# Future PE Exams may be closed book!



## Dleg (Mar 11, 2010)

NCEES is discussing the option of making the PE exam closed-book. From NSPE:



> Closing the Book on the PE Exam?
> Future candidates for the Principles and Practice of Engineering Exam may have to rely on fewer resources during testing, as exam administrators explore implementing a closed-book testing policy.
> 
> Jerry Carter, executive director of the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying, says that concerns over exam security may lead the organization to change its policy.
> ...


I disagree with this. Yes, there may be security problems. But hey, that's what NCEES gets the big bucks to solve, right? Speaking for my branch of engineering, I feel that one of the most valuable outcomes of studying for and passing the PE exam is the emphasis it places on YOU building and learning your reference library. IMHO, this is extremely beneficial for both the individual engineer and the public at large.

I wonder if shifting to something more like the FE exam would create engineers who leave their textbooks inside their boxes after college, and keep nothing more than a print out of the NCEES PE reference booklet with them at work. I don't care how good the reference booklet is, it can't make up for the three shelves of references I use now at work, and used on the PE exam. I had many before the exam, but I bought several as a result of studying for the exam, which I now use routinely, and I think the process made a better engineer out of me.

Discuss. Maybe NCEES is listening - maybe your opinions matter. :dunno:


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## Dark Knight (Mar 11, 2010)

I do also disagree but what you and I think is irrelevant. NCEES will do as they want and that is the bottom line. It has been, it is and will always be like that. First the test format, then the calculators, then the format again. Now this. They are masters and commanders, the ultimate authority and the ultimate power. No one oversees what they do so they respond to no one. Their game, their rules.

Nothing else.


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## rppearso (Mar 11, 2010)

When I was in the PE this past oct the proctors watched us like hawks, they were not over bearing to make us nervous or anything but when they picked up the exams they made sure everything was there, from my experience it woudl be tough for someone to remove exam material. I guess you could copy stuff down in your references from the test but I barely had time to complete the exam let alone do something like that. You have to remember that the people sitting for this exam have to have a degree, EIT, 4 years varified work experience just to sit why would they mess around with trying to copy stuff down that would sacrafice time to actually answering the questions.


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## EM_PS (Mar 11, 2010)

i think this subject was broached earlier  ... http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=11584

(i was surprised at lack of activity on this topic truthfully)

Its laughable to believe the exams could realisitically be made closed book with some kind of discipline specific be-all / end-all reference manual being all you would need. I also agree that having a mini-library of texts &amp; references that youre intimately familiar with is a great side benefit once youre done.


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## Dleg (Mar 11, 2010)

^Sorry EM. I looked down below but not far enough to see that you had already posted on this.

Oh well. My post is better anyway.  :wtlw:


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## wilheldp_PE (Mar 11, 2010)

rppearso said:


> You have to remember that the people sitting for this exam have to have a degree, EIT, 4 years varified work experience just to sit why would they mess around with trying to copy stuff down that would sacrafice time to actually answering the questions.


Maybe they are looking for a fatty paycheck from selling active test materials.

In fact, test material was stolen by an examinee in Puerto Rico in OCT06. NCEES just won a $1 Million lawsuit against them to cover the costs of remaking the test to avoid re-using compromised questions.


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## Dleg (Mar 11, 2010)

^This is true. Plus, there are people who would take the exam purely to find out what questions are on it, for others to use in cheating later on. From what I remember, NCEES has found people with spy-type cameras and such attempting to record the exam.

But as I said before, that's NCEES's job. The vast majority of us (probably to the order of 99.9999%$) are legitimate engineers who value our licenses too much to even consider helping a competitor get theirs via cheating. If it gets to the point that exam takers are no longer allowed to use their references, then I am not sure we are headed in the right direction. "The terrorists have won" in other words.


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## Flyer_PE (Mar 11, 2010)

^To me, integrity is an integral part of being a PE. I agree with your 99.9999% figure but it's not so much avoiding helping the competition, it's that if I earned it honestly, I expect anybody else with a stamp to have done the same thing. The parallel for me is a pilot's license. Anybody with a pilot certificate has to have demonstrated their ability to a set performance standard. If they can't clear the bar, I don't want to be sharing the sky with them.


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## Dleg (Mar 11, 2010)

I agree with you. I should have said that was only one of many reasons a "real" PE wouldn't knowingly help someone cheat their way into a license.


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## Road Guy (Mar 12, 2010)

I hope they keep it open book, plus think of all the book publishers that would go out of business..


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## Capt Worley PE (Mar 12, 2010)

Man, I'd have hated taking that thing closed book. I don't think that's a good decison at all.


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## Dark Knight (Mar 12, 2010)

If the Gods at the Olympus make the test a closed book thing it is my guess they will have to modify it. The degree of difficulty will change and I would think it is going to be a plug and play test. They give you all the formulas you might need and you go from there, very similar to the EIT/FE/whatever is named now test.

If this format increases the number of repeaters I guess they will keep it. If people start to ace it and the number of repeat applications drops, will go back to the actual format. Personally I do not think it is a security issue but a number$$$$ i$$ue.


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## EM_PS (Mar 12, 2010)

is this level of security insecurity present with the bar exam? CPA exam? 'whatever profession' exam? just curious if this really is an ncees paranoia thing or if for some reason engineering has much more nefarious test takers or something


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## humner (Mar 12, 2010)

Sounds like they may be trying to make PE license a national one. Would be easier to control.


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## Mutha PE PS (Mar 12, 2010)

The only benefit I see from it becoming closed book and reference supplied is that it would make it easier to incorporate as o a computer based test which could be graded faster and allow candidates to take/retake sooner... But I don't think they are looking to necessarily make anything easier for the consumer.


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## Dark Knight (Mar 12, 2010)

humner said:


> Sounds like they may be trying to make PE license a national one. Would be easier to control.


It is already a National test. Maybe you meant something else.


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## EM_PS (Mar 12, 2010)

^ he meant _license_ being national (rather than state issued) i believe.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 12, 2010)

Maybe if it goes closed book without changing any of the exam questions, we can start demanding $200k fatty raises...


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## humner (Mar 12, 2010)

EM_PS said:


> ^ he meant _license_ being national (rather than state issued) i believe.


Exactly, there would be no such thing as a state license, however a level of license to practice at different level ie. structural, seismic.........


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## Dexman PE (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm not opposed to a base-level national license to practice engineering (it's basically what it is now anyways). I understand several states may still prefer additional licensure above and beyond the base (Cali w/ seismic, other states with structural, etc), but they would only need to manage the additional licenses.


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## Santiagj (Mar 12, 2010)

By "fatty raises" do you mean a large some of money or a check that is drenched in grease to the point its translucent?


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## Dexman PE (Mar 12, 2010)

Deep fried...


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## humner (Mar 12, 2010)

no saturated fats please, I am on a failing diet.


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## Dexman PE (Mar 12, 2010)

what about trans fats (assuming you're not in NY)?

I'll just use Peanut oil, to help those with allergies too.


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## humner (Mar 12, 2010)

Dexman PE said:


> what about trans fats (assuming you're not in NY)?
> I'll just use Peanut oil, to help those with allergies too.


I am in NY, but not in Bloomberg City. If I knew better, I would swear you would use Coco butter, LOL


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## bigray76 (Mar 12, 2010)

I was one of those people with a handtruck fill of books... I took Transpo PM - after you put the MUTCD, Green Book, Roadside Design Guide, Traffic Engineering Handbook, etc. (only the Transpo recommended references) you have already filled up one crate. I had a second crate of other discipline books (geotech, water resource, etc.) and a small third crate with the CERM, my discipline specific binders, and my conversion handbook...

I can't imagine how they would try to consolidate all of the transpo references to a small NCEES guide book.


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## humner (Mar 12, 2010)

bigray76 said:


> I was one of those people with a handtruck fill of books... I took Transpo PM - after you put the MUTCD, Green Book, Roadside Design Guide, Traffic Engineering Handbook, etc. (only the Transpo recommended references) you have already filled up one crate. I had a second crate of other discipline books (geotech, water resource, etc.) and a small third crate with the CERM, my discipline specific binders, and my conversion handbook...
> I can't imagine how they would try to consolidate all of the transpo references to a small NCEES guide book.


What Big Ray said.


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## kevo_55 (Mar 12, 2010)

LOL!

This whole idea with making the PE exam closed book will most likely happen when the BS+30 requirement comes into play.

Until then, sit back &amp; relax.


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## EM_PS (Mar 12, 2010)

so a little digging on bar examinations:



> National Conference of Bar Examiners (NCBE) is currently in the process of developing a Uniform Bar Examination (UBE), which will consist solely of the multistate bar examination (MBE), multistate essay examination (MEE), and multistate performance test (MPT), and will offer portability of scores across state lines. As of October 2009, at least 10 jurisdictions, all of which were among the 22 that already were using all three components of the UBE, were expected to adopt that examination, with the first tests likely to be administered in 2011. However, many of the largest legal markets—New York, California, the District of Columbia, Florida, Illinois, and Texas—have so far chosen not to consider a change to the UBE in the near future. Among the concerns cited with the adoption of the UBE were its absence of questions on state law and the fact that it would give the NCBE much greater power in the bar credentialing process


I think maybe state professional boards have gone too far in with ncees, giving them way too much power in engineer / surveyor licensure - i'm not sure a national licensure would be a good thing, just that its likely inevitable at this point (with engineering anyways)


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## Dark Knight (Mar 12, 2010)

EM_PS said:


> ^ he meant _license_ being national (rather than state issued) i believe.






humner said:


> EM_PS said:
> 
> 
> > ^ he meant _license_ being national (rather than state issued) i believe.
> ...


Thanks to you both!!!!


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## Mike in Gastonia (Mar 12, 2010)

humner said:


> Sounds like they may be trying to make PE license a national one. Would be easier to control.


I'm confused. How would going to a closed-book exam lead to a national license?


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## rppearso (Mar 12, 2010)

Santiagj said:


> By "fatty raises" do you mean a large some of money or a check that is drenched in grease to the point its translucent?


You could use avacado oil but I cant afford that until I switch contractors lol. Supposidly avacado oil is good for high heat for deep frying but sounds like it would be better for you, although im not completely sure if its healthy but it sounds expensive.


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## JoeysVee (Mar 13, 2010)

If they make it closed book they will have to make it less difficult and further from what a true engineer needs. We dont need to memorize stuff....just know where to get the stuff. I think this would be a bad idea.


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## sac_engineer (Mar 17, 2010)

Here's my 2 cents:

If the passing rate was high (60%+), then I can understand an effort by the NCEES to refine what is allowable to bring into the exam. However, since the passing rate is pretty low (60% first time takers, 28% repeat takers), then I don't see how a closed-book exam would make any difference in the results. And I agree with the above posts that it would be a challenge for the NCEES to include all of the necessary reference material for all disciplines in the same book.

As for the security aspect of maintaining the secrecy of the exam questions, the chances of someone copying the questions is the same likelihood that someone with a photographic memory will blog the questions after the exam for everyone to see. This isn't an exam where anyone off the street can just take it and pass. It requires some scrutiny during the application stage and lots of preparation to study for and pass the exam.

Keep it the way it is. The results have not revealed any breach of security or questionable activity by the exam takers. Otherwise, we would be seeing more PEs in the market.


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## jeb6294 (Mar 18, 2010)

I suppose someone could go through the hassle and expense of getting signed up to take the exam and then use their test time trying to come up with a way of smuggling the questions out in order to sell some sort of 'top secret study guide', but....

1) It seems like the NCEES Sample Exam was a pretty close match to the type of questions you see on the exam anyway so I don't think there'd be any need for it

2) I'm sure it's safe to assume that NCEES isn't in the habit of recycling their exam questions.


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## NEED2009 (Mar 20, 2010)

I don't know if anyone said this or not where if it is closed book, they can not test you too much materials that is not cover by a manual.

And the manual will be from NCEES like EIT exam book manual with all the formulas. It is money driven.


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