# defense contracting agencies



## rppearso (Feb 11, 2010)

Does anyone know who the defense contracting agencies are, like job shops that get people jobs at places like lockheed martin, etc.


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## benbo (Feb 12, 2010)

rppearso said:


> Does anyone know who the defense contracting agencies are, like job shops that get people jobs at places like lockheed martin, etc.


Can't you just apply directly to those companies or go through Monster?

I know Aerotek hires for those places around here, but a lot of people don't like Aerotek.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

Aerotek is horrible here. The couple of guys I know who work(ed) for Lockheed applied directly.


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## rppearso (Feb 12, 2010)

You can apply direct but I have found it to be almost impossible to even get an interview, I have noticed with an employment agency you have alot better odds, especially since if I did this I would be changing industrys so it would be almost as if I had no experience. I tried applying for lockheed out of school and that did not work out at all.


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## Capt Worley PE (Feb 12, 2010)

rppearso said:


> You can apply direct but I have found it to be almost impossible to even get an interview,


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## roadwreck (Feb 12, 2010)

I know several people who work for or have worked for Lockheed. All of them applied directly, so saying it's almost impossible to do is a bunch of crap.


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## benbo (Feb 12, 2010)

rppearso said:


> You can apply direct but I have found it to be almost impossible to even get an interview, I have noticed with an employment agency you have alot better odds, especially since if I did this I would be changing industrys so it would be almost as if I had no experience. I tried applying for lockheed out of school and that did not work out at all.


I got all my jobs, including a couple in aerospace, right out of the newspaper or off the internet. I've also gotten about 100 interviews this way in my life. In several industries.

Of course, I wasn't expecting $200K to start.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

One other thing to consider when using a placement agency: Our company puts out information (to each office manager) concerning employee retainage rates based on how they were hired. They have basically found that most of the employees who come from a headhunter are gone within 6 months (+/- 80%) with almost ALL of them gone within a year (+/-95%). The speculation is that the headhunter inflates the skills of the person looking for a job, he gets hired, then the company finds out what he's actually capable of doing (or the employee leaves for the next "grass is greener" job).

Basically headhunters can get you a job more easily, but unless you can live up to their built-up hype, you won't last long.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

If you can't get an interview on your own merits from applying directly, I would take that as a hint...


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## MonteBiker (Feb 12, 2010)

Here we go again...

opcorn:

And I thought I would only hear about one train wreck today!

This of course would be the second...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,585625...test=latestnews


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

MonteBiker said:


> Here we go again...
> opcorn:


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

Here's a good DoD position that I think is always open: Mercenary.


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## MonteBiker (Feb 12, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> Here's a good DoD position that I think is always open: Mercenary.


He may get that... But I wouldn't count on that.

"I'm Awesome and should be hired immediately without having to apply or interview for a 7 figure salary - 101" was not an elective at my school but a certain school (not to be mentioned yet...) may just offer it.


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## rppearso (Feb 12, 2010)

hmm this is very unfortunate the way this thread has turned out, the train wreck was not caused by myself I was simply looking for options. I had negitive experiences applying direct in the past getting thoes little too bad so sad cards in the mail so I thought I would try another route. It sounds like alot of people on here are quiters and just lay down to die, if I did that I would not have my PE right now. If its true that head hunters over inflate skills thats something to be aware of but I dont know how much credibility any of you actually hold with the immediate condesending posts to a benign post about employment agencys.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

I was hired through a headhunter agency as was my office manager. To this day, we are the only 2 in the company (over 450 overall in the company across 6 states) who have lasted longer than 2 years (both pushing 5 years now). When HR gets calls from headhunters, they typically just hang up because of that statistic.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

MonteBiker said:


> "I'm Awesome and should be hired immediately without having to apply or interview for a 7 figure salary - 101" was not an elective at my school but a certain school (not to be mentioned yet...) may just offer it.


I have not seen this class offered at my school either. I heard it's one of the University of Phoenix online classes though.


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## MechGuy (Feb 12, 2010)

I was going to stay quiet at first, but now I can't resist.

:brickwall: :suicide1:

Dude, these guys are right. If you have the experience and qualifications the company is looking for, they'll hire you. A headhunter isn't going to get your foot in the door any better than you could do yourself. A friend in the company might help, but that's about it.

And in my meager opinion ... you shouldn't be looking for defense contractor jobs. They typically like folks who have a *good* opinion about the military, and usually those with some kind of experience with the military or federal government. Since you have neither, I would think that type of job would not be a good fit for you.


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## MonteBiker (Feb 12, 2010)

rppearso said:


> hmm this is very unfortunate the way this thread has turned out, the train wreck was not caused by myself I was simply looking for options. I had negitive experiences applying direct in the past getting thoes little too bad so sad cards in the mail so I thought I would try another route. It sounds like alot of people on here are quiters and just lay down to die, if I did that I would not have my PE right now. If its true that head hunters over inflate skills thats something to be aware of but I dont know how much credibility any of you actually hold with the immediate condesending posts to a benign post about employment agencys.


Credibility:

One National Lab - Applied, Interviewed at and Hired

One Space Research Lab/University Position - Was sought out to work at and they paid for a graduate degree (no loans)

One private well known firm - Applied, Interviewed at and Hired

Apparently merits get you hired... Didn't need any help.


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## Road Guy (Feb 12, 2010)

times are a lot different these days than it was 5 or 15 years ago, when I got out of school, 97, although I had co-op'd and had some experience I still have about 10 different job offers, its just not quite the same, but you also have to have your expectations set at the correct level


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## Dexman PE (Feb 12, 2010)

Road Guy said:


> times are a lot different these days than it was 5 or 15 years ago, when I got out of school, 97, although I had co-op'd and had some experience I still have about 10 different job offers, its just not quite the same, but you also have to have your expectations set at the correct level


True, just because you really want the job doesn't mean they really want to hire you. I received a resume from a friend-of-a-friend who came highly recommended. One look at his resume and I knew he wasn't what we are looking for. I know he's good at what he does, he just didn't have any experience in what we would want him to do. The ironic part is that his resume looks alot like mine did back when I was hired here.

With as many out of work engineers out there, it's easier for companies to be a little more picky with who they hire.


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## rppearso (Feb 14, 2010)

Yea thats all true, its not so much the relationships with the military that interest me its the fundamentals that are applied in thoes industrys that are extremely intersting (edge diffraction theory, antena's, E&amp;M, circuts, lasers, power, etc) thats some pretty cool stuff. I have done well for my self in oil and gas and the pay is way better than most other industries so I will stay in it as long as I can but I think as a transitional retirement I will go for a masters or PhD in optical physics or EE on my own dime (as long as I can accumulate enough dimes in oil and gas) and just do what I want to do, maybe find a professor doing something cool that would be willing to take me on etc. The DOD stuff sounds cool but I think alot of that stuff is probably just as beninge as anything else unless you were on the skunk works or some other "from the ground up" type project where they were going from fundamental theoretical math to a full blown project, although they probably pick thoes people out of universities as grad students or PhD's to do that sort of R&amp;D stuff, you relationships with military and all that is likely totally irrelvant, either they put up with you or they can pick someone else either way im getting to do something cool. In the mean time I am going to pick up my EE so that a masters/PhD will be alot easier to get in thoes sorts of fields.

BTW I really liked that black water poster, I downloaded the pic and am going to see if I can print it off somewhat larger.


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## benbo (Feb 14, 2010)

> I have done well for my self in oil and gas


If this is true, why are half your posts on here complaining about your pay? And if you are planning to stay in that field what is the point of of this thread?



> beninge as anything else


What the heck is "beininge"? Do you mean "benign"? Because even then, I'm not sure it fits. I assure you, most DoD stuff is not intended for benign usage.

Did you mean "mundane"?

Finally, as someone who worked around 12 years for a defense contractor, a lot of what you wrote in here makes no sense to me. For example, nobody starts a project with "fundamental theoretical math." You think engineers in these types of industries start out by discussing continuity of a function over the set of real numbers or the fundamental theorem of the calculus? You start with a set of project requirements, then use math as a tool, just like everywhere else.

From my experience, the only pure math at defense companies is primarily done by mathematicians or maybe physicists, and a lot of it is statistical, or calculating the effects of weapons systems mathematically, possibly code breaking or writing computer code. Maybe some stuff related to antennas, or digital filtering/communications. They're not generally going to assign electrical engineers to do this stuff, just as they're not likely to assign a mathematician to design a phase locked loop, unless either one has a lot of experience in that field.


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## rppearso (Feb 15, 2010)

benbo said:


> > I have done well for my self in oil and gas
> 
> 
> If this is true, why are half your posts on here complaining about your pay? And if you are planning to stay in that field what is the point of of this thread?
> ...


Mundane is probably a better word. I am just thinking about possibilities, if the defense industry is really that cut throat to get into then like I said I may just pursue thoes interests as a transitional retirement or on the side, I am not happy with my compensation now but the potential for big money is much greater in oil and gas than in defense it sounds like since I was basicly mocked for suggesting a well into the 6 figure salary range for an experienced PE which tells me no one is getting 6 figures in defense unless your the super senior guy with 80 years experience so that might not be the industry for me then. Really interesting stuff but not very useful if you cant put gas in your plane or even buy a plane in the first place. Of course on the flip side of that if you work for peanuts its not possible to have to many bills so you can pick and choose when you work becasue even if they fire you its not like your out that much anyways, you can take classes at teh university during the middle of the day and who cares. Math and EE, very interesting stuff though and not very easy stuff, its amazing they can find a plethera of people to fill thoes rolls that they can pay someone a sub 6 figure income, I find it counter intuitive that so many people have EE's and math PhD's that they can treat you like mcdonalds workers, thats the law of supply and demand though I just would have thought the supply would have been much less.


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## benbo (Feb 15, 2010)

> Mundane is probably a better word. I am just thinking about possibilities, if the defense industry is really that cut throat to get into then like I said I may just pursue thoes interests as a transitional retirement or on the side, I am not happy with my compensation now but the potential for big money is much greater in oil and gas than in defense it sounds like since I was basicly mocked for suggesting a well into the 6 figure salary range for an experienced PE which tells me no one is getting 6 figures in defense unless your the super senior guy with 80 years experience so that might not be the industry for me then. Really interesting stuff but not very useful if you cant put gas in your plane or even buy a plane in the first place. Of course on the flip side of that if you work for peanuts its not possible to have to many bills so you can pick and choose when you work becasue even if they fire you its not like your out that much anyways, you can take classes at teh university during the middle of the day and who cares. Math and EE, very interesting stuff though and not very easy stuff, its amazing they can find a plethera of people to fill thoes rolls that they can pay someone a sub 6 figure income, I find it counter intuitive that so many people have EE's and math PhD's that they can treat you like mcdonalds workers, thats the law of supply and demand though I just would have thought the supply would have been much less.


I won't comment on everything you said here, because once again, a lot of it makes no sense to me.

But lot's of people in aerospace make over six figures. It depends on what your skill set is, and to a certain extent where you live. It may help to have a PhD or MS, but experience is far more important. Since lots of aerospace is in California, they make a little more because of the cost of living. And a PE basically means nothing in aerospace - almost nobody has one or even knows what it is. My old girlfriend worked at a place called Harris doing military communications. There was a group of engineers there (no, not all PhDs, people with all kinds of degrees). They were all making over 150K - they lost a big contracts and got laid off. Immediately, one went to Raytheon and basically brought the whole crew with them. They got jobs from 165 tp 180. And this was almost 10 years ago.

And my girlfriend was an assembler - with high level MIL-SPEC soldering skills. She was making around 75K without a college degree at all, probably 6 figures with overtime. And they brought her along too, at even a little higher salary.

It depends how good you are, but it also depends on how much work there is, just like in any industry. There were plenty of PhDs looking for work during the defenseindustry blood-letting of the late 80s and early 90s. No one can predict what will be the recession proof industry.


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## wilheldp_PE (Feb 15, 2010)

rppearso, all of your posts make it sound like you are trying to buy credibility. That may or may not be true, and I am sure you are going to argue the latter, but that is really how you come off. That is the reason that all of your posts are met with derision and sarcasm (well, that and the fact that your grammar is absolutely atrocious). Acquiring degrees, licenses, and certifications are not going to trick people into hiring you into 6-figure jobs, and even if it does, they will soon discover that you are under qualified and fire you immediately. You need to put in your time, build your experience base, and develop a reputation as a hard-working, smart individual. Then, and only then, will the opportunities for prestigious and high-paying jobs present themselves to you. I know that isn't what you want to hear, and I'm positive that you will not take that route in life, but it needed to be said.


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## Dexman PE (Feb 15, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> rppearso, all of your posts make it sound like you are trying to buy credibility. That may or may not be true, and I am sure you are going to argue the latter, but that is really how you come off. That is the reason that all of your posts are met with derision and sarcasm (well, that and the fact that your grammar is absolutely atrocious). Acquiring degrees, licenses, and certifications are not going to trick people into hiring you into 6-figure jobs, and even if it does, they will soon discover that you are under qualified and fire you immediately. You need to put in your time, build your experience base, and develop a reputation as a hard-working, smart individual. Then, and only then, will the opportunities for prestigious and high-paying jobs present themselves to you. I know that isn't what you want to hear, and I'm positive that you will not take that route in life, but it needed to be said.


Is there a certification that replaces all experience? I'm looking for one that requires no more than 1 week of class time and maybe a quick afternoon quiz. Maybe math, or even electrical. That should get me $100k, right?

[/sarcasm]

BTW, I agree 100% with wil's post.


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## MechGuy (Feb 15, 2010)

rppearso said:


> ...which tells me no one is getting 6 figures in defense unless your the super senior guy with 80 years experience...


Not true... I know many people making over $100K in the defense industry with less experience. Some have 70 years, some even 60 or 50. But definitely not 80.

Seriously, so much more goes into how much you can earn that years experience or numbers of degrees and certifications.



rppearso said:


> ...if you cant put gas in your plane or even buy a plane in the first place. Of course on the flip side of that if you work for peanuts its not possible to have to many bills so you can pick and choose when you work becasue even if they fire you its not like your out that much anyways, you can take classes at teh university during the middle of the day and who cares.


WTF???



rppearso said:


> ... its amazing they can find a plethera of people to fill thoes rolls that they can pay someone a sub 6 figure income, I find it counter intuitive that so many people have EE's and math PhD's that they can treat you like mcdonalds workers,


There's a large gap between "McDonald's workers" and someone who makes $100K or more. You can live very comfortably on 90, 80, 70, 60K and then some. It all depends on how you manage your finances. I know plenty of people who make $100K but live week to week because they don't know how to fit their lifestyle into their budget.

And as everyone else has told you, just because you have multiple degrees and licenses doesn't mean you should be making a six figure salary.

Why don't you focus on what you want to do in life to be happy, instead of worrying about how much money you make all the time?


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## rppearso (Feb 15, 2010)

MechGuy said:


> rppearso said:
> 
> 
> > ...which tells me no one is getting 6 figures in defense unless your the super senior guy with 80 years experience...
> ...


I totally agree, thats why im slowly going back for a EE/math degree because alot of thoes topics are of great interest to me as I described before. Its not so much about the money just for the sake of having money but because I want to buy an extra 300 and fly aerobatics and thoes planes are not cheap not to mention the hangar and all the fuel and maintence. I am actually plugging away at an advanced engineering math course right now (which also counts as my continuing education) and will likely take a partial differential equations class this fall. I became very interested in E&amp;M and electrical when I was about 2 classes away from finishing my chemical Eng degree and had to get my loans paid off before starting another degree, well my loans will be paid off this year so we will see what happens but I am building my reputation very well where I am so I will see if I can break the 6 figure mark this year in oil and gas. Never the less I want to get into EE type stuff some day and just wanted to see what people were making, the first round of posts I got made it sound like everybody was making peanuts but it sounds like thats not true now, I understand it takes 3-4 years to build up your reputation in a new industry and would probably start off at 80k as an experieced engineer but not in that industry, I dont know maybe you could do it in 2 years since its not my first rodeo just a different type of bull. I am going to talk to my prof to see how much math back ground I would need to understand edge diffraction theory for stealth technology that sounds pretty cool.


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