# foreign undergraduate degree and US master



## HerrKaLeun

I do have a German undergraduate degree (Diplomingenieur) and will graduate from the UW-Madison as Master of Engineering this week. I also have 4+ years of experience in the US. I did pass the FE in 2007 in the first try.

My problem is that the licensing board first had an evaluation firm (ECEI) they accepted. After I sent them my documents they canceled their work with WI licensing board and sent me my papers back and partially reimbursed my fee. then the board didn't have anyone doing evaluations of foreign degrees for a while. Then state licensing board told me to go to a company AACROA and they gave me an evaluation that my degree is " equal or better then a US bachelor". But then the licensing board didn't accept AACROA evaluations (apparently they never talked to them about what requirements they have). AACROA canceled their contract with WI licensing board too. Now WI has a new firm they (allegedly) accept evaluations from. But they require my German university to send in all documents in English (I'm not allowed to touch them). Problem is, my German university is small and they don't have any program documents in English and only release documents in the official language (German). Does anyone else have experience with that? Graduate school would accept my German documents. Anyway, I likely won't get a useful evaluation. Actually, passing the FE exam and attending graduate school was easier then dealing with these impossible-to-achieve requirements to get an evaluation.

Now my question:

- will they accept my US Masters degree? The official language is " 4 year degree" and all ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees. (the UW MAdison Mechanical engineering BS program is listed). In my world, a masters degree always trumps a BS. but we deal with state regulators here.

- will they count my work experience up to now even when that was done before graduating from grad school? (remember, in their eyes my German degree is nothing)

I plan to take the PE exam this fall. I searched for similar problems, but didn't find any.


----------



## EM_PS

I imagine your US master's degree will be accepted from UW - Madison. Different states have different requirements for PE exam. Are you trying to take it in Wisconsin?


----------



## HerrKaLeun

EM_PS said:


> I imagine your US master's degree will be accepted from UW - Madison. Different states have different requirements for PE exam. Are you trying to take it in Wisconsin?


Yes I'm trying to take it in WI. Department of Licensing and Registration (DLR) told me today my Masters degree doesn't count for more than one year of education since they only have the UW bachelor degrees listed (and apparently the ME is worth less than a BS . So my masters degree would save me one year of experience of the 8 that I need. BUT I attended grad school while working full time and they don't let me double-count. So for licensing purposes the ME degree is worthless.

since they also don't have a place of evaluation that doesn't require my German university to create official documents in English, I'm pretty much stuck with waiting to get 8 years of experience (4 more to go). Unless they change their rules.

Ironically they let people become PE that have longer experience WITHOUT writing a test at all. In my opinion they should close that loop hole and let people that make honest effort getting credentials take the test. At this point I'd write 2 PE tests and pay and study for 2 tests if I could jsut write them.


----------



## ChemORME

HerrKaLeun said:


> EM_PS said:
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine your US master's degree will be accepted from UW - Madison. Different states have different requirements for PE exam. Are you trying to take it in Wisconsin?
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I'm trying to take it in WI. Department of Licensing and Registration (DLR) told me today my Masters degree doesn't count for more than one year of education since they only have the UW bachelor degrees listed (and apparently the ME is worth less than a BS . So my masters degree would save me one year of experience of the 8 that I need. BUT I attended grad school while working full time and they don't let me double-count. So for licensing purposes the ME degree is worthless.
> 
> since they also don't have a place of evaluation that doesn't require my German university to create official documents in English, I'm pretty much stuck with waiting to get 8 years of experience (4 more to go). Unless they change their rules.
> 
> Ironically they let people become PE that have longer experience WITHOUT writing a test at all. In my opinion they should close that loop hole and let people that make honest effort getting credentials take the test. At this point I'd write 2 PE tests and pay and study for 2 tests if I could jsut write them.
Click to expand...

Couple of thoughts/items for you:

1 - Just a correction/update for everyone - WI actually just passed an amendment to their engineering laws in this most recent legislative session that will eliminate the option of becoming a PE without following the procedures that are relatively close to the "NCEES Model Law" option (Engineering Degree -&gt; FE -&gt; Experience -&gt; PE), no more PE just based on experience.

2 - RE: your German degree - couple of thoughts...

- talk with the German dept at UW-Madison, they are frequently sending students back and forth between here and Germany and likely face this issue all the time with how to get the University to accept transcripts from German universities - what do they do? They may have some guidance for you to take advantage of (and they deal with state agencies too!)

- it's true that YOU cannot touch the transcripts, but what about an official translation company? Perhaps they can translate them and put a "stamp/note" of some sort (similar to a notary public, or a PE stamp) certifying that they have translated this properly...there are likely agencies or groups that can perform this task for you. Perhaps you can provide the WI DRL a copy of both your original transcript AND a "certified" translation?

Good luck - I didn't have too many challenges with the WI DRL, though my case was pretty "standard" as well. Write back if any of these work out or if you get some other ideas...maybe they'll help somebody else in the future!


----------



## pugsx

Dude, just drive down to Chicago and take it there.


----------



## EM_PS

unfortunately, one of the most notable opinions on foreign degree evals around here recently got banned (again)


----------



## MSEE_PE

In Minnesota if you have a graduate degree (MSEE, PhDEE) from the United States, they honor that degree and you don't need to go through the evaluation of your BSEE.


----------



## MechGuy

I hate to quibble, but you are incorrect when you say "All ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees." It's true that MOST ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees, simply because most schools offer both a BS and MS degree, but have more BS students (plus, if your BS is already accredited there is no point in your MS also having to be accredited.).

However, there are some schools that only offer MS degrees, which are ABET acceredited. The MS program I went through for engineering management was accredited.

Unfortuantely, this helps you in no way shape or form, I'm just being an ass by pointing out your mistake. My wife hates it when I do that but I can't help it.

So go with the other's folks advice and see if you can take it in a neighboring state that will accept your credentials?


----------



## txguy

HerrKaLeun said:


> I do have a German undergraduate degree (Diplomingenieur) and will graduate from the UW-Madison as Master of Engineering this week. I also have 4+ years of experience in the US. I did pass the FE in 2007 in the first try.
> My problem is that the licensing board first had an evaluation firm (ECEI) they accepted. After I sent them my documents they canceled their work with WI licensing board and sent me my papers back and partially reimbursed my fee. then the board didn't have anyone doing evaluations of foreign degrees for a while. Then state licensing board told me to go to a company AACROA and they gave me an evaluation that my degree is " equal or better then a US bachelor". But then the licensing board didn't accept AACROA evaluations (apparently they never talked to them about what requirements they have). AACROA canceled their contract with WI licensing board too. Now WI has a new firm they (allegedly) accept evaluations from. But they require my German university to send in all documents in English (I'm not allowed to touch them). Problem is, my German university is small and they don't have any program documents in English and only release documents in the official language (German). Does anyone else have experience with that? Graduate school would accept my German documents. Anyway, I likely won't get a useful evaluation. Actually, passing the FE exam and attending graduate school was easier then dealing with these impossible-to-achieve requirements to get an evaluation.
> 
> Now my question:
> 
> - will they accept my US Masters degree? The official language is " 4 year degree" and all ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees. (the UW MAdison Mechanical engineering BS program is listed). In my world, a masters degree always trumps a BS. but we deal with state regulators here.
> 
> - will they count my work experience up to now even when that was done before graduating from grad school? (remember, in their eyes my German degree is nothing)
> 
> I plan to take the PE exam this fall. I searched for similar problems, but didn't find any.




Hi,

I had similar situation. My undergrad was outside US and i did my masters in US. When i sent my application to TX board of engineers i just took a letter from the Graduate School that my degree have been evaluated as per the US standard by the school and i got the admission on basis of that. I just provided this letter to TX board and they did not ask for anything else besides my graduate transcript. You can just approach anyone in your graduate school office and they should be able to provide you this letter. I am not sure whether WI board will accept it but i think its worth a try. It worked for me.

Good Luck


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ChemORME said:


> Couple of thoughts/items for you:
> 1 - Just a correction/update for everyone - WI actually just passed an amendment to their engineering laws in this most recent legislative session that will eliminate the option of becoming a PE without following the procedures that are relatively close to the "NCEES Model Law" option (Engineering Degree -&gt; FE -&gt; Experience -&gt; PE), no more PE just based on experience.
> 
> 2 - RE: your German degree - couple of thoughts...
> 
> - talk with the German dept at UW-Madison, they are frequently sending students back and forth between here and Germany and likely face this issue all the time with how to get the University to accept transcripts from German universities - what do they do? They may have some guidance for you to take advantage of (and they deal with state agencies too!)
> 
> - it's true that YOU cannot touch the transcripts, but what about an official translation company? Perhaps they can translate them and put a "stamp/note" of some sort (similar to a notary public, or a PE stamp) certifying that they have translated this properly...there are likely agencies or groups that can perform this task for you. Perhaps you can provide the WI DRL a copy of both your original transcript AND a "certified" translation?
> 
> Good luck - I didn't have too many challenges with the WI DRL, though my case was pretty "standard" as well. Write back if any of these work out or if you get some other ideas...maybe they'll help somebody else in the future!


thanks to all of you.

chemorme:

- do you have a link or more information to the new law? I didn't see that DLR had changed their information. Did they by any chance include master's degrees or any other changes to foreign degrees? I wouldn't mind if they got rid of the option to just become a PE without the test (yes, WI allows that!!) Edit: just found it  this really sucks. since they either want a 2-year of 4-year degree, but Master's only counts as one year. DLR board only has meeting minutes from last year where they talk about it. but no information on when they implement that. but they got rid of the loophole to get licensed without the test. Now I'm really screwed, how am I to fulfill that short of getting another Master's degree or to get a bachelor's degree?

- translating, if they accepted just a translation (they actually talk about getting original university documents in English). If just translating by an official translator would work, I the German university had to pay them, and they needed to set up ways for me to pay the university. then there also is no guarantee the the " transcripts" really would be acknowledged. there isn't a real German counter thing to transcripts like from a US school. thsi option also would mean me up-fronting large amounts of money for the thing (including tranlation etc.) without knowing if DLR will accept it (since I already got one from a company required by DLR, and then DLR didn't accept it)

- using my gradschool admission might be possible, but the last time I talked to DLR they were strict about that it has to say " NCEES approved..." and gradschool is no licensed to say such thing. but i cna contact them. I'm awaiting my diploma and they still have all my original German documents.

Mechguy: i just assumed since all courses I saw that were ABET were BS. I kind of wonder why they have the BS program from my school listed, but not Master's . but i don't think I can change that. Edit: jsut looked up all WI schools. All only have BS degrees listed as ABET

- yes I heard some states accept MS and ME degrees. however, DLR said that counts as one year education (with other words, in their world one bachelor degree is worth 4 Master degrees)

- I sent in my application for E.I.T again since now i have 4 years experience int eh US, got all my 3 PE references and wait for the result. I'm being reclassified at work and the higher position technically requires E.I.T. license (and nit just passing the test). hope HR gets around and acknowledges i have an ME degree to make up for it.

Any other ideas for Wisconsin? and I don't think i can go to another state. I guess one has to reside there.

Thanks


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Just saw the governor signed act 350 into law. I'll see how quickly DLR sets rules accordingly.

Now they want either a 2-year technical college degree (+6 years experience) or a 4-year bachelor degree + 4 years experience. I don't generally oppose this, but am angry that they ignore graduate degrees. Now they not only say a Master's degree is worth less than a bachelor's degree. now it even is worth less than a 2-year technical college degree.

I'll await what the new rules will be, but I don't have much hope.

Does anyone have experience with foreign degrees accredited by NCEES? I really don't think any of my German institutions will send anything in English. I tried that 3 years ago at my first attempt with no luck. now most people I knew there likely are retired and my program from back then had changed dramatically (and is not even in English now)


----------



## engineergurl

HerrKaLeun said:


> Just saw the governor signed act 350 into law. I'll see how quickly DLR sets rules accordingly.
> Now they want either a 2-year technical college degree (+6 years experience) or a 4-year bachelor degree + 4 years experience. I don't generally oppose this, but am angry that they ignore graduate degrees. Now they not only say a Master's degree is worth less than a bachelor's degree. now it even is worth less than a 2-year technical college degree.
> 
> I'll await what the new rules will be, but I don't have much hope.
> 
> Does anyone have experience with foreign degrees accredited by NCEES? I really don't think any of my German institutions will send anything in English. I tried that 3 years ago at my first attempt with no luck. now most people I knew there likely are retired and my program from back then had changed dramatically (and is not even in English now)


I don't think they are really saying that a Master's degree is worth less then a 2 year degree... it's just a unique situation where someone would obtain a Masters without having gotten any sort of lower degree first. I have been going circles for two years regarding boards and degree/experience qualifications with the added fact that we move a lot, but then again, I don't have my masters... so although it's frustrating.


----------



## jan1213

World of Warcraft power leveling,

The Chinese New Year is now popularly known as the Spring Festival because it starts from the Begining of Spring (the first of the twenty-four terms in coodination with the changes of Nature).World of Warcraft power leveling Its origin is too old to be traced. Several explanations are hanging around. All agree, however, that the word Nian, which in modern Chinese solely means "year", was originally the name of a monster beast that started to prey on people the night before the beginning of a new year.

last chaos gold,

One legend goes that the beast Nian had a very big mouth that would swallow a great many people with one bite.last chaos gold People were very scared. One day, an old man came to their rescue, offering to subdue Nian. To Nian he said,

aoc power leveling,

"I hear say that you are very capable,aoc power leveling but can you swallow the other beasts of prey on earth instead of people who are by no means of your worthy opponents?" So, it did swallow many of the beasts of prey on earth that also harrassed people and their domestic animals from time to time.

aoc power leveling,

After that,aoc power leveling the old man disappeared riding the beast Nian. He turned out to be an immortal god. Now that Nian is gone and other beasts of prey are also scared into forests, people begin to enjoy their peaceful life. Before the old man left,

Final Fantasy XI GIL,

he had told people to put up red paper decorations on their windows and doors at each year's end to scare away Nian in case it sneaked back again,Final Fantasy XI GIL because red is the color the beast feared the most.

aion kinah,

From then on,aion kinah the tradition of observing the conquest of Nian is carried on from generation to generation. The term "Guo Nian", which may mean "Survive the Nian" becomes today "Celebrate the (New) Year" as the word "guo" in Chinese having both the meaning of "pass-over" and "observe". The custom of putting up red paper and firing fire-crackers to scare away Nian should it have a chance to run loose is still around. However, people today have long forgotten why they are doing all this, except that they feel the color and the sound add to the excitement of the celebration.


----------



## Somerset

I had BS and MS from China and MS from US, when I applied for the PE exam in NY, they sent the verification letter to the University where I got my BS. It took about 3 months that the NY Dept. of Education get the verification letter back from China.

I do think every normal college/University has the program of transcript translation becuase almost any University need the undergrauate transcipt for the application of MS, or PHD admission.

Check your university, tell the board the mail address of the office probabally will make the verification fast.

Do not fight with the verifcation procedure, find a way to make the verification done.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Somerset said:


> I had BS and MS from China and MS from US, when I applied for the PE exam in NY, they sent the verification letter to the University where I got my BS. It took about 3 months that the NY Dept. of Education get the verification letter back from China.I do think every normal college/University has the program of transcript translation becuase almost any University need the undergrauate transcipt for the application of MS, or PHD admission.
> 
> Check your university, tell the board the mail address of the office probabally will make the verification fast.
> 
> Do not fight with the verifcation procedure, find a way to make the verification done.


In your case it sounds like the department accepted the foreign degree. WI licensing board itself doesn't evaluate anything. they require me to use a certain evaluation service (today that is NCEES, it used to be other companies before).

The problem isn't necessarily the transcripts, it is obtaining them in *English*. Unlike the US school system, the German system is much more strict and the title "Diplomingenieur" (little bit in between bachelor and master imho) is protected by law. not like in the US where " university of Phoenix" can legally create random degrees and call them " bachelor" . With that, all German universities have to follow strict rules to earn that degree. AFAIK all engineering degrees are from state universities only. There also is no "PE" license in Germany. "Diplomingenieur" serves as that trademark, if you can compare it at all. That also means that no one ever wants to see a transcript since the title "Diplomingenieur" is not to be questioned. If you have that title, you are good to go. So if you have that title, you technically never need to proof what you exactly did in each class. That's why universities typically are not prepared to produce a transcript at the push of a button. Larger universities that are more likely to deal internationally, might do that. but all European schools will accept a German degree without questioning. My little (4000 student) university sure has not such process. And i tried that 3 years ago when I did the AACROA evaluation. But AACROA accepted the documents and translations coming from me (and likely verified translations themselves). they don''t even have that in english (or ready trasncripts at all) for current programs and sure don't go back in time to a 2003 graduate to re-create that in English.

I guess there is a difference in mindset here making an evaluation necessary in the US. In the US the term " engineer" is loosely used and not protected. I can call myself "sales engineer" and am legally OK. In Germany calling one " Diplomingenieur" without ever completing an official program would be considered fraud and can get you in jail.

Maybe I'll try again and give them my translations, so they can officially stamp and send it to NCEES. Does anyone know if NCEES has requirements regarding the translation (i.e. certified translator etc.?). Before I pay them money I rather know I have a shot. It seems NCEES doesn't give you much information before you give them money.


----------



## engineergurl

I am an engineer, and no longer have the tip of my tounge.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

engineergurl said:


> I am an engineer, and no longer have the tip of my tounge.


no need to bite tongue...

Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.


----------



## Somerset

For example, you had BS in Germany and you want to apply for the MS, or PHD study from a university in US, normally the university will ask you ask your college send the official transcript (NOT from youself). What will you do? If your college does not have the program, it will be tough.

I do not know the requirement from WI, from NY, the Dept. of Education sent a form to my university in China, let them fill and sign the form ,send them back with the transcript DIRECTLY.

You maybe can translate the transcipt in englishby youself and get it stamped from youe university if your university does not international education program. or maybe as you said, get it in German and pay someone translated in English and notarized in US.


----------



## Kephart P.E.

+1 on going to a neighboring state.

I had issues getting all the documentation in correctly to my state so I went to Washington, they processed my paperwork with no issues and I took the test there (and it was cheaper).

Then once you have passed the test you have all the time you need to get things worked out with WI.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Kephart P.E. said:


> +1 on going to a neighboring state.
> I had issues getting all the documentation in correctly to my state so I went to Washington, they processed my paperwork with no issues and I took the test there (and it was cheaper).
> 
> Then once you have passed the test you have all the time you need to get things worked out with WI.


I'm not sure if going to a different state is possible without " pretending" to live there. And don't you need references from PE's from that state you apply for? I only work with PE's in WI.

Sommerset: Germany (at that time) didn't have BS and MS. " diplomingenieur" was the only engineering degree (besides becoming PhD). thsi makes comparing even harder. Now most schools have BS and MS, but also still have Dipl.-Ing. degrees.

The problem translating is, it needs to come from the university. so having someone in the US translating wouldn't work. but I'll try to send my university my own translations. does anyone know if that can be translated by anyone as long as it is stamped by the unviersity, or will NCEES require some officially certified translator? (this of course would make it harder and expensive)

WI licensing board requires evaluations sent from NCEES. NCEES requires my German university to send it all to them directly, and in English. WI licensing board themselves don't deal with any schools etc.

Regarding admission to graduate school and why they didn't require it sent by my German university:

Besides original German documents and my translations, I also gave them the official evaluation by AACROA (that the licensing board didn't accept). I also had attended UW Madison some years before on scholarship and took all graduate courses and had a GPA of over 3.5 back then. Aslo had GRE with 1200 scores etc. They do have German speaking staff that is very knowledgeable in foreign education systems. They asked for more documents (Abitur) etc. that only knowledgeable people would even know. Many of the graduate students are foreign, and all get paid a salary as research assistants (not me, I worked full time since I already had a good engineering job before grad school) . I'd think their evaluation systems is valid. they may or may not have checked more things int he background, like contacted my German school to verify, I don't know. It is one of the best engineering schools (of course I have to say that


----------



## Somerset

You better explain this situation to WI exam board and ask them if it is okay you translate and let your university stamped it. Besides, you better check whether any form from WI need signed by your university.

It is tough, you can do it, it took me almost 1 year to get the approval from NY state. Do not give up.

P.E. is a BIG advantage for job hunting.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Somerset said:


> You better explain this situation to WI exam board and ask them if it is okay you translate and let your university stamped it. Besides, you better check whether any form from WI need signed by your university.It is tough, you can do it, it took me almost 1 year to get the approval from NY state. Do not give up.
> 
> P.E. is a BIG advantage for job hunting.


The licensing board doesn't care how I get the documents. they basically trust NCEES decision on the evaluation.

NCEES sets the rules and reviews the documents (WI licensing board doesn't even get to see the documents, they only get the evaluation document from NCEES).

The thing is, NCEES doesn't really have a contact information to talk to before you pay the $ 400. Then they will tell you what you exactly need. My question now to anyone having experience with NCEES: doe they have specific translation requirements?

Before I pay the $ 400 again, I'd like to have certainty it will work.


----------



## engineergurl

HerrKaLeun said:


> Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.



Is that always a bad thing?

I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying... I have researched it, and if I went to get an MS, there would still be no gaurentee that I could sit for any of the exams, since my BS is in a different area of study. But the way it is set up in some states, allows people who have changed professions, to become an "engineer" per say based on their knowledge and experience. I know plenty of competent engineers who have gotten a technical two year degree and worked the required years and gone on and become PE's, and plenty of others that have masters with PE's that can not produce a set of plans that I'm willing to accept for us to use. I do recommend looking into the neighboring states... it may be slightly a pain, but in the end, you may be able to achieve your goal in a more timely manner.

Also, since you are working in the engineering field, you could ask around your office regarding contact information. This was how I was able to get many of my questions answered.


----------



## Paul S

HerrKaLeun said:


> I'm not sure if going to a different state is possible without " pretending" to live there. And don't you need references from PE's from that state you apply for? I only work with PE's in WI.



Here is the list of states that require residency to take the exam NCEES Surveys. There are only a few states that you have to live in to take the exam. You may have to travel to that state to take the exam since the proctoring rules are changing.

My application was approved in PA, and I had 5 PE's as references, and they were all from different states.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

engineergurl said:


> HerrKaLeun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that always a bad thing?
> 
> I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying... I have researched it, and if I went to get an MS, there would still be no gaurentee that I could sit for any of the exams, since my BS is in a different area of study. But the way it is set up in some states, allows people who have changed professions, to become an "engineer" per say based on their knowledge and experience. I know plenty of competent engineers who have gotten a technical two year degree and worked the required years and gone on and become PE's, and plenty of others that have masters with PE's that can not produce a set of plans that I'm willing to accept for us to use. I do recommend looking into the neighboring states... it may be slightly a pain, but in the end, you may be able to achieve your goal in a more timely manner.
> 
> Also, since you are working in the engineering field, you could ask around your office regarding contact information. This was how I was able to get many of my questions answered.
Click to expand...

I agree with the method of becoming a P.E. by having more years experience. Until this month, WI allowed writing the test with 8 years experience and no degree (that was my backup plan in case they don't acknowledge my German nor my US master's). but the new law doesn't allow that anymore (2-year technical college + 6 years experience or 4-year BS + 4 years experience required now).

(WI also allowed becoming a PE with BS degree + 8 years experience but *no test*... fortunately they got rid of that one)

I meant, many of the designers are neither P.E. *nor* completed college education. they always have one senior engineer for the RFP and meetings to make it look like they had qualification. but the design is done by non-engineers. At least for many consultants. there are some good ones, but those are the majority. Actually much of my work is fixing their mistakes at our expense.

At first i didn't realize that when i talked to them in design meetings adn they didn't understand some concepts. Since I'm from another country many things are different tome and are uncommon here and vice versa. but later on in my job when those designs failed exactly because they did things to the contrary of what i said, I had a closer look at their resumes from their RFPs. then I realized that they use little trick words like "electrical designer"instead of engineer. "attended UW Madison" instead of got a degree. Over time i also got to know more consultants (good and bad ones) and realized more that much of the design is done my some students. Maybe we always get the B-team of staff (I work for a local government) and in the beginning I was naive to think when we hire an engineering consultant all work would be done by engineers. At least the design. i realize some drafting etc. is done by cheaper people.


----------



## engineergurl

HerrKaLeun said:


> engineergurl said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> HerrKaLeun said:
> 
> 
> 
> Well, we get proposals from consultants and most of the "engineers" have never seen a college from inside.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is that always a bad thing?
> 
> I actually agree with a lot of what you are saying... I have researched it, and if I went to get an MS, there would still be no gaurentee that I could sit for any of the exams, since my BS is in a different area of study. But the way it is set up in some states, allows people who have changed professions, to become an "engineer" per say based on their knowledge and experience. I know plenty of competent engineers who have gotten a technical two year degree and worked the required years and gone on and become PE's, and plenty of others that have masters with PE's that can not produce a set of plans that I'm willing to accept for us to use. I do recommend looking into the neighboring states... it may be slightly a pain, but in the end, you may be able to achieve your goal in a more timely manner.
> 
> Also, since you are working in the engineering field, you could ask around your office regarding contact information. This was how I was able to get many of my questions answered.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I agree with the method of becoming a P.E. by having more years experience. Until this month, WI allowed writing the test with 8 years experience and no degree (that was my backup plan in case they don't acknowledge my German nor my US master's). but the new law doesn't allow that anymore (2-year technical college + 6 years experience or 4-year BS + 4 years experience required now).
> 
> (WI also allowed becoming a PE with BS degree + 8 years experience but *no test*... fortunately they got rid of that one)
> 
> I meant, many of the designers are neither P.E. *nor* completed college education. they always have one senior engineer for the RFP and meetings to make it look like they had qualification. but the design is done by non-engineers. At least for many consultants. there are some good ones, but those are the majority. Actually much of my work is fixing their mistakes at our expense.
> 
> At first i didn't realize that when i talked to them in design meetings adn they didn't understand some concepts. Since I'm from another country many things are different tome and are uncommon here and vice versa. but later on in my job when those designs failed exactly because they did things to the contrary of what i said, I had a closer look at their resumes from their RFPs. then I realized that they use little trick words like "electrical designer"instead of engineer. "attended UW Madison" instead of got a degree. Over time i also got to know more consultants (good and bad ones) and realized more that much of the design is done my some students. Maybe we always get the B-team of staff (I work for a local government) and in the beginning I was naive to think when we hire an engineering consultant all work would be done by engineers. At least the design. i realize some drafting etc. is done by cheaper people.
Click to expand...

hmmm, maybe this is why I reject so many plans.... if so, don't feel like you've got the B-team of staff, I work for the dod indirectly... although maybe the A-team is reserved for the pvt stuff 

I do stand corrected. I'm defensive since I am approaching the engineering profession from a different avenue then traditional, and have a pretty "America, hell ya!" attitude to begin with. Although we are actually hopeful for Europe as our next duty station.

After I decided that I didn't want to do what I had gone for college for, I went back and got a two year in engineering technology, but don't really want to spend all that much more time just to get another BS... right now is not the right time to go back for my masters although i've looked into it and been accepted conditionally (one more undergrad class required) to a few schools. The way the economy is, I just want to keep working while I can.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Paul S said:


> HerrKaLeun said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure if going to a different state is possible without " pretending" to live there. And don't you need references from PE's from that state you apply for? I only work with PE's in WI.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here is the list of states that require residency to take the exam NCEES Surveys. There are only a few states that you have to live in to take the exam. You may have to travel to that state to take the exam since the proctoring rules are changing.
> 
> My application was approved in PA, and I had 5 PE's as references, and they were all from different states.
Click to expand...

Yes i will try that if everything else fails. Minnesota  allows graduate degrees in case the same school has ABET accredited bachelor's degrees. It also seems I can make the WI licensing board send them my FE test results. it also seems they only require 3 years of experience in case I have a graduate degree. Now my only question is if they mean experience BEFORE i received that graduate degree (1 week ago  or only after. does anyone know if WI makes problems accepting a MN PE? I'll contact them. I really don't try to get an easy way, but Minnesota here I come! thanks for the hint. This really makes my day! i really don't care how hard the test is, but at least a fair chance, that is all I want. arty-smiley-048:

WI licensing application forms indicate there is a difference between applicants who hold a current NCEES council record and the ones who don't. I'm not sure what that means, do i automatically hold a council record when I get my license in MN? I assume the tests are all the same, right?


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Oh ,no. WI only allows PEs from certain states that hold the same standards (whatever that means) adn that have 8 years experience and must show the education documents. Now I'm back at square 1.

"Certificate of Registration: An applicant may apply for registration if he or she holds an unexpired

registration in another state in which registration requirements are not lower than those in Wisconsin. The

applicant must have passed the NCEES principles and practice examination and have 8 years of engineering

experience (education included). Applicants may apply using NCEES Council Record or by direct

application."

now i have to see what their new exact interpretation will be, sincce the new law becomes active today. :wtlw:


----------



## milton7137

I passed PE 2 yrs ago from MD. I work in PA &amp; wanted to transfer my PE from MD to PA. PA wanted my foreign undergrade diploma evaluation. i am from a 3rd world country. it cost only $2 to get 3 copies of transcript from my university. but to send a copy to USA , cost $50. My university do not pay $50. do not send to the company in USA . what we do ? we ask someone to pickup the sealed envelop from university and post to the company who does the evaluation. during the sending procedure, we do some fake arrangement which show that the documents were sent from the university.

in your case, translate a copy of your transcript and diploma in english. and send the package to your country to your friend who will help you posting them to the right place. ask your friend to get the english documents signed by your university. or if possible, forge everything-----------------------. that is the only way to fulfill what they ask without knowing how the foreign county runs ? they just know the USA way and nothing else.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

milton7137 said:


> I passed PE 2 yrs ago from MD. I work in PA &amp; wanted to transfer my PE from MD to PA. PA wanted my foreign undergrade diploma evaluation. i am from a 3rd world country. it cost only $2 to get 3 copies of transcript from my university. but to send a copy to USA , cost $50. My university do not pay $50. do not send to the company in USA . what we do ? we ask someone to pickup the sealed envelop from university and post to the company who does the evaluation. during the sending procedure, we do some fake arrangement which show that the documents were sent from the university.in your case, translate a copy of your transcript and diploma in english. and send the package to your country to your friend who will help you posting them to the right place. ask your friend to get the english documents signed by your university. or if possible, forge everything-----------------------. that is the only way to fulfill what they ask without knowing how the foreign county runs ? they just know the USA way and nothing else.


Did they provide all documents in English or is English an offical language there? I guess 3rd world countries are more likely to deal in English matters. Unfortunately (or fortunately) Germany is so strong and rich that they don't need to do things in English. hope they don't bust you now  Yes they make it overly complicated that forces people to go such short cut ways. Of course I'm biased, but common sense tells me if someone has a master's degree from a reputable US university, that shows that person has the brain to get a BS degree. I also think they should widen their accepted programs. ABET is not an international thing (only one single German program listed) and they should accept engineering degrees from state schools from industrialized countries that have strong engineering programs.

I read through the ABET requirements. A university just have to show they offer a wide variety of education in their program, have advisers for students, good faculty/students ratio etc. It doesn't have much to do with scientific accomplishments.

I think if they don't require a licensed translator I can send the translations to my German university, and they stamp it and send it to NCEES. If I have to pay them mailing fee, that is fine too. After paying hundreds of $ for evaluations and fees, I think paying $ 50 for mailing is the least of my worries.

Since the new law got enacted today, the department still is working on exact rules. I'll wait what they come up with. Maybe (hopefully) they do something like Minnesota where they accept graduate degrees if the same program has an ABET accredited BS program. right now i have my EIT license application in (based on 4 years experience based on old rules) and will see how that pans out.


----------



## ironman

HerrKaLeun said:


> milton7137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I passed PE 2 yrs ago from MD. I work in PA &amp; wanted to transfer my PE from MD to PA. PA wanted my foreign undergrade diploma evaluation. i am from a 3rd world country. it cost only $2 to get 3 copies of transcript from my university. but to send a copy to USA , cost $50. My university do not pay $50. do not send to the company in USA . what we do ? we ask someone to pickup the sealed envelop from university and post to the company who does the evaluation. during the sending procedure, we do some fake arrangement which show that the documents were sent from the university.in your case, translate a copy of your transcript and diploma in english. and send the package to your country to your friend who will help you posting them to the right place. ask your friend to get the english documents signed by your university. or if possible, forge everything-----------------------. that is the only way to fulfill what they ask without knowing how the foreign county runs ? they just know the USA way and nothing else.
> 
> 
> 
> Did they provide all documents in English or is English an offical language there? I guess 3rd world countries are more likely to deal in English matters. Unfortunately (or fortunately) Germany is so strong and rich that they don't need to do things in English. hope they don't bust you now  Yes they make it overly complicated that forces people to go such short cut ways. Of course I'm biased, but common sense tells me if someone has a master's degree from a reputable US university, that shows that person has the brain to get a BS degree. I also think they should widen their accepted programs. ABET is not an international thing (only one single German program listed) and they should accept engineering degrees from state schools from industrialized countries that have strong engineering programs.
> 
> I read through the ABET requirements. A university just have to show they offer a wide variety of education in their program, have advisers for students, good faculty/students ratio etc. It doesn't have much to do with scientific accomplishments.
> 
> I think if they don't require a licensed translator I can send the translations to my German university, and they stamp it and send it to NCEES. If I have to pay them mailing fee, that is fine too. After paying hundreds of $ for evaluations and fees, I think paying $ 50 for mailing is the least of my worries.
> 
> Since the new law got enacted today, the department still is working on exact rules. I'll wait what they come up with. Maybe (hopefully) they do something like Minnesota where they accept graduate degrees if the same program has an ABET accredited BS program. right now i have my EIT license application in (based on 4 years experience based on old rules) and will see how that pans out.
Click to expand...

I agree I dont know why they are giving you the run around with a german degree. If you had a degree from India or china I would fully support a state not transfering your degree but germany should not be an issue.


----------



## Ble_PE

He's back!!


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ironman said:


> I agree I dont know why they are giving you the run around with a german degree. If you had a degree from India or china I would fully support a state not transfering your degree but germany should not be an issue.


I don't know if that applies to all ChIndia schools, but the Indian elite schools easily rival MIT and Harvard.

NCEES at least could make a list with schools they accept. That ABET certification just doesn't apply to foreign schools. Edit: There is one single German program ABET certified. I'm pretty sure there are 100s of good German engineering programs. No need to exclude them all.


----------



## EM_PS

milton7137 said:


> i am from a 3rd world country. during the sending procedure, we do some fake arrangement which show that the documents were sent from the university.in your case, translate a copy of your transcript and diploma in english. and send the package to your country to your friend who will help you posting them to the right place. ask your friend to get the english documents signed by your university. or if possible, forge everything-----------------------. that is the only way to fulfill what they ask without knowing how the foreign county runs ? they just know the USA way and nothing else.


Wtf?! please feel free to return to your 3rd world country anytime


----------



## Somerset

Thereis comity between ABET and other country's education program, you may check the ABET website to see if your college in the list. Good Luck!


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Somerset said:


> Thereis comity between ABET and other country's education program, you may check the ABET website to see if your college in the list. Good Luck!


I looked on the ABET website and the only German progran is this university of Karlsruhe program:

Engineering (EAC)	Electrical Engineering and Computer Engineering(M.Sc.)[2006]	2013-2014

or am I looking at the wrong corner? It really seems there only is one German program listed (and obviously not mine .

It seems ABET only has 15 countries listed. Germany, Mexico, India and Turkey are probably the most advanced among them. The remaining countries are Kuwait, Qatar etc. Most countries only list one program (Mexico has 3). some of them not even engineering. so this ABET staff really is tailored to the US only. Not really a help at all if you are from another country.


----------



## ironman

If they are certifying schools in mexico then someone is getting kick backs thats for sure. I have heard of india having a few decent schools but not turkey or mexico.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ironman said:


> If they are certifying schools in mexico then someone is getting kick backs thats for sure. I have heard of india having a few decent schools but not turkey or mexico.


I think almost every country has some good schools for the top 1% of the population. Even if they copy a foreign school. I once met a Mexican in Germany who spoke fluent German because he went to a German high school in Mexico (obviously his parents were not poor). I could imagine Mexico having some schools that copy US schools. Turkey actually has a good system for quite some people. It is not that mid evil country as the Arab countries. Just the fact that their constitution requires separation of state and church and religious symbols (including women covering their face) are outlawed in public building including schools tells you a lot. (Yes, bible belt, I'm looking at you . turkey even has a higher percentage of women in high ranking positions than Germany. although 99% Muslim population, it is very unlike Saudi Arabia. Which gives me hope...

What really makes a difference is the majority of the schools are in each country. I'm sure most schools in Germany are good, in Mexico, probably not. I guess being in between drug war, civil war and no money doesn't enhance public schools.

The US certainly has some of the best schools and many state schools are well regarded (as UW Madison graduate I have to say such tings . but in the US there also is a wide sprawl of legal degree mills that accept anyone and give anyone a degree that can pay (no pulse required). there is no protection for the world "bachelor". Those schools even qualify for financial aid. And I think those degree mills are the reason that licensing boards require accreditation.


----------



## ChemORME

It certainly sounds like a challenge to work through - not impossible - just one that will take some time!

When transferring my EIT to WI from IN, there is a special form that WI requires the transferring state to fill out (in this case IN) to "certify" the license is valid/etc.; however, IN has gone hi-tech and now you just pay $10 and get a certified electronic copy that you can e-mail to whoever you need to...but alas, WI doesn't get their special form! So - a couple of hours of phone tag and ultimately a 3-way call between the office in IN and office in WI and we were able to work out a solution (I buy the certified electronic copy, send the filled out form to the one lady who agreed to help me in IN - she would sign it, scan it and email it back to me - and I then emailed all three to one person at WI).

Moral of the story - it can be done - just may be a lot of hoops to jump through and lots of your time to do it (its you that would have to drive it!).

Any luck with the German department at UW? They may be able to help - or maybe they're worked with doctors or other professionals in the other schools at UW who are needing to work with the WI DRL (WI Dept of Regulations and Licensing) facing the same issue.

You're still chatting here - so that's a good sign - engineers always have ideas!


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ChemORME said:


> It certainly sounds like a challenge to work through - not impossible - just one that will take some time!
> Any luck with the German department at UW? They may be able to help - or maybe they're worked with doctors or other professionals in the other schools at UW who are needing to work with the WI DRL (WI Dept of Regulations and Licensing) facing the same issue.
> 
> You're still chatting here - so that's a good sign - engineers always have ideas!


the licensing board want to see something that says my degree is ABET or NCEES approved. Graduate school admission said they could write a letter that my German degree fullfilled the requirements of a US bachelor for their purposes. but they won't be able to say it would equal one of their ABET certified programs (since it is not up to the university to decide). so I could get something from graduate school, but nothing that will help.

I think every reasonable person (including the ones at the licensing board) would agree that someone with a German engineering degree and a Master's degree from the UW would be good enough to be considered equal to one of the bachelor's degrees listed in ABET. but they need something saying it is NCEES approved (or listed by ABET).

I'm right now awaiting the board to grant me my EIT license (they decide next week and it might take a week for me to know). I did that under the old rules using 4 years of experience. (since 5/28 they need one of those degrees for that). The only reason I even want EIT is to see if they accept my experience. and also my promotion is currently on hold since my new engineer classification spells out "must posess EIT license" and HR is not willing to give in (Having passed FE test and master's degree doesn't mean anything to them). Ironically whne it comes to doing work I'm allowed to do work from a higher classification. My backup if they don't give me the EIT license is to appeal to them, or to get the EIT license in Minnesota (since Minnesota accepts my graduate degree. So the Wisconsin licensing board does not accept a Wisconsin degree, but the Minnesota licensing board accepts a Wisconsin degree - go figure!)

I'm also planning to do another one of those evaluations and contacted my old university if they would stamp my translations and send them to NCEES. I haven't heard from them yet, but hope to get that squared away some time.

Minnesota will allow me to become PE with graduate degree and 5 years experience. I could do that next year. But in order to transfer my Minnesota license to WI, WI again requires my accredited transcripts. So this still doesn't get me a license in WI. I could move to Minnesota.... this seems to be easier


----------



## Somerset

I had same issue, my BS from China is not listed in the ABET, so the NY Dept. treat my BS as Bachelor of Engineering, which means that I need extra two years working experience. I had enough years of working experience in US, so I finally got approval for the exam.

Your case is similar, as long as you got the Bachelor of ENgineering, maybe okay.


----------



## Octave

Whether your degree is from Germany, China or Pluto is immaterial. There are good and not-so-good schools everywhere, the US included. The fact is that if the degree is from a non-ABET school, the State Board wants the transcripts, syllabus, etc., evaluated.

I requested two official copies of my credentials from my foreign school. The school sent one copy directly to NCEES Credential Evaluations (I provided them with a FedEx account number). The school sent the second copy to a translator registered with the nearest US consulate. The translator provided a word-by-word translation to English and sent it along with the original documents directly to NCEES (again, using FedEx), and provided me with photocopies of the original documents and translation.

It did cost a significant amount of money and took some time as well, but this way NCEES received the documents directly from the school and the translator, satisfying such requirement.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Octave said:


> Whether your degree is from Germany, China or Pluto is immaterial. There are good and not-so-good schools everywhere, the US included. The fact is that if the degree is from a non-ABET school, the State Board wants the transcripts, syllabus, etc., evaluated.
> I requested two official copies of my credentials from my foreign school. The school sent one copy directly to NCEES Credential Evaluations (I provided them with a FedEx account number). The school sent the second copy to a translator registered with the nearest US consulate. The translator provided a word-by-word translation to English and sent it along with the original documents directly to NCEES (again, using FedEx), and provided me with photocopies of the original documents and translation.
> 
> It did cost a significant amount of money and took some time as well, but this way NCEES received the documents directly from the school and the translator, satisfying such requirement.


Did NCEES tell you what type of translator (certified, or member of some translator association etc.) to use? I mean would they have accepted something translated by the university (some English department or so)? What was your approx. cost for the translator?

I do have translations and wonder if I have the university review them for correctness (so that I don't make up things) and and have them stamp t it would be easier (and cheaper). And it still comes from the university.


----------



## Octave

HerrKaLeun said:


> Did NCEES tell you what type of translator (certified, or member of some translator association etc.)...I do have translations and wonder if I have the university review them for correctness...


I do believe the instructions called for a certified professional translator, which is what I used; he stamped each sheet and provided contact information. However, I'm pretty sure that NCEES would accept your translated documents if they came from the school directly, with official stamps or seals.

I suggest that you call NCEES Credentials Evaluations and ask them first, before proceeding forward. Keep in mind that they deal with similar cases all the time.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

Octave said:


> I do believe the instructions called for a certified professional translator, which is what I used; he stamped each sheet and provided contact information. However, I'm pretty sure that NCEES would accept your translated documents if they came from the school directly, with official stamps or seals.
> I suggest that you call NCEES Credentials Evaluations and ask them first, before proceeding forward. Keep in mind that they deal with similar cases all the time.


It took me a while to find a phone number on NCEES website but finally found it and got to talk to a person. The lady said as long as the university sends and stamps it, it doesn't matter who translates it. It also could be that the university already had an English version and that wouldn't be done by a certified translator anyway (that last sentence is my interpretation). she also said even if they only sent the German documents to NCEES, they would send them (or a copy) to me so I can send them to a certified US translator who sends the translation to NCEES. Obviously I try the first route since translation sounds expensive. I'm just waiting to hear back from my German university how they want to handle that. The lady also said I can send my graduate school transcripts (not sure if it will mean anything, but can't hurt). Fortunately that is easy to do online and cost $ 10 and is in English. So I hope this works out somehow and maybe I can apply to write the test this fall. they also want my "Abitur" and she said they may accept the copy coming from me since I told her I got my Abitur in 1993 and it is unlikely to still get those documents from the school.

I also meanwhile got my EIT license (based on the old rules, with 4 years experience). not that that license is of any use, but at least my promotion is not on hold anymore.

So this is a little better news. hope I don't get disappointed.


----------



## ChemORME

HerrKaLeun said:


> Octave said:
> 
> 
> 
> I do believe the instructions called for a certified professional translator, which is what I used; he stamped each sheet and provided contact information. However, I'm pretty sure that NCEES would accept your translated documents if they came from the school directly, with official stamps or seals.
> I suggest that you call NCEES Credentials Evaluations and ask them first, before proceeding forward. Keep in mind that they deal with similar cases all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> It took me a while to find a phone number on NCEES website but finally found it and got to talk to a person. The lady said as long as the university sends and stamps it, it doesn't matter who translates it. It also could be that the university already had an English version and that wouldn't be done by a certified translator anyway (that last sentence is my interpretation). she also said even if they only sent the German documents to NCEES, they would send them (or a copy) to me so I can send them to a certified US translator who sends the translation to NCEES. Obviously I try the first route since translation sounds expensive. I'm just waiting to hear back from my German university how they want to handle that. The lady also said I can send my graduate school transcripts (not sure if it will mean anything, but can't hurt). Fortunately that is easy to do online and cost $ 10 and is in English. So I hope this works out somehow and maybe I can apply to write the test this fall. they also want my "Abitur" and she said they may accept the copy coming from me since I told her I got my Abitur in 1993 and it is unlikely to still get those documents from the school.
> 
> I also meanwhile got my EIT license (based on the old rules, with 4 years experience). not that that license is of any use, but at least my promotion is not on hold anymore.
> 
> So this is a little better news. hope I don't get disappointed.
Click to expand...

Congratulations on getting the EIT - great to know its not "holding you back" anyways! It sounds like you are certainly one step closer towards success as well..at minimum you've got some better direction anyways!

Best of luck! Now all you need to do is pass the test!


----------



## HerrKaLeun

ChemORME said:


> Congratulations on getting the EIT - great to know its not "holding you back" anyways! It sounds like you are certainly one step closer towards success as well..at minimum you've got some better direction anyways!
> Best of luck! Now all you need to do is pass the test!


After all this (I already had an evaluation...) stress over the last years the test seems to be the smallest hurdle. I read over the NCEES description of my area (Mechanical) and it doesn't sound too bad. With the right study material and some time studying I'm not worried. Obviously time will be an issue in the test. EDIT: the fact that the test is in IP units will be another hurdle, but will be manageable

For the FE I used the PPI material and that was pretty good for the test. the good thing about the test is that I have full control and can study as hard as I want. All that other evaluation stuff I don't have control, which I don't like.


----------



## valkyrie

Well I took the exam in WA state, and they accepted a copy of the AACROA's transcripts that they had accepted, 3 years before for my FE exam. give them a call and try to reason with them. they have granted the eligibility to take the FE exam based on a valid document, so now it really doesn't make scene not to recognize what they already have accepted and granted the eligibility based upon that.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

valkyrie said:


> Well I took the exam in WA state, and they accepted a copy of the AACROA's transcripts that they had accepted, 3 years before for my FE exam. give them a call and try to reason with them. they have granted the eligibility to take the FE exam based on a valid document, so now it really doesn't make scene not to recognize what they already have accepted and granted the eligibility based upon that.


I had tried reasoning with the board in 2007. after i had passed the FE test they told me to get the AACROA evaluation (and I still have the email). but when I turned that in they admitted they hadn't talked to AACROA and only would accept it if AACROA would write on it that the evaluation meets NCEES standards. while the licensing board and AACROA tried to resolve this AACROA decided to not work with the state of WI anymore (wonder why). I then still tried to work with them to get that rectified. But at some point they jsut didn't answer anymore (I assume their boss had told them to cease it). that is how I got stuck. The state licensing board apparently made the mistake, but didn't own it. the right thing to do for them would have been to accept the AACROA evaluation regardless of it says "meets NCEES" since they told me to use AACROA. but they never did... and then told me I should use some other service. Needless to say that I was pissed to spend all that money and go through that argument. Including evaluation time it was almost a year of arguing until I gave up. I then started grad school and was hoping they would accept a Master's degree. I even think at that time (and i didn't keep copies of the website) their rules stated that with a graduate degree I only needed 3 years experience. anyway, now as of today a Master's degree is nothing to them.

Oh, and before AACROA the state told me to go to a different company. and they canceled their contract with the state of WI in the middle of the process and just send me everything back and refunded my fee excluding $ 70 for shipping. After that the state of WI didn't have any option to evaluate foreign degrees for probably 6 months. Then they came up with AACROA...

Honestly, I had my fair share of dealing with them.


----------



## harriee

.


----------



## ELEPE

HerrKaLeun said:


> I do have a German undergraduate degree (Diplomingenieur) and will graduate from the UW-Madison as Master of Engineering this week. I also have 4+ years of experience in the US. I did pass the FE in 2007 in the first try.
> My problem is that the licensing board first had an evaluation firm (ECEI) they accepted. After I sent them my documents they canceled their work with WI licensing board and sent me my papers back and partially reimbursed my fee. then the board didn't have anyone doing evaluations of foreign degrees for a while. Then state licensing board told me to go to a company AACROA and they gave me an evaluation that my degree is " equal or better then a US bachelor". But then the licensing board didn't accept AACROA evaluations (apparently they never talked to them about what requirements they have). AACROA canceled their contract with WI licensing board too. Now WI has a new firm they (allegedly) accept evaluations from. But they require my German university to send in all documents in English (I'm not allowed to touch them). Problem is, my German university is small and they don't have any program documents in English and only release documents in the official language (German). Does anyone else have experience with that? Graduate school would accept my German documents. Anyway, I likely won't get a useful evaluation. Actually, passing the FE exam and attending graduate school was easier then dealing with these impossible-to-achieve requirements to get an evaluation.
> 
> Now my question:
> 
> - will they accept my US Masters degree? The official language is " 4 year degree" and all ABET accredited degrees are BS degrees. (the UW MAdison Mechanical engineering BS program is listed). In my world, a masters degree always trumps a BS. but we deal with state regulators here.
> 
> - will they count my work experience up to now even when that was done before graduating from grad school? (remember, in their eyes my German degree is nothing)
> 
> I plan to take the PE exam this fall. I searched for similar problems, but didn't find any.


It really depends on the particular state.

But if they say they require an ABET bachelors degree then a masters will not do, even if the school where you got the masters is ABET accredited. THe masters degree WILL give you one year of work experience that you can apply towards the work experience requirement for the PE exam. If you don't have a bachelors from ABET school (in your case) then you will need several more years of experience before you can take the PE exam.

They evaluate your work experience. Usually you write down what you did and a former supervisor has to vouch for you. Then they count how much design work you actually did. FOr example if you worked as an engineer for 5 years but 3 of the years you did not design then they only count two years of experience.

They will ALWAYS ask for a translated degree. You cannot possibly expect anyone there to read German. This is not Europe where people read and write several languages.


----------



## HerrKaLeun

I applied and signed up for the Octobber test. the board will decide on 8/25.

(I gave them that old evaluation along with the email they sent me that I should get an AACROA evaluation, I also sent them my grad school transcripts)

In parallel I started an NCEES evaluation. Waiting for my German university to send them what they have. Hope that gets done before 8/25. So I hope one method will work.

Today I met an engineer at work who is in a similar or even worse situation. His undergraduate degree is from China and that school is not responding at all when he asked them about transcripts. He has an engineering PhD from the UW-Madison and the department also doesn't acknowledge his degree (PhD also only counts as one year education). why doesn't he just get 3 more PhD to be equal to one ABET accredited bachelor degree? 

I really do hope there is some reasoning among the board members. It really is not common for foreign schools to send all that stuff around. They just don't do that.

If that all doesn't help I'm going to investigate the Minnesota option (since they would accept my graduate degree). Jeez.


----------



## Somerset

My BS from China is not treated as ABET so I have to need 7 years of experience----frustrating.

Luckily, my MS from University of Cincinnati gave me 1 year credit. I finally got my transcript from my University in China because the Library has the program---as long as you pay, your transcipt can be translated and sealed and mail to wherevwe-------Lucky.

If the mountain does not move, you need move to close to mountain-----You need make the Board happy.


----------



## afewgood

EM_PS said:


> milton7137 said:
> 
> 
> 
> i am from a 3rd world country. during the sending procedure, we do some fake arrangement which show that the documents were sent from the university.in your case, translate a copy of your transcript and diploma in english. and send the package to your country to your friend who will help you posting them to the right place. ask your friend to get the english documents signed by your university. or if possible, forge everything-----------------------. that is the only way to fulfill what they ask without knowing how the foreign county runs ? they just know the USA way and nothing else.
> 
> 
> 
> Wtf?! please feel free to return to your 3rd world country anytime
Click to expand...

damn. you are rude but practical.


----------



## ironman

If they keep accepting forign degrees and transfering the credits and letting them get PE's no matter how much experience they have then US citizen engineers are going to have a tougher time getting good jobs and a good bill rate. Its hard enough to get young people to enter these fields from the US and it will be even harder competing with 3rd worlders (china and india included) who have sketchy degrees and are willing to work for 10 cents an hour or at the very least are soaking up good paying US jobs even if they are not contribuing to the wage deflation. China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time). India is a little better but never the less I dont want to compete with them, if there is some indian who has done some truely profound work (like nobel prize stuff) then let him in but otherwise I dont want to be competeing with some indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box.


----------



## STEEL MAN

ironman said:


> If they keep accepting forign degrees and transfering the credits and letting them get PE's no matter how much experience they have then US citizen engineers are going to have a tougher time getting good jobs and a good bill rate. Its hard enough to get young people to enter these fields from the US and it will be even harder competing with 3rd worlders (china and india included) who have sketchy degrees and are willing to work for 10 cents an hour or at the very least are soaking up good paying US jobs even if they are not contribuing to the wage deflation. China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time). India is a little better but never the less I dont want to compete with them, if there is some indian who has done some truely profound work (like nobel prize stuff) then let him in but otherwise I dont want to be competeing with some indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box.



hmm, this topic interest me, I did have an evaluation with AACRAO, all my BSCE and MS Eng degrees are US Equivalent, that was why I was admitted FE and now passed and will soon write PE Civil.

Coming from Fareast myself, I wont accept $0.10 per hr hw can you live in North America where everthing is expensive? Minimum at least $25 per hr would be reasonable bt still underpaid for that matter. No, if thay are what you think fraud, then by all means AACRAO will figure ot, they have all the list of foreign schools including the degrees offered in that school, go to their website so that you will know. Do further research.

Good luck guys.


----------



## ironman

STEEL MAN said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they keep accepting forign degrees and transfering the credits and letting them get PE's no matter how much experience they have then US citizen engineers are going to have a tougher time getting good jobs and a good bill rate. Its hard enough to get young people to enter these fields from the US and it will be even harder competing with 3rd worlders (china and india included) who have sketchy degrees and are willing to work for 10 cents an hour or at the very least are soaking up good paying US jobs even if they are not contribuing to the wage deflation. China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time). India is a little better but never the less I dont want to compete with them, if there is some indian who has done some truely profound work (like nobel prize stuff) then let him in but otherwise I dont want to be competeing with some indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, this topic interest me, I did have an evaluation with AACRAO, all my BSCE and MS Eng degrees are US Equivalent, that was why I was admitted FE and now passed and will soon write PE Civil.
> 
> Coming from Fareast myself, I wont accept $0.10 per hr hw can you live in North America where everthing is expensive? Minimum at least $25 per hr would be reasonable bt still underpaid for that matter. No, if thay are what you think fraud, then by all means AACRAO will figure ot, they have all the list of foreign schools including the degrees offered in that school, go to their website so that you will know. Do further research.
> 
> Good luck guys.
Click to expand...

Even if they are qualified and everything checks out I dont want to compete with them (unless they are of VERY high value like nobel prize winner), there are not enough good paying jobs in the USA to be importing engineers and the costs of living are getting to high to have people from a thrid world (or second world) driving bill rates down.


----------



## Chucktown PE

ironman said:


> STEEL MAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they keep accepting forign degrees and transfering the credits and letting them get PE's no matter how much experience they have then US citizen engineers are going to have a tougher time getting good jobs and a good bill rate. Its hard enough to get young people to enter these fields from the US and it will be even harder competing with 3rd worlders (china and india included) who have sketchy degrees and are willing to work for 10 cents an hour or at the very least are soaking up good paying US jobs even if they are not contribuing to the wage deflation. China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time). India is a little better but never the less I dont want to compete with them, if there is some indian who has done some truely profound work (like nobel prize stuff) then let him in but otherwise I dont want to be competeing with some indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, this topic interest me, I did have an evaluation with AACRAO, all my BSCE and MS Eng degrees are US Equivalent, that was why I was admitted FE and now passed and will soon write PE Civil.
> 
> Coming from Fareast myself, I wont accept $0.10 per hr hw can you live in North America where everthing is expensive? Minimum at least $25 per hr would be reasonable bt still underpaid for that matter. No, if thay are what you think fraud, then by all means AACRAO will figure ot, they have all the list of foreign schools including the degrees offered in that school, go to their website so that you will know. Do further research.
> 
> Good luck guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even if they are qualified and everything checks out I dont want to compete with them (unless they are of VERY high value like nobel prize winner), there are not enough good paying jobs in the USA to be importing engineers and the costs of living are getting to high to have people from a thrid world (or second world) driving bill rates down.
Click to expand...

So you only want nobel prize winning engineers to come to the United States? That's very selective. Seeing as how there are only three Nobel prizes in the sciences awarded every year (Chemistry, Physics, and Medicine or Physiology), and assuming all of those Nobel prize winning engineers come to the United States, and they work for 30 years after they win their Nobel prize, that's only 90 extra engineers that we're "importing".

Most would argue that there are a shortage of engineers in practice and graduating from engineering school.

Might your fear have something to do with the fact that you're worried about having to compete with someone who knows how to form coherent thoughts and write complete sentences that are spelled and punctuated correctly?


----------



## Santiagj

Jeez... just got done reading this thread. Rpearso your grammar/spelling is getting worse. How is that possible?


----------



## ironman

Chucktown PE said:


> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> STEEL MAN said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ironman said:
> 
> 
> 
> If they keep accepting forign degrees and transfering the credits and letting them get PE's no matter how much experience they have then US citizen engineers are going to have a tougher time getting good jobs and a good bill rate. Its hard enough to get young people to enter these fields from the US and it will be even harder competing with 3rd worlders (china and india included) who have sketchy degrees and are willing to work for 10 cents an hour or at the very least are soaking up good paying US jobs even if they are not contribuing to the wage deflation. China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time). India is a little better but never the less I dont want to compete with them, if there is some indian who has done some truely profound work (like nobel prize stuff) then let him in but otherwise I dont want to be competeing with some indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> hmm, this topic interest me, I did have an evaluation with AACRAO, all my BSCE and MS Eng degrees are US Equivalent, that was why I was admitted FE and now passed and will soon write PE Civil.
> 
> Coming from Fareast myself, I wont accept $0.10 per hr hw can you live in North America where everthing is expensive? Minimum at least $25 per hr would be reasonable bt still underpaid for that matter. No, if thay are what you think fraud, then by all means AACRAO will figure ot, they have all the list of foreign schools including the degrees offered in that school, go to their website so that you will know. Do further research.
> 
> Good luck guys.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Even if they are qualified and everything checks out I dont want to compete with them (unless they are of VERY high value like nobel prize winner), there are not enough good paying jobs in the USA to be importing engineers and the costs of living are getting to high to have people from a thrid world (or second world) driving bill rates down.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So you only want nobel prize winning engineers to come to the United States? That's very selective. Seeing as how there are only three Nobel prizes in the sciences awarded every year (Chemistry, Physics, and Medicine or Physiology), and assuming all of those Nobel prize winning engineers come to the United States, and they work for 30 years after they win their Nobel prize, that's only 90 extra engineers that we're "importing".
> 
> Most would argue that there are a shortage of engineers in practice and graduating from engineering school.
> 
> Might your fear have something to do with the fact that you're worried about having to compete with someone who knows how to form coherent thoughts and write complete sentences that are spelled and punctuated correctly?
Click to expand...

I am not seeing the shortage, if there were a shortage then you would see all kinds of job openings and bill rates would be rising to attract the supposed "few" engineers out there but thats not whats really happening. You would see open positions that no one has even applied to, but thats also not happening.

My senator also said there was a shortage, however, just making that statement does not make it true, again not seeing the bill rates nor the open positions. Maybe im wrong and its just taking a few months for things to get traction and we will see all kinds of positions come open across the board in the very near future.


----------



## misafir

How come HerrKaLeun is allowed to sit FE Exam but not PE because of his educational backround.

Educational credits are calculated during FE application and experience requirements fullfilled afterwards to sit PE.

At least this is what happened with me. I was required 6 years of experience to sit PE.

I submitted my application with NYS Board of Education to arrive at once; the original transcript, word by word translation of a copy, a separate credential evaluation, and all other forms; supported by persistent phone calls and emails.

When I submitted required experience a year later, I got the green light.

@Ironman

By law, H1B workers(foreign engineers) are required to represent a salary more than the average depending on the employer's locality.

If you are complaining that engineers in US are underpaid , unfortunately engineering is a low paid occupation all over the world.


----------



## STEEL MAN

misafir said:


> How come HerrKaLeun is allowed to sit FE Exam but not PE because of his educational backround.Educational credits are calculated during FE application and experience requirements fullfilled afterwards to sit PE.
> 
> At least this is what happened with me. I was required 6 years of experience to sit PE.
> 
> I submitted my application with NYS Board of Education to arrive at once; the original transcript, word by word translation of a copy, a separate credential evaluation, and all other forms; supported by persistent phone calls and emails.
> 
> When I submitted required experience a year later, I got the green light.
> 
> @Ironman
> 
> By law, H1B workers(foreign engineers) are required to represent a salary more than the average depending on the employer's locality.
> 
> If you are complaining that engineers in US are underpaid , unfortunately engineering is a low paid occupation all over the world.



misafir,

I agree, youre right, You cant lower youre price you have to follow the salary scale, engineers are not paid well and it is a difficult job, stressful and demands more time from you.

Once I pass PE Civil I'll try my luck in States and see what happens.


----------



## STEEL MAN

STEEL MAN said:


> misafir said:
> 
> 
> 
> How come HerrKaLeun is allowed to sit FE Exam but not PE because of his educational backround.Educational credits are calculated during FE application and experience requirements fullfilled afterwards to sit PE.
> 
> At least this is what happened with me. I was required 6 years of experience to sit PE.
> 
> I submitted my application with NYS Board of Education to arrive at once; the original transcript, word by word translation of a copy, a separate credential evaluation, and all other forms; supported by persistent phone calls and emails.
> 
> When I submitted required experience a year later, I got the green light.
> 
> @Ironman
> 
> By law, H1B workers(foreign engineers) are required to represent a salary more than the average depending on the employer's locality.
> 
> If you are complaining that engineers in US are underpaid , unfortunately engineering is a low paid occupation all over the world.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> misafir,
> 
> I agree, youre right, You cant lower youre price you have to follow the salary scale, engineers are not paid well and it is a difficult job, stressful and demands more time from you.
> 
> Once I pass PE Civil I'll try my luck in States and see what happens.
Click to expand...


engineers from ABET Univ shouldnt feel like this, I could have thought they are nice and good engineers but not true. I viewed that from Far East all the books we used are from the 1st world and when you get get here, the reality, they might be threatened or misunderstood engineers from foreign land, we are just merely trying our best to practice competitively in North America, our success depends on how we perform and opportunities we might come across here. They didnt know how hard to cross the continents and get qualified even to sit in exams like FE and PE for us, you couldnt imagine the struggle I went through I have experienced it and for most foreign engineers. Just so they would know.


----------



## Somerset

ironman said:


> If they keep accepting forign degrees and transfering the credits and letting them get PE's no matter how much experience they have then US citizen engineers are going to have a tougher time getting good jobs and a good bill rate. Its hard enough to get young people to enter these fields from the US and it will be even harder competing with 3rd worlders (china and india included) who have sketchy degrees and are willing to work for 10 cents an hour or at the very least are soaking up good paying US jobs even if they are not contribuing to the wage deflation. China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time). India is a little better but never the less I dont want to compete with them, if there is some indian who has done some truely profound work (like nobel prize stuff) then let him in but otherwise I dont want to be competeing with some indian who got their degree out of a cracker jack box.


It is interesting to see engineers to discuss the polotical questions as mechanics fix the PC issues with hammer!!!

I would think the US policy-make will close the door to prevent foreign engineers entering US if it can make the country better! I also would think majority memeber of the state education board are smart person as well becasue they are either P.E. or Doctor or both. They probably evaulated similar thoughts you had already.

As a engineer, show me your proof "China has massive issues with plagerism and academic dishonesty, they have not done one original thing technically in a very long time (like 1000's of years long time)", otherwise, you can not claim yourself as an engineer!

I believe that "1+1=2" no matter where you live.


----------

