 is quoted on xkcd.com. Your argument is irrevelevant.
> ...


Meh, the youngest I ever dated was 17 anyway.


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## pbrme (Jul 12, 2012)

roadwreck said:


> YMZ PE said:
> 
> 
> > ^ I'm going to be a wet blanket here and point out that this is very much a cultural thing.
> ...


Amen brother


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## MA_PE (Jul 12, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> jregieng said:
> 
> 
> > mudpuppy said:
> ...


but it was last week!


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## kevo_55 (Jul 12, 2012)

Oh snap!


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## Fudgey (Jul 12, 2012)

Ladies of EB - I am perplexed about something. How do you manage to use a mouse and not scratch up your nail polish?


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## pbrme (Jul 12, 2012)

opcorn:


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 12, 2012)

Gross....who uses a mouse on a cord anymore.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 12, 2012)

MA_PE said:


> Master slacker said:
> 
> 
> > jregieng said:
> ...


I'm pretty sure he texted her yesterday with something like "noodz plz."


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## roadwreck (Jul 12, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> jregieng said:
> 
> 
> > mudpuppy said:
> ...


Wooderson?


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## Master slacker (Jul 12, 2012)

Well, I do keep getting older...


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## envirotex (Jul 12, 2012)

and I keep staying the same age.


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## RIP - VTEnviro (Jul 12, 2012)

29 again?


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## envirotex (Jul 12, 2012)

yes...


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## David Wooderson (Jul 12, 2012)

Master slacker said:


> jregieng said:
> 
> 
> > mudpuppy said:
> ...


That's what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age.


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## David Wooderson (Jul 12, 2012)

roadwreck said:


> Master slacker said:
> 
> 
> > jregieng said:
> ...


Just L-I-V-I-N


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