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#1 cjdecuir

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:19 PM

Anyone think it would be worth getting my test rescored. 50/80

#2 wilheldp_PE

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:40 PM

QUOTE (cjdecuir @ Dec 17 2008, 12:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Anyone think it would be worth getting my test rescored. 50/80

I think what may have caused your failing score was the sub-50% on the afternoon portion (18/40 if I remember correctly). Then again, nobody really knows any/all of the criteria for passing the PE. It costs money to have your exam rescored, so if you are willing to take the chance, go ahead.

#3 roadwreck

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:43 PM

I'm not sure what discipline you took the exam in, I'm assuming the cut score must vary for each, but I've seen failing scores that were 55/80 before. Based on that I don't know that a 50/80 would hold up.

I'm not suggesting you don't pursue a rescore if you really feel strongly about it, i just wanted to mention that I've heard of higher failing scores.

#4 ROBIAMEIT

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:49 PM

QUOTE (roadwreck @ Dec 17 2008, 05:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not sure what discipline you took the exam in, I'm assuming the cut score must vary for each, but I've seen failing scores that were 55/80 before. Based on that I don't know that a 50/80 would hold up.

I'm not suggesting you don't pursue a rescore if you really feel strongly about it, i just wanted to mention that I've heard of higher failing scores.


I failed last fall with a 55/80 . . .

AND NO!! . . . . dont pay to get your exam re-scored!!! . . . .i checked into this last Fall with my 55/80 score!! that comes out to approx. score of 69% ~ if they round up the way we were TAUGHT to do it . . . .

THEY told me all they would do is re-run your scoring card through the computer and check the card to make sure no debris or any foriegn particles were on it to screw up the scan. They DONT check your written work in your test booklet . . . so even if you can say AND PROVE BY YOUR WORK "I GOT THE RIGHT ANWSER AND JUST TRANSFERED IT WORNG" it still doesnt matter.

it would be a waste of money

i think

#5 pinkpig

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 05:57 PM

QUOTE (ROBIAMEIT @ Dec 17 2008, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I failed last fall with a 55/80 . . .

AND NO!! . . . . dont pay to get your exam re-scored!!! . . . .i checked into this last Fall with my 55/80 score!! that comes out to approx. score of 69% ~ if they round up the way we were TAUGHT to do it . . . .

THEY told me all they would do is re-run your scoring card through the computer and check the card to make sure no debris or any foriegn particles were on it to screw up the scan. They DONT check your written work in your test booklet . . . so even if you can say AND PROVE BY YOUR WORK "I GOT THE RIGHT ANWSER AND JUST TRANSFERED IT WORNG" it still doesnt matter.

it would be a waste of money

i think


How did you guys get your scores? NCEES PDF thru email only tells fail or pass.


#6 OSUguy98

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:00 PM

QUOTE (roadwreck @ Dec 17 2008, 12:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm not sure what discipline you took the exam in, I'm assuming the cut score must vary for each, but I've seen failing scores that were 55/80 before. Based on that I don't know that a 50/80 would hold up.

I'm not suggesting you don't pursue a rescore if you really feel strongly about it, i just wanted to mention that I've heard of higher failing scores.


I failed the April Civil (depth-Trans.) with a score of 53/80 (in :wv:).... I assumed the cut score to be 56/80... Hopefully, I'll get a pass this time

#7 wilheldp_PE

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:10 PM

QUOTE (pinkpig @ Dec 17 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How did you guys get your scores? NCEES PDF thru email only tells fail or pass.

If you fail, you get a score report telling you what percentage you got right in each category. You can use that information plus the approximate question distribution in the ERMs to figure out how many you got right. It's probably not exact, but better than nothing.

If you pass, you just get a pass letter.

I was thinking that the cut scores in years past were in the 46/80 range instead of the 56/80 range. My bad.

#8 tdurak

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:49 PM

I think some states are required to provide the results rather than a pass/fail response due to their regulations. I know Virginia is one that will tell you your overall score regardless of passing or failing

#9 Vishal

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:52 PM

Just a word of caution to all those throwing their scores out there. Remember, that in calculating your "raw score" you are assuming that ALL the questions appearing on the test were considered for grading. This is hardly true as there are questions that are just taken out of consideration. So to think that your %'s on the letter is out of 80 questions may not be completely correct.

Also, 56/80 = 70% = passing score of 70 is a MYTH. There is no such thing as 70%. The raw score required to pass is different with each test administration. On one test a raw score of 51 could be enough and on another test a raw score of 54 may not be enough. Again, we can not even assume that these scores are out of 80!!

So let's not get too deep into this mythical world. I and others have repeated this several times on this board, but the myth of 56/80 = 70% = passing score of 70 doesn't seem to die anytime soon.

To the OP,

If you wish to go ahead with re-evaluation then go ahead, but I am yet to hear a score/result being overturned. Don't lose heart over this.. try harder in April and success will be yours.

#10 weeze

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 06:56 PM

No, don't bother. From what I was told by the KY Board, your scoring is addivtive such that you can't be failed by simply getting a zero in any category (unless your overall percentage isn't enough to pass you) and it doesn't matter if you score less than a passing percent in the afternoon. It's totally not worth going through the trouble and I've heard that they seldom change scores for what it's worth.

#11 IlPadrino

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Posted 17 December 2008 - 10:28 PM

QUOTE (Vishal @ Dec 17 2008, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So let's not get too deep into this mythical world. I and others have repeated this several times on this board, but the myth of 56/80 = 70% = passing score of 70 doesn't seem to die anytime soon.


And yet, when the diagnostics come out it has generally been a raw score of 70% that is the line in the sand. Has anyone shown a diagnostic that indicates a significant difference?

#12 rudy

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Posted 20 December 2008 - 07:20 AM

I wondered about this when I got a 69 (Texas reports score) on my 2nd try, especially since I was so close. I have never heard of NCEES changing scores after "rescoring." Instead of using my money for rescoring, I used it to buy more study materials. Ended up passing on my 3rd try. Good luck to you on whatever you decide.

#13 Clarke

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (Vishal @ Dec 17 2008, 01:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Just a word of caution to all those throwing their scores out there. Remember, that in calculating your "raw score" you are assuming that ALL the questions appearing on the test were considered for grading. This is hardly true as there are questions that are just taken out of consideration. So to think that your %'s on the letter is out of 80 questions may not be completely correct.

Also, 56/80 = 70% = passing score of 70 is a MYTH. There is no such thing as 70%. The raw score required to pass is different with each test administration. On one test a raw score of 51 could be enough and on another test a raw score of 54 may not be enough. Again, we can not even assume that these scores are out of 80!!

So let's not get too deep into this mythical world. I and others have repeated this several times on this board, but the myth of 56/80 = 70% = passing score of 70 doesn't seem to die anytime soon.

To the OP,

If you wish to go ahead with re-evaluation then go ahead, but I am yet to hear a score/result being overturned. Don't lose heart over this.. try harder in April and success will be yours.


I always thought the raw score of 54 or 55 was the magic number....I got a 51 in October 07 and a 53 last April....both were, obviously, failures.

#14 IlPadrino

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 12:05 PM

QUOTE (Clarke @ Dec 21 2008, 08:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I always thought the raw score of 54 or 55 was the magic number....I got a 51 in October 07 and a 53 last April....both were, obviously, failures.


While there is NO ONE MAGIC NUMBER, about 70% of the questions is pretty close to magic, especially give or take a few. The diagnostics and raw scores support this. I recall some people reporting a 55 and fail. It stands to reason a question or two are thrown out but there's nothing I've seen to show a 54 and pass.

#15 Dark Knight

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 12:53 PM

QUOTE (IlPadrino @ Dec 22 2008, 07:05 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
While there is NO ONE MAGIC NUMBER, about 70% of the questions is pretty close to magic, especially give or take a few. The diagnostics and raw scores support this. I recall some people reporting a 55 and fail. It stands to reason a question or two are thrown out but there's nothing I've seen to show a 54 and pass.


As I said in another thread, the cut score is the closest thing to dark magic in the world. No one knows for sure. There is no pattern, there is no trend. 55 will get you a pass this time and 56 will leave someone else hanging next time. true.gif

I realized, after years trying to understand it, that there are better ways to use my time, like spamming here at EB...bio.gif

#16 noleengineer

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:20 PM

They normally use a statistical technique known as EQUATING to determine who has passed and who has failed. saying 55/80 is the cutting score is wrong and a big mistake as the this cutting score is determined by the them after doing that exam and see the level of difficulty.
The thing is some people mess with one thing, the exams are normally simple than what we are prepared for. The type of questions asked has been changed in the past decade and authors of study materials still use the previous format to design their study problems. I would advise any new taker or retakers to consider the NCEES sample examination questions format rather than 6-minute solutions or questions in the CERM and the like to prepare for this exam. You gotta understand the principles of engineering rather than cracking down hard questions which takes more than 4 minutes to answer. I still believe that the FE exam is way up harder than PE exam, and if at all you've passed the FE, PE would be very very easy to pass, believe me or not.
P'se instead of finding the magic number which you will never know it at least for now, use that time to understand principles of engineering....that's my thought and experience of doing FE and PE!

#17 Mike in Gastonia

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 01:39 PM

QUOTE (noleengineer @ Dec 22 2008, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
They normally use a statistical technique known as EQUATING to determine who has passed and who has failed. saying 55/80 is the cutting score is wrong and a big mistake as the this cutting score is determined by the them after doing that exam and see the level of difficulty.
The thing is some people mess with one thing, the exams are normally simple than what we are prepared for. The type of questions asked has been changed in the past decade and authors of study materials still use the previous format to design their study problems. I would advise any new taker or retakers to consider the NCEES sample examination questions format rather than 6-minute solutions or questions in the CERM and the like to prepare for this exam. You gotta understand the principles of engineering rather than cracking down hard questions which takes more than 4 minutes to answer. I still believe that the FE exam is way up harder than PE exam, and if at all you've passed the FE, PE would be very very easy to pass, believe me or not.
P'se instead of finding the magic number which you will never know it at least for now, use that time to understand principles of engineering....that's my thought and experience of doing FE and PE!



^^^ Good post!

Along the same line, the other thread talking about the highest score is meaningless. One point above the passing score is the same as getting all of them right. The questions aren't designed to figure out who the smartest engineer is - they're not those type of questions. They're designed to make sure you meet the minimum level.

#18 chaocl

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 02:33 PM

Do not waste your money on rescoring! I think there are three options that you can choose (I took my FE test in NY) that (1) Review (2) Rescore (3) Review and Rescore

I forgot which one is which but you can ask people from states board. I think one is rescan your answer sheet but NO way to change from fail to pass score; one is hand check your answer sheet but No way to change from fail to pass score; and one is hand score that also review the test to see can it change from fail to pass score (but however you can not attend next test, which if you took in Oct. that you can not sit for the April one next year!)

Edited by chaocl, 22 December 2008 - 02:34 PM.


#19 IlPadrino

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 07:56 PM

QUOTE (Dark Knight @ Dec 22 2008, 07:53 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As I said in another thread, the cut score is the closest thing to dark magic in the world. No one knows for sure. There is no pattern, there is no trend. 55 will get you a pass this time and 56 will leave someone else hanging next time. true.gif

I realized, after years trying to understand it, that there are better ways to use my time, like spamming here at EB...bio.gif


OK... it's clear you're a disciple of the black magic. But not everyone drinks that cool aid. I'm more of a wine guy. I'm as equally sure the cut score is around 70%, give or take a couple of questions. There is certainly a clear trend in this regard: do you know of anyone who got a cut score of anything significantly above 70 that failed or significantly below 70 that passed? For the sake of argument, let's define significant as more than two questions.

If only someone would take the time to collect the scores directly reported or derived from the diagnostics and we'd know for sure!

#20 Dark Knight

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Posted 22 December 2008 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE (IlPadrino @ Dec 22 2008, 02:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
OK... it's clear you're a disciple of the black magic. But not everyone drinks that cool aid. I'm more of a wine guy. I'm as equally sure the cut score is around 70%, give or take a couple of questions. There is certainly a clear trend in this regard: do you know of anyone who got a cut score of anything significantly above 70 that failed or significantly below 70 that passed? For the sake of argument, let's define significant as more than two questions.

If only someone would take the time to collect the scores directly reported or derived from the diagnostics and we'd know for sure!


The thing is that you have diagnostic scores when you fail but when you pass you only get the congratulations. There is no way to know what did you do right. The diagnostic gives you percentages and unless you perform a McKeon and remember all the question on the test...How do you know?

The first time I failed did not come anywhere near 60%( based on the number of questions and the ones I think I got right by on the diagnostic). The second time I was very close to the arithmetic 70%. As a matter of fact it was hard to take for me. Again...that was based on the diagnostic.

Besides that...I did not say black magic. I said dark magic.....dark as vadar.gif

#21 IlPadrino

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 01:21 PM

QUOTE (Dark Knight @ Dec 22 2008, 03:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The thing is that you have diagnostic scores when you fail but when you pass you only get the congratulations. There is no way to know what did you do right. The diagnostic gives you percentages and unless you perform a McKeon and remember all the question on the test...How do you know?

The first time I failed did not come anywhere near 60%( based on the number of questions and the ones I think I got right by on the diagnostic). The second time I was very close to the arithmetic 70%. As a matter of fact it was hard to take for me. Again...that was based on the diagnostic.

Besides that...I did not say black magic. I said dark magic.....dark as vadar.gif


Ohhh..... DARK magic says the DARK Knight. Got it!

You can work backwards from the diagnostic and the expected distribution of questions to get a very good indication of how many you got right.

The scores are normally distributed - it doesn't matter that we only have the left (fail) side of the curve.

#22 IlPadrino

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 01:22 PM

QUOTE (noleengineer @ Dec 22 2008, 08:20 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
this cutting score is determined by the them after doing that exam and see the level of difficulty.


Do you have *ANY* evidence of this? I think you're wrong.

#23 Dark Knight

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 01:32 PM

QUOTE (IlPadrino @ Dec 23 2008, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you have *ANY* evidence of this? I think you're wrong.


You have good points Sray, but I think we are deadhorse.gif

Here is the challenge, not for you, for anyone who passed. Can you tell with a 99% level of accuracy how many questions you had right? TMcK, if you are reading this help us out. I know you remember the 80 questions of your test. 17.gif

I remember a member who based on his diagnostic had 56 right answers and failed. He was/is a Civil Trasnpo. My second try I got 52 right answers...again...based on the diagnostic. Failed.gif that time.

Seriously...I do not think anyone outside NCEES can explain the logic of the cut score. As I said...it is dark magic. vadar.gif

#24 Mike in Gastonia

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 01:45 PM

QUOTE (IlPadrino @ Dec 23 2008, 08:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you have *ANY* evidence of this? I think you're wrong.


From the ncees website:

QUOTE
The goal of equating is to ensure that an examinee's chances of passing remain constant regardless of the particular administration of the exam that was taken. Put another way, this means that an examinee is not penalized if the exam taken is more difficult than usual. If the exam is more difficult than usual, fewer questions must be answered correctly to achieve a passing score.


I read this to mean that do an analysis to compare this exam's takers' intelligence to the previous ones and then compare how they did on their respective exams. If the groups are about the same, intelligence wise, and the second group did worse on their exam, they lower the pass score. Or if the second group did better, they raise it.


#25 VTEnviro

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:09 PM

Thanks as always for the sagely wisdom MIG.

#26 Jennifer

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:11 PM

If it helps...Last time, I figured my cut score from my diagonastic report to be around 58% and my score was a 66%...I think this probably varies by discipline and exam administration, though. That was for structural 1

#27 Vishal

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:23 PM

When I said that 70% is not equal to passing and is not equal to 56 questions out of 80, I mean that in your backwards calculation theory you are "assuming" that all the questions have been considered to achieve the final score. This is too much to assume. Your 70% cut score theory (even with considering 'significant difference') is still based on all the questions being taken into consideration.

How do you know that from which section how many questions were discounted? In Civil AM, you have 8 questions on 5 subjects. Say only 4 questions from Construction were accounted in the final score and in the diagnostic you are told that you scored 50%. So by your calculation you got 4 questions correct whereas in "reality" it is only 2. There you go... the significant difference you defined as 2 questions.

Please tell me if I am wrong, or you have some other ideas.

Also, not to forget that there are other disciplines that may have different cut scores and different distribution of questions. It is just too variable to be able to come to a definitive answer or even in a range.

#28 Mike in Gastonia

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 02:37 PM

QUOTE (Vishal @ Dec 23 2008, 09:23 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When I said that 70% is not equal to passing and is not equal to 56 questions out of 80, I mean that in your backwards calculation theory you are "assuming" that all the questions have been considered to achieve the final score. This is too much to assume. Your 70% cut score theory (even with considering 'significant difference') is still based on all the questions being taken into consideration.

How do you know that from which section how many questions were discounted? In Civil AM, you have 8 questions on 5 subjects. Say only 4 questions from Construction were accounted in the final score and in the diagnostic you are told that you scored 50%. So by your calculation you got 4 questions correct whereas in "reality" it is only 2. There you go... the significant difference you defined as 2 questions.

Please tell me if I am wrong, or you have some other ideas.

Also, not to forget that there are other disciplines that may have different cut scores and different distribution of questions. It is just too variable to be able to come to a definitive answer or even in a range.


I think the "discounting" of questions is one of those urban legends. Why would they discount it? they say they don't have a "curve". If they go through and analyze them and find that there is an error and two answers could be considered correct, wouldn't they just give credit to everyone who selected one of those two answers? I guess if they had one that was just wrong, they would give everyone credit, which I guess is the same as throwing it out.


#29 Vishal

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 03:33 PM

QUOTE (Mike in Gastonia @ Dec 23 2008, 09:37 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think the "discounting" of questions is one of those urban legends. Why would they discount it? they say they don't have a "curve". If they go through and analyze them and find that there is an error and two answers could be considered correct, wouldn't they just give credit to everyone who selected one of those two answers? I guess if they had one that was just wrong, they would give everyone credit, which I guess is the same as throwing it out.

The discounting of the questions happens when there is insufficient data or ambiguity involved or if there is some out of whack question. If there are two possible answers then I would rather have them discount the question than give the credit to everyone since in giving the credit to everyone those who guessed on that question will benefit where in that is not desirable for the integrity of the test and also for the public safety.










Just fellt like using heavy words.... but seriously I would still have the questions taken out of consideration than giving mass credit.

#30 Jennifer

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 04:12 PM

http://www.ncees.org...ring_method.php



#31 mudpuppy

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 04:47 PM

QUOTE (IlPadrino @ Dec 23 2008, 08:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The scores are normally distributed - it doesn't matter that we only have the left (fail) side of the curve.


That's an interesting assumption. How do you know the scores are normally distributed?



#32 IlPadrino

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 07:31 PM

QUOTE (mudpuppy @ Dec 23 2008, 11:47 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That's an interesting assumption. How do you know the scores are normally distributed?


The Law of Large Numbers and the Central Limit Theorem require them to be...

#33 IlPadrino

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Posted 23 December 2008 - 07:36 PM

QUOTE (Mike in Gastonia @ Dec 23 2008, 08:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
From the ncees website:



I read this to mean that do an analysis to compare this exam's takers' intelligence to the previous ones and then compare how they did on their respective exams. If the groups are about the same, intelligence wise, and the second group did worse on their exam, they lower the pass score. Or if the second group did better, they raise it.


And also from the same website:
QUOTE
Are the exams graded on a curve? Is there a target pass rate?
No. NCEES scores each exam based on its own merits with no regard for a predetermined percentage of examinees that should pass or fail. All exams are scored the same way.


So how does this balance with

QUOTE
For subsequent administrations, the same passing standard is preserved using a statistical technique known as equating. This technique is widely used by testing experts for occupational licensing exams. The goal of equating is to ensure that an examinee's chances of passing remain constant regardless of the particular administration of the exam that was taken. Put another way, this means that an examinee is not penalized if the exam taken is more difficult than usual. If the exam is more difficult than usual, fewer questions must be answered correctly to achieve a passing score.


Also,
QUOTE
Using a process that is widely accepted in the testing profession, the committee assesses the examination performance that may be expected of a minimally competent examinee. After the NCEES examination committee reviews the committee's work for reasonableness, the passing score is established.

is an interesting passage.

#34 IlPadrino

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 04:33 PM

I was reading up on equating and found a straight-forward explanation and an interesting detail of one method.

On second thought, I think my quote "Do you have *ANY* evidence of this? I think you're wrong." was *WRONG* (I apologize to noleengineer!), but I still believe with enough fail diagnostics, a cut score can be estimated within a point or two.




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