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Is this your pet peeve too?

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I was having a conversation with a guy in our office that is an EIT about the use of "Engineer" in the industry. We work in the consulting industry so your engineering degree, EIT, and PE is very valuable. I have noticed the "watering down' of the term Engineer in the industry and the general population that are not Engineers. It frankly bothers me becuase I, along with everyone else who graduated with an Engineering degree had to miss that rocking party when we were in college and had to go to that 8 am physics class while the business majors or art majors were doing keg stands. I even heard a commercial on the radio for a local tech school for a "Diesel engineering degree" which is really only a diesel mechanic. Not that there is anything wrong with a diesel mechanic degree but you are not an Engineer. The same thing seems to be happening with the new "manufacturing engineering technology" degrees. While they have to take some engineering classes they are still not engineers. Don't get me wrong, there isn't anything wrong with these degrees but they are not "Engineers"

I have noticed the same thing with people in the consulting feild using "Engineer" on business cards, emails, ect when legally you are not an "Engineer" with respect to the law. You may have a Engineering degree, and an EIT but you are not technically an "Engineer" At least in our state (South Dakota) the state Engineer has been working on getting people that are not registered from calling themselves "Engineers" They allow you to call yourself EIT, mechanical/electrical designer, but not Engineers.

Is this anyone elses pet peeve? I am proud and very protective of the fact that I am a registered ENGINEER and I don't want it to loose its meeting.

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I have stated this before, and will again... http://engineerboards.com/index.php?showtopic=19766&st=0&p=6982919&hl=+physician%20+assistant&fromsearch=1entry6982919

what we need to do is petition the lawmakers to make laws limiting the use of the term Engineer. We need to petition them to require a real Engineer (EIT or PE) be required for more work, increasing the demand for Engineers.

Also, the term Engineer In Training is a horrible, horrible term. It is similar to Physician's Assistant. These two professions have authority and responsibility, yet a title that makes them sound like juveniles. The diluted term engineer is perceived as better than the official term Engineer In Training, doesn't it?

Perceived order is PE>Engineer>engineer>EIT, even though this is not true.

I propose EIT be renamed to Registered Engineer. Then we'll have PE>RE>Engineer>engineer.

We could also come up with a new, copyrightable term, similar to what the Realtor association has done.

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I have stated this before, and will again... http://engineerboard...1

what we need to do is petition the lawmakers to make laws limiting the use of the term Engineer. We need to petition them to require a real Engineer (EIT or PE) be required for more work, increasing the demand for Engineers.

Also, the term Engineer In Training is a horrible, horrible term. It is similar to Physician's Assistant. These two professions have authority and responsibility, yet a title that makes them sound like juveniles. The diluted term engineer is perceived as better than the official term Engineer In Training, doesn't it?

Perceived order is PE>Engineer>engineer>EIT, even though this is not true.

I propose EIT be renamed to Registered Engineer. Then we'll have PE>RE>Engineer>engineer.

We could also come up with a new, copyrightable term, similar to what the Realtor association has done.

You lost me. A PE is an RE.

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While I am going to deduct a few points based on the "sdsu" in your engineerboards.com name (SDSMT Alum)...kidding aside, I agree 100%. I worked with many people in my previous career that were labeled as "test engineers", "integration engineers", "production engineers" etc. Until I started working at a A/E firm, I really never knew there was a difference. I agree that the term engineer should be regulated more stringently. I am proud of my EI and PE credentials, and I enjoy the fact that there are many opportunities that aren't available to others using that term. My problem arises in the fact that the general public doesn't realize the difference between a licensed engineer, a "test engineer", and the engineer that drives a train. We are professionals just like lawyers, doctors and CPAs...but our profession is watered down to the point that anyone can call themselves an engineer based on industrial exemption. We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices. I base some of this on the fact that my engineering on a daily basis involves no more than basic calculations and .xlsx spreadsheets. I freaked out on how much I did or didn't study for the PE, but when it was all said and done...it wasn't any harder than a typical week in the office. The PE is nothing more than knowing the fundamentals of engineering and the ability to apply them. Good luck on next weeks "suckhole"...it's not near as bad as what your mind tells you it is.

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While I am going to deduct a few points based on the "sdsu" in your engineerboards.com name (SDSMT Alum)...kidding aside, I agree 100%. I worked with many people in my previous career that were labeled as "test engineers", "integration engineers", "production engineers" etc. Until I started working at a A/E firm, I really never knew there was a difference. I agree that the term engineer should be regulated more stringently. I am proud of my EI and PE credentials, and I enjoy the fact that there are many opportunities that aren't available to others using that term. My problem arises in the fact that the general public doesn't realize the difference between a licensed engineer, a "test engineer", and the engineer that drives a train. We are professionals just like lawyers, doctors and CPAs...but our profession is watered down to the point that anyone can call themselves an engineer based on industrial exemption. We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices. I base some of this on the fact that my engineering on a daily basis involves no more than basic calculations and .xlsx spreadsheets. I freaked out on how much I did or didn't study for the PE, but when it was all said and done...it wasn't any harder than a typical week in the office. The PE is nothing more than knowing the fundamentals of engineering and the ability to apply them. Good luck on next weeks "suckhole"...it's not near as bad as what your mind tells you it is.

I went to SDSU. ;)

You lost me at the half-way point.............. are you saying that an engineering degree is harder to accomplish than a medical or law degree? And you're saying that the PE exam is as easy as a week at work? I don't think these are fair statements.

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I went to SDSU. ;)

I think he meant South Dakota State University. On a related note, I also went to SDSU (San Diego State University). Graduated in 2008. When did you graduate? Very likely we crossed paths at some point.

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I went to SDSU. ;)

I think he meant South Dakota State University. On a related note, I also went to SDSU (San Diego State University). Graduated in 2008. When did you graduate? Very likely we crossed paths at some point.

Nice. I graduated in Dec 2004. :)

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We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices.

:blink2: Wow, can you introduce me to your drug dealer?

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While I am going to deduct a few points based on the "sdsu" in your engineerboards.com name (SDSMT Alum)...kidding aside, I agree 100%. I worked with many people in my previous career that were labeled as "test engineers", "integration engineers", "production engineers" etc. Until I started working at a A/E firm, I really never knew there was a difference. I agree that the term engineer should be regulated more stringently. I am proud of my EI and PE credentials, and I enjoy the fact that there are many opportunities that aren't available to others using that term. My problem arises in the fact that the general public doesn't realize the difference between a licensed engineer, a "test engineer", and the engineer that drives a train. We are professionals just like lawyers, doctors and CPAs...but our profession is watered down to the point that anyone can call themselves an engineer based on industrial exemption. We worked harder for our BS, than the others did in their prep for applying for the grad school PhD/JD. We were just more disciplined as undergrads. After a BS Engineering degree, the MS is a "no-brainer", a biology or Pol Sci BA "creates" the thought that Med/Law school is difficult. Give me the LSAT or MCAT study materials and 8 months, I could pass them both. I may be slightly jaded, but engineers and only engineers, are not only well prepared for any job coming out of any undergrad program, but also smart/disciplined enough to be able to pass the LCAT/MCAT without any more knowledge than what can be memorized and learned from case law and modern medical practices. I base some of this on the fact that my engineering on a daily basis involves no more than basic calculations and .xlsx spreadsheets. I freaked out on how much I did or didn't study for the PE, but when it was all said and done...it wasn't any harder than a typical week in the office. The PE is nothing more than knowing the fundamentals of engineering and the ability to apply them. Good luck on next weeks "suckhole"...it's not near as bad as what your mind tells you it is.

I went to SDSU. ;)

You lost me at the half-way point.............. are you saying that an engineering degree is harder to accomplish than a medical or law degree? And you're saying that the PE exam is as easy as a week at work? I don't think these are fair statements.

no i think he's saying an engineering bachelor's degree is harder than the bachelor's degree you need in order to go on to law school (almost certainly true) and med school (quite possibly true).

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"missed that party" that cracked me up. I took a different approach. i partied my balls off but i was fortunate that if i did all my homework, and I did...id be a B student or better. I was OK with that. did i get a 3.95 gpa? no. 3.2. but i never missed a party!!! :) I have almost had my teeth smashed out by the unfortunate keg stand....

i agree about engineer being 'watered' down though. I defend whenever i find a chance. So many times I get put into the same pond as a plans engineer. so when plans come through for takeoffs...and something is f'ed. i get a call from sales and get the joking...."stupid engineers". if they come in and start that....i just point to the frame on the wall....haha. yes thats right, bow.

All in all at least we all know how smart we are :) but can admit mistakes. we're all human.

now im craving a sam adams. little early though.

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"missed that party" that cracked me up. I took a different approach. i partied my balls off but i was fortunate that if i did all my homework, and I did...id be a B student or better. I was OK with that. did i get a 3.95 gpa? no. 3.2. but i never missed a party!!! :) I have almost had my teeth smashed out by the unfortunate keg stand....

My buddy and I used to start drinking at 11 AM once we legally were able to go to the bar. We still made the dean's list every semester. The people you see at a dive bar at 11 AM are a savory batch, let me tell you.

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"missed that party" that cracked me up. I took a different approach. i partied my balls off but i was fortunate that if i did all my homework, and I did...id be a B student or better. I was OK with that. did i get a 3.95 gpa? no. 3.2. but i never missed a party!!! :) I have almost had my teeth smashed out by the unfortunate keg stand....

My buddy and I used to start drinking at 11 AM once we legally were able to go to the bar. We still made the dean's list every semester. The people you see at a dive bar at 11 AM are a savory batch, let me tell you.

One of my classmates in college showed up late one day. I think it was Aerodynamics I. Anyway, the a couple other people intimated that he was probably drunk and/or hung over. When he came in the door the prof commented that his classmates thought him an alcoholic. His response: "I'm not an alcoholic. I'm a drunk. Alcoholics go to meetings."

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I work in construction. Lots of people in construction have the job title of engineer but never studied the subject in school or never have taken/passed the licensing exam. I still am confused because I understand I can't call myself an engineer until I pass the PE exam.

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I work in construction. Lots of people in construction have the job title of engineer but never studied the subject in school or never have taken/passed the licensing exam. I still am confused because I understand I can't call myself an engineer until I pass the PE exam.

While I agree with you, it is all about what the laws say in your state. You can call yourself and engineer, just not plans.

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Funny, I was down in Key West a few weeks ago and the girlfriend and we met this guy at Hog's Breath and he gave us his business card. It said something along the lines of "Vice President of Engineering for Mechanical Services". It didn't say PE, I said have you taken the PE? He said, "What's that?". I mean really, I have come across my share of Iron Workers telling me that they are structural engineers and it urks me to the core. But when this guy advertises himself as the VP of engineering and didn't know what the PE was.... This is a whole new level. I nearly lost it and had we had to leave.

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Make a copy of the card and send it to the state board. Let them educate him on what an engineer really is. This costs nothing, is totally anonoymous and you feel good about what you did.

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Funny, I was down in Key West a few weeks ago and the girlfriend and we met this guy at Hog's Breath and he gave us his business card. It said something along the lines of "Vice President of Engineering for Mechanical Services". It didn't say PE, I said have you taken the PE? He said, "What's that?". I mean really, I have come across my share of Iron Workers telling me that they are structural engineers and it urks me to the core. But when this guy advertises himself as the VP of engineering and didn't know what the PE was.... This is a whole new level. I nearly lost it and had we had to leave.

There's a lot of industries where one can be an engineer without a license. Aerospace and heavy trucks are the ones I have personal experience with. Ask folks in those industries about a PE and you'll either get a blank stare or a response that the license is mostly pointless. I'd guess that of all the people I've worked with over a dozen years, maybe 5%, tops, have a license. I'm only getting mine because for some reason upper management thinks it's a good idea in spite of the fact that I have ZERO expectation of ever actually using my stamp during the course of my job.

My feeling is, if you have a degree in engineering and are doing engineering work then you are just as much of an engineer as someone that's taken the time to pass some test. At least right now there's no legal bar against doing engineering work (at least in certain industries) or calling yourself an engineer or being the VP of engineering at some company without a license. Unless there's more info you're not sharing I'd calm down a bit about all that.

My BIL is now working in some control room for a cable TV company and seems to think that makes him an engineer (it's in the job title). He's never been to college, couldn't solve an engineering problem if his life depended on it, etc. Calling him an "engineer" is about as accurate as calling a garbage collector a "sanitation engineer". It's got more to do with PC and making people feel good about themselves. I'll roll my eyes, but I'm not about to take that up with my state board.

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Sumpnz-- The point that marks distinction is the fact that many state boards do NOT allow you to define yourself as an engineer unless you have passed the state mandated PE examination. The fact that you are an engineer and have taken all of the classes and have a degree from an ABET accredited institution makes you an engineer. I will not argue with that. The point of argument is that many states have defined, in state code and statute that one can hold him/herself out to be an engineer UNLESS they have successfully passed the FE and PE examination. Now, to argue the merits of the point is without basis-- that is how many state statutes are written. I don't know if that is so in the "Model State Statute", however, I would suspect that to be the case.

PC aside, many and I suspect most, if not all, states require you to have passed the PE examination in order to be full recognized as an ENGINEER, at least by the state. Job protection, job security, protection of licensees-- these are all questions that one could and should ask if he/she wants to explore this question.

From my experience, the more that I work with licensing, is that the license assures the public that you have indeed passed a minimum set of competencies, have some general understanding of the public safety and welfare, and that you perform your practice to a set of perscribed standards. (Those standards are the canons of the Professional Engineer). Rightly or wrongly, I think that is the crux of the argument in this matter.

Perhaps I am wrong or see the world skewed? If so, I am all ears!

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The way I understand the Professional Engineers Act in California is that there are no restrictions for the use of "Engineer" as you guys keep referring to. http://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/licensees/pe_act.pdf See section 6732, page 10. Unless I am missing it, there is no mention that the use of the term "Engineer" is restricted to only those who are licensed. It does, however, specifically state it is unlawful to use the term Registered Engineer, Mechanical Engineer, Civil Engineer, etc., etc. Maybe other states are different?

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The California statue is more specific than many states. Section 6732 of the California Professional Engineers Act is much more descriptive than many other states. In many states, the simple use of the term "Engineer" is prohibited if not licensed as a licensed/registered professional engineer.in that specific state. Appears that California is different in that regard than many other states.

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The California statue is more specific than many states. Section 6732 of the California Professional Engineers Act is much more descriptive than many other states. In many states, the simple use of the term "Engineer" is prohibited if not licensed as a licensed/registered professional engineer.in that specific state. Appears that California is different in that regard than many other states.

I believe you solo but, just to satisfy my curiosity, could you link me to a State Board's Engineer's Act forbidding the use of "Engineer" if not licensed? Thanks.

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This is a very gray area and I am glad that I get to read differing opinions on it too. I am an EIT but when I applied for my mortgage, I used Civil Engineer as my occupation - if I wrote Engineer-In-Training they would probably start asking questions. Unfortunately like it has been stated before, EIT makes it sound like I wear diapers and need my and held for every step of the process....regardless, I still tell people what I am when they ask; if anything it opens an opportunity for some conversation regarding the steps to become a true PE and how far I have actually come.

I do get a bit offended when people who never took all the classes and exams proudly call themselves an "engineer" - my father-in-law is one of them. He does building maintenance and is dubbed an engineer by everyone he works with...it has to do with the "politically correct" nature of the term, it makes everyone feel better about themselves, except a registered engineer.

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My other pet peeve (besides the one in this post) is South Dakota State alum who think they have a prayer at 3:00 PM on Saturday, Dec. 1st in Fargo. :)

Ok, all jokes aside... My wife's cousin calls herself an engineer. I got crabby with my sister-in-law once about their cousing saying "oh, I'm an engineer" The sister-in-law said "Well, she is only like one semester from getting that degree, she just changed her mind later" I said "so... no degree... thats like me saying I'm a Medical Dr. because I took a year of med school" She didnt' seem to find the humor....

I think the problem is the state(s) don't harp real hard on the use of the title unless it will be used "for hire" The consulting firms in ND are careful how they use the term, but other (exempt) industries are not. Same laws apply, so I'd like to see the state going and hammering on those companies for thinking they can title their positions as "engineers" when in fact they are not.

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