# Salary Negotiation



## DMB5mil (Jan 30, 2009)

Are there "rules" that professionals should follow when negotiating their salary at a new company?

I'm moving back home after getting my PE. I've got several offers of varying salary and benefit packages. If I counteroffer and a company meets my offer, am I obligated to accept their offer? Does it offend the company if I say no even after they agree to my counteroffer? What are the ground rules here?

Also, what approach has worked for you when it comes to negotiating your salary and what hasn't? Are companies more willing to give on any of the following items more often than another: salary, starting date, signing bonus, moving expenses?

Thanks,

Brian


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## udpolo15 (Jan 30, 2009)

I wouldn't worry about proposing a counteroffer and then not accepting it even if they agree, as long as you do it in good faith and are upfront about your situation. Don't try to get a better offer just to try to leverage another company you would rather work for. You don't have to make an explicit counteroffer. You can just say, "I was expecting a little more in salary, I have a couple of other offers and want to know if you have any flexibility?"

also, everything is negotiable. vacation, bonus, salary, expense reimbursement (cell phone stipend/computer, etc). Also consider trying to get some performance bonuses into the offer. For example, if you are in consulting set utilization targets, revenue managed, etc. You want to make sure that you have some level of control over the metric. Don't agree to profitability metric if you are just a staff engineer.

Hope this helps.


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## Art (Jan 31, 2009)

don't burn bridges...

I would never ask for more, and when they meet it, turn it down...

if you don't want the job, don't lead them on...you're wasting their time and it pisses people off...

and the engineering world is smaller than you think, word gets around, especially in a small town like mine...

narrow it down to the job you want:

best company, best fit, best for your career, most convenient, etc.

then negotiate money with them, if they have made an offer...

when I make an offer, I make a fair one, and _never_ negotiate...if they come on board and work out, I adjust their salary quickly...

evrybody is different...it all depends how bad they want you...

everything is on the table, except for usually 401's &amp; insurance

vacation, moving expenses, etc.

just remember, you're not the only person they're talking to...


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## DMB5mil (Feb 2, 2009)

Art and udpolo15 seem to have diametrically opposed thoughts on this subject...


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## udpolo15 (Feb 2, 2009)

DMB5mil said:


> Art and udpolo15 seem to have diametrically opposed thoughts on this subject...



I wouldn't say diametrically opposed, I agree that you shouldn't burn bridges and we both seem to agree that you should negotiate in good faith only.

I'll disagree that you should only negotiate with one company. If you have competing offers I think it is perfectly acceptable to go back to each and try to negotiate. You need to be up front and tell them you are debating between two offers. You shouldn't make promises (eg, if you match the others salary, I'll accept yours) if you don't intend to keep them.

Also, I think Art is just missing a comma after "everything is on the table, except for usually 401's &amp; insurance", meaning that you can negotiate vacation and moving expenses. Those are sometimes the easiest concessions to get.


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## chaosiscash (Feb 2, 2009)

Art said:


> when I make an offer, I make a fair one, and _never_ negotiate...if they come on board and work out, I adjust their salary quickly...


If you have to adjust their salary quickly, was the offer really that fair?


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## Kuku (Feb 2, 2009)

chaosiscash said:


> If you have to adjust their salary quickly, was the offer really that fair?


I don't blame him; I think he is doing it correctly. Anyone who would counter on me would get the boot. I am of the belief you take what you are given and come in and prove yourself, then you get rewarded.

We had a guy here who had no experience and countered... it just baffles me... finding a good job is tough, and I've always felt that countering would kill any chance you'd have at a job. At least that is my experience.


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 2, 2009)

^It's still a negotiation and every situation is different. As far as a quick adjustment goes, I've had that happen. The track record of people making a successful transition from where I was to where I was going was pretty poor. I knew it going in. I also knew I could do the offered job. Once I was there and demonstrated my abilities, a salary increase followed pretty quickly. Had it not, I now had a few more bullet items for the resume that would put me at a competitor with an increase in salary.


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## chaosiscash (Feb 2, 2009)

I come from the "the best place to negotiate is on the front end" philosophy. I've always had more luck getting money on the front end. And in my opinion, its completely appropriate to counter-offer, as long as you are willing/able to handle the fact they could turn it down. Of course, I'm a contractor, in a sector that hasn't seen any slowdown yet, so my situation may be different that some.


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## DMB5mil (Feb 2, 2009)

I appreciate everyone bouncing ideas back and forth. Its good to hear the different opinions on the subject, definitely giving me lots to think about!


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## Hakky (Feb 2, 2009)

Kuku said:


> I am of the belief you take what you are given and come in and prove yourself, then you get rewarded.


Perhaps I've been working for the wrong companies, but in my experience (and in the experience of most people I have met in the civil engineering industry), this is not how it works at all.

There is all too often the promise of great rewards in the future, and then excuses later as to why the rewards never came to fruition. I have heard this time and again, and my advice to anyone who gets a low offer with the promise of a fast raise/promotion should run in the opposite direction as fast as possible. One exception is someone entry level who basically has no leverage, or a job that may have other factors that make a lower salary more acceptable.

With that said, salary and vacation are obviously the #1 targets for negotiation. I would suggest for any licensed PE's to thoroughly understand how/when the company will reimburse for PE licenses. Many states renew for 2 years at a time, which can get tricky if you're licenced in multiple states. Add a septic license and things get even more confusing! I would also get clarification on taking CEU/PDH courses to maintain licensing, a lot of which aren't covered by the "tuition reimbursement" programs. Get clarification, and then negotiate additional benefits if you feel they are warranted.

I have only negotiated salary and vacation myself, but now having a PE in 2 states and a septic license, I will look much more carefully at how these will be paid for by any future employer.


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## mudpuppy (Feb 2, 2009)

I agree with Hakky. If an employer is not willing to negotiate on salary, run away! It is way too easy to get taken advantage of in that situation.


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## SkyWarp (Feb 2, 2009)

Kuku said:


> I am of the belief you take what you are given and come in and prove yourself, then you get rewarded.


 There's absolutely no guarantee that you will ever be rewarded to your satisfaction. I once tried this and had a manager tell me the company would not allow any large raises (regardless of how your pay compared to your peers) and then 2 minutes later he asked me to continue to work harder than everyone else and that the payoff would come.


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## Art (Feb 4, 2009)

chaosiscash said:


> If you have to adjust their salary quickly, was the offer really that fair?


every hire is on a trial basis...

a resume or references mean zip...

I've met PE's I wouldn't let walk my dog

the options are:

they exceed expectations, give them a bump

they are mediocre (all too common these days) give them more time to prove themselves

they are not going to cut it, let them go, the faster the better, it's the best thing for both parties

btw: if they 'accept' it, it's fair...


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## Art (Feb 4, 2009)

Kuku said:


> I don't blame him; I think he is doing it correctly. Anyone who would counter on me would get the boot. I am of the belief you take what you are given and come in and prove yourself, then you get rewarded.
> We had a guy here who had no experience and countered... it just baffles me... finding a good job is tough, and I've always felt that countering would kill any chance you'd have at a job. At least that is my experience.


:beerchug:

some folks don't get it...

550,000 people lost their jobs in Jan alone

I have no problem showing folks what I can do for them...employers or clients...

and it always works out, they become dependent on me, and give me what I want, and I'm reasonable and know the market...


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## Art (Feb 4, 2009)

the world is full of mediocrity...

everyone thinks they deserve top dollar...

but in reality, the curves that applied in school, still do

10% exceptional (in my experience it's far less)

10% above average

50% in the middle, status quo

the balance, the dregs, hangers on, the incompetent...

so if you're not getting paid what you think you should, ther's probably a reason...

lack of effort/results

wrong situation

but if you make money for someone, and do something others can't, or are much more efficient, it will all work out...


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## mudpuppy (Feb 4, 2009)

Art said:


> but if you make money for someone, and do something others can't, or are much more efficient, it will all work out...


Not true. Most employers will screw you at every opportunity they can. You can easily spend tons of time and effort working harder, faster, better with nothing to show for it.


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 4, 2009)

mudpuppy said:


> Not true. Most employers will screw you at every opportunity they can. You can easily spend tons of time and effort working harder, faster, better with nothing to show for it.


You may not see immediate monetary compensation. However, what you _do_ have is an increase in knowledge and experience that can be made useful to your _next_ employer. Where I am now is a direct result of all those 80hr weeks I spent learning how a power plant works.


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## DMB5mil (Feb 5, 2009)

Flyer_PE said:


> You may not see immediate monetary compensation. However, what you _do_ have is an increase in knowledge and experience that can be made useful to your _next_ employer. Where I am now is a direct result of all those 80hr weeks I spent learning how a power plant works.


Cheers Flyer! I have definitely put my time in with the extra hours these last four years! Sadly, one of my worries is that I won't fit into a company that doesnt expect me to work to death. I suppose as soon as I see "the light" I'll love it.


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## benbo (Feb 5, 2009)

It's been a while since I looked for a job, but in the past most places have always asked me my salary requirements along with my resume. I always put the minimum I will accept as the bottom of the range. THen, if they offer me that, I just take it. If they offer me less, I just forget about it - I figure they are playing games.

But it's true you can't trust some employers. When I worked in semiconductor capital equpment everybody was a customer or a competitior and they all knew the staff at other companies. My company kept telling everyone they couldn't afford raises. So, one fellow left, and then the company that hired him made offers to about 10 other staff at my company at 10% raises. On hearing this, my company offered 5% on top of that for them to stay. But some people were so annoyed with the shenanigans they left anyway. And my company actually sued the other company for unfair business practices or some such nonsense. It was ridiculous. THey lost obviously.


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## chaosiscash (Feb 5, 2009)

In the consultant/sub-contractor world I live in, its always about negotiations. Most sub compaines charge about the same hourly rate to the fed prime contractors, so what their employees make is mostly based on multipliers and negotiations. If I used the "take whatever I'm given" philosophy, I'd probably be making 15-20k a year less than I make now.


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## MGX (Feb 5, 2009)

benbo said:


> It's been a while since I looked for a job, but in the past most places have always asked me my salary requirements along with my resume. I always put the minimum I will accept as the bottom of the range. THen, if they offer me that, I just take it. If they offer me less, I just forget about it - I figure they are playing games.
> But it's true you can't trust some employers. When I worked in semiconductor capital equpment everybody was a customer or a competitior and they all knew the staff at other companies. My company kept telling everyone they couldn't afford raises. So, one fellow left, and then the company that hired him made offers to about 10 other staff at my company at 10% raises. On hearing this, my company offered 5% on top of that for them to stay. But some people were so annoyed with the shenanigans they left anyway. And my company actually sued the other company for unfair business practices or some such nonsense. It was ridiculous. THey lost obviously.


I've seen entire sections of staff leave to work for the same boss when he changes companies, even across state lines.

In fire protection, the world is very small and everyone knows everyone. I've generated somewhat of a name for myself just by being efficient and using methods to improve fabrication and design practices. Most of these companies are in the technological dark ages so all I've done is use my brain and apply what I've learned in school.

Thankfully, I was given a tour before hiring on and I promised design time cut in half with a 5K budget for upgrade equipment. Leveraging that for a higher salary than I previously earned worked well and the boss believed me. He got what was promised.

Ultimately, you get what you negotiate IMO. Effective sales isn't taught in engineering colleges, sadly.

On topic: I wouldn't pit companies against one another in the hiring. Managers and owners have very good memories and given the small size of the engineering world a smudge on one's name isn't worth it. Besides, I'd be pissed if someone did that to me.


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## Art (Feb 5, 2009)

mudpuppy said:


> Not true. Most employers will screw you at every opportunity they can. You can easily spend tons of time and effort working harder, faster, better with nothing to show for it.


in my 25 years I've never encountered that...

I've worked for 7 different places

large &amp; small construction firms

large &amp; small consulting firms

large government service companies

etc.

I generally believe folks want to treat you right, if you reciprocate...

then again I'm pretty good at sizing things up (sensitive BS detector) and have turned down more than a few jobs because it didn't feel right

the effort I put forth is for my own personal satisfaction, not anyone elses

I need to look at myself in the mirror in the morning

if someone 'thinks' they are screwing me, it's on them, and they are fooling themselves, because I am only letting them do it because at the time, it's to MY advantage


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## SkyWarp (Feb 6, 2009)

^I certainly think employers will often try to keep their good people, but sometimes they wait until you have an offer letter in your hand before they're willing to show you that they don't want you to leave.


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## Art (Feb 6, 2009)

SkyWarp said:


> ^I certainly think employers will often try to keep their good people, but sometimes they wait until you have an offer letter in your hand before they're willing to show you that they don't want you to leave.



I'm sure there are people like that...

then again, I wouldn't work for them...I want someone to be smart enough to see what I do for them and to treat me with enough respect to show it...and not only with money...

I want a relationship that if I don't feel I am compensated fairly, I can talk to them, not try and leverage them...

but if I found myself with folks like that...I'm gone, and money won't change it...

life is too short to waste time in a situation like that...

to each their own...

I guess that's why I like small companies...you get noticed, for better or worse...lol

you have more responsibility and interaction with the guy signing the check...

not just another cog in the wheel...

but some people like to hide...safety in numbers/anonymity


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## mudpuppy (Feb 8, 2009)

I'm not hiding from anything, but I will say I am glad to work for a large, stable company at a time when a lot of the small firms are laying people off left and right.


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## Art (Feb 8, 2009)

mudpuppy said:


> I'm not hiding from anything, but I will say I am glad to work for a large, stable company at a time when a lot of the small firms are laying people off left and right.



it seems in this economy, small or large, none is immune

Cat, GM, MS, etc.

even the USPS is talking about 5 days!

some local utilities are laying off/not replacing

same for our state government...

it's crazy times...

I've found in a small firm, where each individual is more integral, or has unique (to the firm) skills, the individual may be a little safer...

but as I said, no one is immune...

and I did say 'some' like to hide, not all


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## Flyer_PE (Feb 8, 2009)

Art said:


> I've found in a small firm, where each individual is more integral, or has unique (to the firm) skills, the individual may be a little safer...but as I said, no one is immune...


That has been my observation as well. We have a couple of clients that the larger firms couldn't afford to do business with because they don't do enough volume to cover the overhead expenses. We're also diversified enough to prevent any one client from sinking the ship. We aren't immune but I think we're better prepared for rough times than a lot of others.


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## Art (Feb 8, 2009)

Flyer_PE said:


> That has been my observation as well. We have a couple of clients that the larger firms couldn't afford to do business with because they don't do enough volume to cover the overhead expenses. We're also diversified enough to prevent any one client from sinking the ship. We aren't immune but I think we're better prepared for rough times than a lot of others.



I agree...

also in a smaller firm more personal Client relationships are built up...

the Client pays for YOU, as much as the firm...

they are YOUR Client...

but then again, a double edged sword...every problem is YOURS, and the midnight phone calls when they have an issue...


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## MGX (Feb 8, 2009)

Wir fahren, fahren, fahren auf der autobahn...

I got nothing...


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## SuperAlpha (Feb 11, 2009)

Kuku said:


> I don't blame him; I think he is doing it correctly. Anyone who would counter on me would get the boot. I am of the belief you take what you are given and come in and prove yourself, then you get rewarded.
> We had a guy here who had no experience and countered... it just baffles me... finding a good job is tough, and I've always felt that countering would kill any chance you'd have at a job. At least that is my experience.



If you are not willing to negotiate, then you are not serious about filling the position....If you were serious about the position then you would realize that you actually *need* the employee. Negotiation leads the employer and potential employee to a win-win deal. Your "deal or no deal" approach actually harms the company because it expects the employee to take it in the shorts because you have an apparent advantage due to economic reasons. Don't be surprised if he seeks other employment or is not very loyal since you "stuck it to him."

Everything is a negotiation and each party should put their wish number out there and work toward a win-win solution.


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## SkyWarp (Feb 11, 2009)

SuperAlpha said:


> If you are not willing to negotiate, then you are not serious about filling the position....If you were serious about the position then you would realize that you actually *need* the employee. Negotiation leads the employer and potential employee to a win-win deal. Your "deal or no deal" approach actually harms the company because it expects the employee to take it in the shorts because you have an apparent advantage due to economic reasons. Don't be surprised if he seeks other employment or is not very loyal since you "stuck it to him."Everything is a negotiation and each party should put their wish number out there and work toward a win-win solution.


I would be okay with a no negotiation approach if the company published everyone's salary. If what they offer really is the highest they can go, I'd like to see proof.


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## JoeBoone82 (Feb 12, 2009)

SkyWarp said:


> I would be okay with a no negotiation approach if the company published everyone's salary. If what they offer really is the highest they can go, I'd like to see proof.


I agree. If they are stuck on one figure, then I would like to see that everyone else with my credentials are in the same ballpark. I would at least like to see ranges, kind of like gov't does... showing that you must meet these requirements to be at this particular level, and this is the range of pay for that particular level. In the private industry, you have no idea how you compare to an equivalent peer.

In my case though, right out of school, I tried to negotiate and was told that the figure they gave me first was all that they could do. I took it though, even though it was less than some other places because I liked the company, people, location, etc and had interned with them before. I think they made it up in the end though with good raises. A graduating student doesnt have much leverage though, but in some of your cases with lots of experiences, licensing, etc... I think companies should negotiate or show their hand.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 12, 2009)

Art said:


> I've found in a small firm, where each individual is more integral, or has unique (to the firm) skills, the individual may be a little safer...but as I said, no one is immune...


I've found that not to be true outside of the consulting world. In manufacturing/sales, the engineer (yep, I was the only one) is the first to go. So much for saving enough money to cover my salary and profit sharing every year and designing a product responsible for 60% of the company profit.


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