# Boss asking you to engineer something that doesn't work...



## McEngr (Dec 3, 2010)

To anyone with an opinion or experience with this: how have you handled engineering something that you are putting your stamp on that your boss has asked you to do and you don't agree with the philosophy. How have you handled it? Did you ever fear risking your job?


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 3, 2010)

I would never stamp a design that I knew to be faulty. Period.


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## McEngr (Dec 3, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> I would never stamp a design that I knew to be faulty. Period.


It's not black and white. The issue is putting a post and pier foundation on an existing slab that we know nothing about. All we know is it's between 4&amp;6 inches thick. I have issues with the frost heave as it is going to Washington state. He wants me to put a shearwall/ponywall on the bldg perimeter and use expansion anchors in lieu of j-bolt anchor bolts to the foundation. The bldg is going to Auburn, WA - 30psf ground snow and likely to have some frost heave at some point.

The issue is that my boss uses intimidation to convince me he's right. I suppose I just need to get some stones... ... and tell him I'm not stamping it.


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 3, 2010)

That might as well have been Greek to me (I'm a sparky), but it is black and white....if you don't think it's right, don't stamp it. It's your reputation and livelihood on the line. Pissing off your boss may cost you your job, but losing your license for stamping incorrect plans will ruin your career and possibly get you sued.


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## McEngr (Dec 3, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> That might as well have been Greek to me (I'm a sparky), but it is black and white....if you don't think it's right, don't stamp it. It's your reputation and livelihood on the line. Pissing off your boss may cost you your job, but losing your license for stamping incorrect plans will ruin your career and possibly get you sued.


wil, you are right. I will have to speak with him about him stamping it on Monday.

Thanks.


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## wilheldp_PE (Dec 3, 2010)

I know that what I'm saying is far more difficult in execution than it is for me to say it. Good luck with your situation.


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## navyasw02 (Dec 3, 2010)

McEngr said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > I would never stamp a design that I knew to be faulty. Period.
> ...


Heres the key point. If your boss is so right, why doesn't he stamp it? If he's not a PE then he's got nothing to lose by having you stamp it and will probably throw you under the bus when it fails.


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## STEEL MAN (Dec 3, 2010)

reminds of somebody today, a PEng from BC lost a project his good break from my boss, because he changes a lot stuff in the design which turned out to be very costly. The struicture is safe design,I proved it to him that the design is safe, he doesnt even know the difference between KN and MPa, and cant model a structure right in a structural software. I sometimes wonder some PEng and PE doesnt deserve the license at all.


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## MA_PE (Dec 3, 2010)

Can't you put some sort of note on the drawing saying that the thickness of the slab needs to be verified at xx inches for proper embedment of the anchors or for proper protection against frost heave?

That way you're stamping a design that has a caveat of proving your design assumption in the field and you don't necessarily have to "cross" your boss.


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## Supe (Dec 4, 2010)

Tell him no, tell him why, and if he tries to bully you into using your stamp, there are whistleblower laws to protect you.


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## kevo_55 (Dec 4, 2010)

MA_PE said:


> Can't you put some sort of note on the drawing saying that the thickness of the slab needs to be verified at xx inches for proper embedment of the anchors or for proper protection against frost heave?
> That way you're stamping a design that has a caveat of proving your design assumption in the field and you don't necessarily have to "cross" your boss.


We do this sort of thing weekly at my work.

Just state your assumptions and clearly define your engineering scope. Also state what should be verified by others.

Simple as that and no big head boss needs to fire anyone.


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## McEngr (Dec 6, 2010)

kevo_55 said:


> MA_PE said:
> 
> 
> > Can't you put some sort of note on the drawing saying that the thickness of the slab needs to be verified at xx inches for proper embedment of the anchors or for proper protection against frost heave?
> ...


hey kevo,

In minnesota, I would suspect frost heave being more of an issue. Are slabs used as a structural mat provided with a thickened edge? Because the building is on a thickened edge, I'm thinking of burying the slab on the perimeter and providing all P.T. (marked for ground contact) lumber for a shearwall/ponywall skirt.


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## kevo_55 (Dec 6, 2010)

McEngr,

They can, but at my work (for smaller buildings) they typically just put in #5 bars near the edges and whatever makes sense in the middle.

I honestly don't know too much about it since I don't do too many foundation designs up here. My most recient foundation was in CA, and I had a jr. engineer do the work.


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## McEngr (Dec 16, 2010)

kevo_55 said:


> McEngr,
> They can, but at my work (for smaller buildings) they typically just put in #5 bars near the edges and whatever makes sense in the middle.
> 
> I honestly don't know too much about it since I don't do too many foundation designs up here. My most recient foundation was in CA, and I had a jr. engineer do the work.


Well, all slabs need C&amp;T reinforcement if it's being used for structure (as a minimum). I did stamp it with a lot of disclaimers in my construction notes. My boss thought it was excessive, but he relented. I think because my boss is the owner's son he is automatically "in" and has to do things that he doesn't necessarily agree with... in other words, he convinces himself that good engineering is often too expensive.


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## ALBin517 (Dec 16, 2010)

I cannot relate. I am over three years of licensure now, without stamping any work. (knock on wood)


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## MA_PE (Dec 16, 2010)

McEngr said:


> kevo_55 said:
> 
> 
> > McEngr,
> ...


What do you mean by "C&amp;T". Minimum steel for a slab on grade woould be temperature and shrinkage.


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## McEngr (Dec 16, 2010)

Sorry MA_PE, S&amp;T is what I meant. LOL!


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