SE Exam Cut Score Estimate

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

I posted this for the PPI review course takers but wanted to share it here as well to see if people drew the same conclusion. I went through this forum and gathered as many failing scores as I could find to try to roughly determine the "cut score" that one could typically expect to see on the SE exam. Here is what I found:

On the NCEES website, under "grading", they state the following:

"When an exam is introduced or when its specifications change, a committee of subject-matter experts works with experienced psychometricians (testing experts with a background in statistics) to determine the level of performance that corresponds with minimal competence in that discipline. This becomes the passing score. NCEES does not publish passing scores because they change with each administration. NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way. First-time takers and repeat takers are graded to the same standard.

For subsequent administrations of the exam, statistical equating is used to ensure that this level of performance is consistent across multiple administrations of that exam. Essentially, this means that while the numerical passing score may change with each administration, you are not disadvantaged when one administration of a particular exam is more difficult than another. This process accounts for the 8- to 10-week interval between an exam administration and the release of scores to member licensing boards.

Your exam results are determined by the number of items you answered correctly for the exam in its entirety. There are no minimum requirements for particular sections or topics within an exam. You are not penalized for incorrect answers."

Also note this:

"If the reviews confirm an error in a question, credit may be given for more than one answer."

So, some things are clear:

• The cut score changes from exam to exam.
• There is no grading curve.
• The exams are graded so that the cut score reflects a consistent difficulty; easier exams will require a higher score to pass than harder exams.
• You are scored based on your combined performance on both the morning and afternoon of each day.

However, if you get the very harsh words of "unacceptable" on your exam results you will be given a diagnostic report which will grade your morning problems as number answered correctly, and your afternoon problems as either acceptable, improvement required, or unacceptable. No indication of what "improvement required" or "unacceptable" is given.

The following is my own conclusions, which are entirely based on interpretation of limited data and my own assumptions. I could be completely incorrect (but would like to think I'm close).

Based on scores people have reported after failing the SE exam I've developed the following conclusions:

• You need approximately 28-30 on the morning from what I can tell.
• If you have a good morning score then you likely need two "acceptable" and two "improvement required" scores for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
• If you have a less than 30 morning score then you likely need three "acceptable" and one "improvement required" for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
• As best I can tell, if you get an unacceptable on any of the afternoon problems then you will not pass. Perhaps if you have a near perfect morning score then you may pass but this would be hard to determine based on limited information.

This is based 43 vertical and lateral scores that were reported, about 50% buildings and 50% bridges. Most of the bridge reported scores were on the lateral exam, most of the building reported scores were on the vertical.

The highest scores on the morning that still failed were the following:

• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 32/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable, Unacceptable

The highest scores on the afternoon that still failed were as follows (some of these are duplicates from above in highest morning scores):

• 25/30 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable
• 22/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
• 28/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required

Do those who have taken the exam or done similar estimations agree with my conclusions?

[bassplayer45 14]

This is very close. I personally think (from seeing my results), that 27 is the target. Any form of "un-acceptable" will fail you. I see my 25-40 with all essays passing and was certain I passed the damn thing.  Also, I think they are VERY lenient as far as math and final answers go. They want method and approach.  

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

You might be right as I didn't find any 27+ that didn't have an obvious failing score on the afternoon. I guessed 28 but you're right that it may be lower.

I did see one 27/40 Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required which is why I guessed 28 as the lower bound of the morning scores. However, that could have been an easy year and they bumped up the cut score or those two improvement required may be too poor on the afternoon combined with a marginal morning score. Plus with a 25/40 and all acceptable (that's good enough in my mind) I felt that the 27 seemed too low.

In the end, I'm trying to establish a baseline where SE exam takers can judge how close they are to passing when they take a practice exam. That way if someone gets 26 out of 40 and do well on the afternoon they can feel confident that they just have to work on not making mistakes. Conversely, if someone gets a 20/40 on the sample exam then they clearly have some work to do and need to double down on their studies to get ready in time for the exam. Thus, I figure the slightly more conservative estimate of the cut score is the way to go.

Edited February 8, 2016 by TehMightyEngineer

[trees 0]

I had 29/40 in the morning and two acceptable, one unacceptable and one improvement required for building. I failed.

[trees 0]

I think one unacceptable in the afternoon will fail you unless you have extremely high score in the morning.

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

I agree trees.

[User Requested Deletion 1]

This is interesting, thanks for compiling. Any idea how the practice exam compares to actual? I remember the PE structural afternoon exam seemed quite a bit easier than the real thing. 

 

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

I'd say the NCEES sample exam will be on par with or a little easier than the actual exam. The sample exam is very close though, so you can learn a lot about the difficulty of problems from that.

[smahurin 47]

I think the NCEES practice exams are very indicative of the actual exam difficulty.  Which, really they should be, they are just past test questions from my understanding.  For studying for both the PE Civil/Structural and both SE days I also ordered a PPI practice exam.  These were way harder than the actual exams.  Which I suppose also makes sense, as they are trying to prepare you for the exams.  If you can do well on the much harder PPI practice exams they must reason you'll do well on the easier NCEES exam.  

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

13 hours ago, Masterpe said:

well the pass score for PE is 70, no?

 

if you have 27/40 in the morning

two acceptable, two need improvement in the afternoon (let's assume 10 for acceptable, 5 for needs improvement, 0 for unacceptable) that's a 30/40

total 57/80 is 71%. that works no?

 

that seems to be the only logical way to grade this.

 

I'm not sure, but NCEES has been pretty clear that they adjust the passing score to make sure that exams have equal difficulty (harder exams get lower passing scores). Also, while I think you are somewhat right on your scoring arrangement, it wouldn't explain some of the failing scores. For example; 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable should get you 63/80 or 78% but is a failing score. Most people are fairly convinced that an unacceptable on the afternoon kills any chance at a passing score. Otherwise I think you can figure it's something along the lines of what you proposed.

[Mithrandir918 5]

58 minutes ago, TehMightyEngineer said:

I'm not sure, but NCEES has been pretty clear that they adjust the passing score to make sure that exams have equal difficulty (harder exams get lower passing scores). Also, while I think you are somewhat right on your scoring arrangement, it wouldn't explain some of the failing scores. For example; 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable should get you 63/80 or 78% but is a failing score. Most people are fairly convinced that an unacceptable on the afternoon kills any chance at a passing score. Otherwise I think you can figure it's something along the lines of what you proposed.

To make it a little more confusing, a thought..  Do the graders in the afternoon know your score from the morning exam?  Due to the subjectivity of grading a written exam and if say you obtained 33/40 in the AM that you could get the benefit of the doubt in the afternoon if you were close to getting a problem wrong.  Again just speculation but it seems there is no way to predict the outcome.  Best way is to just try and get 100% then you dont have to worry.

[Lukus 10]

2 minutes ago, Mithrandir918 said:

To make it a little more confusing, a thought..  Do the graders in the afternoon know your score from the morning exam?  Due to the subjectivity of grading a written exam and if say you obtained 33/40 in the AM that you could get the benefit of the doubt in the afternoon if you were close to getting a problem wrong.  Again just speculation but it seems there is no way to predict the outcome.  Best way is to just try and get 100% then you dont have to worry.

I would assume that the PM graders won't know your identity. In fact, your name isn't on your PM answer booklet and you are instructed not to write your name anywhere.  They just have a number on the front.  

 

[Troll 1]

On 2/8/2016 at 4:09 PM, TehMightyEngineer said:

I posted this for the PPI review course takers but wanted to share it here as well to see if people drew the same conclusion. I went through this forum and gathered as many failing scores as I could find to try to roughly determine the "cut score" that one could typically expect to see on the SE exam. Here is what I found:

On the NCEES website, under "grading", they state the following:

"When an exam is introduced or when its specifications change, a committee of subject-matter experts works with experienced psychometricians (testing experts with a background in statistics) to determine the level of performance that corresponds with minimal competence in that discipline. This becomes the passing score. NCEES does not publish passing scores because they change with each administration. NCEES scores each exam with no predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way. First-time takers and repeat takers are graded to the same standard.

For subsequent administrations of the exam, statistical equating is used to ensure that this level of performance is consistent across multiple administrations of that exam. Essentially, this means that while the numerical passing score may change with each administration, you are not disadvantaged when one administration of a particular exam is more difficult than another. This process accounts for the 8- to 10-week interval between an exam administration and the release of scores to member licensing boards.

Your exam results are determined by the number of items you answered correctly for the exam in its entirety. There are no minimum requirements for particular sections or topics within an exam. You are not penalized for incorrect answers."

Also note this:

"If the reviews confirm an error in a question, credit may be given for more than one answer."

So, some things are clear:

• The cut score changes from exam to exam.
• There is no grading curve.
• The exams are graded so that the cut score reflects a consistent difficulty; easier exams will require a higher score to pass than harder exams.
• You are scored based on your combined performance on both the morning and afternoon of each day.

However, if you get the very harsh words of "unacceptable" on your exam results you will be given a diagnostic report which will grade your morning problems as number answered correctly, and your afternoon problems as either acceptable, improvement required, or unacceptable. No indication of what "improvement required" or "unacceptable" is given.

The following is my own conclusions, which are entirely based on interpretation of limited data and my own assumptions. I could be completely incorrect (but would like to think I'm close).

Based on scores people have reported after failing the SE exam I've developed the following conclusions:

• You need approximately 28-30 on the morning from what I can tell.
• If you have a good morning score then you likely need two "acceptable" and two "improvement required" scores for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
• If you have a less than 30 morning score then you likely need three "acceptable" and one "improvement required" for buildings, or two "acceptable" (one of these being the 2 hour problem) and an "improvement required" for bridges.
• As best I can tell, if you get an unacceptable on any of the afternoon problems then you will not pass. Perhaps if you have a near perfect morning score then you may pass but this would be hard to determine based on limited information.

This is based 43 vertical and lateral scores that were reported, about 50% buildings and 50% bridges. Most of the bridge reported scores were on the lateral exam, most of the building reported scores were on the vertical.

The highest scores on the morning that still failed were the following:

• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 32/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Unacceptable
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 30/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable, Unacceptable

The highest scores on the afternoon that still failed were as follows (some of these are duplicates from above in highest morning scores):

• 25/30 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable
• 22/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Improvement Required
• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 35/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable
• 31/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required
• 28/40 - Acceptable, Improvement Required, Improvement Required, Improvement Required

Do those who have taken the exam or done similar estimations agree with my conclusions?

I thought it was 40 questions in the morning, 3 or 4 essay questions in the afternoon for each exam, friday and saturday?

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

On 3/13/2017 at 7:13 PM, Troll said:

I thought it was 40 questions in the morning, 3 or 4 essay questions in the afternoon for each exam, friday and saturday?

Where did I say it would be otherwise?

[Troll 1]

1 hour ago, TehMightyEngineer said:

Where did I say it would be otherwise?

on the text you typed which i clearly quoted.

 

you mentioned:

morning scores for 40 questions and 3/4 essays

afternoon scores for 40 questions and 3/4 essays

[David Connor, SE 16]

Everyone has the same morning section. It's 40 multiple choice questions. Roughly 30 building questions and 10 bridge questions. 

If you take the buildings exam you will have 4 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams.

If you take the bridges exam you will have 3 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams. 

I don't know why they do it that way, maybe because the bridge essay questions don't have masonry or wood, but that is the case. 

[Troll 1]

2 hours ago, David Connor, SE said:

Everyone has the same morning section. It's 40 multiple choice questions. Roughly 30 building questions and 10 bridge questions. 

If you take the buildings exam you will have 4 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams.

If you take the bridges exam you will have 3 essay questions, both vertical and lateral exams. 

I don't know why they do it that way, maybe because the bridge essay questions don't have masonry or wood, but that is the case. 

multiple choice in morning, essay in afternoon correct?

 

 

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

1 hour ago, Troll said:

multiple choice in morning, essay in afternoon correct?

 

 

Apparently my earlier reply didn't post.

When I mentioned the highest scores on the morning in my original post I sorted the scores based on the morning scores and posted both the morning and afternoon scores. For the highest scores on the afternoon I did the same thing but sorted by afternoon scores and showed both. I did this because the passing score is some combination of the morning and afternoon and thus you need to look at both.

Plus, if we look at a clearly passing afternoon score you can then determine that the morning caused the failing score and thus try to determine the passing (cut) morning score. Vice versa for determining the afternoon cut score.

And, yes, multiple choice in the morning and essay in the afternoon.

[StructuralVFL 0]

On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 4:09 PM, TehMightyEngineer said:

• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable

This is a scary thought right here. 83% on morning, 75% on afternoon, and still a failure.

Does anyone have an idea of the differences between "Acceptable", "Improvement Required", or Unacceptable? This is my first time taking the test (this April) so I don't have any personal experience to go from.

Also, just wanted to give a shoutout to Ian.  I'm taking the PPI OnDemand course and feel like I know you, but with it being last Spring's course, I obviously can't chat with the rest during class.

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

30 minutes ago, StructuralVFL said:

This is a scary thought right here. 83% on morning, 75% on afternoon, and still a failure.

Does anyone have an idea of the differences between "Acceptable", "Improvement Required", or Unacceptable? This is my first time taking the test (this April) so I don't have any personal experience to go from.

Also, just wanted to give a shoutout to Ian.  I'm taking the PPI OnDemand course and feel like I know you, but with it being last Spring's course, I obviously can't chat with the rest during class.

Thanks StructuralVFL! Hopefully the course is working out for you, last year was a pretty good run with lots of good info. I'm surprised it's the Spring course and not the October course, though.

While I'm obviously knee-deep into this years PPI review course but if you have any questions about something brought up during that course just message me and I'll see what I can do.

Regarding the score; yeah, scary. That score highly convinced me that any unacceptable kills an exam attempt. I don't believe we know for sure but my guess is something like "needs improvement" is you made a minor math error or missed a step but overall the approach was good. Unacceptable seems to be some major flaw in the math or approach or otherwise it wasn't clear that you knew the material.

[Mithrandir918 5]

On 12/27/2016 at 8:46 AM, Becoming SE said:

Hi everyone!!

I need some help on study guide and tips about Lateral exam (AM & PM). Taking Bridge for the afternoon. No experience with the seismic design in everyday practice. I got following resources from my last posts replies. They are NCEES practice test, PPI practice test and David Connor's bridge problems for the morning. FHWA seismic manual & IDOT seismic design guide for the afternoon.  Are these enough? seems like lateral results are harder than vertical so any help on study tips and guide would be great. Thank you!!

 

On 12/19/2016 at 8:57 AM, dussbucs said:

I took the EET SE Lateral online demand course this past fall.  I had taken and failed the SE Lateral (Bridges) multiple times over the past few years, primarily due to the AM multiple choice questions which I was never able to achieve an acceptable level.  I almost always got "Acceptable" on all 3 of the PM bridge essay questions.

I have taken a couple of different review courses and I found EET to be the best option.  I used School of PE in the past, which helped me past the SE Vertical (Bridges) on my 1st attempt.  I took School of PE again for the Lateral and found that only the instruction for the bridge PM essays was worthwhile.  I also tried Kaplan's online demand course for Lateral and did not find the instruction to be very helpful.  There was limited application to exam problems and too much background discussion.

Just to give some background on my experience with the EET SE Lateral online demand course: I signed up rather late and did not start studying until September 18th for the October 29th exam.  However, I worked through all of the online tutorials nearly every night and spent my entire weekends studying up until the exam.  My focus was on topics related to buildings for the AM portion, which I struggled with in the past.  The instruction was extremely helpful and there are many homework problems to go with it.  I would advise anyone who is interested in this class to take advantage of its wealth of information and practical exam problems.  As stated in one of the posts above, the exam simulation is extremely helpful.  No other course I have taken previously offers this level of training.  Both instructors are extremely knowledgeable and very approachable for 1 on 1 tutoring in the evenings to answer questions.  Although I did not focus too much on the bridge PM essays since I had always done well in the past, the course material is also extremely valuable.

I found out on December 12th that I passed the SE Lateral (Bridges) to close out that chapter.  Again, I highly recommend EET for the SE review courses and I am confident that this applies to any of their other topics (Civil PE, CA Seismic PE, FE, etc.).

 

On 1/13/2017 at 8:16 AM, Lukus said:

• 33/40 - Acceptable, Acceptable, Acceptable, Unacceptable

This score is unfathomable to me to fail the test...

[Mithrandir918 5]

So just to be clear, are the morning and afternoon graded separate and treated as separate units?  For example you have to pass both individually or the total overall score of both is what determines pass/fail?  With these cut scores it appears that the pass/fail is determined by the individual module rather than the sum of both.

[StructuralVFL 0]

2 hours ago, Mithrandir918 said:

 With these cut scores it appears that the pass/fail is determined by the individual module rather than the sum of both.

That's what I'm taking away. It appears that a single "Unacceptable" would be enough to throw out a 40/40 and 3 "Acceptable" answers. It's mind blowing. It may not be that extreme since we never know the scores of those who pass, but the thought of one unacceptable being the difference is paralyzing.

[TehMightyEngineer 37]

1 hour ago, StructuralVFL said:

That's what I'm taking away. It appears that a single "Unacceptable" would be enough to throw out a 40/40 and 3 "Acceptable" answers. It's mind blowing. It may not be that extreme since we never know the scores of those who pass, but the thought of one unacceptable being the difference is paralyzing.

According to NCEES: "Your combined performance on both sections much demonstrate minimum competency."

Not sure what they mean by "combined performance" but I suspect that they mean you have to pass both and thus a "failed" afternoon gets you a failed exam day. And, yes, this sucks that a single problem can kill your exam.

[dussbucs 22]

Based on my experiences, I'm going to guess:

Morning:

- Need at least 28/40 ( +\- 1 or 2).

Afternoon:

- I agree that Unacceptable on any problem will kill the result.

- For Buildings: 3 Acceptable & 1 Improvement Required may be ok.

- For Bridges: Acceptable on the 2-hour and one 1-hour, Improvement Required on the other 1-hour may be ok. But Improvement Required on the 2-hour may kill it.