# Avoid Global Warming - Paint the Roofs and Roads White



## Wolverine (May 28, 2009)

Setting aside for a moment the diversally-insensitive argument that white roads are somehow superior to black roads (a position I will boldly declare the majority of Americans do not ascribe to), I would like to propose that the Energy Secretary is perhaps a moron.

[SIZE=12pt]*Energy Secretary's White-Paint Proposal Puzzles Climate-Change Experts*[/SIZE]

Energy Secretary Steven Chu stunned the audience at a London scientific conference Tuesday with a radical but simple proposal to combat global warming: Paint all the roofs of all the buildings in the world white.

If we did so, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist said, and if we also made sure the world's roads and sidewalks were light-colored, it would have the same effect on global warming as taking all the cars in the world off the world's roads for 11 years.

But at least one science expert thinks Chu is nuts.

"It's past simplistic -- it's ridiculous," says Steven Milloy, publisher of junkscience.com and an avowed climate-change skeptic.

But Dr. Gordon Bonan, a climate scientist at the National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo., says there's a kernel of truth in the science behind Chu's idea.

"That's been a pretty standard idea many for many years now," says Bonan. "It's related to the idea of an urban heat island -- that a big city will generate a large amount of heat. In urban planning and urban design, the idea is that painting roofs white will absorb less solar radiation and keep the city cooler."

"You could try to extend this idea to the entire planet, but I've never seen any numbers on how much impact this would have on the Earth's surface temperature," says Bonan. *"The urban [surface] area of the world is pretty small*.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,522411...test=latestnews

Better yet, let's put MIRRORS on all the roofs and roads - that will reflect the heat.


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## Chucktown PE (May 28, 2009)

Are these people that fucking stupid? The heat will be there whether you reflect it or not. All you'll do is diffuse the energy a bit more but the plain and simple fact is that you aren't reducing the amount of energy that the sun is transmitting to the earth. Scary that this dumbass is the Energy Secretary. This fuckwad will probably win a nobel prize for his horseshit theory.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> Are these people that fucking stupid?


Yep.


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## MGX (May 28, 2009)

Um, the Nobel Prize is a political prize, not a scientific one.


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## Flyer_PE (May 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> Are these people that fucking stupid?






Capt Worley PE said:


> Yep.


I haven't quite figured out if they are that stupid or they think we are. I beginning to think it may be both.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 28, 2009)

MGX said:


> Um, the Nobel Prize is a political prize, not a scientific one.


Yes, but since there is a Nobel prize for science...



Flyer_PE said:


> I haven't quite figured out if they are that stupid or they think we are. I beginning to think it may be both.


If by 'we' you mean the populace in general, yes, we are that stupid, too.


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## Flyer_PE (May 28, 2009)

Capt Worley PE said:


> If by 'we' you mean the populace in general, yes, we are that stupid, too.



I did indeed mean the population in general. Sadly, I believe you are correct.


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## Guest (May 28, 2009)

Now I can add white roofs to the list of lattes and money for things that I like.

JR


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## Wolverine (May 28, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> This f*wad will probably win a nobel prize for his horseshitake theory.


Oops, too late... he's already got one. Did you mean a second one?

Steven Chu

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steven Chu, Ph.D (born February 28, 1948),[3] is an American physicist and currently the 12th United States Secretary of Energy. As a scientist, Chu is known for his research in cooling and trapping of atoms with laser light, *which won him the Nobel Prize in Physics in 1997*.[3] At the time of his appointment as Energy Secretary, he was a professor of physics and molecular and cellular biology at the University of California, Berkeley and the director of the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, where his research was concerned primarily with the study of biological systems at the single molecule level.[1] He is a vocal advocate for more research into alternative energy and nuclear power, arguing that a shift away from fossil fuels is essential to combat global warming.[4][5][6] US Energy Secretary Steven Chu said Tuesday the Obama administration wanted to paint roofs an energy-reflecting white to increase the average global albedo.

I'll take "Scientists So Focused on Minutiae That They Can't See The Forest For the Trees" Alex, for $500. 

"Biological systems at the single molecule level" indeed.


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## Flyer_PE (May 28, 2009)

Just an observation: Ever notice that most of the global warming zealots don't have degrees in anything having to do with weather? Most of them seem to be biologists.


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## humner (May 28, 2009)

Flyer_PE said:


> Just an observation: Ever notice that most of the global warming zealots don't have degrees in anything having to do with weather? Most of them seem to be biologists.


Um, don't forget about the pessimistic politicians like Al Gore, he is making a fortune off of global warming, bring on the heat! LOL


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## IlPadrino (May 28, 2009)

Not sure why everyone calls this "idiotic"... I know just enough about large systems that they're a lot more complicated than they might appear. I believe there could be lots of second and third order effects (what does making all that paint due to the system?) but I'm not ready to call it laughable (even if I agree it could be).


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## snickerd3 (May 28, 2009)

sometimes I have a hard even time seeing in the winter due to the blaring whiteness of the snow, they start painting everything white and I bet many people will have similar issues.


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## MGX (May 28, 2009)

This is just another attempt by the man to white-wash me with his lies!


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## rudy (May 29, 2009)

I think there is some credence to painting things white making the temperature cooler. I have no numbers to show, but we all know that dark colors absorb heat, and light colors reflect it. I've used this line of thinking when the kids and I go for walks on a sunny day, and we all wear light clothes to stay cool.

Maybe painting things gray to avoid being blinded by all the white colors. Painting things white may not make a huge impact, but it's a good place to start.


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## wilheldp_PE (May 29, 2009)

Painting things white makes them reflect instead of absorb energy from the sun. The problem with that is two-fold. One, even though heat islands are reduced, a portion of the reflected energy gets trapped in our atmosphere which will raise the temperature of the environment anyway. So instead of there being radiant heat coming off of black surfaces making us feel hotter at ground level, the entire atmosphere will heat up more. Secondly, having a white roof on a building is great in summertime because your utility bills for air conditioning will be lower. However, the utility bills in winter will increase since your building isn't absorbing as much heat from the sun. So in mild to cold climates, where there are more heating days than cooling days, this is actually counter-productive.


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## Capt Worley PE (May 29, 2009)

The Stones said 'Paint it Black' and that's what I'm gonna do.


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## IlPadrino (May 29, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> Not sure why everyone calls this "idiotic"... I know just enough about large systems that they're a lot more complicated than they might appear. I believe there could be lots of second and third order effects (what does making all that paint due to the system?) but I'm not ready to call it laughable (even if I agree it could be).


Maybe not so laughable...

Wikipedia - Albedo

Geoengineering, adaptation and mitigation, Part 2: White roofs are the trillion-dollar solution


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## Guest (May 29, 2009)

WARNING: I am not an expert but want to throw in my :2cents:



wilheldp_PE said:


> Painting things white makes them reflect instead of absorb energy from the sun. The problem with that is two-fold. One, even though heat islands are reduced, a portion of the reflected energy gets trapped in our atmosphere which will raise the temperature of the environment anyway. *So instead of there being radiant heat coming off of black surfaces making us feel hotter at ground level, the entire atmosphere will heat up more.* Secondly, having a white roof on a building is great in summertime because your utility bills for air conditioning will be lower. However, the utility bills in winter will increase since your building isn't absorbing as much heat from the sun. So in mild to cold climates, where there are more heating days than cooling days, this is actually counter-productive.


I see this as being the major pitfall when looking at energy (heat) balances - especially when people grip onto the concept of greenhouse gases being the major culprit for global warming.



Capt Worley PE said:


> The Stones said 'Paint it Black' and that's what I'm gonna do.


:th_rockon:



IlPadrino said:


> Maybe not so laughable...
> Wikipedia - Albedo
> 
> Geoengineering, adaptation and mitigation, Part 2: White roofs are the trillion-dollar solution


I am willing to accept that this news 'snippet' has been taken out of context and perhaps conflated to distort some of the meaning.

I think what comes across as laughable is the notion that this broad brushed stroke (pun intended), as presented, is patently absurd because it is not: 1. feasible and 2. aesthetically pleasing in the least, just for starters - forget the science. Keeping in mind that this statement was made from the person *RESPONSIBLE* for energy policy in this country now.

Before I left my state agency job, I told one of my colleagues who was convinced I was a traitor to my principles of environmental stewardship that "... there are no honest brokers ...." meaning that no matter who you work for (private, public, stakeholder) that somebody has an agenda and isn't putting the issues before their interests.

With the statements I see coming from Dept of Energy, I would say it is *STILL* true despite statements from the Obama administration that things would change.

JR


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## IlPadrino (May 29, 2009)

jregieng said:


> I think what comes across as laughable is the notion that this broad brushed stroke (pun intended), as presented, is patently absurd because it is not: 1. feasible and 2. aesthetically pleasing in the least, just for starters - forget the science. Keeping in mind that this statement was made from the person *RESPONSIBLE* for energy policy in this country now.


Regarding aesthetics, I thought the suggestion was only to paint flat roofs - they're mostly seen from space!

When I read the original article the first thought that came to mind was "it's a great think globally, act locally" idea, even if the outcome is uncertain.


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## Chucktown PE (May 29, 2009)

Then go paint your roof IlPadrino. I'll keep my black shingles and green standing seam.


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## Guest (May 29, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> When I read the original article the first thought that came to mind was "it's a great think globally, act locally" idea, even if the outcome is uncertain.


To some degree, I can agree with you. However, when you place it in the mix of other things that fit the mold (e.g. recycling), it doesn't work because people exhibit inherent inertia when adopting to something new without a REQUIREMENT .. something that is akin (pun intended) to Akin's Law No. 13: _Design is based on requirements. There's no justification for designing something one bit "better" than the requirements dictate._

By adding the element of uncertainty to the outcome, one only makes this notion less palatable.

Now, to take this discussion one step further, if you entertain ChucktownPE's response, a person whom I consider reasonably intelligent for the purposes of the illustration, he has offered an emphatic *NO* - that's what I mean by the lack of implementability.

JR


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## IlPadrino (May 29, 2009)

Chucktown PE said:


> Then go paint your roof IlPadrino. I'll keep my black shingles and green standing seam.


I don't have a flat roof and this isn't about shingles! If it was, we'd be talking about federal-mandates on shingle manufacture...


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## IlPadrino (May 29, 2009)

jregieng said:


> To some degree, I can agree with you. However, when you place it in the mix of other things that fit the mold (e.g. recycling), it doesn't work because people exhibit inherent inertia when adopting to something new without a REQUIREMENT .. something that is akin (pun intended) to Akin's Law No. 13: _Design is based on requirements. There's no justification for designing something one bit "better" than the requirements dictate._
> By adding the element of uncertainty to the outcome, one only makes this notion less palatable.
> 
> Now, to take this discussion one step further, if you entertain ChucktownPE's response, a person whom I consider reasonably intelligent for the purposes of the illustration, he has offered an emphatic *NO* - that's what I mean by the lack of implementability.
> ...


What about LEED? Can one of our resident LEED AP's answer if there's a LEED credit for white roofs?


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## Supe (May 29, 2009)

Can't we just paint all the solar panels and windmills white? Or how about Obama and his cabinet's heads! Just think of all the hot air dispersed from that!


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## Chucktown PE (May 29, 2009)

Why don't we just use rainbows as roofs. Rainbows powered by European unicorns that is.


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## MGX (May 29, 2009)

I wonder just how low the global temperatures can sink when we're all driving white Government Motors vehicles in our garages with white roofs.


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## C-Dog (Jun 10, 2009)

Seriously, he actually makes a good point about white roofs, espeacially in commercial buildings, whose HVAC load is mainly cooling.

When I replace my driveway, I am going to use concrete, since it will be much cooler than the current black pavement.

Ever notice in the winter, it is always colder when there is a snow pack? It is because the light is being reflected and not absorbed and converted into thermal energy.


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## ddddyyyy (Jun 16, 2009)

I agree with Wolverine

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## Sschell (Jun 17, 2009)

ddddyyyy said:


> I agree with Wolverine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^woah! who's buying sex toys from china!?! I would be worried about lead paint... or whatever the hell they put in the walmart flip flops....



Supe said:


> Can't we just paint all the solar panels and windmills white? Or how about Obama and his cabinet's heads! Just think of all the hot air dispersed from that!


Did you just suggest we paint Obama white?


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## Supe (Jun 17, 2009)

dude said:


> ^woah! who's buying sex toys from china!?! I would be worried about lead paint... or whatever the hell they put in the walmart flip flops....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Right along with his entire cabinet. Only their heads, though. With an environmentally friendly paint, of course.


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## C-Dog (Jun 17, 2009)

Interesting, while risky, still interesting...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=105483423

Though, the one thing that will slow our CO2 emmissions is $4 for a gallon of the devil's juice...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=105490021


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## txaggie (Jun 19, 2009)

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha........wait.........hahahahahahahahaha....so where does the Obama administration think all this paint will be produced considering they are putting a cap on emissions on industry...who is going to produce all the paint when the plants can't fire up their systems because they are producing CO2. The people in charge are crazy as hell and just keep feeding this bs to the general public. Absolutely unreal.


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## Guest (Jun 19, 2009)

ddddyyyy said:


> I agree with Wolverine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think you get +1 for just agreeing with Wolverine ....

++1 for the URLS ... too funny!! :laugh:



C-Dog said:


> Interesting, while risky, still interesting...
> http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.p...oryId=105483423


A serious question:

Do you believe that if scientists/engineers can successfully implement the sun screen and bring global temperatures down that the purported crises will be averted?



txaggie said:


> hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha........wait.........hahahahahahahahaha....so where does the Obama administration think all this paint will be produced considering they are putting a cap on emissions on industry...who is going to produce all the paint when the plants can't fire up their systems because they are producing CO2. The people in charge are crazy as hell and just keep feeding this bs to the general public. Absolutely unreal.


And keep laughing ... that's what we like ... keeping it funny!!! :Locolaugh: :Locolaugh:

JR


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## TouchDown (Jun 19, 2009)

I'm going to stop by and purchase 500 gallons of white paint on my way home. I think everyone should do the same. Make a run before everyone buys it up.

Seriously though, In my 400,000 sq ft. plant, the cost of cooling is about 3X the cost of warming in the winter. We have a lot of other heat sources in the plant. Not a lot of "cooling" sources in the plant. So, I could see for industry the benefit of white roofs. When you start moving outside and discussing heating up the air and ambient conditions in an open air space... I get a little lost on how effective it would be and what impact you would have whatsoever. White pavement? I have a difficult time doing the energy summation equation on the real impact for that one. It might make it a little more comfortable for people to walk from the parkinglot into the air conditioned WalMart where they buy all the unnecessary Made in China Dispensible crap that we fill out lives with. Similar discussion to the hybrid car and batteries, or electric car and coal fire power plants to power the cars. When you add up the benefits, someone must have forgot to carry the one.


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## Dleg (Jul 5, 2009)

We've been painting our roofs white out here in the tropics "since ever since" to save energy costs (cuts down the aircon usage). It was one of the key things I did when I renovated our house 6 years ago - I purchased $1000 of white elastomeric roof coating. It was pretty much a standard contractor line item. Everyone does it - it's common sense.


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## maryannette (Jul 5, 2009)

Some school buses have white tops.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 6, 2009)

Most Minis do, too!


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## IlPadrino (Jul 6, 2009)

Dleg said:


> We've been painting our roofs white out here in the tropics "since ever since" to save energy costs (cuts down the aircon usage). It was one of the key things I did when I renovated our house 6 years ago - I purchased $1000 of white elastomeric roof coating. It was pretty much a standard contractor line item. Everyone does it - it's common sense.


Wait... so it's not idiotic?!? Someone better tell Chuck.


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## Wolverine (Jul 6, 2009)

Weighing in again:

The point I want to make is not whether white or black or gray is more efficient as a roof coating (I personally reshingled with gray), but instead that this kind of nonsense put forth as science, saving the planet from the Global Warming Apocolypse, is pure whitewashed CRAP!

It doesn't mathematically make sense. You can't outconserve your growth rate.

For example: if there was an immediate, across the board 10% reduction in U.S. energy usage due to conservation (an outrageously optimistic number), in three years, growth would eclipse the conservation yielding nothing but a 3-year delay in increase. So you would have to conserve 10% more to gain another 3 years... but you can't keep cutting 10%, unless of course you want to cancel growth. Is anybody in favor of recession? And that's ignores the growth in China, India, and South America.

I believe in being a good steward of the planet and trying to minimize impact, but if the Adults In Charge are promoting white paint as a cure for Global Warming, they are *MORONS *- arrogant, self-important, Ivory-Tower dwelling morons, with no idea how absolutely big the planet is and how absolutely small we are. The man-made square footage of impervious surface on the planet is a _postage stamp on a football field_. What percentage of that postage stamp can you paint white to change the temperature of the football field by one degree?

Maybe they're not morons and know exactly what they're doing. That makes them scam artists. I'll accept that explanation as well.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 6, 2009)

Scam artists.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 6, 2009)

Wolverine said:


> I believe in being a good steward of the planet and trying to minimize impact, but if the Adults In Charge are promoting white paint as a cure for Global Warming, they are *MORONS *- arrogant, self-important, Ivory-Tower dwelling morons, with no idea how absolutely big the planet is and how absolutely small we are. The man-made square footage of impervious surface on the planet is a _postage stamp on a football field_. What percentage of that postage stamp can you paint white to change the temperature of the football field by one degree?


While I agree with all your comments about growth rate, I still support a "think globally, act locally" mentality. If a white roof helps you conserve electricity from reduced air conditioning, I say have at!

And, yeah, probably scam artists... but aren't all politicians?


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## Dleg (Jul 6, 2009)

^I look at it exactly as IlPadrino does. I have no idea what the reasons are they are giving for painting roofs white in Washington. But from an energy usage point of view, it works. If it didn't work, people out here wouldn't have been doing it, voluntarily, for the past 30+ years. And let me tell you, at 40 cents a kilowatt hour (last summer's prices around here), every little bit helps.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 7, 2009)

I don't see why we don't go back to tin roofs, at least in the South. Highly reflective, and they last for-freakin-ever.

Big, wide front porches help a lot, too.


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## Guest (Jul 7, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> While I agree with all your comments about growth rate, I still support a "think globally, act locally" mentality. If a white roof helps you conserve electricity from reduced air conditioning, I say have at!
> And, yeah, probably scam artists... but aren't all politicians?





Dleg said:


> ^I look at it exactly as IlPadrino does. I have no idea what the reasons are they are giving for painting roofs white in Washington. But from an energy usage point of view, it works. If it didn't work, people out here wouldn't have been doing it, voluntarily, for the past 30+ years. And let me tell you, at 40 cents a kilowatt hour (last summer's prices around here), every little bit helps.


I don't have a problem with the notion that you can realize a savings in electrical cost by using white paint. In fact, I have noted that a number of building codes are moving towards incorporating energy saving/reducing features as required codes. I haven't thought it through ... but I probably don't have much of a problem even with that notion.

Like Wolvie said - I have an issue with the person who is the head of the agency that is leading the charge for energy conservancy and, now, apparently climate change and say that rolling out this measure en-masse is a solution to climate change. The problem is that it isn't FEASIBLE because you don't have a social consciousness that this is the right thing to do. So, how can one parade this out as a solution if it is basically DOA?

I don't see it much different from recycling waste materials or conserving water or reducing gas consumption - the resource conservation component has not kicked-in. And why should it? We live in a country of consumption ... and I don't see that changing, not through aesthetically (or not) pleasing white-roofed houses or legislation.

That's my :2cents:

JR


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## IlPadrino (Jul 7, 2009)

jregieng said:


> Like Wolvie said - I have an issue with the person who is the head of the agency that is leading the charge for energy conservancy and, now, apparently climate change and say that rolling out this measure en-masse is a solution to climate change. The problem is that it isn't FEASIBLE because you don't have a social consciousness that this is the right thing to do. So, how can one parade this out as a solution if it is basically DOA?


I thought he said "If we did so, the Nobel Prize-winning physicist said, and if we also made sure the world's roads and sidewalks were light-colored, it would have the same effect on global warming as taking all the cars in the world off the world's roads for 11 years."

So it's far from *the* solution. Just something that helpsm, even if only a little.


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## CivE Bricky (Jul 7, 2009)

This whole debate brings to mind the "buy duct tape and plastic" directive....remember that one?


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## Dleg (Jul 7, 2009)

^Not really. That was a paranoia thing, that would only benefit you in the extremely rare event a terrorist attacked your town with a biological agent.

Painting your roof white will give you an immediate, real return on your investment (if you live in a wamr climate and use air conditioning.

It's just a conservation measure, meant to be one of many. I believe it has just been twisted around by others into the "solution for global warming".

Capt: corrugated tin gets pretty hot, too. That's my roof, and the white elastomeric makes a significant difference compared to the bare tin. I can't even get up on a bare tin roof until about an hour after sundown, but I can sit on my white painted roof with no discomfort at noon.


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## IlPadrino (Jul 8, 2009)

Dleg said:


> but I can sit on my white painted roof with no discomfort at noon.


I don't want to know what you're doing sitting on your roof at noon.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jul 8, 2009)

IlPadrino said:


> I don't want to know what you're doing sitting on your roof at noon.


Drinking, I hope.


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## Supe (Jul 8, 2009)

The real reason the Obama administration wants to paint the roofs white: to provide painting jobs to illegals.


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## Capt Worley PE (Jul 8, 2009)

Dleg said:


> Capt: corrugated tin gets pretty hot, too. That's my roof, and the white elastomeric makes a significant difference compared to the bare tin. I can't even get up on a bare tin roof until about an hour after sundown, but I can sit on my white painted roof with no discomfort at noon.


Pretty loud in a rainstorm, too, as I recall.


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## Dleg (Jul 8, 2009)

Very^^



wilheldp_PE said:


> Drinking, I hope.


Nope - fixing leaks! My renovation contractor made some crucial mistakes with the way he installed the flashing along the edges of the raised parapet wall. If I don't regularly maintain the roofing tar seal along there, it leaks.

My fault for not watching him like a hawk.

ldman:


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## JoeBoone82 (Sep 25, 2009)

from NSPE's Daily Design email today:

New York City Mayor Urges Residents To Paint Rooftops White.

The AP (9/24) reports that although New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg wants New Yorkers to paint their rooftops white to make buildings cooler and more energy efficient...the city hasn't painted hundreds of its own buildings." Although the city "has identified some 300 buildings that could benefit from the simple makeover," no painting has been done. The AP notes, "The mayor's much-hyped 2007 environmental plan noted the benefits of the practice, and the city's overhauled building code in 2008 included cool roof requirements for most new buildings and renovations."


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