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Road Guy

Thailand Soccer Team

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i saw some pics of the opening of the cave and it looks like there was steps, handrail, so this must be a common activity in the area?

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50 minutes ago, Road Guy said:

i saw some pics of the opening of the cave and it looks like there was steps, handrail, so this must be a common activity in the area?

I would think so. I can't understand how anyone with children could get as deep into the cave as they are without it being at least somewhat established. I could see them getting to a certain point, seeing the water level rise behind them and then pushing forward deeper into the unknown.

It's a shame to read that an experienced diver already passed away from this rescue. It really speaks to the hazards involved here. I've heard that cave diving is the most dangerous sport in the world. I've done enough spelunking and open water diving to know that cave diving is a really bad idea and it may be that dangerous. I've done some limited diving in a clear limestone cave, with guide ropes and a guide. I never felt unsafe... but I also knew that I'd be completely f*#%ed if the guide had a heart attack. My guess is that if I were in their situation that I could probably make it out with the following assumptions: proper pre-swim nutrition, proper hydration throughout the swim, adequate air supplies (obviously), a guide, a guideline or rope outlining the path, a light source if only to provide a physiological security-blanket. But bear in mind that I am a strong and natural endurance swimmer, have experience spelunking, experienced swimming and minor diving in limestone caves, I'm not claustrophobic, and I can handle the dark but prefer some light to move at a decent speed. I don't know about the last two, but it appears that none of this really applies to the people stuck in that cave, you can't crash course those other things easily.

Knocking the kids out and dragging them by rope is not an option. full stop. There are probably some tight spaces that require active negotiation to get through. Their lack of swimming skills will be lethal to themselves and others. They'll need to swim over a mile, against the current with almost no stopping. Most casual swimmers can't even do that - that really only applies to competitive swimmers, or others that do distance swimming regularly for fun. I can't imagine an malnourished kid doing it without a lot of help. They'll need other guides to pull them along, space get tight and oxygen limited. Adrenaline is the enemy here.

Musk with SpaceX and his borehole company are coming in to look it to make a potential air tunnel. They've got an idea but want some ground truth.  I just don't see it being very viable but I don't have much experience with mining engineering. Your fighting buoyancy, long distances, tight spaces with sharp points and no tolerance for leaks. Is there enough of the materials available now to make such a tunnel? Could it be made quickly? Let's say that the tunnel could be made and inflated without leaks - doesn't this have the potential to block the only available entry and exit points. What if something goes wrong beyond a choke point where people are still trapped?

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Just a few tidbits from different news sources.

  • "The trapped group consists of boys aged 11 to 16, and their 25-year-old football coach."  (Hes basically a kid himself.)

and from CNN reporting locals accounts:

  • The Tham Luang Nang Non caves are known locally as off-limits, a dangerous place where parents warn their children not to go into, especially during monsoon season.
  • "I couldn't believe this would happen to my students. In the classroom, I brought this subject up to teach students. You see, look at this event ... it happened because they were not being careful, their actions has caused a lot of worry and create all kinds of issues to all," he says.

Not placing blame, but the news agencies don't seem to be reporting that this was a known no-go but they did it anyway type of thing.  

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23 hours ago, Dexman PE PMP said:

OKay, I just read that article and saw this quote:

Quote

“Some of the passages are about 8cm in diameter, you can't go through with conventional scuba gear, you have to take off your gear, push through, dig a little bit and zero visibility, feeling your way until you're past the passage.

Firstly this has to be an exaggeration or a type of some kind. Trying to squeeze through a 3" crack isn't possible for humans . How'd those kids make it through there in the first place?! That's way too tight and challenging a cave for a novice.

 

I retract my earlier statement, if it's that tight, I wouldn't be able to to this. I'd wait a few months for the waters to recede, or for a hole to be dug from above to get me.

 

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It's the absolute darkness in caves that really creeps me out. There's no waiting for your eyes to adjust, because there's no light. 

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we explored several different wild caves through scouts when I was a kid, but we always had a map and these were well documented / surveyed caves - & I don't think we had to worry about the monsoon season in N. Ga / Tennessee - but it was always a very fun but serious event, they would always at some point make everyone turn out their lights and basically say, see you cant see and if you get lost, run out of batteries you are fucked! (except we didn't say the F word in scouts) ;)

I took some friends back to the same caves when I was older, we got lost trying to find the lake which supposedly existed in the bottom layers (never found it) but we did make a wrong turn and came to a dead end, someone had made the devils face in the clay at the dead end, scared this shit out of us - that was my last time caving, even though I had been in that same cave at least 10 times, I still found myself a little lost (with a map) no real bearing down there once you get past where all the locals spray paint there names in the first 1/4 mile

I also stopped logging dives around 500 - but I never had any desire to do cave diving or go inside of wrecks - you are already dealing with a dangerous situation and then making it 1000X more risky.

I am still 0% qualified to offer any real advice - not a praying person but I have said a few for these kids - not sure why but I just cant get this out of my head..

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Here's a decent graphic of the cave and dive requirements. 

hUEEjfV.png

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Also, does it make me a bad person that I googled "thailand cave memes"?  I am relieved to report I didn't find any.

yet.

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5 hours ago, Road Guy said:

we explored several different wild caves through scouts when I was a kid, but we always had a map and these were well documented / surveyed caves - & I don't think we had to worry about the monsoon season in N. Ga / Tennessee - but it was always a very fun but serious event, they would always at some point make everyone turn out their lights and basically say, see you cant see and if you get lost, run out of batteries you are fucked! (except we didn't say the F word in scouts) ;)

I took some friends back to the same caves when I was older, we got lost trying to find the lake which supposedly existed in the bottom layers (never found it) but we did make a wrong turn and came to a dead end, someone had made the devils face in the clay at the dead end, scared this shit out of us - that was my last time caving, even though I had been in that same cave at least 10 times, I still found myself a little lost (with a map) no real bearing down there once you get past where all the locals spray paint there names in the first 1/4 mile

I also stopped logging dives around 500 - but I never had any desire to do cave diving or go inside of wrecks - you are already dealing with a dangerous situation and then making it 1000X more risky.

I am still 0% qualified to offer any real advice - not a praying person but I have said a few for these kids - not sure why but I just cant get this out of my head..

This (your story) reminds me of  one of Indiana Jones movie when he was younger in the caves. 

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They've started the process of extracting everyone from the cave. They've drained the water level as much as possible and they want to get started before the weather turns against them later today. Extraction will require swimming and diving and each victim will have two buddy divers per victim to guide them through the entire way.

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Sounds like 5 are out as of this morning, so whatever their plan is, it must be working.

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this is just amazing, hope all these boys get out and then get a "Wild Boars" tattoo!

In this situation would you want to be in the first group out or the last? Seems like having to wait to be the last group would be a little nerve racking..

Hope they throw the rescue teams a massive party after this!

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First group, and either the first or second person depending on if they did a "pathfinder" style exercise first.

Generally in these situations they usually get the healthier and more capable people out first, so being told you're last is usually a bad thing. Also, the longer you wait the better chance for something to go wrong or for the rains to increase and further complicate the situation.

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Reports were the healthiest were taken out first. 

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Im glad they are being rescued but it kinda seems anticlimactic after all the hype and dangers.   how "tesla" engineers were flying in and talking about boring down to save them and lack of oxygen (ironically due to all the people trying to save them using it up) and rising flood waters.

In the end, some sumps and they ended up being able to walk most of the way with a few (albeot challenging) dives.  (at least thats what i heard the rescue turned into)

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Reports were the healthiest were taken out first. 

I actually heard the opposite that they took out the weakest first?

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7 minutes ago, Road Guy said:


I actually heard the opposite that they took out the weakest first?

I'd be a little surprised if they went that route. Unless the doctors figured that they were sick enough that needed the earlier hospitalization and the more favorable exit environment, but not so sick that they would jeopardize the rescue of the stronger victims.

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Maybe they went with the weakest ones first?  Here's quote from the on-going breaking news blog on CNN:

Quote

 

The four boys who were evacuated from a cave in northern Thailand Monday were in better condition than those who were rescued Sunday, Narongsak Osotthanakorn, rescue mission commander, said at a press conference moments ago.

Osotthanakorn would not elaborate but did say all the boys who have been rescued are in good condition.

He added rescue workers will need at least 20 hours to prepare for the next operation, but timing could change depending on weather and water levels. 

Monday’s rescue was carried out four to five hours ahead of schedule due to favorable conditions. 

All rescue workers and divers are resting in preparation for tomorrow’s operation.

Officials will meet late Monday local time to discuss Tuesday’s plans.

 

 

 

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A Clear map of the latest flooded areas.

BRESSAN_Tham_Luang_cave.jpg

Edited by Szar

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3 hours ago, Dleg said:

Maybe they went with the weakest ones first?  Here's quote from the on-going breaking news blog on CNN:

 

 

Nah, the weakest ones are still in the cave. They just went with the weaker ones first. 

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11 out.  Down to one boy inside plus the coach.

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Quote

[Breaking News: Thai cave rescue ends with all 12 boys and soccer coach brought to safety, Thai navy says ]

 

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tonight at 11 - public flogging of the coach?

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I'm so relieved this story has a happy ending.

I hope all the kids and the coach can recover not only physically, but emotionally. I can't imagine what 2+ weeks trapped in a cave will do for the psyche. 

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So with all said an done... was this just media over-hyped?  

 

I do not doubt it was potentially dangerous as a diver did die or that the boys would have survived if left alone, but the efforts actually required to save them were all pretty low tech, strait forward, and rapidly advanced.  

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