MICHIGAN - RESULTS - Page 3 - APR 2007 - Engineer Boards
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Raanne

MICHIGAN - RESULTS

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Guest BigBen
These forms are a big mess. I think the experience forms are supposed to be mailed directly by the person giving the reference. That's what it seems to say at the very top of Side 2 (in bold). I'm going to provide an envelope addressed to the board to each of my references so they don't have any excuse to dilly-dally.

mudpuppy & Raanne,

I read it the same way. 1 Experience Verification Form mailed from me to the reference. I'll include a stamped and addressed envelope for them to send it along when they are done.

Now, may I contribute to the "smart enough to pass a test, but not to get the forms right" discussion???

Do the five boxes in the "Work Experience Report" need to match the 5 "Experience Verification Forms" I am sending out?

My work history looks like this:

2.5 years at Company A

1 year off to travel.

1 month with Company B (Didn't work out)

3 years with Company C doing contract work for Companies D, E, and F.

To be correct on my "Work Experience Report", I would have to list:

Company C

Company B

Company A

Unfortunately, this leaves that GAP that the form says I can't have between Companyies A and B.

To make matters worse, I don't really want to use a reference from Company B since my tenure was 30 days.

I'd really like to use references from A (2) C (2) and D(1)

Can I list the companies in correct order on the "Work Experience Report" and then have references that are not listed there????

Am I making this too difficult?

I've worked TOO hard to mess this up now!

help?

-Ben

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help?

I spent all afternoon poring over these forms, and they got me more frustrated than I've been in quite a while.

Your problem crossed my mind when I read that form--what if someone *does* have a gap in experience? Gotta love government bureaucracy. I have the opposite problem; I've been in the same job the past six years (actually I have a little experience between when I got my BS and when I started my MS, but I'm not even going to try to document that). I figured at first I could just list my current job once, but there isn't space to put all five references in one box. I'm guessing one of the purposes of this form is to provide your references' addresses so the board can contact them if they don't get the form back. So I guess I'll just repeat everything five times, changing only the reference's name and address. This is the long way to answer your first question, i.e., yes I think the work experience form should match the experience verification forms.

The form does say "attach additional sheets if necessary" at the top, so in your case I think I would document the gap in one of the spaces and lump the 13 months (including comapny :15: together and call it something like "non-relevant experience" and leave the employer and reference fields blank. Then I'd attach a second sheet (another copy of the same form?) to make up for that space.

Of course, it wouldn't hurt to call them and ask. I'm sure you're not the only person with this issue. If you do, let us know what you learn.

Also, I don't know if anyone noticed this, but in the instructions to the reference (top of side 2 of the experience verification form) it says "In addition you must have a license from the state in which the applicant performed work while under your supervision." ?!?!?!? Nowhere else does it say your references have to be your supervisor, and it explicits states that only 3 of the references have to be PEs. :Locolaugh: :Locolaugh: :Locolaugh:

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^^^

Darn smileys... that :15: is supposed to be the letter B followed by )

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Guest

Congrats to mudpuppy, jd_chi02, BigBen, Raanne, and ALBin517!!!!!!!!! :15: :Locolaugh:

JR

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I spent all afternoon poring over these forms, and they got me more frustrated than I've been in quite a while.

I don't know how many hours I spent on those forms over the past few weeks.

writing experience summaries

addressing the envelopes

requesting that Florida send proof of my Fundamentals exam

Probably five or six hours total - that's why I started working on the forms around June 1.

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Guest moderndoug

I sure hope that the state is flexible w.r.t. line-up of references and work experience chronology. I'm at a major auto OEM and my work history covers a lot of territory, but all with the same company. The issue is that PEs are not pletiful in most of the groups I've worked, so my licensed PE references will all track to a couple of assignments. My plan is to just keep sending more and more references to them until they capitulate and license me! ModernDoug

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Yes, I have the form somewhere, but I found the attached files on the MI site yesterday - you can see that the same link got me two different files (with the same filename!) - so sometimes the site is messed up.

A useful contact:

"Michael Pillow" <jmpillo@michigan.gov> This is the guy that will review your application. He works for Gloria Keene (who is listed on the website).

As Ben mentions, mail the verification forms to your references and include a stamped envelope addressed to the State certification board.

The five boxes on the verification report do not necessarily have to match the verification forms (per M. Pillow), but I would get it as close as you can.

Ben - don't worry about the year off gap; if I remember correctly, on the back side of the verification report, you sum up the work experience you're claiming.

I would also suggest that when you mail your verification report to the state, include a short note to Mike Pillow with your contact information and say something like.... if there is anything that appears to be missing or confusing, please contact me.

Congrats again to you all and good luck with the forms

ps took me about 8 weeks to get my number

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I was under the impression that you needed someone from each of your years that you are counting as experience - so you can not leave a certain employer off. (Part of the requirement was that you had to work under a PE for 4 years, so I think you need to prove that at least one person you worked with at that job has their license.)

I was going to provide a SASE with each of my references - as you can provide more than 5 references if you want, it might not hurt to provide a non-PE reference for the time you were traveling or working at other non-relevant jobs, just so there wasn't a "gap". In addition - the PE at my current job said it does not need to be someone you worked for / in the same company with. If you are in consulting engineering (say, mechanical) and you work with an electrical firm, you can ask someone who you've worked on jobs with, but is in a different company, to be a reference.

I was going to ask 7 people, because i'm afraid someone wont send it back or something. (i have worked with absent minded people in the past!)

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I sure hope that the state is flexible w.r.t. line-up of references and work experience chronology. I'm at a major auto OEM and my work history covers a lot of territory, but all with the same company. The issue is that PEs are not pletiful in most of the groups I've worked, so my licensed PE references will all track to a couple of assignments. My plan is to just keep sending more and more references to them until they capitulate and license me! ModernDoug

The state requires five references and I'm sending out six. In case somebody drags their feet...

But I regularly communicate with all six guys I'm asking for references. So I should know when the forms are returned.

-ALB

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I sure hope that the state is flexible w.r.t. line-up of references and work experience chronology. I'm at a major auto OEM and my work history covers a lot of territory, but all with the same company. The issue is that PEs are not pletiful in most of the groups I've worked, so my licensed PE references will all track to a couple of assignments. My plan is to just keep sending more and more references to them until they capitulate and license me! ModernDoug

Also, I have been informed that state regulations dictate that I invite all my references for beers after work one day this week. Has anyone else been so advised?

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Guest BigBen

singlespeed,

THANKS so much for your help and information. I think this is helping me to develop a plan. Perhaps I'll run it by Michael Pillow via Email before I submit.

I'll list my work experience from current to oldest (Since Graduating)

1) Current job (3 years)

2) Short job (30 days)

3) Time off Traveling (1 year)

4) Old Job (2.5 years)

5) Grad School (2 Years)

6) Extended internship following BSME until grad school started (6 months)

I'll then use my PE Contacts as follows:

1) PE from a contract customer for 8 months while working for my current employer.

2&3) PEs I worked for/with at my Old Job (2.5 years)

That combines to be over 3 years working directly with PEs, which covers me (MSME counts as a year off the 4)

I'll try to get a 4th PE reference from the Old Job, but I'm not sure where he is now.

I will have to assume that the references I'm listing in "work Experience" are to confirm that work. I'll use some of them on my Experience Verification Forms. I'll also have second references from the same jobs who won't be listed on the Work Experience Report.

WHEW. I think I'm starting to pull this together.

If anyone has thoughts, I'd love to hear them!

-Ben

Yes, I have the form somewhere, but I found the attached files on the MI site yesterday - you can see that the same link got me two different files (with the same filename!) - so sometimes the site is messed up.

A useful contact:

"Michael Pillow" <jmpillo@michigan.gov> This is the guy that will review your application. He works for Gloria Keene (who is listed on the website).

As Ben mentions, mail the verification forms to your references and include a stamped envelope addressed to the State certification board.

The five boxes on the verification report do not necessarily have to match the verification forms (per M. Pillow), but I would get it as close as you can.

Ben - don't worry about the year off gap; if I remember correctly, on the back side of the verification report, you sum up the work experience you're claiming.

I would also suggest that when you mail your verification report to the state, include a short note to Mike Pillow with your contact information and say something like.... if there is anything that appears to be missing or confusing, please contact me.

Congrats again to you all and good luck with the forms

ps took me about 8 weeks to get my number

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Guest BigBen
Also, I don't know if anyone noticed this, but in the instructions to the reference (top of side 2 of the experience verification form) it says "In addition you must have a license from the state in which the applicant performed work while under your supervision." ?!?!?!? Nowhere else does it say your references have to be your supervisor, and it explicits states that only 3 of the references have to be PEs. :mail-296::brickwall: :brickwall:

Yeah, I saw that too.

This should be great. At no point was my direct manager a PE..... but, I worked with guys who were.

I don't have 5 PE's, only about 3 or 4 that I can use.

I suppose I'll have to drop eveyone a note saying to 'disregard' that part about their license if they don't have a license.......

Best of all, We were all working in California for about 2.5 years of my experience.

(I can't wait to see if that messes me up)

ugh.

-Ben

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Guest moderndoug

One of my PE references doesn't have a stamp (never did) so he's just going to put his number in the box and sign it - not very "professional". I hope Mike Pillow is the forgiving kind of guy. Thoughts??? ModernDoug

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One of my PE references doesn't have a stamp (never did) so he's just going to put his number in the box and sign it - not very "professional". I hope Mike Pillow is the forgiving kind of guy. Thoughts??? ModernDoug

I aksed my department's director for a reference and he said sure, he does it quite often. He added that he just recently got his first stamp (he got his license about 25 years ago); he used to just sign and put his number in the box. So it shouldn't be a problem.

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Guest moderndoug

One more thing - my post-grad experience started with Oldsmobile and ended in 1990, I just put N/A for verifying reference. I think it will fly because I'm well over the 4 year requirement and that was 17 years ago (not to mention that the entire division is GONE!). Any other good work history stories?

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Guest BigBen
One of my PE references doesn't have a stamp (never did) so he's just going to put his number in the box and sign it - not very "professional". I hope Mike Pillow is the forgiving kind of guy. Thoughts??? ModernDoug

Doug,

Let me know if you find out anything about the 'no stamp' issue.

In my line of work (Private Company Product Development) PEs almost never stamp anything. One of my refernces doesn't have his stamp anymore beacuse it crumbled after 30 years of not needing it.

He'll get a new stamp if I'll spring for it, but I'd rather find out that Name and Licnese number is sufficient.

:waitwall: :p10940623:

I thought this was supposed to be the "EASY" part of the process!!!!

-Ben

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Guest moderndoug
Doug,

Let me know if you find out anything about the 'no stamp' issue.

In my line of work (Private Company Product Development) PEs almost never stamp anything. One of my refernces doesn't have his stamp anymore beacuse it crumbled after 30 years of not needing it.

He'll get a new stamp if I'll spring for it, but I'd rather find out that Name and Licnese number is sufficient.

:waitwall: :p10940623:

I thought this was supposed to be the "EASY" part of the process!!!!

-Ben

Nothing official yet. My "stampless" PE indicated that he has just "signed" other references w/o an issue before. It was mailed yesterday, so I'll see what "THE ENGINEER BOARD" has to say about it. I have 4 PEs, 6 total references, so maybe this will be a wash in the end.

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Guest moderndoug
Nothing official yet. My "stampless" PE indicated that he has just "signed" other references w/o an issue before. It was mailed yesterday, so I'll see what "THE ENGINEER BOARD" has to say about it. I have 4 PEs, 6 total references, so maybe this will be a wash in the end.

Also, they should have the PE's signature on file, maybe they compare them???

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Guest BigBen
Nothing official yet. My "stampless" PE indicated that he has just "signed" other references w/o an issue before. It was mailed yesterday, so I'll see what "THE ENGINEER BOARD" has to say about it. I have 4 PEs, 6 total references, so maybe this will be a wash in the end.

Doug,

I just got an Email back from J. Michael Pillow that states it is OK to for a reference to not have a stamp for your form as long as they list state and license number.

I've asked for his permission to post his letter. If he agrees, I'll include it here.

-Ben

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Guest BigBen
I've asked for his permission to post his letter. If he agrees, I'll include it here.

-Ben

OK. I've got permission from the source, so I'll post his asnwer to my questions here:

Ben,

The Work Experience Report is a summary of your work experience. Each box has a space to list each of the five verifying references that will complete the Experience Verification Form for you. If you have more than one reference for the same job, list the names in the different boxes on the WER, describe the job once and in the next box for the second reference, just write “same as above” for the job/company information. The EVF is designed for you to complete page #1 and give to the reference with a blank page#2. The reference completes page #2 and mails both pages to the address on the form. If the reference does not have a seal, he just needs to list the State where he is licensed and his/her license number. I hope this answers your questions.

I thought this helped to clear up quite a bit.

Hope this helps all of you!

-Ben

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Guest moderndoug
OK. I've got permission from the source, so I'll post his asnwer to my questions here:

I thought this helped to clear up quite a bit.

Hope this helps all of you!

-Ben

From the letter, it appears that a PE from any state will do. The form explicitly states that "you must have a license from the state in which the applicant performed work while under your supervision". I have worked in Michigan with PE's from other states (no Michigan reciprocity) and I have worked with Michigan PEs with lapsed licenses. What is your interpretation on these situations, I don't think they would count. Thanks, ModernDoug

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Guest BigBen
From the letter, it appears that a PE from any state will do. The form explicitly states that "you must have a license from the state in which the applicant performed work while under your supervision". I have worked in Michigan with PE's from other states (no Michigan reciprocity) and I have worked with Michigan PEs with lapsed licenses. What is your interpretation on these situations, I don't think they would count. Thanks, ModernDoug

My first thought would be that those would not count.... but you are well beyond my authority to predict in these matters.

I've got a hunch that three licensed PEs giving you the 'thumbs up' would be good, regardless of the state you were in when you worked together.

I am so glad that I am not the only person with 'special' circumstances!

:bananalama::brickwall::multiplespotting:

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Hope this helps all of you!

Thanks so much, Ben. I ended up filling my work experience form out exactly as Mr. Pillow stated, but still wondered if I was doing it right. My mind is at ease now.

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Also, I have been informed that state regulations dictate that I invite all my references for beers after work one day this week. Has anyone else been so advised?

I've been told it's expected I bring in donuts for the department because I passed. Shouldn't it be the other way around?

Our department even has a Donut Standard--required occasions, minimum dimensions, approved vendors, etc.

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