# MN NCEES record references



## guld0017 (Jan 6, 2010)

Not sure if this is copacetic behavior for EB but I am hoping to track down a few Minnesota references for the NCEES records program. After reading some other topics it sounds like there are some other people in my shoes that aren't working with PE's on a regular basis and may be the only one in their company.

Thanks!


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## guld0017 (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe this topic should be removed...


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## YaGoof (Jan 11, 2010)

guld0017 said:


> Not sure if this is copacetic behavior for EB but I am hoping to track down a few Minnesota references for the NCEES records program. After reading some other topics it sounds like there are some other people in my shoes that aren't working with PE's on a regular basis and may be the only one in their company.
> Thanks!


Do your references have to be in MN? If you are using the NCEES record program it doesn't look like it.


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## IlPadrino (Jan 11, 2010)

guld0017 said:


> Maybe this topic should be removed...


Why?


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## guld0017 (Jan 13, 2010)

It wasn't looking like there was any interest in the topic.

I think YaGoof might have a point that it doesn't need to be a reference from your home state for the NCEES records site or even in the same discipline.

Maybe I should recant the initial question I proposed of needing a PE reference in MN. What I am really looking for are a few individuals that are looking to start up their records program and need a reference for this purpose just as much as I do. This would allow some cross engineering ties to be made while achieving the 5 references to establish a complete NCEES records file. Any help would be appreciated and offered in return.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jan 13, 2010)

When I got my Record, I had two references from my home state (KY), two from Indiana, and one from Ohio.


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## YaGoof (Jan 14, 2010)

guld0017 said:


> It wasn't looking like there was any interest in the topic.
> I think YaGoof might have a point that it doesn't need to be a reference from your home state for the NCEES records site or even in the same discipline.
> 
> Maybe I should recant the initial question I proposed of needing a PE reference in MN. What I am really looking for are a few individuals that are looking to start up their records program and need a reference for this purpose just as much as I do. This would allow some cross engineering ties to be made while achieving the 5 references to establish a complete NCEES records file. Any help would be appreciated and offered in return.


I called NCEES yesterday. They said that the only requirement is that the character reference have a license and not be related to you. There is no requirement on state, although it is reasonable to assume that it is easier to find PEs in your own state that half a world away....


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jan 16, 2010)

So if I understand what you guys are saying, you want PEs that you only know through the internet to be your character references for your ncees record. If this isn't illegal, it should be. And IMO it's certainly unethical.....

How about joining your state chapter of NSPE? Lots of opportunities to volunteer and network there. Don't just look for an easy way out......


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## YaGoof (Jan 16, 2010)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> So if I understand what you guys are saying, you want PEs that you only know through the internet to be your character references for your ncees record. If this isn't illegal, it should be. And IMO it's certainly unethical.....
> How about joining your state chapter of NSPE? Lots of opportunities to volunteer and network there. Don't just look for an easy way out......



I apologize if you are offended...

I'm certainly not suggesting that potential references base their decisions "only through the internet". I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with it. Imagine making a hiring decision solely on a resume....

However, honesty is the best policy and by clearly stating a need initiates the process...the worse anyone can tell you is no.

I trust and assume that we are all responsible individuals (especially if we have a PE) and can ask the approriate questions and use reasonable judgement to determine the suitability of a potential candidate for support.

Perhaps it would be wise to discuss for making assertions....Networking in this age is advisable through any medium

How do you that people are not trying alternatives and this is one of them?

Incidentally, I am a member of AIAA, SAE, ASME and I do volunteer...


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## wilheldp_PE (Jan 16, 2010)

YaGoof said:


> Incidentally, I am a member of AIAA, SAE, ASME and I do volunteer...


I'll stay out of the whole getting references off of the internet debate. I personally wouldn't do it, but if you and the other PE feel comfortable with it, go ahead.

But MiG suggested you join NSPE which is the National Society of Professional Engineers, meaning that all members are PEs. It would be an excellent source of references for a PE Record. The organizations that you mentioned, while excellent industry groups, are not good sources for PE references.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jan 17, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> YaGoof said:
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, I am a member of AIAA, SAE, ASME and I do volunteer...
> ...


There may even be a level of membership where you don't have to have a PE. Which would be ideal for people trying to get their PE, especially in areas where there are not many in their discipline or industry.


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## IlPadrino (Jan 18, 2010)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> So if I understand what you guys are saying, you want PEs that you only know through the internet to be your character references for your ncees record. If this isn't illegal, it should be. And IMO it's certainly unethical.....


According to NCEES:



> These five references should be selected to reflect the character and diversity of your experience and must be personally acquainted with your professional reputation. References cannot be your relatives by blood or marriage.


I think the biggest problem with this particular thread is the _quid pro quo_ nature. Other than that, it seems reasonable to me I could build a relationship here with some people that allows them to be acquainted with my professional reputation.


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## Mike in Gastonia (Jan 18, 2010)

IlPadrino said:


> Mike in Gastonia said:
> 
> 
> > So if I understand what you guys are saying, you want PEs that you only know through the internet to be your character references for your ncees record. If this isn't illegal, it should be. And IMO it's certainly unethical.....
> ...


I think it's as you say - the quid pro quo is the biggest thing I have a problem with. And people trying to work around the system. I suppose it's possible to do internet research on someone to become familiar with their reputation, but it wouldn't be "first-hand". And with the anonymous nature of the internet, you don't even know real names, only handles.


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## YaGoof (Jan 18, 2010)

Mike in Gastonia said:


> IlPadrino said:
> 
> 
> > Mike in Gastonia said:
> ...


Firstly, to the suggestion that this is quid pro quo. “Quid pro quo” suggests that without satisfactory verification that I would endorse someone else. I find that offensive.

I would NEVER engage in quid pro quo. If after an extended discussion via phone, exchange of work materials and face to face meeting it turned out that the person was incompetent, I would be a pretty damn lousy engineer to recommend them. It would be an insult to the profession and the ethical code that we are bound by.

There is no way to refer someone from this board unless you find out who they "really are"....you have to put their name down on application...

If you have conducted a review of a peer-reviewed journal, experts can evaluate the quality of someone else's work using basic analytical skills.....

And to suggest that quid pro quo wouldn't happen in any organization and only on the internet is simply silly.

While I appreciate the recommendation to join NSPE, I forgot to mention, that I joined NSPE over a year ago ($220 later). If you examine the "networking schedule" for this year, the one event is about "Professional Liability".....sounds like a great place to hit up people with a begging cup, doesn't?

Oh did I mention that NSPE has online boards......

"Networking Opportunities

Through Interest Groups, online forums, and live events, members can reach engineers across the country and in their local area."

Furthermore, in some states you have to know your references for at least one year and give information about the quality of your relationship. The licensing board then has to evaluate it. So the issue of "how you met" and "how you evaluate" each other is conducted by an investigation by the board.

If I might quote from the C.3 of the engineer’s code of ethics:

"Licensees shall not attempt to injure, maliciously or falsely, directly or indirectly, the professional reputation, prospects, practice, or employment of other licensees, nor indiscriminately criticize other licensees' work."


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## YaGoof (Jan 18, 2010)

wilheldp_PE said:


> YaGoof said:
> 
> 
> > Incidentally, I am a member of AIAA, SAE, ASME and I do volunteer...
> ...


You are aware of the fact that NSPE has online boards.....

"Networking Opportunities

Through Interest Groups, online forums, and live events, members can reach engineers across the country and in their local area."

so its ok to network through an online board with NSPE, but this board is not acceptable for that?

huh?

Man, I guess I'm just stupid.


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## wilheldp_PE (Jan 18, 2010)

YaGoof said:


> wilheldp_PE said:
> 
> 
> > YaGoof said:
> ...


WTF is your problem, buddy? Just because NSPE has a message board doesn't mean that it is an acceptable way to gain professional references for an NCEES Record. My fraternity has a message board, but you cannot gain membership in the fraternity by getting to know people on it. It's just a means by which to keep in touch with people you have already met in person.

From the looks of it, you work for an exempt industry. If you have no colleagues that have their PE, why do you need it? If you don't (which is not a bad thing...I didn't need mine when I got it), then why would you need an NCEES Record (which is only good if you need to be licensed in other states)?


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## guld0017 (Jan 20, 2010)

Alright...glad to see the pulse on this topic is healthy.

I will be able to find my needed references without EB forum; the PE community in MN is alive and well.

I would agree that handing out references to unknown chat room folks just for a back scratch is a poor idea at best. However I think there are plenty of reputable engineers that frequent this site and would be very capable of being a reference for someone with enough vetting. I may have started with my head in the clouds on this approach...

Thanks for all the input.


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