41 replies to this topic

[GDIklz]

Here are some questions I have for you engineers. Thanks for your participation! Feel free to elaborate on any of your answers.

Edited by GDIklz, 28 January 2011 - 11:44 PM.

[Supe]

Did the school(s) you attended have any significant impact on where you are in your career today and where you will go?


Yes - But it was a "no name" school that had an exceptionally real-world attitude towards my field (Welding Engineering), and it helped my career tremendously. I had multiple offers from very large EPC firms, make more financially than I'd ever have dreamed with for my age/experience level, love going to work, and get to play across multiple industries (a lot of Fossil power, a lot of Nuclear power, and some Petrochem). In contrast, the "big name" school that has a reputation for excelling in this field (where I started, but transferred from), is excelling in producing research-oriented professionals, but stinkers in construction due to a lack of practical knowledge and an unwillingness to get their hands dirty. While I hope to get my Master's from that school, there isn't a day where I think leaving it was a poor decision.

[Freon]

I always screw up the analysis of these pols; My degrees and in Chemical and Electrical Engineering, PE is Electrical, I work in the Petroleum Industry, but my job description is more "General Project Engineering/Management". Let's just say I do alot of engineering shit.

[benbo]

Did I pass? What's the cut score?

[benbo]

U

Did I pass? What's the cut score?

56. But i have no idea if its %, /80, or if its measured in board-ft. The important part is whether you studied for it.

Yeah, but why isn't Architectural Engineering listed as a separate specialty? It looks like it's included in the "other" category. Or I guess AEs can just check off every box..

[GDIklz]

Sorry Benbo for not putting Architectural Engineering as an option
To those of you that have a master's degree: does your higher degree give you a serious edge in the work force? Is it necessary for engineers to get their master's degree?

[solomonb]

In today's fast changing world of technology, the Master's degree is going to give you a substantial leg up on staying current with new technology and changes in the profession. You ability to think more critically, analyze more complex problems and be able to successfully integrate that information synergistically is more important today than ever before. Get into the best Master's program you can--an MBA can be useful, however, if the school is not one of the top 20 MBA schools, forget it-- the degree is not worth anything. If you are not going to get a technical Master's-- get a good "soft skills" degree. You will never regret it.

[navyasw02]

In today's fast changing world of technology, the Master's degree is going to give you a substantial leg up on staying current with new technology and changes in the profession. You ability to think more critically, analyze more complex problems and be able to successfully integrate that information synergistically is more important today than ever before. Get into the best Master's program you can--an MBA can be useful, however, if the school is not one of the top 20 MBA schools, forget it-- the degree is not worth anything. If you are not going to get a technical Master's-- get a good "soft skills" degree. You will never regret it.

I disagree with almost all of the above. A masters didn't help me think critically one bit. If you are already a problem solver by nature, it just gives you a bit more advanced knowledge. Also this whole MBA top 20 thing is a myth made up by elitists to justify their degrees. First, what schools are in the top 20 anyway? We all know roughly the top handful, but anything else is a swag. Someone's got to come in 13th, hell, someone's got to come in 21st. Second, only the top ones (ie top handful) will provide that kind of social networking power you're referring to. Third, just because you have one of the top schools on your resume doesn't mean jack if you're an idiot. Fourth, the skills you obtain from an MBA will be useful regardless whether you got it from a school ranked #1 or #48. You'll forget the nitty gritty details that differentiate the programs as soon as you cross the stage to get your diploma.

[benbo]

First, what schools are in the top 20 anyway? We all know roughly the top handful, but anything else is a swag. Someone's got to come in 13th, hell, someone's got to come in 21st. Second, only the top ones (ie top handful) will provide that kind of social networking power you're referring to. Third, just because you have one of the top schools on your resume doesn't mean jack if you're an idiot. Fourth, the skills you obtain from an MBA will be useful regardless whether you got it from a school ranked #1 or #48. You'll forget the nitty gritty details that differentiate the programs as soon as you cross the stage to get your diploma.

Well the concept of top 20 is sort of artificial, but for business and law I think it does matter somewhat where you went to school - at least for a first job.

I got an MS in Information Systems. Where I went to school you basically took the same curriculum as an MBA and then decided if you wanted an MBA or MS. I got it at Cal State Fullerton. I don't think my degree would have opened any doors for me like a degree from Wharton or Stanford or someplace like that. I also think the credential would have been somewhat more valuable had I received it from UCLA. It's not an exact science, but one way to rank them is to look at starting asalaries for new graduates. Granted, there is sort of a "which came first" problem here. You generally have to be a pretty high end student to attend Harvard Business School, so HBS grads are likely to do better than a grad from my buisness program.

That said, I believe that I learned some valuable stuff getting the degree, and more than that it was fun. I would do it all over again. But if you're only looking at it from a financial perpective, IMO where you go matters more for B School or Law School than it does for Engineering schooI. 'm talking about the credential only, and mainly for entry level or lower level jobs . Frankly, I think after a while your work experiemce is far more important than your education.

[Freon]

I have a good friend that was sold a bill of goods on a "MBA" package. He was on active duty, living in Northern VA and he decided to go for some advanced learning to prepare himself for hanging up the uniform. He shopped around and found a great deal. A masters program in business that was half the cost and half the course load of the program that Univ of Virginia sponsered Working Professional MBA program near his home. He gave them a good pile of cash, burned through his tutition assistance and most of his GI Bill, and was awarded...wait for it.....a Master of Arts in General Business (or something like that) from Bill & Teds Most Excellent University (or something like that). He went to a headhunter who specialized in placing retired senior officers and their resume consultant flat out told him not to bother putting that down as an advanced degree.

The moral(s) of the story:
1) Know what you are buying
2) There is no such thing as a cheap MBA program that is worth a damn
3) For MBAs, school does matter. Elite private schools are great. An MBA from ANY first tier state university is good. (Some are better than others, but none are bad).
4) Do your research before you commit to a private school you never heard of before.


Freon, the Anti-Ozone

[navyasw02]

benbo - I think you're saying a lot of what I'm saying, but it also applies to all schools not just business. A guy with an engineering degree from MIT will probably get hired on his first job before the guy with the same degree from South East Northern State University. Business school wise, once you rattle off Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, Kellogg, then you get to the gray area of who's next. Those top 4 are the ones that will get those doors open for you on your first job after you get it, maybe even a few down the road, but after a while your performance will still balance out having a Gucci degree.

Freon - It sounds like your friend didnt do as much homework as he should have. In my previous post, I should have stated that it is important to get an accredited degree which it sounds like your friend didnt have. My wife was looking for online MBA programs because we're moving around a lot and I told her anything that wasnt AACSB accredited wasn't worth attending for exactly the reason you're describing. All the schools she applied to are tier 1 and it basically came down to which program worked best for her interests and needs, not whether one was ranked 12 spots higher than another on an arbitrary list.

[benbo]

benbo - I think you're saying a lot of what I'm saying, but it also applies to all schools not just business. A guy with an engineering degree from MIT will probably get hired on his first job before the guy with the same degree from South East Northern State University.

I don't think wew totally disagree.

I do think it matters a lot more for business school, because buisness school degrees can be a dime a dozen. I know lot's of people with business degrees and MBAs, as well as law school degrees from PoDunk U that are unemployed, underemployed, or working out of thieir field. I don't know that many unemplyed people with ABET accredited Engineeering degrees. In fact, I think I heard a statistic on TV that unemployment for degreed engineers was still between 2 and 3%.

Plus, I don't think a BSEE from MIT is going to get offered 100K plus right out of school any more than if they got the degree from Podunk U. Most engineers start out at pretty much the same pay scale. But many kids get 6 figure offers and bonuses right out of elite business schools. US News tracks this sort of stuff when they rank B Schools.

That said, I think having an upper crust MBA matters more if you want to work for Goldman Sacks or MacKinsey. If you just want to get in as a bean counter somewhere and work your way up the ranks at some company it doesn't matter as much. I mean, US News keeps statistics on the stuff. You can see the starting offers people get with upper crusty MBAs.

[navyasw02]

I do think it matters a lot more for business school, because buisness school degrees can be a dime a dozen. I know lot's of people with business degrees and MBAs, as well as law school degrees from PoDunk U that are unemployed, underemployed, or working out of thieir field. I don't know that many unemplyed people with ABET accredited Engineeering degrees. In fact, I think I heard a statistic on TV that unemployment for degreed engineers was still between 2 and 3%.

I think it's interesting you mention this. Within the last few months, I saw a webpage on WSJ.com (I think) that had profiles and blogs of unemployed MBAs, including some with upper crust diplomas.

Found it - http://blogs.wsj.com...d-looking-back/ biographies are on the right hand side of the page.

[Freon]

Navy,

You are right, my friend was an idiot. But that is why doing your research into the program and school is important. There are alot of "Schools", both on-line and brick-and-mortar, that are borderline fraudulent. A while back on this board I talked about a young man that I interviewed for a position as an electrical engineer. I wrote the job description, it said "BSEE from an ABET acredited university". The HR rep who set the interview up saw that he put on his resume "BSEE". But she did not look at the school. I saw "Devry Technical Institute" on the education section of the resume and explained to him that his education did not pass muster. He had a "technical degree", not an "BS in engineering".

Freon

[benbo]

I do think it matters a lot more for business school, because buisness school degrees can be a dime a dozen. I know lot's of people with business degrees and MBAs, as well as law school degrees from PoDunk U that are unemployed, underemployed, or working out of thieir field. I don't know that many unemplyed people with ABET accredited Engineeering degrees. In fact, I think I heard a statistic on TV that unemployment for degreed engineers was still between 2 and 3%.

I think it's interesting you mention this. Within the last few months, I saw a webpage on WSJ.com (I think) that had profiles and blogs of unemployed MBAs, including some with upper crust diplomas.

Found it - http://blogs.wsj.com...d-looking-back/ biographies are on the right hand side of the page.

Yeah, there are always examples like that. If it wasn't assumed to be so rare it wouldn't be noteworthy.

Obviously, I have no statistics on this. I base it on personal experience and stories from my 2nd favorite website - College Confidential - where people discuss this sort of thing all the time. But granted, that is sort of an elitist website.

Still, if my kid asked me -
I can go to MIT for engineering and incur $150K debt or go to Cal State and incur only $15K debt I'd probably always recommend Cal Poly.
If he said I can go to Wharton for an MBA and incur $150 K debt, or get that MBA from Cal State, I'd be more likely to tell him to consider the UPenn degree.

Interestingly, after I took my GMAT I got all sorts of letters from these hoity-toity schools inviting me to apply. Of course, given my undergrad GPA there was no way I would have considered applying, but even if I had a chance to get in, in my case it wasn't worth it since I was already working at a reasonable salary at a job I liked. But for a kid? I don't know.

[navyasw02]

Yeah, there are always examples like that. If it wasn't assumed to be so rare it wouldn't be noteworthy.

Obviously, I have no statistics on this. I base it on personal experience and stories from my 2nd favorite website - College Confidential - where people discuss this sort of thing all the time. But granted, that is sort of an elitist website.

Still, if my kid asked me -
I can go to MIT for engineering and incur $150K debt or go to Cal State and incur only $15K debt I'd probably always recommend Cal Poly.
If he said I can go to Wharton for an MBA and incur $150 K debt, or get that MBA from Cal State, I'd be more likely to tell him to consider the UPenn degree.

Interestingly, after I took my GMAT I got all sorts of letters from these hoity-toity schools inviting me to apply. Of course, given my undergrad GPA there was no way I would have considered applying, but even if I had a chance to get in, in my case it wasn't worth it since I was already working at a reasonable salary at a job I liked. But for a kid? I don't know.

I've tried quitting College Confidential, but it's like crack. To use Yogi Berra math, 90% of the people don't know what they're talking about on there, and the other half are asking about what those folks dont know.

I agree, debt vs school name is a huge factor, but have you looked at starting salaries of some of those schools? Just for giggles I looked at HBS and MIT grad salaries, and with the exception of those going into the financial sector, they're really not making that much considering the investment made at those schools. I'm wondering what the long term statistics are, I havent seen anything like that published.

[benbo]

I've tried quitting College Confidential, but it's like crack. To use Yogi Berra math, 90% of the people don't know what they're talking about on there, and the other half are asking about what those folks dont know.

Yeah, that's probably true. I'm glad there wasn't such a thing when I was a kid applying to school. To read that website you would think a 2400 SAT is below the median.

[Dleg]

We've got a recent MIT grad making about $35k here.... It doesn't do you any good to go to a big-name school if your ambitions are to move back home and stay there, taking whatever job you can get.

[Supe]

We've got a recent MIT grad making about $35k here.... It doesn't do you any good to go to a big-name school if your ambitions are to move back home and stay there, taking whatever job you can get.

After a stint at MIT, that's about all you can afford.

[navyasw02]

We've got a recent MIT grad making about $35k here.... It doesn't do you any good to go to a big-name school if your ambitions are to move back home and stay there, taking whatever job you can get.

After a stint at MIT, that's about all you can afford.

The guy probably has a degree in English from MIT (Who does that?!?!?)

[Dleg]

I'm finding the poll results interesting, especially the large number of people responding that passing the PE (or FE) exam did not have any positive effect on their career.

Seriously? I did not get a raise when I passed the PE, but it really did change everything in terms of respect, doors opened, jobs offered, etc. My PE license has been the best thing I have ever done for my career, aside from performing the work itself.

[navyasw02]

I'm finding the poll results interesting, especially the large number of people responding that passing the PE (or FE) exam did not have any positive effect on their career.

Seriously? I did not get a raise when I passed the PE, but it really did change everything in terms of respect, doors opened, jobs offered, etc. My PE license has been the best thing I have ever done for my career, aside from performing the work itself.

I think there needs to be a subquestion on that asking if you work in an exempt field. Being military I dont need a PE and I dont get any career benefits for getting my PE. I did it for myself so I can feel that I can work in the engineering field and legitimately call myself an engineer. That's not to say that non PE's aren't engineers, but I feel that being a non licensed PE is similar (but not quite equal) to being a lawyer or doctor without a license.

[cableguy]

I can only think of one engineer in my company (of 400+ employees) that has a masters' degree. So it's not valued here at all IMO. And I think that's sad.

I've contemplated getting mine, something like Engineering Management. But there'd be no payback with my company, and I really don't want to relocate (Waco isn't exactly a hub for jobs for utility Power EE's). Most (decent, real, credible) programs cost around $800-$1000 per credit hour, and my company reimburses up to $2250 per year. Do the math...

I'd have responded completely different to this survey 6 months ago. Started a new job in August, it really put wind back in my sails. I was getting a bit bored, not learning a lot, not real enthusiastic... now I can't wait to get to work again and learn something new daily. It was good to change directions a bit in my career.

[GDIklz]

So can a simple job swap within your profession refresh your interest and reduce stagnation?

[Dleg]

^Absolutely. I am in the process of changing jobs, and I can't hardly believe how excited I am to be starting on something else, even though I know I'm going from a job I could do with one hand tied behind my back, 2 hours a week, to one that I am going to have to be putting in 60 hour weeks just to get up to speed.

I'm finding the poll results interesting, especially the large number of people responding that passing the PE (or FE) exam did not have any positive effect on their career.

Seriously? I did not get a raise when I passed the PE, but it really did change everything in terms of respect, doors opened, jobs offered, etc. My PE license has been the best thing I have ever done for my career, aside from performing the work itself.

I think there needs to be a subquestion on that asking if you work in an exempt field. Being military I dont need a PE and I dont get any career benefits for getting my PE. I did it for myself so I can feel that I can work in the engineering field and legitimately call myself an engineer. That's not to say that non PE's aren't engineers, but I feel that being a non licensed PE is similar (but not quite equal) to being a lawyer or doctor without a license.

I wouldn't say that at all. You may not see it now, but I can tell you for sure that when anyone from the military tells me they were an "engineer" I automatically doubt them. I have run into several former military "engineers" who turned out to not even have degrees, but some sort of job title that made them engineers. You put PE after your name, all doubt is removed, and you get automatic respect (doubled, really, because of the military service).

[cableguy]

^Absolutely. I am in the process of changing jobs, and I can't hardly believe how excited I am to be starting on something else, even though I know I'm going from a job I could do with one hand tied behind my back, 2 hours a week, to one that I am going to have to be putting in 60 hour weeks just to get up to speed.

100%. I was good at my old job (SCADA engineer). So good I had plenty of time on my hands that frequently, I'd get kinda bored and have to find stuff to do. That was OK for a while. But it wasn't leading me anywhere career wise. My boss was about 5 years older than me, so no real chance for promotion in to his position. Plus I was separated from the main part of the company, tucked away in an outlying building.

Now I moved in to substation electrical design department. Mainstream engineering at our company. It's different from what I was doing, but not far removed (I had to look at substation design prints in the old job). Now I'm the one designing the prints. Doing the relay settings. Looking at fault records. Learning all kinds of new tricks. I'm mid-career (40), and it's been a very refreshing change. I'm up to my neck in work and really enjoying it. Still walking out the door at 5pm though.

[navyasw02]

I'm finding the poll results interesting, especially the large number of people responding that passing the PE (or FE) exam did not have any positive effect on their career.

Seriously? I did not get a raise when I passed the PE, but it really did change everything in terms of respect, doors opened, jobs offered, etc. My PE license has been the best thing I have ever done for my career, aside from performing the work itself.

I think there needs to be a subquestion on that asking if you work in an exempt field. Being military I dont need a PE and I dont get any career benefits for getting my PE. I did it for myself so I can feel that I can work in the engineering field and legitimately call myself an engineer. That's not to say that non PE's aren't engineers, but I feel that being a non licensed PE is similar (but not quite equal) to being a lawyer or doctor without a license.

I wouldn't say that at all. You may not see it now, but I can tell you for sure that when anyone from the military tells me they were an "engineer" I automatically doubt them. I have run into several former military "engineers" who turned out to not even have degrees, but some sort of job title that made them engineers. You put PE after your name, all doubt is removed, and you get automatic respect (doubled, really, because of the military service).

I know what you mean. Every ship has an engineer who could be an english major who just happens to have that job. It doesn't mean he turns wrenches and designs or repairs things, but he's in charge of the folks that maintain the propulsion system. I'm not saying that's an easy job because it's not and it's the most important one to get the ship underway, but you can have absolutely previous formal education on engineering principles and still be very competent in that job.

My case is a little different, I'm an Engineering Duty Officer (EDO) which is actual engineering from ship maintenance and repair to new construction. The Navy even sends me to grad school for a MS in engineering. My perspective of military engineer is different from what you're talking about because I've shifted mindsets a bit when I transitioned from submarines into EDO.

Edit: Navy shipboard engineering is surprisingly limited in what ship's company can do. To be honest, most mechanics are really plumbers. Ship's maintenance for steam plants is basically valve repacking, pump maintenance, and things like that. More and more things are subcontracted to outside maintenance techs or primary vendors such as any kind of reduction gear maintenance. It's not like the WWII movies where guys can go back and make a part and save the ship.

[Dleg]

^I'm not even sure what I'm talking about. In both cases I know of, the guys claiming to be engineers were enlisted guys in the Army, and were portraying themselves as "engineers" in the civilian world, years after getting out. One got himself and his program in a bit of trouble with the federal funding agencies that supported them, once they found out he was not, in fact, a degreed engineer. Had to leave the job, in fact. Last I heard, he is still calling himself an engineer, but for a private construction firm.

[navyasw02]

^I'm not even sure what I'm talking about. In both cases I know of, the guys claiming to be engineers were enlisted guys in the Army, and were portraying themselves as "engineers" in the civilian world, years after getting out. One got himself and his program in a bit of trouble with the federal funding agencies that supported them, once they found out he was not, in fact, a degreed engineer. Had to leave the job, in fact. Last I heard, he is still calling himself an engineer, but for a private construction firm.

I dont know much about Army engineering. I'm guessing since he didnt have a degree he was either the equivalent of a Mechanic or a Construction worker on civil engineering projects.

The Navy is a little better with that at least. I dont think you'd find anybody other than an officer calling themselves an engineer based on what I described before. If you do and they're not officers, they're immediately full of shit. On the nuclear side, officers get substantial training. First there's a 6 month nuclear power school which is classroom based watered down engineering that is shot through a firehose, then another 6 months of learning how to stand watch on a real reactor plant, then a few years on a boat qualifying and standing watch, then a four hour written exam and oral exams with the Navy's nuclear power office. At the end you've got a guy who is certified by the Navy and DOE.

[benbo]

I dont know much about Army engineering.

I know absolutely zero about anything military. But I do know in Full Metal Jacket the DI said that engineers went out and looked for mines. I think that was the Marine Corps, and something tells me the movie was probably not exactly 100% accurate.

[Dleg]

SapperPE should know the answer, and also what jobs these guys may have had in the Army, that apparently led them to believe they were engineers, in the same sense that we are engineers.

[Freon]

I lived this on the inside. Navy CEC officers, the Seabees are almost all degreed engineers. (David Robinson, the basket player, is a notable exception - He was a math major at USNA.) I was in a meeting with our "Corps-Level Engineer Officer", a English Major from a school with two cardinal directions in it's name. He had a grand plan to provide electricity to a town in Iraq and he summonded the Navy Captain who ran the Mobile Construction Regiment to get the plan started. (The Navy Captain was a PE in Civil Engineering.) The Chief of Staff for the Corps-level command asked me to sit in on the meeting, and my boss OKed it. After the "Engineer Officer" laid out his plan I told him it would not work and it was unsafe. He responded by telling me I did not know what I was talking about and he was the General's "expert" on engineeering matters. Then I handed my PE card to the Navy Captain, who handed it to the "Engineer officer" and stated "I ain't building that. Major Freon has the highest electrical engineering creditentials in this command. We'll get together and design something that will work." I am not on the "Engineer Officer's" Christmas card list. He also was sent home a month later after another run in with the good SeaBee Captain.

Navy ASW, are you at NPS?

[navyasw02]

I lived this on the inside. Navy CEC officers, the Seabees are almost all degreed engineers. (David Robinson, the basket player, is a notable exception - He was a math major at USNA.) I was in a meeting with our "Corps-Level Engineer Officer", a English Major from a school with two cardinal directions in it's name. He had a grand plan to provide electricity to a town in Iraq and he summonded the Navy Captain who ran the Mobile Construction Regiment to get the plan started. (The Navy Captain was a PE in Civil Engineering.) The Chief of Staff for the Corps-level command asked me to sit in on the meeting, and my boss OKed it. After the "Engineer Officer" laid out his plan I told him it would not work and it was unsafe. He responded by telling me I did not kinow what I was talking about and he was the General's "expert" on engineeering matters. Then I handed my PE card to the Navy Captain, who handed it to the "Engineer officer" and stated "I ain't building that. Major Freon has the highest electrical engineering creditentials in this command. We'll get together and design something that will work." I am not on the "Engineer Officer's" Christmas card list. He also was sent home a month later after another run in with the good SeaBee Captain.

Navy ASW, are you at NPS?

Yes, at NPS, for a few more weeks anyway.

[Freon]

I graduated in 97 from the EE program. Are you in the TSSE program? I am still the only Marine to complete it.

[navyasw02]

I graduated in 97 from the EE program. Are you in the TSSE program? I am still the only Marine to complete it.

Cool, we dont have many Marines go through the engineering dept. I'm doing TSSE and it is probably a lot different than when you did it. Its supposed to be a good mix of technical majors, but it is now mostly MEs with a few SE guys and no EEs at all in recent years.

[Freon]

If you see Bob Ashton, ask him about "The Beast of Bullard Hall".

I was on the '96 project, my interest was more on land equipment, but a smooth-talking Professor hooked me. It was a great experience.

[Boomer01 PE]

Voted. A lot of Civil Engineers on this site.

[Peele1]

Navy,

You are right, my friend was an idiot. But that is why doing your research into the program and school is important. There are alot of "Schools", both on-line and brick-and-mortar, that are borderline fraudulent. A while back on this board I talked about a young man that I interviewed for a position as an electrical engineer. I wrote the job description, it said "BSEE from an ABET acredited university". The HR rep who set the interview up saw that he put on his resume "BSEE". But she did not look at the school. I saw "Devry Technical Institute" on the education section of the resume and explained to him that his education did not pass muster. He had a "technical degree", not an "BS in engineering".

Freon

I agree with you completely, and want to add that If you are looking for a technical degree type person, Devry is a good school for what it offers.