# NCEES Credential Evaluation Issues: Foreign Grad



## aka251

Hi All,

NEED YOUR ADVISE.

My graduate degree is in Architecture from Indian Institute of Technology and intend to apply for EIT exam (other disciplines). Few weeks back I send all the credential evaluation information to NCEES (transcripts, course description etc) of my Architecture program. The evaluation report came up with certain deficiencies such as NO BASIC MATH OR SCIENCE COURSES such as Calculus I and II, Physics etc.

Basic maths and science are not taught at Grad level in India. We are taught those course in 11th and 12th grade (senior secondary education). Only applied physics/maths (like HVAC, electricty, soil mechanics, surveying, numerical methods, operations research etc.) are taught at Grad level.

To my dismay, my credential evaluator is not ready to consider my high school credentials. I need to explain to him that basic sciences are not taught in grad school.

Has anyone experienced a similar situation?? If so, how did you explain your evaluator? PLEASE ADVISE.

I am eager to give my EIT exam and love the subjects. If anyone can help me in anyway possible, please do!!!!


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## STEEL MAN

aka251 said:


> Hi All,
> 
> NEED YOUR ADVISE.
> 
> My graduate degree is in Architecture from Indian Institute of Technology and intend to apply for EIT exam (other disciplines). Few weeks back I send all the credential evaluation information to NCEES (transcripts, course description etc) of my Architecture program. The evaluation report came up with certain deficiencies such as NO BASIC MATH OR SCIENCE COURSES such as Calculus I and II, Physics etc.
> 
> Basic maths and science are not taught at Grad level in India. We are taught those course in 11th and 12th grade (senior secondary education). Only applied physics/maths (like HVAC, electricty, soil mechanics, surveying, numerical methods, operations research etc.) are taught at Grad level.
> 
> To my dismay, my credential evaluator is not ready to consider my high school credentials. I need to explain to him that basic sciences are not taught in grad school.
> 
> Has anyone experienced a similar situation?? If so, how did you explain your evaluator? PLEASE ADVISE.
> 
> I am eager to give my EIT exam and love the subjects. If anyone can help me in anyway possible, please do!!!!



aka,

What are you talking here, when you say "Graduate", that is Masters Degree level, when you say grade 11 and 12 those are in Senior High, clarify these things, General Engineering in FE Exam is supposed to be taken in Bachelors level and not in High School


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## aka251

Thanks for asking. I guess its a matter of semantics. "Graduate" in India means bachelors level.

I completed basic sciences (maths, physics, chemistry) in grade 11 and 12 of high school. After that, I completed bachelors in architecture (which is a five year course) and masters in finance (two year course).

I'd like to give FE exam here.


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## snickerd3

many people take calculus and physics in high school then they have to take them again at an undergraduate level in order to get their BS. They will not look at the high school level courses unless they were college classes.


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## snickerd3

and there is more than basics needed for BS here. for example Calc I, II, differential equations, linear algebra...all required


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## aka251

What do you mean by college classes?

In India, I don't have an option to take Physics, Chemistry or Maths courses again at bachelors level. All the courses taught at bachelors have basics sciences (physics, calculus etc.) as pre-requisite.


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## who knows

Begining with the new NCEES Engineering Curriculum Standard (Somehwere Early 2011 I believe), students from the British-based and European High School systems like A-levels, IB and German Arbitur etc get credit for some of the High school Basic Science standardized examinations taken right after High school as part of the respective countries' HS graduation/College entrance requirements. There is a video at the NCEES evaluation webpage by Marie Nebesky that confirms this.

However, don't expect your evaluator to just give you credit for those badly needed courses (PHY &amp; CHEM I/II, CALCULUS I/II etc). You need to provide them with all the exams results (and certificates) directly from the issuing country/international Exams board (Cambridge, IB, WAEC, etc). NCEES will verify them directly with the issuing Exams board, compare the readily available syllabuses for these courses and give you credit accordignly just like the US Advanced Placement Exams. Nonetheless, some countries do not have this rigorous standardized extra exam taken after High School although the educational curriculum maybe lifted directly from the British educational model.

A typical example is the A-levels exams where there is a rigorous theory part and as well as a rigorous hands-on practical part for the CHEM, PHY, BIO classes etc. These exams also mirror the content of the first year US college level counterparts and in most cases even go further than your typical AP exams. Thus most colleges fashioned after the British and European systems do not offer these courses again as part of the college undergrad education. Everybody takes it at the HS school level and it's standardized. It does not show up on your college transcripts because it's a pre-requisite for HS graduation and college entrance. Moreover, you pretty much select your college major right in your HS days (Science, Arts, Business, Fine Arts etc).

Therefore, just to be fair to international graduates from educational systems where most of the first year US college basic science and math classes are rather part of the HS level (where student take standardized rigorous international/national at the end of the 12 year and sometimes 13 year HS education) NCEES will give you credit so far as you furnish them the legitimate and easily verifiable information.

I can vouch for this because I have had an evaluation done recently by NCEES and I got credit for my Advanced Level exams taken after my last term/semester in HS eduaction and I did not go to HS in the US.

That's my 2 cents.


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## snickerd3

Instead of offering a more difficult high school level course they will let high school students (11th and 12th) take classes at a local college. But is it clearly set up as a college level class.


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## aka251

*snickerd3*

Yes they are taught in grade 11 and 12 of High School. Courses include: Calculus 1, 2, 3, Linear algebra, Probability, Quantum physics, Statics, Inorganic, Organic, Physical chemistry, Complex numbers, differential equations, trigonometry, electricity, magnetism etc.


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## aka251

Snickerd3

After HS education, we give a national level exam. After passing that, we get 'Senior Secondary Certificate' which is certified by the central board of secondary education of India.


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## snickerd3

take a look into what who knows posted. IF they don't accept that, I don't see any other recourse for you other than to take the classes at a college here.


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## gte636i

If you're an architect shouldn't you be looking at the ARE exam instead? Seems like you should be going for an RA title instead of a PE, just thinking your credentials might be more accepted under their program, but I don't know. Just speculating.


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## aka251

I have worked in the building energy and performance monitoring field for quite some time. My work involves integrating various building systems, generating and analyzing performance metrics, suggesting conservation measures or retrofits etc. Given my professional background and career interests, I believe EIT is more apt.


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## STEEL MAN

Your Degree is Architecture, theoretically, you dont qualify for FE, because Engineering has so many courses in Mathematics, while Architexture doesnt go through in depth Math like Diffrential Equations, Advance Math, Prob Stats etc, I think you dont have Chemistry, Elect and Mag, Eng Economics etc. If Im going to evaluate your case, go back to Engineering school and youll see the difference, even in the Civil Engineering PM, you cant handle in depth Theory of structures, Geotechnical Engineering, Transportation Engineering etc. Im sorry to say this.


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## STEEL MAN

I agree with gte


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## STEEL MAN

aka,

you know, why, because I have both Architecture and Civil Engineering degrees background plus Masters in Engineering degree. I know its tough to accept it but, you cant just jump around to Engineering from Architecture.


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## aka251

I understand your reasoning. However, Its not like the architectural programs in US.

To clarify, we study subjects like structural theory, structural design, refrigeration, hydraulics, geomatics, soil mechanics, electrical design, advanced maths (like operations research, mathematical modelling) etc.

Also, I have checked with state-EIT and they are okay with Architectural background. In fact, I would encourage Architectural students to apply.

Its important to note that in India: Irrespective of whether we study Architecture or Civil Engineering, we are NOT taught basic maths/sciences. We are taught those subjects in High School. Please understand this.


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## snickerd3

We understand what you are saying and we are saying we get those classes essentially twice...once in high school and again in college. You need to consider thinking about it from a different perspective...instead of repeating i took those in high school... start demonstrating to the reviewer that the courses you took were in fact equivalent to what the requirements are. which will require a lot of work to accomplish i;d wager.


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## aka251

Thanks for your suggestion "snickerd3" and "who knows"

I am sure there would be other members in the forum who have/had faced situation similar to mine. How did you get through? I would like to hear that.

The reason being; my evaluator seems completely averse to accepting HS level certifications. I can take this issue to high ups but before that I would like to know; how did you handle this?

I am pretty sure US system would have regulatory provisions to handle this.


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## Kram

I have a similar experience but it is regarding transferring my education credits from a university in the Philippines to a university here in the United States. I was one year away from graduating and getting my BS in Civil Engineering in the Philippines when we moved here to the United States. When I decided to enroll in Civil Engineering, I had my subjects evaluated and I was only able to save maybe one semester; I had to enroll in at least 18 credit hours every semester to be able to finish in three years. 



The university did not consider my classes because even though the classes have the same name and description, the topics covered are different. I was only required to take two calculus classes in the Philippines but each class have 4 credit hours; here, I had to take four calculus classes; same with Chemistry, Physics, and other subjects in which I have to repeat them. 



From experience and what people have told me, Architects and Civil Engineering are two different things thats why they don't get along that much. Architectural Engineering would be in between.



You may have taken Calculus, Physics, and other subjects in high school but those are general subjects and not geared towards engineering. You mentioned that you went to Indian Institute of Technology and I checked the website for Delhi and following is part of the curriculum, which includes Math subjects:



*[email protected] Engineering *

*UNDERGRADUATE CORE(UC)*

*Course No.*
​


*Title*
​


*L*
​


*T*
​


*P*
​


*Credits*
​



​


*Basic Sciences (BS) Core*
​



​



​





CYL110​
Physical Chemistry: Concepts and Applications

3
​


1
​


0
​


4
​



CYP100​
Chemistry Laboratory

0
​


0
​


4
​


2
​



MAL110​
Mathematics - I

3
​


1
​


0
​


4
​



MAL120​
Mathematics - II

3
​


1
​


0
​


4
​



PHL110​
Fields and Waves

3
​


1
​


0
​


4
​



PHP100​
Physics Laboratory

0
​


0
​


4
​


2
​



​
TOTAL BS Core

12
​


4
​


8
​


20 
​


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## who knows

Aka,

I think you are up against something that is more complicated than you actually think:

1. The evaluators at NCEES will not give you credit for something just because you have been through the curriculum. There has to be official exams results present before credit can be granted just like their requirement for transcripts submission even at the "college-setting" courses as part of the evaluation. They evaluate collective courses content per ABET standards, not degree or educational system. That is why even in the US some degrees do not meet the ABET criteria. Imagine a US high school student saying "well I did study for an AP exam and even took a prep course in HS but although I did not end up writing the exams, I have to be given college level credit for PHY I/II because I did go through the curriculum". You have to take the standardized exam.

2. It has to be demostrated by competency i.e. a certain minimum grade letter depending on the metric of comparison. Even with the AP, A-Level, IB, German Arbitur exams etc, you need to score a certain minimum grade before it becomes relevant. Aside from NCEES, even with colleges here in the US who give college-level credit for these standardized exams, you need a certain minimum score.

3. A national standardized exam at the HS level may not neccessarily be an "internationally benchmarked" exam. Globally, exams like A-Levels, IB, AP have been the benchmark for most college-level credit granting institutions. Therefore, the national HS terminal exam in India although may have the right and equivalent ingredients compared to these international exams, the fact that there is no precendence of it being actually officially benchmarked against these other well known exams makes it tough for most credential evaluators to have something to work with when it comes to issues like these. Questions like these come to mind:

(a) How does the content compare to A-levels, IB exams, AP exams etc?

(B) Did the HS educational system transform from a "old British" 13 yr duration (O-levels plus A-levels for instance) to the modern 12-yr duration while maintaining the core syllabi content (that is 100% O-levels plus maybe minimum 70% A-levels) or is it just a totally different content structure (like only 100% O-levels or 100% O-levels and 10% A-levels)? It helps a lot if the issuing board has their exam syllabi benchmarked against the British or IB exams.

© Is it offered on a multinational platform (with an internationally accredited coalition like *W*est*A*frican*E*xams*C*ouncil, *E*ast*A*frican*E*xams*C*ouncil, US College Board, IB, Cambridge International etc) or on just a national platform?

These are issues that will take a lot of effort on the part of the foreign Exams bodies to pursue on their own with their graduates feeling the trickling down effect. You trying to argue with the evaluator will not sway him/her unless there is a verifiable paper trail somewhere he/she can work with. Moreover, most of these foreign HS Exams boards, and even colleges, are oblivious to some of these problems their graduates face in the US Professional Licensing arena because, traditionally, foreign graduates have never had a problem with going to college in the US with their foreign HS credentials. Shoot! Most foreigners coming right out of HS will drool at the thought of being given admission to a US college and would not even bring up this whole "I did this already in HS" stuff; because guess what, you haven't lost much time so far in your education as you are being given the chance to pursue a degree with your US conterparts on the same footing.

However, it becomes a big deal when after spending 12 to 13 years in HS plus 4 years in college, all outside the US, and you then finally find yourself in the US competing with an American graduate.

Maybe you need to make a call to the Indian HS Exams board and see what strings you can pull but I doubt if that will help if there is not that precedence already somewhere in the international credential evaluation arena for India.

Hope this helps.


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## aka251

I studied at Indian Institute of Technology - Roorkee

This is the course structure: http://www.iitr.ac.in/academics/uploads/File/2009/course%20structure%20/Arch_%20&amp;%20Planning.pdf


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## STEEL MAN

aka,

this is not enough there should be a detailed course outline, under each courses you took, there should be topics covered, as what i have said i know architecture i studied this, the outline im talking should match exactly the NCEES FE topics covered for the exams if not then youre gonna have to go to school again or depends on the evaluators decision. good luck.


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## STEEL MAN

The reason Im saying that the Course Outline should be shown, coz, the applications in Engineering is different, example you have a subject here " Economics", in " Engineering Economics" comparing the two, the applications are different, Enginering Economics deals Machines, Buildings etc. which relates to Civil and MEchanical etc. while plain Economics, might be Business Economics or any application and non Engineering. I hope you would understand this. The same with Math, "Engineering Mathematics" is different, applications could be in Mechanical Springs etc. or Electronic Circuits etc. etc.

Structural theory, in Architecture it only covers the basic static analysis and determinate structures, while in Civil/structural Engineering its complex, it is in depth from indeterminate sstructures, to dynamic structural analysis etc. etc.


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## aka251

This link gives you an overview only http://www.iitr.ac.i...%20Planning.pdf 

This link will give you a better idea of the course outline http://www.iitr.ac.in/academics/pages/Course_Syllabi.html. You will have to go to each department for course details.

If subject code reads MA then the course is taught by Mathematics department, if it is EE then by Electronics department, EC by Electronics and Communication department, BT by Biotecchnology, MI by Mechanical and Industrial, CE by Civil Engg department, AR by Architecture department and so forth. These courses are common to all engineering students and taught and tested alongwith engineering students. In other words, if you score an "A" in MA, CE, EE etc. courses then the sample space includes both Engg. and Arch. students.

In many respects Architecture is tough at IIT as it incorporates both basic engineering and pure design courses. The thought process being, an Architect should be able to intrinsically understand all building systems and integrate them in a cohesive manner.

BTW, I am drafting a case for my evaluator. Hopefully, my HS board of education is accredited somewhere! Wish me luck.


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## aka251

From the course descriptions, you can see that we aren't taught calculus, organic chemistry etc. Now, the HARD part is to show the book to the evaluator.

Also, worth noting is that to get into my college we give Joint Entrance Exam (in my time it was REE). The link has the syllabus (from page 14 onwards) http://jee.iitm.ac.in/images/ib2012.pdf. As you would see, you need to be good at basic sciences to give this entrance exam. Again this argument won't hold water with the evaluator.


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## newbie_2012

Aka251,

Cannot you go to another state for taking your FE who does not ask for accreditation?

OR

Cannot you get your credentials get evaluated other than NCEES (like ACCRAO)?


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## aka251

newbie_2012

ACCRAO is not listed as evaluators by NJ DCA. Does ACCRAO have reasonable evaluation criteria?

Can you suggest another state where ACCRAO is accepted?


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## newbie_2012

I know Connecticut does not ask for evaluation of credentials for taking FE test.


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## aka251

The state website states; "Please note that those applying for the Fundamentals of Engineering Exam who hold a foreign undergraduate degree

and a US graduate degree in engineering may apply under Class 9 without an evaluation."

I don't fit the bill. Perhaps, exploring ACCRAO will be my plan B if NCEES is adamant. Don't think my employer will pay for it though.

Thanks.


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## newbie_2012

I had a same situation like yours. It was difficult to work with NJ DCP. I have my under-graduate degree from India and masters from Canada. Worked for me by registering for FE at Connecticut board.

I know CT board accepts evaluation from ACCRAO for PE tests.

Good Luck!


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## STEEL MAN

aka251 said:


> This link gives you an overview only http://www.iitr.ac.i...%20Planning.pdf
> 
> This link will give you a better idea of the course outline http://www.iitr.ac.i...se_Syllabi.html. You will have to go to each department for course details.
> 
> If subject code reads MA then the course is taught by Mathematics department, if it is EE then by Electronics department, EC by Electronics and Communication department, BT by Biotecchnology, MI by Mechanical and Industrial, CE by Civil Engg department, AR by Architecture department and so forth. These courses are common to all engineering students and taught and tested alongwith engineering students. In other words, if you score an "A" in MA, CE, EE etc. courses then the sample space includes both Engg. and Arch. students.
> 
> In many respects Architecture is tough at IIT as it incorporates both basic engineering and pure design courses. The thought process being, an Architect should be able to intrinsically understand all building systems and integrate them in a cohesive manner.
> 
> BTW, I am drafting a case for my evaluator. Hopefully, my HS board of education is accredited somewhere! Wish me luck.


Aka,

I did check you course outline, and sad to say unfortunately, youre courses arent complete based on NCEES outline again I have to cite an example, your Structural Theory 1 and 2 is only up to three moment eqn (simple cases) in PE exams, it involves more than this, indeterminate frame analysis etc. another example your Electrical Course is way off, in FE Electrical, it involves Electrical Engineers circuits like Ohms Law, Kirchoffs law, Y DElta etc even Laplace Transforms, in this case youre not ready for this. My suggestion go to www.ncees.org and check your deficiencies. I hope youll understand better this time.


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## STEEL MAN

http://www.ncees.org/Exams/FE_exam.php

Download this in pdf format and evaluate your courses and youll see the difference.


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## STEEL MAN

aka,

it doesnt matter if your professors are from respective departments on each course discipline, the courses itself show the content and based on NCEES outline, it doesnt fully match. Good luck and see what you can do.


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## who knows

aka,

This is something I also found at the IL board website to corroborate my earlier comments about NCEES granting credit for High school transcripts in Math and Sciences for former British empire nations. See page 6.

Hope it helps.

PEMinutesJune232011.pdf


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