Masters with no Bachelors

I have a question I hope one of you may be able to answer, because I'm in a bit of a fix. I graduated with a BA in Political Science in 1993. After getting involved in the water and wastewater business, a degree in engineering became one of my future goals. When I found out that a program was offered online, it really peaked my interest. It was the Masters program, but I was told that I would qualify for it if I took some prerequisite coursework. I assumed (please don't say it) that the prerequisite coursework was the equivalent of the undergrade requirements for an engineering degree. I was required to take 12 credits... fundamentals, calc, diff eq and hydraulics.

Today I checked into applying for the EIT exam in NJ, and I was told the minimum qualification is a undergrad degree and that there are no exceptions given. My first thought is what the heck do I do? I never heard of anyone taking an undergrad program AFTER they completed the masters curriculum. Any help or advice that any of you could give me would be greatly appreciated. If I knew that the undergrad degree was specifically required, I would have opted for that locally instead... but hindsight is 20/20 of course. The second question is have any of you ever heard of someone getting a masters WITHOUT a bachelors in engineering? My major concern is what the degree is now worth in the eyes of the industry. I know there are plenty of engineers out there that don't have the PE, but does my degree qualify me as an "engineer" now? I hope you understand my concern. Again, any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you

flocyoulater said:

The second question is have any of you ever heard of someone getting a masters WITHOUT a bachelors in engineering? My major concern is what the degree is now worth in the eyes of the industry. I know there are plenty of engineers out there that don't have the PE, but does my degree qualify me as an "engineer" now? I hope you understand my concern. Again, any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you

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First of all, this sounds weird. In my state, I think kids take the EIT before they even graduate with any degree. So try a nearby state.

As far as the degree - I don't think the issue is whether you have a Bachelors in engineering or not. A lot of people have bachelors in other things then go on to get engineering masters. Although usually those other things are technical - like physics or math. But I digress.

The thing that really matters is the accreditation of the program you took - or more specifically the accreditation of the school. This looks suspect because you got the degree online, which may be fine at some schools but not others.

If the school where you got the masters has an undergraduate school, and if that undergraduate school is ABET accredited, then not only should your masters be okay, you should be able to find someplace to get your PE.

Different states have different requirements to be able to take the FE, but the few states I looked at around NJ have similiar requirements. You may be able to find a state that would allow you to take the FE, and then the apply to take the PE in NJ, but NJ may not accept it since you don't meet NJ's requirements for the FE. You can also find a state that will waive the FE based on experience, then take the PE, but you wouldn't be able to get reciprocity in NJ since you didn't take the FE.

I know these aren't solutions to your problem, but maybe talking to the NJ board can help? Worst case, you may have to complete enough credits to get a BS in engineering. At least you have some of them completed! Good luck.

Yes, the school has an undergrad program in engineering and is accredited. I checked that before I took the program. It's also one of the oldest engineering schools in the country.

flocyoulater said:

Yes, the school has an undergrad program in engineering and is accredited. I checked that before I took the program. It's also one of the oldest engineering schools in the country.

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If the undergrad program is ABET accredited then you should certainly be able to take the EIT and PE someplace. At least that's what I always thought, although I guess I could be completely wrong.

Here are the requirements from the California website. It's not 100% clear, but it looks like you would qualify in CA by work experience anyway-

EIT applicants must have completed:Three years of course work in a Board-approved engineering curriculum (any curriculum approved by the Engineering Accreditation Commission [EAC] of the Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology [ABET]). (Foreign degrees are not ABET accredited unless they are from Canada. If you have a degree in Canada, please check on its accreditation.)

OR

Three years or more of engineering-related work experience anywhere in the world.

AND

Never have been convicted of a crime substantially related to the practice of engineering.

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flocyoulater said:

Yes, the school has an undergrad program in engineering and is accredited. I checked that before I took the program. It's also one of the oldest engineering schools in the country.

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Engieering Schools choose the level at which they wish to be accredited. In other words, programs get accredited, not departments. For example, if a particular school of engineering has programs at B.S. , M.S. and Ph.D. levels and they don't particularly care about being accredited at the graduate level (this is quite typical), they ELECT to be accredited for their undergraduate PROGRAM. When ABET visits them, ABET doesn't even care what (and how) this school is doing at the graduate level. So, the undergrad program being accredited DOES NOT say anything (officially) about the gradulate program. When your state board evaluates your credentials to take the FE exam, they are looking for a certain minimum amount of course work in engineering and related subjects. If you have an undergrad degree from an ABET accredited program, you are allowed to fill the short form. If not, you are required to provided details of your relevant coursework. But if there is not enough relevant coursework, then what NJ board has told you does not surprise me.

Here in Colorado, I worked with a guy who was able to take the EIT & PE without an engineering degree. All he needed was a math degree and (8) years of on the job experience. It irked (SP?) me at the time because the state was forcing me to obtain (6) years of qualified experience even though I had a BSEET (ABET accredited). Anyway, you should be able to take the EIT in NJ. Get on the State website and lookup the requirements for yourself if you haven't already done so. It should be posted..

Good Luck

An M.S. is what... a couple of years at most? You can't compare that to four years of work preparing for a B.S. So just because you got a Masters at a school that's accredited for a Bachelors does *not* mean that your study is equivalent to the four years B.S.

If a Masters always trumped a Bachelors, you'd have the case where a non-accredited Bachelors could be followed up with a quick Masters. That wouldn't be fair, would it?

Yes, a Masters is two years... 36 credits. But I also took 4 prerequisite graduate classes to qualify for the Masters program. That's an additional 12 credits at the 500 level. Calculus I, II and III refresher, differential equations and linear algebra, hydraulics, and fundamentals of environmental engineering. The last one is a combination of chemistry, physics and general engineering. Granted, an undergrad degree is a lot of work, but two of the four years cover all of the general education requirements. The remaining two years are degree courses and degree free electives. Prior to switching majors I was a computer science major, so I has Calculus I and II, Stats, Chemistry, Physics and so on. Trust me, I'm not downplaying an undergraduate degree at all... it's just that ANY BS or BA only has about 32 to 36 credits of core courses. To say that 36 Master's credits plus 12 500 level prerequisites is no big deal... that I don't necessarily agree with. I was looking for assistance, not value judgements.

flocyoulater said:

That's an additional 12 credits at the 500 level. Calculus I, II and III refresher, differential equations and linear algebra,

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I take issue with this part. Calc 1, 2, 3, and LinAlg were freshman level courses (i.e. 100 level) for my undergraduate curriculum. I don't know what engineering program would consider basic courses like that 500 level.

I give up. This is just stone throwing now. If you took Calc I,II,III, Stats, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations ALL in your freshman year... God bless you. The 500 level courses were all based on having overall knowledge of the subjects in the first place. If you didn't know what you were doing you failed... and trust me, several individuals did just that.

flocyoulater said:

I give up. This is just stone throwing now. If you took Calc I,II,III, Stats, Linear Algebra and Differential Equations ALL in your freshman year... God bless you. The 500 level courses were all based on having overall knowledge of the subjects in the first place. If you didn't know what you were doing you failed... and trust me, several individuals did just that.

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I'm not throwing stones, just telling you that basic math classes aren't 500 level courses. And in engineering, Calculus is basic math. I actually took Calc 1, 2, and 3 in 5 weeks before my freshman year started. It was about 50 or 60 hours per week of Calculus...it was miserable, but got me 15 credits ahead before I even started. Then, once my freshman year started, I took LinAlg, and DiffEQ 1 and 2.

To answer your original question, I don't think that a Masters degree adequately prepares you to become an EIT. It appears that the NJ board agrees with me. I also have no problem with people that have no engineering degree, and/or an engineering technology degree, but I do believe that they should have to accumulate more experience before sitting for the exams. Most licensure boards agree with me on that point too.

And what would constitute experience? As an example... 21 years in the water and wastewater field, with 10 of those in direct supervision of large design projects? Going over plans and designs with a fine tooth comb that are submitted by our consulting engineering firm, but need to be sent back time and time again for careless errors before the project can even start? And these are LARGE engineering firms, and PE's to boot.

I'm not looking for a quarrel here, or looking to see who took what math class first. The point is, most of the equivalent coursework was taken... period. There are very good engineers out there... extremely intelligent engineers. But there are some PE's out there who's work leaves a bit to be desired. I happen to see a few in action every day. I agree 100% about experience. The other thing is that this is the EIT, not the PE. "Engineer-in-Training" or "Fundamentals of Engineering". Shouldn't passing the exam be proof enough of the basic knowledge, as long as the equivalency is there?

It sounds like you do have the necessary experience to sit for both the FE and PE exams. I guess New Jersey doesn't have a provision for allowing people to skip the accredited degree. You will likely be able to sit for the exams in another state, but you may never gain licensure in New Jersey. It really is up to the whim of the state board.

I think you are running into resistance with your argument here because you are trying to equate a 36 credit hour Masters and 12 credit hours of pre-reqs to a 130+ hour BS engineering degree.

flocyoulater said:

it's just that ANY BS or BA only has about 32 to 36 credits of core courses.

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Also, this statement doesn't make any sense given your request. You are trying to take the fundamentals of engineering exam, which would be testing the other 100 or so credit hours of an engineering education, if we are to use your figure of 32 to 36 hours of core courses. Since you lack most of those credits, why are you so adamant that you are entitled to sit for this exam?

I'm not trying to be adamant. I am a little frustrated, and I do feel that I have the general qualifications. When I was referring to the undergrad credits I was implying about the freshman comp, literature, etc that all undergrads take. Unless there aren't any in an engineering undergrad, in which I may be mistaken. I'm only looking for suggestions, or experience of any cases similar to my own. I really never heard of someone getting a masters and then going back to get the undergrad degree, have you? I did research this, and considered the undergrad degree in the first place. I just thought the prerequisites and credit given for my undergrad coursework seemed equivalent for qualifying for the masters. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I'm looking to see what my options are with what I have now... that's all.

flocyoulater said:

I'm not trying to be adamant. I am a little frustrated, and I do feel that I have the general qualifications. When I was referring to the undergrad credits I was implying about the freshman comp, literature, etc that all undergrads take. Unless there aren't any in an engineering undergrad, in which I may be mistaken. I'm only looking for suggestions, or experience of any cases similar to my own. I really never heard of someone getting a masters and then going back to get the undergrad degree, have you? I did research this, and considered the undergrad degree in the first place. I just thought the prerequisites and credit given for my undergrad coursework seemed equivalent for qualifying for the masters. Perhaps I was mistaken, but I'm looking to see what my options are with what I have now... that's all.

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I don't doubt there's lots of equivalency... but state boards don't want to be in the business of judging what is or is not equivalent. The "education, experience, examination" model works extremely well and there are some states that let you substitute one to make up for lack in another (e.g. experience for education). But it does little good to discuss it *here* - the only thing that matters is what a particular board is willing to do.

Accredited degrees are extremely important, otherwise we'd have cut-rate schools letting people buy degrees online... and they'd go on to be registered engineers if they could fabricate some experience (the easiest of the three requirements to obtain) and were good at taking multiple choice exams.

In hindsight (I know... that doesn't do you any good - but maybe it'll help someone else) you should have gone to a school that would give you an accredited BS. Or you could have gotten a Masters at a school that has accredited BSs and was willing to give you both. If you're looking for options, I'd suggest finding an accredited BS program that's willing to give you credit for your undergrad and grad work already done. Have you looked into this?

flocyoulater said:

The other thing is that this is the EIT, not the PE. "Engineer-in-Training" or "Fundamentals of Engineering". Shouldn't passing the exam be proof enough of the basic knowledge, as long as the equivalency is there?

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No... education and examination are two *very* different things. You can't "test out" for an Engineering degree - there's lots more to an accredited program than passing exams. I've learned many things from my undergraduate studies that weren't tested on an exam which are important to my abilities as an engineer.

As an example... 21 years in the water and wastewater field, with 10 of those in direct supervision of large design projects?

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Like I think I wrote earlier, in my state I believe this alone would qualify you for the EIT and the PE. I know other states are different.

My major concern is what the degree is now worth in the eyes of the industry. I know there are plenty of engineers out there that don't have the PE, but does my degree qualify me as an "engineer" now? I hope you understand my concern. Again, any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Setting aside the PE, which may be a legal requirement for some jobs. And setting aside some jobs, such as government, which have specific requirements for degrees. If your experience is as it seems, I don't think you should have any trouble getting employment, and at a fairly high level. As someone who hired on frequent occasions in my past life , experience generally trumps degree at this pioint in a person's career. Although, like all things, it depends on the competition.

If you are going up against somebody with equal experience and a BS with no MS, I think you're in the running. If you are up against somebody with the same experience, a BS, and an MS, you may be at a slight disadvantage, which you'll have to overcome in the interview or by some other means (I'm sure I'm not telling you anything new here).

/inside joke

And if you can work a simple first order DE using an integrating factor, you are by definition performing advanced engineering mathematics, according to rppearso.

wilheldp_PE said:

I'm not throwing stones, just telling you that basic math classes aren't 500 level courses. And in engineering, Calculus is basic math. I actually took Calc 1, 2, and 3 in 5 weeks before my freshman year started. It was about 50 or 60 hours per week of Calculus...it was miserable, but got me 15 credits ahead before I even started. Then, once my freshman year started, I took LinAlg, and DiffEQ 1 and 2.

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Darn!!!!!!!!! That explains everything.

Dark Knight said:

wilheldp_PE said:

I'm not throwing stones, just telling you that basic math classes aren't 500 level courses. And in engineering, Calculus is basic math. I actually took Calc 1, 2, and 3 in 5 weeks before my freshman year started. It was about 50 or 60 hours per week of Calculus...it was miserable, but got me 15 credits ahead before I even started. Then, once my freshman year started, I took LinAlg, and DiffEQ 1 and 2.

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Darn!!!!!!!!! That explains everything.

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Perhaps it was just at my school...but calc III was a two hundred level class taken in the first semester of your sophmore year.... or your freshman year if you had taken AP calc in high school. I always thought basic math was adding, subtracting, long division if you want to get a little advanced.....I like this thread